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Inspiration

Postpartum Psychosis: A Medical EmergencyWe're Still Failing to Recognize

Oprah Winfrey
Oprah Winfrey
Sep 10, 2026
9 min de lecture
À regarder · 7

On January 24, 2023, Lindsay Clancy, a 36-year-old labor and delivery nurse, strangled her three children—Cora, 5; Dawson, 3; and Callan, 8 months old—in the basement of her Duxbury, Massachusetts home. She then jumped from a second-story window, sustaining injuries that left her paralyzed from the waist down. The case has fractured the nation into opposing camps: those who believe she is guilty of premeditated first-degree murder, and those who view her as a victim of postpartum psychosis—a rare but devastating medical condition that destroyed her ability to distinguish reality from delusion. After 21 days of testimony from more than 80 witnesses, a jury could not reach unanimity, resulting in a mistrial. But beneath the legal arguments and social media vitriol lies a far more pressing question: how did we fail to recognize and treat a medical emergency unfolding in real time?

Lecture · 8 sections

When "New Mother" Becomes "The Voice of God"

Postpartum psychosis is not the "baby blues" or even postpartum depression, though the culture routinely conflates them. It is a break with reality so complete that mothers begin to hear voices commanding them to harm themselves or their children, or to believe their infant is the Antichrist, or that they themselves have died and are being controlled by external forces. One mother who experienced postpartum psychosis described hearing a man's voice whisper in her ear: "It will stop if you hold him under the water." Another spoke of hearing what she called "the voice of God," while yet another became convinced her daughter was the second coming of Jesus.

The incidence is rare—occurring in approximately 1 to 2 per 1,000 births—which is precisely why so few healthcare providers, family members, and mothers themselves recognize it when it appears. The onset is typically sudden, often within the first two weeks postpartum, though it can emerge up to several months after delivery. Unlike postpartum depression, which develops gradually and involves persistent sadness or hopelessness, postpartum psychosis involves hallucinations, delusions, and a complete loss of insight. A mother may genuinely believe that the horrific thoughts entering her mind are commands she must obey, or external truths she cannot question.

The Cascade of Missed Signals

Meg Hamp, a labor and delivery nurse who worked alongside Lindsay Clancy for seven years and testified on behalf of the defense, described her as "a light on our unit" who "brought warmth and compassion to the room." Clancy was so moved by birth that Hamp would often see tears in her eyes as mothers delivered their babies. She was, by all accounts, a devoted nurse and a loving mother to her own three children. No one around her reported signs of bipolar disorder or other pre-existing psychiatric illness.

Yet in the weeks leading up to January 24, the warning signs were present. Medical experts who reviewed the case identified what are called "pink flags"—subtle indicators of emerging psychosis that, if caught and acted upon, can prevent tragedy. These include sudden changes in sleep patterns (not the normal newborn-related sleep deprivation, but an inability to sleep even when the baby sleeps), rapid mood shifts, paranoia, obsessive thoughts, difficulty concentrating, and statements that suggest the mother's sense of reality is fragmenting.

Clancy had told her husband twice about intrusive thoughts and had expressed concern about her mental state. Medical records indicate she was prescribed multiple psychiatric medications, yet the defense argued she was over-medicated without proper psychiatric oversight—a critical distinction. She did not receive the specialized psychiatric care that postpartum psychosis demands. Instead, her escalating crisis was treated as a medication management problem, not as a medical emergency requiring immediate hospitalization and specialized perinatal psychiatric intervention.

Why Is This a Medical Emergency?

Postpartum psychosis is a psychiatric emergency comparable in urgency to sepsis or a heart attack. When a mother loses the ability to distinguish her own thoughts from reality, when she begins to hear commanding voices or believe impossible things about her baby or herself, she is in acute medical danger—and so is her child. The condition is also treatable. Unlike many psychiatric disorders that require long-term management, postpartum psychosis responds to immediate intervention: hospitalization, antipsychotic medication, mood stabilizers, and specialized psychiatric care can resolve the psychosis entirely, often within days or weeks.

The tragedy is that this window of treatability requires someone—a partner, a family member, a healthcare provider, a friend—to recognize what is happening and act. When a mother says something that suggests her grasp on reality is slipping, when she expresses fears about harming her baby, when her sleep becomes severely disrupted despite having opportunity to rest, these are moments to intervene, not to wait and see.

What Happens in the Postpartum Brain?

The postpartum period involves the most dramatic hormonal shifts a human body experiences. Estrogen and progesterone, which rise throughout pregnancy, plummet within hours of delivery. This neurochemical earthquake affects neurotransmitter systems—serotonin, dopamine, GABA—that regulate mood, perception, and reality-testing. For most women, the brain adapts. For those with genetic vulnerability or certain pre-existing conditions, the adjustment can trigger psychosis.

Sleep deprivation, another hallmark of early postpartum life, is itself a known trigger for psychotic episodes in vulnerable individuals. When a mother cannot sleep—not because the baby is crying, but because her mind will not quiet, because she is flooded with racing thoughts and terrifying images—the neurochemical stress compounds. The brain's ability to filter out intrusive thoughts, to distinguish signal from noise, begins to fail.

The "Pink Flags" That Can Save Lives

Early detection is the pivot point between tragedy and recovery. Healthcare providers and family members need to know what to watch for in the first weeks and months after birth. The warning signs include: severe insomnia despite having opportunity to sleep; rapid, pressured speech or racing thoughts; paranoia (belief that one's partner is unfaithful, that there is a conspiracy, that one is being watched or harmed); obsessive thoughts about harm, often focused on the baby; loss of appetite; confusion or difficulty concentrating; and any statement suggesting loss of insight—the mother does not recognize that her thoughts are aberrant.

One woman who experienced postpartum psychosis described the moment she recognized something was profoundly wrong: she was looking at her newborn daughter and felt no connection, no recognition. The love she expected to feel simply was not there. When that absence registered—when she understood that something in her mind had broken—she was able to tell her husband, and he was able to get her help.

Another mother, a few days postpartum, found herself unable to be alone with her baby. She knew, with the clarity that sometimes pierces psychosis, that her thoughts were dangerous and that she could not trust herself. She gave her baby to her husband and said: "You need to take him. I cannot be responsible for him right now." That act of self-awareness, that willingness to surrender control rather than rationalize or hide what was happening, saved her child's life.

The Tension Between Accountability and Compassion

The Lindsay Clancy case has divided not just the nation but families, workplaces, and social media into irreconcilable camps. The prosecution argued that she planned the murders and faked her suicide attempt. The defense argued that she was in the grip of psychosis, that her mind was gone, and that a system designed to protect mothers and children failed her at every critical juncture. Both arguments cannot be simultaneously true in a legal sense. A jury must decide guilt or innocence. But in a human sense, both can be true: a woman can be responsible for her actions and also desperately, urgently ill; a system can have failed her and she can still have harmed her children.

This tension is the real subject that the Clancy case has surfaced. It is a question not of law but of culture: when we discover that a mother is experiencing postpartum psychosis, what is our obligation? Is it to punish her for the thoughts she cannot control? Or is it to treat her, to protect her child, and to ask ourselves what signs we missed, what systems failed, and how we can do better next time?

A Watershed Moment for Prevention and Care

The deaths of Cora, Dawson, and Callan have ignited a national conversation that did not exist, at scale, before. In 1986, when conversations about maternal mental health first began on mainstream media, there was no language for postpartum psychosis. Mothers who experienced it were called "monsters" or "evil." Over decades, that language has slowly shifted. The Clancy case has accelerated that shift, making postpartum psychosis and postpartum mental health crises topics of genuine national debate.

The question now is whether this moment catalyzes real change. The most critical interventions are straightforward: screening protocols that specifically assess for psychotic symptoms (not just depression) in the weeks after birth; education for healthcare providers, partners, and mothers themselves about what postpartum psychosis looks like; specialized perinatal psychiatric services in every region; and a cultural understanding that postpartum psychosis is a medical emergency, not a character flaw or a sign of evil.

Some women who experienced postpartum psychosis and recovered have become advocates. They speak of the terror of hearing commanding voices, of believing impossible things about their baby, of moments when they were convinced they were dying or dead. They also speak of recovery—complete, total recovery—once they received the right treatment. That is the message that needs to penetrate: postpartum psychosis is treatable. It is temporary. Women recover.

Where to go from here

If you are a new mother and you experience sudden changes in sleep, racing thoughts, paranoia, or any sense that reality is fragmenting, tell someone immediately. Do not wait. Do not assume it will pass. If you are a partner, family member, or friend of a new mother and you notice these signs, ask directly: "Are you okay? Are you having thoughts that feel strange or scary?" If the answer is yes, seek immediate psychiatric evaluation. If you are a healthcare provider, expand your postpartum screening to include specific questions about psychotic symptoms. The pink flags—the early warning signs—are visible if we know what to look for. The tragedy of the Clancy case is not inevitable. It is preventable.

Transcript

[0:07] We heard from moms all over the country

[0:09] who've lived through postpartum

[0:11] psychosis. You thought hearing voices

[0:14] that were telling you to kill yourself

[0:16] and your children.

[0:17] >> I had my son in the baby bath and he

[0:19] began to cry in the bath and I heard as

[0:22] if a man had walked up behind me and

[0:23] whispered in my right ear, it will stop

[0:26] if you hold him under the water.

[0:27] >> I started to hear what I call the voice

[0:29] of God.

[0:29] >> Did you say your daughter was the second

[0:30] coming of Jesus?

[0:31] >> Oh, yeah.

[0:32] >> Maegan Hamp is a labor and delivery

[0:35] nurse who worked with Lindsay Clancy for

[0:37] 7 years. She testified on behalf of the

[0:40] defense. How would you describe Lindsay

[0:42] as a nurse, as a friend, as a mother?

[0:46] What was your first reaction when you

[0:50] heard that Lindsay Clancy had murdered

[0:53] her children?

[0:56] >> The breaking headline outside Boston

[0:58] tonight.

[0:58] >> It's a case that's captivating the

[1:00] country.

[1:01] >> is a case that has divided people.

[1:03] >> I'm going to declare that the jury is

[1:05] deadlocked and I'm going to declare a

[1:07] mistrial.

[1:08] >> The 36-year-old mother, wife, and nurse,

[1:12] Lindsay Clancy, was charged with

[1:14] first-degree murder for strangling her

[1:15] three children to death. Her daughter,

[1:18] Cora, and two sons, Dawson and Callan.

[1:23] After 21 days of testimony from more

[1:25] than 80 witnesses, the jury was not able

[1:28] to reach a unanimous decision. The

[1:30] prosecution has not yet announced if

[1:33] they will try the case again.

[1:36] >> Cora's into princesses.

[1:40] >> And Dawson

[1:43] >> He's into firefighters and trucks.

[1:48] >> And Callan is toys.

[1:50] >> He's just a happy baby.

[1:52] >> The defense argued Lindsay Clancy was

[1:54] suffering from postpartum psychosis and

[1:57] that despite repeated requests for help,

[1:59] Lindsay was over medicated by doctors

[2:02] and was not provided proper psychiatric

[2:04] care.

[2:05] >> She was a darn good mother.

[2:07] Her mind was gone.

[2:14] >> The prosecution alleged that Lindsay

[2:16] Clancy planned the murders and may have

[2:19] faked a suicide attempt that left her

[2:21] paralyzed from the waist down.

[2:23] >> She left them

[2:25] discarded on the basement floor

[2:27] like broken toys

[2:30] because she was done playing the game.

[2:32] >> The trial has divided our nation.

[2:35] >> Everybody failed that woman.

[2:37] >> I wholeheartedly

[2:39] think she did not do it.

[2:40] >> I care what any of you say, Lindsay

[2:42] Clancy is guilty.

[2:43] >> When I had postpartum psychosis, I had

[2:45] some of the scariest, darkest thoughts

[2:48] to the point where I knew I could not

[2:50] physically

[2:52] hold my baby.

[2:53] I had to give him to my husband.

[2:55] >> And this is a topic that needs to go

[2:57] further than just this trial.

[3:01] >> I agree with that. That's why we're

[3:02] here. So thank you for joining me here

[3:05] on the Oprah podcast along with millions

[3:07] of other Americans and people all over

[3:09] the world. I too have been following the

[3:11] Lindsay Clancy case and the loss of

[3:14] three innocent and defenseless little

[3:17] children

[3:18] who did not deserve to die that way is

[3:22] just too horrific to really comprehend.

[3:26] And no matter what the lawyers argue and

[3:29] a possible future jury decides

[3:32] how can we begin to reconcile the

[3:35] senseless deaths of three

[3:38] precious children at the hands of their

[3:41] mother. This case

[3:43] is another flash point in America that

[3:45] has created yet another divide and as we

[3:49] watch the country

[3:50] buckle under the weight of such

[3:54] an unfathomable act with all of the

[3:56] opinions and the speculations and the

[3:59] conspiracy theories. And yes, a lot a

[4:02] lot of vitriol on all sides.

[4:05] The question I want to ask is how did we

[4:08] get here?

[4:10] And how can we best use this moment,

[4:14] this watershed moment

[4:18] to honor the lives of Cora,

[4:22] 5 years old,

[4:25] Dawson,

[4:27] 3 years old,

[4:30] and Callan,

[4:32] who only lived 8 months

[4:35] here on the planet Earth.

[4:38] How can we do that and protect families

[4:41] and women

[4:43] and especially

[4:45] children?

[4:47] So, let's just have a moment of silence

[4:49] to think about Cora, Dawson, and Callan.

[5:02] Cora,

[5:04] Dawson,

[5:07] and Callan.

[5:10] We come to Boston to have this

[5:11] conversation and we're about 30 miles

[5:14] from Duxbury, Massachusetts, where

[5:17] on January 24th, 2023, Cora,

[5:21] Dawson, and Callan were killed.

[5:25] And I have to say we're not here to

[5:27] retry Lindsay Clancy's case or debate

[5:31] the minute details or online theories.

[5:36] I've been talking to mothers who

[5:37] suffered from postpartum mental health

[5:39] issues now for decades. And way back

[5:43] when, when we first started having these

[5:45] conversations on the Oprah Winfrey show

[5:47] as early as 1986.

