Transcript
[0:03] [Music]
[0:16] [Applause]
[0:21] That's a plush chair.
[0:23] It is. Oh, wow. Yeah, you do. You go
[0:25] right all the way back.
[0:29] I have a cord. You have the cordless.
[0:31] Um
[0:32] Oh, that's good because I'll be singing
[0:33] and dancing. Um uh I have a one thank
[0:37] you that I have to Is Lily here who
[0:39] makes Borched?
[0:41] I would.
[0:42] It was so good.
[0:44] Thank you so much. Thank you to Lily for
[0:46] the B. She fed me last night normal
[0:48] people borched, which is she had two
[0:50] kinds. One vegetarian and one called
[0:51] normal people. I had the normal people
[0:54] one.
[0:55] Liz was normal other person.
[0:57] Really important.
[0:58] But thank you. That was amazing. I had
[0:59] to personally thank you for that. Um all
[1:02] right. Hi.
[1:03] Hi. So, here we are in Hume Fog. One of
[1:06] my very favorite places to be. I love
[1:08] this school and I love this auditorium.
[1:10] Um, and I love you.
[1:13] I love you, Ann.
[1:14] Um, we we have been friends for a really
[1:16] long time. And this is how writer
[1:19] friends get to see one another. They
[1:21] agreed to interview one another on stage
[1:24] and and then we get to talk.
[1:26] It's the only way we've ever seen each
[1:27] other.
[1:28] It's it's literally the only I think it
[1:30] is. I I think there was once but I think
[1:33] certainly three or four times we've
[1:35] managed to arrange this so that we can
[1:36] spend some time together.
[1:37] Yeah, it's crazy.
[1:38] Can I want to start out I actually I
[1:41] have questions that I wrote and I read
[1:43] them over and they're they're great.
[1:44] They're really good questions. Um
[1:47] Ann, you wrote them. Of course they're
[1:49] great. I know I'm brilliant
[1:51] award-winning questions.
[1:53] But I want to tell a story from our day
[1:56] today because it was particularly
[1:58] fantastic. Liz came in last night and we
[2:02] had a whole day together today with our
[2:04] friend Jane Hamilton who is also here
[2:06] and which was even more amazing and we
[2:10] went to UL to go shopping. I only go I
[2:13] went to the Parthonon and U two places I
[2:15] only go when I have out of town guests
[2:18] and Liz found a pair of shoes. They are
[2:22] not those shoes. They were equally
[2:25] amazing Christian Dior flats that were
[2:28] about 10% of what they had once cost.
[2:32] So, they were so beautiful I was licking
[2:33] them in the store. Um, and the only
[2:36] problem with these unspeakably beautiful
[2:40] Christian Dior shoes is that they didn't
[2:42] fit her. And uh,
[2:45] one one of them did
[2:46] one shoe fit fine
[2:49] and the other one caused her exceeding
[2:51] pain. And uh we were in UAL as one is
[2:54] for quite a long time and she was
[2:57] wearing them the whole time and one shoe
[2:59] she kept saying it felt so good and the
[3:01] other one hurt just so much.
[3:03] And I said well of course you wouldn't
[3:05] buy them. Only an idiot would buy shoes
[3:08] that hurt that much. And you said
[3:12] I said of course I'm going to buy them.
[3:13] And you said you're in denial about
[3:15] these shoes. They don't fit you. I said
[3:17] first of all only one needs to fit for
[3:19] the shoes to fit. Secondly, did you see
[3:22] the price? And thirdly, I'm not in
[3:24] denial. They're perfect for me. I'm
[3:26] going to marry them. We're going to have
[3:28] children and they're going to stop
[3:29] drinking.
[3:33] We're going to be so happy together.
[3:36] Stop blocking my happiness that's
[3:38] waiting for me with these shoes.
[3:41] I really had I all day long I thought
[3:44] this is what it means to be a woman to,
[3:47] you know, to think the it's not working
[3:49] now.
[3:50] No, no, no. It's going to be fine. It's
[3:51] going to be fine.
[3:52] We're going to work it out.
[3:54] We're meant to be together and we'll
[3:57] work it out after I buy them and after
[3:59] we get married, we'll fix everything.
[4:04] So, you wrote Eat, Pray, Love. Did you
[4:08] ever read it?
[4:09] Oh, do you know what? I just read it. I
[4:11] just read it um because it's the 10 year
[4:14] anniversary. Can you believe that? In a
[4:15] decade. Um in January.
[4:18] Serious. Yeah. And so Riverhead is
[4:22] putting out a 10-y year anniversary
[4:24] edition of E Pray Love and they asked me
[4:25] to write the introduction. I thought I
[4:27] should probably I should probably read
[4:29] it again. Um and do you know I first of
[4:33] all I liked it. It's a good book.
[4:35] It's a good book.
[4:36] Um and
[4:38] although I haven't read it in 10 years,
[4:39] the thing that struck struck me about
[4:41] it, there were a few things that struck
[4:42] me. one, how it what an incredibly lucky
[4:47] thing to have been able to do, to have
[4:49] spent a year alone traveling. What an
[4:51] amazing thing to have been able to do.
[4:53] As I was reading along, I was like,
[4:54] "That chick is so [ __ ] lucky." Oh,
[4:57] sorry. I know we're in school, but I was
[4:59] like and I got suddenly it honestly for
[5:02] the first time it sunk into me the
[5:04] criticism of people of entitlement and I
[5:07] was like I agree that was a very
[5:09] fortunate human being who got to do
[5:11] that. Um, the other thing that I had
[5:13] forgotten was how desperately sad I was
[5:15] at the beginning of that story. Um,
[5:16] because it ended so well
[5:19] that I had sort of erased the deep deep
[5:22] deep sadness from and 10 years of
[5:24] happiness. We'll do that.
[5:25] We'll do that. We'll erase that deep
[5:27] sadness. Thi this is so interesting to
[5:29] me because I've never read one of my
[5:31] books and I'm wondering, have you read
[5:34] your other books? And by which I mean
[5:37] you read them 30 times as you're
[5:40] finishing and editing copy editing and
[5:42] but when a book gets to the point where
[5:43] I can't change something I never read it
[5:46] again.
[5:46] Right.
[5:47] So have you read
[5:47] after the first GS you never read it
[5:49] again?
[5:49] No. No never.
[5:50] I don't think I ever have either. I
[5:51] think E Pray Love is probably the first
[5:53] book I sat down and and I thought I
[5:54] would just skim it but then I I got sort
[5:56] of interested in I wanted to see what
[5:59] happened.
[5:59] No, I can really see that. That's that's
[6:02] fantastic.
[6:02] Is she going to make out with Javanni or
[6:04] not? I wanted to know. Um, but I have to
[6:07] say and I am a Liz Gilbert completist.
[6:10] I've read and really truly loved all of
[6:12] your books and one of the books of yours
[6:14] that I think about the most is Pilgrims,
[6:16] which is your first book.
[6:17] You always say that. That's love that
[6:19] book. That is a genius book. I think
[6:21] that is
[6:23] I will go so far as to say it is up
[6:25] there with nine stories for me in terms
[6:27] of being a perfect and well-balanced
[6:30] collection. And I so often think of a
[6:32] story in that book as if it was a story
[6:35] someone had told me.
[6:36] But have you ever read it?
[6:39] No, I've never read it. Um, what year
[6:41] did you publish it?
[6:44] 1997.
[6:47] 1996 or seven, I think. Um, you should
[6:50] ask them to have a 20-y year anniversary
[6:52] edition of that book because that would
[6:54] be astonishing to bring that back into
[6:56] the bright light of the
[6:58] public is clamoring for it. Clamor,
[7:00] clamor, clamor
[7:01] because, you know, if we did a 20-y year
[7:04] anniversary, we could sell another
[7:06] thousand copies of it,
[7:08] which should be amazing. Um, would
[7:11] double our lifetime sales of Pilgrims.
[7:14] Um,
[7:15] you know, I think that people might look
[7:17] at it differently now. Maybe, maybe it
[7:19] could, it could very well be.
[7:21] Tell just go ahead so I can ask you
[7:23] these questions. Okay. Give us an
[7:25] overview because you guys got the book
[7:28] to come in here. So, I'm assuming a lot
[7:30] of you haven't read the book yet. I'm
[7:31] sure some of you have, but just explain
[7:34] briefly what Big Magic is all about.
[7:36] Okay. So, Big Magic is a book that I've
[7:38] been thinking about writing for 12
[7:39] years. And when I say thinking about
[7:41] writing, I mean every single day
[7:42] thinking about a book that I wanted to
[7:44] write about creativity. Um, I've been
[7:46] living by the principles of that book my
[7:49] entire life. Um, so it really is sort of
[7:51] my central manifesto about creativity,
[7:54] which I would say is a a combination of
[7:57] extreme magical thinking and tremendous
[8:01] Yankee pragmatism. Um, so it's fairy
[8:03] dust and it's garden soil. Um, sort of
[8:06] at this there's nothing in the middle.
[8:09] It's all either way up here or or way
[8:11] down there. And I think the reason it
[8:13] took me this long to write it is because
[8:15] I feel like I I must have felt that I
[8:18] needed to have a few more books under my
[8:20] belt before I believed I had the
[8:22] legitimacy and the chops to sit down and
[8:25] say here's a way that you should do
[8:26] creativity. I think I must have needed
[8:27] to feel I had to prove something more to
[8:29] myself. So I wrote three books in the
[8:31] time that I was thinking about writing
[8:32] this book. And the other reason I didn't
[8:34] write it was because I couldn't figure
[8:35] out how to how to write it. I wasn't
[8:36] sure if it should be a very heavily
[8:39] researched academic treaties. Most of my
[8:41] books are very heavily researched. And
[8:43] so I spent years collecting hundreds of
[8:47] books about every aspect of creativity,
[8:49] the neurobiology of creativity and the
[8:51] psychology of creativity and the history
[8:52] of creativity and gender and creativity
[8:54] and creativity and suicide and
[8:56] creativity and alcoholism and creativity
[8:58] and culture. And I looked at that whole
[9:00] shelf of books one day and thought, if I
[9:01] have to read even one of these books,
[9:03] I'm going to kill myself. I can't even I
[9:06] don't care. Um, and I'm proud to say
[9:09] there is not a single fact in Big Magic.
[9:11] Um, it is a factfree book. Um,
[9:16] so I think you can either say it's
[9:19] completely unressearched or you can say
[9:20] the research has been the 25 years I've
[9:22] been living by the principles that I put
[9:24] forth in this book. Um, and then I
[9:26] finally, you know what it was is
[9:27] Facebook. It was three, four, how many
[9:30] people here do I know from my Facebook
[9:31] page?
[9:34] Sweeties. Um, I love us on that page. I
[9:38] do. And and it's a really big part of my
[9:41] life and my day sort of talking on that
[9:43] page with with all of you. And and you
[9:45] may some of you may remember that two
[9:47] years ago I put a notice up and I said,
[9:48] I'm about to start writing this book on
[9:50] creativity. Um, if you are not living a
[9:53] out any sort of creativity in your life
[9:55] right now, tell me why you aren't. Let
[9:57] me hear all the problems, all the
[9:58] obstacles so that I can discuss them
[10:00] all. And then many of you wrote very
[10:02] long like legal lists very intricately
[10:06] of all the obstacles and all the
[10:07] problems and all the details. And I read
[10:10] every single one of those comments very
[10:11] carefully. And honest to God, all I saw
[10:14] in Invisible Ink through all the reasons
[10:16] and the obstacles was fear. Just a huge
[10:19] amount of fear. And so that became the
[10:21] central topic of the book. Um, let's
[10:23] talk about creativity and fear and how
[10:25] to get around it and through it and over
[10:27] it and under it in order to be able to
[10:29] bring forth the treasures that are
[10:31] hidden within you that I can only assume
[10:32] are. So, okay. Uh, one thing that you
[10:35] just said, you said this is how you
[10:37] should,
[10:38] you know, I'm I wrote this book so I can
[10:40] tell you this is how you should
[10:42] live a creative life. Do you mean that?
[10:44] I do.
[10:45] Not this is how you can or this is one
[10:47] option.
[10:48] I talk a lot of smack in there about
[10:49] how, hey, if it's not for you, don't
[10:51] worry. But I actually mean you should do
[10:53] this this way.
