Transcript
[0:03] Hey everybody, welcome to the 10%
[0:05] Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Today
[0:07] we are going to talk to a very wise and
[0:09] very funny Buddhist nun whose name is
[0:12] Ayya Santacitta. We're going to talk
[0:14] about what we're getting wrong about
[0:16] self-improvement,
[0:17] uh the upside of having your heart
[0:19] broken,
[0:21] uh dropping our self-limiting stories,
[0:24] uh the fact that patience is not, as she
[0:27] says, just for old ladies, how to
[0:29] tolerate uncertainty, uh tuning into uh
[0:34] never-enoughness as a way to turn
[0:36] insufficiency to your advantage. As you
[0:38] can tell, it's a it's a wide-ranging and
[0:41] really interesting and really useful
[0:42] conversation. Just a little bit more
[0:44] about Ayya Santacitta before we dive in.
[0:46] She's a Western Buddhist nun who trained
[0:48] in England and in Asia, primarily in the
[0:51] lineage of uh a Thai master named Ajahn
[0:54] Chah. Uh she lives and teaches uh from
[0:57] the Aloka Earth Room in San Rafael,
[1:00] California, and she's written a book
[1:02] called uh What Are You Waiting For? Ayya
[1:05] Santacitta, welcome to the show.
[1:07] >> Thank you, Dan, for inviting me.
[1:09] >> I'm so glad you said yes. I have a bunch
[1:10] of things I want to talk to you about,
[1:11] but I'm just curious, just to get us
[1:13] started here, how, why, when did you
[1:16] become a nun?
[1:17] >> Uh you know, I became a nun in 1993,
[1:22] and it all began in 1988 when I met my
[1:26] first teacher in the forest of South
[1:30] Thailand,
[1:31] and you got really kind of increasingly
[1:34] more interested,
[1:36] and and then ended up becoming a novice
[1:39] in a international monastery north of
[1:42] London in the UK in 1993,
[1:46] where I trained for about
[1:48] 15 years, and then came here
[1:52] in 2009 to the US together with a
[1:56] colleague nun to uh start a monastery
[1:59] for nuns here.
[2:01] And we began in San Francisco
[2:03] in 2009.
[2:04] >> I'm just curious, this is a huge life
[2:07] decision to to
[2:09] shave your head and and put on robes and
[2:11] and leave the the quote-unquote regular
[2:14] world. What inspired that?
[2:16] >> I think what inspired that was, you
[2:18] know, on the one hand
[2:20] a real strong need for some kind of
[2:24] guidance or some kind of direction for
[2:28] my life because I had, you know, done
[2:31] all of the things I really always wanted
[2:33] to do. I was a worked in avant-garde
[2:36] theater. I studied cultural
[2:38] anthropology. These were the two things
[2:40] I always really wanted to do in my life,
[2:42] but then still
[2:44] I didn't feel I had arrived
[2:47] at a direction, you know, which I wanted
[2:50] to stay with.
[2:52] Because it didn't feel very
[2:55] stable to me. And then when I was 28, my
[2:59] mother suddenly died from a horse riding
[3:02] accident. And then after that, I felt a
[3:05] very strong need, you know, to
[3:06] understand what this is all about.
[3:09] And and that's how I found my first
[3:11] teacher through a chain of so-called
[3:14] coincidence which probably weren't, you
[3:16] know, but I stumbled into that monastery
[3:19] in it was about 4 hours north of the
[3:22] Malaysian border.
[3:23] And and there was this teacher, he was
[3:26] in his mid-80s.
[3:28] And I immediately
[3:30] understood upon seeing his presence and
[3:33] the way how he conducted himself that he
[3:36] could teach me something really
[3:38] important. And then at one point I
[3:40] started to feel a calling, you know, to
[3:42] become a nun and was really scared of
[3:45] that.
[3:46] And then I quickly got married because I
[3:48] thought that would help me, you know, to
[3:50] not have to ordain.
[3:52] It wasn't a very good choice. It was a
[3:54] bit haphazard and quick. So then 1 and
[3:57] 1/2 years later, I ended up in the
[3:59] monastery anyway.
[4:02] And then, you know, I didn't want to
[4:03] train in Thailand. I wanted to train,
[4:06] you know, with people from a similar
[4:08] culture than my own. And that took me
[4:10] then to England. The abbot in that
[4:13] monastery was actually from Washington.
[4:14] He was from Seattle.
[4:16] Ajahn Sumedho, quite a well-known
[4:18] teacher.
[4:20] And yeah, I
[4:21] I learned the trade in his monastery.
[4:25] And then left.
[4:28] Later on because there was not the
[4:31] opportunity for women to have full
[4:33] ordination. We were, you know, perpetual
[4:36] novices at that monastery. And I didn't
[4:38] really like that after a certain time.
[4:42] And now I'm a fully ordained Buddhist
[4:44] nun. I'm what's called a Bhikkhuni in
[4:47] the kind of Pali language.
[4:49] >> Well, I'm glad you're fully ordained.
[4:50] And I have
[4:52] um
[4:53] a lot of
[4:54] negative feelings about the the lineages
[4:57] that do not fully ordain women. Um I
[5:00] want to go back and also uh just note
[5:03] that I'm sorry to hear about what
[5:04] happened with your mother. And uh sorry
[5:06] about the divorce. And it sounds like
[5:08] there was a lot of
[5:09] a lot of stuff in there. Um there was
[5:12] something you said in the middle of your
[5:13] answer though that struck me as perhaps
[5:16] significant. You used the word unstable,
[5:19] I think. I'm wondering whether that
[5:21] might have been at the heart of your
[5:23] desire to
[5:26] spend your life in
[5:28] deep engagement with the Dharma. To, in
[5:30] other words, to become a nun. Because
[5:33] the death of your mother and uh
[5:36] really spoke to life's instability. The
[5:38] fact that you had achieved what you
[5:39] wanted to achieve in your studies and
[5:42] and in the world of dance, and yet
[5:44] weren't fully satisfied, also speaks to
[5:46] instability and um unsatisfactory the
[5:50] unsatisfactory nature of existence. So,
[5:52] I'm wondering if there's something in
[5:53] there that that is worth mining.
[5:55] >> And I think back
[5:57] you know, on on my times in the theater,
[5:59] it was a very successful avant-garde
[6:01] dance theater, and we really made
[6:04] beautiful productions where people got a
[6:06] lot of uplift, you know, for their
[6:08] heart, and a lot of beauty, a lot of uh
[6:12] magic, you know, you could say. But
[6:14] then, you know, when people go home,
[6:16] there wasn't a practice, you know, to
[6:18] continue to be
[6:21] have the heart in this open state, you
[6:24] know, which could
[6:26] connect with the beauty of life,
[6:28] building on that experience, you know,
[6:30] which art was able to instigate in
[6:33] people.
[6:34] Also, you know, studying cultural
[6:35] anthropology, I traveled very early in
[6:38] my life with my parents to Africa
[6:40] several times, and saw people on
[6:43] ancestral lands, how they how they were,
[6:46] how they walked, how they conducted
[6:48] their lives, and it
[6:50] gave me that deep um feeling, you know,
[6:52] that my culture had lost a groundedness
[6:56] on the earth, which was very significant
[6:59] loss. And then I went to universities
[7:02] and
[7:03] found out that they didn't really answer
[7:05] those questions, you know. So, there was
[7:07] something deeper. And then when I met my
[7:09] first teacher, Ajahn Buddhadasa,
[7:12] I had a feeling immediately he knows
[7:14] what I'm searching.
[7:15] And then, you know, as I started to
[7:18] learn about Buddhism, it became clear to
[7:21] me that there were a lot of layers of
[7:23] conditioning, assumption, expectations,
[7:27] desires, and fears, you know, which were
[7:30] kind of warping my experience.
[7:32] >> Well, thank you for humoring me while I
[7:34] um explored your
[7:36] your biography. Let me turn to our uh
[7:39] agenda such as it is for today. In
[7:41] preparation for this conversation,
[7:42] you've had um some conversations with
[7:45] Marisa Schnejderman, who's our senior
[7:47] producer, and I want to read back to you
[7:50] one of the lines that leapt out at me.
[7:52] Most of the self-improvement
[7:54] conversation uh asks the same question.
[7:58] How do I become a better, calmer, more
[8:00] effective version of myself?
[8:02] And
[8:04] your point is that that's the wrong
[8:06] question.
