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Inspiration

What Are You Willing to Be Disliked For?

Ten Percent Happier
Ten Percent Happier
Nov 9, 2026
8 min de lecture

Source : 10% Happier

À regarder · 7

Most people chase the wrong question. They spend their lives asking what they want—more money, more friends, more popularity, a nicer house—without ever asking the harder thing: what are they willing to sacrifice to get it? That inversion, according to author Mark Manson, is the heuristic that changes everything. It's not a question of optimism or pessimism, ambition or resignation. It's the clarifying filter that reveals who you actually are, underneath the aspirational noise.

Lecture · 9 sections

The Trojan Horse Theory of Values

The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck, Manson's 2016 debut, sold over 20 million copies—a fact that still surprises people who assume the book is a straight nihilistic burnout manual. It isn't. As Manson explains, the irreverent title was a strategic choice: "I I like to joke that The Subtle Art is it's kind of a Trojan horse for a book about values. Like I wanted to write a book about values and and people's prioritizations in in life and how important those things are, but I kind of felt like nobody would actually go buy a book about values and prioritization."

The core premise is deceptively simple. You cannot actually not care about anything. Even the attempt to care about nothing is itself a form of care. We are, as Manson puts it, "stuck in this like cosmic loop of of having to direct our our attention and focus on on something in our environment, no matter where we are or what the situation is." The real work, then, is ruthlessly honest triage: what is actually worth giving a f*ck about?

The Heuristic That Changes Everything

Most self-help frameworks ask you to visualize the benefits you want. Dream bigger. Picture success. Manson inverts this. Instead, he asks people to focus on the problems and struggles they are willing to have—and, oddly, secretly enjoy having.

"Everything in life involves a trade-off," he notes. "It's easy to want to be popular. It's easy to want to make more money. We all want those things. But the question is, what are we willing to give up for those things? Like that is actually the question that determines what our values are and who we are as individuals."

This reframing is powerful because it moves the conversation from fantasy to reality. Fantasies are cheap. Everyone wants to be liked, successful, and wealthy. But the person who is willing to work nights for a decade to build something? The person who can tolerate being misunderstood or unpopular because they believe in something? That person has revealed their actual values through their suffering, not their daydreams.

What Are You Willing to Be Disliked For?

From that principle flows a more pointed question: What are you willing to be disliked for? This is not a rhetorical flourish. Manson treats it as a diagnostic tool. "People ask me all the time, how do I stop caring what other people think? And my answer my first answer is is always, well what are you willing to be disliked for? And if you And if you can't answer that question easily, then that's a problem."

The problem is not that you care what others think—that's human, even desirable in moderation. The problem is that you have no clear answer to what belief or value is worth the social cost. You're drifting, being buffeted by every opinion, every trend, every algorithm's preference. You haven't actually committed to anything.

Writer and Harvard Kennedy School fellow Arthur Brooks has a related question: What would you die for? Manson acknowledges its power. "It's a very short list for for most people and and I think it's I think it's the sort of thing that we all have to dig very deep and think think very deeply about um to even find an answer to that."

For Manson, the answer begins with his wife. Beyond that, he admits to uncertainty about beliefs—the more abstract, ideological commitments that might require ultimate sacrifice. But he is certain about beliefs worth being disliked for: "I already am." Running podcasts, making videos, posting online weekly means dealing with criticism and hatred as a structural condition of the work. That clarity—knowing what you're willing to endure—becomes a filter that protects your attention from everything else.

The Day Twenty Million Books Broke His Brain

Manson's own experience with sudden, massive success offers a cautionary study in hedonic adaptation. When The Subtle Art went viral and then stratospheric, something in his psychology ruptured. The human mind, he observes, is calibrated for incremental progress: "I think the human mind is is really primed for kind of a slow, compounding growth over time. Like what whether you're adopting a new skill or becoming more confident, you know, starting a new career. I think the mind is kind of just default setting is that everything should get like 5 to 10% better every single year."

Then: "And then when something comes along and it gets 10,000% better within 6 months, like something in your brain just kind of breaks."

The result was imposter syndrome, a strange cognitive dissonance. He'd written something good, yes, but did he deserve all of this? Success that violates the brain's expectation of growth becomes not celebratory but destabilizing—a gap between achievement and the felt sense of deserving. The hedonic treadmill kicked in: the extraordinary became ordinary, the milestone became the new baseline, and the dopamine faded. He watched friends experience similar cycles with marriage, children, house upgrades—each milestone promising fulfillment, each one eventually normalizing into the background.

Social Comparison: Why TikTok's Algorithm Is Not Your Friend

The post-social-media era has made the question of what's worth caring about exponentially harder. One culprit: social comparison is literally wired into human neurology. Researchers call it the "sociometer"—an evolved mechanism that constantly compares your status, appearance, and worth against others. It's ancient hardware running on modern software.

"Comparison is the thief of joy," the saying goes. But on platforms like TikTok, comparison isn't incidental—it's the business model. The For You Page isn't social so much as it is media. It feeds you an endless stream of humans who are statistically more beautiful, more successful, more admired. The comparison is no longer peer-to-peer (you vs. your classmate) but you versus an algorithmic infinite mirror of human achievement and attractiveness.

Manson notes how this has scrambled our information diet. "Information silos" form when algorithms learn not what you need to know but what will keep you watching. The trade-off social media made was stark: infinite connection, yes, but at the cost of exposure to people's unfiltered lives—which paradoxically makes comparison more vicious because you're comparing your behind-the-scenes to everyone else's highlight reel, curated by an algorithm that profits from your envy.

Good Comparison vs. Bad Comparison

Not all comparison is toxic. Role models—people who embody values you aspire to—can clarify and inspire. The problem arises when comparison becomes about money, status, or beauty: things that are either zero-sum (if someone else has it, you have less) or externally validated (your worth is contingent on others' judgment). That comparison activates the sociometer in a way that creates perpetual inadequacy.

The antidote is clarity about values. If you know what you're willing to sacrifice for, what you're willing to be disliked for, then you have an internal gyroscope. The algorithm loses its grip. The infinite feed of other people's lives becomes background noise rather than a measuring stick.

Confidence Is the Wrong Question

Manson takes a contrarian stance on a perennial question: how do I become more confident? The question itself, he suggests, is misframed. Confidence is often understood as a feeling—a state of certainty and self-assurance. But that's not how it works in practice. Confidence is a byproduct of clarity about values and the willingness to act on them despite uncertainty, despite dislike, despite risk.

A con man—the term originally meant "confidence man"—was someone who sold you on a false version of himself. The irony is that actual confidence, the durable kind, isn't about selling anyone on anything. It's about knowing what you care about and being willing to lose the people who don't share those values.

The Time Audit and the Values Gap

There's often a chasm between the values people claim and the way they spend their time. A time audit—a ruthless accounting of where your hours actually go—reveals this gap. You say family is your top value, but you work sixty hours a week. You claim creativity matters, but you scroll TikTok for three hours daily. The time audit doesn't judge; it simply shows the truth. And from that truth, you can either change your behavior or be honest that your stated values aren't actually your values.

This is where the book's philosophy intersects with practical life. The question "What are you willing to give a f*ck about?" isn't theoretical. It demands that you look at your calendar, your bank statements, your social media history. It demands that you answer not what you wish you valued, but what your choices reveal you actually value.

Where to go from here

Start small. Pick one area—work, relationships, creativity, health—and ask yourself: What struggles am I willing to have here? What outcome am I willing to sacrifice for? What am I willing to be disliked for? Don't aim for heroic answers. Just honest ones. Then look at your time and money over the past month. Are they aligned with your answer? If not, something has to give: either your stated value or your behavior. That conversation between intention and action is where real change begins.

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Transcript

[0:04] Hello everybody. Welcome to the 10%

[0:05] Happier podcast. I'm your host Dan

[0:07] Harris. Today we're going to talk about

[0:08] a bunch of things that are of perennial

[0:11] and urgent interest to me, like how to

[0:14] be more confident, how to spend less

[0:17] time comparing yourself to other people,

[0:18] and how selectively and wisely

[0:22] to give fewer [ __ ]

[0:23] Uh my guest today is Mark Manson, author

[0:26] of several books including the

[0:28] thunderously popular The Subtle Art of

[0:31] Not Giving a [ __ ] one of the great book

[0:33] titles of all time. Fun fact, uh Mark's

[0:36] books have sold over 20 million copies,

[0:39] but he's not just a writer, he also has

[0:40] a great YouTube page where he makes

[0:42] these really high quality and very very

[0:44] interesting uh videos. And he's got a

[0:47] podcast called Solved with Mark Manson.

[0:50] Mark Manson, thanks for coming on the

[0:52] show.

[0:52] >> It's my pleasure. Thank you for having

[0:54] me.

[0:54] >> I was saying this beforehand, it's like

[0:56] this is one of perhaps the worst acts of

[0:59] podcast host malpractice I've ever

[1:01] committed that I've had [laughter] this

[1:03] show for more than 10 years and this is

[1:05] the first time you're on it.

[1:06] >> Better late than ever.