[10:54] Um I really do.
[10:55] I know. I And I respect that.
[10:56] I really do. And that's why I'm not
[10:58] afraid to call it a self-help book
[10:59] because I am. It's the first time where
[11:01] I feel like I'm putting myself out there
[11:03] in a way saying I'm going to speak as an
[11:05] expert about this because people often
[11:08] come to me with questions that are so
[11:09] above my pay grade um that I really
[11:12] can't. I mean, I want to help and be
[11:14] there, but I don't know how to advise
[11:16] people about problems with their
[11:17] children because I'm not a mother and I
[11:19] don't know how to talk about women in
[11:20] the workforce, in the corporate world,
[11:21] because I've never worked in the
[11:22] corporate world. And I there's a million
[11:25] things that people bring me that are
[11:26] really serious questions where I just
[11:28] think, I don't know, but I know you can
[11:29] get through it. Like, that's usually my
[11:31] answer. And but if you want to talk
[11:33] about creativity, that's a place where I
[11:35] feel very confident to say, okay, let me
[11:39] tell you what to do. And um and it's
[11:41] probably the only place I can't even
[11:43] even meditation spirituality people come
[11:45] to me with those questions and I'm like
[11:47] I have the sketchiest lamest meditation
[11:49] practice if I you know I'm not the
[11:52] person to ask go talk to pim showed
[11:54] about this. Um, but this subject I feel
[11:57] like this is what I do and I do it in a
[11:59] way that is very pleasurable and very
[12:03] generative and very enjoy. Like it's
[12:07] just full of joy and work at the same
[12:09] time. Um, so I thought, yeah, what if I
[12:12] just throw down and say this is how you
[12:15] guys have to do your creativity, all of
[12:17] you. I mean, you might as well say it
[12:19] because people either will or won't, you
[12:21] know. Um, but yeah, I kind of secretly
[12:24] wish people would do it this way. Not so
[12:26] secretly now that we've said it here in
[12:27] the auditorium.
[12:29] So, let me instill a little fear in the
[12:31] audience. Um, right at the beginning,
[12:33] you have a Jack Gilbert quote. Jack
[12:35] Gilbert being the poet who has no
[12:37] relation to Liz Gilbert, although they
[12:39] had
[12:40] spiritually
[12:40] they had spiritual overlap and they
[12:42] almost shared an office. So, the quote
[12:44] is, "Do you have the courage to bring
[12:46] forth the treasures that are hidden
[12:48] within you?"
[12:50] to which I would say that's a really
[12:53] great point of fear, right? Do you have
[12:55] the do you have the courage to go down?
[12:57] To me, when I read that quote, what I
[13:00] think is the reason if you're afraid,
[13:02] you're afraid to go down there to find
[13:04] out that in fact there are not really
[13:06] jewels there. There may be some
[13:08] rhinestones or little lumps of coal or
[13:11] something. But what if you spend your
[13:13] life feeling good about yourself because
[13:15] you feel like a really creative person,
[13:18] but if you had the courage to sit down
[13:20] and really do the hard work of chipping
[13:23] those jewels out and you find out not so
[13:26] great. Well, you know, I like
[13:28] rhinestones and lumps of coal. Truly,
[13:32] I'm really interested in them. And
[13:35] somebody said to me, I think it was an
[13:36] NPR interviewer said, "Aren't you afraid
[13:39] that your book is just going to
[13:40] encourage more talentless people to make
[13:42] more bad art?" Which is a very like
[13:46] harsh
[13:46] That is what I'm asking.
[13:48] That's what you're asking, but you're
[13:49] asking it in a in a nicer way.
[13:51] In a nicer way.
[13:51] You're asking it in a nicer way. And I
[13:53] will tell you as a populist which is
[13:55] what I am and as somebody who's
[13:58] interested in people people becoming
[14:02] people in the process of becoming people
[14:04] in the process of search people in the
[14:06] study of themselves people as my guru in
[14:09] India used to say becoming a scientist
[14:11] of their own experience right I think
[14:12] there's nothing more interesting you can
[14:14] do with your life than that so for me
[14:16] coming from that aspect of it my issue
[14:20] with the world is not that there's too
[14:22] much bad art in it. My issue with the
[14:24] world is that there are millions and
[14:25] millions and millions of people who
[14:27] aren't making anything at all because
[14:30] they've been told that they don't have
[14:32] anything to say or to share or to do or
[14:34] because they're afraid there's no point
[14:36] in it or because there's afraid that
[14:38] they're afraid that they can't they
[14:39] can't divorce the commercial aspect of
[14:41] it and so they think well I'm never
[14:43] going to make a living out so why in the
[14:44] world would I do this? What other
[14:45] purpose would you possibly have for
[14:47] making a thing that possibly nobody
[14:48] wants? You know, those are the issues
[14:50] that I'm much more interested in than I,
[14:52] you know, this is why I'm not a critic.
[14:53] This is why I'm not a teacher even
[14:55] because it's not a comfortable position
[14:58] for me to sit around saying this person
[15:00] is talented, this person isn't. You've
[15:02] got nothing. Skip it. You have something
[15:04] maybe you you know I I would never feel
[15:08] comfortable doing that. world has
[15:10] humbled me out of that because if I look
[15:12] back at 20 years ago and the people I I
[15:14] hung out with, there were people who I
[15:16] would have bet the farm on who I thought
[15:19] had everything. They had everything.
[15:22] They were shining with promise and they
[15:25] did [ __ ] nothing. They did nothing.
[15:28] And there were people who I dismissed
[15:30] and ignored and was arrogant and almost
[15:33] and probably very rude about who then
[15:36] blew my mind with something that they
[15:38] made that I could never have looked at
[15:40] them and seen was in there. I have a
[15:41] friend who like said, "Oh, I'm writing a
[15:44] novel." I was like, "Oh, so cute. He's
[15:46] wring." Um, you know, 20 years ago, I
[15:49] won't even say who it is. It's somebody
[15:50] who's a very now very renowned novelist.
[15:52] Um, and when he showed this book to me
[15:55] and all of our friends, we thought, did
[15:57] he go hiking and find a cabin and there
[15:59] was a dead body and he moved the body
[16:00] and underneath it there was a pi a
[16:02] manuscript.
[16:04] He couldn't have possibly. So, so having
[16:07] seen both really, we were like, where
[16:11] did he buy this?
[16:13] This is a person with no soul. This is a
[16:15] person with no imagination. Who who
[16:22] You can do it this way, but I want to
[16:24] know. Will you tell them if I I don't
[16:26] want to get it out there?
[16:27] No, I can't. I can't because I just And
[16:29] I love feminist deer, but he's
[16:30] tremendous. Tremendous. Um and and so
[16:34] having seen that
[16:36] I for Darren Strauss.
[16:39] The book was changing.
[16:41] Yeah. Okay.
[16:42] The book was changing. Yeah. Um and many
[16:44] wonderful books to come. And I I
[16:46] shouldn't say had no soul. He just
[16:47] didn't.
[16:49] That's going to go all over the fight.
[16:51] He's a friend of mine. But I
[16:53] can Yeah. Can we just have a pact? Can
[16:55] we just be stays here and say what's
[16:58] what happens in Vegas?
[16:59] So, what I'm saying is I the the
[17:02] question to me that is the least
[17:04] interesting in the world is the question
[17:06] of talent for two reasons. One is
[17:08] because it can never be objectively
[17:10] measured. We will have I have no idea
[17:11] how much writing talent I have. Um
[17:14] there's no way for me to know. All I
[17:15] know is that I've devoted myself to this
[17:18] as a craft from a very early age and
[17:20] I've put years and years and years into
[17:21] it. Um what I'm interested in is what
[17:25] are you going to do? What are you going
[17:27] to do? I don't know what's in you. I
[17:29] don't know what's in people. I can't
[17:31] look at people and decide that. You
[17:32] know, we sort of the interesting thing
[17:35] for me and the most interesting way that
[17:36] I can go through the world is to assume
[17:39] that everyone's got something
[17:40] fascinating in them. And it may not be a
[17:42] Pulitzer Prizewinning novel, but it's
[17:45] but I I think it's a much more
[17:46] interesting way to go through the world
[17:47] than being like, "No, no, no."
[17:50] Okay, but I'm not talking about you
[17:52] judging someone or me judging someone.
[17:54] I'm talking about self- judgment, and
[17:56] it's going to fit into this next
[17:58] question. when I was in Province Town uh
[18:03] 25 years ago and I went away for seven
[18:07] months and I wrote my first novel and I
[18:09] decided that for one time in my life I
[18:14] was going to do my best work. I was
[18:16] going to go to the wall and I wasn't
[18:20] going to write something and then say,
[18:22] well, you know, if it hadn't been for
[18:24] this guy or if it hadn't been for this
[18:26] job or if it hadn't been for, you know,
[18:28] whatever, it would have been better if
[18:30] I was going to see what I had. And and
[18:35] that's the judgment I'm talking about,
[18:36] not the judgment of the world, but when
[18:38] you look inside yourself and you see
[18:41] coal or you see rhinestones. If you make
[18:46] art, but you can always say to yourself
[18:48] or you don't make art and you'd say,
[18:50] "Well, if I had the time, if I had this,
[18:51] if I had that, it would have been so
[18:52] much better." You actually feel a lot
[18:54] better about yourself.
[18:56] Do you do you Well, there's the
[18:58] question. Because
[18:59] Because I disagree. Well, because it can
[19:01] be really painful to sit down and look
[19:05] at yourself and think, "Ah, that's not
[19:07] it's not there."
[19:08] Well, first of all, I don't know a
[19:09] single artist, myself included, who
[19:11] doesn't at times or at many times look
[19:14] in and see Cole, right? So, if that's
[19:17] the criteria by which you should stop
[19:18] working,
[19:19] no, not stop working. Not stop working.
[19:21] But I'm just saying it's
[19:23] it's painful.
[19:25] I have such a different view of this.
[19:26] It's remarkable. Like we are so on the
[19:29] different side of the stage of this
[19:30] because my view of it is so much more in
[19:32] line with the pain of not
[19:36] being a maker and the pain of being the
[19:40] sort of frustration and the
[19:44] I'm going to say the sort of flatlining
[19:45] of being a just being a witness, a
[19:48] bystander, consumer. To me that's much
[19:50] scarier. That's much scarier. Um and
[19:53] Bnee Brown, are we all down with Bnee
[19:55] Brown? Um, you know, Bnee Brown and I
[19:57] had a really interesting conversation
[19:59] about this on our podcast on the last
[20:00] podcast I did with her. Um, which was
[20:02] she was fabulous on this. And I said,
[20:04] "So, what does creativity mean to you?"
[20:05] This is a woman, if you don't know of
[20:06] her, who's a sociologist who studies
[20:08] vulnerability, shame, wholeheartedness,
[20:10] resilience. And one of the things that
[20:12] she discovered in her data is that
[20:14] creativity is actually like expressing
[20:16] creativity, whether you're good at it or
[20:18] bad at it, whether it's diamonds or
[20:20] coal, is essential to a wholehearted
[20:22] life. And she said she would have never
[20:25] realized that years ago. And she said,
[20:27] "If you had asked me five ten years ago,
[20:28] what do I think of creativity?" I would
[20:30] have said, "Oh, that's very cute. I
[20:32] don't do art. I've got a jo o."
[20:34] Oh. Um, which is, you know, just how she
[20:37] felt about it. She thought it was sort
[20:38] of that's not I have a real life, so I
[20:41] don't mess around with have fun making
[20:43] your puppets was basically what her
[20:45] opinion was. And she said the problem is
[20:47] that all of her research has shown that
[20:49] and the the line that she used that I
[20:51] love is unused creativity is not benign.
[20:56] That your creativity is a sort of life
[20:58] force within you that's part of your
[20:59] human inheritance that 50,000 years of
[21:02] human beings have participated in at
[21:03] some level or another. And it's part of
[21:05] something that needs to be it's an
[21:07] engine that needs to be going. And if
[21:08] you don't use it for something, it
[21:10] doesn't just idle in neutral. You know,
[21:13] it's it's as I say in here, having a
[21:14] creative mind, having a human mind is
[21:17] like owning a border collie for a pet.
