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Inspiration

Buddhism for Laypeople: Awakening in Everyday Life

Culadasa
Culadasa
Feb 12, 2021
9 min de lecture

Source : Culadasa

À regarder · 7

Can a person with a job, a mortgage, and a family to support follow Buddhism all the way to awakening, or does the path quietly require leaving that life behind? That is the question at the center of the first episode of Culadasa's "My Journey" series, published in February 2021, in which the meditation master behind The Mind Illuminated sits for a long, unhurried conversation about the lay practitioner's road. Culadasa, whose given name is John Yates, Ph.D., spent years teaching physiology and neuroscience at the Universities of Calgary and British Columbia, founded the West Coast College of Massage Therapy, and retired from academia in 1996 to an old Apache stronghold in the Arizona wilderness. In this episode he argues that awakening does not remove a single obstacle from ordinary life, that Buddhism's traditional monastic split has left the return to the marketplace underdeveloped, and that his own childhood, spent largely outside of any normal social world, is the ground his practice grew from. What follows is a guide to those ideas, with enough of his reasoning laid out that you can weigh them for yourself.

Lecture · 7 sections

What actually changes after awakening?

The episode opens on a question many people bring to Buddhism: what should a layperson expect once they wake up? Culadasa's answer is that the expectation is both true and false. Awakening, he says, does not make life easier. "Life still has just as many obstacles as it ever did, perhaps more," he tells the interviewer (Culadasa, video at 1:20). What changes is the vantage point from which those obstacles are seen.

He makes the point with a reference to the Buddha himself. The Buddha aged, was injured, fell ill, and died, and the texts record a specific injury: a foot lacerated when his cousin Devadatta rolled a boulder down toward him, becoming badly infected. Sickness, aging, injury, and death, Culadasa argues, were always going to be part of life, and awakening did not alter how reality unfolds. What it alters is the observer's relationship to it. The person who has woken up stops measuring life against an internal sense of how things ought to be.

There is a useful consequence here for anyone who is still practicing. If you expect awakening to deliver a life without difficulty, you will be disappointed and may conclude you have failed. Culadasa's version is more demanding and, in its way, more hopeful. Life, he says, "gives us only the challenges that we have the potential to deal with." The job, the aging parents, and the financial strain do not disappear. They are simply seen as the material of the path rather than an interruption of it.

Why did Buddhism separate the monk from the marketplace?

Culadasa calls the relationship between Buddhism and lay life "something of a conundrum." The Buddha, as he describes it, encouraged people to give up the worldly life and become homeless wanderers. Even during the Buddha's lifetime, though, those wanderers began to settle. Places were built for them to stay and spend their rains retreats, and over time a near-complete separation took hold: those who fully embraced the dharma became monastics, and withdrawal from the world became strongly entrenched in most schools of Buddhism, to a greater or lesser degree.

His most interesting argument comes from the traditional pictures. In the ox-herding and elephant-taming sequences that he discusses in The Mind Illuminated, the final images do not end in the forest. In the elephant series, the animal is turned around, and the monk, astride it, holds the sword of wisdom and cuts through ignorance (Culadasa, video at 5:27). The last image in the ox-herding sequence is a return to the marketplace. He notes that this return appears in traditional Buddhism from two very different lineages, Tibetan and Chinese Chan, and yet it has never become firmly established in the way people understand the path.

His conclusion is blunt. The image of the forest recluse, the sage in a mountain cave, or the person retired into a monastery after awakening is, in his view, a case of arrested spiritual development. "To continue the process," he says, "it's necessary to rejoin the world that it was necessary to withdraw from," perhaps for a period, in order to accomplish this. He is careful to add that there is never a completion of the process. The point is not that the forest is wrong. The point is that the forest is a stage, not a destination.

What did the lay path gain that monastic life did not?

Culadasa describes his own teacher as recognizing something that was becoming more obvious to many people and that suited Buddhism's arrival in the West: there is a place for Buddhism in lay life "other than supporting monasteries, other than trying to accumulate enough merit to be reborn to become a monk." He recounts a conversation with the Tibetan lama Geshe Dorje, who agreed that the path of the lay practitioner was harder but more powerful. "It's more powerful," Culadasa says Geshe Dorje put it, adding that he sees an implicit recognition of this in the Vajrayana (Culadasa, video at 7:22).

The phrase "more challenging but ultimately more powerful" is the hinge of the episode. A monastic life removes many of the frictions a householder must work through: money, family conflict, the demands of a job, the pull of relationships. Those frictions are not incidental to the lay path. They are the practice. A layperson who learns to stay present while a child is in crisis or a deadline is looming is training the same faculties a monk trains in silence, only under heavier load.

Did Culadasa ever go fully monastic?

He did not take the full monastic route, though he came close in one respect. He spent almost two years as a Catholic seminarian. "I tried it out," he indicates, and that trial is itself revealing of his larger approach (Culadasa, video at 7:22 onward). The interviewer frames the most common concern among people who write to ask about his path: a wish to keep working, a family to support, and the recognition that "going off and leaving my family behind is neither desirable nor possible" (interviewer, video at 9:19). Culadasa's answer to that concern runs through the whole episode. The practice is not the thing you do instead of your life. It is the way you live the life you have.

How did a difficult childhood shape the path?

The second half of the episode turns to Culadasa's early years, and it is the part most listeners will remember. He describes the first fourteen years of his life as "pretty sequestered." He did not attend school with any consistency, did not become socialized, and did not become part of a peer group. He describes physical and psychological abuse in the home and unhealthy relationships between himself, his parents, and his siblings, with consequences that were severe for him and his brother and two sisters.

The year between his fourteenth and fifteenth birthdays, he says, was probably the most extremely traumatic of his life (Culadasa, video at 11:16). He left home that summer and spent roughly three years bouncing between situations, not entirely on the streets but close enough that he calls himself a runaway. As he approached eighteen, he looked around at the people whose lifestyle he had been sharing and concluded it was not what he wanted for himself (Culadasa, video at 12:14).

There was a second layer to this. He describes having been led to hold a belief about the way things were in the world that he would frankly call psychotic, and he portrays himself as "Remus and Romulus raised by wolves," out of step with ordinary human interaction. Living among people at the bottom of society made that gap impossible to ignore. "One of the things that came out of that," he says, was a powerful recognition that what he had believed to be the way things are was totally deluded (Culadasa, video at 13:16). For a student of meditation, that is a striking origin. Much of the work that follows in Buddhist practice is precisely the work of noticing that one's model of reality is not reality.

What does this mean for the layperson practicing today?

Taken together, the episode offers a coherent picture. Awakening is not an exit from difficulty, but a changed relationship to it. The traditional separation of monk and householder reflects historical arrangements more than the full shape of the path, and the traditional pictures themselves point back toward the marketplace. The lay path is harder, and for that reason, Culadasa suggests, it carries a particular kind of power. And the person who finds the path may have arrived with wounds that make the ordinary world feel unreal, which means the return to that world is not only a spiritual task but a human one.