[1:07] >> Okay. I [laughter] appreciate your

[1:09] your forgiveness. All right, so let me

[1:11] let me start with The Subtle Art of Not

[1:13] Giving a [ __ ] which again is one of the

[1:15] best um book titles ever.

[1:17] >> Thank you.

[1:17] >> It it would be very easy to dismiss this

[1:21] as like a kind of nihilistic Sure.

[1:23] sentiment, but that is not at all what

[1:25] you're pointing at here. So, can you

[1:27] hold forth on what you really mean?

[1:29] >> Sure. Um I I I like to joke that The

[1:32] Subtle Art is

[1:34] it's kind of a Trojan horse for a book

[1:35] about values. Like I wanted to write a

[1:37] book about values and and people's

[1:39] prioritizations in in life and how

[1:41] important those things are, but I kind

[1:43] of felt like nobody would actually go

[1:44] buy a book about values and

[1:45] prioritization. So, the whole not give a

[1:48] [ __ ] language is just a way to like

[1:50] smuggle those

[1:52] that philosophy into kind of a fun,

[1:54] irreverent romp of a book.

[1:57] Um but really at at its core, if you

[1:59] start reading the book chapter one, one

[2:01] of the first things I point out is that

[2:03] there actually is no such thing as not

[2:04] giving a [ __ ] You have to care about

[2:06] something. And even if you attempt to

[2:08] care about nothing, that in and of

[2:10] itself is caring about something. Right?

[2:13] So it's we're kind of stuck in this like

[2:16] cosmic loop of of having to direct our

[2:19] our attention and focus on on something

[2:22] in our environment, no matter where we

[2:24] are or what the situation is. So then

[2:26] the question becomes what is worth

[2:28] giving a [ __ ] about? And that is the

[2:31] question that

[2:33] A is I think perennially

[2:36] difficult and complicated. We all

[2:38] struggle with it. But I think also

[2:41] unique to our modern times, say the

[2:44] post-internet age or the post-social

[2:45] media age,

[2:48] I think it it has become extremely

[2:49] complicated to figure out what should we

[2:52] give a [ __ ] about. What is actually

[2:54] worth our time and attention and what is

[2:56] not. It I I think this is probably

[2:59] the most difficult time to figure that

[3:01] out

[3:02] in human history.

[3:03] >> So the subtle art

[3:05] >> Yes.

[3:06] >> is to know what is worth not giving a

[3:09] [ __ ] about so that you can focus on the

[3:11] things that are.

[3:13] >> Correct.

[3:14] >> Um and how like just for yourself

[3:17] >> Mhm.

[3:17] >> you're extremely busy uh member of Homo

[3:20] sapiens. Like so how how do you decide

[3:24] what's worth focusing on and what's not?

[3:27] >> So the chief heuristic that I I describe

[3:30] in the book is is to not focus so much

[3:34] on the benefits that you want in your

[3:36] life because that that's kind of our

[3:37] default approach to everything in our

[3:38] life, right? It's like what good feeling

[3:41] thing do I want? Do I want to make more

[3:43] money? Do I want to have more friends?

[3:45] Do I want to be more popular? Do I uh

[3:48] you know, want to fix up the house? Like

[3:50] what's the positive goal? And instead I

[3:52] I ask people to focus on actually the

[3:55] problems and struggles

[3:57] that they were are willing to have and

[3:59] that they are actually

[4:01] secretly kind of enjoy having.

[4:03] >> Hm.

[4:04] >> Because everything in life involves a

[4:06] trade-off, right? It's easy to want to

[4:08] be popular. It's easy to want to make

[4:09] more money.

[4:11] We all want those things. But the

[4:13] question is, what are we willing to give

[4:15] up for those things? Like that is

[4:17] actually the question that determines

[4:19] what our values are and who we are as

[4:22] individuals. It's almost this like

[4:24] negative

[4:26] way into the question of what is worth

[4:29] caring about. It's like well what what

[4:31] is worth sacrificing for? What am I

[4:32] willing to be disliked for? You know,

[4:34] people ask me all the time, how do I

[4:35] stop caring what other people think? And

[4:37] my answer my first answer is is always,

[4:39] well what are you willing to be disliked

[4:40] for? And if you And if you can't answer

[4:42] that question easily,

[4:44] then that's a problem.

[4:46] >> Arthur Brooks, the great writer and I

[4:49] think

[4:50] most recently of Harvard's Kennedy

[4:52] School, his little question is what

[4:54] would you die for?

[4:55] >> Right.

[4:56] >> And it's very clarifying.

[4:57] >> Yeah.

[4:59] It yeah and it's a

[5:00] very short list for for most people and

[5:02] and I think it's I think it's the sort

[5:04] of thing that we all have to dig very

[5:06] deep and think think very deeply about

[5:09] um to even find an answer to that.

[5:11] >> What's on your list?

[5:12] >> I mean my wife is the first thing that

[5:14] comes to mind. I'm I'm the things I'm

[5:15] waffling on are are some some of the the

[5:17] other associations. Do I have any

[5:19] beliefs I would die for? I'm like that

[5:22] that I would have to sit with for a long

[5:23] time.

[5:24] >> Hm.

[5:25] Hm.

[5:25] >> I mean I'd like to say yes, but you

[5:27] know, it would it would feel very heroic

[5:29] to say yes, but

[5:30] >> Are there beliefs that you're willing to

[5:32] be disliked for?

[5:33] >> Oh yeah. I already am.

[5:35] >> [laughter]

[5:35] >> Say more.

[5:37] >> [gasps]

[5:37] >> I mean like you, you know, I'm I'm I'm

[5:40] recording podcasts, I'm in videos every

[5:42] week, I'm posting stuff online all the

[5:43] time. So it it's you know, you know, it

[5:45] it part of our job description is uh

[5:49] haters. So you and I are in are in a

[5:51] position in that just through the act of

[5:54] our work, we are forced to think about

[5:56] what we're willing to be disliked for.

[5:58] Like what stance we're willing to take

[5:59] or what beliefs are important enough to

[6:01] us to deal with, you know, the comment

[6:03] section. That is kind of a clarifying

[6:05] filter, but I think if if people, you

[6:08] you know, going about their day-to-day

[6:09] life, it's probably not something they

[6:10] think about very often.

[6:11] >> Are there

[6:13] things that you know you shouldn't give

[6:16] a [ __ ] about, but you do anyway, and

[6:19] it's therefore a struggle for you?

[6:20] >> Yeah, I I think, you know, all of kind

[6:23] of the superficial, materialistic things

[6:27] I struggle with at times. I think as

[6:29] everybody does. I generally think I'm on

[6:31] the right side of of deep prioritizing

[6:33] them, but

[6:35] I I do think sometimes I I I have a

[6:37] tendency to be a workaholic, and I have

[6:40] a tendency I'm very competitive. So,

[6:42] like when I have a goal or some sort of

[6:44] metric I'm trying to hit, I get

[6:46] extremely

[6:48] wrapped up in it. Mhm. Sometimes to the

[6:50] point where it where it backfires a

[6:52] little bit.

[6:52] >> What did it do to your brain to have a

[6:55] book that was that successful? I mean, I

[6:57] know you there's this stat that you've

[6:59] sold more than 20 million

[7:01] >> Mhm.

[7:01] >> copies. I would imagine 19.5 of those

[7:05] millions were of The Subtle Art.

[7:09] >> Yeah. I think the human mind is is

[7:11] really primed for kind of a slow,

[7:14] compounding growth over time. Like what

[7:17] whether you're adopting a new skill or

[7:20] becoming more confident, you know,

[7:22] starting a new career.

[7:23] I think the mind is kind of just

[7:25] default setting is that everything

[7:28] should get like 5 to 10% better every

[7:30] single year.

[7:30] >> Mhm.

[7:31] >> And and then when something comes along

[7:33] and it gets 10,000% better

[7:37] within 6 months,

[7:39] like something in your brain just kind

[7:40] of breaks. And I I I really struggled

[7:44] with like for a while I struggled with

[7:46] the feeling of like

[7:47] is this just luck? Like do I deserve

[7:50] this? So, there was this weird period of

[7:53] like imposter syndrome, I guess I would

[7:55] say, of of just like, okay, yeah, this

[7:57] you know,

[7:58] I did a good thing, but it's like

[8:00] I don't think I deserve all this.

[8:02] >> You know of this concept hedonic

[8:04] adaptation?

[8:05] >> Yes.

[8:06] >> Where we something good, new, and good

[8:08] happens in our life and we're super

[8:10] excited about it for

[8:12] 45 seconds and then we just bake it into

[8:15] our baseline expectations.

[8:17] >> Right.

[8:17] >> And if you experience a career dip or

[8:21] some project you're working on isn't

[8:22] going as well as you thought like

[8:24] how do you handle that especially in

[8:26] light of what you went through?

[8:28] >> It was interesting. So I did a follow-up

[8:30] book called Everything Is [ __ ] A Book

[8:31] About Hope and and the whole process of

[8:34] doing that book it it was one of the

[8:36] hardest projects I think I've ever done

[8:38] in my life and and most of that is

[8:40] because the whole time I was doing it

[8:44] I knew it was going to feel like a

[8:46] failure no matter what happened.