[21:19] You have to give that thing a job to do
[21:21] or else it's going to find a job to do.
[21:22] And the job it finds, you won't like.
[21:24] And so what I want, all I want is to let
[21:27] people let their border collie run a
[21:29] little bit and then let's see what it
[21:30] is. Do you think that that's also true
[21:32] for compassion, generosity,
[21:36] intellectual stimulation,
[21:38] unused virtue is not benign?
[21:39] Yeah.
[21:40] Yes, I would say so. Unused love is not
[21:43] benign. Yeah.
[21:44] Um, you know, we are richly made and
[21:48] filled with remarkable
[21:51] mechanisms and software of of feeling
[21:54] and sensitivity and emotion. And I think
[21:55] they need they need some space. And if
[21:58] they don't get it, there's I mean my my
[22:01] lived experience. I don't have the data
[22:02] that Bnee has, but it matches my lived
[22:05] experience when I see lives of people
[22:08] sort of
[22:10] they they sort of take a gray pal um and
[22:13] there's something and then they can
[22:14] restimulate. I mean the my favorite
[22:15] story that I tell in the book is of my
[22:17] friend Susan who took up figure skating
[22:19] when she was in her 40s and you wrote
[22:20] about it. I love that story too.
[22:22] Yes.
[22:23] Go ahead, answer that question. So, my
[22:25] friend Susan was a very talented figure
[22:28] skater as a teenager. Uh, it was her
[22:30] life. It was her passion. It was her
[22:32] joy. And then she was informed one day,
[22:34] as very talented young people often are.
[22:36] Um,
[22:38] off the ice, you'll never be an
[22:39] Olympian. You're done. Bye. Pack up your
[22:41] skates. And she got off. I mean, what a
[22:43] system, first of all. So, here, young
[22:45] person who has devoted your entire life
[22:46] to this thing that you love more than
[22:48] anything else. We just realized and did
[22:50] the data that you're never going to win
[22:51] a gold medal. So, I guess you're done
[22:52] with this. Good. See you. Um, and 25
[22:55] years later, when she was in her 40s and
[22:58] feeling very drab and dull and sort of
[23:01] just uninspired, she did a big soul
[23:03] search and asked herself when the last
[23:05] time she had felt really alive, was
[23:08] really kind of in touch and invigorated
[23:10] and creative. And to her horror, she
[23:12] realized it hadn't been since she was 14
[23:14] or 15 years old and she was figure
[23:15] skating. So, she went and got some
[23:18] skates and found a rink and hired a
[23:20] coach. And three mornings a week before
[23:21] her demanding day job began, she would
[23:23] go and skate. And she didn't sell her
[23:26] house, didn't quit her job, didn't get
[23:27] divorced, didn't move to Toronto, and
[23:29] didn't win a world championship. She
[23:31] just gave herself back this thing that
[23:33] was the most efficient engine for her to
[23:35] feel a certain way that she couldn't
[23:37] seem to feel any other way. And what I
[23:40] don't tell in the story is everything
[23:42] else that opened up in her life after
[23:43] that. After that, then she was like,
[23:46] "This job sucks. I need a better job."
[23:50] Um, and so she got a better job, not in
[23:52] figure skating, just in the field that
[23:53] she was in in publishing.
[23:54] Susan in San Francisco.
[23:56] No, no, no. Um, this is an editor who I
[23:58] used to work with at GQ. She's like,
[24:00] "I'm tired of sitting in my pajamas
[24:02] eating cereal out of the box in front of
[24:03] the TV every night. I'm going to start
[24:05] dating." Um, she met her husband. She
[24:08] said, "I've lived in this apartment
[24:09] since the year I graduated from college.
[24:11] I'm a 45-year-old woman. I deserve a
[24:12] better place with some sun and I can
[24:14] afford it." All of this came from the
[24:17] figure skating, right? So, that's what
[24:19] I'm talking about about it doesn't have
[24:22] to be. And and look, she was the only
[24:24] middle-aged woman on the ice with a
[24:27] bunch of feathery nine-year-old girls
[24:28] flying around her. And she was like, "I
[24:31] don't care. I don't care. I just want to
[24:33] be here because I can't feel this way
[24:36] any other way. That's what I'm
[24:37] interested in."
[24:38] All right. But, but a big problem, if
[24:40] you read to the end of the index card,
[24:42] um,
[24:45] is that in writing,
[24:47] right? I'm always trying to tell people
[24:50] it is so
[24:52] beyond okay, beautiful, wonderful,
[24:54] important. You write because you love
[24:55] it. You don't need to publish. You don't
[24:57] need to make money. You write because
[24:59] you can't help but write. You love to
[25:01] write. It improves your life. But the
[25:03] desire to monetize the art. And I will
[25:06] only speak for writing, but I'm sure
[25:08] it's true all over the place
[25:11] completely squashes
[25:13] the art in so many cases with so many
[25:16] people. When they say, "I would like to
[25:19] do what you do," they're talking more
[25:21] about the living, the life,
[25:23] your career, not your I want your
[25:25] career, not your art,
[25:26] not your art. And what I love about the
[25:28] story of Susan is that is removed. I
[25:31] don't care how good you are. If you are
[25:33] 40 years old, you are not ever going to
[25:36] be an Olympian. Doesn't make any
[25:38] difference. Diana Niad has really thrown
[25:40] a curve in this whole thing for me. But
[25:43] you know, it's channel swimming for most
[25:46] of us is not going to be competitive at
[25:47] this point.
[25:49] How can we get that across to people?
[25:53] Well, what I always I mean, look, you
[25:55] can't take people's hope away from them
[25:57] and you can't take people's dreams away
[25:58] from them, nor I mean, I think I try to
[26:00] be as realistic as I possibly can be in
[26:02] this book and talk about, please don't
[26:04] please don't bank on, you know, please
[26:06] don't bank on this, please don't bank on
[26:08] that. Please don't go into debt to
[26:10] become an artist. That's the number one
[26:11] rule that I have whenever anybody asks
[26:13] me for creative advice. Um, first of
[26:15] all, please don't go into debt for a lot
[26:17] of things, but mostly, please do not go
[26:19] into debt to become an artist. it's not
[26:21] fair to you or to your art or to your
[26:23] creativity. Um, don't do that. There's
[26:25] no need to do that. Um, so I mean, we
[26:28] can speak as rationally as we can to
[26:29] people. The only thing I can do when I
[26:32] talk to people is to ask them, and here
[26:34] I'm going to go back up into sort of the
[26:36] magical thinking that's at the basis of
[26:38] so much of how I operate because it's
[26:40] what I have to tell myself is it's
[26:44] perfectly okay to have an ego. We all
[26:46] have one. The definition of your ego is
[26:48] it's a bottomless hole of desire. It can
[26:50] never be satisfied with anything. Your
[26:52] ego is the thing that will sell 20
[26:54] million records and wonder why it wasn't
[26:56] 30 million. Right? Um and if and that's
[27:00] it. It can't be it can be satisfied for
[27:02] moments, but it can't be eternally
[27:03] satisfied. No matter what your ego gets,
[27:05] there's going to be another level where
[27:06] it wants more. It wants five of them. It
[27:08] wants them in blue. It wants it tomorrow
[27:09] morning. You know, that's the definite.
[27:11] We all have this at some level in
[27:13] ourselves. So, I had a a letter on
[27:15] Facebook the other day from a young
[27:16] woman who said, "I don't think it's fair
[27:18] for anybody to tell me that I shouldn't
[27:20] want to be a successful actress. I'm
[27:22] going to acting school and I want to be
[27:24] a successful actress." And I said,
[27:25] "That's of course you want to be a
[27:26] successful actress. I wanted to be a
[27:28] successful writer. Um, when I was your
[27:30] age, I wanted to be published. If I
[27:31] didn't want to be published, I wouldn't
[27:32] have bothered try to get published. I
[27:34] would have just written in my bedroom
[27:35] and put it under my desk and been fine.
[27:37] But I wanted it to be seen. It's fine."
[27:40] But make sure you have, if not a, if
[27:43] you're not capable of having a stronger
[27:44] motive than that, make sure you at least
[27:47] have an additional one, make sure you
[27:49] have an additional one. And let that
[27:51] additional one be something that has
[27:53] more to do with your soul than your ego.
[27:56] Because you are also a soul and your
[27:58] soul wants a bunch of different stuff
[27:59] than your ego wants. Your soul wants
[28:01] wonder. It wants becoming. It wants
[28:02] unfolding. It wants process. It wants
[28:04] connection. It wants some sort of sense
[28:07] of meaning. Those are the things your
[28:08] soul wants. And I have this lecture with
[28:10] myself all the time so that when I get a
[28:13] bad review and I'm miffed about it and I
[28:15] feel like I've been misunderstood or
[28:16] worse understood
[28:18] um and revealed in a way that I don't
[28:20] want to be. I can see this difference
[28:22] where I can check in with my ego and my
[28:24] ego is wounded. It doesn't like it. I
[28:26] would like everybody to like everything
[28:28] I do. It hurts. I still don't like it
[28:31] after all these years. And I'll be like,
[28:33] "Ouch, I don't that didn't feel good. I
[28:35] didn't want that." And then I check in
[28:37] with my soul and say, 'How you doing?'
[28:39] And my soul's like, "We're fine. Can we
[28:42] play more? Can we make another thing? I
[28:43] just want to make another thing. Let's
[28:45] do it again. Let's do another one. Let's
[28:47] do it differently. Let's try this." And
[28:49] that's, you know, I can never totally
[28:51] circumvent my ego, but as long as I'm
[28:54] making sure to constantly check in with
[28:55] a richer and more interesting part of
[28:57] myself, then I feel like I'm all right.
[29:00] And that's the only thing I can ever
[29:02] tell people. And they will or will not
[29:03] hear it. They will or will not hear it.
[29:06] Um, but that's what I've got to offer.
[29:10] Um, something horrifying that happened
[29:14] to me four years ago on a stage in
[29:16] Australia,
[29:18] uh, doing a panel. The moderator asked
[29:21] me what I thought about my brand. Did I
[29:25] ever tell you this story?
[29:26] No.
[29:27] Um, what did I think about my brand? How
[29:29] did I cultivate and market my brand? It
[29:33] was a moment that changed my life in a
[29:35] terrible way because until then I never
[29:37] knew that I had a brand. I had no idea.
[29:40] Like I never knew that that word could
[29:42] be applied to me. I mean I guess I
[29:45] thought Taylor Swift has a brand but
[29:47] probably everybody under her were
[29:49] brandless.
[29:50] Um
[29:54] so you
[29:55] how did you can I ask you how you
[29:56] answered it?
[29:57] What did you do in that moment? I mean
[29:59] I mean I burst into tears and run off
[30:01] the stage. I I said, "I have I really I
[30:04] was like, I'm sorry. I'm going to have
[30:06] to go into therapy for years before I
[30:08] can answer this question. I don't know."
[30:10] It really shook me up. It really really
[30:12] shook me up. And it's sort of like a
[30:14] nasty thing that's been in my head
[30:16] because people will ask me to do things
[30:19] when I interviewed Shirley Mlan um uh at
[30:22] TAC a few months ago and I actually came
[30:26] off the stage thinking that probably
[30:28] wasn't good for my brand.
[30:33] And I hate having that thought, but your
[30:37] brand
[30:39] is
[30:40] enormous and um and in in I don't want
[30:46] to say it's in conflict with itself, but
[30:49] you are doing very different things. I
[30:53] understand how they're all connected,
[30:56] but you're a you're a brilliant fiction
[30:59] writer. you uh your novels, your short
[31:01] stories, you are you are tops and there
[31:06] are a lot of people who would say
[31:09] writing self-help even writing Eat Pray
[31:12] Love. I mean, as somebody who owns a
[31:14] bookstore, the people who don't like
[31:15] Eat, Pray, Love, when I would say, oh,
[31:17] you know, signature of all things, this
[31:19] is the book that you would love. And
[31:20] they would say, oh, no, no, I'm not
[31:21] going to read her. I don't like Eat,
[31:23] Pray, Love. I said, did you read Eat
[31:24] Pray Love? No, I didn't. Oh, no, I
[31:26] didn't eat. And I'm
[31:29] your brand takes you up. There are
[31:32] people who are going to read Signature
[31:33] of All Things because they loved E,
[31:35] Pray, Love. And your brand crashes you
[31:38] to the ground. And now on top of it,
[31:40] you've got this third thing which is an
[31:43] enormous social media presence, which is
[31:46] a different kind of brand. Go for it.