[8:07] >> What I was to see from teaching
[8:08] retreats, you know, and then having
[8:10] conversations with people who I mentor,
[8:12] that in the beginning of the path,
[8:14] people often have,
[8:16] you know, the idea that this is all
[8:18] about gaining more, you know, becoming
[8:22] more informed, to know more, to improve
[8:26] yourself. Whereas my experience is
[8:29] actually it's about letting go. It's
[8:31] about letting go of conditioning, you
[8:33] know, which doesn't serve us.
[8:35] Conditioning which keeps us limited
[8:39] and has a limiting effect on the way how
[8:42] we experience the world and how we
[8:44] experience ourselves.
[8:46] So, it's it's very much more about
[8:50] uh you know, finding some kind of a
[8:52] guidance in order to slow down enough so
[8:56] we can see
[8:58] how our mind is basically projecting
[9:02] unacknowledged patterns onto experience.
[9:07] >> Projecting
[9:08] unacknowledged patterns onto experience.
[9:11] That's That sounds really interesting,
[9:13] but I'm not sure I understand what it
[9:14] means. Can you
[9:16] >> Yeah.
[9:16] >> help me?
[9:17] >> Yes, you know, for example, I you know,
[9:18] I grew up in a small hotel in Austria
[9:20] when I was a little girl, and me and my
[9:24] brother, we we were left alone quite a
[9:26] lot, you know? And I was the older one,
[9:29] so I always felt responsible, you know,
[9:31] for my brother. I felt responsible to
[9:34] take care of everything, and I was
[9:36] afraid of, you know, that my parents
[9:39] wouldn't come back and all of those
[9:41] things. So, that was like a
[9:43] an experience of abandonment, you know,
[9:45] which I had on a regular basis. And then
[9:48] later on, I projected that fear onto
[9:52] many things which happened in my life. I
[9:55] was alone in community as an arm. So, I
[9:57] I had a tendency to take responsibility
[10:00] for a lot of things because I had grown
[10:02] up as the older sibling.
[10:04] You know, it took me a well long time to
[10:07] actually really consciously see what I
[10:10] was doing. And and to let go of that
[10:14] habit more and more. I felt also not
[10:16] happy about that I was always taking
[10:18] care of everything. But I didn't really
[10:21] see for quite some time how I was
[10:23] actually making that, you know? Nobody
[10:25] made me do it, but I I did it
[10:28] automatically without knowing it.
[10:31] >> So, we have these experiences in our
[10:34] early lives and we start to
[10:38] see the world in certain ways and behave
[10:41] in certain ways and we carry those
[10:43] inappropriately into situations
[10:46] throughout our adult lives and that
[10:47] causes suffering for ourselves and
[10:49] others.
[10:49] >> Yeah. Until we one day we see that, you
[10:52] know, and we also might sometimes need
[10:55] help, you know, from a therapist or for
[10:57] some kind of
[10:58] mentor, you know, who helps us to see
[11:00] it. And then as we are slowly, you know,
[11:03] stepping out and and consciously not
[11:06] enact the pattern,
[11:09] it releases like unacknowledged fears,
[11:12] you know?
[11:13] Because not doing the same thing you
[11:14] always did,
[11:16] you know, produces some kind of fear
[11:20] because I didn't, you know, I took all
[11:22] this responsibility because I was afraid
[11:24] if I don't do it, nobody's going to do
[11:26] it. But nobody did it because I was
[11:28] always stepping forward first. Until you
[11:30] see that all of those things is a
[11:33] conditioned kind of a constellation.
[11:36] Which if you put out one part, the whole
[11:39] thing collapses. And then it opens up,
[11:42] and then it might come back a few more
[11:44] times. But if you have seen it opening
[11:47] once, you know, you're never going to
[11:48] get
[11:49] caught in it again in the same way. And
[11:52] then slowly you step out of that, you'll
[11:54] end up in a bigger world, slightly
[11:56] bigger world, you know? And then that
[11:59] enables you to see the next filter, and
[12:01] the next filter. And that is the
[12:03] practice, letting go of one filter after
[12:06] the next. Not like with a sledgehammer,
[12:09] you know, but with a lot of mindfulness,
[12:12] with
[12:13] focusing, and with a lot of kindness
[12:15] also, you know.
[12:17] >> Let me tell you about one of my little
[12:18] taglines. Cuz I use it all the time
[12:20] because I love it. Here it is. The world
[12:22] is insane, but you don't have to be.
[12:24] It may feel like the world is on fire,
[12:26] and in many ways it is. And in this
[12:29] scenario, a lot of us get this idea in
[12:31] our heads that it's somehow
[12:32] self-indulgent to take care of
[12:34] ourselves. But in fact, taking care of
[12:36] your own mind
[12:37] and of course your body is how you
[12:40] resource yourself,
[12:41] how you get your together
[12:43] to be fully engaged, to be a node of
[12:46] sanity in an insane world. Which is why
[12:49] I'm very pleased to announce that two of
[12:50] my friends, two amazing meditation
[12:53] teachers, Sharon Salzberg and Andy
[12:54] Gonzalez, have created a course for my
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[12:59] specifically on this topic. It's an
[13:01] eight-part course. It consists of short
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[13:04] guided meditations also, as you might
[13:06] imagine, from Sharon and Andy. The
[13:08] course is aptly entitled "Taking Care of
[13:10] Yourself So You Can Take Care of the
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[13:26] the party by going to danharris.com.
[13:29] I love learning new languages not just
[13:31] because it's fun for me, but there's
[13:32] actually some evidence in the research
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[13:36] brain. Rosetta Stone is a great place to
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[14:56] What are the tools that you would
[14:57] recommend for being for stepping out of
[15:01] the matrix our our our self-created
[15:04] matrix?
[15:05] >> I would say, you know, what's called the
[15:06] Noble Eightfold Path, which is the core
[15:09] teaching of the Buddha. You know,
[15:11] mindfulness is one of eight qualities
[15:14] which need to be cultivated.
[15:16] So, that path, you know, is kind of the
[15:19] blueprint from how we can slowly but
[15:23] surely, become more conscious, you know,
[15:25] of what we are actually adding to
[15:28] experience. And then, once the mind has
[15:31] really seen clearly, the mind wants to
[15:33] let go. You know, the mind really wants
[15:36] to let go. The mind wants to be free. It
[15:38] will respond with letting go. You know,
[15:41] letting go is not something we can make
[15:43] happen, but we can put causes and
[15:46] conditions in place by conducting
[15:49] ourselves in a certain way, by
[15:51] investigating, you know, by keeping
[15:53] ethics, for example, and not, you know,
[15:56] kind of wasting our energy in doing a
[15:59] lot of stupid things, you know, which
[16:01] keep us get us into trouble. So, it's
[16:04] it's a it's a lifestyle which is
[16:08] dedicated to uh wanting to know more
[16:12] fully how we can unlock our potential.
[16:16] >> Let me just provide some context for the
[16:18] listener and viewer. I think actually
[16:20] the first teaching of of the Buddha was
[16:23] the noble eightfold path. It was
[16:24] actually embedded in in another list.
[16:27] The Buddha liked to make lists. So, the
[16:29] first speech he gave after he got
[16:31] enlightened was the four noble truths.
[16:33] And the fourth of the noble truths is
[16:35] actually a list within a list, and
[16:37] that's the eightfold path. And it's it's
[16:38] kind of a recipe for a good life or a
[16:40] recipe for enlightenment. And one of the
[16:44] entries in the eightfold path is
[16:46] mindfulness, but there's a lot of stuff
[16:47] in there about ethical conduct, right
[16:50] speech, right livelihood. And really one
[16:52] of the ideas there is that if you're not
[16:54] wasting your mental energy on
[16:56] keeping your lies straight or feeling
[16:59] regret for all of the bad things you've
[17:00] done that you have more energy for
[17:02] exploration and enlightenment and
[17:04] letting go, etc., etc. It does bring me
[17:07] to a question. You, as you've said, have
[17:09] spent 35 years in intensive mindfulness
[17:12] practice,
[17:13] not just mindfulness practice, other
[17:15] forms of
[17:17] Buddhist practice.
[17:18] And that has allowed you to step out of
[17:20] your ancient patterns. But what about
[17:24] for the rest of us?
[17:25] How do we get a taste of this?
[17:28] >> It's like in anything in life, you know,
[17:30] how much you put in, that's what you get
[17:32] back, you know?
