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Inspiration

The Soul Across Greek, Buddhist and Christian Thought

NT
New Thinking Allowed
Nov 2, 2026
読了 約8分

出典:New Thinking Allowed with Jeffrey Mishlove

視聴 · 8

Jeffrey Mishlove opens with a confession. He will turn 80 this year, he tells his guest, and he is not the same person he was as a teenager. Emile Alexandrov, a philosopher formerly at the University of Tyumen and now an assistant professor at Waseda University in Tokyo, takes that remark and runs with it. Change, he argues, is where any serious inquiry into the soul has to start. What follows, recorded in Albuquerque on August 15, 2026, is a long walk through how Greek thinkers, medieval Christians, Buddhist meditators, Hindu traditions and Jungian psychologists each answered the same stubborn question: what in us persists through change, and does any of it survive death?

読む · 7セクション

Why does the soul need a starting point at all?

Alexandrov's first objection is grammatical before it is metaphysical. "Automatically we give it a definite article," he says of the phrase "the soul," and that little word presumes a thing, a fixed object that can be pointed at. His own starting point is quieter. Look at the world of experience and nothing holds still. "Nothing stands still as Heraclitus would say," he tells Mishlove, and if everything around the observer is changing, the observer is changing too.

"When I look at the world of experience, things are always changing... Nothing stands still as Heraclitus would say. And so from there I would have to presume that as an observer I am changing too." (Alexandrov, interview, around 4:56)

That gives the inquiry its shape. If the self is in flux, then any account of soul must explain what stays aware while everything else moves. It is a modest-sounding premise, and it does a great deal of work over the next hour, because each tradition he surveys answers that question differently.

When did the soul become a concrete thing?

Alexandrov's answer is that the soul as a discrete, objectified entity is largely a later development. Before the Middle Ages, he argues, the claim could not be made decisively. The shift shows up clearly in Thomas Aquinas, whom Alexandrov describes as defining the soul through will accompanying intellect. Once a volition travels alongside reason, you have, in his words, "some form of objectified entity," a concreteness to the person. Aquinas justified this mainly through scripture, Alexandrov notes, and then added his own reasoning on top.

The significance is that the modern sense of soul, as an individual subject with a unique inner life, is a relatively recent lens. Alexandrov says plainly that "we are living in the modern paradigm of soul being a uniqueness, an individual, a subject," and that this is hard to account for when you look at ancient contexts. The ancient picture, by contrast, is built from reason rather than from personhood.

How did the Greeks place the soul inside a rational cosmos?

For the Greeks, the world itself was rational, and that rationality was something a thinking person could discern through experience. But every person grasps it only partially, which produces what Alexandrov calls "increasing grades of reason." On this view the soul is not a sealed-off possession. It is a fragment of a greater rationality, which Plato and Aristotle would call intellect. Everything else in the world can be understood more fully to the degree that one participates in greater reason.

Alexandrov is careful about where this leaves the modern reader. Plenty of people today would object that soul is about passion and emotion, the word we use when someone is "very soulful" and artistic. He does not dismiss that intuition. He simply points out that the ancient vocabulary of soul rests on intellect as its ground, and that this is the hardest thing for modern ears to hear.

Earlier still, Heraclitus gave the flux a principle. Alexandrov describes consistent change operating under the aegis of the logos, so that there is order inside the flux and the human being is subject to that order. Heraclitus, he says, does not articulate an elaborate cosmology, but he conveys the sense of it, and that sense carried into the early Middle Ages, when reason was taken to reign and the rationality of the world seemed to inhere in both subject and object, with no firm line between them.

Mishlove's reply captures the logic. Perhaps humans discover that they can reason and then project that capacity outward onto the whole, which gives us the idea of a world soul, the anima mundi. Alexandrov agrees that this is "beautifully put." The pattern repeats in the ninth century, when, by Alexandrov's reckoning, the Arabic philosopher al-Farabi, born around 870 and dying around 950, described an "aboutness" in things, a way the mind takes an object in and makes meaning of it. Look at a chair or a tree without interference, Alexandrov says, and then bring it inward, and you have the beginning of understanding.

What are Buddhists trying to silence in meditation?

This is where the conversation turns. Alexandrov contrasts two starting points. The Christian reading of the Greeks tends to treat soul as a concrete entity, though he suggests that reading is not as decisive in the Greek texts as Christians took it to be. The Buddhists, by contrast, take the opposite road and use meditation to narrow attention until you no longer register externals at all. "They're seeking that silencing," he explains, and to do it you have to silence "quite literally every aspect of human experience."

The discussion of anatta, the Buddhist doctrine of non-self, sits in this territory. Alexandrov's point is that the Buddhist method is not a retreat into nothingness but a deliberate subtraction, and what remains after subtraction is not an emptiness to be feared. The fear, he says, is widespread: people imagine oblivion, an abyss. He rejects that picture for Buddhism.