[8:48] >> [laughter]

[8:48] >> I mean it debuted number one on the

[8:50] Times list and then it quickly fell off

[8:52] and I was like, well, it fell off after,

[8:54] you know, six weeks so like

[8:56] it failed which is absurd. It's like

[8:59] completely this is this is like such a

[9:01] champagne problem.

[9:03] But it coming back to just the the

[9:05] brutal reality of the hedonic treadmill,

[9:08] you can objectively know that it's not

[9:10] true but it still feels that way.

[9:12] >> You put your finger on something I think

[9:13] that we all struggle with aside from the

[9:15] hedonic treadmill

[9:17] which is expectations.

[9:19] >> Yeah.

[9:19] >> And yeah, like if it it it expectations

[9:24] can [ __ ] up everything.

[9:25] >> Yeah.

[9:26] Yeah.

[9:27] And it's

[9:28] I think the same concept can be applied

[9:31] to people's daily lives. Like for

[9:32] example

[9:34] I've observed a number of couples like

[9:37] friends in my in my life that they're

[9:39] struggling through through the

[9:40] relationship so they decide to get

[9:42] married and that and then the marriage

[9:43] is this huge peak experience

[9:46] and they think that's going to fix it,

[9:47] right? But then it just sets the

[9:49] expectations at this new level.

[9:51] And so they're even more disappointed

[9:53] afterwards and then they're like, well,

[9:54] maybe we should

[9:55] buy a house together. That'll fix it,

[9:57] right? And then it's the they go like

[9:59] take out this huge mortgage and buy a

[10:00] house and it's like for three months

[10:02] they're ecstatic and everything's

[10:04] amazing and they're decorating together.

[10:06] And then that becomes normal and then

[10:08] the disappointment hits again and it's

[10:10] even more painful that time. And then

[10:11] they're like, "Well, maybe we should

[10:12] have a kid." And then it's, you know,

[10:14] it's like, "Oh boy, here we go with

[10:16] that." And it's a game that our brain

[10:18] plays with us

[10:19] consistently of like, "If I just have X,

[10:23] then I'll be happy. If I just have Y,

[10:25] then I'll be happy." I I think there's a

[10:27] very fundamental

[10:30] evolutionary reason for it. It It's It's

[10:32] what's kept our species striving and

[10:35] propagating for so long.

[10:37] But this is why I come back to that

[10:38] heuristic of like, "Okay,

[10:40] it's easy for us all to like think of

[10:43] the thing that's we think is going to

[10:44] make us happy, but what are you willing

[10:46] to struggle for? What is the sacrifice

[10:48] you're willing to have in your life?

[10:51] Because that is actually the more

[10:52] accurate metric of what you should be

[10:55] doing."

[10:57] >> One of the most potent and persistent

[10:58] sources of suffering in my life is this

[11:01] constant or seemingly constant toppling

[11:04] forward into the next moment. Nothing

[11:06] that's happening right now quite does it

[11:08] for me. And so I'm just kind of reaching

[11:10] for that next thing over and over as my

[11:12] long-time meditation teacher Joseph

[11:14] Goldstein likes to ask people, "How many

[11:17] slices of pizza have you eaten? How many

[11:18] parties have you attended? How many

[11:20] promotions have you received? And are

[11:21] you done?" Of course not. We are

[11:23] insatiable. And in this way, the pursuit

[11:26] of happiness can become the source of

[11:28] our unhappiness.

[11:30] The good news is that another of my

[11:32] favorite meditation teachers, Vinny

[11:34] Ferraro, a fan favorite in the 10%

[11:37] Happier cinematic universe, has just

[11:39] created a whole new batch of guided

[11:41] meditations

[11:42] to help you deal with this sense of

[11:44] insufficiency and get to what he calls

[11:47] enoughness. And these meditations are

[11:50] available over on my app, 10% with Dan

[11:52] Harris. And Vinny will be dropping them

[11:55] throughout the month of November. And on

[11:57] Tuesdays throughout the month of

[11:58] November, Vinny will be meditating with

[12:01] subscribers live and taking your

[12:03] questions. It's a a Vinny Ferraro

[12:05] festival in the month of November over

[12:07] on 10% with Dan Harris. Just to recap

[12:09] here, Vinny's new meditations drop every

[12:12] week in the month of November and you

[12:14] can join him live only in the 10% with

[12:17] Dan Harris app.

[12:19] This brings us to something I wanted to

[12:22] talk to you about before I

[12:25] say what that is, I want to set it up by

[12:27] mentioning

[12:28] or repeating what I mentioned in the

[12:30] intro which is that you have a podcast

[12:32] called Solved with Mark Manson and the

[12:35] conceit which is really funny is that

[12:38] instead of doing what I do which is I do

[12:41] I probably over the 10 years of this

[12:43] show have done 40 episodes on every

[12:46] problem you can think of. You do one

[12:48] episode is super long and you solve the

[12:51] problem

[12:52] >> [laughter]

[12:52] >> allegedly in

[12:54] yes

[12:54] >> problem

[12:55] >> in in the episode and you've done one

[12:58] recently on social comparison.

[12:59] >> Mhm.

[13:00] >> And one of the things you mentioned

[13:02] which I thought was really cool at the

[13:04] top of the episode is that you learned

[13:08] that your podcast was not doing the

[13:11] numbers you thought was reaching the

[13:13] audience you thought it was reaching and

[13:15] then you started looking around at all

[13:16] these other schmoes who have podcasts

[13:18] and comparing yourselves to them. So

[13:20] before we talk about what you learned as

[13:22] an antidote to social comparison, can

[13:24] you tell that story?

[13:26] >> Yeah, so we we the the whole concept

[13:28] behind Solved is is that we we take one

[13:31] topic, we go super deep

[13:33] full research team spends four to six

[13:36] weeks researching it. My producer and I

[13:40] we spend

[13:41] two days prepping and then a full day

[13:43] shooting it. Most episodes come out

[13:45] around four or five hours

[13:47] and the goal is is that it's like it is

[13:49] the last podcast you should ever have to

[13:51] listen to on this topic. It's like

[13:53] everything's in there. Every

[13:54] perspective, every piece of research,

[13:56] every historical anecdote or

[13:58] or you know

[14:00] wisdom tradition it will it will at

[14:02] least touch up upon it. So the funny

[14:04] thing is is when we launch we had a

[14:07] incredibly strong launch last last year

[14:09] and the first three or four episodes

[14:11] amazingly well. We hit all sorts of

[14:13] charts and Spotify was really kind to us

[14:15] and kind of give us a push on their

[14:17] platform and

[14:18] um we had a we had a couple clips go

[14:20] viral. So it was like everything seemed

[14:22] amazing and then

[14:24] and then I think it was like maybe three

[14:27] or four months in

[14:28] Spotify like

[14:30] pushed an update to their platform

[14:32] saying that

[14:33] basically saying, "Oh, sorry guys. It

[14:35] turns out we were counting some things

[14:37] wrong." And then that new update came

[14:39] online and it turned out that like a

[14:41] third of the people were listening that

[14:43] we thought were.

[14:44] >> [laughter]

[14:44] >> And so it was I remember coming into the

[14:47] office and my producer was just sitting

[14:49] there staring at the computer screen

[14:50] with this like dead dead face on.

[14:53] >> [laughter]

[14:54] [gasps]

[14:54] >> Just like absolutely miserable and he

[14:56] was just like

[14:58] "Why are we doing this?

[15:00] This is horrible."

[15:01] But it I mean it comes back to the

[15:03] hedonic treadmill thing. But that was

[15:04] our intro to the social comparison

[15:06] episode. To to remind everybody that we

[15:08] are not immune of these things as well.

[15:10] Like these are and this is something

[15:12] that I like to hit on on on my show and

[15:14] and and we've already

[15:16] shared here. But it's like

[15:19] I don't think any of this stuff actually

[15:21] like the irony of the name solved is

[15:22] that none of this stuff actually gets

[15:24] solved. Like you never solve social

[15:26] comparison.

[15:28] You just get better at it. You never

[15:30] solve your confidence issues. You just

[15:32] get better at it. You learn how to

[15:34] manage it over time.

[15:35] >> This is why I like the the the title 10%

[15:38] Happier. It's just like marginal

[15:41] improvement over time. But so what did

[15:43] you learn about why social comparison is

[15:46] such a nagging problem for humans?

[15:49] >> It is very much a baked in part of our

[15:52] hardware. So if you look at

[15:55] just the way that we evolved over

[15:57] millions of years, we evolved in small

[15:59] bands and tribes.

[16:01] And really status comparison served a

[16:05] very very important social function but

[16:08] also like a function of survival. Right?