[17:34] So, I think you have to just find out
[17:37] for yourself how much you want to
[17:38] invest, you know, of your life energy
[17:41] into this path. And then
[17:44] you get the returns, you know, from from
[17:47] that. And also in Buddhism we speak
[17:49] about this is not our first birth, you
[17:51] know, we come here and we might have
[17:53] practiced in other lifetimes. So, you
[17:56] know, somebody might come and be already
[18:00] much further along than somebody else.
[18:02] So, you know, I have much more
[18:03] propensity to understand and respond to
[18:06] the teachings. So, it really depends on
[18:08] where we are starting from. But it
[18:11] doesn't really matter, you know, you
[18:12] just do what you can and as you are kind
[18:16] of connecting deeper with the benefits
[18:19] of the teaching, it will become more and
[18:21] more attractive, you know? Like what I
[18:23] know about you, Daniel, and you had an
[18:25] experience, you know, which which opened
[18:28] you up, which broke your heart in a way
[18:30] open. In a conventional sense, it means,
[18:32] "Oh my god, this poor guy, you know, he
[18:34] had this bad experience." But in a
[18:37] spiritual sense, it's a great good
[18:38] fortune, you know? Like for me, when my
[18:41] mother died, was it a good thing or a
[18:43] bad thing? I mean, it was a bad thing on
[18:45] one way, but it was also for me, you
[18:48] know, I could say my mother gave birth
[18:50] to me twice. So, you know, in
[18:52] spirituality or in in practice, you
[18:55] can't really look at it with the same
[18:58] measuring stick as you look at material
[19:00] things. This is why it's confusing for
[19:03] some people and hard to understand
[19:06] because most people are so stuck, you
[19:08] know, in a materialistic way of looking.
[19:11] >> So, just to put a fine point on that,
[19:13] because I think this is an accessible
[19:15] teaching for anybody, whether they
[19:17] meditate or not.
[19:18] >> Right.
[19:19] >> Heartbreak can have
[19:22] a a very significant upside.
[19:25] >> Yeah. Breaking the heart open, you know,
[19:27] so that more life can land in us.
[19:30] Because, you know, a a heart before it's
[19:34] broken is is sometimes very kind of sure
[19:37] it knows how everything has to be.
[19:40] And then something happens, you know,
[19:41] which is so different. And and there's a
[19:44] breakdown.
[19:46] But it's also like an opening. And then
[19:49] we will
[19:51] take some time to heal from it.
[19:54] But I can say, you know, without any
[19:57] doubt that when I look back on all on
[19:59] the heartbreaks I've had, you know, like
[20:01] romantic and otherwise, they were in the
[20:03] end of the day they brought me closer to
[20:06] the way things are. You know, that the
[20:09] depths of the despair was a motivator,
[20:12] you know, to want to understand how this
[20:15] works. What is life, you know, how does
[20:17] it work? And how can I
[20:19] a position myself inside of it in in a
[20:23] way which which leads to greater wisdom
[20:26] and compassion. And and in my case, you
[20:29] know, it took me to this rather extreme
[20:33] profession, you know, which I'm having
[20:35] now. And I had quite a struggle myself
[20:38] with it, you know, because I didn't want
[20:40] to do 150%
[20:42] you know, dedication. I just wanted to
[20:44] do like 70 or something, you know.
[20:47] But then somehow, you know, I I couldn't
[20:50] stop it. It basically sucked me in, you
[20:53] know. And then I always thought I'm
[20:54] going to in 2 years I'm going to leave.
[20:57] In 2 years I'm going to leave. And I
[20:58] said that for
[21:00] 30 years or something. And now I just
[21:02] think, okay.
[21:03] I That's it, you know. I'll stay with
[21:06] this. It's fine, you know?
[21:08] But
[21:10] you know, life knows
[21:12] uh better than we do.
[21:14] And
[21:15] and I have meanwhile, you know, over the
[21:18] years, I have let go more and more. Now,
[21:20] I allow life to show me the way. The
[21:22] energy shows me the way. The Earth shows
[21:25] me the way. My experiences, you know,
[21:28] have
[21:29] delivered me into that kind of a trust
[21:31] because
[21:33] it always worked out, you know?
[21:35] Even my mind was desperately thinking it
[21:38] would not, you know?
[21:39] >> Okay. Let me just pick up on something
[21:41] you said there because I find it
[21:43] and this is uh apparently a
[21:45] characteristic, I'm learning, of you. I
[21:47] find uh so many of the things you're
[21:49] saying very, very interesting. You said
[21:51] something like having the trust to let
[21:54] life
[21:55] show you the way, and even the Earth
[21:58] show you the way.
[22:00] Can you explain a little bit more what
[22:01] you mean by that specifically?
[22:03] >> One of the important qualities, you
[22:06] know, to be able to walk the noble
[22:08] eightfold path you were just mentioning,
[22:10] is what in the Buddhist uh jargon is
[22:13] called saddha, and we can translate that
[22:16] as confidence, trust, and faith. That
[22:19] there is something much bigger than
[22:22] ourselves which
[22:25] we can listen into, which can show us
[22:28] the way. And in the context of the
[22:31] Buddhist teaching, it's it's called the
[22:33] Buddha Dharma or the Dhamma.
[22:35] And that's a Pali word. That's the
[22:39] language in which the teachings were
[22:40] laid down uh about 600 years after the
[22:44] Buddha's death. And Dhamma can be
[22:46] translated as as nature or laws of
[22:49] nature. So, to really, you know,
[22:51] understand that we are part of nature,
[22:55] and we are also operating according to
[22:58] the laws of nature,
[23:00] and that we can listen into the process
[23:04] we are already part of for guidance, you
[23:07] know. And you know, the Buddha has given
[23:09] us like a map, you know, how to walk
[23:13] that path and how to support ourselves
[23:16] so that we are maximally capable of
[23:19] listening into the Dharma.
[23:22] You know, and listening not just with
[23:24] our ears. The Dharma isn't talking to me
[23:26] and tell me, you know, "Sandha cheated
[23:28] to this. Sandha cheated to that." But
[23:30] it's more like listening with the whole
[23:33] body
[23:34] into that which gives me life, you know.
[23:37] >> I love this idea of of being able to
[23:40] listen more clearly to you could call
[23:43] the Dharma,
[23:44] or nature, the the rhythm of life to to
[23:48] understand how to proceed. And I'm
[23:51] curious again for for those of us who
[23:53] are laypeople,
[23:54] how can we tune our instrument so that
[23:58] we can
[23:59] you know, hear what reality is trying to
[24:01] tell us.
[24:02] >> Exactly. It's a very good way of saying
[24:03] it, you know, because it's an attunement
[24:06] process, you know. What's happening
[24:08] here, life, you know, it's like an
[24:09] orchestra of of countless species, you
[24:12] know, performing together. And and I
[24:15] think we are now at a threshold, you
[24:17] know, where we are starting to
[24:19] understand that this orchestra on this
[24:22] planet is not all about us, you know,
[24:24] about our Homo sapiens, our the human
[24:28] species, but it's it's about all of us,
[24:32] the more than human world and the human
[24:35] world working together
[24:37] to sustain
[24:40] the great opportunity of of living, you
[24:43] know, on this beautiful planet. And the
[24:46] Buddha has even been on record saying,
[24:49] you know, that the human birth,
[24:51] according to the Buddha, is the best
[24:53] opportunity for
[24:55] uh
[24:56] {quote} {unquote} progressing on
[24:58] spiritual path because, you know,
[25:00] according to the Buddhist teaching, it
[25:02] said, you know, there's different
[25:04] incarnations, you know, we can we can be
[25:07] born into either underneath the human
[25:09] birth. It's It's more kind difficult
[25:13] lives to to lead, you know, like
[25:15] where there's a lot of suffering or
[25:18] above the human realms, you know, where
[25:20] heavenly
[25:21] realms, you know, where there's so much
[25:24] pleasure that there's not much
[25:26] motivation for practice. So, the human
[25:28] realm is considered the perfect one, you
[25:31] know, with the perfect mix between
[25:34] pleasure and pain. So, there's a
[25:36] motivation for practice because there's
[25:38] enough pain, you know, but there's also
[25:41] enough pleasure to be able to listen to
[25:43] a podcast like this or read a book, you
[25:46] know, or meditate.