Culadasa does not offer a formula, and he is careful not to romanticize his own story. What he offers is a frame: notice the expectations you bring, recognize the challenges life actually presents, and treat your daily obligations as the arena in which the practice is tested. That frame will not suit every reader, but it answers the Reddit-style question that opened the conversation with more than reassurance.

Where to go from here

If this episode raised questions about your own path, start with the source Culadasa points to most often. The Mind Illuminated is, in the publisher's description, a step-by-step guide that combines traditional Buddhist teachings with research in cognitive psychology and neuroscience, written for practitioners at every stage. Culadasa also hosts regular Q&A sessions on his Patreon, where lay students bring the kinds of questions raised in this episode. Listen to the rest of the "My Journey" series in order, because the lay-practitioner theme in this first installment sets up the later material on his practice and teaching. And test the ideas where they count: in the next difficult conversation at work or at home, ask whether you are seeing the situation as it is or as you believe it ought to be.

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Transcript

[0:09] uh

[0:09] specifically about

[0:13] being a layperson and living in the

[0:15] world yes

[0:17] well i'll go back to one of the

[0:21] first things that you said the

[0:24] expectations about

[0:27] how things change after awakening

[0:34] there what people expect

[0:41] is both true

[0:44] and false because uh

[0:49] of the fundamental

[0:53] misperception of the nature of

[0:57] of everything i don't know the way this

[1:00] is

[1:01] that awakening is all about after

[1:04] awakening life

[1:06] is seen to be as good

[1:10] as it always was uh it's just that

[1:13] before you didn't recognize that it was

[1:15] good

[1:16] life still has just as many obstacles

[1:20] as it ever did perhaps more

[1:24] it does seem you know it's a bit of a

[1:28] cliche but there's some real truth in it

[1:30] that

[1:31] uh life or the universe or whatever you

[1:34] want to think however you want to think

[1:35] about it

[1:37] gives us only gives us the challenges

[1:40] that we have the potential

[1:41] to deal with so

[1:44] it's more the recognition that life is

[1:47] and always has been

[1:50] good in a more ultimate sense that it's

[1:53] really unfolding as it should

[1:56] uh and

[2:00] you know in terms of the obstacles the

[2:03] buddha himself made this clear

[2:05] that no matter what you're going to age

[2:09] he aged you're going to be subject to

[2:12] injury

[2:12] and illness he was subject to injury and

[2:15] illness

[2:17] there's many references in the suit as

[2:20] to

[2:21] the physical ailments that he suffered

[2:24] as he

[2:24] got older injuries that he sustained

[2:28] one in particular when his cousin

[2:31] devadatta

[2:32] had rolled the boulder down and

[2:34] lacerated his foot and became

[2:37] obviously infected clearly

[2:41] problematic but sickness aging

[2:44] injury and ultimately death are always a

[2:47] part

[2:47] of life and i think what the buddha was

[2:50] pointing to

[2:50] in that is that that life

[2:54] was always going to be that way that

[2:58] being awakening isn't going to change

[3:01] uh the way that the way that

[3:05] reality unfolds

[3:09] it changes our perception of it

[3:12] in such a way that maybe the best way

[3:15] for

[3:17] a layperson

[3:20] looking at you know what can i

[3:23] expect from this

[3:30] they might develop expectations that are

[3:33] unrealistic

[3:34] but their basic expectation

[3:39] is actually fulfilled there are no fewer

[3:42] challenges in life

[3:44] but one no longer sees them

[3:48] from the vantage point of i know better

[3:51] how things should be than where they are

[3:55] right for a lay person

[4:03] this is this is one of the things that

[4:05] is something of a

[4:07] conundrum in buddhism because

[4:12] with the buddha he was encouraging

[4:16] people

[4:16] to give up the worldly life and become

[4:19] homeless wanderers

[4:21] but even during his life those

[4:24] wonders became more settled places were

[4:28] built for them to

[4:29] stay spend their brains retreats and

[4:32] things like that

[4:35] eventually there was this complete

[4:38] separation of those who

[4:42] fully embraced the dharma as monastics

[4:46] and complete withdrawal from the world

[4:48] and this became strongly entrenched

[4:50] in most most schools of buddhism

[4:54] to a greater or lesser degree and there

[4:56] are variations of course

[4:58] as with everything but um

[5:01] uh now an

[5:04] interesting thing if you look at the

[5:06] elephant diagram that i used in the mind

[5:09] eliminated

[5:10] and likewise if you look at the hoof

[5:13] prince of the ox

[5:14] which is uh very similar

[5:18] in at the very last

[5:22] thing you see in the elephant diagram

[5:25] is the elephant is now going back the

[5:27] other way

[5:28] the monk is astride the elephant he's

[5:31] holding the sword of wisdom and he's

[5:34] cutting through

[5:36] the cutting through using that wisdom to

[5:39] cut

[5:40] through ignorance the last image

[5:43] in the hoof prints diagram

[5:46] is a return to the marketplace there is

[5:50] this

[5:50] acknowledgement that has been there in

[5:53] traditional buddhism

[5:54] from two very disparate traditions that

[5:58] one is tibetan and the other is uh is uh

[6:02] well it's a chinese chan but also the

[6:06] then

[6:08] and in both of them then there is an

[6:11] acknowledgement

[6:12] of this return to the marketplace that

[6:15] seems not to have ever become

[6:18] firmly established in people's

[6:20] understanding

[6:22] i on the other hand feel like

[6:25] there could be no other outcome and

[6:29] the image of the forest recluse

[6:33] or the sage in a mountain cave

[6:37] or just simply somebody retired into a

[6:40] monastery

[6:42] after awakening that is actually a case

[6:46] of

[6:46] arrested spiritual development

[6:51] to complete the process uh well no let

[6:54] me take that back

[6:56] it's not as though there's ever a

[6:57] completion of the process but to

[6:59] continue the process

[7:02] it's necessary to rejoin

[7:06] the world that it was necessary to

[7:08] withdraw from perhaps for a period

[7:10] in order to accomplish this

[7:13] [Music]