"The ultimately positive message of this is that it is not annihilation. This is what frightens a lot of people. They think about oblivion or an abyss. It's not... The idea is if you do silence all of this it is an unimaginable bliss." (Alexandrov, opening exchange)

The phrase "unimaginable bliss" is worth holding onto, because it reframes the whole Buddhist project as a question of what experience is left when nothing is clung to. The conversation keeps circling this idea.

Why does clinging keep coming back as the problem?

In the middle sections on desire and suffering, Alexandrov returns again and again to clinging. Desire, attachment and the grasping of the self are the mechanism by which people experience suffering, and he links the great tragedies of human life to the way we cling to what we are in so far as we cling. The point is not moralistic. It is structural: if the soul is the thing that holds onto experience, then the soul's identity is partly a matter of what it holds.

That structure is what makes the later questions about survival so difficult. If we cling to a self and the self is constituted by grasping, then what would count as surviving death? Alexandrov does not pretend the answer is easy, and he admits that the question of whether anything that survives remains individually identifiable is the hardest one of all.

Can anything survive death and still be recognizably you?

The video's description lists rebirth, karmic continuity and the possibility of survival after death among its core subjects, and the excerpt available here reaches the Christian material on resurrection. Alexandrov notes that the kingdom of God is not presented as a simple place or an automatic outcome, and he frames the Christian question of whether a person keeps an original identity through transformation as a real puzzle rather than a settled doctrine. Christianity's emphasis, as he presents it, is typically not on the body as such but on the person's relation to God and to the transformation that follows.

Across traditions, then, the survival question divides into two sub-questions. One asks whether anything continues. The other asks whether that continuing thing is still a particular someone. Buddhism, with its non-self teaching, pushes hardest on the second. Christianity keeps the individual at the center of its promise. Greek intellectualism locates the enduring part in a universal rational order, so that individuality is secondary to participation in reason.

The closing movement of the conversation, which the description ties to awareness itself, goes further. Alexandrov points toward a state he describes as perfect harmony and universal love, in which awareness understands itself. If the deepest continuity underlying all the changing ideas of soul is awareness, then the question of individual survival may be less about preserving a personal file and more about what consciousness is when it is no longer organized around clinging.

Where to go from here

Alexandrov's own work is the natural next step. He is the author of The Other Platonist Beginning and Metaphysics and Ineffable, both of which extend the questions raised here about intellect, the One and the limits of what can be said. Mishlove also points viewers to the earlier interview between the two, which he describes as a conversation on the romance of metaphysics, and says it is not a prerequisite but is well worth watching.

The full video moves beyond the material covered above. Its later chapters take up Russian cosmism, physical resurrection and transhumanism, and the description frames the closing argument around awareness as the possible continuity beneath every changing idea of the soul. Those are the sections to watch if you want to see where Alexandrov takes the argument once the traditions have been laid side by side.

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Transcript

[0:00] Of

[0:14] course, you know, like I said with the

[0:17] Greeks, it's not so decisive that they

[0:20] have a concrete entity to soul. Mhm. I

[0:23] mean the the Christians certainly read

[0:25] them as saying that that is the case but

[0:27] it isn't so much. Um whereas the

[0:30] Buddhists they take this as a starting

[0:32] point and they do this because

[0:35] they want to to narrow in meditation to

[0:38] the point where you no longer are aware

[0:42] of externals. So you're silencing.

[0:46] They're seeking that silencing.

[0:48] >> Right? So in so doing you have to

[0:50] silence quite literally every aspect of

[0:52] human experience.

[0:54] >> But the ultimately positive message of

[0:57] this is that it is not annihilation.

[0:59] This is what frightens a lot of people.

[1:01] They think about oblivion

[1:03] >> right

[1:03] >> or an abyss. It's not

[1:05] >> for the Buddhists. The idea is if you do

[1:07] silence all of this it is an

[1:10] unimaginable bliss.

[1:12] >> Yeah.

[1:13] >> Keep watching to learn more. The new

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[2:13] >> [music]

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[2:20] conversations [music] on the leading

[2:22] edge of knowledge and discovery with

[2:25] psychologist Jeffrey Michionlo.

[2:31] [music]

[2:35] Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey

[2:37] Michionlo. Today we are going to talk

[2:40] about the soul. My guest is Emil

[2:43] Alexandruff who is here with me in

[2:45] Albuquerque. This is our second

[2:48] interview. I think you'll enjoy our

[2:50] first one on the romance of metaphysics,

[2:53] but we're going to really focus on a

[2:56] different topic today. It's not a

[2:58] preerequisite that you watch that

[3:01] interview, but you would really enjoy it

[3:03] if you do.

[3:05] Emil is the author of metaphysics and

[3:07] ineffable as well as the other platonist

[3:10] beginning. He's here in New Mexico today

[3:13] as a visiting scholar at the University

[3:16] of New Mexico and he is an assistant

[3:18] professor at Waseda University in Tokyo

[3:23] obviously a specialist in philosophy.

[3:26] Welcome again Emil.