[16:10] Like if if you and I are in a a

[16:13] prehistoric tribe together, it's

[16:16] important for us to know who is the best

[16:19] hunter, who is the best fisherman, who

[16:21] is the best at

[16:23] organizing and rallying all the

[16:26] the tribe to like fight against the

[16:27] neighboring tribe who's trying to take

[16:29] all of our resources. Like these are all

[16:30] life and death things. So if you were

[16:32] extremely good at something that

[16:34] promotes the tribe's survival,

[16:36] you deserve that status

[16:38] and you deserve special treatment and

[16:40] you deserve to be looked up to cuz it's

[16:42] just it helps everybody survive in in

[16:45] that environment. The flip side of that

[16:46] is that we all have these kind of

[16:49] uh

[16:50] researchers call them sociometers. So

[16:52] these these like uh these almost like

[16:55] gauges inside of our heads where we are

[16:57] constantly subconsciously evaluating our

[17:01] status compared to the people around us.

[17:03] >> Mhm.

[17:04] >> And what's fascinating is that it is

[17:07] completely contextual and relative. So

[17:10] if you take somebody and there's plenty

[17:12] of research on this, if you take

[17:14] somebody who say is making a million

[17:15] dollars a year and they live in a

[17:16] neighborhood where everybody else is

[17:19] making a hundred thousand dollars a

[17:20] year, uh they're going to feel really

[17:22] good about themselves. And if you take

[17:25] that person who's making a million

[17:26] dollars a year and then you you put them

[17:27] in a neighborhood where they live around

[17:29] people who are making ten million

[17:30] dollars a year, they're going to feel

[17:32] really crummy about themselves.

[17:34] And this happens in

[17:35] to all of us all the time. We're in one

[17:39] room where we are really competent, we

[17:41] feel really good about our skills, we

[17:43] have tons of relationships, and we feel

[17:47] really good about our status among the

[17:49] people around us. And then we go to a

[17:51] completely different room in another

[17:52] side of town where we have no idea what

[17:54] we're doing, we have no skill set, we

[17:56] have no relationships, and what do we

[17:58] feel? Insecurity, self-doubt, we kind of

[18:01] want to shrink, we want to like, you

[18:03] know, back up into the corner, become a

[18:05] wallflower. This is all instinctual. We

[18:07] all have it. It's very natural. It

[18:10] evolved within us to promote survival

[18:13] and replication.

[18:14] And it's not something you ever get rid

[18:16] of and it's also something you don't

[18:18] want to get rid of because it is

[18:19] important to to know what you're good at

[18:22] compared to others and what you're not

[18:24] so good at compared to others. Like that

[18:25] is a useful thing to know. Where the

[18:27] problem starts is the self-judgment

[18:30] and the judgment of others around very

[18:33] arbitrary status metrics. That's where

[18:36] we all get into trouble.

[18:37] >> The old comparison is the thief of joy

[18:40] thing. That you

[18:43] Yeah, you can just as you said, you can

[18:45] be making the same income, but depending

[18:47] on which neighborhood you live in, all

[18:49] of a sudden you're enjoying that income

[18:52] way less or way more.

[18:54] Um and it's a great way to just kind of

[18:56] [ __ ] your life if you can't appreciate

[18:59] what you have because you're measuring

[19:02] it against somebody else.

[19:03] >> Yeah. One of the things you say that I

[19:05] thought was really interesting is a

[19:07] common complaint right now is that

[19:10] social comparison has been put on

[19:11] steroids by social media.

[19:13] >> Mhm.

[19:14] >> It is true. I think you and I would both

[19:16] agree is true. But you make the subtle

[19:19] to be a little cute point that the for

[19:21] you page, in other words, the

[19:24] the move from the version of social

[19:27] media where we're following our friends

[19:29] and seeing a curated version of our

[19:31] friends' lives to

[19:33] um a more entertainment-based social

[19:36] media where we're scrolling and the

[19:37] algorithm is just feeding us stuff it

[19:40] knows it it'll that we will like has

[19:43] actually taken some of the sting out of

[19:45] that.

[19:45] >> It has. I think it's replaced it with a

[19:47] different problem. An interesting thing

[19:49] happened with social media about 5 years

[19:51] ago. It was innovated by TikTok. So the

[19:53] TikTok's big innovation was

[19:55] it didn't just show you people you

[19:57] followed, it showed you any piece of

[19:58] content it thought you would enjoy. And

[20:02] and that turned out to be extremely

[20:03] effective. People spent way more time on

[20:05] TikTok than other platforms. So the

[20:07] other platforms adopted it. So now

[20:09] social media is less uh social and it's

[20:11] more media. It's more just imagine

[20:15] a TV, like when we were young, we would

[20:18] sit at home after school and flip TV

[20:20] channels kind of mindlessly until we

[20:22] found something that caught our

[20:23] attention. Now it's a TV that flips the

[20:26] channels for us. It's like, this is what

[20:28] you're going to like next and this is

[20:29] what you're going to like next and this

[20:30] is what you're going to like next.

[20:32] So, the benefit of that is that you kind

[20:34] of do remove a lot of that

[20:36] you know, that that highlight reel,

[20:39] seeing everybody's life,

[20:41] their highlight reels and and and making

[20:43] the false assumption that that's their

[20:45] day-to-day life.

[20:46] A lot of that gets removed, but

[20:48] what the the new problem that creates is

[20:51] that everybody kind of lives in inside

[20:53] their own epistemic bubble. Like,

[20:54] everybody's information diet just

[20:56] becomes extremely siloed.

[20:58] And you can have two people who are

[21:01] good friends in the real world, but like

[21:03] they believe completely different things

[21:06] because the information in the the media

[21:08] that they've been consuming is like

[21:11] just

[21:12] completely different like has no

[21:14] relation to each other.

[21:16] The other thing I'll say, like kind of

[21:18] coming back to the point that social

[21:19] comparison isn't something you get rid

[21:20] of.

[21:22] And it is actually something that is

[21:23] useful. The point I like to make a lot,

[21:26] which is lost on most people, is that

[21:29] there is such a thing as good social

[21:31] comparison, right? Like, so if you think

[21:33] about role models you've had in your

[21:35] life, that is a form of social

[21:36] comparison. If you think about a hero

[21:38] you've had or like somebody who's really

[21:40] inspired you to do something great,

[21:42] that's a form of social comparison. Um

[21:45] if you think about a a a family member,

[21:47] a mentor who's like taught you things,

[21:49] that's a form of social comparison,

[21:51] right? It's not that we should stop

[21:53] comparing ourselves to others, it's we

[21:55] should find good reasons to compare

[21:58] ourselves to good people.

[22:00] And where people that where people

[22:02] suffer is they are usually comparing

[22:04] themselves to

[22:06] people that are not worth comparing

[22:08] themselves to and they're comparing

[22:09] themselves for bad reasons, for very

[22:11] superficial unimportant reasons.

[22:14] >> Like money or fame.

[22:15] >> Totally.

[22:17] >> Now we're going to come back to a a

[22:18] refrain in this show and in your work. I

[22:21] believe you said in the episode that

[22:24] really for you one of the things that

[22:26] cuts through noxious social comparison

[22:29] is remembering what you care about, what

[22:32] you're about. Values, again.

[22:34] >> Right. Right.

[22:35] >> Say more about how that works.

[22:36] >> Well, it it comes back to that line, if

[22:39] you're not aware of what you're willing

[22:41] to be disliked for,

[22:43] then you're you're going to kind of just

[22:45] default to whatever you think

[22:48] is going to make you liked by the most

[22:49] people. And the stuff that's going to

[22:51] make you liked by the most people

[22:53] is generally the most superficial

[22:55] emptiest things, right? Money,

[22:58] materialistic things, beauty,

[23:01] wealth, whatever. When you find

[23:03] something that you're willing to be

[23:04] disliked for, then it allows you to let

[23:06] go of those more superficial

[23:08] comparisons. Because again, those

[23:10] superficial comparisons, they're always

[23:11] there. There's never going to be a point

[23:12] in your life where you stop completely

[23:14] caring about money or stop completely

[23:17] caring about your appearance or whether

[23:19] people think you're attractive or not.

[23:22] What changes is that you find things

[23:24] that are more important. And once you

[23:26] find the more important things, it's

[23:27] like the volume knob on those other

[23:29] comparisons just gets turned way, way

[23:31] down.

[23:31] >> Yeah, there's a quote and I don't know

[23:33] if it's from you or from somebody who

[23:35] you were quoting in the episode, but the

[23:36] best way to stop worrying about what

[23:38] other people think of you is to have

[23:39] something more important than what other

[23:41] people think of you.

[23:42] >> Yes.

[23:43] Yes.

[23:44] And that that ultimately is a question

[23:46] of values.

[23:47] >> What do you recommend to people in terms

[23:49] of figuring out what your values are?

[23:53] >> So, I think there's a few ways to

[23:54] approach it. Part of the problem is that

[23:57] a lot of us

[23:58] we spend our whole life kind of just

[24:00] defaulting to what we think the people

[24:02] around us will like. There's never an

[24:04] opening for us to learn anything about

[24:06] ourselves. So, like quite literally, we

[24:07] don't know ourselves. Because everything

[24:10] we've cared about has just been a proxy

[24:12] because other people care about.

[24:13] >> Right.

[24:14] >> So, I think the the first thing is to

[24:16] give yourself that space, whether it's

[24:18] time or a specific hobby or setting

[24:22] aside, you know, a trip for yourself

[24:25] to like just go explore things that you

[24:27] like to do for no other reason than you

[24:30] like to do them.