[31:50] Um, there's a question in there
[31:52] somewhere.
[31:53] I I hear you. I hear you. Um, and I'm
[31:56] having the time of my life. I'm having
[31:59] the time of my life. And the Um, thank
[32:03] you.
[32:05] Um,
[32:06] here's the thing about what happened
[32:08] with Eat Pray Love. A bunch of stuff
[32:10] happened because of E Pray Love. Um,
[32:13] I messed with my brand what I had of one
[32:17] by even writing that book because prior
[32:19] to that that's
[32:20] I mean I was not a well-known I was not
[32:22] a well-known writer but if I was known
[32:24] at all I was known for a very certain
[32:26] kind of thing. I was known as a woman
[32:28] who wrote very sympathetically about
[32:29] men.
[32:30] I wrote I mean my two of my first three
[32:32] books had the word men in the title
[32:33] which says a lot about my 20s first of
[32:35] all but um you know I was I was writing
[32:37] for GQ. I was writing for Spin. I
[32:39] And if you haven't read Last American
[32:41] Man,
[32:42] it's genius. I mean, honest to God, that
[32:44] is a genius book. Um, and I kind of blew
[32:48] that up. I knew that I was blowing that
[32:50] up to go and write a memoir about a
[32:52] woman's journey.
[32:53] I just knew that that was it. And I felt
[32:57] I had no choice. I just thought, well,
[33:00] sorry everybody. And this is literally
[33:02] what I was thinking as I was writing. I
[33:03] was like, sorry everybody. And by
[33:05] everybody, I meant like 5,000 people.
[33:07] But sorry everybody. I we may be done
[33:10] here. Um and you may never take me back
[33:13] again, but this is a book I really need
[33:15] to and want to write. So no one's going
[33:17] to like it, but here it is. So it didn't
[33:20] feel like a safe gambit to write that
[33:22] book. It felt like I was and I quit my
[33:24] job at GQ to go and do that. I lost all
[33:26] my credibility as a literary figure. I
[33:29] mean it it felt like a big risk. So
[33:31] obviously turned out great. We all know.
[33:34] Um so two a couple things happened. one
[33:36] is to be very frank that book made me
[33:38] incredibly wealthy to the point that I
[33:40] can do whatever the [ __ ] I want for the
[33:42] rest of my life. Um and and so
[33:48] and so I will
[33:50] because the other thing it did is that
[33:53] it made everyone decide some stuff about
[33:56] me and the great thing about that is
[33:58] that that's in concrete essentially. So
[34:01] once enough people have decided what you
[34:04] are, you are totally free because
[34:08] there's nothing you can do to alter
[34:11] their opinion of you. It's such an
[34:12] enormous waste of time anyway. But
[34:14] they're finished. They already decide
[34:15] they're they're done. They're it's done.
[34:18] They're done with you. So do whatever
[34:20] you want. Do whatever you want. And
[34:22] that's and that feels those two things
[34:24] feel so liberating. And don't think I am
[34:26] not aware that first of all, no woman in
[34:29] the history of my family has ever been
[34:30] independently wealthy. Two, no, very few
[34:34] female artists and creators have ever
[34:36] had that kind of freedom. And don't
[34:39] think I'm going to waste that by not
[34:41] taking doing whatever I want and taking
[34:43] whatever risks. And do you think I think
[34:45] it's so great to write a self-help book
[34:48] right now? Right after Signature of All
[34:50] Things was just beginning, they were
[34:52] just beginning to take me back, you
[34:55] know? They were just beginning to take
[34:57] me back. And I can now they're like, "Oh
[34:59] my god,
[35:01] and now and now basically a book that's
[35:04] a that's a Facebook post, you know, like
[35:07] and I was like, yeah, that's what I want
[35:08] to do right now." and next and so I have
[35:11] this so my brand is my brand there's a
[35:15] level at which your brand is decided is
[35:17] put upon you by other people you're not
[35:20] I mean unless you're a superb marketing
[35:22] genius essentially your brand is what
[35:24] the public decides you are um and then
[35:27] just do whatever you want anyway
[35:30] cares you know I mean I have such
[35:33] freedom I have such freedom um and I
[35:35] don't want to
[35:36] I mean I'm not kidding when I say I mean
[35:38] the reason I wrote the signature of all
[35:39] things is because I thought there aren't
[35:41] a lot of women writers who have the time
[35:43] and the resources to spend four years
[35:45] writing a book about a 19th century
[35:47] virgin who spends her life studying moss
[35:49] and can afford to go to Tahiti and do
[35:52] this. I mean, I can do this. So, I'm
[35:55] going to do this. Um, and people can
[35:58] come along with me or not, but I'm
[36:01] having a ball and and I have to say I
[36:04] have so much respect for you for that.
[36:06] But it's a it is a bold thing. I had so
[36:10] many people tell me in the business who
[36:14] love signature, you would have won a
[36:16] Pulitzer if it hadn't been free for you.
[36:18] Pray love.
[36:19] I don't need a P.
[36:20] No, I know you don't. I absolutely know
[36:22] that. I don't need one.
[36:23] You are not managing your brand the way
[36:26] the world
[36:26] no would manage.
[36:28] And I tell you, if I started managing it
[36:30] that way, I think it would go very
[36:31] badly. I had a conversation with um the
[36:33] the performance artist Sarah Jones
[36:35] recently and she said the greatest thing
[36:37] that I've now been stealing and saying
[36:39] everywhere, but she said
[36:41] at the moment of the beginning of
[36:43] creation for her, not the beginning of
[36:45] creation,
[36:47] how whenever you think that may have
[36:49] occurred. I was I was about to throw out
[36:51] a number and then I was like fill in the
[36:53] blank years ago. Um 4,000 years ago when
[36:57] the um but she's talking about her own
[37:00] creation, right? And she said, she said,
[37:03] "There's a highway that I need to get on
[37:05] when I'm inspired and excited about
[37:07] something. And the minute I start
[37:10] thinking, can my agents sell this? Will
[37:13] people like it? Does this reflect my
[37:16] brand? Will my audience come along with
[37:18] me?" She said, "At that moment of the
[37:20] initiation of the creative journey, the
[37:22] second I have any of those thoughts, I
[37:24] have taken such a bad detour off that
[37:27] highway and I'm going to end up in a
[37:29] neighborhood." And this is her line
[37:30] where she said where they're going to
[37:31] beat me, rob me, and take the hub caps
[37:34] off my car. That is where I'm going to
[37:36] end up immediately after getting off the
[37:38] highway that I needed to be on. Right.
[37:39] And and I believe that enormously to be
[37:42] true.
[37:42] You know, this is not the same thing,
[37:43] but it's sort of similar. I really
[37:46] believe in writing literary fiction, you
[37:49] have total freedom.
[37:50] Total total freedom. No one's looking
[37:53] because you you know when I the book
[37:55] that I wrote after Belcanto and I
[37:57] remember going out on tour and people
[37:59] saying weren't you so terrified to write
[38:01] another book after a book that was
[38:03] really popular and I was like nobody
[38:05] reads these things you know I mean
[38:07] honestly even if it's 12 million people
[38:11] in in the scope of the world it's kind
[38:14] of like you know and then it's it's
[38:17] over. We're not curing cancer. we're not
[38:20] working working out the malaria problem.
[38:24] Uh and so I always sit down and feel
[38:27] like, oh my gosh, I can say whatever I
[38:29] want. I can hide in plain sight. And
[38:32] we're not even, you know, I met Karen
[38:35] Slaughter, who writes mystery novels
[38:38] when I was in Amsterdam on a book tour.
[38:40] That woman has sold something like 160
[38:44] million books in her life.
[38:45] The Wimpy Kid, the Wimpy Kid guy, 150
[38:48] million. Captain Underpants 80 million
[38:52] books.
[38:52] I mean, you know, you and I were just
[38:55] like putting peanut butter on toast.
[38:57] You you and I accidentally had a hit
[39:00] within the the very small literary world
[39:02] and then there's all this thing around
[39:04] that, right? We're so small scale
[39:06] compared to what and that's
[39:07] compared to Captain Underpants. We very
[39:10] small scale. I mean to me all a lot of
[39:13] this conversation not our conversation
[39:15] but the sort of conversation around
[39:16] literary fiction reminds me of
[39:18] Kissinger's line about his answer when
[39:20] somebody said why is academia why is the
[39:22] world of academia so vicious and he said
[39:24] because the stakes are so small um you
[39:27] know I mean I don't and I don't I truly
[39:30] don't I truly don't care about a legacy
[39:33] because I won't be around to enjoy it
[39:35] um you know I'm enjoying my life at this
[39:38] very moment but when I'm dead what
[39:40] possible posible benefit am I going to
[39:41] have from having any kind of legacy dead
[39:44] doesn't help me I want to do stuff now
[39:47] um and I want to do the stuff that makes
[39:49] you know there's that wonderful Japanese
[39:51] word akigu is that it akigu your reason
[39:53] to get up in the morning
[39:54] I it's so flattering that you're looking
[39:56] at there
[39:57] I'm like who speak but it's that could
[39:59] you help me
[40:00] I know it from my friend Rob Bell but
[40:01] it's your it's the reason that you wake
[40:03] up and go what do we get to do today
[40:06] what do we get to do today
[40:09] what are you scared of now. Um, same
[40:11] thing. I've always been scared of
[40:12] confrontation, emotional confrontation
[40:14] with people I care about. Um, that is
[40:16] the biggest remains the biggest fear of
[40:18] my life and I'm getting so much better
[40:21] at it. But it's still very scary for me.
[40:24] And it doesn't have anything to do with
[40:26] creativity or what we're talking about
[40:27] on stage here. But there are certain
[40:29] conversations that are so almost
[40:32] impossible for me to have that it's
[40:35] easier for me to move to another country
[40:36] and never see that person again than it
[40:39] is to pick up the phone and say, "That
[40:41] really hurt my feelings." Um,
[40:43] wow. It's very hard. So, but I'm but I'm
[40:46] I'm I'm getting there. I don't want to
[40:49] go to my grave with that. I want to kind
[40:50] of I want to be proc, you know, working
[40:53] on that my whole life. We'll talk about
[40:55] that in the car later.
[40:57] Now I'm terrified.
[41:02] Is there anything that you're scared to
[41:05] do creatively?
[41:07] Well, no. Well, I mean
[41:09] this this is in the list somewhere, but
[41:12] um I think about the whole hunter
[41:15] gatherer thing
[41:16] and I think you are 100% hunter and I am
[41:21] 100% gatherer. One of the reasons that I
[41:25] really think that we do this so well
[41:27] together is we are very good friends and
[41:30] we arrive at the same destination and
[41:33] our planes come in from the completely
[41:36] different sides of the airport and and
[41:38] yet I think we have a lot of respect for
[41:40] each other.
[41:40] We meet in the airport lounge.
[41:42] We meet in the airport lounge. I have so
[41:45] much respect for your hunter quality
[41:49] both in how you live your life that you
[41:52] will go anywhere with a backpack not
[41:56] having any clue where you're going and
[41:59] what the conversation that we were
[42:01] having this afternoon about the hiking
[42:03] and and bringing your father along on
[42:06] these incredibly long hikes and not
[42:08] knowing how long they were and trudging
[42:11] and and I just think God I could never
[42:14] do that. And and that sort of I mean I
[42:17] wouldn't want to I
[42:20] mean I always say my idea of taking a
[42:22] real risk is reading P in a straight
[42:24] back chair. Uh
[42:27] I I am I am a gatherer. I will get your
[42:31] nuts and berries and put them in a
[42:32] basket and bring them back to the
[42:34] hearth.
[42:35] But it's also in your work.
[42:37] So you're always putting yourself out
[42:39] there. You are always on the journey.
[42:42] You are the hero's journey. Uh, and is
[42:45] any of that scary for you?
[42:47] Yeah. All of it is scary. All of it is
[42:49] scary. Well, is that true? Is it all
[42:51] scary?
[42:52] No, it's not. It's scary for me.