[7:15] and i think what my teacher

[7:18] recognized and something that was

[7:21] becoming

[7:22] more obvious to many people and

[7:25] was very appropriate for buddhism coming

[7:28] to the west

[7:29] was this recognition that

[7:34] that there was a place for buddhism in

[7:37] lay life other than supporting

[7:39] monasteries other than trying to

[7:41] quote accumulate enough merit to be

[7:44] reborn to become a monk

[7:47] you know and become awakened

[7:53] and in a conversation with uh

[7:56] high tibetan llama geshe dorje

[8:01] we discussed this very thing and

[8:04] he agreed that the uh the past

[8:07] of the lay practitioner was more

[8:10] challenging

[8:11] but ultimately more powerful

[8:14] was the way that he put it it's more

[8:16] powerful and i think there's an implicit

[8:18] recognition

[8:20] of that in the vajrayana yeah

[8:25] yeah so

[8:30] well let's move on from that and and

[8:31] look at exactly how you've practiced

[8:33] because you didn't

[8:35] i mean you did not go and live in a

[8:36] monastery i mean you you did seek out

[8:38] um a contemplative life at uh

[8:42] as you as you retired as i understand it

[8:44] but

[8:45] um you never fully went monastic

[8:48] as they say uh you didn't become

[8:51] entirely become a monk

[8:52] um no i i did spend almost two years

[8:57] as a catholic seminarian yeah which

[9:00] was a very significant movement in that

[9:04] direction

[9:05] yeah i would say i tried it out

[9:09] and i think that that's the thing on if

[9:11] i look at the the you know the the

[9:12] reddit community where people post a lot

[9:14] of questions about

[9:16] their experiences with tmi and and in

[9:18] general

[9:19] i mean one of the big questions comes up

[9:21] comes up as like i

[9:22] like my job i want to keep working i

[9:24] have a family that i want to support

[9:27] you know going off and leaving my family

[9:29] behind is neither

[9:30] desirable nor um nor possible

[9:34] so i suppose what i want to ask you then

[9:37] is um

[9:38] let's start off by looking at uh your

[9:41] life growing up

[9:42] how did you go from what was your

[9:44] childhood like what was your

[9:46] life like and and how did you go from

[9:49] that into

[9:49] buddhism and and becoming chula dasa

[9:53] sort of

[9:54] give me the the david copperfield i was

[9:56] born i grew up

[9:58] in as much detail as do you think it is

[10:00] useful for for people to know

[10:04] maybe i should begin by uh

[10:07] just sort of a

[10:10] broad overview and a few

[10:14] sweeping strokes so yeah

[10:17] the first 15 years of my life

[10:21] uh well the first 14 years of my life i

[10:25] should say

[10:26] were pretty sequestered

[10:29] it was a very unusual family situation

[10:33] [Music]

[10:35] i didn't attend school

[10:38] with any kind of consistency i never

[10:40] really became socialized

[10:42] never became part of a peer group i was

[10:46] there was a lot of physical and

[10:49] psychological abuse

[10:51] in my childhood very

[10:55] very unhealthy relationships between

[10:58] myself my parents and my siblings

[11:01] had had really severe

[11:06] consequences for for myself

[11:09] and my brother and two sisters

[11:13] i left home like my 15th

[11:16] let me between my 14th and 15th

[11:19] birthdays

[11:20] uh was probably the most

[11:24] extremely traumatic year of my entire

[11:27] life

[11:28] i left home in the summer of my 15th

[11:32] birthday

[11:33] and i basically lived on the streets

[11:37] well over a period of about three years

[11:40] not

[11:41] entirely on the streets but bouncing

[11:43] around between

[11:45] different situations that were very much

[11:47] you know i

[11:48] i was i was

[11:52] a runaway from home um

[11:58] as i approached my 18th birthday

[12:03] i looked around me at people whose

[12:06] lifestyle i had been sharing over the

[12:08] previous three years

[12:10] [Music]

[12:12] and i came to the conclusion that this

[12:14] isn't what i wanted for myself

[12:18] there was another very major thing that

[12:22] was a factor in this you know i can go

[12:24] into

[12:25] detail about this later but the nature

[12:28] of

[12:29] the first that first 14 years of my life

[12:32] was that i had been

[12:36] led to hold

[12:39] a belief about the way things were in

[12:42] the world

[12:44] that i think would be frankly described

[12:47] as psychotic

[12:51] i was a bit of a you know

[12:55] uh remus and romulus raised by wolves

[12:58] totally out of touch with normal human

[13:02] interactions in reality what made

[13:05] what made that final year so traumatic

[13:08] for me was

[13:09] being thrust into a situation where that

[13:12] became

[13:12] so very very evident

[13:16] one of the things that came out of that

[13:18] was a powerful

[13:20] powerful recognition

[13:23] that what i had believed to be the way

[13:27] things

[13:27] are was totally

[13:31] deluded now you'll recognize

[13:34] something that's certainly yeah right i

[13:37] had no

[13:38] i had no access at all to the framework

[13:40] that i do now to understand that in

[13:43] but that was a rather profound

[13:45] realization that circumstances had

[13:48] driven me towards so i became

[13:53] a totally driven seeker after the truth

[13:56] if i'd been living in this delusional

[13:58] life i had to find out what was true

[14:00] what was real the first thing i had to

[14:02] do was get out of my family environment

[14:05] and i began to search for truth in

[14:10] in religion and philosophy and science

[14:13] these were the places where i had hoped

[14:14] to find answers

[14:18] but anyway back to the broad strokes

[14:22] sweeping strokes so

[14:25] not not only

[14:29] did i recognize that i did not want to

[14:33] continue to be part

[14:34] of the life that i had been living

[14:38] since i left home but

[14:42] as a part of the search i'd really come

[14:45] to the profound conclusion

[14:47] that no one really knew what

[14:51] this was all about

[14:54] and that if i was going to find out

[14:57] i was going to have to find out on my

[14:59] own and i wasn't going to be able to do

[15:01] it

[15:02] as as a homeless homeless person

[15:05] living on the fringes of society right

[15:10] so i said about

[15:14] on a totally unrealistic mission

[15:17] to pull myself out of that and to

[15:21] have a place in the world from which i

[15:24] could

[15:25] pursue these ends

[15:31] it's an interesting thing i don't know

[15:32] if you're familiar with gerta's

[15:37] short dissertation on commitment

[15:44] well i just happen to have that

[15:47] open somewhere here if i can find it i

[15:49] can just read it to you because

[15:51] it's useful it has defined so much

[15:55] of of my life indeed

[15:58] that i'll

[16:03] okay let me sorry by who did you say

[16:06] goethe yeah

[16:09] uh as in the the german poets

[16:13] uh writer goethe g-o-e-t-h-e

[16:16] yes that's right okay

[16:19] oh my goodness of course when i want to

[16:21] find something i've read his faults

[16:24] but that's that's about it

[16:29] well it's actually a poem a poem okay

[16:33] so very quickly until one is committed

[16:38] there is hesitancy

[16:40] the chance to draw back always

[16:42] ineffectiveness

[16:43] concerning acts of initiative and

[16:45] creation

[16:46] there is one elementary truth the

[16:49] ignorance of which

[16:50] kills countless ideas and splendid plans

[16:54] that the moment one definitely commits

[16:57] oneself

[16:58] then providence moves to all sorts of

[17:02] things

[17:03] occur to help one that would never

[17:05] otherwise have occurred

[17:07] a whole stream of events issues from the

[17:10] decision

[17:11] raising in one's favor all manner of

[17:14] unforeseen events

[17:15] and meetings and material assistance

[17:18] which no man could have dreamt

[17:20] would have come his way whatever you can

[17:23] do

[17:24] or dream you can begin it oldness has

[17:28] genius power and magic in it

[17:31] begin it now so

[17:34] i discovered that a few years

[17:37] after uh the

[17:42] series of just basically miracles that

[17:45] allowed me to go from being a homeless

[17:48] adolescent

[17:49] to who had never attended high school

[17:53] much less graduated

[17:55] [Music]