[24:31] And figure out what you care about when

[24:33] absent of any sort of pressure or

[24:36] stimulation from the outside world. And

[24:38] I think once you create that space, what

[24:41] you start to notice is that there are

[24:43] certain curiosities or certain desires

[24:45] that start to show up naturally on their

[24:47] own again and again. Certain

[24:50] preferences, certain priorities. And I

[24:52] think those are the things that that you

[24:53] then have to make an effort to pursue

[24:56] consciously.

[24:58] And the the funny thing about values, we

[25:00] talked about this in our values episode,

[25:01] is that it's not like you find one thing

[25:04] you care about and then that's

[25:06] that's it. You're set. You're like,

[25:08] "Awesome. Nailed it. Got it figured

[25:10] out." It's values they're they're kind

[25:12] of always in this tension with one

[25:14] another, right? Like they're because

[25:16] there's trade-offs between everything in

[25:17] life. Like in in in your time is always

[25:20] scarce and your attention is scarce. So,

[25:21] like, you know, spending more time with

[25:24] your family is always going to come at a

[25:25] cost of spending time doing something

[25:27] else. And spending more time at work is

[25:28] going to come at a cost of, you know,

[25:30] social life and family and, you know,

[25:32] physical health or whatever. So, the

[25:33] more you prioritize any one thing,

[25:35] you're you are like

[25:37] by definition deprioritizing other

[25:39] things. And so, I think

[25:41] when you create that space and you

[25:43] eliminate certain things from your life

[25:45] as an experiment, you you kind of learn

[25:48] what you actually really miss and and

[25:50] what you don't miss at all.

[25:52] >> So, you we've been using the word

[25:54] values.

[25:55] >> Mhm.

[25:56] >> You also did an episode on purpose.

[25:58] >> Yes.

[25:58] >> And and those strike me as

[26:01] if not synonymous, very very similar.

[26:04] >> They're related. So, I think purpose

[26:07] there's more of an action element to it.

[26:09] The best way I I I like to describe it

[26:11] is that purpose is a sense that your

[26:13] time was spent well.

[26:15] >> Mhm.

[26:16] >> Right? So, when people say, "I want to

[26:17] find my purpose." or "I want to feel

[26:18] more purpose in my life." Like, what

[26:20] does that actually mean?

[26:22] Like, what is having more purpose in

[26:23] your life?

[26:25] I think it is the sense that you have

[26:27] spent your time well and that time is

[26:29] spent well based on what you care about,

[26:31] what you prioritize. Like if you're

[26:33] spending all your time doing stuff that

[26:34] doesn't matter to you, then you're going

[26:36] to feel like your your life has very

[26:37] little purpose. Uh whereas if you spend

[26:39] your time doing something that does feel

[26:40] very meaningful and valuable to you,

[26:42] then

[26:43] you're going to feel a great sense of

[26:45] purpose. Right? So you could you could

[26:47] come to see what your values are,

[26:49] but

[26:50] not actually figure out what your

[26:52] purpose is or live in your purpose.

[26:55] >> Right.

[26:55] >> So then and and that delta would create

[26:57] a lot of unhappiness.

[26:58] >> Yes. Purpose is kind of what happens

[27:00] when your values make contact with the

[27:02] real world.

[27:03] >> Got it. Got it. And if memory serves,

[27:05] what you recommended in that

[27:08] um in that episode

[27:11] in terms of figuring out what your

[27:12] purpose is

[27:13] is similar to what you recommended just

[27:15] now in terms of figuring out what your

[27:16] values are, giving yourself space to run

[27:19] experiments and to tap into your own

[27:22] innate curiosity about like what turns

[27:25] you on.

[27:26] >> Yeah.

[27:27] Yeah, and it's it's with purpose that's

[27:29] really interesting.

[27:31] So one part of it is

[27:33] that there's something that you feel

[27:35] like you are uniquely positioned or

[27:38] capable of doing that most other people

[27:40] are not. There's something specific

[27:42] about

[27:43] your skills, your experience, your

[27:44] talents, your situation that most other

[27:47] people don't have. And then finding

[27:50] where that can contribute to something

[27:52] that is valuable and meaningful

[27:54] for other people. Like that's if you can

[27:57] find that Venn diagram, you can find

[27:59] where to point your talents and and

[28:02] specific experiences and history towards

[28:04] something that is useful and meaningful

[28:06] for for others, like purpose naturally

[28:09] emerges as a result.

[28:11] >> One of the

[28:12] practical

[28:13] techniques that you recommended for

[28:15] figuring out your purpose is to do a

[28:17] time audit.

[28:18] >> Mhm. Yeah.

[28:19] >> What is that?

[28:20] >> So a time audit

[28:22] is to

[28:23] at the end of a day, take like a week,

[28:26] and at the end of each day sit down for

[28:28] like 10 20 minutes and actually

[28:31] uh

[28:32] map in

[28:33] how you spent

[28:35] each hour of that day. Like what you

[28:37] were actually doing. Not not what you

[28:38] were supposed to be doing, but like what

[28:41] you were actually doing. You know, we we

[28:43] all know you were at work for 8 hours,

[28:45] but like you know,

[28:47] were you browsing Instagram? Were you

[28:50] texting with your friend? Were you Did

[28:52] you take a 2-hour lunch? Like actually

[28:54] color in what you spent the time doing?

[28:58] And then go through and and

[29:01] rate

[29:02] from 1 to 10 how how meaningful that

[29:05] activity felt to you. What ends up

[29:07] emerging is that you find that there's

[29:09] probably one or two things that are not

[29:11] very meaningful to you that are eating

[29:13] up a lot more time than you expected.

[29:14] And then the things that are meaningful

[29:16] to you, you're like, "Wow, I barely

[29:17] spent any time this week doing that." I

[29:19] think that would be a powerful

[29:21] >> source of data. No question.

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[33:02] There's one more solved episode I want

[33:04] to ask you about, and then I want to ask

[33:06] you about this big new project you've

[33:07] launched.

[33:08] >> Okay.

[33:08] >> Um the final solved episode I want to

[33:11] ask you about is confidence.

[33:12] >> Mhm.

[33:12] >> I'm very curious to get to the

[33:14] punchline, like how do you get more

[33:16] confidence? But let me start with a

[33:17] definitional question, like what is

[33:18] confidence, and how is it different

[33:21] from, say, self-esteem?

[33:23] >> I love this episode because it is

[33:27] I I just I have like a soft spot in my

[33:29] heart for contrarian takes, and um

[33:32] it's interesting going into each solved

[33:35] episode because

[33:36] occasionally we find that, okay, yeah,

[33:38] the conventional wisdom is kind of dead

[33:40] on, and it's a lot of the advice is what

[33:43] you would expect. Sometimes you find

[33:44] that there's like a lot of nuance, and

[33:46] you know, it depends. That's usually the

[33:48] case. And then every once in a while

[33:51] you dig really deep into something, and

[33:52] you're like, "Oh,

[33:54] this people should not really care about

[33:57] this."

[33:57] >> [laughter]

[34:00] >> This is the wrong question, and

[34:01] confidence is one of those.

[34:03] >> Really?

[34:03] >> It is.

[34:04] >> shouldn't care about being confident.

[34:05] >> the wrong question.

[34:07] >> Interesting.

[34:07] >> It is the wrong question. And

[34:08] interestingly, one of the things that we

[34:10] uncovered when we did the episode is

[34:12] that for most of human history,

[34:14] confidence was actually a pejorative

[34:16] term.

[34:16] >> Oh.

[34:17] >> So, for example, the term con man

[34:20] >> Uh

[34:20] >> comes from the term confidence man,

[34:22] which

[34:23] people used to use as an insult. It was

[34:25] it was essentially

[34:27] um the the word that was used in the

[34:30] 18th and 19th century for somebody who

[34:31] was a fraud or a scamster.

[34:33] They were confidence men. It only

[34:35] switched in the mid-20th century, and

[34:37] and a lot of it traced back to Norman

[34:39] Vincent Peale, but Um

[34:41] >> The the guy who wrote The Power of

[34:42] Positive Thinking.

[34:43] >> Yes. Yes.

[34:44] >> Uh, who happened to be Trump's personal

[34:45] pastor.

[34:46] >> Yes, which explains a lot.

[34:48] >> Yes, it does.

[34:49] >> [laughter]

[34:51] [gasps]

[34:51] >> So, confidence, it is the way Peel

[34:54] described it is he said that basically

[34:56] he said you need to feel good about what

[34:58] you're about to do in order to do it

[35:00] well.

[35:01] And I think this

[35:03] this assumption suits our intuition

[35:05] >> Mhm.

[35:06] >> quite a bit, right? Because if you think

[35:07] about all the things that make you

[35:09] anxious or all the things that you're

[35:12] insecure about

[35:13] you don't want to do them and so you

[35:15] imagine that if I just felt better about

[35:17] it, I would be able to do it.