[42:54] It's more
[42:55] It's not scary for you.
[42:57] It's more, you know, it's more Here's
[43:00] the thing. I feel like I'm a I don't
[43:03] feel particularly physically courageous.
[43:05] Um,
[43:06] you told me in the car today that your
[43:08] goal was to walk for a year. Yeah, but
[43:11] that's walking. I'm not going to surf.
[43:14] I'm not going to go skiing. I'm not
[43:16] going to, you know,
[43:17] not be home and you're going to wear the
[43:18] same pair of underwear every day and
[43:20] you're going to just walk.
[43:21] I do that even when I'm home, man. Um,
[43:23] but yes, I uh but yeah, anyway, I here's
[43:28] the thing. My view of myself is very
[43:30] Thank you for calling me a hunter
[43:31] because that makes me feel like a sexy
[43:34] cougar. So, thank you. But I um you know
[43:37] that is not actually how I perceive
[43:39] myself because I think I still have a
[43:41] sort of child a vision of myself as a
[43:43] child. I was always very timid and and
[43:44] very fearful and I feel like inside I
[43:46] still feel that that way often. Here's
[43:48] what I feel like my saving grace is is
[43:50] that as scared as I am and as tremulous
[43:53] as I often feel in the world, I'm just
[43:55] 1% more curious than I am afraid.
[43:58] That's beautiful.
[43:59] Just 1%. And you only have to be 1% more
[44:03] curious than afraid to do the thing. Um,
[44:05] and so the curiosity just outweighs the
[44:08] fear.
[44:09] Well, you know, I have something all my
[44:10] life, the risktoleasure ratio. What I
[44:13] really worked out when I lived in
[44:15] Montana and every night on the local
[44:17] news, there would be new and interesting
[44:19] way that citizens died in Missoula. Uh,
[44:22] you know, they they did their hang glide
[44:25] and caught the downdraft, a cougar ate
[44:27] them in the parking lot, whatever. Um,
[44:30] and I would always think no. I mean,
[44:32] there there is the risk almost never
[44:35] outweighs the pleasure for me that I
[44:38] think I would get more out of bungee
[44:39] jumping than I might
[44:42] get when the cord breaks and I I hit the
[44:45] bottom of the gulch. But you you
[44:48] creatively bungee jump and you cliff as
[44:51] a novelist as a gatherer. Yes, I I
[44:54] creatively No, I don't.
[44:57] I don't know. We're losing we're losing
[44:58] this metaphor.
[44:59] We're losing the thread.
[45:00] Um, but I love what you're saying about
[45:02] curiosity.
[45:03] I mean, that's I think, you know, and I
[45:05] talk a lot in this book about, you know,
[45:07] another one of my guiding principles is
[45:09] curiosity over passion because I think
[45:11] another way that people end up getting
[45:13] left out of creative life is that
[45:16] they're constantly being told to follow
[45:17] their passions. And I always feel
[45:18] terrible for graduates sitting in
[45:21] audiences where people tell them to
[45:22] follow their passion and they're like, I
[45:24] don't even know what that what that is.
[45:26] I have one. um or any
[45:28] what direction did it go in? So, how
[45:29] could I follow it?
[45:30] Um I don't um or people who are sort of
[45:34] struggling on their own path at any age
[45:36] and people will just sort of blightly
[45:37] say well yeah just follow your passion
[45:40] in that voice. Um and I feel like it's
[45:42] an I feel like it's a it's sometimes a
[45:45] very cruel piece of advice and sometimes
[45:47] um and usually not very helpful because
[45:49] the deal is this. If you have a central
[45:51] burning passion odds are 10 to one
[45:52] you're already following it. That's kind
[45:54] of the definition of passion. you're do.
[45:55] That's what it means to have one as
[45:57] you're doing it. If you don't have one
[45:59] and somebody tells you to go find one,
[46:03] they're constantly sending you back to
[46:04] look in your purse for the car keys that
[46:06] you have said for 20 years are not in
[46:08] the purse. And they're just like, "Yeah,
[46:09] but did you look in the little side
[46:10] pocket in the purse?"
[46:11] Oh my god. Have we ever done this
[46:12] before? That's one of my favorite
[46:14] metaphors. Really?
[46:15] I use that all the time. The keys are in
[46:17] the drawer. No, they're not. Go back and
[46:19] look again. Really?
[46:20] I didn't know that. One more. It's Look,
[46:22] we're on the same page. this big magic.
[46:26] Um,
[46:27] and and so for me, I just feel like and
[46:29] we live in a passion fetishizing
[46:31] culture. And I think sometimes when
[46:33] people keep hearing that and then they
[46:34] keep saying, "Yeah, but I don't have
[46:36] that thing." Then they think, "Well, I
[46:37] must not be special or matter. Maybe I'm
[46:41] just not supposed to be a thing. Maybe
[46:43] I'm just not a thing." Um, whatever a
[46:46] thing is, I guess I'm not one. And and I
[46:48] feel like the more interesting life is
[46:51] the curiositydriven life. The
[46:52] passion-driven life is all about sort of
[46:54] big signs and dramatic gestures and
[46:56] shaving your head and getting divorced
[46:58] and moving to Nepal and opening an
[47:00] orphanage which most of us don't need to
[47:01] do this week. And um the curiositydriven
[47:04] life is the breadcrumb the trail of
[47:06] breadcrumbs which you know is available
[47:09] daily in a way that passion isn't. I
[47:11] think of myself as a very passion driven
[47:12] person but I can't access my passion
[47:14] every single day but I can access my
[47:16] curiosity every single day. I mean, only
[47:18] when I was in the most savage jaws of
[47:21] deepest depression did that die. Um, but
[47:24] even then, I there was still a little
[47:25] ember of something that was even curious
[47:27] about how are we going to get out of
[47:28] this depression, you know? Do you know
[47:30] what's really funny? I can I think of
[47:33] that in terms of I can access my work
[47:36] ethic every single day.
[47:37] Oh, cool.
[47:38] Yeah. Which is just again coming at it
[47:41] from a different place. I don't think
[47:42] about curiosity. I don't think about
[47:44] creativity. I don't think about
[47:46] discipline every day.
[47:47] I can access my discipline every day.
[47:49] I can get myself there and trust that if
[47:51] I sit down and sit there long enough,
[47:53] sooner or later it may not be today, it
[47:55] will come.
[47:56] What did David Carr say? You can um type
[47:58] until it turns to writing.
[48:01] I actually I would buy that. Yeah, I
[48:04] really would. Um, tell me about Oprah
[48:06] and going out on tour with her and how
[48:10] that experience influenced this book as
[48:13] I think it must have. You know, I'll
[48:15] tell you to drop a name. I was talking
[48:17] to Oprah one day. Um,
[48:20] oh, tell the story about the gym. I just
[48:24] I love that story so
[48:26] so much. Oh, um,
[48:30] she's incredible. She's a she's
[48:32] extraordinary and I will leave a room if
[48:35] someone says a bad thing about her that
[48:37] my loyalty to her and my respect for her
[48:39] is incredible and I've always had that
[48:41] respect for her but having spent some
[48:43] time around her now that has returned to
[48:44] reverence um because she is really
[48:47] really extraordinary. The gym story is
[48:48] that I was in Seattle on book tour for
[48:50] Signature of All Things and I had a time
[48:53] zone thing. So, I woke up early because
[48:55] I was I'm on the East Coast time, but I
[48:56] was on the West Coast. So, my husband,
[48:58] who never gets up early and who never
[49:00] travels with me, was with me. And we did
[49:02] a thing we have never done before or
[49:04] will ever do again in our life, which
[49:05] was go to a gym at 6:30 in the morning.
[49:08] Um, even though you were so wildly
[49:10] rewarded, you'll never do it again.
[49:12] Yeah. I guess how are you going to beat
[49:13] that, though? We walk into the gym at
[49:16] the Four Seasons Hotel in Seattle and we
[49:20] do 10 minutes of exercise, which is
[49:23] about what we do when we go to the gym.
[49:25] And we're wrapping it up. Good. We're up
[49:27] at minute nine and we're like, "We're
[49:28] good. We're good. It's 6. Let's go to
[49:30] the breakfast buffet now, right?" And um
[49:33] and in walks Oprahale Winfrey with her
[49:37] bodyguard at 6:45. It's now 6:45.
[49:41] Um,
[49:43] crazy. And I and I
[49:45] And you knew her because you'd been on
[49:46] her show.
[49:47] Yeah. I'd been on her show twice at that
[49:48] point. That was all the interaction that
[49:50] we had had. And but it was long ago. And
[49:53] a million and a half people have been on
[49:54] her show. Um, and she and she saw Jose
[49:59] and sort of smiled politely at him. And
[50:01] my husband, his real name's not Felipe,
[50:02] by the way. Um, and then I saw her and I
[50:04] said, "Oprah, it's Liz Gilbert." And she
[50:07] said, "How are you?" And I said, "I'm
[50:09] I'm the one who wrote Heat Pray Love."
[50:10] And I was like, I felt like I had to
[50:11] give her.
[50:14] She said, "I I know who you are, Liz."
[50:16] And uh and then immediately Jose and I
[50:20] started backing out of the room, bowing
[50:21] like you would do with a queen
[50:24] just and I just kept saying, "I don't
[50:27] want to take your time. I don't want I
[50:28] know you have no privacy and it's
[50:31] beautiful to see you." And she looked at
[50:32] Jeze and said, "And you're the Brazilian
[50:34] husband I've been hearing so much." She
[50:36] knows everything about everybody. She's
[50:38] amazing. Um, well, and then she said
[50:40] that I she got the bookstore to order
[50:43] more of your books. She said, "I was in
[50:44] the bookstore in Santa Barbara and they
[50:45] were out of Signature of All Things, so
[50:46] I told them to order more." I was like,
[50:48] "Thanks, Mom. That's what my mom does."
[50:51] Um, gee, I wonder if they did it. Ah,
[50:54] she's she's extraordinary. Um, you know,
[50:56] I going on that tour. So, she did then
[50:58] did this tour and invited me and we our
[51:00] magical thinking about that is that she
[51:02] remembered me from the gym and was like,
[51:05] I should have the invitation came. came
[51:08] very shortly thereafter. And I think and
[51:10] my husband's theory is she saw how much
[51:12] you fast you ran out of that room to
[51:14] leave her alone and she thought I could
[51:15] probably spend six weeks with her and
[51:16] she's not going to be a problem. She's
[51:18] not going to bother me because I just
[51:20] don't want to bother I have certain
[51:21] rules around her and one is that I will
[51:23] never ask her for anything and the other
[51:24] is I will never hand her anything
[51:26] because people spend eternity putting
[51:29] things in her hands that is their dream.
[51:31] This is my can you read? Will you
[51:34] support? can you you know and I just
[51:36] won't. Um but I I will tell you the
[51:39] moment that where I saw why she's Oprah
[51:42] Winfrey and nobody else is please.
[51:44] And it was in Newark, New Jersey at this
[51:46] event. So this was this huge tour she
[51:48] did with Ian Vanzant and Deepo Chopra
[51:50] and Rob Bell and me and her and um these
[51:54] stadiums. It was this giant ginormous
[51:56] thing. Um and she's at this stadium tour
[51:59] in New York, New Jersey. and there she
[52:01] says there's a young woman in the
[52:02] audience who I would like to put the
[52:05] spotlight on for a minute and she said
[52:07] this is I can't remember her name but
[52:09] let's say this is Natalie um Natalie's
[52:11] here with her family Natalie is 14 years
[52:13] old and she is a guest of the Makea-Wish
[52:15] Foundation so you know you don't know
[52:18] what but you know we all know what the
[52:21] Makea-Wish Foundation is and we all know
[52:22] that there's something very horrible
[52:25] happening to this girl and to this
[52:26] family and so she this bright beautiful
[52:29] girl stands up and waves and and Oprah
[52:31] said, "I got to meet her backstage and
[52:33] she's so terrific and vivacious and she
[52:35] loves music and just gives her this
[52:36] moment that is so fantastic and her
[52:39] parents are standing behind her crying
[52:40] and it's beautiful." Great. That's
[52:43] terrific. A lot of people could do that.