[5:50] There was not even a language for it.

[5:52] Nobody called it anything except these

[5:55] women are monsters or these women are

[5:57] evil. And over the years, I've

[5:59] interviewed many, many, many mothers who

[6:02] have killed their children. And we can

[6:04] all see that the deaths of Cora, Dawson,

[6:07] and Callan have caused this national

[6:10] conversation to shift and erupt like

[6:12] never before. So, that's why I wanted to

[6:15] bring together doctors and psychiatrists

[6:17] and legal scholars and journalists and

[6:19] parents here today to Boston to unpack

[6:23] what has been blowing up on social

[6:25] media, on your family text chains, at

[6:29] work, and in the school parking lot. And

[6:31] my intention here today is to

[6:35] ask this question. How can we, as a

[6:39] culture,

[6:40] as a society,

[6:42] do better?

[6:44] How do we use this moment to move

[6:47] ourselves forward and not just all of

[6:51] our opinions and yakking about it? For

[6:53] something this big Can you feel it?

[6:55] Something this this big in the culture

[6:57] means the culture is supposed to shift.

[6:59] It feels to me like, you know, many

[7:01] other movements that I've witnessed

[7:03] who've been old enough to witness, you

[7:05] know, when there was a time when people

[7:07] just drove drunk and they killed people

[7:09] and nobody said anything. And then what

[7:12] was created? The Mothers Against Drunk

[7:13] Drivers. And that movement really

[7:15] changed the way we looked at alcohol and

[7:18] the consumption of alcohol and

[7:20] alcoholism in this country. It changed

[7:23] the laws for driving. It

[7:26] and saved so many lives. So, today,

[7:29] we want to use this seminal moment to

[7:31] move forward. And I want to start by

[7:32] introducing Meg Hamp. She is a labor and

[7:37] delivery nurse who worked with Lindsay

[7:39] Clancy for 7 years. And you may

[7:41] recognize Meg because she testified on

[7:44] behalf of the defense and here's a short

[7:46] part of it.

[7:47] >> Were you aware of any incidents where

[7:49] Lindsey was with you and a and a woman

[7:52] did in fact express concern that she

[7:54] wanted to hurt herself or her child?

[7:57] >> There were

[7:58] there was um

[8:00] a particular patient that Lindsey was

[8:03] um on staff

[8:05] when this patient arrived. It was a a

[8:08] patient that arrived to the unit that

[8:10] had plans to harm herself while she was

[8:12] pregnant.

[8:14] And

[8:15] we had a conversation. Lindsey was brand

[8:17] new. Um it was the summer that she had

[8:20] just started.

[8:21] Um and we had a conversation about

[8:23] mental health in pregnancy and

[8:25] postpartum.

[8:27] Um and and I

[8:30] asked her if she had ever heard of the

[8:33] Andrea Yates case and she hadn't.

[8:36] And I explained that to her and she

[8:38] cried.

[8:40] And she said, "How could a mother hurt

[8:41] her children?"

[8:44] >> Hi Meg.

[8:44] >> Hi.

[8:45] >> Thank you. This is Meg's first time that

[8:47] you're speaking, you know, outside of

[8:49] the trial. So thank you for being here

[8:51] with us today.

[8:52] >> Thank you.

[8:52] >> Um how would you describe Lindsey as a

[8:55] nurse, as a friend, as a mother?

[8:59] >> Lindsey loved being a nurse. She was a

[9:02] light on our unit. She brought warmth

[9:06] and compassion to the room. She brought

[9:08] emotion to the rooms that we were in.

[9:11] Um

[9:12] I loved working with her. I think our

[9:14] team loved working with her.

[9:17] Um she just she brought a a piece to our

[9:19] team that nobody else has been able to

[9:22] bring.

[9:22] >> Mhm.

[9:23] >> Uh I often remember

[9:25] um looking up after a baby was born and

[9:27] Lindsey was my second nurse in the

[9:29] delivery and just looking over the

[9:30] mother and and and Lindsey with tears in

[9:33] her eyes because birth was just so so

[9:36] for her and she felt that for so many

[9:38] other women, um not just her friends or

[9:40] her family.

[9:42] >> And so several medical experts testified

[9:44] that they believed that she um suffered

[9:48] from bipolar disorder. Did you ever see

[9:50] any signs of that?

[9:52] >> No.

[9:52] >> And you testified that you'd once

[9:54] brought up to her that you just said

[9:56] there the case of Andrea Yates. How did

[9:58] that conversation come about?

[10:00] >> We had a patient on the unit that was

[10:02] suffering from some mental health

[10:04] challenges and

[10:06] um there was just a lot of question

[10:07] around that. Lindsay being a new nurse,

[10:09] um and there was another new nurse on

[10:11] the floor at the time and I had asked I

[10:13] just asked her if she had ever heard of

[10:15] the Andrea Yates case um

[10:17] and and she hadn't. Um it seems like

[10:20] such a a big case in the maternal health

[10:23] world.

[10:24] >> Mhm.

[10:24] >> Um but Lindsay was at that age where she

[10:27] probably hadn't kind of lived through

[10:29] that. Um I'm a little bit older than

[10:31] Lindsay. Um so that it that story was

[10:34] just

[10:34] >> interviewing Andrea Yates' husband and

[10:36] doing a whole series of shows around

[10:38] Andrea Yates. Yes.

[10:39] >> Yeah.

[10:40] >> And

[10:41] what I was saying earlier at the time of

[10:43] Andrea Yates, everyone just you know,

[10:46] first of all, we didn't have social

[10:48] media then, but a number of people just

[10:51] felt because obviously the first time

[10:53] she was convicted of murder and a lot of

[10:56] people just thought that here was this

[10:58] evil woman who killed her kids and

[10:59] nobody understood it. So now we're 25

[11:02] years later.

[11:04] >> Right. And people still don't understand

[11:06] it.

[11:06] >> still don't understand it. What was

[11:10] your first reaction when you as her

[11:13] friend and as her

[11:16] a comrade in working

[11:18] um

[11:19] realized or had heard that she'd

[11:21] murdered her children, that Lindsay

[11:23] Clancy had murdered her children?

[11:26] >> Oh, first I didn't believe it.

[11:27] >> Yeah.

[11:29] >> Lindsay

[11:29] >> How did you hear?

[11:31] >> Um

[11:32] I had a a phone call from a a colleague.

[11:37] Um we weren't 100% sure what had

[11:39] happened, but at the the address was

[11:40] hitting the news.

[11:42] Um and I knew her address, so I knew

[11:44] that something had happened.

[11:45] >> Mhm.

[11:46] >> Um and then

[11:48] co-workers were chatting um

[11:50] >> Mhm.

[11:51] >> and

[11:52] that's how we we we learned what

[11:53] happened.

[11:54] >> So you heard it and you didn't believe

[11:56] it.

[11:56] >> Didn't believe it.

[11:58] >> Because you knew her.

[12:00] >> She

[12:01] loved her children. She lived for her

[12:03] children. She

[12:05] did everything for them. She wanted all

[12:08] the parenting tips.

[12:10] Um it it wasn't possible in my mind that

[12:14] this was a person who could murder her

[12:16] three children.

[12:18] >> So what was your reaction when you heard

[12:20] that there was a mistrial?

[12:22] >> I was devastated for her that she

[12:24] potentially has to go through this

[12:25] again.

[12:26] >> Mhm.

[12:28] And what do you want to say to people

[12:29] and there are lots of them who believe

[12:31] that Lindsay Clancy is just evil?

[12:37] >> I think

[12:40] mental health can affect anyone.

[12:43] Um

[12:44] it can affect the person who goes to

[12:46] their dream college

[12:49] meets the man of their dreams, decides

[12:51] to have a family, buys a house, buys

[12:54] another house as their family grows

[12:56] and it doesn't matter where you are in

[12:59] life or how many boxes on your life's

[13:02] bucket list you're checking off as you

[13:04] go.

[13:05] It can impact anyone regardless of where

[13:08] you are in your life.

[13:10] Um and this has been very eye-opening

[13:13] that someone like Lindsay

[13:14] who was checking off those boxes of her

[13:16] life's bucket list, that this could

[13:18] happen to her.

[13:21] >> Thank you, Meg.

[13:21] >> Thank you.

[13:22] >> Thank you. So we heard from moms all

[13:24] over the country and have who've lived

[13:28] through postpartum psychosis, two are

[13:31] joining us. Brooke, you say that

[13:33] Lindsey's story actually hits so close

[13:36] to home for you. How so? Will you share

[13:38] your story with us?

[13:40] >> When Lindsey's story came across my

[13:42] social media fill um screen, I

[13:46] I literally said,

[13:48] "This is an alternate reality.

[13:50] This is my personal life as an alternate

[13:52] reality."

[13:54] And up until

[13:56] Lindsey's case went public,

[13:58] I hadn't even told my own husband some

[14:00] of the darkest

[14:02] thoughts I'd had when I was going

[14:04] through postpartum psychosis.

[14:06] My postpartum psychosis um started when

[14:09] my son was 10 days old.

[14:11] And I remember the first hallucination

[14:15] and I was convinced there was a man

[14:16] outside our house with a gun just there

[14:18] to murder me.

[14:19] >> Could you see him?

[14:20] >> I could see his shadow through

[14:23] our blinds.

[14:24] >> Yeah. Did you tell your husband at the

[14:26] time?

[14:26] >> at my husband who was I was standing

[14:29] holding our baby rocking him to sleep

[14:30] and he was in the bed. I was standing

[14:33] next to our bed and I looked at him

[14:35] and I looked back at the window and I

[14:37] was like, "I still see the man." And I

[14:39] looked at him and he wasn't reacting and

[14:42] I thought,

[14:43] "If he's not reacting, is he there?"

[14:46] And I turned my back to the window

[14:49] and I just kept I just breathed in my

[14:51] baby

[14:53] and I was like,

[14:54] "I don't know if this is happening."

[14:57] And

[14:58] that was the first time

[15:02] >> But did you mention it?

[15:04] >> No.

[15:04] >> You did not mention it.

[15:05] >> not mention it at that point.

[15:07] >> Mhm.

[15:08] >> I continued to have hallucinations and

[15:11] around 6 weeks postpartum, I became

[15:15] extremely suicidal.

[15:17] Um and I still

[15:20] didn't mention it.

[15:21] >> You were having suicidal thoughts?

[15:24] >> Yes, I was having

[15:26] uh suicide ideations, intrusive thoughts

[15:29] about suicide that would come out of

[15:31] nowhere, and it would just be a movie

[15:34] playing in my mind.

[15:35] >> Okay, so

[15:36] one of the things the prosecution

[15:38] stressed throughout this is how normal

[15:41] Lindsay Clancy seemed during other parts

[15:44] of the day. So, did you feel feel normal

[15:47] during other parts of the day?

[15:49] >> Yes.

[15:49] Felt normal?

[15:50] >> Or were you just pretending to be

[15:52] normal?

[15:53] >> Um so,

[15:55] postpartum psychosis waxes and wanes,

[15:57] and I wish I had understood that because

[15:59] I was actually gaslighting myself.

[16:01] >> You were gaslighting yourself.

[16:02] >> normal.

[16:03] >> Yeah.

[16:03] >> That what I was going through maybe

[16:05] wasn't that bad, that maybe I actually

[16:07] didn't

[16:08] see that,

[16:10] and maybe it was like a dream.

[16:12] >> Can you tell us why in that moment you

[16:14] wouldn't say to your husband, "Did you

[16:16] see somebody out by the window?"

[16:19] >> Um

[16:21] I was I don't know why I didn't in that

[16:24] moment,

[16:25] and I continued to not. I had

[16:28] experienced postpartum depression and

[16:29] anxiety with my previous children.

[16:31] >> Mhm. So, with the other three children,

[16:33] it took the form of what? Cuz we want

[16:35] we're going to be talking to doctors

[16:36] later to distinguish There is a distinct

[16:39] difference between depression and

[16:41] psychosis. So, you'd been depressed

[16:43] before, meaning what? You felt down? You

[16:46] know, back in the old days, people

[16:47] didn't have a name for it, they just

[16:48] called it the baby blues.

[16:50] >> Right, which is a separate thing.

[16:52] >> Yeah.

[16:52] >> And I

[16:53] um postpartum depression for me manifest

[16:56] with a heavy depression, a darkness,

[16:59] like I just a weight, a cloud. It's kind

[17:02] of like it's hard to get out of bed, but

[17:05] I still

[17:06] want to take care of my kids. I just

[17:09] am unmotivated to. I want to take care

[17:11] of myself, but

[17:13] I don't

[17:15] find the motivation to do it. I have to

[17:17] make myself do it.

[17:18] >> Yeah.

[17:19] So, you'd felt that before.

[17:20] >> Yeah.

[17:21] >> This was different.

[17:22] >> This was different and this came on

[17:25] sudden.

[17:25] >> So, okay, the 10 days, you see the man

[17:28] and then what happens?

[17:29] >> Um my hallucinations

[17:32] and intrusive thoughts continue to build

[17:35] and get worse.

[17:38] And when my son was 3 months old was the

[17:41] first time I heard

[17:44] someone talking to me that wasn't there.

[17:47] >> Can you explain to us what that feels

[17:49] like?

[17:50] >> I had my son in the baby bath on the

[17:52] counter in our bathroom and he began to

[17:55] cry in the bath.

[17:57] I don't remember why

[17:59] at this point and I heard as if a man,

[18:03] it was a man's voice for me, as if a man

[18:05] had walked up behind me and whispered in

[18:07] my right ear.

[18:09] It will stop if you hold him under the

[18:10] water.

[18:11] >> Mhm.

[18:13] >> My son had just barely began to cry.

[18:18] And I stopped and I heard it again.

[18:21] Just push him under the water.

[18:25] I grabbed his towel

[18:28] and I picked him up and I ran out of the

[18:30] room crying.

[18:33] And I did not give my son another bath.

[18:37] >> So, at this point, did you tell Trevor?

[18:40] >> No.

[18:41] >> Why?

[18:42] >> I was so scared.

[18:44] I was scared my kids would be taken from

[18:46] me.