[17:56] and who eventually uh

[17:59] gotta got a phd had a successful

[18:04] professional career and a fulfilling

[18:06] spiritual life

[18:10] and i felt like gerda had touched on

[18:14] something that was

[18:15] incredibly true that i had had the good

[18:18] fortune

[18:19] that in the unfolding

[18:23] of reality to be directed into the

[18:26] discovery of that

[18:28] quite by accident

[18:31] anyway so

[18:35] i continued my search being able to get

[18:38] into university was an incredible

[18:40] experience for me i wanted to learn

[18:43] everything there was

[18:44] about everything my

[18:47] previous excursions into

[18:51] philosophy when i was trying to stay off

[18:54] the cold streets in the in the winter

[18:58] in the county library

[19:03] i was able to pursue those more deeply

[19:06] in the academic environment

[19:10] science i took every science course that

[19:14] i was

[19:14] eligible to get into and

[19:18] it was it was wonderful because

[19:21] the university i attended was also a

[19:24] seminary

[19:26] and i had during my time on the streets

[19:30] i

[19:31] i had directed my attention towards

[19:34] the spiritual side of things i knew

[19:36] nothing other than

[19:38] christianity i knew that the catholic

[19:42] church

[19:42] was essentially what persisted today

[19:46] from the original church

[19:47] so i undertook

[19:51] studies and catholicism

[19:54] then when the opportunity was there

[19:56] years later

[19:58] i became a seminarian for almost two

[20:00] years

[20:03] that didn't work out

[20:07] so you know i moved on from

[20:11] there uh i

[20:14] became very much a part

[20:18] of the uh of the hippie generation of

[20:22] that time

[20:23] uh experimented with well i went far

[20:26] beyond experimenting i would say

[20:28] with many different psychoactive

[20:29] substances

[20:31] and this was tremendously enhancing

[20:34] to the growing understanding that i had

[20:37] been developing over the years

[20:40] and it was an appropriate place place

[20:41] for me to

[20:43] arrive at following my disenchantment

[20:45] with uh

[20:47] with what the

[20:50] catholic priesthood had to offer

[20:53] um what i realized out of all of that

[20:56] though was

[20:59] that while it opened the gates of

[21:03] doors of perception very much so

[21:06] and provided a lot of understanding it

[21:08] did so in a very

[21:10] unreliable manner that's when i became

[21:13] aware that there were

[21:14] mystical traditions both western and

[21:17] eastern

[21:18] where exactly these kinds of

[21:22] realizations and discoveries were being

[21:24] cultivated

[21:26] uh in a much much more

[21:29] consistent manner and so i became

[21:32] interested in that

[21:33] and but i didn't really know how to

[21:35] pursue it it wasn't something that was

[21:38] available where i lived at that

[21:40] particular

[21:41] time in history i did though after a few

[21:44] years

[21:45] when it during my phd studies

[21:49] encounter buddhist teachings

[21:53] and i quickly recognized that

[21:56] this at least promised more of what i

[21:59] had been looking for

[22:01] than anything that i had looked into

[22:03] before

[22:04] so my life after that was pretty much on

[22:06] the track two parallel tracks of science

[22:09] and buddhism and buddhist practice

[22:12] my life went through many other

[22:16] convolutions after that nothing as

[22:18] extreme as

[22:19] what the first uh

[22:23] two and a half decades of my life have

[22:26] been

[22:30] and yeah i think that gives you sort of

[22:34] a broad broad overview yeah so there are

[22:38] a number of things there that i think

[22:39] would be

[22:40] uh worth going into some detail on

[22:43] and you and i did discuss before the

[22:45] time that uh

[22:46] you know we we would speak in in uh

[22:50] more detail than uh you might have done

[22:54] before in one sort of one interview

[22:56] because you have spoken in detail about

[22:58] certain things

[22:59] um to guru viking and michael taft and

[23:02] so forth

[23:04] what i was saying to you when we pause

[23:06] the recording to find the poem which was

[23:08] really

[23:09] lovely i mean i think that's something

[23:11] that every

[23:12] uh dharma practitioner can hold close to

[23:15] their to their heart

[23:17] because it does take a significant

[23:19] commitment this

[23:21] this path um but what we talked about

[23:25] is um that you know people who are

[23:28] generally happy

[23:29] with their lives um and

[23:33] feel successful and and so forth

[23:36] um are not typically the kinds of people

[23:40] who seek out meditation and

[23:43] dharma training or and for most people i

[23:46] think the start particularly here in the

[23:47] west is

[23:48] is with meditation you know we come to

[23:51] the dharma and we come to meditation

[23:53] from pain and suffering um and in order

[23:56] to relieve that and

[23:57] there's a large which i think will

[23:59] something we'll address a little bit

[24:01] later

[24:02] in one of the future recordings but um

[24:06] you know there's a large number of

[24:08] people who deal with

[24:09] uh mental illness such as depression

[24:12] anxiety

[24:14] substance use all sorts of things that

[24:16] they

[24:18] that they want help with and this

[24:21] presents a very

[24:22] uh promising and enticing sort of thing

[24:25] and particularly trauma you know that's

[24:27] something that does come up a lot

[24:29] would would you would you be able to

[24:32] talk to us a little bit about some of

[24:33] the specific

[24:34] um experiences you had growing up and

[24:38] how that affected you

[24:39] and how that uh led to you eventually

[24:42] leaving home and

[24:43] and then we'll talk a little bit about

[24:45] the seminary

[24:46] uh how that was and then your time at

[24:48] university because i know

[24:50] uh at some stage you mentioned you were

[24:52] you were considered

[24:53] the resident trip doctor and and that

[24:56] sort of thing

[24:57] and then how you uh how your academic

[25:00] life went

[25:00] and um uh why you left that

[25:04] you know academia and research and then

[25:08] talking a little bit about about how you

[25:10] got into

[25:11] really studying uh the dharma and

[25:14] making progress with that and then uh

[25:16] your awakening and all of that so we'll

[25:18] take the

[25:19] the real narrative arc here as if we are

[25:21] watching a movie

[25:23] uh so go for it all right

[25:27] well the my childhood was

[25:32] traumatic there was a physical abuse

[25:35] aspect to it

[25:37] um i was from

[25:43] almost as early as as

[25:47] i can remember in my relationship with

[25:50] my father

[25:52] uh severely beaten and with increasing

[25:56] frequency i think this

[25:57] probably started about

[26:00] oh maybe around

[26:04] age three or four and the older i got

[26:08] the the more severe that physical abuse

[26:11] aspect became

[26:13] at the same time my mother

[26:16] was very inappropriately attached

[26:20] and dependent upon me emotionally

[26:25] uh the one result of that was that

[26:29] she kept me out of school as much as

[26:32] possible

[26:35] and once she had set that process in

[26:37] motion

[26:39] subsequent attempts by

[26:42] school and other authorities and my

[26:45] father

[26:46] to try to change that i was very

[26:48] resistant to

[26:50] because for me

[26:53] being fussed into the