[52:45] Um, and then she says, "And there's
[52:48] somebody else I'd like to introduce you
[52:49] to who is also a remarkable young woman
[52:52] who I met backstage. Natalie's little
[52:54] sister, Tiffany. Can you stand up?" the
[52:57] nine-year-old
[52:59] who's the little sister of the dying
[53:01] girl and has been probably for years and
[53:04] no one sees
[53:06] and she said, "Can you can you stand
[53:08] up?" I got to talk to Tiffany backstage.
[53:10] She loves horses. She's really good at
[53:14] math. She wants to be a scientist when
[53:15] she grows up. She's a fascinating young
[53:17] woman. I think she's going to be a
[53:18] tremendous She reminds me of me when I
[53:21] was at her age. She loves to read and
[53:23] she just put the light on the person
[53:26] that nobody else sees and pays attention
[53:29] to because she has this 360 degree
[53:32] vision of empathy. And I was like,
[53:35] that's why you're that. That's what you
[53:38] do that nobody else would do and totally
[53:43] self-generated things. So, she's
[53:45] amazing.
[53:46] So, did did that tour have an effect on
[53:49] this book? You know what it did in that
[53:50] I told her? I mean, I've only had one
[53:52] personal conversation in my life with
[53:54] her and it was at one point in that tour
[53:57] and we were talking and she said, "What
[53:58] are you working on?" And I told her I
[53:59] was working on this book about
[54:00] creativity and she said, "Is it just a
[54:03] book for writers or is it going to be a
[54:05] book that's useful for all people?" And
[54:08] at that point, it was just a book for
[54:09] writers. And I was like,
[54:15] and I said, "Oh, it's going to be a book
[54:18] that's useful for all people.
[54:21] So yeah, she influenced it enormously.
[54:26] Okay, we've been talking for an hour, so
[54:28] we have to No, we have you look above
[54:30] the exit sign up there, there's a glowy
[54:32] clock. Uh, so we have to make some
[54:35] decisions.
[54:36] Let's make some decisions.
[54:40] [Laughter]
[54:41] Do you want to take questions from the
[54:43] Let's take a couple questions from the
[54:44] Okay. And we're going to take a couple
[54:45] questions from the audience.
[54:46] Here's my rule. Do you have rules?
[54:48] I have rules. Okay, cool.
[54:50] We're both such hard asses about this.
[54:52] I know. Do you want to do yours and I'll
[54:53] do mine? Or which way?
[54:54] Here's what you don't do. You don't get
[54:56] up and say, "It's not so much a question
[54:58] as it is a speech. It's not so much a
[55:02] question as it is um a weird assault.
[55:08] It is not so much a question as it is a
[55:10] plea for you to read my manuscript." So,
[55:12] don't do any of those things. Just if
[55:14] you have an actual question that is a
[55:16] real question, we will hear your
[55:18] question. That is my rule.
[55:19] Do you have a rule?
[55:20] Mine's very similar. I say if you're the
[55:22] crazy person in the audience, realize
[55:25] realize that about yourself and and just
[55:28] hold yourself in your seat.
[55:33] Um, oh, I'm so stealing that one, Ann.
[55:37] Okay, one one very brief nonsequittor. I
[55:40] I interviewed Sally Man actually both in
[55:43] Nashville but also at Symphony Space in
[55:45] New York the day her book Cold Still
[55:47] came out which is a fabulous book. But
[55:49] Sally Man wrote a memoir about her
[55:51] career. She's a photographer and if the
[55:53] name sounds familiar it's because she's
[55:55] took those amazing naked pictures of her
[55:57] children that really rocked the world in
[55:58] the 80s. And so I said this, you know,
[56:01] if you're the crazy person, just just
[56:04] hold on really tight and wait in your
[56:07] chair till we leave the theater. And
[56:09] everybody was great. They were so great
[56:11] and the questions were so smart. And
[56:14] then at some point this guy stands up
[56:16] and he's crazy guy. And he's standing up
[56:19] and he's going on and on about, you
[56:20] know, Sally's been persecuted all these
[56:22] years and nobody's ever given her the
[56:24] chance to say that she loves her
[56:26] children. And he's going on and on and
[56:28] he's so crazy. And we're up on stage and
[56:31] she leans over and she says to me, not
[56:34] on the mic, she goes, "It's my brother.
[56:39] Oh,
[56:41] and I said to her, "Out him
[56:44] immediately."
[56:46] And so she goes, "It's my brother Bob.
[56:48] You can sit down." And I said, "Who
[56:53] would have guessed crazy guy is actually
[56:56] Sally Man's brother?"
[56:59] It was a really inappropriate thing to
[57:01] say.
[57:02] [Applause]
[57:04] Oh my god.
[57:05] And she said to me later, You know, my
[57:08] daughter Virginia said the just the
[57:11] craziest thing to me after that event.
[57:13] She said that you said, "Who would have
[57:16] guessed that crazy guy was Sally Man's
[57:18] brother?" You didn't say that.
[57:19] Who would have said something like that?
[57:20] I said, "Oh, Virginia, what a horrible
[57:22] thing." Ann wouldn't have said that. I
[57:24] was like, "Oh my god.
[57:27] Oh my god."
[57:28] And he was crazy, you know, like he he
[57:32] really was.
[57:34] So, with all of that luggage behind you,
[57:39] who has a very succinct and specific
[57:43] that smacks you just you've got sanity
[57:46] written all over you. Yellow scarf. Yes.
[57:49] Just shout out.
[57:50] I'm a psycho magnet. So, I'm not going
[57:52] to pick the person. Thank you so much.
[57:55] Let me repeat the question a bit, but
[57:56] it's when you're The question is about
[57:58] something for me. Pray love. you're in
[57:59] the jaws of depression and you're really
[58:01] in the darkness and the 1% of curiosity
[58:04] seems so far away. How do you push
[58:06] yourself through that? Um, here's the
[58:09] crazy. In the end, I started to think of
[58:12] it as this really weird almost physical
[58:15] challenge because I thought this is
[58:17] really interesting. At the moment in
[58:19] your life where you feel the weakest and
[58:20] the most depleted and the most defeated,
[58:22] you have to summon the most strength.
[58:24] That's insane. What a weird pro, what a
[58:27] weird system that is for how we
[58:29] transcend. And yet
[58:32] again and again and again when you speak
[58:33] to people who've been all the way down
[58:36] and come up, they'll they'll talk of
[58:38] that being the truth and the reality of
[58:39] what it means that somehow you have to
[58:41] find when you have no strength, you have
[58:44] to find more strength than you'd ever
[58:45] needed in your entire life. It's
[58:47] tremendously ironic. It's also really
[58:49] interesting as a sort of psychological
[58:52] and almost physical challenge. And so
[58:54] what I would do is I started this thing
[58:56] where I would wake up in the morning and
[58:58] I usually woke up I had a ter some of
[59:00] you who have depression and anxiety may
[59:02] know the 4:30 in the morning wake up um
[59:05] where you wake up in the gasping
[59:07] darkness and it's too late to take a
[59:10] sleeping pill and it's too early to get
[59:11] up and you're just being eaten by your
[59:14] thoughts and it's awful. It's the worst.
[59:16] Um and I would do a kind of cat scan on
[59:19] myself. So, you know, when you go and
[59:21] get a CAT scan, what you're looking for
[59:22] is the one spot, right? Is that what CAT
[59:25] scans and radiology or X-rays are, chest
[59:27] X-rays, you're looking for the one dark
[59:28] spot, which is the pathology. So, when
[59:31] you're in severe depression, your whole
[59:34] body is pathology. Your whole life feels
[59:36] like a pathology. And you do this
[59:38] reverse CAT scan where you're looking
[59:40] for the cluster of five cells of light,
[59:44] you know, um that's what the challenge
[59:46] is. And so every morning when I would
[59:48] lay there, I would and it was a job to
[59:52] try to find the tumor of light, right,
[59:55] that was growing in a completely
[59:57] pathologized life. And then think, what
[1:00:00] can I give that? What can I feed that?
[1:00:03] I'm going to call it a tumor because I'm
[1:00:04] just doing this reverse metaphor, but
[1:00:06] what can I feed that today so that
[1:00:08] tomorrow it's like eight cells and the
[1:00:12] next day it's 10 and the next day it's
[1:00:14] 20. because you can't push darkness out.
[1:00:16] You can only grow light. You can only
[1:00:19] grow light. So, you have to find
[1:00:20] whatever and and and the thing would be
[1:00:22] different every day. Um sometimes it
[1:00:24] would be call somebody who you really
[1:00:26] care about. Give something to someone.
[1:00:29] Um practice some generosity today. Who
[1:00:31] can you give something to just to feel
[1:00:33] like you have something to offer, right?
[1:00:35] Um who can you look in on? Who uh how
[1:00:39] can you exercise in a way that makes you
[1:00:40] feel some vitality again? What can you
[1:00:42] read that's inspiring? Um, how about not
[1:00:45] listening to Leonard Cohen? Um,
[1:00:49] you know, how about maybe not watching
[1:00:51] Verer Herzog movies? How about doing How
[1:00:54] about crossing the street to walk in the
[1:00:56] sunlight deliberately? How about choice
[1:00:57] after choice after choice, seeing what
[1:01:00] you can feed that's a nutrient to get
[1:01:02] that light to grow. And for me, a big
[1:01:04] one was starting to study Italian, which
[1:01:06] is where Eat, Pray, Love really began. I
[1:01:08] just thought, I need to replace some
[1:01:10] language. All the language in my head is
[1:01:12] so disruptive and so dark right now. So
[1:01:14] I need to put a new language in my head
[1:01:15] that has no bad memories. So I literally
[1:01:18] have to learn a new language. And I went
[1:01:19] to like adult school for divorce ladies
[1:01:22] and um started taking an Italian class
[1:01:25] so that I could literally have new words
[1:01:27] that didn't have any dark association.
[1:01:29] So all of that is about does that make
[1:01:31] sense? Um it's it's the biggest
[1:01:33] challenge of your life. It just seems so
[1:01:35] very helpless. But but everyone who had
[1:01:37] ever been through it said the same thing
[1:01:38] like well here's the game. You have to
[1:01:41] find all the strength in the world when
[1:01:42] you have none. Go. Wow. Intense.
[1:01:46] It's beautiful.
[1:01:48] I want to get somebody over here because
[1:01:49] I have been facing away the whole time.
[1:01:51] Yes.
[1:01:52] Well, I think the question is about
[1:01:54] changing conversations about creativity
[1:01:55] in the arts. You know, I think we're
[1:01:57] living in an Etsy moment. Um, and I'm so
[1:02:00] glad. I'm so glad that we are because
[1:02:03] that sort of exemplifies everything that
[1:02:05] I believe in and stand for.
[1:02:07] Felting. What's that?
[1:02:08] Felting.
[1:02:09] A lot of felting. A lot of felting going
[1:02:11] on.
[1:02:12] A lot of coloring books. It's a big
[1:02:14] change in the cultural conversation
[1:02:15] around the arts. You know, I I got to
[1:02:17] tell you, I one thing I'm really
[1:02:19] terrible about is huge social questions.
[1:02:22] Um, because I don't tend to see the
[1:02:25] world that way. I'm not good at that. My
[1:02:27] my record so far in life for solving
[1:02:29] huge social issues is zero. Um I'm much
[1:02:32] better kind of at in like the questions
[1:02:35] of the individual than I am at the
[1:02:36] questions of the culture because I feel
[1:02:38] like the culture gets so big I don't
[1:02:39] know how to deal with it.
[1:02:40] But what about committed?
[1:02:42] Oh right. I take that back. I'm so good
[1:02:45] at writing. That is a big cultural
[1:02:46] question, isn't it? Yeah, it really and
[1:02:48] and in a world view cultural question
[1:02:51] that what she was asking about
[1:02:52] creativity is what you did with marriage
[1:02:55] and committed which is another book that
[1:02:56] I really love and if you're if you know
[1:02:58] anybody who's thinking about getting
[1:03:00] married give them that book because it's
[1:03:03] such an incredible thoughtful look at
[1:03:05] marriage all over the world.
[1:03:07] Thank you.
[1:03:07] So look, you did it.