[18:47] I was scared of what would he think?

[18:51] >> What would he think?

[18:52] >> Yeah, what would he think of me?

[18:53] >> So, when the voice, cuz you're here to

[18:55] help us understand

[18:56] >> Yeah.

[18:57] >> when the voice says, "It if you just

[19:00] hold him under the water, it'll go it'll

[19:01] go away."

[19:03] >> Yeah, it stops.

[19:03] >> the solution.

[19:04] >> It stops. Okay. Does that voice then

[19:07] disappear and then you go on and you

[19:09] make lunch?

[19:10] >> Yeah. Literally.

[19:13] I ran to the family room with him. I

[19:16] didn't even drain the water.

[19:17] >> what you mean by wax and wane.

[19:19] >> Yeah. I sobbed sitting on the couch with

[19:21] him

[19:22] and dressed him.

[19:24] I dried the soap off of him.

[19:26] >> The voice comes in and then it leaves.

[19:28] It's gone.

[19:28] >> It was gone.

[19:29] >> And now you're normal again.

[19:30] >> And I was all like confused by it and

[19:35] I went and I dressed him and I helped

[19:37] the toddlers with the sippy cups

[19:40] and

[19:41] changed their diapers. I had multiple

[19:43] kids in diapers. I have four children

[19:46] under five.

[19:47] And got them a snack and we went in the

[19:50] yard.

[19:51] And I pulled out my phone and I Googled.

[19:55] I searched the hallucination like seeing

[19:59] a man who's not there, hearing voices

[20:01] that aren't there.

[20:02] >> You Googled.

[20:03] >> I did Google.

[20:04] >> Yeah.

[20:04] >> And postpartum psychosis popped up.

[20:08] And I opened the Wikipedia page on it.

[20:10] I'm pretty sure it was Wikipedia and I

[20:12] read the first few lines

[20:14] and I thought, "Oh my gosh, I think I

[20:17] have this."

[20:18] Now, this is where I should have sent

[20:20] the link or something to my husband or

[20:21] called him and said, "I think I have

[20:23] this."

[20:23] >> time has gone on now?

[20:25] >> He's about 3 months old.

[20:26] >> Wow.

[20:28] >> And

[20:29] I did not get help.

[20:31] >> Yeah. How often did you hear voices

[20:33] before you got help?

[20:35] >> My

[20:36] story goes on for 18 months undiagnosed.

[20:39] I

[20:40] >> Wow.

[20:42] >> After I realized I I was fighting a real

[20:45] mental illness, I doubled down like it

[20:49] was my mission to protect my family from

[20:51] it.

[20:52] Including my husband.

[20:53] >> Mhm.

[20:55] >> And I built up every wall

[20:58] and I faked it like my life depended on

[21:01] it because it did.

[21:02] >> What was happening to Trevor? Like I can

[21:04] see that this is hard for you to even

[21:06] hear now.

[21:08] This many years later because

[21:09] your youngest son is now

[21:11] >> Nine.

[21:11] >> Nine.

[21:13] So,

[21:14] nine years later,

[21:17] all of this comes out because of the

[21:19] Lindsay Clancy trial, you feel that

[21:23] you're looking at yourself, that it's a

[21:25] mirror of your life. And

[21:28] when you look back at that time, what do

[21:30] you what do you

[21:32] say to yourself about what was going on?

[21:34] Did you notice a difference?

[21:36] >> Um there were things I did notice. Um

[21:39] but I I didn't understand it. Like when

[21:42] she did tell me about the manic episode,

[21:43] I was like, "That doesn't make any

[21:44] sense. Why would you think that?"

[21:47] And so

[21:49] I would say I was really uneducated in

[21:51] it.

[21:52] Um to catch what was going on.

[21:55] Um

[21:56] but yeah, I don't like to look back.

[21:59] We have family photos.

[22:01] >> Yeah.

[22:02] >> Yeah.

[22:05] Maybe you tell the part.

[22:07] >> Um when our son was about 4 months old,

[22:09] I

[22:11] was in a really dark place with fighting

[22:14] it, and I knew I couldn't keep going.

[22:17] So, I planned family photos as the final

[22:20] gift.

[22:21] I wasn't even going to wait for the

[22:22] photos to come back when we got back

[22:24] from taking them.

[22:25] >> to kill yourself?

[22:26] >> That night, yeah.

[22:27] >> Yeah.

[22:28] >> Because it was my only way of protecting

[22:30] my family from myself.

[22:32] >> So, you thought if you killed yourself,

[22:33] you would do no harm to your children.

[22:35] >> Yeah.

[22:35] >> Cuz you were still having the intrusive

[22:37] thoughts about harming your children

[22:38] harming your children. Just one child or

[22:40] all the children?

[22:41] >> I actually only had intrusive thoughts

[22:42] at this point about harming my baby.

[22:44] >> Mhm.

[22:46] >> Um

[22:46] >> So, when did you get help?

[22:48] >> Well, I thought maybe it would end on

[22:50] its own.

[22:53] Nowhere at that point 10 years ago did

[22:55] it ever say it was an emergency online.

[22:58] >> Yeah.

[22:59] >> I didn't say it was an emergency, and so

[23:02] I thought maybe

[23:04] it will get better on its own.

[23:05] >> You thought hearing voices that were

[23:08] telling you to kill yourself and your

[23:09] children

[23:10] >> It's not logical, of course.

[23:11] >> I understand that.

[23:14] I understand it's not logical to be

[23:16] suicidal and want to die and be

[23:19] terrified you're going to be murdered.

[23:22] >> Right.

[23:22] >> I understand those things don't add up

[23:24] to a normal mind. And that should be

[23:29] a sign to yourself

[23:32] something's not right.

[23:33] >> Yeah.

[23:33] >> You're not in your right mind.

[23:35] >> Yeah.

[23:36] >> But I thought if I can just fake it

[23:39] harder,

[23:41] maybe I can survive it.

[23:43] >> So, here's the question. When you're

[23:45] hearing a voice that says

[23:47] "If you just hold him under water." When

[23:49] these voices show up, can you

[23:53] distinguish that

[23:55] this is this is not normal? Were you

[23:57] able to distinguish this is not normal,

[24:00] or did that feel like it was real?

[24:02] >> It felt extremely real.

[24:04] >> Yeah.

[24:05] >> It felt as real as my husband were to

[24:08] lean over and whisper in my ear right

[24:10] now.

[24:10] It was as real as someone walking up

[24:12] behind me and talking onto one side of

[24:15] my head.

[24:15] >> Yeah.

[24:17] But it's a voice you you don't know. So,

[24:19] it's not like it's your voice telling

[24:21] you to do it. It's another voice.

[24:23] >> Right.

[24:23] >> Yeah.

[24:24] >> It was for me. Yeah.

[24:26] >> For you. So, you finally got help when?

[24:29] >> I wrote my husband a letter

[24:32] when I was about 16 months postpartum.

[24:34] It was three pages, I believe, front and

[24:36] back.

[24:38] And I laid it all out for him in it.

[24:40] Like,

[24:42] "I am not okay.

[24:44] I need help. I am hallucinating. I am

[24:48] extremely suicidal." And that night when

[24:50] we were in separate bedrooms, tucking

[24:52] our kids in, we tuck our kids in and we

[24:53] switch rooms,

[24:55] I texted him and I said, "I need to talk

[24:57] tonight."

[24:58] And he responded, "Okay." Like, I

[25:00] couldn't even tell him in person. I was

[25:01] so scared. I was so nauseous.

[25:04] We go to the bedroom and I shut the

[25:05] door. I walk to my bedside table and I

[25:07] take out this letter that's folded and I

[25:09] throw it at him

[25:11] and I collapse on the bed sobbing. Just

[25:14] all the energy I'd put into faking it

[25:16] all those months just

[25:18] the walls came crumbling down.

[25:20] And I just sobbed harder than I've ever

[25:24] cried in my life. And he opened the

[25:26] letter and started reading it and as he

[25:27] turned the first page, he reached out

[25:30] and he was crying and he said, "It's

[25:31] going to be okay, Brooke. I'm going to

[25:33] protect you. I'm going to get you help."

[25:36] And not being alone

[25:39] Yeah.

[25:41] >> And you were hospitalized for how long?

[25:44] >> I was not hospitalized for 2 more

[25:46] months.

[25:48] My husband worked from home at that

[25:50] point and at that point he babysat me.

[25:54] I was rarely left alone. Like, it wasn't

[25:56] just we were on the same floor in the

[25:57] house. We were in the same room. If he

[25:59] had to work in the office, I was in the

[26:01] office.

[26:02] If the kids needed something, he got up

[26:05] and helped.

[26:07] Um

[26:08] if he removed everything from the house

[26:10] that I was allergic to, anything I could

[26:13] use to harm myself. He asked me very

[26:14] specific questions

[26:17] to protect me.

[26:17] >> So, you were trying to fix it yourself?

[26:20] >> No.

[26:20] >> or were you at this point seeing

[26:22] somebody? When you realized that she

[26:24] needed help and you said, "I'm going to

[26:25] help you."

[26:27] How did you do that?

[26:28] >> So, we did the we took the precautions

[26:30] in the house and her not being left

[26:32] alone. Um but then it was

[26:35] we eventually got an amazing team. So,

[26:37] our midwife was amazing in finding us a

[26:40] good doctor. We had a doctor. We had our

[26:43] a therapist who and this team rallied

[26:45] around. But what was really, really

[26:47] frustrating is when you have someone

[26:48] reach out to you and you're trying to

[26:50] help them. Like, a lot of people would

[26:52] they say, "If I only knew. If I only

[26:55] knew I would have done something." This

[26:56] was my if I only knew moment.

[26:58] And so, we're in this crisis state and

[27:02] we're calling and calling and calling

[27:04] and trying to get help for 3 weeks. We

[27:07] couldn't get in to see a psychologist

[27:10] and

[27:10] trying to get help. Literally leaving

[27:12] voicemail after voicemail after

[27:13] voicemail and no one cared to help.

[27:16] >> And at this point, it was the the doctor

[27:19] that called us back was a referral from

[27:20] to our from our midwife.

[27:22] And he called us back leaving his office

[27:25] for Christmas break.

[27:27] >> Wow.

[27:27] >> He said, "I got your voicemail

[27:31] and it was so important, I'm calling you

[27:32] from my truck. Like,

[27:34] >> Wow.

[27:34] >> I need to get you help today."

[27:35] >> Yeah. Well, that is great. That is great

[27:37] to hear. And I think Thank you for

[27:39] sharing your story. Very brave of you to

[27:41] share your story, especially in a

[27:43] climate where everybody wants to have

[27:45] their own opinions about what somebody

[27:47] else's life and story is.

[27:49] Were you

[27:52] um wary about coming forward and sharing

[27:56] your story?

[27:57] >> Um

[27:58] I was I have been sharing my story for 7

[28:01] years on Deaf Ears.

[28:03] So, I was very grateful for you shining

[28:06] light on this platform and

[28:09] um

[28:10] I think this is the first time I have

[28:13] publicly shared that I wanted to harm my

[28:15] son.

[28:16] >> Because now people are going to see you

[28:18] on the street and it takes a lot of

[28:19] courage to be able to say that.

[28:22] >> Thank you.

[28:23] But

[28:24] >> It takes a lot of courage.

[28:25] >> I mean, right before I was hospitalized,

[28:27] what actually made me become

[28:29] hospitalized is the night before I was

[28:31] up all night and I was sitting in one of

[28:33] my sons' empty bedrooms cuz they'd woken

[28:35] up and come to my room.

[28:37] And I was looking around I was seeing

[28:38] their toys and their toys had all just

[28:40] turned to weapons for me.

[28:43] And I saw this movie play out of this

[28:45] train of thought in my mind of

[28:46] strangling my son and me jumping out the

[28:48] second story window.

[28:50] And when I saw that play out in real

[28:52] life

[28:53] >> With Lindsay Clancy.

[28:54] >> With Lindsay Clancy. I looked at my

[28:56] husband I said this is lady who had the

[28:58] exact same intrusive thoughts as me. And

[29:01] the reason my story ended differently

[29:04] was because who my husband is. That's

[29:06] the only difference.

[29:07] >> Mhm.

[29:09] Trevor.

[29:13] Ayana and her husband Wagner went

[29:15] through a similar experience. What

[29:16] happened to you Ayana?

[29:18] >> So I knew about postpartum depression

[29:20] and postpartum anxiety and I knew just

[29:22] from like having friends who'd walked

[29:23] through it that I might not feel like

[29:24] myself after birth.

[29:26] But after I gave birth I felt euphoric.

[29:29] I felt I didn't need to sleep anymore.

[29:31] Um my C-section incision didn't hurt. Um

[29:34] I felt angry that people had told me to

[29:36] prepare for postpartum cuz I felt like

[29:38] it was the easiest thing that I'd ever

[29:40] been through. Um this lasted

[29:43] very very shortly. Um about 5 days

[29:45] postpartum I started to experience

[29:47] really violent mood swings where I was

[29:49] going up and down and up and

[29:50] >> you were just manic and not sleeping and

[29:53] thinking you don't need to sleep.

[29:54] >> Yeah.

[29:54] >> Yeah. And then?

[29:55] >> Yeah. Um I started to experience mood

[29:58] swings. My husband noticed that

[30:00] something was off. My parents noticed

[30:02] that something was off. Um I just wasn't

[30:04] I was very irritable. I just wasn't

[30:06] acting like myself. Um but I'd never

[30:09] been postpartum before. Even I could

[30:11] feel like this isn't what I expected it

[30:13] to be but maybe it's just hormones.

[30:16] I became very paranoid very suddenly

[30:18] that my husband wasn't safe for my baby,

[30:21] that my mom wasn't safe for my baby,

[30:23] that only I could protect my baby, feed

[30:25] her, change her, all of that. Um and at

[30:27] this point this was 8 days post 7 or 8

[30:29] days postpartum my husband called my

[30:31] psychiatrist and told her, "Hey, I think

[30:33] something's really wrong." And she told

[30:34] him, "If she doesn't improve she might

[30:36] need to be hospitalized. You know, I'm

[30:38] preparing you for the possibility." This

[30:40] was the summer of 2020. So this is kind

[30:42] of the peak of the pandemic. My baby was

[30:45] born early, so I was very worried about

[30:46] her health. So it just

[30:48] would not ideal for me to be in a

[30:49] hospital, but my psychiatrist was kind

[30:51] of adamant that it might need to happen

[30:53] if the paranoia built.