[26:56] school environment was an extremely

[27:00] unpleasant uh and

[27:04] your experience my mother was more than

[27:07] happy

[27:09] to keep me sequestered in her presence

[27:11] fulfilling her needs

[27:15] and i suppose there were so many

[27:19] things that she aspired to that that

[27:22] she maybe hoped that she could

[27:25] experience vicariously through me

[27:29] as you know looking back on this from a

[27:32] later perspective

[27:34] with regard to my father

[27:38] he was suffering very severe

[27:42] ptsd what would be recognized now as

[27:44] ptsd

[27:46] there wasn't at the time he had

[27:50] within a month of his having married my

[27:53] mother

[27:54] uh he met her after he'd already

[27:57] actually enlisted in the us army during

[27:59] world war ii

[28:02] within about a month after his getting

[28:04] married

[28:06] he was shipped out to europe he was

[28:08] involved

[28:09] in some of the most

[28:12] extreme and bitterest fighting

[28:16] across france and eventually

[28:19] into germany the closer

[28:23] the allied forces came to the german

[28:26] border

[28:27] the more desperate the fighting became

[28:31] and that's that's what my father arrived

[28:33] in the middle of

[28:35] wow and then because he

[28:38] spoke german and i don't know what other

[28:40] reasons led to it

[28:42] rather than being allowed to return home

[28:45] when when the fighting was actually over

[28:47] when the war ended

[28:50] they kept him there for um

[28:53] i don't know another year or so as a

[28:56] part of the occupation forces

[28:59] and that in itself i can see was

[29:02] enormously traumatic

[29:03] he returned you know when he left

[29:07] my mother was pregnant they'd only been

[29:09] married less than a month

[29:11] when he came back you know i was

[29:15] i was a toddler and i my mother's

[29:18] life revolved around

[29:22] her infant child and her infant child

[29:25] knew nothing else

[29:26] but this i think for my father

[29:32] i'm sure as with most soldiers in combat

[29:35] you know the fact that he had someone at

[29:39] home to return to

[29:40] but when he did return in a traumatized

[29:43] state

[29:43] here she was totally involved with

[29:46] someone else right

[29:48] and i think that his ptsd

[29:54] you know it involved a huge amount of

[29:56] anger

[29:57] resist resentment frustration

[30:00] really directed at all kinds of other

[30:02] things but

[30:04] was unable to channel it in any

[30:07] healthy ways and so it's just a

[30:10] confluence of

[30:11] circumstances i became the target for

[30:13] that

[30:15] but anyway the physical abuse was real

[30:18] and

[30:18] continued and my relationship with my

[30:20] father

[30:21] was extremely difficult my mother

[30:25] on the other hand she had a lot of

[30:28] psychological problems that were not

[30:30] realized

[30:31] recognized by anyone else she was

[30:34] an absolutely brilliant woman and very

[30:37] talented

[30:41] but subsequent to my leaving home she

[30:43] had

[30:44] a complete psychotic break and

[30:47] a lot of her pre-existing

[30:50] psychiatric problems became evident she

[30:53] was ended up being diagnosed with

[30:56] several very severe personality

[30:58] disorders

[31:03] basically she

[31:06] was generating her own reality

[31:09] as i look at it now as the only way that

[31:13] she could cope

[31:15] um with life with the circumstances she

[31:18] found herself in and

[31:22] i had filled an enormous need from the

[31:25] time of my birth and she continued to

[31:27] depend on me

[31:28] for that

[31:31] and the only thing that i knew about the

[31:34] world

[31:35] people human relationships was a

[31:37] distorted version

[31:38] that i got from my mother who as i say

[31:42] i mean her view of the world was

[31:46] it did fit the definition of a psychotic

[31:49] worldview

[31:50] but it was not in the form that

[31:52] everybody else would say

[31:54] oh there's something really seriously

[31:55] wrong with that person

[31:57] it was a sort that that uh

[32:01] could remain camouflaged and people

[32:04] close enough to realize that there was

[32:05] something wrong

[32:06] you know like my father for example and

[32:10] maybe some family members and things

[32:11] like that

[32:13] either didn't want to or unable to

[32:16] to accept that

[32:20] and uh try to do anything about it until

[32:22] my leaving home

[32:24] produced a total collapse in here and of

[32:26] course back then people as you said

[32:28] didn't know about things like

[32:29] ptsd it wasn't well recognized and they

[32:32] didn't know about

[32:33] uh schizotype or personality disorders

[32:36] and

[32:36] and borderline personality disorders and

[32:40] things like that i mean we've come so

[32:41] far

[32:42] and even if people did know about mental

[32:45] illness people didn't talk about it

[32:47] because there was such a you know such a

[32:49] tremendous stigma about these things

[32:52] that's true yes and and particularly

[32:56] children growing up

[32:57] in in in these kinds of environments of

[33:01] very affected so that that all makes

[33:04] sense to me

[33:07] well i certainly was

[33:10] i during my childhood like i say had

[33:14] very very little exposure to anything

[33:17] outside of my home

[33:19] my attendance at school you know i if

[33:22] if there was a week that i actually

[33:24] attended school for

[33:26] three days i think it was fairly unusual

[33:29] uh there were all kinds of things that

[33:31] went on in association with that

[33:33] i won't go into here but

[33:37] the state of things was such at that

[33:39] time

[33:40] that this could happen i don't think

[33:43] in today's world

[33:47] that could have happened but in the

[33:48] 1950s

[33:50] like late 40s 1950s it could

[33:53] and it did

[33:57] so like i say i

[34:00] the only world i knew was my mother's

[34:03] world

[34:04] and my limited exposure to anything else

[34:08] well

[34:09] i when i attended first grade

[34:15] and once again i was rarely in

[34:17] attendance but my first grade teacher

[34:21] very much favored me this created

[34:23] resentment i

[34:25] remember in a relatively small

[34:29] community within a small city

[34:32] okay and so

[34:37] there's a lot of whoever it was that

[34:41] you lived in the same area with you

[34:43] would go to school with

[34:44] right yeah see each other at the

[34:48] shopping center and

[34:50] with the shops

[34:53] neighbors live down the street across

[34:55] the street around the corner

[34:58] so my first grade teacher

[35:02] favored me i wasn't present enough to

[35:06] achieve any kind of integration with my

[35:10] school peer group i

[35:14] yeah i wasn't i i didn't attend school

[35:17] very much

[35:19] i as if i wouldn't

[35:22] already have been a kind of outsider i

[35:24] became

[35:25] even more of an outsider because all

[35:27] these other six-year-olds

[35:29] you know they didn't like the fact that

[35:31] that somebody who wasn't even

[35:33] participating in the expected way

[35:37] was receiving all this favor in second

[35:40] grade

[35:42] it was the same group of people the same

[35:45] circumstances that i was coming from

[35:48] and i had a different teacher who was

[35:51] just

[35:53] totally the opposite and

[35:57] she essentially fed the resentment

[36:00] that had already developed uh

[36:03] during first degree right yeah yeah