[3:28] >> Thank you very much for having me

[3:29] Jeffrey.

[3:29] >> It's a pleasure to be with you once

[3:31] again. Truly

[3:33] >> likewise,

[3:33] >> I enjoyed our previous interview so

[3:36] much. I think in a way your passion for

[3:40] philosophy exemplifies what I think of

[3:43] as the epitome of what a new thinking

[3:46] allowed interview should be.

[3:48] >> Oh, I appreciate that very much. It's a

[3:50] great honor. Yeah.

[3:52] So

[3:53] I guess be before we start delving into

[3:57] the different ways that philosophy has

[4:01] examined and depicted the soul. Is there

[4:05] a way we can define it to begin with a

[4:08] starting point for our viewers?

[4:11] >> Well that's the challenge with trying to

[4:13] define the soul. See automatically we

[4:16] give it a definite article the soul. M

[4:19] >> so that in itself presents challenges.

[4:21] So we presume that there is something to

[4:23] be talking about.

[4:24] >> Yeah.

[4:25] >> Well, you know, for me the biggest issue

[4:28] is the starting point,

[4:30] >> right? So as we were discussing a lot of

[4:32] this over lunch,

[4:34] when I look at the world of experience,

[4:37] right, I see that things are always

[4:40] changing, right? Nothing stands still as

[4:43] Heracitis would say, right? And so from

[4:46] there I would have to presume that as an

[4:50] observer I am changing too.

[4:53] >> Now with that context in mind I

[4:56] automatically have to have an idea of

[5:00] awareness in a consistent state of

[5:03] change. From there I begin my inquiry

[5:06] into soul.

[5:08] >> Okay that's good.

[5:09] >> Yeah

[5:10] >> it's beautiful cuz I I feel full of soul

[5:13] now. And as you point out, I'll be 80

[5:15] this year. Uh, and I realize I'm not the

[5:19] same person that I was as, let's say, as

[5:22] a teenager. I'm very different now.

[5:24] >> Yeah. So, exactly. So, this features

[5:26] into the ancient debates on what soul

[5:28] actually is.

[5:30] Um, if we are to take it from the

[5:32] perspective of the Middle Ages, that's a

[5:34] very important point in history because

[5:36] prior to then it couldn't be decisively

[5:40] stated that the soul was an entity the

[5:42] way the Christian tradition would have

[5:44] it for example. So when you have

[5:48] thinkers like for example Aquinus

[5:50] >> defining soul on the basis of will right

[5:54] so a valition that is accompanying the

[5:57] intellect automatically we do have some

[5:59] form of objectified entity a

[6:01] concreteness to the person

[6:04] >> right of course this Aquinus justifies

[6:07] primarily through scripture right he has

[6:10] scripture as the background but then of

[6:12] course he also adds his own reasoning

[6:15] Um, would you like me to juxtapose this

[6:17] with the ancient tradition because

[6:19] that's where it's really different.

[6:20] >> Okay.

[6:21] >> Okay. So, basically with the ancient

[6:23] tradition,

[6:23] >> you're talking about the Greeks, I

[6:25] presume.

[6:25] >> Greeks. Yeah. Now, let's stick with the

[6:27] Greeks for now so we don't get too

[6:28] convoluted.

[6:30] Um, well, so basically, okay, so the

[6:34] Greeks would have viewed the world as a

[6:37] rational one, right? And this

[6:40] rationality is pretty much discerned by

[6:44] the person undergoing the experience. So

[6:47] from there what they see is that every

[6:49] person has a limited view of rationality

[6:52] as such. So following this idea

[6:56] we get the perspective of increasing

[6:59] grades of reason.

[7:02] And so what soul is then is but a

[7:04] fragment of a greater rationality which

[7:08] people like for example Aristotle and

[7:10] Plato would call the intellect. Okay. So

[7:14] from here we have to conclude at least

[7:18] um on the first level that so is

[7:22] derivative of a greater rational order.

[7:24] Mhm.

[7:26] >> So everything else about the world can

[7:29] be viewed to a greater extent in so far

[7:32] as you have greater amounts of reason.

[7:35] Now a lot of modern people are going to

[7:37] object to that definition. They're going

[7:40] to say soul is is about passion. It's

[7:43] about emotion. It's we use the word to

[7:46] say you're very soulful.

[7:48] usually means that you you're artistic

[7:51] or have have a great desire

[7:56] to do something in the world. That's

[7:58] right. I mean I would say definitely we

[8:00] are living in the modern paradigm of

[8:02] soul being a uniqueness an individual a

[8:05] subject.

[8:07] Now this you know is very difficult to

[8:10] account for when you look at ancient

[8:12] contexts you know I mean

[8:14] >> would even before Plato and Aristotle

[8:17] the prescratic philosophers accepted the

[8:20] idea of a rational

[8:23] universe

[8:24] >> absolutely I mean um depending on which

[8:27] prescratic we're talking about if we

[8:29] talk about Heracitis for example he

[8:31] talks about consistent change but this

[8:33] change works under the opaces of the

[8:35] logos So there is some order to this.