[30:55] Um

[30:56] >> And then you started hearing voices.

[30:58] >> Yeah.

[30:59] Um so then I started to hear what I

[31:01] called the voice of God. Um I told my

[31:04] husband that I was going to be a famous

[31:05] author, that my daughter was the second

[31:07] coming of Jesus.

[31:08] >> Your daughter Did you say your daughter

[31:09] was the second coming of Jesus?

[31:10] >> Oh, yeah.

[31:11] >> That's what the voice told you?

[31:12] >> Yes, yes. So I'm hearing all of these

[31:13] things, that I'm a special prophet. And

[31:15] all of the things that I was hearing

[31:16] were almost like

[31:18] >> So what Brooke described, is it Was it a

[31:19] man's voice?

[31:21] >> It was It's so hard for me to explain

[31:22] it. It It felt kind of like

[31:25] when I used to pray and want God to

[31:27] speak to me, what I'd always wanted to

[31:29] hear.

[31:29] >> Yeah.

[31:30] >> So it almost felt like it was coming

[31:31] from within me.

[31:32] >> Yeah.

[31:32] >> Um

[31:34] But yeah.

[31:34] >> And it told you you were a prophet, a

[31:36] special prophet, and your your child was

[31:38] the second coming of Jesus.

[31:39] >> Yes.

[31:40] >> Okay. And you believed that.

[31:42] >> Oh, I was ecstatic. I was over the moon.

[31:44] I was upset that he did not seem as

[31:46] excited as I was when I woke him up to

[31:48] tell him this. Obviously, he's thinking,

[31:49] "What is going on?"

[31:51] Uh but

[31:52] >> What did you think when she told you

[31:53] that,

[31:54] Wagner?

[31:55] >> Well, I think the hard part about all

[31:58] this was it when you're in that

[32:01] postpartum period, you don't really know

[32:03] what to expect, especially with your

[32:04] first child. It's like

[32:06] all of

[32:07] you know, the mood swings or what have

[32:09] you. Like she was maybe talking a little

[32:11] bit faster, talking a little bit more,

[32:12] all this stuff. And so like it feels

[32:14] unusual, but it doesn't necessarily feel

[32:16] like maybe this is not something that I

[32:19] shouldn't expect.

[32:19] >> feel dangerous.

[32:20] >> Right.

[32:21] >> Yeah.

[32:21] >> Um

[32:22] >> And that's why we're having this podcast

[32:24] because we're going to talk to a doctor

[32:26] later who says those are all the pink

[32:29] flags

[32:30] before you get to the red flag. So all

[32:33] of you you, Trevor, were seeing the pink

[32:35] flags. You were seeing the pink flags.

[32:38] You were experiencing the pink flags but

[32:40] didn't know it was a pink flag. So, you

[32:42] were You know something's off. And

[32:44] that's what the pink flag is, knowing

[32:46] something is off, right?

[32:47] >> Yeah, exactly. And so,

[32:49] when the delusion started coming out

[32:51] like, you know, I think she was talking

[32:53] about rewriting the Bible and um

[32:55] just just these things of like hearing

[32:58] the voice of God and all these different

[32:59] things. Um

[33:02] that was when I knew like something is

[33:04] seriously wrong.

[33:05] Uh and so, I kind of took the approach

[33:07] of I I think very similar to like maybe

[33:09] what Trevor

[33:11] um experienced but maybe like on an

[33:12] accelerated timeline. Like I was like

[33:14] just kind of watching her nonstop.

[33:16] Um but it got to that point uh

[33:19] like she mentioned maybe 7-8 days in

[33:22] where um we just reached a breaking

[33:24] point. I had to call the psychiatrist.

[33:26] >> Did you at any point feel that you could

[33:28] harm your baby?

[33:30] >> I was very worried that other people

[33:32] were going to harm her. So, I was ready

[33:34] to hurt or, you know, try to hurt anyone

[33:37] who

[33:38] even mentioned my baby. So, my delusions

[33:41] and my mind frame was centered around

[33:42] her being so special because she was

[33:44] Jesus that the world was going to try to

[33:45] kill her. So, that's I mean, but I feel

[33:48] lucky because you don't have control

[33:50] over how postpartum psychosis manifests,

[33:52] you know? So, lucky. I mean, it's still

[33:54] not It's not a great situation to be in

[33:55] but I didn't have delusions about

[33:57] harming her but I could have, you know?

[33:58] And I'm very aware that my story could

[34:00] have ended differently.

[34:01] >> What are your thoughts on the Lindsay

[34:03] Clancy case?

[34:04] >> I think

[34:07] I think that it's important to

[34:10] hold space and mourn and acknowledge

[34:13] like this incredible

[34:15] loss of life, this this unthinkable

[34:17] thing that happened, while also looking

[34:19] at a mother who, you know, we have

[34:21] documented evidence tried to get help,

[34:24] raised the red flag that something

[34:26] wasn't right. Um

[34:28] so, I think that I think that it's

[34:30] really hard especially to be online

[34:31] right now cuz it's like, you know,

[34:33] there's no room for nuance or at all

[34:35] ever. But um I because I feel like

[34:39] because I've been through postpartum

[34:40] psychosis and because I lost control

[34:42] over my thoughts and my actions, I have

[34:45] more empathy I think than maybe the

[34:47] average person would.

[34:48] >> Did you have to be hospitalized?

[34:49] >> I did, yes.

[34:49] >> Yes, for how long?

[34:50] >> 17 days.

[34:51] >> 17 days.

[34:53] And after 17 days you're given

[34:55] medication and you're better?

[34:57] >> Well, I wasn't delusional anymore.

[34:59] So I mean yes, as far as the psychosis

[35:01] went the symptoms the symptoms stopped

[35:03] about, you know, 14 days into my

[35:06] hospitalization.

[35:07] >> Yeah.

[35:07] >> Um I struggled so much about being away

[35:10] from my daughter for that time because I

[35:11] wasn't allowed visitors. I wasn't

[35:12] allowed

[35:14] anything, you know, as far as I could

[35:15] tell.

[35:15] >> 17 days you're better?

[35:17] >> Yeah, well yeah, well enough to go home,

[35:18] yeah.

[35:18] >> Well, enough to go home. Well, to help

[35:20] us understand

[35:23] what postpartum psychosis is, we invited

[35:26] top experts in their fields to be here.

[35:29] Dr. Burnstoff is a reproductive

[35:32] psychiatrist and the CEO, co-founder and

[35:35] medical director of the Motherhood

[35:37] Center in New York City, which treats

[35:39] pregnant and new moms and we welcome you

[35:42] here to this conversation. So let's

[35:44] start with the basics. I think people

[35:46] are confused

[35:48] by the difference between postpartum

[35:50] depression and postpartum psychosis.

[35:53] What what is the difference?

[35:55] >> Well, first thank you for having this

[35:57] conversation on the national stage and

[36:00] for your stories. I really feel for you

[36:02] and know how hard it is to get help.

[36:05] The difference is postpartum depression

[36:08] is what we know as depression. It's

[36:10] happening in the postpartum and can

[36:11] happen during pregnancy.

[36:13] You're not interested in things you used

[36:15] to be, low mood, you may be exhausted,

[36:18] not motivated, not really wanting you're

[36:21] barely pushing yourself out of bed to

[36:23] get things done, but you can look quite

[36:24] fine.

[36:25] And in the worst cases you can feel

[36:27] suicidal.

[36:29] Okay?

[36:30] Postpartum psychosis is completely

[36:33] different.

[36:34] >> Does Okay, so so before you finish that

[36:37] answer, does postpartum depression lead

[36:40] to postpartum psychosis?

[36:43] >> It can.

[36:43] >> It can.

[36:44] >> It can. You can have psychotic thinking

[36:47] within a depression.

[36:48] >> Can you have psychotic Can you have

[36:50] postpartum psychosis without ever being

[36:53] depressed?

[36:55] >> You can. You will also have mood

[36:57] symptoms at some point, kind of like you

[37:00] described, Iona, right? That you start

[37:02] with the psychotic symptoms, and then we

[37:05] haven't heard your whole story, kind of

[37:07] how things end up.

[37:09] But postpartum psychosis is a medical

[37:13] emergency. It is a break with reality

[37:16] that requires almost invariably

[37:19] hospitalization.

[37:20] >> Okay. I think that's really important

[37:22] for everybody who's ticking and talking

[37:25] to get the word out that it is a medical

[37:29] emergency.

[37:32] >> And when you Googled 9 years ago, it it

[37:36] it didn't note that. That's what you're

[37:38] saying.

[37:38] >> Yeah, it did not. Had it noted that,

[37:42] I think that would have changed how my

[37:46] story went. I don't think I would have

[37:47] been another year before I got help.

[37:50] >> Yeah. Okay, so and how do you know

[37:54] whether it you are in psychosis or

[37:56] whether it's just depression?

[37:58] >> Well, as described, psychosis can be

[38:01] paranoia, hearing things, seeing things

[38:05] that aren't there, but you believe them.

[38:07] There's a delusional quality to it,

[38:09] right? A fixed false belief that what

[38:12] you are seeing or hearing is absolutely

[38:15] true. It wouldn't have mattered if you

[38:17] asked your husband if he saw it. And I

[38:19] love how you said that, you were

[38:20] gaslighting yourself.

[38:22] I mean,

[38:23] so well said and it's really true that

[38:26] you so unshakably believe what you are

[38:30] seeing, hearing, and feeling is true.

[38:33] Nobody else may and that's why people

[38:35] don't share. You seem to somewhat

[38:37] incredulous as you were hearing she

[38:39] didn't tell her husband. That's not

[38:41] uncommon. People feel crazy. They don't

[38:45] want to be labeled that way. They don't

[38:47] want their kids taken away should they

[38:49] tell a medical professional, right? We

[38:51] have the responsibility to you know call

[38:54] child protective services if we think

[38:56] there's harm that could come to a baby.

[38:58] >> Not think, but

[38:59] you know, I always wondered

[39:01] if someone tells you that I'm thinking

[39:03] of harming my children, you should

[39:05] believe that.

[39:07] >> 100%. 1 billion percent.

[39:10] >> Okay, so if someone says I'm thinking of

[39:11] harming my children and they're willing

[39:13] to admit that they're thinking of

[39:14] harming their children, shouldn't their

[39:16] children be taken away?

[39:17] >> I wouldn't say that. I would say it is

[39:20] there you've got your emergency right in

[39:22] front of you. You need to get to the

[39:24] hospital. You do need separation. I mean

[39:26] Trevor, you did all the right things.

[39:28] I'm just sorry you had to make a home

[39:29] hospital.

[39:30] >> Yeah.

[39:31] >> Right? You did the things we say. It is

[39:33] protocol to say don't be alone with a

[39:36] baby. Don't be alone yourself.

[39:38] >> So you should be immediately separated

[39:40] from your children.

[39:40] >> Correct. Correct, but not taken away. I

[39:42] don't scare anyone with that. This

[39:44] right?

[39:45] >> You need treatment and you often need

[39:47] hospitalization for your safety and for

[39:50] your baby's safety.

[39:52] >> Okay. You need treatment.

[39:54] >> Treatment. And hospitalization.

[39:56] >> Okay. And so

[39:58] you're

[39:58] we talked about the pink flags.

[40:00] >> Yeah.

[40:00] >> So the pink flags are

[40:03] >> yeah. Well, this is red.

[40:04] >> Yeah.

[40:05] >> This is

[40:06] >> By the time you're in psychosis, you're

[40:07] in red.

[40:08] >> You're in red, right? When people are

[40:10] acting out of character, when they start

[40:12] to not be behaving like themselves,

[40:15] yeah. When you a little off and you're

[40:17] thinking to yourself, "Huh, that doesn't

[40:19] seem right." That those are pink flags

[40:22] and I know we're going to hear more

[40:23] about that, but you were discussing a

[40:26] red flag. When someone

[40:28] can say, "I am worried. I am going to

[40:31] hurt my child or I could." Do not pass

[40:34] go, directly to the emergency room. Or

[40:36] if you hear paranoia, I had a patient

[40:38] once, I heard on the phone 7 days after

[40:41] she delivered, I'd seen her in the

[40:42] hospital doing great. Her husband called

[40:45] me and I could hear in the background,

[40:47] she was in the background and she said,

[40:48] "Who is that woman you are on the phone

[40:51] with? You're having an affair with her."

[40:53] And I said,

[40:54] "We have an emergency on our hands. You

[40:57] need to Can I meet you at the hospital?

[40:59] Mhm. Can you get in a taxi? Do you want

[41:01] me to call an ambulance? Where are you?"

[41:03] That was it. She was done. She was going

[41:06] to be hospitalized for that emergency

[41:09] postpartum psychosis.

[41:10] >> Okay, I want to show you this uh Lindsay

[41:13] Clancy's attorney Kevin Reddington gave

[41:16] an interview this week on Good Morning

[41:17] America. Take a quick look at what he

[41:19] said.

[41:20] >> A lot of the interplay between the

[41:23] medications, between the selective

[41:25] serotonin reuptake inhibitors, the SSRI

[41:27] drugs,

[41:28] in combination with that, it's it's

[41:30] horrific what what these people are

[41:32] dealing with.

[41:33] >> And and and what do you say to those

[41:34] critics who say this is a

[41:35] rationalization? What what we're talking

[41:37] about here is just plain evil.

[41:39] >> Oh, please. It's not It's not evil.

[41:41] These people don't understand that they

[41:43] they they don't know what she went

[41:45] through. They didn't see her text

[41:46] messages. They didn't see her journal.