[1:03:09] I needed to write that book because I
[1:03:11] needed to figure that stuff out. And
[1:03:12] there are books that you know there are
[1:03:13] books that you want to write and there
[1:03:14] are books that you need to write and
[1:03:16] that was one I needed to write because I
[1:03:18] the only way I could change my thinking
[1:03:21] about marriage was to learn everything
[1:03:22] about it and then find a pathway to make
[1:03:24] myself feel comfortable with it.
[1:03:25] Okay. So can you answer that question?
[1:03:27] I don't know if I can. I don't know if I
[1:03:28] have an answer. I mean I I it's hard for
[1:03:30] me to say I don't know because that's a
[1:03:31] hard thing for me to say. I'm bad at it.
[1:03:34] But the truth is I don't know that I
[1:03:35] have a big vision on that. But thank you
[1:03:37] for thank you for asking. Um, how's the
[1:03:40] balcony all the way in the very back
[1:03:42] grow? Yes. You have such a strong
[1:03:44] authentic voice. How did you find it?
[1:03:47] It's a good question.
[1:03:49] Thank you. I'm uh
[1:03:54] I'm tempted to say by trying out a bunch
[1:03:57] of others
[1:03:59] first, right? Um the the wonderful
[1:04:02] psychoanalyst Adam Phillips says that
[1:04:04] sometimes the only way we can learn I
[1:04:05] mean this is for me. This is how I've
[1:04:07] learned everything in my life. Sometimes
[1:04:09] the only way we can learn boundaries is
[1:04:10] to practice excess to see where the
[1:04:13] boundaries are. Um because otherwise you
[1:04:15] just don't know. Um and so I think it's
[1:04:17] almost the same way for me with like
[1:04:19] that's certainly been the case for me
[1:04:20] with most of the lessons that I've
[1:04:21] learned in my life is that I was only
[1:04:23] able to learn them by going over the
[1:04:27] boundary of what was too much and then
[1:04:29] being like, "Oh, I guess that's where
[1:04:30] the line is." Um oh, that hurt and hurt
[1:04:33] a bunch of other people. Back it up. You
[1:04:35] know? Um, and I think with my voice it's
[1:04:37] a little bit the same practicing. I
[1:04:39] mean, certainly in my 20s, I was trying
[1:04:41] to write like everybody. I was trying to
[1:04:43] write like Annie Pru for so long. Most
[1:04:45] of the stories in Pilgrims, I think,
[1:04:47] sound like Annie Pru.
[1:04:49] Thank Well, not for lack of that's only
[1:04:52] because I wasn't doing a very good Annie
[1:04:53] Pru imitation, but I was trying to.
[1:04:55] I congratulate you. Um,
[1:04:58] Ann loves Annie Pru's writing. you can
[1:05:00] see um I I think I just tried a bunch of
[1:05:04] other voices. Um and and then through
[1:05:08] that and ultimately I don't know how did
[1:05:10] I get a strong authentic voice.
[1:05:12] I I think it's actually DNA. I really I
[1:05:14] mean no joke. I think it's like being
[1:05:15] tall. It's like being blonde. It's like
[1:05:17] it's who you are. I'm tall, blonde,
[1:05:19] strong, and authentic. Um
[1:05:23] I don't know. I mean, I think I had to I
[1:05:27] think I played I played around with a
[1:05:28] you didn't know me in my 20s. I played
[1:05:30] around with a lot of different
[1:05:31] identities. We were at the store today
[1:05:32] and there was a jacket that I said there
[1:05:34] was a period of my life when I would
[1:05:35] have worn that. Like there's a that's
[1:05:37] something I was going to be trying to
[1:05:39] pretend to be. So, I think I I had to
[1:05:41] pretend to be a bunch of stuff until I
[1:05:42] found my way to my real self. And I
[1:05:44] don't advise that. If you can do it
[1:05:46] another way, do it another way. But
[1:05:48] unfortunately, that's the only way I I
[1:05:49] was ever able to figure it out. And I
[1:05:51] just made eye contact with you. So, yes.
[1:05:55] Can I can I jump in here because this is
[1:05:57] a question that I have in my lap. Talk
[1:06:00] about the Melville letter to Hawthorne.
[1:06:04] That was so helpful to me to read that.
[1:06:07] Okay.
[1:06:07] Um I will and I will also
[1:06:09] Oh, and repeat her question.
[1:06:11] I will also say
[1:06:13] I think you can value your work without
[1:06:15] jeopardizing your life.
[1:06:18] I valued my work through my entire 20s
[1:06:20] and I never put myself in financial
[1:06:23] jeopardy over my work. When I talk about
[1:06:25] not quitting your job, I'm talking at
[1:06:27] the most real level about not putting
[1:06:30] yourself in a situation where you're
[1:06:31] going to be in trouble. And I have full
[1:06:34] faith in your resourcefulness as an
[1:06:36] adult that you can do both of those
[1:06:38] things at the same time. And at the same
[1:06:40] time that I was working three jobs to
[1:06:43] pay the bills because I needed a roof
[1:06:45] and I needed and I needed there's a I
[1:06:47] can't worry about I grew up in a family
[1:06:50] where like taking care of yourself was
[1:06:52] so valued and it was so driven into me
[1:06:54] that if I worry start worrying about how
[1:06:56] I'm going to look after myself or where
[1:06:58] the money's going to come from next
[1:06:59] month that's the only thing I can think
[1:07:00] about. So I needed to set myself up so
[1:07:03] that I was didn't have to worry about
[1:07:04] that. So I needed to become my own
[1:07:06] patron right? I needed to become my own
[1:07:08] sugar daddy, my own studio wife, my own
[1:07:11] grant writer, you know, and the way I
[1:07:12] did that was by bartending and waiting
[1:07:14] tables and working in a bookstore and
[1:07:15] selling things in a flea market and
[1:07:17] doing journalism when I could get the
[1:07:18] work and all of that. Never did that
[1:07:21] devalue the work because the work came
[1:07:25] before all of that even began. The work
[1:07:27] was setting the alarm an hour earlier.
[1:07:29] The way I valued my work was getting up
[1:07:32] an hour earlier and before I did any of
[1:07:34] those other jobs doing my writing. So, I
[1:07:36] could go tired to my bookstore job, but
[1:07:39] I wasn't going to go tired to my
[1:07:40] writing. Valuing the work meant every
[1:07:42] single week sending out another short
[1:07:45] story to another magazine, another
[1:07:47] request, another attempt. Valuing the
[1:07:49] work meant knocking on doors at
[1:07:50] magazines and saying, "I'm really good
[1:07:52] writer. You should hire me. I I should
[1:07:54] have a job here." All of that could be
[1:07:56] done at the same time as making sure
[1:07:58] that I didn't go under. Do you
[1:08:01] understand what I mean? So I don't see
[1:08:02] them as being in fact I actually think
[1:08:05] that there's a tremendous honor that you
[1:08:08] come into and sort of bone building that
[1:08:10] you come into by supporting yourself
[1:08:12] that will make you stronger as an artist
[1:08:14] that will make you more powerful and
[1:08:16] more confident as an artist. Um so do
[1:08:19] both. The answer is yes both if that
[1:08:22] makes sense.
[1:08:23] And and also think of it as being in
[1:08:26] love. If you have three jobs and you are
[1:08:28] in love with somebody, you are going to
[1:08:30] see that person. You're going to find
[1:08:32] those minutes and it's never going to
[1:08:34] feel like a burden and you're never
[1:08:35] going to quit your job so you have more
[1:08:37] time to spend with your lover. Everybody
[1:08:39] understands that that's craziness,
[1:08:42] but you just miss it. No. Um,
[1:08:46] again, you have to go to the excess to
[1:08:49] find the boundary. Um, but you're
[1:08:53] absolutely right. And no one who was
[1:08:54] ever having an affair had their lover
[1:08:57] who they haven't seen in a week call and
[1:08:58] say, "I'm in town. I have an hour." And
[1:09:01] they said, "I'm a little busy." Like
[1:09:03] when you're when you're in love, you you
[1:09:06] make you find that hour. You make it.
[1:09:07] The Melville story is a letter that
[1:09:10] Melville wrote to Hawthorne. Um they
[1:09:12] were pen pals, not unlike us, an um and
[1:09:16] he it's this heartbreaking letter where
[1:09:18] he just said, "I am pulled hither and
[1:09:21] thither by circumstance." He just this
[1:09:23] and the whole I only put a piece of it
[1:09:24] in Big Magic, but there's a whole long
[1:09:26] letter where he just is laying out all
[1:09:28] his burdens, all his responsibilities,
[1:09:29] all his troubles. Everybody wants a
[1:09:31] piece of him. He has no time. And he
[1:09:33] said, "I'm longing for the cool summer
[1:09:35] green grass uninterrupted days in which
[1:09:38] a man should compose." And I put this in
[1:09:41] Big Magic to say
[1:09:44] this is the desire that never goes away.
[1:09:46] I don't know a single artist, no matter
[1:09:48] how successful they are, who doesn't
[1:09:50] long for this Edenic dream of some sort
[1:09:54] of utopian thing that's going to happen
[1:09:56] someday where all the obstacles and all
[1:09:59] the responsibilities are going to be
[1:10:00] removed and you're just going to be
[1:10:01] given this eternity of slow languid warm
[1:10:06] summer green grass growing days in which
[1:10:08] to focus completely on creativity. No
[1:10:10] one ever gets that. No one ever gets
[1:10:12] that. Melville never got it. And he
[1:10:14] wrote Moby Dick anyway. He wrote it
[1:10:17] anyway. He did it the way we write our
[1:10:19] books. I wrote today I had 20 minutes
[1:10:22] before I met you here and I worked on my
[1:10:25] novel and I'm on book tour and that's
[1:10:27] how much time I had. And it's not ideal.
[1:10:31] It's not This is not an ideal
[1:10:32] circumstance in which to be working on a
[1:10:34] novel.
[1:10:34] You could have left UA a little earlier.
[1:10:36] No, I I had obligations.
[1:10:40] You could. My life is so full of
[1:10:41] demands, Ann. I had to try on all those
[1:10:43] pants.
[1:10:44] Gone into the dressing room and just sat
[1:10:46] down. Um, Liz Gilbert, why don't you
[1:10:49] tell us why you won't be having a
[1:10:51] signing line tonight? Okay, so here's
[1:10:53] the situation, you guys. My book tour
[1:10:56] began in the middle of September in New
[1:10:58] York City and it ends in the middle of
[1:11:01] December in Germany. And along the way,
[1:11:04] I'm going to six countries and I don't
[1:11:07] even know how many cities. I haven't had
[1:11:08] the the stomach to look at the number of
[1:11:10] them. Um, and I'm not and this is
[1:11:12] something I want to do and it's
[1:11:13] something I particularly want to do with
[1:11:15] this book because I feel like if you
[1:11:17] write a manifesto then you should bring
[1:11:19] your manifesto into the world, right?
[1:11:20] You should go out there and sort of like
[1:11:22] stand tall for your manifesto. And I
[1:11:25] want to bring this book to as many
[1:11:27] audiences as I possibly can. But as I
[1:11:29] was planning this tour and looking at
[1:11:31] what the demands of that tour was going
[1:11:32] to be, I realized that um the only way I
[1:11:36] was going to be able to do that and get
[1:11:38] through it without getting sick, and you
[1:11:40] and I know about getting sick on book
[1:11:42] tour, it happens usually every book tour
[1:11:44] for us. um is
[1:11:45] usually by the third sitting
[1:11:48] um was to be very real and honest with
[1:11:52] myself about the limits of my energies
[1:11:55] and my capacities, what I can physically
[1:11:57] and emotionally do when I'm going from
[1:12:00] airplane to airplane and city to city
[1:12:01] and hotel and hotel and venue to venue.