[8:39] >> Yeah.

[8:39] >> Right. And so the human being is merely

[8:42] subject to this order. Of course he

[8:44] doesn't articulate a very complex

[8:46] cosmology

[8:47] but he gives you that sense. And this is

[8:50] maintained well even into the early

[8:52] middle ages. Okay. So for example prior

[8:55] to the development of scholasticism

[8:57] proper the idea is that reason reigns

[9:01] supreme. reason in the sense of

[9:04] intellect. Uh the rationality of the

[9:06] world is in everything in the subject

[9:10] and in the object. So much so that there

[9:11] isn't even a distinction yet between the

[9:14] two.

[9:15] >> It seems to be a projection of something

[9:18] human. Humans discover that they can be

[9:20] rational and then project it out onto

[9:23] the world as a whole. So we get the

[9:26] idea, I think, of the animi, the soul of

[9:29] the world.

[9:30] >> Yeah, that's beautifully put. That's

[9:31] right. So if we are to turn for a second

[9:34] to the early let's say the Arabic

[9:36] tradition, right? So if let's take

[9:38] Alfarabi for example, a famous um

[9:41] neoplatonist and also a Aristotilian

[9:45] among other things.

[9:46] >> What century?

[9:47] >> So we're talking 9th century. So

[9:49] >> century.

[9:49] >> So he was born I'd say 870. He would

[9:52] have died 950

[9:54] >> somewhere thereabouts. So, Al Farabi

[9:56] would have had um would have had this

[10:00] idea um an aboutness. Okay, he used the

[10:04] Arabic term for aboutness. There is

[10:06] aboutness in the world by which you go

[10:09] to make meaning. So, you look at things

[10:12] um purely unadulterated first. Let's say

[10:16] a chair, right? Or a tree. You look at

[10:18] it and then you just make sense of it by

[10:22] bringing it in internally

[10:24] into the mind. So then it works it out

[10:26] and then you discern that's a chair. It

[10:28] serves this function. So there is this

[10:30] two stage process mediation if you like

[10:34] right which he thinks is only particular

[10:37] to the embodied soul. But the point is

[10:41] this

[10:43] when someone dies or they're freed from

[10:45] the body, right? There's no longer a

[10:48] mediation process. So there is just pure

[10:51] thinking. There is no primary and

[10:54] secondary intelligibles as he would call

[10:55] it.

[10:56] >> The aboutness is gone. It just is.

[10:59] Right. So in other words, we are only in

[11:02] sold in so far as we are in the body.

[11:05] >> Oh

[11:06] >> yeah,

[11:07] >> I understand. And correct me if I'm

[11:09] wrong, in some ancient philosophies,

[11:12] they would distinguish between the soul

[11:14] and the spirit.

[11:16] >> Yes, of course. Yeah. Um, in general,

[11:19] the spirit, if we take it from Plato,

[11:21] Plato is a good one to look at. So, he

[11:23] would have said, you know, there is a

[11:25] spiritedness. So, this is the um desire

[11:28] for courage, honor, you know, elation

[11:31] for music and all that sort of thing.

[11:34] And then there is the intellect which is

[11:37] another part of the soul which is purely

[11:40] reason right and then of course he has

[11:42] the passions which is bodily desire. So

[11:45] he has this is the tripartite theory of

[11:46] the soul.

[11:48] >> So these three components come together

[11:50] but they are always governed by the

[11:51] intellect. So this Alfarabi was really

[11:54] reading into Plato quite literally

[11:56] taking the [clears throat] intellect to

[11:57] be the only true how do I say permanent

[12:01] entity if you like

[12:02] >> which side for philosophers to feel that

[12:05] way but I would imagine that in in the

[12:08] general population particularly in the

[12:10] ancient world they're not particularly

[12:12] concerned with the intellect.

[12:14] >> It depends how you define the intellect.

[12:16] I mean the Buddhist for example would

[12:18] not have an idea of the intellect or

[12:22] consciousness for the Buddhists as

[12:25] something that is you know primarily

[12:28] focused with truths

[12:31] >> um rational truths discursive truths for

[12:34] example higher geometrical principles or

[12:36] whatever for them it's just a form of

[12:38] awareness that brings everything into

[12:41] view

[12:42] >> right and so with the Buddhist

[12:43] traditions you know because they're So

[12:46] you know despar often you won't you'll

[12:49] find some of them that believe that you

[12:51] can have a consciousness free from the

[12:53] body and some that you won't.

[12:55] >> Mhm.

[12:55] >> So the message there is much more

[12:58] complicated. Right. But if we're

[13:00] speaking about intellect in the Greek

[13:02] sense we are talking primarily about the

[13:04] ability to make sense of the world. I

[13:06] >> mean they had Uklid he was already doing

[13:09] very rigorous geometry.