[35:20] Well, by the 1970s and 1980s, they found

[35:22] pretty consistently that no, actually

[35:24] that's not the case at all. Like,

[35:26] >> [gasps]

[35:26] >> making you feel good about doing

[35:28] something

[35:29] uh doesn't actually make you perform any

[35:31] better.

[35:32] Um, and in many cases it just kind of

[35:33] deludes you into thinking you did a good

[35:35] job even though you didn't. The way

[35:37] confidence actually works, confidence is

[35:39] not the input of good action, it is the

[35:42] output of good action. Confidence is

[35:45] built and accumulated by building

[35:47] evidence that you are capable of

[35:48] handling something. So, it's the more

[35:50] you speak in front of

[35:53] uh a group of people

[35:55] the more confident you become that

[35:57] you're able to speak in front of a group

[35:59] of people because you have accumulated a

[36:00] lot of evidence that you're able to do

[36:02] it. Now, obviously this does not solve

[36:04] the problem of people who are like super

[36:06] anxious and freaking out before doing

[36:08] something.

[36:09] And so

[36:10] the conclusion of of the episode is that

[36:12] it's not confidence that people actually

[36:14] need, it's courage.

[36:16] >> Mhm.

[36:17] >> And courage, it turns out, is it's a

[36:19] completely different thing to develop.

[36:22] And it requires

[36:25] a progressive desensitization

[36:28] a a practice of

[36:31] um being able to confront difficult

[36:33] things,

[36:34] um being able to manage failure well um

[36:38] being able to get back up after a

[36:40] setback. Like, these are all kind of

[36:42] mental muscles that we have to to build

[36:44] and and practice. And once we build that

[36:47] courage muscle, confidence just starts

[36:49] happening as a as a side effect of being

[36:53] able to successfully do the actions we

[36:55] want to do.

[36:56] >> So, we should build courage and an

[36:58] emergent property will be confidence.

[37:01] >> Correct.

[37:02] >> It reminds me of I think it was John

[37:04] Wayne who said,

[37:06] "Courage is being afraid, but saddling

[37:08] up anyway."

[37:09] >> Yeah.

[37:10] Yeah. And I talked about I I I'm

[37:12] extremely

[37:14] extremely anxious person, and I have a

[37:16] son who's quite anxious, and we talk

[37:18] about this a lot, which is you know,

[37:20] courage is being afraid and doing it

[37:22] anyway, and and um but you that doesn't

[37:25] mean

[37:26] going you said selective and systematic

[37:29] desensitization. So, it's like going in

[37:32] a stepwise manner to build

[37:36] the courage, thereby the confidence, to

[37:40] do things over time.

[37:41] >> Yes. So, in the the episode, so this was

[37:45] primarily discovered by a famous

[37:47] psychologist named Bandura, and he did a

[37:49] series of experiments at Stanford

[37:52] where he took people who were incredibly

[37:55] afraid of snakes, like intense snake

[37:57] phobias.

[37:59] And he brought them into uh a room with

[38:03] a a window into another room, and the

[38:05] the other room was full of snakes. And

[38:07] of course, they freaked out, they

[38:09] screamed, they wanted to leave, all this

[38:10] stuff.

[38:12] He kept them there until they were

[38:13] finally kind of calmed down, and they

[38:15] were comfortable at least being in the

[38:16] next room.

[38:18] Okay.

[38:20] Next step, open the door.

[38:23] All the people, they start freaking out.

[38:25] They're like, "Oh my god, close the

[38:26] door. I can't handle it. It's too much.

[38:28] Blah blah blah blah blah."

[38:30] A few minutes go by, they calm down,

[38:33] they realize it's okay.

[38:35] Next step, why don't you step into the

[38:37] next room? Of course, panic, freak out,

[38:40] on and on it goes.

[38:41] Long story short, within a single day,

[38:44] it took like 8 or 10 hours, but within a

[38:46] single day, he got each of these people

[38:49] with snake phobias to actually hold

[38:52] snakes.

[38:54] And

[38:55] interestingly, afterwards,

[38:59] he followed up with them six or eight

[39:00] weeks later

[39:02] and and asked them how they felt and

[39:04] whether they were still as afraid of

[39:05] snakes or not and

[39:07] they were still a little afraid, but

[39:08] definitely much less afraid. But a lot

[39:10] of them started reporting all these

[39:12] other kind of side benefits in their

[39:13] lives. They realized that like actually

[39:16] they were speaking up more at work and

[39:18] they were you know, taking more

[39:21] accountability

[39:22] in fights with their partner and and

[39:25] able to like have difficult

[39:26] conversations a little bit better. And

[39:28] so what Bandura noticed is that there

[39:30] was something about competence,

[39:33] developing competence,

[39:35] that gave people the evidence I can do

[39:39] hard things. I can handle difficult

[39:41] situations. I can

[39:44] I can bounce back from being under

[39:46] pressure. And that that doesn't it

[39:49] starts being domain specific, but then

[39:50] it bleeds into the other areas of your

[39:53] life.

[39:53] >> buy that. It seems at least related to

[39:56] the concept of having a growth mindset

[39:58] like that you are capable of change and

[40:01] fact looked at through a Buddhist lens,

[40:03] you are constituted

[40:05] by change. Like you are nothing but a

[40:07] process. It also reminds me of the fact

[40:10] that the in if you look at all of the

[40:12] the research into habit change,

[40:14] >> Mhm.

[40:15] >> the number one advice is always start

[40:17] small because what you want to do is put

[40:19] some wins on the board and then you

[40:21] start to gain confidence. You start to

[40:24] and and and probably more importantly,

[40:26] you should you start to develop

[40:28] a new identity. I'm the type of person

[40:31] who exercises even if it's a run around

[40:33] the block. I'm the type of person who

[40:35] meditates even if it's only 1 minute of

[40:37] meditation. Yeah, all of these thing

[40:39] this building of courage and competence

[40:43] seems like I think your point is let's

[40:46] aim for that and the confidence will

[40:48] come as a consequence, but if you aim

[40:50] for confidence, it's uh kind of starting

[40:53] at the wrong end.

[40:54] >> Yes, and you can get yourself into a lot

[40:56] of trouble. So, you asked about

[40:57] self-esteem earlier, and part of the

[41:00] offshoot of kind of

[41:01] Peale's assumption was the self-esteem

[41:04] movement in the '60s and '70s. And the

[41:06] self-esteem movement was built off the

[41:08] idea that if we just make people feel

[41:10] really good about themselves, they will

[41:12] do good things. And this emerged from

[41:15] they did a bunch of research, they found

[41:16] that generally

[41:18] students who performed better in school

[41:20] tended to feel really good about

[41:21] themselves. Uh

[41:23] ki- people who are more successful

[41:24] professionally, they felt really good

[41:26] about themselves, you know, on and on

[41:28] and on. They looked at all these

[41:28] different measurements. And and people

[41:31] generally had a very positive

[41:32] self-image. The problem is is that they

[41:34] were missing the cause and effect there.

[41:35] Like the it it turns out in hindsight

[41:39] the student that did extremely well and

[41:41] went to Harvard, they felt good about

[41:43] themselves because they did extremely

[41:44] well and went to Harvard. [laughter]

[41:46] It's not the feeling good about

[41:47] themselves that that that caused it, it

[41:49] was the effect. And the the thing that

[41:51] kind of blew this up

[41:53] uh in the '90s, uh psychologist by the

[41:56] name of Roy Baumeister um was actually

[41:59] tasked to do kind of a large

[42:00] meta-analysis of self-esteem research

[42:02] because I mean the self-esteem

[42:04] research and and and practices it was

[42:07] instituted into our education policy.

[42:09] >> gets a trophy.

[42:10] >> Yes, exactly. Like it in the in the '80s

[42:12] '70s and '80s it was like education

[42:15] systems were actively teaching the

[42:17] teachers how to give their students

[42:19] self-esteem.

[42:20] >> It's your generation, you're a

[42:21] millennial. I'm a Gen X. We were we

[42:23] were, you know, I went to a camp where

[42:25] they literally taught us how to box as a

[42:27] way to deal [laughter] with our

[42:28] conflicts. Unlike the the with the

[42:31] millennials that would never fly, okay?

[42:34] >> I definitely got it, yeah.

[42:34] >> You you got it, okay.

[42:36] >> So, Baumeister he started he kind of

[42:38] took all the data and ran a bunch of

[42:41] research himself

[42:42] and came back and he he said

[42:46] yeah, turns out there's nothing there.

[42:47] Not only does it turn out that there's

[42:49] nothing there, but it turns out that

[42:50] there's potentially a lot of negative

[42:52] side effects of having a high

[42:53] self-esteem.

[42:54] >> Narcissism.

[42:54] >> Exactly. So, for example, he went to

[42:57] maximum security prisons and started

[42:59] measuring the self-esteem of violent

[43:02] criminals

[43:03] and it turned out the more violent the

[43:05] criminal, the higher the self-esteem.

[43:07] >> Yes.