[25:47] >> Just want to jump in and provide a
[25:48] little context there. What Ayya
[25:50] Santacitta's talking about there is the
[25:51] Buddhist cosmology of these various
[25:53] realms of existence. So, there's the
[25:56] animal realm,
[25:58] um and given the nature of life as a
[26:00] golden retriever, there's a lot of good
[26:02] stuff to it, but it doesn't necessarily
[26:04] lend itself to meditation practice.
[26:06] Although golden retrievers are very much
[26:08] in the in the present moment.
[26:10] And then there's the human realm, which
[26:13] we'll come back to. And then
[26:15] there are the heavenly realms where you
[26:17] apparently have these celestial
[26:19] creatures that live in states of with a
[26:21] lot of pleasure. And so you're there as
[26:23] Santacitta said that not a lot of
[26:26] motivation to practice, but in this
[26:27] in-between space where
[26:30] we are existing as humans, it's the
[26:33] right mixture of pleasure and pain that
[26:35] can motivate us to
[26:37] meditate and engage in other forms of
[26:40] mind training that can wake us up and
[26:43] get us back to seeing through our
[26:44] patterns so that we're not owned by
[26:46] them. How did I do there? Was that
[26:47] roughly correct?
[26:48] >> Yeah, right. Exactly. That's what I was
[26:50] wanting to
[26:52] point out, yeah.
[26:54] >> So again, I just want to practical tip
[26:56] in order to develop this attunement that
[26:58] you're talking about. Let's talk about
[27:00] some tools. I mean I obviously
[27:02] meditation is one of them.
[27:05] Is there more to say specifically about
[27:06] meditation? Are there other tools that
[27:09] we should also talk about?
[27:10] >> I think you know meditation is one and
[27:13] then
[27:14] ethics is one you know because then you
[27:16] don't have to constantly you know clean
[27:18] up after yourself then you look after
[27:21] your health you know after your body
[27:24] then also right livelihood is also
[27:27] important you know to make the money you
[27:29] need to live make it in a in an ethical
[27:32] way as ethical as possible you know. I
[27:35] think that's that is like on a worldly
[27:37] level you know the the very important
[27:40] points yeah. And then maybe you know
[27:43] find a teacher find a guide who knows
[27:46] who's a bit further along on the path
[27:48] than yourself who can maybe help you you
[27:51] know to
[27:52] point out the way
[27:55] and have maybe some mentor or some
[27:57] teacher to meet on a regular basis.
[28:01] Maybe I'm trying a group who meditates
[28:04] maybe regularly because it's easier you
[28:06] know to to do it if you have community.
[28:10] >> Yeah, and the Buddha talked a lot about
[28:11] this. I mean I've been told that the
[28:13] story I'm about to tell is
[28:16] not quite accurate but but it is a story
[28:18] that gets passed around a lot that the
[28:21] Buddha one day was approached by his
[28:23] cousin and attendant Ananda.
[28:26] Ananda was like his constant companion
[28:28] but at some point Ananda had been away
[28:30] hanging out with some other monks and he
[28:32] came back all enthusiastic to the to the
[28:34] Buddha and said you know just hanging
[28:35] out with these
[28:36] other monks and nuns it's it's so it's
[28:40] so important it's so enlivening it's
[28:42] like half the path and the Buddha said
[28:45] no no no it's it's it's the whole path.
[28:47] >> Yeah, correct. That's what he said,
[28:49] yeah.
[28:50] Because it can be, you know, that
[28:51] sometimes we come into dead end roads or
[28:55] into some kind of a difficult situation,
[28:58] and it's really that relationship with
[29:01] others can really keep help us to keep
[29:04] going, you know, until we are strong
[29:06] again and can continue. I have
[29:08] definitely experienced that in my life
[29:11] several times, you know, where it was
[29:13] really a relationship to a friend
[29:16] which kept me going, you know, when I
[29:18] was hardly capable to go, you know, but
[29:20] at least I didn't turn back or anything,
[29:24] because I had that I could lean onto
[29:26] that. Well, lean into the the schedule
[29:30] in the monastery, for example, you know,
[29:31] monasteries are created in a way for
[29:34] that, you know, that
[29:36] if you have a little breakdown or you
[29:37] can't go on, then the the schedule just
[29:41] carries you, you know, until you can get
[29:43] on your feet again. And you can create
[29:46] something like that through friends, you
[29:48] know, and the family members who give
[29:50] you that kind of care.
[29:52] >> What about for people who think like I
[29:54] don't actually have that many supportive
[29:55] people in my life, and I certainly don't
[29:57] have access to a great teacher or
[29:59] mentor?
[30:00] >> I think that's something, you know, we
[30:02] can we can look for. There's lots of
[30:05] sanghas, you know,
[30:06] sangha is the Pali word for community.
[30:10] To find us a a little community in your
[30:13] area, you know, which meets either in
[30:15] person or if that's not possible,
[30:17] there's also online communities where
[30:19] you know, they meet maybe once a week. I
[30:22] myself have a little online community.
[30:24] We meet on Wednesdays, for example.
[30:27] I think that's very, very valuable. And
[30:29] then, you know, going on retreats
[30:31] sometimes, which is a community thing as
[30:33] well. If somebody really wants to find a
[30:36] teacher, like I you know, after my
[30:38] mother died, I felt a very strong urge
[30:41] to find a teacher. That was like in
[30:43] 1988. That was almost 40 years ago.
[30:46] There was no internet. I was in Austria.
[30:49] I mean, I didn't know at all how to go
[30:51] about it, but I started to pray. You
[30:54] know, I started to ask for it that I
[30:57] need to find my teacher and I ask for
[30:59] guidance. And 1 and 1/2 years later, I
[31:01] found him. And I don't, you know,
[31:03] necessarily expect people to pray, but I
[31:06] mean, you know, just put out the word
[31:08] and say, you know, whoever is out here
[31:11] in this universe, you know, I I really
[31:13] need a teacher. Please help. It's going
[31:15] to happen. It's It's a very mysterious
[31:18] process, really. Once you have gotten
[31:21] like a hint of the of the fact, you
[31:24] know, that this universe is intelligent
[31:27] and responsive,
[31:29] it's awesome. You know, there's really a
[31:31] feeling of being part of something so
[31:34] much bigger than oneself and a sense of
[31:37] belonging, you know, which is very
[31:39] energizing
[31:40] and exciting and awe-inspiring, you
[31:43] know? And And it's that kind of opening
[31:47] which kind of is magnifying
[31:51] your aspiration.
[31:54] >> I'm just going to press you on that
[31:55] again because I I I love what you're
[31:57] saying and I can imagine people
[32:00] thinking, I just don't feel it. I don't
[32:03] I get intellectually this is a
[32:07] you know, a majestic, mysterious
[32:09] universe in which we're living, but I
[32:11] don't feel it for myself.
[32:12] >> You know, and that's exactly that takes
[32:14] us back to what you said then about the
[32:16] attunement, you know? Because
[32:19] you can't feel it yet because there's
[32:21] all of those filters and all of those
[32:23] expectations and assumption how it needs
[32:27] to be in order to be something. We have
[32:30] all of those filters, our whole
[32:32] equipment, you know, is dull
[32:35] and it hasn't been
[32:38] polished and sharpened, you know, for
[32:41] the time it it needs to. It's like
[32:44] learning a different language, you know?
[32:46] If you learn a different language, I
[32:47] mean, it's not going to be a one-day
[32:49] affair, you know, or even learn to drive
[32:52] a car or play an instrument. It requires
[32:56] to go through the frustration of
[32:58] thinking, "I can't do this. I don't know
[33:00] how to do it, you know? It's so much
[33:02] work." All of that.
[33:05] It's It's not different from learning
[33:07] any other skill. It requires our input,
[33:10] our dedication. And this is why it's so
[33:12] important, you know, to have a teacher
[33:14] or mentor who is already ahead of us,
[33:17] who has no more doubt, you know, it can
[33:19] be done. And who remembers how he or she
[33:22] was, you know, when the when the
[33:24] instrument wasn't yet tuned. And then he
[33:27] can say, "Just keep going. Keep going,
[33:29] you know?" That's what my teachers told
[33:31] me when I didn't know what I was doing.
[33:33] But I just looked at them and I I knew
[33:37] they were they spoke the truth, you
[33:39] know?
[33:39] >> That sounds right to me.