[13:11] >> That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And so

[13:13] geometry already was central to the

[13:16] tradition. It was the highest form of

[13:18] reason to a large extent. Um discursive

[13:21] reason danoi as Plato would call it. Now

[13:25] I suppose this is it's an important

[13:26] thing to have brought up Uklid because

[13:29] Plato would have distinguished this

[13:31] geometrical um truths from a higher

[13:34] truth he calls an oasis or

[13:35] understanding. Mhm. So other thinkers,

[13:40] later thinkers, later interpreters of

[13:41] Plato would have understood Plato to

[13:44] mean that geometrical principles they

[13:46] apply in so far as we're talking about

[13:48] matter.

[13:50] >> So once you leave the world of matter

[13:52] and it becomes incorporal, these

[13:54] geometrical principles are perfect. So

[13:56] much so there is no longer calculation

[13:58] at work.

[13:59] >> Mhm.

[14:00] >> And this is what entails when you have

[14:01] noises or understanding. There's no

[14:04] longer calculation at work.

[14:07] >> That's right.

[14:08] >> Mean they didn't have mathematics

[14:10] independent of the physical world.

[14:12] >> They had higher mathematical forms

[14:16] >> but they are not calculated at this

[14:17] point. They are complete.

[14:20] >> Mhm.

[14:21] >> Right. This is also a Pythagorian sense.

[14:24] In the Buddhist worldview, you have

[14:26] similar ideas when they talk about

[14:28] consciousness that is you know uh based

[14:33] primarily on conceptual proliferation as

[14:35] in carving up the world into bits and

[14:37] parts and to make meaning of it

[14:40] >> is already a form of clinging a clinging

[14:42] on to the world.

[14:44] >> So it's already convoluted by desires

[14:46] and things like this. So you can never

[14:48] make an inference that is ever going to

[14:50] be complete in itself because you're

[14:52] already clinging on with bodily desires

[14:55] and everything else.

[14:55] >> So in the Buddhist tradition, desires

[14:58] are considered undesirable.

[15:00] >> Absolutely. That's the central message,

[15:02] right? Is to overcome all bodily desire

[15:05] because that is what perpetuates

[15:07] suffering. And in other traditions, I

[15:10] gather, I've certainly heard it these

[15:13] days, people would say, you know, to be

[15:15] full of desire is to be soulful. Well,

[15:19] you know what? That's an actually really

[15:20] good statement because even Plato would

[15:23] agree with this because that what's

[15:25] that's what happens when you're in soul.

[15:27] You are filled with desire because once

[15:30] the soul is freed from the body and if

[15:32] we take this narrative of it being

[15:34] intellect pure, [clears throat]

[15:35] >> intellect proper, then it no longer has

[15:39] desire,

[15:40] right? It's in a consistent state of

[15:43] bliss, happiness.

[15:44] >> It no longer has a hiccup in that which

[15:48] it desires. It already has it. It's

[15:50] complete.

[15:51] >> Well, that sounds nice from a

[15:52] philosophical point of view. I would say

[15:56] uh from the point of view of I'll call

[15:58] it parasychological folklore, we hear a

[16:02] lot about hungry ghosts and I'm sure

[16:05] that you find that in the Buddhist

[16:07] tradition

[16:09] as well. The idea that disembodied souls

[16:12] are sometimes uh filled with the desires

[16:17] for their former life for for whatever

[16:20] habits or addictions or attractions they

[16:23] once had. Yeah, I mean this is a very

[16:25] good point also. So when you're in a

[16:29] current life for the Buddhists, you can

[16:31] cultivate a you can cultivate such a

[16:35] strong desire for certain things that

[16:37] they actually extend into the subsequent

[16:39] incarnation or rebirth.

[16:41] >> Right. So it sort of forms an illusory

[16:44] identity that moves between lives.

[16:46] >> We've talked about the the notion of

[16:48] samscaras.

[16:50] >> That's right. Yeah. So uh in effect you

[16:54] know I think also this brings me to your

[16:57] essay on you know the survival of uh you

[17:00] know bodily death.

[17:03] >> From what I gather from the essay the

[17:05] tricky point is distinguishing

[17:08] what it is that actually survives.

[17:10] >> So you accept that something survives.

[17:12] >> I accept that something survives and

[17:15] that it does have desire.

[17:18] >> That's right. Okay. So it is the

[17:21] principle of individuation that's really

[17:23] the tricky point, isn't it? So trying to

[17:25] distinguish what it is that preserves

[17:27] after you die.

[17:29] >> So this is also what you see in you know

[17:33] uh the Buddhist tradition they would say

[17:35] well it's not really the body that

[17:36] survives. It's you know the maintenance

[17:39] of karmic residue.

[17:41] >> Karmic residue being itself based on

[17:44] cleanings of prior lives. So this is

[17:47] pretty much consistent with

[17:48] parasychological data points because if

[17:51] individuation is going to survive in the

[17:54] next life

[17:55] >> it's based on things that were important

[17:57] in that life.

[17:59] >> I would agree.

[18:00] >> Yeah.

[18:00] >> Yeah.