[41:48] They didn't see the notes that she

[41:49] wrote. They didn't see the text she sent

[41:51] her mother on October saying, "Mommy,

[41:53] can you please come to here? I I I am

[41:55] sick. Something's wrong." And it was a

[41:57] result of the medications. They don't

[41:58] know about the number of times that she

[42:00] reached out. She went to the woman and

[42:01] infant. She went to the suicide

[42:03] hotlines. She reached out to everybody

[42:05] and anybody that would listen to her and

[42:07] kept saying, "I am not good. I am not

[42:09] well." And it was was

[42:12] >> So, Dr. Brendel,

[42:13] uh what about

[42:16] for depression?

[42:18] >> They're wonderful medications.

[42:20] >> us what that is.

[42:21] >> Okay, selective serotonin reuptake

[42:23] inhibitors. Those are medications like

[42:25] Prozac or Zoloft or Lexapro. Right?

[42:28] They're the most very commonly used.

[42:30] >> Okay. For postpartum depression,

[42:33] >> Sure.

[42:34] >> what kind of impact do the SSRI drugs

[42:37] then have on psychosis? So, you're in

[42:39] depression, you're

[42:40] >> Yes.

[42:42] Yes.

[42:42] >> and what happens?

[42:44] >> So, these medications in a certain

[42:46] population that is predisposed

[42:48] biologically, if they are given this

[42:51] medication, can flip into mania.

[42:55] It is a known

[42:56] side effect {slash} something that can

[42:59] happen. If someone is not responding to

[43:01] a medication like this, they have kind

[43:03] of an agitated, sometimes euphoric,

[43:06] experience or dysphoric where they don't

[43:08] feel good. You think to yourself, "Huh,

[43:11] that's not working. What's going on?"

[43:13] They're having an unusual reaction to

[43:15] this.

[43:15] >> But, isn't it the case that I I I've

[43:17] known

[43:18] several people who've suffered from

[43:20] mania. And that the case with mania is

[43:24] you're feeling so good, you're feeling

[43:25] so high, you're cleaning the you can

[43:27] stay up all night, you can party, you

[43:29] can do all those things. You don't know

[43:31] you're manic.

[43:32] >> No. You lose insight.

[43:33] >> to a manic person who realized they were

[43:35] manic.

[43:36] >> Nope. Many people really enjoy the

[43:38] state. Yeah. Right? It can also be quite

[43:40] irritable or it can be euphoric. Yeah.

[43:42] But, you have no insight. You don't know

[43:45] what's happening. And this medication

[43:47] can trip people into What it does is it

[43:49] exposes a previously un-earthed bipolar

[43:53] disorder.

[43:54] >> And what happens if you are on an SSRI

[43:58] drug and now you are also psychotic? The

[44:02] SSRI drugs impact psychosis how?

[44:07] >> Well, when you're you can also become

[44:09] psychotic. So, if you think the

[44:12] medication is working, you might

[44:13] increase the dose. You may not recognize

[44:16] that it's not working. Oh, it doesn't

[44:17] seem to be helping with the depression

[44:18] or the anxiety. I'm going to increase

[44:20] the dose. The exact wrong thing to do.

[44:23] You actually need to bring another

[44:25] medications and get someone off that

[44:27] medication that's stimulating,

[44:29] activating them into a state of

[44:31] bipolarity.

[44:32] >> So, are you saying SSRI drugs stimulate

[44:35] or activate psychosis?

[44:37] >> They can.

[44:38] >> They can. Okay.

[44:40] Dr. Camilla Phillips is an obstetrician

[44:43] and gynecologist. So, what happens in

[44:46] the brains of of moms with this

[44:50] or do we call it a disorder or is it a

[44:52] mental illness? What do we call it?

[44:54] >> Well, it's a spectrum really, right? And

[44:56] I think

[44:57] >> I

[44:57] >> the quick answer is we don't know.

[44:59] >> Okay.

[44:59] >> And that's the problem. We don't have

[45:01] enough funding and research to really

[45:03] understand what goes on in the

[45:05] postpartum. What the data suggests

[45:07] though is that it is multifactorial.

[45:10] When you think about the significant,

[45:13] drastic changes that the postpartum

[45:16] brain experiences, a decrease in

[45:18] progesterone, a decrease in estrogen, if

[45:21] you know anyone who's experienced

[45:23] puberty or menopause, you know that the

[45:26] human brain is hormonal.

[45:28] >> Yeah.

[45:29] >> Those are profound shifts. We also have

[45:32] to consider things we don't think about

[45:34] and that's what you mentioned, the

[45:35] serotonin, the dopamine, the

[45:38] norepinephrine. These are the signals

[45:41] that your brain sends to other parts of

[45:43] your brain that act with emotion and

[45:45] rationalization and understanding of

[45:48] your behavior. We know very little about

[45:50] that. There is data that shows that the

[45:53] postpartum brain for someone who has

[45:56] depression versus psychosis, looks very

[46:00] different than the brain of a postpartum

[46:02] woman who doesn't. So, there are some

[46:04] structural components there that are

[46:06] likely really important and genetics,

[46:10] right? We have millions of women who

[46:13] deliver every year. Only about 10 to 15%

[46:17] go on to have postpartum depression and

[46:19] even fewer psychosis. So, there is

[46:21] probably a genetic component in the

[46:24] brain that when you combine new baby

[46:27] hormones, sleep deprivation, really tips

[46:30] them over and exposes their

[46:32] vulnerability to psychosis.

[46:35] >> Yeah, I I heard that the statistic for

[46:38] uh psychosis is

[46:41] uh about 8,000 women a year.

[46:42] >> 1 to 2,000.

[46:44] >> But, that's still a lot of women.

[46:46] >> 8,000 a year

[46:47] new moms.

[46:48] >> Significant.

[46:49] >> Yes.

[46:49] >> It's really significant and when we see

[46:51] the repercussions of what that psychosis

[46:53] can lead to when it comes to children,

[46:57] parenting, family relationships, jobs.

[46:59] This is a This is a medical emergency.

[47:02] >> Well, it was uh presented in court that

[47:04] the day Lindsay killed her children,

[47:07] she took her daughter to the

[47:09] pediatrician and she played in the snow

[47:11] with her kids and she called CVS about a

[47:14] medication and ordered take out for

[47:17] dinner. Everyone who interacted with her

[47:20] that day said that she appeared normal.

[47:24] And uh Dr. Hader is a perinatal

[47:28] psychiatrist and I think people really

[47:31] struggle with this idea that

[47:34] they can't wrap their brains around how

[47:37] can someone appear to be functioning so

[47:41] well as these women have described, but

[47:43] then have those dark thoughts. I think

[47:45] that's what we don't understand.

[47:47] >> Yeah. It's a great question. Thank you

[47:49] for having me. So, it's interesting

[47:51] speaking very broadly about postpartum

[47:53] psychosis. It in fact it it's a spectrum

[47:56] and someone with postpartum psychosis

[47:59] does not have to be continuously

[48:01] psychotic in order to have postpartum

[48:03] psychosis.

[48:04] >> Okay, I think it's really important. Dr.

[48:05] Kemi, you just said that and you just

[48:07] said that. I think it's important for

[48:08] everybody who's weighing in on this to

[48:11] understand many things in life are on

[48:14] the spectrum.

[48:15] And the fact that both of you have said

[48:17] it and I've read it many to other places

[48:19] that it's a spectrum. Not every one

[48:22] woman's case is not like another woman's

[48:24] case is not like a another woman's case.

[48:26] So we we need to look at it in a more

[48:28] broad view.

[48:29] >> And I'm so glad you highlighted that

[48:31] Oprah because in fact well one can be

[48:35] one can be experiencing postpartum

[48:37] psychosis and still be highly

[48:39] functional. She she can be doing pick

[48:41] up, drop off, getting on through her

[48:43] day, making chocolate chip muffins with

[48:45] her toddler and have organized

[48:47] functional thoughts and behaviors at

[48:50] times and still fit within the spectrum.

[48:53] And you know, having organized

[48:55] >> hear the voices and then go make lunch.

[48:57] >> Absolutely or during lunch or maybe the

[49:00] voices are telling her not to tell

[49:01] anyone, right? Maybe that's why she

[49:03] hasn't spoken up and there's also the

[49:04] component of shame and guilt

[49:06] and thank you for sharing that. So I I

[49:09] think it's really important to emphasize

[49:11] it is it is on a spectrum. And so when I

[49:14] had talked about the pink flags, I I'm

[49:16] so glad that a lot of people are talking

[49:18] about it because I originally wrote it

[49:19] in my op-ed in Time magazine and it took

[49:21] off and I really wrote that from a

[49:24] strong point of education where I wanted

[49:27] to teach others that pink flags still is

[49:30] on the spectrum of postpartum psychosis.

[49:33] Pink flags is where lives can be saved

[49:36] and I really refer to them as quieter

[49:38] signs and symptoms postpartum psychosis

[49:41] that often go missed. And you know, this

[49:44] is the illness that kind of happens in

[49:46] plain sight. So it's so critical to talk

[49:48] about the subtle signs and symptoms that

[49:51] develop like you two had mentioned, you

[49:53] know, early onset paranoia, maybe some

[49:55] early onset hypomania, the mood is

[49:57] changing, um especially in the context

[50:01] of of disrupted sleep and sudden

[50:03] interrupted sleep after having a baby.

[50:05] >> I read that I I I read your article and

[50:07] this is a thing. I read that but I'm

[50:09] thinking

[50:10] isn't every new mother having

[50:12] interrupted sleep

[50:13] >> Yeah.

[50:14] >> or not getting enough sleep? So, how can

[50:16] that be a sign when everybody is just

[50:18] so many people, I won't say everybody

[50:20] but a lot of women who don't have help

[50:22] and don't have support and even those

[50:23] who do

[50:25] the sleep deprivation is just like

[50:27] >> Yeah.

[50:28] >> top of the list. You want to you want to

[50:29] >> I was just going to say, I don't think

[50:31] people realize how much insomnia and

[50:33] sleep deprivation plays into this. Um

[50:37] sleep is actually a human right and we

[50:39] forget that. And when you're sleep

[50:41] deprived, that is a form of torture.

[50:43] >> Right.

[50:44] >> Your brain literally cannot process,

[50:47] make decisions, have any form of

[50:50] executive functioning. And so, when you

[50:52] are having a changing hormonal brain,

[50:55] your body is aching, you're charged with

[50:57] taking care of this newborn and then you

[50:59] inject um insomnia with sleep

[51:02] deprivation, it literally becomes a form

[51:05] of torture. And so, we tell people, I do

[51:07] it all the time, sleep when the baby

[51:10] sleeps, sleep when the baby sleeps. But

[51:11] what happens is you go clean the kitchen

[51:14] cuz you have to. You have to feed

[51:16] yourself and dare you want to take a

[51:18] shower and so it compounds itself.

[51:21] Within that first 24 hours, if you're

[51:22] not used to sleep deprivation, you can

[51:25] start having disordered thinking. By 3

[51:28] days

[51:29] hallucinations, delusions can easily set

[51:33] in. So, we joke, oh she's tired, she's a

[51:35] new mom. This is serious.

[51:37] >> Hallucinations and and once that sets in

[51:40] does that lead to psychosis?

[51:42] >> It's not going to happen in the person

[51:45] who isn't predisposed.

[51:47] Right, you're just going to be a mess if

[51:50] 3 days in you haven't slept. If you are

[51:53] somebody who has a history of bipolar

[51:55] disorder or this is going to be the

[51:57] break where you are going to become

[51:59] bipolar, we didn't know it, you're going

[52:02] to have a different response. And I and

[52:04] I want to make another really important

[52:06] point, I think. Postpartum psychosis,

[52:08] the waxing and waning has really

[52:10] fascinated people and and it makes you

[52:12] feel like, is this believable? It is

[52:14] different than schizophrenics or

[52:17] schizoaffective disorder, primary

[52:19] psychotic disorders. We don't think of

[52:22] postpartum psychosis like that. It's the

[52:24] same word, but it's a different

[52:26] presentation.

[52:28] These moms are not walking around

[52:30] talking to themselves, hallucinating,

[52:33] stopping you on the street, you know,

[52:35] that's not what we're seeing. That's a

[52:36] chronic illness. This is a temporary,

[52:40] treatable, and fully recoverable

[52:43] illness.

[52:44] That's postpartum psychosis. It's It's

[52:46] different.

[52:47] >> And it's happening because of the

[52:50] hormonal imbalance?

[52:51] >> because of biological predisposition,

[52:53] and because of the hormonal change.

[52:55] Different people are sensitive. All

[52:57] combined.

[52:58] >> I want to bring in our audience now.

[52:59] Jocelyn is here with her daughter,

[53:01] Britney. And I hear the two of you also

[53:03] don't agree about this case.

[53:06] Mother and daughter, yes.

[53:07] >> Hi, Oprah.

[53:08] >> Hi.

[53:08] >> Thank you so much. I'm so happy you're

[53:10] bringing up this conversation.

[53:12] Um, yes, I'm you know, my daughter,

[53:13] Britney, and we have two different

[53:15] thoughts on this um

[53:17] topic. Um, me having gone through

[53:21] postpartum depression when I had her,

[53:23] kind of like I feel for Lindsay and what

[53:26] she's going through.

[53:27] >> Did you have a word for it when you were

[53:29] going through it with her? Did you know

[53:30] what it was?

[53:31] >> Well, no. Well, back then postpartum

[53:33] depression wasn't a thing, so going to a

[53:36] doctor was like literally, you're

[53:37] depressed, you'll be fine. Um, you'll

[53:39] get over it.

[53:41] Um, but you know your body and I knew

[53:42] something was totally wrong with me. Um,

[53:45] they didn't want to get up, didn't want

[53:47] to eat, couldn't stop crying. And the

[53:49] saddest thing is like I didn't want to

[53:51] take care of my baby. I mean, I'm so

[53:53] glad that mine wasn't as bad as some of

[53:56] these other mothers.

[53:57] >> went into psychosis?

[53:58] >> Uh, no. Not where I heard voices, but I

[54:02] just didn't the bonding with my

[54:04] daughter, it was just not there. Like I

[54:06] didn't even want to hold her or you

[54:08] know, never mind like feed her or

[54:10] anything like that.

[54:11] >> So, you all are in differing about the

[54:14] case.