[43:07] >> You know, and in the episode, uh, my

[43:10] producer and I, we spent a lot of time

[43:11] kind of digging into kind of the

[43:13] psychological biases and and, um,

[43:16] all the ways that we we kind of

[43:17] misattribute our own skill and and our

[43:20] own abilities to to explain why why

[43:23] pursuing confidence can can get you in

[43:25] the trouble, but, you know, the short

[43:27] version is that

[43:28] we just don't really have an accurate

[43:31] view of ourselves most of the time. And

[43:33] and so, the only way to have an accurate

[43:35] view of yourself is to actually go do

[43:37] the thing and see what happens. And so,

[43:40] that's why the only healthy version of

[43:41] confidence is

[43:43] is the end product of the action, not

[43:45] not the input of it.

[43:47] >> Well said. Very helpful, actually.

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[45:22] Okay, before I let you go, before I lose

[45:23] you, I want to ask you about you've got

[45:25] a big new um

[45:28] project. I did not mention this in the

[45:31] intro because, as I told you before we

[45:33] started rolling, there are some pretty

[45:35] negative feelings about AI these days.

[45:38] >> Yes.

[45:38] >> It's weird because a lot of people are

[45:40] using it even though they say they hate

[45:41] it. Um and I'll I'll just be open before

[45:44] anybody starts to get mad at me. I have

[45:47] all of your same concerns about AI, but

[45:49] I do I do use it.

[45:50] >> Right.

[45:51] >> You have launched Is it to call it a

[45:53] chatbot, is that accurate?

[45:55] >> Yeah, I mean, we call it an AI mentor,

[45:57] but

[45:57] >> Okay.

[45:57] >> it it the the main there is other

[45:59] functionality, but the main

[46:00] functionality is chat.

[46:01] >> And it's it's called Purpose AI.

[46:03] >> Yes.

[46:04] >> And the

[46:06] cool thing about Purpose AI is it's not

[46:08] sycophantic. It actually

[46:11] talks to you the way a good friend would

[46:12] talk to you, which is it will tell you

[46:14] the truth without being a dick about it.

[46:16] >> Yes. Correct.

[46:17] >> Um so, just say more about the project.

[46:19] >> So, I'll I'll I'll kind of talk about

[46:21] where it came from and and make my case

[46:24] to maybe the more skeptical listeners.

[46:26] The the first thing

[46:28] you know, when ChatGPT came out,

[46:29] everybody was using it. I started to

[46:31] become very surprised and startled by

[46:33] how many people in my personal life were

[46:35] telling me that they were going to

[46:37] ChatGPT with deep personal issues.

[46:40] >> Yeah. I do it.

[46:41] >> Yeah. And kind of using it as like like

[46:43] a therapist or a coach.

[46:44] >> Yes.

[46:45] >> And so, I went and I I tried it out. And

[46:48] sure enough, like there's a lot of it

[46:50] gives you it can give you a lot of great

[46:51] information. It can also make some stuff

[46:53] up.

[46:53] >> A million percent.

[46:54] >> And it also kisses your ass.

[46:56] >> Yes.

[46:57] >> Right? So, it's

[46:58] >> Yes. Yeah. I kind of like that part a

[47:00] little bit.

[47:00] >> I mean, yeah, yeah. [laughter]

[47:01] Hey,

[47:02] we all need it sometimes.

[47:05] >> [gasps]

[47:05] >> But, it's I mean, it's to the point like

[47:07] I joke around with my co-founder that

[47:09] it's like you you could you could rob a

[47:11] bank and and be in a high-speed police

[47:14] chase and ask ChatGPT, "How do I get

[47:16] away from the police?" And ChatGPT would

[47:18] be like, "Wow, you're so brave."

[47:19] >> Yeah.

[47:20] >> [laughter]

[47:21] >> That must be really hard for you.

[47:23] >> Although, it does have all of this

[47:24] language and it doesn't it it's it's

[47:27] trying not to get sued a lot. Like, if I

[47:29] ask it certain questions, it's always

[47:31] like talk to your doctor or etc. etc.

[47:33] >> Because they have been sued a lot. But,

[47:36] fair enough. [laughter]

[47:37] So, I I started to observe this and um

[47:41] and one one of the things that I have

[47:42] been keenly aware of being in this

[47:45] industry for almost 20 years now is that

[47:47] there is a a shocking lack of

[47:51] uh accessibility to good life advice, to

[47:53] good mental health care, to good

[47:55] coaching and mentoring.

[47:57] Um

[47:58] there there's some pretty harrowing

[47:59] statistics around this that for every I

[48:02] believe it's for every therapist or

[48:04] counselor

[48:06] who's working, there are 48 people who

[48:09] want access to a therapist or counselor,

[48:11] but don't don't either don't have access

[48:13] to one or don't have the the means to

[48:16] afford one.

[48:17] So, that it's a market that the demand

[48:20] vastly outstrips the supply.

[48:23] So, this this idea I mean, you see it in

[48:25] a few places that um

[48:28] that AI is going to put doctors and

[48:30] therapists and um and coaches out of

[48:33] business. I I think there's absolutely

[48:35] no way because first of all, there's

[48:38] just not enough doctors and coaches and

[48:40] therapists and counselors in the world

[48:42] for for all the people who need one.

[48:44] So, that that's point number one. And

[48:46] then point number two is

[48:48] another

[48:49] tension or struggle that I've felt for a

[48:51] long time in this industry is is that

[48:53] generally

[48:55] the things that work best don't scale

[48:57] very well and the things that scale

[48:58] really well

[49:00] don't work the best, right? So, you and

[49:02] I have both written books.

[49:04] Um you and I both do podcasts. They're

[49:06] great, right? They're very helpful. I've

[49:08] I've read a lot of books that are

[49:09] helpful. I've listened to a lot of

[49:10] podcasts that are helpful, but you know,

[49:12] they move the needle a little. Like it's

[49:14] it's very rare that, you know, something

[49:17] uh

[49:18] a podcast episode is going to take you

[49:19] from zero to 10 on an issue in your

[49:21] life.

[49:22] Um whereas if you do sit down and spend

[49:24] a lot of time with a a really good coach

[49:27] or counselor or whoever it is,

[49:29] within a few months, you can move the

[49:31] needle a lot. But that doesn't scale.

[49:33] And and it's not to mention it's hard to

[49:36] find someone who's really a good fit for

[49:39] you and and all that. So, I started to

[49:41] see the opportunity of how AI could

[49:44] supplement the

[49:46] the overwhelming demand in the market

[49:48] and give access to people who normally

[49:51] wouldn't have access to to good advice.

[49:54] There is research on AI-driven life

[49:56] advice. Um it is net positive. It is

[50:00] good by and large.

[50:02] Um it is not as good as a a good

[50:04] therapist or a good coach, but it is

[50:06] still good and it does have a positive

[50:08] effect.

[50:09] Um and we've already seen from our users

[50:11] that it's had a a drastic positive

[50:13] effect on people's lives and the fact

[50:15] that it's it's always there. It's always

[50:17] available. You know, you wake up at 2:00

[50:19] a.m. freaking out about something. You

[50:20] can't You can't call your therapist,

[50:22] right? So, but you can talk to an AI and

[50:25] it's going to be

[50:27] awake. It's going to

[50:29] have the exact same quality of answer it

[50:30] would at 2:00 p.m. Um it's not going to

[50:33] judge you. It's not going to scold you

[50:35] for, you know, losing sleep. It's So, I

[50:38] I do think there is a role that it can

[50:40] play in in this industry.

[50:43] And I am excited for the potential of

[50:44] it. Okay, so that's that that's my

[50:46] defense. I rest my case.

[50:48] >> I I I

[50:48] >> [laughter]

[50:49] >> I'm I'm I'm not the one I'm not the one

[50:52] who's skeptical. I'm I'm just channeling

[50:54] those who are skeptical in the audience.

[50:55] There is one thing I'm skeptical about

[50:57] though and it's it's more from a

[50:58] business perspective. Okay.

[51:01] Uh

[51:02] why would I download Purpose AI rather

[51:07] than just keep my subscription to to

[51:11] Claude or ChatGPT and just advise it to

[51:16] not be sycophantic?

[51:17] >> A couple reasons. One, I mean

[51:19] they have gotten better. The the main

[51:22] models, they have gotten less

[51:23] sycophantic over time.

[51:25] I'd say the biggest thing that we do

[51:27] that um is is different than what they

[51:30] do. I mean, first of all, our our

[51:32] our product is specifically catered for

[51:34] this use case. So, all the prompting,

[51:37] all the systems, the databases,

[51:39] everything is like specifically designed

[51:40] for this. The other thing that we do is

[51:42] that when you sign up

[51:45] you're taken through an onboarding

[51:46] process, and what that onboarding

[51:47] process is doing is that it is doing a

[51:49] personality assessment and getting an

[51:51] understanding of of of who you are at

[51:55] like at a psychological level. Um we we

[51:58] get your top three values, and we give

[52:01] you the Schwartz values evaluation. Um

[52:04] and so we pull your top three values,

[52:05] and then we give you a big five

[52:07] assessment, so we get your big five

[52:08] personality, and um we have like an

[52:11] attachment quiz, so we can figure out

[52:12] your attachment type. With that, all of

[52:15] those things kind of fed into the model,

[52:19] it will know how to give you

[52:20] personalized advice based on you know,

[52:22] combining that with your unique

[52:24] situation, it can give you much more

[52:26] personalized advice

[52:28] um that is actually credible towards who

[52:30] you are psychographically than say

[52:33] um

[52:33] you know, just a a generic model that

[52:36] you know, you asked for help with your

[52:37] groceries and what the weather's going

[52:39] to be tomorrow and all that.