[18:01] >> Yeah. And it makes perfectly sense. So

[18:04] um now if we talk about u imagining soul

[18:10] >> let's say free from conceptual

[18:13] proliferation and why they talk about it

[18:15] as consistent state of bliss. Well, we

[18:18] can imagine that you know the Buddhists

[18:22] developed this meditative tradition of

[18:24] stealing the mind, right? By stealing

[18:28] the mind, you no longer have let's say

[18:32] um

[18:34] anchors from which you are going to

[18:37] desire another thing. So let's say for

[18:39] example you are hungry and you satisfy

[18:41] your hunger, you're going to get hungry

[18:43] again.

[18:44] >> Mhm. [clears throat]

[18:44] >> Right. So the idea is that you are

[18:46] silencing all desire but still staying

[18:50] aware.

[18:51] >> Mhm.

[18:52] >> So the Buddhists believe you can do this

[18:53] in in the embodied life.

[18:56] >> Yeah.

[18:56] >> Right. So if you can do this in embodied

[18:58] life and we use that as evidence then we

[19:00] can talk about a unadulterated

[19:03] awareness.

[19:04] For example, I've interviewed in the

[19:07] past a vapina teacher named Shinszen

[19:10] Young

[19:11] >> uh who talked about his wife was a

[19:14] heroin addict and through meditation she

[19:18] learned that

[19:20] she wasn't the addiction. The addiction

[19:22] was just a a a thought accompanied by

[19:26] certain either desires or aversions and

[19:29] she could separate herself from it. And

[19:33] that way she freed herself from the

[19:35] addiction.

[19:36] >> Yes, that's right. And so the good news

[19:38] I suppose with the Buddhist perspective

[19:40] is that you are not your desires.

[19:43] >> Yes.

[19:44] >> Right. But in the same time you have to

[19:47] take this all the way through and

[19:48] understand that you are not a self.

[19:51] >> That's very interesting. It's a core

[19:54] concept in Buddhism.

[19:55] >> That's right. Anat right in Sanskrit. So

[19:57] the idea is that you are not any one

[20:01] form of consciousness, right? You're

[20:04] none of your senses. You are none of

[20:06] your um aggregates, your mental

[20:08] formations, your feelings. None of that

[20:10] is you. What you are is on a fundamental

[20:13] level, if you are to say you're anything

[20:14] is you're a lif stream. You are

[20:18] basically traversing from one life to

[20:21] the other based on what you cling to,

[20:25] >> right? based on what consciousness

[20:27] itself clings to which in itself gives

[20:29] rise to karmic residue.

[20:31] >> Yeah.

[20:32] >> Right.

[20:32] >> It's a beautiful vision I think.

[20:34] >> Yeah. Well, it's great because you know

[20:37] um it doesn't make life seem like it's

[20:40] pointless. I mean you you can come back

[20:43] into the subsequent life for other

[20:45] reasons,

[20:47] >> right? It doesn't just have to be

[20:48] negative bodily desired clinging. But at

[20:51] the at the end of the day, I'm pretty

[20:52] sure that the the Buddhist notion of

[20:55] anata is diametrically opposed to the

[20:59] Judeo-Christian idea of an eternal soul.

[21:02] >> Absolutely. Yeah. So, this is where the

[21:04] two traditions differ. Right. So, of

[21:08] course, you know, like I said with the

[21:10] Greeks, it's not so decisive that they

[21:14] have a concrete entity to soul. Mh. I

[21:16] mean the the Christians certainly read

[21:18] them as saying that that is the case but

[21:21] it isn't so much. Um whereas the

[21:24] Buddhists they take this as a starting

[21:25] point and they do this because

[21:29] they want to to narrow in meditation to

[21:32] the point where you no longer are aware

[21:36] of externals. So you're silencing. They

[21:39] are seeking that silencing.

[21:41] >> Right? So in so doing you have to

[21:43] silence quite literally every aspect of

[21:45] human experience.

[21:47] >> But the ultimately positive message of

[21:50] this is that it is not annihilation.

[21:52] This is what frightens a lot of people.

[21:54] They think about oblivion

[21:56] >> right

[21:56] >> or an abyss. It's not

[21:59] >> for the Buddhists. The idea is if you do

[22:01] silence all of this it is an

[22:03] unimaginable bliss.

[22:06] >> Yeah.

[22:06] >> Perfection. You know

[22:08] >> I think I've heard the term

[22:10] spaciousness. Yeah, spaciousness. I mean

[22:13] uh you know

[22:16] the evolution of the idea this nirvana

[22:18] or nibbana in in Pali in the original

[22:21] sense has undergone so much you know ev

[22:25] so much of change

[22:27] >> Buddhists don't really know how to

[22:28] characterize it. It seems the oldest if

[22:31] we'd go back to the you know to the can

[22:33] to the tippetaka

[22:35] it's basically complete cessation

[22:37] >> sessation of awareness such that even

[22:40] consciousness of the gods because they

[22:42] do have realms of gods that in itself is

[22:45] some form of clinging

[22:48] >> hanging on which means that it does

[22:50] involve some unfulfilling

[22:52] aspect right so if we remove even that

[22:56] highest grade of awareness for the

[22:59] Buddhist S it is pure bliss. The far

[23:02] shore is what he calls it. You know

[23:04] often the far shore the unseen.