[1:12:04] And so I decided that for the first time
[1:12:05] I've been on tour for books for over 20
[1:12:07] years now. And this is the first tour
[1:12:09] where I'm not going to be doing a book
[1:12:11] signing line and we won't be doing
[1:12:12] selfies and I won't be meeting you face
[1:12:14] to face. And this was a really hard
[1:12:16] decision for me to make because I know
[1:12:18] that some of you come great distances
[1:12:20] and there's things that you want to say
[1:12:21] and there's a moment that you want to
[1:12:23] have. And so the two things that I want
[1:12:26] to do now, one of them is to formally
[1:12:29] explain why I'm not doing it, which I
[1:12:30] just did, and to ask your forgiveness
[1:12:32] for it. and and I hope that you'll
[1:12:34] understand and um not throw bottles at
[1:12:37] me. Um and the second thing is that I
[1:12:41] want to close with this idea and take
[1:12:43] take you out on this because
[1:12:46] I'm 46 years old and I'm starting to
[1:12:49] finally get real about what I can and
[1:12:53] cannot do. Again, pushing over the
[1:12:55] boundaries into the excess before you
[1:12:57] realize where the line has to be. And
[1:13:00] the reason that I wanted to tell
[1:13:01] everybody personally why I'm not doing
[1:13:02] the book signing line is one to
[1:13:04] the books are all signed.
[1:13:04] They're all signed. Oh, here's what I
[1:13:06] did do. I went to a um a warehouse in
[1:13:08] the middle of Maryland this summer for
[1:13:11] three days and I signed 20,000 copies of
[1:13:14] Big Magic to make sure that everybody
[1:13:15] gets a signed copy. Um so I didn't
[1:13:18] totally abandon you. Um, but what I want
[1:13:22] to the other reason I want to talk about
[1:13:23] it is that when I did that Facebook
[1:13:26] shout out two years ago and I asked you
[1:13:29] or whoever of you were on that Facebook
[1:13:31] page, if you're not practicing your
[1:13:33] creativity, why are you not? One of the
[1:13:35] main things that came up again and again
[1:13:37] and again was people saying, I don't
[1:13:38] have time. I don't have energy. By the
[1:13:41] time I've given everything that I give,
[1:13:43] at the end of the day, there's
[1:13:44] absolutely nothing left. I'm being sort
[1:13:47] of eaten by my life. and and that time
[1:13:49] isn't there. And so I hope that you'll
[1:13:52] take this example of this thing that I
[1:13:55] had to say no to that disappointed a lot
[1:13:57] of people and allow yourself to walk out
[1:14:00] of here thinking about what in your life
[1:14:03] you might have to start saying no to
[1:14:05] even at the risk of disappointing people
[1:14:07] that you care about, even at the risk of
[1:14:09] maybe not being as loved, in order to
[1:14:12] create the space and the time to do the
[1:14:15] thing that you keep saying you want to
[1:14:16] do. Right? because we don't have all the
[1:14:19] time in the world. And the only way
[1:14:21] you're going to get that time is to make
[1:14:22] it. And the only way you're going to
[1:14:23] make it is to start saying no to a bunch
[1:14:26] of other stuff. And look, if the if the
[1:14:28] no was easy, you would have said it a
[1:14:30] long time ago, right? So the things that
[1:14:32] you might have to start saying no to
[1:14:33] might be very difficult and very hard
[1:14:35] for you to say no to, but they have to
[1:14:37] be done. And I'm somebody who never said
[1:14:40] no until I was, I think, 34 was, I
[1:14:42] think, the first time that word came out
[1:14:44] of my mouth. Um, which again explains a
[1:14:46] lot about my 20s, but um, I just I
[1:14:51] didn't know how to I didn't know you
[1:14:53] could. Um, and the reason and it's such
[1:14:56] an interesting thing because the reason
[1:14:57] I never said no, I'm a big pleaser and I
[1:14:59] want everybody to be happy and I want to
[1:15:01] be liked and I want to be loved. Um, the
[1:15:03] reason I never said no to people for so
[1:15:05] many years was because I didn't want
[1:15:08] people to be disappointed and I didn't
[1:15:10] want people to like me less. That's
[1:15:12] quite frankly why I said yes to
[1:15:14] everything. And then I finally hit a
[1:15:16] wall where I realized I had to start
[1:15:18] setting boundaries in my life or even
[1:15:19] learning what they were. And what I
[1:15:22] realized when I started saying no to
[1:15:24] people, it was actually really amazing.
[1:15:26] So I'd had this huge fear that if you
[1:15:27] say no to people, they won't like you as
[1:15:28] much and and and they'll be
[1:15:30] disappointed. When I started saying no
[1:15:32] to people, what I discovered was that
[1:15:34] they don't like you as much and they get
[1:15:35] really disappointed.
[1:15:37] It's totally true. There's a reason I
[1:15:39] never did it because everything that I
[1:15:42] feared comes to pass. People don't like
[1:15:44] it. I don't like being said no to,
[1:15:47] right? Nobody likes being said. If
[1:15:48] there's something you want from someone
[1:15:50] and they say no, you don't like it. It's
[1:15:52] just a fact of life. And yet part of
[1:15:54] maturity and part of honoring the
[1:15:56] limited energies that you have is being
[1:15:59] able to allow another person to stand in
[1:16:02] their disappointment and being able to
[1:16:04] observe it and feel it even and say, "I
[1:16:06] recognize that this is disappointing for
[1:16:08] you and I'm going to let you have that
[1:16:10] because I need to hold this now because
[1:16:12] I'm not going to be here forever and
[1:16:15] there's stuff I want to do and there's a
[1:16:16] way I want to feel and I'm not doing
[1:16:18] that stuff and I'm not feeling that way
[1:16:20] and it has to start now." So, that's
[1:16:22] what I'd like to invite you all to think
[1:16:24] about as you walk out.
[1:16:27] Thank you. And thank you for not
[1:16:29] throwing bottles at me.
[1:16:32] I appreciate it.
[1:16:34] You want to sing?
[1:16:36] You guys want to sing?
[1:16:37] Will you sing a song with me?
[1:16:40] And an um sure. Um
[1:16:42] and then we actually do have to go and
[1:16:44] Jane meet me up here. And Jane is gonna
[1:16:47] come and sing with us. Jane, where is
[1:16:48] Jane? Can you come sing?
[1:16:51] Come, come on up. Jane Hamilton,
[1:16:54] everybody. Oh, where is she? Where is
[1:16:58] she? She left 15 minutes ago.
[1:16:59] There she is.
[1:17:01] Um, I'm giving Jane my microphone.
[1:17:04] So, on this book tour, one thing I've
[1:17:05] been doing instead of the book signing
[1:17:06] line is I've been doing a song at the
[1:17:08] end of the night and asking everybody to
[1:17:09] sing. Bnee Brown says, "Come on, Jane
[1:17:12] Hamilton.
[1:17:14] She's so awesome."
[1:17:15] America's famous novelist crawling on
[1:17:18] the
[1:17:20] Hi Janie.
[1:17:21] I'm not wearing your outfit. I had to do
[1:17:23] something sort of extreme just to you
[1:17:26] know
[1:17:27] you're awesome.
[1:17:27] Yeah. Right. Right. Um Hey, that was
[1:17:30] Do you have your phone?
[1:17:31] That was wonderful. That was sweetheart.
[1:17:33] So good both of you.
[1:17:38] I'm just here to say that was really
[1:17:40] great. I don't know.
[1:17:42] Two out of three.
[1:17:44] I was going to say two of the best
[1:17:46] female novelists in the world are on
[1:17:47] this stage right now.
[1:17:50] I'm not going to say who. Um uh
[1:17:55] um do you have your phone with you so we
[1:17:56] can get the lyrics?
[1:17:58] That's We only called you up here for
[1:17:59] your and for your voice.
[1:18:01] Okay. Yeah.
[1:18:02] Cool. So here's what you all So here's
[1:18:03] why I'm doing this. There's something
[1:18:05] that happens when people sing together
[1:18:07] that can't happen any other way. And
[1:18:09] Nashville.
[1:18:10] And it is Nashville. And you probably
[1:18:12] guys probably sing more than other
[1:18:13] cities. So I'm expecting good stuff. um
[1:18:16] unless you go to church, unless you sing
[1:18:18] in a band, you probably don't do public
[1:18:20] singing. And public singing is really
[1:18:21] important. One of the things that Bnee
[1:18:22] found in her research about
[1:18:23] wholeheartedness is um wholehearted
[1:18:26] people sing and dance. And she kept
[1:18:28] trying to bury that data because she it
[1:18:30] freaked her out. And um and her graduate
[1:18:33] students kept saying, "Bnee, how come
[1:18:35] you never publish? How come you and
[1:18:36] she's I don't want to talk about the
[1:18:37] singing and the dancing." So last time,
[1:18:39] so I saw Bnee two weeks ago and we sang
[1:18:42] together. Um, we sang I Will Survive,
[1:18:44] which was fantastic. Um, with a bunch of
[1:18:47] women in an audience that was really
[1:18:48] great. So, what we're going to sing
[1:18:49] tonight, if you would all take out your
[1:18:50] devices because I know you have them.
[1:18:52] Um, what you're going to do is you're
[1:18:53] going to Google lyrics
[1:18:55] Take Me Home Country Road, John Denver,
[1:18:59] which is my go-to karaoke song because
[1:19:01] it has three notes and anybody can sing
[1:19:05] it and we know most of the words anyway.
[1:19:10] That's what we're going to do. And then
[1:19:10] we're going to walk out of here. And
[1:19:12] we're gonna walk out.
[1:19:14] Don't let me down, Nashville. I want
[1:19:17] hands in the air. I want people standing
[1:19:19] up. Will you stand up?
[1:19:22] Here we go.
[1:19:22] I kind of basically
[1:19:23] a little preparation would have been
[1:19:25] Well, you kind of basically know it
[1:19:26] because you've been singing. I sing it.
[1:19:28] Well, I also sing it every Wednesday at
[1:19:30] um the Rat Karaoke bar in Frenchtown,
[1:19:33] New Jersey in the basement where my
[1:19:36] friends and I plan days in advance what
[1:19:39] our song list is going to be for karaoke
[1:19:41] because it's very important to us.
[1:19:43] Here we go. Here we go.
[1:19:44] Okay.
[1:19:45] Can I get Come on in the middle.
[1:19:47] Yes. Yes.
[1:19:49] I I can't I'm going to sing it low.
[1:19:51] Yeah. You get in the middle because I
[1:19:53] can't even see.
[1:19:54] And then maybe we can make it big.
[1:19:55] Everybody can join. cat. I'll jump in.
[1:19:57] You'll jump in. She's got it.
[1:19:59] I got it. We got it. Ready?
[1:20:02] Almost heaven,
[1:20:05] West Virginia,
[1:20:08] Blue Ridge Mountain,
[1:20:10] Shannondoa
[1:20:12] River.
[1:20:14] Life is old there. Older than the trees,
[1:20:20] younger than the mountains.
[1:20:24] Blowing like a breeze. Country road.
[1:20:29] Take me home
[1:20:32] to the place
[1:20:36] I belong.
[1:20:39] West Virginia
[1:20:43] m
[1:20:49] country road.
[1:20:51] Someone's harmonizing so beautifully.
[1:20:54] All my meories
[1:20:57] around her.
[1:21:00] Miners lady stranger to blue water.
[1:21:06] Everyone does. Dark and dusty
[1:21:09] painted on the sky.
[1:21:13] Misty taste of moonshine.
[1:21:16] Tears in my eye. Country road. would
[1:21:22] take me home
[1:21:25] to the place
[1:21:28] I belong.
[1:21:31] West Virginia,
[1:21:35] Mount M,
[1:21:38] take me home,
[1:21:41] country road.
[1:21:45] I hear her voice in the morning hour.
[1:21:49] She calls me. Radio reminds me of my
[1:21:54] home far away.
[1:21:57] And driving down the road, I get a
[1:22:00] feeling that I should have been home
[1:22:03] yesterday.
[1:22:06] [Music]
[1:22:09] Country road.
[1:22:12] Take me home
[1:22:15] to the place
[1:22:18] I belong.
[1:22:20] [Music]
[1:22:22] West Virginia,
[1:22:25] Mount M,
[1:22:28] take me home,
[1:22:31] country road. One more time.
[1:22:34] Country road.
[1:22:38] Take me home
[1:22:41] to the place
[1:22:43] [Music]
[1:22:44] I belong.
[1:22:47] West Virginia
[1:22:51] mountain.
[1:22:54] Take me home.
[1:22:57] Country road.
[1:23:00] Oh, won't you take me home?
[1:23:03] home
[1:23:04] country roads
[1:23:08] [Applause]
[1:23:16] going around.
[1:23:19] That was so cool.
[1:23:21] Thank you, Nashville. Thank you,
[1:23:30] [Music]