[36:08] and i became even more alienated

[36:11] and also the whole the whole school

[36:15] situation

[36:16] became very unpleasant for me

[36:20] in a way that i hadn't the year before

[36:24] now small school

[36:27] who should turn out to be my third grade

[36:29] teacher

[36:30] but the same teacher from first grade

[36:35] interesting somebody couldn't have

[36:38] orchestrated

[36:39] the system uh more

[36:42] appropriately to have

[36:46] produced as much alienation as possible

[36:48] between

[36:49] the school school system

[36:52] by peer group right because in

[36:55] attachment terms we would say you really

[36:57] had very little

[36:58] uh security to attack the moment that

[37:01] you attached

[37:02] to people then uh you know it was then

[37:04] taken away from you and then brought

[37:06] back and so that

[37:07] creates a great deal of of uncertainty

[37:09] and

[37:10] and distrust with people right

[37:18] so that that gives you a bit of a

[37:21] window into some of the psychological

[37:26] processes that were taking place in my

[37:28] early childhood development

[37:33] my brother was born when i was about

[37:36] three years old

[37:37] and my father gave him

[37:41] his name identified with him totally

[37:44] as his son

[37:48] my brother and i shared a bedroom and as

[37:50] he got older

[37:51] he freely helped himself to anything

[37:55] that was mine

[37:57] if i'd ever tried to establish any kind

[38:00] of boundary

[38:03] uh with my younger brother

[38:07] uh he would just be all daddy and i'd

[38:10] have another beating coming up

[38:12] if he was the chosen one he could do no

[38:14] wrong

[38:15] the things he did were so outrageous i

[38:18] was

[38:19] the good little boy and i was the one

[38:21] that was always being punished

[38:23] i mean right there with something that

[38:26] was

[38:26] you know i can look back on it and say

[38:29] wow

[38:31] that must have really twisted me around

[38:34] sure

[38:35] i mean and experiencing it it was just

[38:38] the way things are

[38:39] yeah i had nothing to compare it to

[38:42] right you didn't know any better you

[38:43] didn't know that people

[38:45] yeah this is what so often what kids

[38:46] report is they go well i just thought

[38:48] this is how every

[38:49] all children live like this is normal

[38:52] yeah

[38:54] yeah i look look back on it and see it

[38:56] just

[38:57] so differently and and shake my head you

[39:00] know

[39:00] yeah so

[39:07] this one of the thing one of the

[39:10] dynamics too that i

[39:12] i think was really difficult for me as a

[39:15] child

[39:16] my mother was so dependent upon me

[39:19] to meet her needs of course this was

[39:21] very unhealthy

[39:23] this would have the effect it had on her

[39:27] relationship with my father

[39:29] and the fact that that had on my father

[39:32] of course

[39:32] i can understand now the pain

[39:35] that that must have caused him and

[39:40] just made me increasingly the

[39:44] object of of his his anger and his

[39:48] resent

[39:54] well let's just jump ahead to this when

[39:57] i was 14 years old

[39:59] uh my father was doing well enough he

[40:01] was a

[40:02] research chemist he's quite successful

[40:05] uh he was working in private industry

[40:08] and

[40:09] you know so he was he was rewarded in

[40:13] ways that an academic would not have

[40:15] been

[40:18] so when he was

[40:21] able now both he and my mother had grown

[40:23] up during the great depression

[40:25] so they were extremely frugal and

[40:27] careful with money

[40:29] but when my father felt that within his

[40:32] frugality he could afford to

[40:35] they moved to a rural community

[40:39] that he could commute from

[40:42] it was in the sort of transition area

[40:46] between

[40:47] the bayou country and the pine forests

[40:51] of texas a very beautiful place

[40:55] huge majestic trees spanish moss hanging

[40:58] down

[40:59] you know all these sorts of things

[41:02] compared to the

[41:04] horrible industrial environment of the

[41:07] of the

[41:08] city where my father worked and where we

[41:09] lived for

[41:11] a number of years

[41:15] so when i was 14

[41:19] i was in a completely new community

[41:22] not only that there was

[41:25] absolutely zero tolerance for me

[41:28] not you know they they received my

[41:30] school records

[41:32] they knew they knew about all the things

[41:35] that had happened

[41:36] from grade six to grade eight my

[41:39] minimalist uh to nothing attendance

[41:43] the fact that i was still able to i mean

[41:45] i was a straight a student all the way

[41:47] through elementary

[41:48] and junior high school

[41:52] but i just never attended classes it was

[41:55] a constant

[41:56] struggle uh the school

[41:59] and my father trying to change things

[42:02] and my mother

[42:03] and i doing everything we could to

[42:05] prevent that i mean

[42:06] when my father would insist that i leave

[42:09] to go to school and he was not going to

[42:11] go to work until

[42:12] he knew that i was was going away

[42:16] except i would not go into the school

[42:18] i'd go off and i'd hide

[42:20] and the school would call and my mother

[42:22] would freak out and

[42:23] you know i would show up after school

[42:25] was supposed to be out

[42:27] and she would be totally distraught and

[42:30] that school would call my father and oh

[42:33] it just it went on and on

[42:36] anyway when i moved when we moved to

[42:38] this rural community

[42:41] they would have none of this and it was

[42:44] made clear to me

[42:45] that you know when i registered for the

[42:47] school here it was a four-year high

[42:49] school

[42:50] i was going into as a freshman into this

[42:52] high school

[42:54] and i was going to maintain an expected

[42:57] level of attendance

[42:59] or else

[43:03] that was the most painful year of my

[43:04] life because

[43:07] of course i was 14 years old

[43:11] for an adolescent acceptance uh

[43:14] is is the most crucial thing in the

[43:16] world right

[43:18] but i was i was a total anomaly anyway

[43:23] i was this was people that had grown up

[43:26] together

[43:27] and knew each other well and i was in

[43:30] every possible way the new kid in town

[43:33] but with a background that was totally

[43:36] incomprehensible to

[43:38] to them and i was thrust more or less

[43:42] full time into a world that was totally

[43:43] incomprehensible to me

[43:49] talking to other students trying to

[43:52] fit in trying to speak up

[43:56] and join in conversations the words that

[43:58] came out of my mouth

[43:59] would elicit a reaction like oh my god

[44:02] what a weirdo

[44:05] and i was i was and and i

[44:08] was very aware of that from their

[44:10] reactions

[44:13] as if being a teenager in in high school

[44:15] isn't difficult enough

[44:16] i think you had everything stacked

[44:19] against you right every possible

[44:23] thing that that could be uh

[44:25] disadvantageous in that situation

[44:28] yeah it was a terribly traumatic thing

[44:32] uh i was through

[44:36] unpredictable circumstances thrown into

[44:38] contact

[44:39] with similar

[44:43] alienated outsiders mostly from a more

[44:48] what would it say uh

[44:52] well typical outsiders yeah more typical

[44:55] outsiders

[44:56] uh who are involved in a lot of things

[45:00] uh truancy

[45:04] vandalism theft a lot of rebellious

[45:07] extreme forms of adolescent rebellion