[23:07] >> I gather the Hindus have a similar idea.

[23:10] >> Yeah the Hindu Hindus do. I mean again

[23:12] the Hindu tradition is so varied in

[23:14] scope. But the Hindus I would say would

[23:17] mostly you know equate this this if you

[23:20] want to call it with the truth of the

[23:22] Brahman.

[23:23] >> Mhm.

[23:23] >> So in some sense you are the world in

[23:25] its totality.

[23:27] You are everything.

[23:28] >> Yeah. You are this self and the real

[23:30] self.

[23:31] >> The the equation atman equals brahman.

[23:34] >> Exactly. Of course, I would say the I

[23:37] would say that Sedata's message

[23:40] um is much more radical, you know,

[23:43] because he's talking about absolute

[23:45] sessation. So, it's totally

[23:46] transcendent.

[23:47] >> The idea that we are one with

[23:50] everything, isn't it practically

[23:52] equivalent to say we we are nothing?

[23:55] >> Yeah. That's but that's basically the

[23:57] Buddhist formula. Yeah. Yeah. That means

[24:00] you are everything and nothing

[24:01] simultaneously.

[24:03] >> Mhm.

[24:03] >> Yeah. So this by the way is the later

[24:06] development of the Mahayana tradition.

[24:08] This is basically the core concept they

[24:09] develop.

[24:10] >> Mhm.

[24:10] >> Right. So they bring in this idea that u

[24:14] you are enlightened already. You just

[24:17] haven't realized it. So nirvana is

[24:18] already always the case. But for the

[24:21] Greeks with the emphasis on on the

[24:25] rationality as being the the core

[24:28] principle, the logos which I guess is

[24:30] incorporated into Christianity as well

[24:33] in the gospel of John.

[24:36] Uh that's very different.

[24:37] >> Absolutely. So here's where it's

[24:41] different. Right. So for the Greeks

[24:43] there is this idea that the more you

[24:46] cultivate reason

[24:49] the more free you become right. So the

[24:52] higher your rationality the more

[24:54] intellect you become.

[24:56] >> So much so is that you can define

[24:58] philosophy as Plato does as practicing

[25:02] death while being alive

[25:05] so that the body no longer stands in the

[25:07] way. So you develop higher orders of

[25:12] geometry to that effect. It is

[25:15] sillogical. It's salvific to gain higher

[25:17] grades of knowledge.

[25:19] >> Right? This isn't the case in in

[25:21] Buddhism because the idea there is that

[25:24] any conceptual framework is a form of

[25:25] clinging. Concepts themselves don't

[25:28] exist. They are themselves empty.

[25:31] >> Whereas for Plato and the Greeks in

[25:33] general, it's not the case. Isn't there

[25:35] the notion

[25:38] and I don't know historically where it

[25:40] begins. Diana yoga the idea that you can

[25:43] achieve enlightenment by thinking your

[25:45] way there.

[25:46] >> Yeah. I mean that was the originally a

[25:48] lot of the Buddhist traditions. They

[25:50] figured that you would have to develop

[25:52] sufficient conceptual understanding

[25:54] before you can position yourself

[25:57] in a way as to allow for enlightenment

[25:59] to occur. [clears throat]

[26:00] >> This is by the way still central to to

[26:02] Tibetan Buddhism. There are many major

[26:04] figures that develop this idea that you

[26:06] have to understand what it is you're

[26:08] doing before you get into meditation.

[26:10] That also means that all knowledge

[26:12] pursued is always pursued in favor of

[26:14] enlightenment. That is the ultimate

[26:16] goal.

[26:16] >> Mhm. [clears throat]

[26:17] >> Right. It's not so different in that

[26:18] context from the Greeks. But the Greeks

[26:21] do see that there is a um you know there

[26:24] is a utility to knowledge as well. I

[26:26] mean you transform the world as well.

[26:29] Mhm.

[26:29] >> So, so in seeking salvation transforms

[26:33] the world also together. This is also

[26:36] unique to the Greek tradition. So,

[26:37] sciences are so theological.

[26:40] >> Well, now you've introduced the word

[26:42] salvation. Is that a Greek idea?

[26:44] >> Uh, well, no, that's probably a you

[26:48] know, Judeo-Christian idea.

[26:50] >> Um, but of course it has Greek roots,

[26:52] sortology. So, it seeks, you know,

[26:55] liberation or freedom in the ultimate

[26:57] sense. Um but this idea of salvation

[27:00] with esquetology and everything is more

[27:02] Judeo-Christian. Yeah.

[27:04] >> And also since we're talking about

[27:06] language,

[27:08] >> I think it's interesting that in the

[27:11] 18th century we had this notion in

[27:14] Europe of the enlightenment.