[33:41] >> Like when somebody asks, you know, how
[33:42] does chocolate taste? Ask somebody who
[33:45] already has eaten it. They can't really
[33:47] exactly explain, but they can say it's
[33:50] so good, you need to try. You know what
[33:52] I mean? And then, as soon as you get
[33:54] your hands on it, you try and then you
[33:56] know for yourself. But first you need to
[33:59] take it take their word, you know? You
[34:01] don't need to believe it. But to just
[34:04] not negate the possibility. And And for
[34:06] that, we need a role model, you know,
[34:09] who talks to us because they kind of
[34:11] there's an alchemy or something, you
[34:13] know? It couldn't be anybody. It has to
[34:15] be somebody who is is the right one for
[34:18] you, you know?
[34:19] >> Yeah, and if you don't have access to a
[34:20] great teacher, I mean, reading great
[34:22] books, listening to people like you on
[34:25] podcasts, signing up for online groups.
[34:29] >> Yeah, yeah.
[34:30] >> There are lots of options, options that
[34:31] didn't exist in 1988.
[34:33] >> Absolutely not. Yeah, yeah. And
[34:35] sometimes it can even be enough, you
[34:37] know, to just look at an image of
[34:39] someone, you know, who inspires you. And
[34:41] and then if we are really giving
[34:44] ourselves to the
[34:46] to the quest, you know,
[34:48] there is a response. And we need to give
[34:51] up the idea it's going to be exactly the
[34:53] way we want it to be because it might be
[34:55] completely different, you know? And
[34:57] that's what is so difficult for people,
[35:00] you know, who have had a lot of comfort
[35:02] and a lot of um
[35:04] agency and control in their lives
[35:07] because this is something you can't
[35:09] control because the whole spiritual path
[35:11] is about giving up control.
[35:14] You know, and this is like kind of oh my
[35:16] god, you know? But that's what it is.
[35:19] And you know, when you had your
[35:20] experience, you gave up control because
[35:23] you you were forced to.
[35:25] And then afterwards, you know, you got a
[35:27] taste of something. You knew what you
[35:30] were uh looking for.
[35:32] And then it's just like feeling your
[35:34] way, you know?
[35:35] >> Just just to say for for viewers and
[35:37] listeners who
[35:38] >> Mhm.
[35:39] >> aren't
[35:40] familiar with every aspect of my
[35:41] backstory, the experience that uh you're
[35:43] referring to is the panic attack I had
[35:45] on television more than 20 years ago,
[35:48] which kind of set me off on on the path
[35:50] toward meditation and
[35:52] yeah, it sucked in the moment and I'm
[35:54] very glad it happened.
[35:56] >> Yeah.
[35:57] That's what I mean, you know? This is
[35:59] like the essence of the path is, you
[36:02] know, it sucked when it happened, but
[36:04] I'm very glad it happened because
[36:05] otherwise I would have stayed in that
[36:07] small world.
[36:08] >> Yes. Yes.
[36:09] >> You like that, you know?
[36:10] >> My meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein,
[36:13] likes to say, "Don't waste your
[36:14] suffering." And
[36:16] >> exactly.
[36:17] >> Uh I was giving a commencement address
[36:19] the other day to a bunch of 18-year-olds
[36:21] and uh you know, just making this case
[36:24] that life is not an escalator. It isn't
[36:27] it it it is not going to be an unbroken
[36:29] upward trajectory. It's going to have
[36:30] these setbacks, but the key cognitive
[36:33] reframe is you don't have to enjoy the
[36:36] setbacks, but eventually wake up and see
[36:38] that they are opportunities.
[36:39] >> Yeah, exactly. You know, in the days of
[36:41] very beautiful saying
[36:44] of
[36:45] Ajahn Chah, who is the founder of the
[36:47] lineage I I trained in, and he said, you
[36:50] know, there's two kinds of suffering,
[36:53] the suffering which leads in circles and
[36:56] the suffering which leads out of
[36:57] suffering. That's the approach we need
[36:59] to do because there will always be
[37:02] things, you know, going quote unquote
[37:04] wrong, but what we do with those things
[37:07] makes all of the difference, you know.
[37:12] >> In the memo that you and Marisa
[37:16] Schneiderman prepared for me in order to
[37:18] get ready for this discussion, one of
[37:21] the things that I I noticed that you
[37:24] wanted to talk about was patience.
[37:27] Why is patience such an important
[37:29] quality of mind?
[37:30] >> I mean, I was like younger, you know, I
[37:33] always thought patience is something for
[37:35] old ladies, you know, who just like have
[37:38] given up on life, you know? And and I'm
[37:41] just generally quite impatient compared
[37:44] with other people, and my father was
[37:47] also quite impatient. And then later on,
[37:49] you know, when I started to meditate, I
[37:51] understood how much fear under
[37:53] impatience is, how much fear
[37:56] of not being able to wait, you know, of
[37:58] of wanting to know it immediately, and
[38:01] and not being able to tolerate not
[38:03] knowing, you know, uncertainty. And what
[38:05] a great asset that is in one's life if
[38:09] we can tolerate that, you know, if we
[38:11] can wait, if we can open up, if we can
[38:14] trust. It's It's a huge
[38:17] benefit to our lives not interfering too
[38:20] quickly and allowing life to speak for
[38:23] itself.
[38:24] >> What do you recommend as tools, here I
[38:27] go again, for training patience, for
[38:31] training tolerance in uncertainty?
[38:33] >> I think, you know, meditation is that
[38:35] tool, really. Because in meditation, we
[38:37] usually either sit or walk,
[38:40] and it's not about achieving anything,
[38:43] but it's more being with what is, and
[38:46] not trying to change what is, but
[38:49] allowing it to fully show itself. And
[38:52] that requires, you know, slowing down,
[38:54] stopping,
[38:56] and
[38:57] observing habitual responses and not
[39:01] acting on them.
[39:02] But having the capacity to hold steady
[39:06] and experience
[39:08] the
[39:10] urges without necessarily reacting, but
[39:15] choosing to respond, but not being
[39:18] forced to react. And that's a vast
[39:20] difference, you know, between reacting
[39:22] or responding. As you know, it's this
[39:25] all makes all of the difference in a
[39:27] meeting, in a relationship, with your
[39:29] children, with your husband. It's It's
[39:32] always makes a huge difference, you
[39:36] know, if you can choose to respond
[39:40] after you've taken a breath or two, and
[39:42] not immediately have to react because
[39:44] you can't hold
[39:46] the discomfort of the energy.
[39:48] >> You know, there's a way in which
[39:49] meditation can feel either stupid or
[39:53] impossible because you sit, you try to
[39:56] focus on your breath, and then you're
[39:57] just ambushed by all of these
[39:59] distractions. That is the thing, being
[40:02] willing to sit with the fact that your
[40:04] mind is so unruly, and having the grit
[40:07] and the perseverance to start again and
[40:09] again and again. That's not like a
[40:12] beginner practice. That That is the
[40:14] practice.
[40:15] >> Yeah, exactly. A million times, two
[40:18] million times, to just come back to the
[40:21] breath or whatever your object is of
[40:23] meditation, yeah? You know, to have the
[40:25] capacity to
[40:27] come back to it again and again. And you
[40:29] know, what we are training is, you know,
[40:31] letting go of those patterns and coming
[40:34] back and letting go and coming back. And
[40:37] it doesn't matter how often, but what
[40:39] matters is as soon as you are noticing
[40:41] that you are caught, you let go and you
[40:43] come back, you know?
[40:45] And that's that's it. It's, you know,
[40:47] and what I often say to people at the
[40:49] beginning of a meditation, I say, you
[40:51] know, meditation isn't about having a
[40:53] different experience than from the
[40:55] experience you are having, but it's
[40:58] having it consciously. It's a very
[41:00] ordinary
[41:01] thing, you know? It's not about
[41:03] wonderful, you know, experiences. Even
[41:06] sometimes it can happen, you know? But
[41:08] that's not the reason why we meditate.
[41:10] We meditate in order to be less caught
[41:13] in those patterns, you know?
[41:15] >> Yes, because if you sit and watch your
[41:18] mind and all of its ridiculousness and
[41:22] and glory, after a while you you just
[41:25] don't take it as seriously and you
[41:28] develop the capacity to withstand it
[41:31] when you know, the thought pops into
[41:33] your mind like
[41:34] to say or do something horrible, you
[41:37] just can after a while just notice, "Oh,
[41:38] it's just a thought. I can let it go."
[41:40] And all of that power comes from doing
[41:44] this very ordinary
[41:46] of sitting and trying to focus on your
[41:48] breath and getting humiliated over and
[41:50] over.