[54:15] >> We are.

[54:16] >> Yeah.

[54:16] >> Yeah, we have opposing views.

[54:18] >> We do, and I think that you know, I said

[54:19] to her, I think since she hasn't gone

[54:20] through it, she's not a mother, so she

[54:22] doesn't know how it it feels to have a

[54:25] child.

[54:26] >> And you disagree.

[54:27] >> I disagree. I am I feel like I'm not

[54:29] with the majority right now. I do

[54:31] believe she's a murderer. Um,

[54:34] I'm an

[54:35] >> you've heard today, you still

[54:36] >> I'm an advocate for mental health.

[54:37] >> Yeah.

[54:38] >> It's just unfortunate like

[54:40] and she's so quick to say it. She's

[54:41] like, you've never had a baby, you don't

[54:43] understand what it's like to go through

[54:45] all the hormonal shifts,

[54:47] but I just feel as though

[54:49] these were not instant deaths. They

[54:51] weren't gunshots to the head. She was

[54:54] there strangling her kids

[54:57] three times.

[54:58] >> Mhm.

[54:59] >> You're telling me like even after the

[55:00] first time she couldn't snap out of it.

[55:02] She you're watching the life leave your

[55:04] kids eyes, you know?

[55:06] So,

[55:07] I know. I hear everybody's opinions, and

[55:09] God bless mothers, but at the same

[55:12] I just don't understand how we can

[55:14] empathize with somebody that

[55:17] they weren't strangers. They were her

[55:18] kids, and she was able to

[55:22] grab those exercise bands. That that

[55:24] took a lot of effort, and it's it breaks

[55:27] my heart

[55:29] that these young kids gone through that,

[55:31] but

[55:33] it's

[55:34] I'm grateful that this conversation is

[55:36] happening because I do believe like

[55:37] woman

[55:39] um

[55:40] they are on the back burner when it

[55:42] comes to mental health. If this was a

[55:43] man like there would be like a law the

[55:46] next day or something going on but

[55:48] >> There would have been research.

[55:50] It would have been funded.

[55:51] >> Something right away. But it's just I

[55:54] just feel like with her it's becoming

[55:56] she's becoming a mascot for

[56:00] just I feel like so many mothers

[56:02] empathize with her so much that they

[56:04] want to put her out there, make her a

[56:06] mascot and

[56:08] they're turning something so negative

[56:09] into a movement.

[56:11] >> Okay. I hear that. So y'all will

[56:13] continue you all will not be agreeing no

[56:15] time soon.

[56:16] No we not. Thank you for being here. So

[56:19] so Alicia is in the audience. Where do

[56:21] you stand Alicia? Alicia?

[56:23] >> Um so I do believe that she had was

[56:27] going through mental health and I'm and

[56:29] I'm sorry for all the women that that

[56:30] happened to. But I feel as though that

[56:34] just because you have a reason kind of

[56:36] doesn't give you an excuse. Um yes,

[56:39] there needs to be more funding. Yes, you

[56:41] know, like this is a real thing. But at

[56:45] the time when she was reaching out for

[56:46] help, not the time when she was in

[56:48] psychosis killing her children, sh- you

[56:51] didn't get the help. She was in enough

[56:53] state of mind where she knew that she

[56:55] needed help, why didn't she just remove

[56:57] herself?

[56:58] >> Yeah.

[56:59] >> You she had a husband living there. She

[57:01] could have left the house, act like she

[57:03] was going to the store and came back

[57:06] called, "Hey, I can't come back home

[57:08] because this is how I'm feeling." And I

[57:10] feel like

[57:11] sometimes that's a hard choice for

[57:13] someone to make, you know, but

[57:15] you can't just like now that it's got to

[57:18] psychosis, now we have to give her an

[57:20] excuse for murder and that's where I

[57:22] stand with that.

[57:23] >> Yeah.

[57:24] So I think one of the lessons from Thank

[57:25] you for sharing that Alicia. One of the

[57:27] lessons from this conversation, if you

[57:30] are a mother or know of a mother or at

[57:34] some point in your life are going to

[57:35] encounter this experience is to know the

[57:40] moment you start having those thoughts,

[57:42] you are in trouble.

[57:45] You are in trouble. That you that you

[57:47] are in a state of emergency and need to

[57:49] get help. And anybody who hears your

[57:52] friend, your mother, your sister say,

[57:55] "I'm having these thoughts." You then

[57:58] that is the red flag that is gone from

[58:02] pink to red. You then need to take

[58:04] action. So, if you know, her her husband

[58:07] who like was like you was like you

[58:10] didn't know this at all when he heard

[58:12] her say, "I want to harm the children."

[58:15] That was the moment to do something. Is

[58:17] that Is Am I accurate here?

[58:19] >> Yeah, I I also want to say it's it's not

[58:21] acknowledging the pressure on women

[58:24] though, right? When you're not well to

[58:27] ask for that help or when you believe

[58:30] that you're supposed to do it all and

[58:32] you're carrying the mother load, society

[58:35] expects you to be perfect. So, what are

[58:38] we supposed to do? It's a very

[58:40] confounding position. This bliss myth of

[58:43] what it is to be a mother is so

[58:45] societally ingrained that it is very

[58:49] hard to come forward. And I don't think

[58:51] we can ignore that in this discussion.

[58:54] >> Yeah. Michelle Oberman wrote an opinion

[58:57] piece in the New York Times titled I

[58:59] study women who killed their children.

[59:01] Lindsay Clancy deserves mercy. Michelle

[59:03] is a professor at Santa Clara University

[59:05] School of Law and the author of When

[59:08] Mothers Kill: Interviews from Prison.

[59:10] Michelle, why do you believe Lindsay

[59:13] should be acquitted by reason of

[59:15] insanity and can you break down what

[59:17] that means for us?

[59:19] >> Yeah. So, I'm going to start with the

[59:22] way in which we judge insanity, which

[59:25] even though we're in 2026, dates back to

[59:28] 1843.

[59:31] Our standard for insanity, the way that

[59:33] we drew it up in 1843,

[59:35] is could she know the difference between

[59:37] right and wrong?

[59:40] And the like just to set the stage when

[59:42] a criminal would come in to be tried in

[59:44] 1843 and there was a question about

[59:47] whether or not they understood the

[59:48] difference between right and wrong, you

[59:50] would bring an expert into the court and

[59:51] they would take a measurement of the

[59:53] cranium. And that's how you could know.

[59:55] They would apply on well the the size of

[59:57] the brain would indicate that this

[59:59] person is criminologic in their intent.

[1:00:01] So that's our legal standard. Around 60

[1:00:05] years ago, Massachusetts,

[1:00:07] one of literally less than a handful of

[1:00:09] states in the country, modernized its

[1:00:12] insanity defense to include could she

[1:00:14] control her behavior. So does she know

[1:00:16] right or wrong and could she control her

[1:00:19] behavior? And I I mean, thank you so

[1:00:21] much to both of you for telling your

[1:00:23] stories cuz I think that answers the

[1:00:25] question of why this insanity test

[1:00:28] doesn't really map on to postpartum

[1:00:30] psychosis. I mean,

[1:00:32] clearly you both knew the difference

[1:00:35] between right and wrong and there were

[1:00:37] moments at which you could control your

[1:00:38] behavior and then moments at which you

[1:00:41] really couldn't and the intrusiveness of

[1:00:44] the voice made it unbelievably difficult

[1:00:48] to control your emotions. And when we

[1:00:50] put somebody like Lindsay Clancy under

[1:00:53] that legal test, we end up with the

[1:00:56] debate that we're having right now in

[1:00:58] social media, throughout the country,

[1:01:01] and indeed throughout the world. Like,

[1:01:03] did she know right and wrong? Did she

[1:01:05] have the ability to control her

[1:01:06] behavior? Well, she took the child to a

[1:01:08] pediatrician's appointment. They They

[1:01:10] They made snow angels. And

[1:01:13] honestly, like the reason why I feel

[1:01:16] like this should be a not guilty for

[1:01:17] reasons of insanity is that I think

[1:01:19] anybody looking at the case has a really

[1:01:21] hard time thinking that she was anything

[1:01:24] but really, really mentally ill.

[1:01:27] And that raises the question of well,

[1:01:29] what's the purpose of punishment?

[1:01:33] >> When you believe that because 11 of the

[1:01:34] 12 jurors reportedly were in favor, 11

[1:01:38] of the 12 reportedly were in favor of a

[1:01:40] not guilty by reason of insanity

[1:01:43] verdict, that this is a real watershed

[1:01:45] moment. Why do you think so?

[1:01:47] >> So, I'm old enough that I actually have

[1:01:50] been studying these cases almost as long

[1:01:52] as you've been interested in them and

[1:01:55] in fact I was on your show talking about

[1:01:58] Andrea Yates way back when.

[1:01:59] >> Mhm.

[1:02:00] >> Um and the difference between that

[1:02:03] moment and now is the watershed moment

[1:02:05] because

[1:02:07] while in both cases it's so hard to look

[1:02:10] away from the dead babies,

[1:02:14] the difference between Andrea Yates

[1:02:16] coverage, which was a just like make us

[1:02:18] not look at this, we can't look at this

[1:02:20] anymore,

[1:02:22] and this moment where there is an

[1:02:25] outpouring of conversation around mental

[1:02:27] health and mental illness,

[1:02:30] that is the watershed moment. And for

[1:02:32] those of us that have spent time, you

[1:02:34] know, the stay-at-home jurors, if you

[1:02:36] will, watching this case,

[1:02:38] no matter how much time we've spent,

[1:02:39] it's not as much time as those jurors

[1:02:41] sitting in Duxbury. And the fact that 11

[1:02:45] out of those 12 sat and listened to the

[1:02:48] terrible details of the case and walked

[1:02:50] away saying, "This person is not guilty.

[1:02:53] We cannot blame her. We We must excuse

[1:02:57] this terrible crime."

[1:02:58] >> That means there's a shift in the

[1:02:59] culture.

[1:03:00] >> Yeah.

[1:03:01] >> For being open to even hearing what

[1:03:03] women have to say.

[1:03:04] >> Right.

[1:03:04] >> Yeah.

[1:03:05] >> I mean and I think it's it's like a

[1:03:07] little bit related to COVID as well.

[1:03:09] Like we all lived through a time where

[1:03:11] mental health and mental illness became

[1:03:14] really legible, right? Like we were just

[1:03:17] struggling. And then that plus social

[1:03:20] media has women telling these stories

[1:03:23] that until now were so shameful that we

[1:03:25] kept them locked up. One in five women

[1:03:28] experience some sort of perinatal mental

[1:03:30] illness, OCD, insomnia, anxiety, right?

[1:03:34] I mean, it is real that it is a struggle

[1:03:38] for many women to get through the

[1:03:40] pregnancy.

[1:03:41] >> I think it's unfair, as we were saying

[1:03:43] earlier, uh as you all were saying

[1:03:45] earlier, that it's on a spectrum. It's

[1:03:47] unfair for a woman to judge another

[1:03:50] woman based upon what happened to her.

[1:03:52] >> 100%.

[1:03:52] >> To say, "Well, when I went through it

[1:03:54] and I was able to stay up all night and

[1:03:56] I was I didn't have any sleep and I

[1:03:58] didn't want to kill my child." I think

[1:03:59] it's unfair because it's a a spectrum.

[1:04:02] It's not just about what's happening in

[1:04:03] your brain, it's about what's happening

[1:04:05] in in in everyone's brain, and there is

[1:04:07] a spectrum and everyone's different. I

[1:04:09] read that many other countries have uh

[1:04:12] guidelines for postpartum women who kill

[1:04:15] their children. Can you explain what

[1:04:17] they are doing differently than we are

[1:04:19] doing differently?

[1:04:20] >> Yeah, so um in England, um which is um

[1:04:25] it I mean, it's sort of a surprising

[1:04:26] thing. Over 100 years ago, they passed a

[1:04:29] law called their infanticide act. And

[1:04:31] when a mother kills a child under the

[1:04:34] age of 12 months, even though it it

[1:04:38] might look like an intentional killing,

[1:04:40] first-degree murder, she's charged with

[1:04:42] infanticide and the the infanticide

[1:04:45] statute says that the you know, because

[1:04:47] the balance of her mind was disturbed by

[1:04:50] reasons of childbirth or lactation, it's

[1:04:53] prosecuted as manslaughter and the

[1:04:55] presumptive sentence is probation and

[1:04:58] counseling. There's no public spectacle.

[1:05:01] There also is no higher rate of

[1:05:03] infanticide in England. It's not like,

[1:05:05] "Ooh, without this without first-degree

[1:05:07] murder, everybody's killing their

[1:05:09] children." Um that that law has been

[1:05:12] replicated in between 20 and 30

[1:05:14] countries around the world. And it's not

[1:05:17] a perfect law. I mean, to be sure, some

[1:05:20] of the mothers deserve a full out not

[1:05:23] guilty for reasons of insanity rather

[1:05:25] than a manslaughter conviction. And

[1:05:28] maybe some of them actually don't

[1:05:30] deserve the manslaughter. They weren't

[1:05:32] insane or mentally ill at all, and they

[1:05:34] deserve a guilty verdict. But what it

[1:05:36] does is it acknowledges that there is

[1:05:38] something so different about these cases

[1:05:41] that our conventional tools of

[1:05:44] first-degree murder or the insanity

[1:05:46] defense, that binary choice that the

[1:05:48] jury in Duxbury faced, like those tools

[1:05:51] are just not up to the task. And so it

[1:05:53] doesn't have to be the kind of media

[1:05:55] circus that we're seeing in this case.

[1:05:59] Um, we can actually resolve the cases as

[1:06:02] as um, you know, within a healthcare

[1:06:04] system and and find ways to focus on

[1:06:08] prevention and mental healthcare.

[1:06:11] >> And also, can we talk about the fact

[1:06:13] that we are a culture that expects the

[1:06:16] woman to do every fricking thing.

[1:06:20] >> Yeah.

[1:06:21] Yeah.