[52:40] >> Final question, we do this little

[52:42] segment, it's called uh what's good?

[52:45] I'm curious, like is there a book,

[52:47] movie, little life hack, um

[52:50] anything that you would recommend that's

[52:52] uh

[52:53] top of mind for you?

[52:54] >> It's funny that we were just talking

[52:55] about AI. One of my favorite things to

[52:58] do recently, my wife and I we went

[53:00] online when we found I think it was the

[53:02] New York Times list of 100 greatest

[53:04] films ever.

[53:05] >> Yes. Yes.

[53:06] >> And we just marked down

[53:08] all of all the films that at least one

[53:11] of us had not seen. And so we have this

[53:12] list of like 50 movies.

[53:14] We watch one or two a week. But so

[53:17] here's the hack. Watch something, you

[53:19] know, like we watched David Lynch's

[53:21] Mulholland Drive recently. Total mind

[53:23] [ __ ] Like great movie, but also you get

[53:26] to the end and you're like what did I

[53:28] just watch?

[53:29] >> [laughter]

[53:31] [gasps]

[53:31] >> Like what happened?

[53:33] Here's my favorite thing. Go on Claude

[53:36] or ChatGPT and prompt it and say, "You

[53:38] are an expert movie critic. I want you

[53:41] to give me a full

[53:43] analysis of Mulholland Drive. Give me

[53:46] the backstory. How how did it go into

[53:48] production? What was David Lynch's

[53:50] creative process? What were the

[53:53] interesting things that happened during

[53:54] production? What was the critical

[53:56] reception at the time? How is it aged?

[53:59] >> I love it.

[53:59] >> What's the cultural impact it's had?

[54:01] >> Yes.

[54:02] >> And it gives you

[54:04] the best 10-20 page report. It is so

[54:08] fascinating. You learn so many like

[54:11] interesting tidbits and like creative

[54:13] decisions that happened and total

[54:15] accidents that happened on set that were

[54:17] left in the movie that ended up being

[54:19] brilliant. And and it

[54:21] it's just created like such a fun

[54:24] intellectual experience for my wife and

[54:26] I. It's it's like one of our favorite

[54:28] things to do on the weekend.

[54:29] >> That's so great. I love it. And funny

[54:30] it's funny because what my my

[54:33] my what's good is actually quite

[54:35] similar. I actually was looking through

[54:37] the New York Times list of 100 best

[54:40] films of the 21st century the other day

[54:42] and listing the ones I've been giving my

[54:44] son a cinematic education.

[54:46] >> Nice.

[54:46] >> He's almost 12 and rejects almost

[54:48] everything I say, but has actually been

[54:50] very open to this. And his he's like

[54:53] Daddy, like what's the next movie we

[54:54] should see? So I was I was harvesting

[54:56] from that list movies that I think he

[54:59] could watch. Um

[55:02] but anyway, one of the one of the movies

[55:03] we watched recently that I'm going to

[55:04] recommend now that it wasn't on that

[55:06] list is um we we've been on a space jag.

[55:10] We saw um Project Hail Mary a couple

[55:13] months ago when it came out and he was

[55:15] turning he kept turning to me during the

[55:16] movie he's like, "Daddy, this is the

[55:18] best movie ever, right? This is

[55:20] [laughter] this is amazing." And uh so

[55:22] we went and watched um like Interstellar

[55:25] and all these other space movies.

[55:28] Uh some of them good, some of them bad.

[55:29] One we watched recently that I kind of

[55:31] had a positive memory of but it forgot

[55:34] how good it is.

[55:35] >> Mhm.

[55:35] >> Um and maybe it's because the star is so

[55:38] controversial and easy to dismiss.

[55:40] There's a Tom Cruise movie called Edge

[55:42] of Tomorrow. Have you ever seen it?

[55:44] >> Yeah.

[55:44] >> Oh, I did like I think back when it came

[55:46] out.

[55:47] >> It's like 10 years old.

[55:48] >> Yeah.

[55:48] >> And it's about it's basically the best

[55:51] version It's not explicitly a video game

[55:54] movie.

[55:55] >> Mhm.

[55:56] >> But it's kind of the best version of the

[55:58] spirit of a video game taken into a

[56:00] movie because it's about this guy who

[56:03] dies and gets a new life every time and

[56:05] like starts over in the game.

[56:06] >> Yeah.

[56:07] >> And um it's extremely well done. And I'm

[56:11] not I have a lot of mixed feelings about

[56:13] Tom Cruise.

[56:14] >> [laughter]

[56:14] >> I covered Scientology when I was a

[56:16] reporter and so like yeah had a lot of

[56:19] interactions with the church. And um but

[56:22] he's great in the movie, Emily Blunt's

[56:24] great in the movie and um my son loved

[56:27] it. So if you're looking for a space

[56:29] movie,

[56:30] Edge of Tomorrow.

[56:31] >> Nice.

[56:32] >> This has been a total pleasure. Like I

[56:34] said, can't I [ __ ] believe it's taken

[56:37] this long to have you on the show. I

[56:38] mean but I'm better late than ever and

[56:41] it's so cool to meet you. So thank you

[56:43] for your time. And I just want to remind

[56:45] everybody before I let you go of all the

[56:47] stuff that you're doing that people

[56:48] should check out. His first book was

[56:50] called The Subtle Art of Not Giving a

[56:52] [ __ ] He's got uh a YouTube channel

[56:54] where he makes all sorts of cool videos.

[56:56] On that YouTube channel and on any

[56:58] podcast platform you can get his podcast

[57:01] which is called Solved with Mark Manson.

[57:03] And if you don't hate hate AI, uh he's

[57:06] got uh Purpose AI

[57:08] uh available in any app store.

[57:11] How to do?

[57:12] >> Then I list everything.

[57:13] >> Amazing. Thank you. All right. Mark

[57:14] Manson, thank you.

[57:16] Thank you very much for watching and or

[57:19] listening today. Really appreciate it.

[57:20] If you want to hook me up, and I know

[57:22] what podcast hosts ask for this all the

[57:24] time, but there's a reason why we ask

[57:25] for it because it's genuinely helpful.

[57:28] If you want to hook me and my team up,

[57:30] follow us and like us and rate us and

[57:33] review us on whatever platform you're

[57:35] consuming the show right now. Share with

[57:37] your friends. Follow us on social media.

[57:39] It all genuinely helps us grow. Now on

[57:42] to the credits.

[57:43] Thank you so much to everybody who

[57:45] worked so hard to make this show. 10%

[57:47] Happier is produced by Tara Anderson,

[57:49] Marissa Schneiderman, DJ Cashmere, David

[57:52] Hart, and Hayden Broom. Post-production

[57:55] is handled by the great folks over at

[57:56] Greenhorn Creative. And Nick Thorburn of

[57:59] the great indie rock band Islands wrote

[58:01] our theme. Thank you for listening.

[58:03] Deuces.

Ten Percent Happier
ArtistTen Percent Happier

Watch more from Ten Percent Happier on YouTube.

Voir le profilSite web
Explorer les thèmes
Values-prioritizationSocial-comparisonConfidencePeople-pleasingHedonic-treadmill

Des questions ?

Questions fréquemment posées

The first step is to ask yourself what you're willing to be disliked for. If you can't answer that question, you don't actually have clear values—you're just drifting with social pressure. Clarity about what's worth social cost is what lets you stop caring about everything else.
The human brain is built for incremental 5-10% yearly improvement. When something jumps 10,000% in six months (like a viral book), it breaks your brain's expectations. Hedonic adaptation kicks in—the extraordinary becomes ordinary—and you're left chasing the next high rather than savoring what you achieved.
Values are the struggles and trade-offs you're willing to make. Purpose is often what you tell yourself you're after, but it can mask values you haven't examined. A time audit reveals the gap: your calendar and bank account show your real values, not your stated purpose.
Algorithms feed you statistically exceptional humans—the most beautiful, most successful, most admired. You're comparing your behind-the-scenes to their highlight reel. It's not peer-to-peer comparison anymore; it's you versus an infinite algorithmic mirror of human achievement.
No. Comparing yourself to role models who embody values you aspire to can clarify and inspire. The toxic kind is comparison based on status, money, or beauty—things that are either zero-sum or externally validated, which keep you in perpetual inadequacy.
It's not nihilism or apathy. It means being ruthlessly selective about what deserves your attention and energy. You have to care about something; the skill is caring about the things that matter to you, not the things that everyone else thinks should matter.
Ask: What struggles would I endure? What would I be willing to be disliked for? What am I already making trade-offs for? Your answers reveal your actual values. Then do a time audit—where do your hours actually go? The gap between stated values and lived time shows what work needs doing.

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