[41:51] >> And in the beginning, you know, we met
[41:54] here people saying what you just said
[41:56] and I just said, but we can't believe it
[41:58] because we think it must be something
[42:00] much more
[42:02] special than that, you know? But it is.
[42:04] It's so ordinary. And because it's so
[42:08] ordinary, it's hard to explain the power
[42:10] it has, yeah? Because the power lies in
[42:13] the capacity to no longer identify with
[42:16] those patterns and to choose
[42:20] to just let them go. You know, let them
[42:22] do their thing. They're like the clouds
[42:24] in the sky. We don't need to grasp the
[42:26] clouds. We can them just give it the
[42:28] space they need. They're just going to
[42:31] come and go. None of my business, you
[42:33] know.
[42:33] >> And we said this earlier, but I think it
[42:34] bears repeating at this juncture that
[42:36] this practice of meditation, which
[42:38] really anybody can do,
[42:41] um it is not, you know, for nuns and
[42:43] monks or for podcasters. It It really is
[42:47] for everybody.
[42:48] The Over time, what happens as you are
[42:50] less caught by your thoughts
[42:53] is you can attune. You You which is
[42:56] where we began this conversation. This
[42:57] is how you can start to
[43:00] you know, and this sounds kind of
[43:01] highfalutin, but like listen to the
[43:04] Dharma, listen to the world, listen to
[43:06] reality.
[43:07] >> Yeah, exactly. That's how it is, yeah.
[43:09] Because there's more space, you know,
[43:11] and we don't need to get involved with
[43:13] every little thing. And then there is
[43:15] the capacity, there's the spaciousness
[43:19] to listen to
[43:21] something much bigger than yourself and
[43:24] feel a sense of belonging and even a
[43:28] sense of guidance, you know, if you want
[43:30] to use that word.
[43:31] >> In your conversation with Marissa, one
[43:33] one thing you said that is often you
[43:35] pointed out that one of the missing
[43:37] pieces in the West
[43:39] for people interested in
[43:41] self-improvement, personal growth,
[43:42] spiritual development, whatever you want
[43:44] to call it, is devotion. What does that
[43:47] mean, devotion?
[43:48] >> You know, when when Buddhism was
[43:50] exported, quote unquote, you know, like
[43:52] 30, 40 years ago, with Joseph Goldstein
[43:56] and Jack Kornfield, Sharon Salzberg and
[43:58] others, you know, who brought it from
[44:00] Asia and my teacher Ajahn Sumedho
[44:03] brought it from Asia to to the West in
[44:05] order to be able to land it at IMS and
[44:08] at Spirit Rock and other centers, it had
[44:11] to be stripped from folklore, so to say,
[44:16] you know, because people had no
[44:17] tolerance for that. And they didn't want
[44:20] to learn about, you know, the more
[44:22] traditional ways, the religious forms,
[44:26] you know, from Asia. They only wanted
[44:29] the meditation.
[44:31] And there was the understanding that,
[44:33] you know, if you meditate really hard,
[44:36] then you're going to get enlightened and
[44:38] then you're going to be done. But then,
[44:40] you know, people were meditating for 20,
[44:42] 30 years, and it became clear, you know,
[44:44] there is more needed than just following
[44:48] uh
[44:49] the meditation instructions, because we
[44:51] need also to take care of our heart.
[44:54] And devotional practices and a
[44:57] devotional approach to that which is
[44:59] much vaster than ourselves can give us
[45:02] the buoyancy, you know, to stay engaged
[45:04] with the practice
[45:06] and to open to that which is difficult
[45:09] to meet in ourselves, you know. And also
[45:12] like a sense of lineage, you know, that
[45:14] we are part of a lineage which has been
[45:17] transported, you know, from Asia to the
[45:19] West and is over 2,600 years old and and
[45:24] a sense of, you know, the ancient ones,
[45:26] the ancestors, those who have passed
[45:29] down the teaching over the centuries.
[45:32] And yeah, and the sense of respect and
[45:36] and reverence for that, too.
[45:37] >> So, what does a devotional practice look
[45:40] like?
[45:40] >> There's formal devotional practices like
[45:43] chanting, bowing, making offerings,
[45:48] reciting certain prayers. And that's
[45:52] like a more formal practice, but it can
[45:54] also be like a general practice of
[45:57] gratitude, you know, for everything
[45:58] which gives us life and which enables us
[46:01] to to practice. And at this day and age
[46:04] I would also say you know to recognize
[46:08] the earth as the foundation of that
[46:12] which gives life to our bodies, you
[46:14] know, the more than human world, you
[46:16] know, as a very important source of
[46:19] intelligence in this day and age, you
[46:22] know, where we start to see more and
[46:24] more clearly that the human species is
[46:27] one of the youngest species on this
[46:29] planet and quite immature, you know,
[46:31] very self obsessed and it's all about
[46:35] us. What can we get out of this, you
[46:37] know? And we have kind of maneuvered
[46:40] ourselves into a cul-de-sac, you know, I
[46:43] feel. There is a need for the humility
[46:47] which is necessary to understand that
[46:50] you know, we're dependent on all other
[46:52] species for for everything. We have
[46:55] everything we are, we constantly eat,
[46:58] drink and breathe the planet, you know,
[47:01] and we never cut the umbilical cord to
[47:03] the planet. Without this
[47:07] biosphere, you know, we cannot live.
[47:09] This is not a stage on which we are
[47:12] walking around taking what we like and
[47:14] throwing away what we don't like, but we
[47:16] are participants if we like it or not,
[47:18] you know, and it's time for us to wake
[47:21] up to that truth, I think.
[47:23] >> And in terms of waking up to that truth,
[47:26] is it as simple as spending more time
[47:27] outside?
[47:28] >> No, I think it's not that simple. I
[47:30] mean, that's definitely very helpful,
[47:32] you know, but already when I was a child
[47:34] and I was really interested in
[47:36] indigenous ways of
[47:39] looking at life that brought me later on
[47:41] to study cultural anthropology and so
[47:44] on. And at this day and age now, you
[47:47] know, I feel
[47:50] that Western cultures can learn a lot
[47:53] from indigenous ways of looking at life,
[47:56] you know, who see the earth as a living
[47:59] intelligent being we belong to
[48:03] like cells, you know, inside of a big
[48:05] body.
[48:06] And a cell doesn't need to know, you
[48:08] know, what it's doing. It just attunes
[48:10] to the bigger orchestra of that vast
[48:13] body. And and that's what I
[48:16] work with at this time, you know, that
[48:20] the Buddhist teaching have given me a
[48:21] lot of capacity, you know, to work with
[48:25] my mind.
[48:26] But the Buddhist teaching was also
[48:28] transmitted to us inside of patriarchy,
[48:32] you know, inside of the worldview of
[48:35] domination and
[48:37] the assumption of what I call human
[48:39] supremacy assumption, you know, that
[48:41] thinking this is all about us here.
[48:44] This planet with all of its beautiful
[48:47] and terrifying things relating it all
[48:50] back to us, you know, very human-centric
[48:53] way of looking and
[48:55] I like to
[48:57] orient myself inside of a more
[49:00] indigenous way of looking, which is
[49:02] about relating to the earth
[49:05] as a living intelligent being which has
[49:08] been able to sustain life for almost 5
[49:12] billion years, you know, without anybody
[49:14] telling her how to do it.
[49:16] It's an inbuilt intelligence.
[49:19] And I think, you know, this is for me a
[49:23] new way how I understand the Dharma to
[49:27] present itself. Because, you know, the
[49:29] teachings, the core teachings of the
[49:31] Buddha Dharma are timeless, but they are
[49:35] passed on inside of a packaging which is
[49:38] historical, you know, and we are now at
[49:41] the threshold
[49:43] where we are basically stepping out of a
[49:46] dying paradigm,
[49:49] you know,
[49:50] industrialist capitalist patriarch
[49:53] patriarchal paradigm of domination into
[49:57] a new way of understanding ourselves
[50:01] as
[50:02] being part of a living intelligent
[50:04] Earth.
[50:05] >> It's interesting that I I
[50:08] sometimes think
[50:11] I'm not sure whether the paradigm is
[50:12] dying, but if it doesn't die, we will
[50:15] die.
[50:16] >> Yeah.
[50:17] It is dying. If we look at it
[50:20] with the mind of the old paradigm, it
[50:23] all looks impossible.