[1:06:21] >> You know, we should take a lesson from

[1:06:23] some other cultures for whom for whom

[1:06:26] the the women come together, the sisters

[1:06:28] help, the mothers help, the people in

[1:06:31] the community help, the village help,

[1:06:34] the when the child comes into the

[1:06:35] village, you know, that takes a village

[1:06:37] to raise a child. We we we're the

[1:06:39] culture that thinks we are the only ones

[1:06:41] who should be responsible for the baby.

[1:06:44] >> Yeah, and it wasn't always like that. I

[1:06:46] mean, industrialization, like the late

[1:06:49] 19th century, changed everything. People

[1:06:52] moved to cities, they have smaller

[1:06:54] families, they're in the house, they're

[1:06:55] far from extended family, they don't

[1:06:57] know their

[1:06:57] >> that, women were

[1:06:58] >> Throughout human history,

[1:07:00] >> to help other women.

[1:07:01] >> is the way humans raise babies. Like

[1:07:03] throughout human history, there was

[1:07:05] somebody there to help that new mom.

[1:07:07] Like there was always somebody else to

[1:07:08] hold the baby. And then we move into

[1:07:10] these little places, right? And like I'm

[1:07:12] moved by both of your stories because

[1:07:14] you've got supportive spouses and enough

[1:07:17] money to access mental health care. I

[1:07:20] mean, how does this look when you're

[1:07:22] just by yourself in the house with your

[1:07:24] two little babies and no health

[1:07:26] insurance?

[1:07:29] >> Makes me want to weep.

[1:07:30] >> Yeah.

[1:07:30] >> Yeah.

[1:07:31] >> Yeah.

[1:07:32] >> I was thinking about that, you know.

[1:07:33] Yeah, go ahead.

[1:07:34] >> From a different perspective as an

[1:07:36] immigrant and also I grew up with a

[1:07:39] family of 12.

[1:07:41] And what I hear the expert been saying

[1:07:44] from the start it is sleep in community.

[1:07:47] So, I grew up and I raised most of my

[1:07:49] nieces and nephew because I was the

[1:07:51] youngest of 12. And what I learned from

[1:07:53] my mom is when my sisters would give

[1:07:56] birth

[1:07:57] the first time after they come from the

[1:07:59] hospital

[1:08:00] the baby's only given to my sisters when

[1:08:03] they need to breastfeed.

[1:08:05] After that, we take turn at the sisters

[1:08:08] to make sure the baby's is taking care

[1:08:10] of and the mom sleeps.

[1:08:12] Sleep is very, very, very important. And

[1:08:15] I think here in the United States,

[1:08:17] coming from Senegal

[1:08:18] I see how much we work and how much we

[1:08:22] depending in the society to pay the

[1:08:24] bills that we forget about ourselves. We

[1:08:27] work year round. Back home, you have a

[1:08:30] year off, paid year off. And we are an

[1:08:35] underdeveloped my country and we get

[1:08:37] paid a year off when you give birth. And

[1:08:40] here in the United States, you can't

[1:08:41] even have 3 months after you give birth.

[1:08:44] So, that is unacceptable.

[1:08:45] >> Well, you're exactly what I was talking

[1:08:46] about, the village of women.

[1:08:48] >> It's the village. So, I think if we

[1:08:49] change our mindset, we will be living in

[1:08:52] a better world.

[1:08:53] >> Yeah, thank you for that.

[1:08:55] Thank you.

[1:08:59] All of our guests today have husbands

[1:09:01] who are supportive, but if you're trying

[1:09:02] to do this by yourself

[1:09:03] >> Yeah, and my mind is the same as Lindsay

[1:09:06] >> this by yourself and you're hearing

[1:09:07] hearing you're seeing the man outside?

[1:09:09] >> It's I mean Carol Coronado is this she's

[1:09:12] a woman serving three consecutive life

[1:09:14] sentences in California. The facts are

[1:09:16] so similar to Lindsay's Lindsay

[1:09:18] Clancey's case except that there was no

[1:09:20] money and no ability to acknowledge what

[1:09:23] was going on and if you ever want to

[1:09:26] like just experience sheer horror at the

[1:09:28] trial they played the voice messages she

[1:09:31] was leaving her mom screaming mommy

[1:09:33] mommy come help come help. Uh it if

[1:09:37] there was just no help to be had and and

[1:09:39] what we do is first-degree murder

[1:09:42] prosecutions and an insanity test that

[1:09:45] doesn't fit postpartum psychosis. Did

[1:09:47] she know it was wrong? She called her

[1:09:49] mom. She said mommy come help so she

[1:09:51] knew it was wrong. So she's guilty.

[1:09:53] >> We want to invite other points of view

[1:09:55] on this. Nicole Russell is an opinion

[1:09:58] columnist for USA Today and she recently

[1:10:01] wrote an op-ed titled Lindsay Clancey

[1:10:04] isn't a motherhood martyr, she's a

[1:10:06] killer. She joins us from her home in

[1:10:09] Texas. Nicole, you've been listening to

[1:10:11] us. What's been your reaction to this

[1:10:13] whole case?

[1:10:14] >> Thank you for having me Oprah.

[1:10:16] Um I think this has been an incredible

[1:10:18] conversation. Uh I'm really glad to hear

[1:10:21] all these points of view especially for

[1:10:23] the women um who shared their stories.

[1:10:26] Uh I am a mom of four. I at one point

[1:10:29] had four kids under the age of six and

[1:10:32] um

[1:10:33] I do remember the the sleepless nights

[1:10:36] and the exhaustion um

[1:10:39] but I I do see an online reaction that

[1:10:43] seems very extreme.

[1:10:45] I the women who are cheering her on

[1:10:48] outside the courthouse and the the sort

[1:10:51] of Tik Tok moms as as was mentioned

[1:10:54] um it seems like we've gone online at

[1:10:57] least, maybe not in this conversation,

[1:11:00] from compassion and empathy

[1:11:03] to

[1:11:04] kind of heralding her as as a hero.

[1:11:07] And I think it's important to remind

[1:11:09] people that we can acknowledge and we

[1:11:12] should acknowledge all the struggles of

[1:11:15] postpartum mental health

[1:11:17] without offering

[1:11:19] kind of this toxic empathy that excuses

[1:11:22] the the murders of the of the three

[1:11:25] innocent children. Other than what you

[1:11:27] mentioned at the outset, there hasn't

[1:11:29] really been, you know, a topic of even

[1:11:31] this conversation. Sort of what what

[1:11:35] what will demand justice for those kids.

[1:11:38] >> And what does justice for the kids look

[1:11:40] like to you, Nicole? What do you think?

[1:11:42] >> I've been wrestling with that,

[1:11:43] especially as I watched, you know, the

[1:11:45] decision Friday of a mistrial.

[1:11:48] I think it is clear that she needs help.

[1:11:51] It seems like she did get a good amount

[1:11:54] of help, although

[1:11:56] and I wasn't in the courtroom. I didn't

[1:11:58] see every single testimony. But I do

[1:12:01] think she needs to be held accountable

[1:12:03] for what happened to her children.

[1:12:06] >> Are you saying she should be punished

[1:12:07] for it?

[1:12:07] >> I do think so. I think our justice

[1:12:09] system and the lives of the three

[1:12:12] innocent children demand that.

[1:12:14] Especially now in light of the fact that

[1:12:16] there will have to be a new trial and

[1:12:18] her ex-husband will have to endure the

[1:12:21] same thing all over again. He too has

[1:12:23] lost his children. And I just feel like,

[1:12:26] especially online, again, not in this

[1:12:28] conversation that we're having, but

[1:12:31] online especially, I'm just seeing

[1:12:33] you know, kind of this movement of

[1:12:35] toxicity

[1:12:36] of of making Lindsay Clancy sort of a

[1:12:39] poster child. And I don't think she's

[1:12:42] the right poster child for this

[1:12:44] conversation because her children are

[1:12:46] still dead.

[1:12:48] >> Is she a poster child for

[1:12:50] and you're just using your term. but you

[1:12:53] know, I started this conversation

[1:12:56] with the idea and intention of

[1:12:59] sharing with the audience how do we use

[1:13:03] this moment

[1:13:05] to move ourselves forward? I mean, so is

[1:13:08] she a poster child for as I was sharing

[1:13:11] and Michelle was saying she's been

[1:13:13] around long enough to talk having talked

[1:13:15] to enough mothers over the years who

[1:13:17] have killed their children and the court

[1:13:21] system,

[1:13:23] uh, society just said, "Oh, these are

[1:13:24] evil women." The fact that we are

[1:13:26] actually divided in this moment with

[1:13:29] other women saying, "That was my story."

[1:13:31] or "That could have been my story." says

[1:13:34] to me that perhaps this this is a time

[1:13:37] to use this for the medical profession,

[1:13:40] for the legal profession to look at the

[1:13:42] laws, to look at what insanity laws

[1:13:46] how they're defined, uh, particularly

[1:13:48] for women who,

[1:13:50] uh, have killed their children. Or and

[1:13:53] men, but also

[1:13:55] to look at ourselves as a society. How

[1:13:58] do we use this moment? How do we use

[1:14:01] Kora and Dawson and Callan's lives to

[1:14:04] move ourselves forward? Have you thought

[1:14:05] about that, Nicole?

[1:14:07] >> Absolutely. I think you're having the

[1:14:08] right conversation because you are

[1:14:10] asking those questions. How can we look

[1:14:13] at what happened if Lindsey is a sign of

[1:14:16] a system gone wrong or postpartum mental

[1:14:19] health struggles that we need to talk

[1:14:20] about. I think that's one thing. That is

[1:14:23] the conversation you're having.

[1:14:24] >> problem is you that the women in the

[1:14:26] pink shirts and the you making her a

[1:14:28] martyr you as you said.

[1:14:29] >> Yeah, my specific takes at USA Today as

[1:14:32] an opinion columnist were simply that

[1:14:34] what I was seeing online this sort of

[1:14:37] Tik Tok fan base of women holding their

[1:14:40] babies and saying, "Same Lindsey." I'm

[1:14:43] wondering what does that mean? Do they

[1:14:45] mean they're struggling with mental

[1:14:47] health? Do they mean they're in the

[1:14:49] middle of postpartum psychosis? If so,

[1:14:51] they should log off

[1:14:53] and they should get help.

[1:14:55] Okay, but they shouldn't be just posting

[1:14:57] same Lindsay holding their newborn for

[1:15:00] clicks

[1:15:02] if they're really struggling. They need

[1:15:04] to turn inward, go like you said, go to

[1:15:07] your family, go to your medical

[1:15:08] professionals. But I'm kind of it kind

[1:15:10] of looks like I'm seeing

[1:15:12] again, especially in online fan base,

[1:15:15] that's gone way too far. And I don't

[1:15:17] think there's any amount of online

[1:15:19] sympathy for the hardships of motherhood

[1:15:22] that should overshadow the if horrific

[1:15:24] actions that stole the lives of those

[1:15:26] children.

[1:15:27] >> Well, thank you. Thank you, Nicole. Your

[1:15:29] opinion got my attention. Thank you so

[1:15:31] much. Thanks for sharing. Caitlyn

[1:15:33] Flanagan is also an author columnist for

[1:15:35] the Free Press and she wrote an article

[1:15:36] that also caught my attention titled The

[1:15:38] Lindsay Clancy Fan Club, the same thing

[1:15:41] that you're saying.

[1:15:43] Uh and Caitlyn joins us from her home in

[1:15:45] uh California. Hi and welcome, Caitlyn.

[1:15:47] It's been a little over a week since you

[1:15:49] wrote your piece and the public reaction

[1:15:51] is getting even louder. What do you want

[1:15:54] to say?

[1:15:55] >> I think you said everything with that

[1:15:57] first word in the conversation when you

[1:15:58] used that word reconcile. It really

[1:16:01] struck me. How do we reconcile these two

[1:16:04] things?

[1:16:05] I, you know,

[1:16:08] the fact of these dead children, you

[1:16:10] know, we're often asked to look beyond

[1:16:13] them.

[1:16:14] Um Michelle who wrote that great piece

[1:16:16] in The New York Times, a very considered

[1:16:18] piece, and spoke with you just now, said

[1:16:20] it's so hard to look away from the dead

[1:16:22] babies.

[1:16:24] I think we need to look at them. We need

[1:16:26] to look at what happened. And these are

[1:16:28] three very small children.

[1:16:31] And

[1:16:33] they were killed in a very, very

[1:16:35] painful, terrifying way by the person in

[1:16:39] this world

[1:16:41] that they learned to depend on the most

[1:16:44] and who would always they trusted her,

[1:16:47] they loved her

[1:16:49] and that out of her mind face was the

[1:16:51] last they saw on this earth.

[1:16:53] And I think that it makes sense that

[1:16:59] a lot of people are have there's there's

[1:17:00] almost an unanswerable question morally

[1:17:03] here in terms of what should we do about

[1:17:06] this legally? What's the punishment for

[1:17:09] this?

[1:17:10] The criminally.

[1:17:11] But I think the fact is, you know, those

[1:17:14] little kids, you know, they had their

[1:17:16] things ready for their clothes

[1:17:19] everything ready for preschool the next

[1:17:21] day. People were their friends were

[1:17:22] waiting for them to show up. They were

[1:17:25] life in session. And that little

[1:17:27] 8-month-old baby, we can't look away

[1:17:29] from him.

[1:17:31] So, I'm not saying this in terms of oh,

[1:17:33] only a guilty verdict would be right.

[1:17:36] I think it's more in the sense of

[1:17:38] can we ever reconcile these two things?

[1:17:42] I don't know. I just don't know. I don't

[1:17:44] have an answer.

[1:17:45] >> You were you you in your article you

[1:17:46] wrote compassion for a woman who says

[1:17:48] she was driven by mental illness to

[1:17:50] commit the world's greatest form of evil

[1:17:53] has turned into something strange and

[1:17:55] almost exultant celebration of Lindsay

[1:17:58] Clancy. So, what do you think is behind

[1:18:00] the women rallying around Lindsay

[1:18:02] Clancy?