[45:11] and some of which extended i ended up

[45:14] with one friend who was

[45:16] from a mafia family yeah his total

[45:19] aspiration

[45:20] you know at at the age of 15

[45:24] 16 was you know he wanted to become a

[45:26] made man

[45:27] he wanted to uh

[45:31] he wanted to serve his first prison term

[45:33] because that was sort of a

[45:35] emblem of uh of accomplishment

[45:39] and and the circles that he'd grown up

[45:42] in

[45:42] so these really twisted values and

[45:45] things that people

[45:46] an alienation and all of that sort of

[45:50] thing

[45:51] right and i didn't

[45:54] that in itself didn't appeal to me but

[45:57] i was in this in the midst of this

[46:01] pain and this anger and this resentment

[46:05] and this rebellion against everything

[46:08] and they accepted you they accepted me

[46:12] and not only that they exemplified

[46:15] how you go about behaving in rebellion

[46:18] against

[46:19] society and parents and authority in

[46:22] general

[46:24] and that that sort of built me up to the

[46:28] point

[46:28] of making the break leaving

[46:32] leaving home leaving my family going out

[46:35] into the world on my own

[46:36] escaping the physical abuse the

[46:39] emotional

[46:40] abuse from my mother i mean i didn't

[46:43] know it was emotional abuse at that time

[46:45] but

[46:46] being both totally dependent upon her

[46:48] and her being totally dependent on me

[46:51] i was responsible on a daily basis for

[46:53] her happiness

[46:55] now i was realizing that my mother had

[46:57] essentially

[46:58] destroyed me by filling my head with all

[47:01] kinds of things that weren't true

[47:03] that that became so apparent in that

[47:06] year

[47:07] and i hated my father

[47:10] i hated my mother i hated everything

[47:14] uh the the pain uh the pain

[47:17] and the anger and resentment was just

[47:20] overwhelming

[47:21] and so well people use the word

[47:25] people use the word hate quite easily

[47:27] nowadays but

[47:28] from what you're telling me i can it

[47:31] seems to me like there was a real

[47:32] intense intensely passionate

[47:36] uh hatred going on there and resentment

[47:39] and

[47:39] and bewilderment and anger and all those

[47:42] things

[47:43] yes there was at the same time there was

[47:46] this enormous determination that

[47:49] i am going to make sense of this you

[47:51] know

[47:52] as i say i was coming to realize that

[47:55] nobody really

[47:56] knew what was going on everybody was

[47:58] living in their own reality

[48:01] and their

[48:04] apparent agreement about things was only

[48:08] that it was apparent

[48:09] yeah yeah and so i all of this was

[48:13] combined

[48:14] all of this anger and hatred and

[48:16] resentment and the pain that i had dirt

[48:19] was also combined with this

[48:22] determination that not only was i going

[48:24] to get myself out of the situation

[48:26] i was going to find the answers what is

[48:29] really

[48:30] all about because some people right

[48:32] would go and say

[48:33] well how i'm going to deal with all this

[48:36] anger is i'm going to become

[48:38] you know a gang member or a mafioso or

[48:40] whatever

[48:42] and then there are in my opinion much

[48:44] rarer individuals who say

[48:46] well i'm going to figure out a way out

[48:48] of this and lead a life

[48:50] like a good life uh figure out what that

[48:53] means what a good life

[48:54] and how to achieve it yeah and that's

[48:58] that's what the next three years were

[49:00] really about i mean i

[49:02] naturally got absorbed into that when i

[49:04] left home

[49:06] homeless kid on the streets i

[49:08] immediately drew the attention

[49:10] of the gangs the street gangs

[49:13] that whose turf i suddenly appeared on

[49:16] right

[49:17] well you've got it you've got to survive

[49:19] so and there you are on the

[49:21] on they turf and that they go well i've

[49:24] got to deal with this kid

[49:26] that's right and really thanks to my

[49:29] contact with

[49:30] with his name was eddie

[49:34] and these other people i

[49:37] basically had the language and the

[49:40] conceptual framework

[49:42] to manage to uh to manage to

[49:45] interact with us and so whereas i never

[49:48] became

[49:50] a firmly entrenched member of these

[49:52] gangs

[49:53] but rather what i think in

[49:56] modern terminology yeah i mean this

[49:59] preceded

[50:00] crips and bloods and things like that by

[50:03] a couple of decades maybe or at least i

[50:06] don't know

[50:07] i don't know the history of the crypts

[50:08] and bloods but it was sort of an

[50:09] evolution of

[50:11] street gangs that took place uh over

[50:13] that period of the 50s and 60s

[50:17] where were you then when when uh when

[50:19] you were out on the streets

[50:21] well i was in uh galveston texas texas

[50:24] okay okay so you're out on the streets

[50:27] but

[50:27] they've sort of accepted you uh as well

[50:30] like they're not they don't have an

[50:32] issue with you

[50:33] that's right i i fit right in and

[50:36] i knew the language and i was filled

[50:39] with enough anger

[50:40] uh and rebellion that uh you know

[50:44] uh i i could win my place

[50:48] you had your bona fides right my

[50:50] bonafides

[50:51] that's right i had my bonus lies

[50:54] but like i say i also

[50:58] well i had nowhere else to go really

[51:01] and i wasn't going to be accepted

[51:02] anywhere else and i wasn't aware of any

[51:04] other options anyway

[51:06] i just knew that i had i i had to leave

[51:09] the situation that i was in

[51:11] and this was the only thing that was

[51:12] offered to me

[51:16] some would argue that's not much of a

[51:17] step up but clearly for you it was a

[51:19] massive escape from

[51:24] and enormous freedom right like

[51:27] i'm really glad that i didn't buy into

[51:29] and get

[51:31] too involved with you know that

[51:34] lifestyle but rather remain on the

[51:37] periphery of it

[51:40] because the other part of me

[51:44] was not just about escape and

[51:48] rebellion and things like that but it

[51:50] was also about uh

[51:52] you know really wanting answers to

[51:55] things

[51:56] so you didn't want revenge on the world

[51:58] you wanted to figure things out

[52:01] i wanted to figure things out and

[52:04] so because i wasn't so totally committed

[52:07] there weren't the corresponding

[52:09] expectations

[52:11] of me and so i could drift in and out

[52:13] that's where

[52:14] i could spend all those hundreds i don't

[52:17] know

[52:17] maybe thousands of hours in the public

[52:20] library

[52:21] uh reading all kinds of things trying to

[52:24] find answers

[52:28] and so

[52:32] i was sort of i had not only separated

[52:34] myself

[52:36] from the situation that i'd grown up in

[52:38] i was trying

[52:39] i was actively trying to make sense of

[52:42] the world

[52:43] in a number of different ways i was

[52:45] really

[52:46] really interested in and trying to

[52:48] understand

[52:51] not just the segment of society that i

[52:54] found myself

[52:55] in

[52:58] but everything and everybody

[53:01] you know i different differing from

[53:05] my counterparts at the time

[53:10] i was interested in what it was like

[53:14] to be a policeman the kind

[53:17] that we were constantly encountering or

[53:20] running from

[53:20] or things like that you know i was

[53:23] interested