[50:25] But I also like to quote, you know,
[50:27] Albert Einstein who is on record for
[50:29] saying, "You can't solve a problem from
[50:32] the same level of consciousness which
[50:34] created it."
[50:35] So, you know, if you look at all of
[50:37] what's happening from the dominator
[50:39] paradigm, that you have to fix it, and
[50:42] you look at it, it looks impossible. But
[50:45] if I look at it in a way like, I would
[50:47] like to volunteer to become part of the
[50:50] immune system of the Earth, and then I
[50:52] don't need to It's not up to me to fix
[50:54] all of this, you know? I don't think
[50:56] human beings are per se bad or have done
[50:59] something wrong. It's just immature, you
[51:02] know? Our species is like maybe in a
[51:04] toddler stage, you know? It's all about
[51:07] me, and if I don't get it, I'm going to
[51:09] throw a tantrum, like the president of
[51:11] the United States is a toddler, you
[51:13] know, on the world stage, and it's
[51:15] rather embarrassing.
[51:17] >> Mhm.
[51:18] >> You know, he drives it really home how
[51:21] immature
[51:23] we are, you know, that somebody like
[51:25] that can be keep holding such an
[51:27] important office, and nobody can stop
[51:30] him.
[51:31] That means, you know, it's all really
[51:33] quite out of control right now.
[51:36] And I think this is um a really big
[51:39] teaching moment. You know, more and more
[51:41] cracks
[51:43] in the old paradigm are showing up, and
[51:45] rather than trying to glue those cracks
[51:48] together again and keep on going with
[51:50] the old ways of doing things, to listen
[51:53] into the cracks and see what wants to be
[51:56] born.
[51:57] And listening and making ourselves
[52:00] available, attuning to that that's what
[52:03] I try to do these days, you know?
[52:09] >> Let me link
[52:11] your
[52:12] I believe incisive critique of the
[52:14] species at this moment with
[52:17] uh something you talked about earlier,
[52:19] which is patience. So, I look at Trump
[52:21] and um you know, I find myself kind of
[52:24] daily refreshing the New York Times
[52:27] Trump approval rating tracker and find
[52:30] it incredibly disturbing that I think as
[52:33] of this recording he's at 38%. But,
[52:36] given everything he's done, the attacks
[52:38] on the rule of law, the pardoning uh of
[52:41] all the January 6 folks, the you know,
[52:44] lurching into war clearly without having
[52:48] thought about it, the sort of casual
[52:50] cruelty toward our most vulnerable, I
[52:53] could go on. The unhinged social media
[52:55] posts, the the tsunami of lies, and 38%
[53:01] of Americans are cool with this. Like,
[53:03] they approve. And that makes me
[53:05] impatient.
[53:07] Yeah, I also get impatient when I think
[53:08] about the state of the planet um and uh
[53:13] in light of all the things you said
[53:14] about the fact that we kind of need to
[53:17] evolve or uh potentially perish. And I
[53:21] feel impatient.
[53:23] Um and I'm So, I'm just wondering, how
[53:24] do you
[53:26] hold these views about the potential for
[53:28] change while imbibing
[53:33] all of the evidence to the contrary?
[53:36] >> Just what you said. I also feel
[53:37] impatient, you know? But, I'm not going
[53:40] to kind of
[53:41] uh
[53:42] act from that place, you know? I also
[53:45] feel impatient. I also feel kind of
[53:48] uncertain how it's going to work out,
[53:51] but I try to
[53:53] channel my energy in a way which is most
[53:57] effective to be part of the change I
[53:59] want to see, you know? To become part of
[54:02] the immune system of the earth, I do
[54:04] what I can, and then I need to let go,
[54:07] you know?
[54:08] And you you obviously do what you can,
[54:11] and if everybody do do what they can,
[54:14] that's how it's going to happen, you
[54:16] know?
[54:16] >> Do what you can
[54:18] >> Yeah.
[54:19] >> let go.
[54:20] >> Yeah.
[54:21] >> That seems like a recipe for sanity.
[54:23] It's like you you have agency, you're
[54:25] taking action, and you recognize like
[54:28] most of this is totally out of my
[54:30] control.
[54:31] >> But you know, but if let's say if if
[54:33] everybody would see that way, we would
[54:35] be living in a much more sane world, but
[54:38] obviously, you know, there's lots of
[54:40] people who are still so caught in the
[54:42] paradigm that there is some big man who
[54:44] is going to fix it for us, you know,
[54:47] because this is
[54:48] you know, this is the old paradigm, it's
[54:50] written all over the Bible, it's written
[54:52] all over the patriarchy, in the
[54:56] unwillingness to take responsibility to
[54:59] be accountable
[55:01] being here on this planet, you know?
[55:02] >> I do want to reference something that
[55:04] came up in the prep document that you
[55:07] that Marissa prepared for me. You
[55:08] actually did have a a very practical
[55:11] idea in terms of cultivating patience
[55:14] that we can do the next time we find
[55:16] ourselves waiting in line.
[55:17] >> You can train yourself in patience in
[55:22] very ordinary circumstances, like
[55:24] waiting in line at the checkout at the
[55:26] supermarket.
[55:28] And and then waiting in line wherever
[55:32] you need to wait in line, and rather
[55:34] than seeing that as oh my god, you know,
[55:36] I'm wasting my time.
[55:39] You can say, "No, I'm using that now to
[55:42] train my capacity for patience." You
[55:44] know, and and I really have had very
[55:46] lovely experiences waiting in the line
[55:49] in the supermarket. And it's not very
[55:51] often that there's impatient people.
[55:53] I've had very
[55:56] you know, really good experiences and so
[55:58] a lot of of kindness
[56:01] being enacted in this way. It's a great
[56:04] human quality. And once you have seen
[56:06] it, you know, how good it feels if I
[56:10] observe other people who do that in a in
[56:13] an elegant way or in a respectful way, I
[56:16] want to be like that, you know.
[56:17] >> Yeah, you see it in parents, good
[56:19] parents
[56:20] uh are patient.
[56:21] >> Many of the dumbest things I've done
[56:24] emerge out of rushing.
[56:27] >> And rushing comes from the inability
[56:30] to hold steady
[56:32] the you know, the contracted energy
[56:34] because it's kind of painful and it
[56:37] feels like there's enough space, you
[56:39] know, in me to allow it
[56:42] to just arise and cease, you know.
[56:45] But then when you have done it a few
[56:47] times, you know, it's it's not true.
[56:49] It's just
[56:50] it's just an idea. And this is so much
[56:53] isn't it part of a consumerist culture
[56:55] is all about immediate gratification.
[56:58] It's so much part of the paradigm. You
[57:01] know, we need to train ourselves
[57:02] consciously, yeah.
[57:03] >> Speaking of training, there was
[57:04] something else I noticed that you
[57:06] recommend, tuning into the feeling of
[57:08] longing in your heart.
[57:10] >> You could say
[57:11] you know, the GPS for the path.
[57:14] The the the longing because the heart
[57:17] already knows
[57:19] you know, that we belong to something so
[57:22] much bigger than ourselves and and
[57:24] there's this longing which gets often
[57:27] kind of sidetracked in consumer
[57:31] culture, you know, about shopping more
[57:33] and getting
[57:35] this or getting that and then feeling
[57:37] satisfied probably for a moment, but
[57:40] then the longing keeps on going. Because
[57:43] the longing wants something much more
[57:47] sophisticated than just buying the next
[57:50] thing.
[57:51] It's It's a sense of purpose in life and
[57:55] and a sense of belonging. Meditation,
[57:57] you know, I feel is is a technology, you
[58:00] know, which can connect us with that.
[58:02] And as we are starting to sense into
[58:05] that, you know, it's like uh
[58:08] an intuitive
[58:09] knowing.
[58:11] You know, which which can guide us. You
[58:13] know, things happen in our lives. A book
[58:15] falls into your hands. A friend sends
[58:18] you some information. There is a a
[58:21] mystery to to that guidance. You know,
[58:24] once you acknowledge
[58:26] the longing for
[58:29] that
[58:30] it just responds, you know? It's It's
[58:33] very hard to describe, but I have
[58:36] experienced it and I think you have
[58:38] experienced it, too.
[58:39] >> There's something about
[58:41] turning
[58:42] this nagging sense of insufficiency,
[58:45] this like nagging sense of never enough
[58:48] to our advantage. That if you if you
[58:50] really see it clearly, it's onward
[58:53] leading.