[1:18:03] >> Well, there's been a lot of

[1:18:06] misinformation that I I hear it still

[1:18:08] being echoed today that that, you know,

[1:18:11] she couldn't get the help and she kept

[1:18:13] trying to get the help. The

[1:18:14] perniciousness of this illness is that

[1:18:17] she got a ton of help. But I sat down

[1:18:20] yesterday and I read through the

[1:18:22] transcript and I read through the two

[1:18:23] complaints and the two lawsuits.

[1:18:26] And she didn't tell one professional

[1:18:29] that she had thoughts of harming her

[1:18:30] children. She was very guarded about

[1:18:33] that. She told her husband twice. She

[1:18:37] told her mother once, but she really

[1:18:40] guarded that information, which I

[1:18:42] presume is, you know, part of a

[1:18:44] psychotic

[1:18:46] response in sort of knowing that you're

[1:18:48] keeping two books of business in your

[1:18:50] mind.

[1:18:50] >> you've been listening to our

[1:18:52] conversation today, you hear that is

[1:18:54] pretty normal.

[1:18:55] I mean, Brooke didn't even tell her

[1:18:57] husband she saw the man outside the

[1:18:59] window and she was having those thoughts

[1:19:01] for months. So, are we going to judge

[1:19:04] her because she didn't tell or how she

[1:19:08] told?

[1:19:08] >> I'm not talking about judging her in any

[1:19:11] of of what I've had to say, you know,

[1:19:12] writing about her.

[1:19:14] Um, but I'm just saying all of the

[1:19:17] interventions that sound so wonderful

[1:19:19] because we're so eager to never have

[1:19:21] this happen again, we talk about more

[1:19:24] mental health services.

[1:19:26] That doesn't seem to really help. We

[1:19:27] talk about more family around. She had a

[1:19:29] ton of family. I think this is so deep

[1:19:33] and pernicious an illness.

[1:19:36] And I understand completely why in other

[1:19:38] eras it was understood to be a a kind of

[1:19:40] demonic possession for this short period

[1:19:43] of time. So, I'm not saying that

[1:19:46] you know, I've never thought she should

[1:19:47] be try be called a murderer. I don't,

[1:19:50] you know, I think every single mother,

[1:19:53] the minute you heard a glimmer of this

[1:19:54] case, every woman said, "Oh, I know what

[1:19:56] that is."

[1:19:57] And that's the darkness.

[1:19:59] And we all know about the darkness to

[1:20:01] whatever extent it came up.

[1:20:03] >> And And you think that's why the women

[1:20:05] are rallying around her. That's what

[1:20:07] that is.

[1:20:07] >> I think so.

[1:20:09] But as mothers, our other obligation, I

[1:20:11] think, and women, is to really care

[1:20:14] about children. And so, when I see women

[1:20:16] in these Lindsey supporting t-shirts,

[1:20:19] but not talking about those three

[1:20:21] children, I think, you know, we're just

[1:20:23] more polarized than ever. And about how

[1:20:27] do we reconcile it? I don't know if we

[1:20:29] ever can.

[1:20:30] >> Okay.

[1:20:31] >> You know, it's not by it's not by

[1:20:33] punishing these women very harshly.

[1:20:36] Um

[1:20:37] They weren't in their right mind.

[1:20:40] Thank you, Katie.

[1:20:41] >> like

[1:20:42] I can't say anything definitively cuz

[1:20:44] it's just the I keep thinking of your

[1:20:45] room how your

[1:20:47] expression. How do we reconcile?

[1:20:50] It's It's one of those human things that

[1:20:52] maybe only God understands. We can't

[1:20:55] reconcile it. We don't know what to do.

[1:20:59] And and I think having an awareness of

[1:21:01] this is

[1:21:02] >> showing itself to us so that we can

[1:21:03] figure out what to do?

[1:21:05] Don't you think that this is a moment

[1:21:07] for us to start thinking about what to

[1:21:09] do?

[1:21:10] So, reconcile

[1:21:12] perhaps is the wrong term. We can't, but

[1:21:15] how do we now move forward from this?

[1:21:19] How do we use this moment to

[1:21:23] elevate the way we think about it.

[1:21:27] Can we do that?

[1:21:28] >> I think there are a lot of us and I mean

[1:21:30] the side of this, actually, who can

[1:21:33] understand, oh, she wasn't in her right

[1:21:35] mind. She didn't um

[1:21:39] she didn't know what she was doing and I

[1:21:41] I think something obviously was driving

[1:21:43] her

[1:21:44] um the whole time. Something terrible

[1:21:47] was driving her.

[1:21:49] But I haven't heard anybody, you know,

[1:21:51] it's so rare. It gets our attention. It

[1:21:54] must be a very human response to police

[1:21:56] ourselves.

[1:21:57] Um I think that's why the angry side is

[1:22:00] so angry. I think there's something deep

[1:22:02] in us that says nobody should kill a

[1:22:04] baby.

[1:22:06] Um

[1:22:08] and we're just all here and there's been

[1:22:10] this kind of horrible spectacle made of

[1:22:12] it and it's almost like it's a true

[1:22:14] crime show and people are getting on

[1:22:16] TikTok and getting excited and it's just

[1:22:20] it's grotesque.

[1:22:21] >> Yeah. You're Yes. All right, Dr.

[1:22:24] Berndorf, did you want to say something

[1:22:25] to that?

[1:22:26] >> Many things.

[1:22:27] >> Yeah.

[1:22:27] >> Um

[1:22:28] if as I understand it and I didn't

[1:22:30] evaluate Lindsay, but based on what

[1:22:32] you're saying Meg, based on what we know

[1:22:34] about her history, her love of her kids,

[1:22:37] her job as a labor and delivery nurse,

[1:22:40] she would never have killed her kids if

[1:22:45] she were not severely ill.

[1:22:49] I understand that we cannot look past

[1:22:51] and we should never

[1:22:54] It is horrific. It's unspeakable. It

[1:22:56] makes me cry to think about those kids,

[1:23:00] but to punish her for something

[1:23:03] that that's illness,

[1:23:06] we are not taking women's mental health

[1:23:09] seriously. We can't bear to think that

[1:23:13] moms can struggle in this way and until

[1:23:17] we believe that, until we understand

[1:23:20] that women's mental health around

[1:23:22] reproductive times of change, pregnancy,

[1:23:25] childbirth, and the postpartum can cause

[1:23:28] severe and potentially lethal illness,

[1:23:31] we are nowhere.

[1:23:33] >> Yes.

[1:23:33] >> All right.

[1:23:34] >> Yes.

[1:23:37] >> Each of you want to say something. Yes.

[1:23:38] >> I was going to say postpartum psychosis,

[1:23:40] it's a medical emergency and a medical

[1:23:43] emergency requires treatment, not shame.

[1:23:46] And the only way that we can move

[1:23:48] forward is to have amazing interactive

[1:23:50] conversations like this, reduce the

[1:23:52] stigma, acknowledge that it is hard for

[1:23:54] mothers to speak up, and there's guilt

[1:23:57] and shame, and maybe in fact they're

[1:23:59] experience hearing a voice that's

[1:24:00] telling them not to say anything because

[1:24:02] it is such a spectrum.

[1:24:04] >> And I just want to say that I the one

[1:24:06] message I would like to share is I want

[1:24:08] to galvanize everyone here. I don't want

[1:24:10] everyone to feel paralyzed because in

[1:24:12] fact there's a lot that we can do with

[1:24:14] postpartum psychosis and early

[1:24:16] detection. Unfortunately, we can't

[1:24:18] change the past and we can't take back

[1:24:20] the lives of those who were lost in the

[1:24:22] tragedies, but what we can do is we can

[1:24:25] recognize early signs and symptoms of

[1:24:27] postpartum psychosis in the next mother

[1:24:29] and overall reduce that as we talk about

[1:24:32] it more, as we have more conversations.

[1:24:34] So, I think early detection, this the

[1:24:37] pink flags before it progresses to red

[1:24:39] flags, the three T's for for postpartum

[1:24:42] psychosis, temporary, treatable, timely.

[1:24:45] It's very timely. If we get moms help

[1:24:47] immediately, we can save lives. I think

[1:24:49] those are major things.

[1:24:50] >> So, you know, there's a lot we we can

[1:24:51] do. Post and parental leave in the

[1:24:52] postpartum period. And I have to say of

[1:24:54] hundreds and hundreds of women I have

[1:24:56] treated over the years and dads, too,

[1:24:59] there are two things they always ask me.

[1:25:01] One is validation. Am I doing okay? Am I

[1:25:04] a good enough mom? From the mom who's in

[1:25:06] the C-suite that I treat to the mom

[1:25:08] who's in state legislature to the mom

[1:25:10] who's incarcerated and a single mom.

[1:25:12] They ask that, but secondly, Dr. Hader,

[1:25:14] can you help me sleep? And I wish I

[1:25:16] could sign a send a prescription for a

[1:25:18] newborn care specialist to help them

[1:25:20] sleep.

[1:25:20] >> But unfortunately, we can. And you know,

[1:25:22] economically, we need to talk about

[1:25:24] that. And society as a whole, we need to

[1:25:27] move forward and we have to talk about

[1:25:29] early detection, the pink flags, and

[1:25:32] empowering the village. Family, husband,

[1:25:34] spouses, grandmothers, sisters,

[1:25:37] neighbors, the countless number of

[1:25:38] people connected to just one one mom cuz

[1:25:40] it it is in fact countless.

[1:25:42] >> Empowering the village. We are the

[1:25:44] village. Yes, doctor.

[1:25:46] >> And what I was just going to add finally

[1:25:48] is when you see your obstetrician,

[1:25:50] you're thinking about pregnancy, start

[1:25:52] to have these conversations. It is not

[1:25:54] shameful to talk about your risk

[1:25:57] factors, which could be depression,

[1:25:59] bipolar disorder, not having a

[1:26:01] supportive spouse, limited resources.

[1:26:04] All of these are little risk factors

[1:26:05] that when you tick away at them and add

[1:26:08] a baby, sleep deprivation on top, can

[1:26:11] really have you tip over. And the other

[1:26:13] thing that I would just be remiss

[1:26:15] to not say is

[1:26:17] I I hope this never happens again. We

[1:26:20] know statistically it really

[1:26:22] will.

[1:26:23] >> It will.

[1:26:24] >> I want us to have the same passion for

[1:26:27] people who don't look like Lindsey.

[1:26:29] Who don't have her same access.

[1:26:32] >> Yeah.

[1:26:34] Yeah.

[1:26:36] Yeah.

[1:26:38] >> Who Who don't have her same access, and

[1:26:41] education, her melanin, her privilege.

[1:26:45] There are women of color sitting around

[1:26:48] this country in prisons for the same

[1:26:50] thing that we've never heard of.

[1:26:52] And I just want to remind us to have the

[1:26:54] pink shirts and the energy for them as

[1:26:57] well.

[1:26:58] >> Mhm.

[1:26:59] Lindsey.

[1:27:01] Lindsey.

[1:27:05] Michelle, what changes would you like to

[1:27:07] see uh in terms of in terms of uh how

[1:27:11] cases are tried and sentenced?

[1:27:13] >> So, I I think the British model is um

[1:27:17] an imperfect one, but certainly doesn't

[1:27:19] take all of the money and the hoopla

[1:27:21] that we've invested in the Clancy

[1:27:24] prosecution and perhaps re-prosecution.

[1:27:27] But, the short-term easy fix is to allow

[1:27:29] judges to have discretion again at

[1:27:31] sentencing. So, that if you have a

[1:27:33] district attorney who

[1:27:36] like the district attorney in Duxbury is

[1:27:37] like, I need to prosecute in order to

[1:27:39] vindicate the lives of these children,

[1:27:42] then at least the judge could say what

[1:27:44] they won't be able to say here, which is

[1:27:47] this just doesn't seem like a life in

[1:27:50] prison punishment is just, and to allow

[1:27:54] that judge to deviate from the required

[1:27:57] sentence for first-degree murder, and to

[1:27:59] make a sentence that seems perhaps a bit

[1:28:01] more merciful.

[1:28:03] >> I thank you all so much. We'll have to

[1:28:05] end it here. Thank you to all of my

[1:28:08] guests. Thank you for having the courage

[1:28:10] to Just up. Thank you audience. Before

[1:28:12] you we all leave here today. I want to

[1:28:15] again just speak their names of the

[1:28:18] beautiful children.

[1:28:20] Cora

[1:28:21] Dawson

[1:28:24] and Callan.

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Oprah Winfrey
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Postpartum-psychosisMaternal-mental-healthPostpartum-depressionPerinatal-psychiatryMental-health-emergency

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Questions fréquemment posées

Postpartum psychosis is a break with reality involving hallucinations, delusions, and loss of insight—mothers may hear commanding voices or believe impossible things about their baby. Postpartum depression develops gradually and involves persistent sadness or hopelessness without loss of contact with reality. Psychosis is rare (1-2 per 1,000 births) but a medical emergency; depression is more common and typically develops over weeks rather than days.
Pink flags include severe insomnia despite opportunity to sleep, racing thoughts or rapid speech, paranoia, obsessive thoughts about harm, loss of appetite, confusion, and any statements suggesting loss of insight. If a new mother says something indicating her reality is fragmenting or that she cannot trust herself alone with her baby, seek immediate psychiatric evaluation.
Yes, completely. Postpartum psychosis responds to immediate intervention including hospitalization, antipsychotic medication, mood stabilizers, and specialized psychiatric care. Unlike many psychiatric conditions, it often resolves entirely within days or weeks of treatment. Women who receive proper care recover fully.
The postpartum period involves the most dramatic hormonal shifts a human body experiences. Estrogen and progesterone plummet within hours of delivery, affecting neurotransmitter systems that regulate mood and reality-testing. Combined with severe sleep deprivation, this neurochemical stress can trigger psychosis in genetically vulnerable individuals.
Tell a healthcare provider immediately and seek emergency psychiatric evaluation. This is a medical emergency comparable to sepsis or a heart attack. Do not wait or assume it will pass. If there is any concern about safety, call emergency services or go to an emergency room.
Postpartum psychosis occurs in approximately 1 to 2 per 1,000 births, making it rare. This rarity means many healthcare providers, family members, and mothers themselves do not recognize it when it occurs, which is why awareness and education are critical.

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