[53:24] in knowing really understanding

[53:28] who middle class people like my

[53:32] parents and and all of our neighbors and

[53:34] things like that

[53:36] who were they what were they about

[53:40] there really wasn't any aspect of the

[53:42] world that just i wasn't

[53:44] totally curious about you became a

[53:47] basically a teenage anthropologist

[53:49] i suppose i suppose in some ways

[53:53] because because of this

[53:57] need to know and understand

[54:00] there's also kind of a curiosity that

[54:02] i've always had

[54:04] about when i see something that i don't

[54:07] understand

[54:08] i really want to understand it or if i

[54:10] see an opportunity to learn something

[54:12] that

[54:12] i didn't even know existed as a

[54:14] possibility it's like

[54:16] you know like i really i'm drawn to that

[54:19] it's like

[54:20] okay i i want i want to know more about

[54:24] this

[54:28] so i guess

[54:32] at least the way that i think about it

[54:34] those were the two sides

[54:35] to myself in those years now

[54:38] right up to the point of uh

[54:41] i guess it was in the this spring prior

[54:45] to my 18th birthday

[54:47] that i made this really clear resolve

[54:50] that

[54:50] okay i have to get myself out of this

[54:52] situation

[54:53] so it doesn't because we've got about

[54:55] five minutes left

[54:57] let's leave it there because this sounds

[54:58] like a good place to to take a

[55:01] break and next time we will move on to

[55:03] the next

[55:04] the next phase the 18th from 18 onwards

[55:07] and uh

[55:08] i can't wait to to hear the next

[55:09] installment because it's been

[55:11] quite a tale so far um

[55:15] i i mean it's been quite quite um

[55:19] well i'm just very sorry that you you

[55:21] went through all those things but

[55:23] but clearly um what we see so much with

[55:28] nowadays is this term that's being

[55:29] thrown around a lot more post-traumatic

[55:31] growth

[55:32] and i see that you you know your story

[55:35] uh

[55:35] is heading in that direction it's

[55:38] wonderful so

[55:39] i'm not familiar with the term

[55:41] post-traumatic

[55:42] growth but it's very appropriate yeah

[55:45] yeah

[55:46] so um well okay so we're gonna leave it

[55:50] there and next time we'll pick up here

[55:52] and we can go straight into it

[55:54] um because uh we've done uh all the

[55:57] laying the groundwork i think well it's

[56:01] fascinating i just um

[56:04] just it's just so sad that you went

[56:06] through through all that

[56:07] because i mean i think this is why i

[56:09] don't work with children because i find

[56:11] it too difficult to work with children

[56:12] who have been

[56:13] traumatized and abused it just hurts my

[56:16] heart too much

[56:17] and well here's something you know you

[56:20] don't need to feel sad

[56:22] because i don't uh i mean there was a

[56:25] time

[56:25] when i did feel sad and angry about it

[56:28] but

[56:29] right now i my with the understanding

[56:33] i am grateful for that it made me

[56:37] who and what i am and i like

[56:41] who and what i am yeah

[56:45] i can absolutely relate when i look back

[56:47] on things in my life that have been very

[56:48] very difficult

[56:50] um i i almost go thank god for those

[56:53] things

[56:54] uh because i wouldn't be and i mean this

[56:56] fits in so well with the buddhist

[56:58] understanding of the universe right

[57:01] and cosmology and karma and all of that

[57:03] like you wouldn't be

[57:05] the person that you are now with the

[57:07] opportunities and the

[57:09] thinking that you have now if those

[57:11] things hadn't happened to you

[57:13] but certainly yep post traumatic growth

[57:16] is a real thing that

[57:17] i'm very interested in and people are

[57:19] talking about and is possible

[57:21] right trauma trauma can be a source of

[57:27] great uh grit and

[57:30] and great um fuel

[57:33] it can be fuel like just like i think

[57:37] we'll talk about that you know pain and

[57:39] suffering are the

[57:40] so often the fuel that that drive this

[57:43] desire

[57:44] this wholesome desire to to seek out the

[57:46] dharma and to meditate and all of that

[57:50] it's uh you know there's a couple of

[57:53] common cliches that come to mind that

[57:56] speaks to a really deep truth

[57:57] you know one of which is what is what

[57:59] doesn't destroy you only makes you

[58:01] stronger

[58:02] yeah yeah yeah yeah and

[58:06] i think that that that is yeah that's

[58:09] really been true

[58:10] in my life and that's that's how i see

[58:13] it

[58:14] now in trauma and pain there's all this

[58:15] potential

[58:17] for for great um

[58:20] strength and healing and it's all in

[58:23] there

[58:24] and it's kind of what you do with it

[58:25] right that's right

[58:27] and the other thing which is probably

[58:31] a much harder thing for most people to

[58:33] accept but it's easy for me because of

[58:35] my background is this idea that

[58:38] life never gives you more than you are

[58:40] capable

[58:41] of dealing with which isn't to say that

[58:44] sometimes

[58:46] far too often i guess people don't

[58:52] manage to deal with it yeah yeah

[58:55] and and through no necessarily no not

[58:58] necessarily through any fault of their

[58:59] own but they just don't know

[59:01] how and what to do right and

[59:04] yeah well thank you julius i think this

[59:07] is a great start um

[59:09] and let me just pause the stop the

[59:11] recording there

Culadasa
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Lay-practiceCuladasaThe-mind-illuminatedOx-herding-picturesMonasticism

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Culadasa argues yes, saying that a lay practitioner can find a real place for Buddhism in everyday life rather than only supporting monasteries. He describes the lay path as more challenging but ultimately more powerful, because work, family, and money are the material the practice works with.
According to Culadasa, no. Life still has just as many obstacles as before, perhaps more, but awakening changes how a person perceives them. The basic expectation is fulfilled because one no longer sees challenges from the stance that things should be other than they are.
Culadasa points out that the final image in the traditional ox-herding sequence is a return to the marketplace, and that the elephant diagram likewise ends with the monk returning. He notes this idea appears in both Tibetan and Chinese Chan traditions, and he argues that continuing the process requires rejoining the world.
Culadasa, John Yates, Ph.D., taught physiology and neuroscience at the Universities of Calgary and British Columbia and was the founding director of the West Coast College of Massage Therapy. He retired from academia in 1996 and moved to an old Apache stronghold in the Arizona wilderness to deepen his spiritual practice.
He used the phrase to describe the idea that withdrawing permanently into a forest, a mountain cave, or a monastery after awakening stops the process of growth. In his view, the spiritual path requires eventually rejoining the world, though he adds that the process never truly reaches completion.
He did not take the full monastic route, but he spent almost two years as a Catholic seminarian, which he describes as trying the monastic life out. He has said that leaving one's family behind is neither desirable nor possible for many people who ask him about practice.

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