[58:53] >> Exactly. That's what I meant to say.
[58:55] Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
[58:57] You know, because if you think it's all
[58:58] about because that the way, you know,
[59:00] how we are informed
[59:03] in this culture is
[59:05] if you have that nagging sense of not
[59:07] enough, you haven't bought the right
[59:09] things, right?
[59:10] And then
[59:12] if you start to
[59:13] meet other people, you know, who have
[59:16] related to that nagging sense in
[59:18] different way like you or me or my
[59:20] teachers and so on,
[59:23] then you have a sense that there is
[59:25] something different. And then your
[59:29] capacity to look for that fulfillment
[59:32] opens up into other avenues of of
[59:36] possibility.
[59:37] And that's what a teacher or a mentor is
[59:40] here, you know, for to stretch your
[59:43] assumption, to stretch your
[59:44] expectations,
[59:46] to help you to open up some space for
[59:48] something new to enter your life. And I
[59:51] think that's what you try to do with
[59:53] your podcast, isn't it? To give people a
[59:55] hint that there is other possibilities
[59:58] to meet that sense of not enoughness.
[1:00:03] >> Honestly, a lot of what I'm doing on the
[1:00:04] podcast is reminding my myself over and
[1:00:07] over of the things I need to not forget.
[1:00:11] >> You know, when you teach or in your
[1:00:13] case, you know, you teaching in a way by
[1:00:15] interviewing people,
[1:00:17] you actually learn so much through that,
[1:00:19] isn't it?
[1:00:20] >> Yes.
[1:00:21] >> It is just, you know, that the the
[1:00:23] willingness to try on something
[1:00:25] different and to trust the person who is
[1:00:29] introducing it enough that you are
[1:00:31] willing to try it on without immediately
[1:00:34] throwing it out the window if it doesn't
[1:00:36] work within 1 minute. That's all what's
[1:00:38] needed, you know? And some things won't
[1:00:40] be the right thing for a particular
[1:00:43] person,
[1:00:44] but if we keep going, it's it's going to
[1:00:47] come. I mean, there's so many different
[1:00:49] methods, so many different approaches,
[1:00:51] so many different traditions and
[1:00:54] practices,
[1:00:55] but they all are, you know, pointing
[1:00:58] towards the same
[1:01:00] direction. And some might speak to us
[1:01:03] much more loud than others, you know.
[1:01:05] >> It's been such a pleasure to talk with
[1:01:07] you. Is is is there something you were
[1:01:09] hoping we would get to that we haven't
[1:01:12] gotten to?
[1:01:12] >> You know what I'd like to say in parting
[1:01:15] is what's new about spiritual practice
[1:01:18] at this time is that we really have to
[1:01:20] question, you know, as a human beings we
[1:01:24] have to question the old paradigm of
[1:01:28] the centrality of the human species on
[1:01:30] this planet and really take an interest
[1:01:33] in the biosphere in all species working
[1:01:36] together to give us life.
[1:01:39] And find the most
[1:01:41] beneficial place in all of this. The
[1:01:44] benefit is
[1:01:46] is great, you know, not just for us, but
[1:01:49] for future generations. This is what
[1:01:52] gives me a lot of
[1:01:54] energy these days, you know, to find a
[1:01:57] way to bring the Buddha Dharma into a
[1:01:59] new
[1:02:01] way of looking at spiritual practice
[1:02:05] for the
[1:02:07] 21st century.
[1:02:08] >> Because that is what's needed right now,
[1:02:10] especially to get over this human human
[1:02:13] centrism.
[1:02:13] >> I think that's most important what's
[1:02:16] needed and we can
[1:02:18] really, you know, lean into the Buddha's
[1:02:21] teaching as a scaffolding to hold us as
[1:02:25] we are
[1:02:26] going over this threshold because it's a
[1:02:28] rocky time, you know.
[1:02:30] >> How would a an individual human life
[1:02:33] change
[1:02:34] if if one could get a toehold in what
[1:02:39] you're talking about. If I started to
[1:02:40] see myself instead of some sort of
[1:02:43] separate
[1:02:44] entity, you know, using the earth as a
[1:02:46] backdrop for my personal performance,
[1:02:49] instead move to like, as you said
[1:02:51] before, a cell that is a small part of
[1:02:55] a living a larger living organism. How
[1:02:57] would my life likely change if I could
[1:03:00] really internalize that?
[1:03:02] >> You know, I can't really tell you that,
[1:03:03] you know. Everybody has to find out for
[1:03:06] themselves and I think it's a it's a
[1:03:08] multi-generational,
[1:03:10] you know, process.
[1:03:12] And we can begin that and see what
[1:03:14] happens. I can't really say it, but
[1:03:16] since I am taking more interest in that,
[1:03:20] you know, since about
[1:03:21] 4 years or so that I really uh
[1:03:25] work with that consciously, my life has
[1:03:28] changed in a way that I live now, you
[1:03:30] know, in a
[1:03:32] in a small temple space uh north of San
[1:03:35] Francisco, which is called Yellow Earth
[1:03:37] Room, which is a it's a place where I'm
[1:03:40] living together Buddhism and Earth
[1:03:42] Awareness.
[1:03:44] So, you know, my life has taken on
[1:03:48] a different expression since that is
[1:03:52] more central to my practice. And and I'm
[1:03:55] sure, you know, that
[1:03:58] for everyone it will express
[1:04:00] differently, but it will find a way, you
[1:04:04] know, because the Earth has been finding
[1:04:07] a way to sustain life since almost 5
[1:04:09] billion years without anybody telling
[1:04:11] her what to do. And it's more like I'm
[1:04:13] asking her, "What can I do
[1:04:16] to use
[1:04:18] what I have and who I am at this point
[1:04:20] in my life to support the process?"
[1:04:24] >> If people want to learn more about you
[1:04:26] and from you, how can they do so?
[1:04:28] >> The people can visit my website and I
[1:04:30] have every Wednesday from 9:00 to 10:00
[1:04:33] a.m. Pacific Time, I have an online
[1:04:37] community we are meeting for practice
[1:04:40] for 1 hour and then there's 15 minutes
[1:04:43] for Q&A at the end. And then many other
[1:04:47] retreats and other opportunities online
[1:04:49] and in person you can find on my
[1:04:52] website. And I just recently, you know,
[1:04:55] brought out a book which is called What
[1:04:57] Are You Waiting For? You can find all of
[1:04:59] that on my website.
[1:05:00] >> Okay, we will put a link to that in the
[1:05:02] show notes. Well, you just said what I
[1:05:04] was hoping to say to you. Thank you. It
[1:05:06] was such a pleasure to to [music] meet
[1:05:08] you, albeit virtually, and yeah, I just
[1:05:11] I'm really grateful for your time.
[1:05:13] >> Thank you, Dan. I'm also very glad that
[1:05:15] you invited me and and uh
[1:05:17] thank you so much and all the best for
[1:05:19] your
[1:05:20] uh life.
[1:05:23] >> Thank you. I appreciate it. I need it.
[1:05:25] Um and right back at you.
[1:05:27] >> [music]
[1:05:27] >> Thank you.
[1:05:29] >> Also, a quick ask before I let you go.
[1:05:31] If you've got a minute, head on over to
[1:05:33] danharris.com and sign up for my
[1:05:35] newsletter. It drops in your inbox on
[1:05:38] Monday mornings, often a busy and
[1:05:39] stressful time for us. I try to write a
[1:05:42] short essay that has a little bit of
[1:05:44] wisdom, actionable, [clears throat]
[1:05:46] practical wisdom that you can
[1:05:48] immediately weave into your life on
[1:05:50] Monday mornings. A lot of people find
[1:05:52] them helpful and I hope you will, too.
[1:05:54] You can sign up at danharris.com. It's
[1:05:56] totally free. Now to the credits.
[1:06:00] Thank you so much to everybody who works
[1:06:01] so hard to make this show. 10% Happier
[1:06:03] is produced by Tara Anderson, Marissa
[1:06:06] Schneiderman, DJ Cashmere, David Hart,
[1:06:08] and Hayden Broom. Post-production is
[1:06:11] handled by the great folks over at
[1:06:12] Greenhorn Creative. And Nick Thorburn of
[1:06:15] the great indie rock band Islands wrote
[1:06:17] our theme. Thank you for listening.
[1:06:19] Deuces.