[27:17] >> And it seems to be as I understand it

[27:20] from what little I know of history, it

[27:23] had to do with the the rational mind.

[27:25] people were really developing a lot of

[27:28] rational ideas and of course challenging

[27:31] older world views through through the

[27:34] viewpoint of rationality and that was

[27:37] considered enlightened very different I

[27:40] think from the Buddhist idea of

[27:41] enlightenment but it does seem now that

[27:44] you we're talking about it to be

[27:47] consistent with the Greek notion of the

[27:49] intellect.

[27:51] >> Yeah. I mean look this is I mean the

[27:53] scope has just suddenly broadened a lot.

[27:56] [laughter]

[27:56] Um but it is a very important discussion

[27:58] for soul for a number of reasons.

[28:01] >> I mean from the philosophical

[28:02] perspective

[28:04] um the enlightenment can be said to

[28:06] begin perhaps with Decart right and

[28:09] Decart of course I think therefore I am

[28:12] is the first person I know this is being

[28:14] resounded over and over to have

[28:16] developed the distinction between the

[28:17] subject and the object. Right now the

[28:20] enlightenment as such is actually a

[28:21] greater historical movement. It it you

[28:24] know it basically works off the

[28:26] discoveries of the scientific revolution

[28:29] and the period of the renaissance before

[28:31] it. The idea is there is this triumph of

[28:34] reason.

[28:34] >> Mhm.

[28:35] >> Right. But the reason that we have at

[28:38] work here is not the salvific kind that

[28:40] you had with the Greeks.

[28:42] >> So it is a reason that is primarily

[28:44] developed for the purpose of utility.

[28:46] Mhm.

[28:48] >> So it's for the freedom of man, so to

[28:50] speak. You know, that's what the

[28:51] Renaissance was always about, right? So,

[28:55] you know, when we bring this idea into

[28:57] enlightenment, what we see then is that

[29:00] um everything else goes into the back

[29:02] burner, right? So, suddenly we no longer

[29:04] need higher questions, higher orders.

[29:07] All we need is to understand the world

[29:09] better because we are all subjects in

[29:11] this world that's seemingly chaotic

[29:13] >> and we're trying to understand it and

[29:15] unpack it, you know, so as to live a

[29:17] more comfortable life. And also I gather

[29:21] the the notion of overthrowing

[29:23] monarchies, developing a more

[29:25] enlightened democracies of course

[29:28] emerged from it. It had enormous

[29:31] political implications

[29:32] >> of course and actually we can even say

[29:34] that this is perhaps the proper you know

[29:38] individuation of soul on the historical

[29:40] level because every human being suddenly

[29:42] becomes a true permanent entity with an

[29:45] internal soul that has a reason as to

[29:47] why he or she is in this world right so

[29:52] the um you know the system of laws must

[29:55] reflect that politics must reflect that

[29:57] that's why democracy was eventually you

[29:59] know, inevitable.

[30:00] >> And in the United States, the

[30:02] Declaration of Independence

[30:05] >> seems to have emerged from these

[30:07] enlightenment ideas.

[30:09] >> That's right. Yeah. So now, if we

[30:12] understand this in its historical, you

[30:14] know, uh, you know, positioning, we see

[30:16] how radically different our

[30:18] understanding of soul has gone, you

[30:20] know, throughout the ages. There is I

[30:22] think a very good chapter it might be if

[30:24] I remember this correctly by Alistister

[30:26] McIntyre I think he called it the uh in

[30:28] his after virtue he talks about uh the

[30:33] heroic city I think it is and anyway he

[30:36] speaks about the Greeks in the sense

[30:38] that they did not understand themselves

[30:40] as different from their society. Mhm.

[30:42] >> So [clears throat] if someone committed

[30:43] a crime, they were given the option

[30:44] between execution or exile. And almost

[30:47] all Greeks would pick execution because

[30:51] nothing frightened them more than being

[30:53] exiled into something which they would

[30:56] consider a nothingness,

[30:57] non-belongingness

[30:59] because for them they already call

[31:01] extensively Greek society. They

[31:02] understand individuality in that

[31:04] conventional sense. So this is a very

[31:06] interesting anchor. I mean I don't know

[31:07] if McIntyre is you know uh completely

[31:11] right but there is on the philosophical

[31:12] level much credence to this thought

[31:15] >> and sociological even today we see

[31:18] people in cults who are afraid to leave

[31:22] the cult because their identity is so

[31:24] wrapped up in it. The philosophical

[31:27] perspective I think is a little bit more

[31:29] nuanced in that they track all of this

[31:31] not to some sociological phenomena. Not

[31:34] to for example a character of a people

[31:36] so much but more towards which everyone

[31:39] has seemingly the same ability to

[31:43] comprehend

[31:45] problems

[31:46] >> and to solve them. That's why they

[31:48] really like mathematics because it

[31:50] seemed universal. Another one example

[31:53] they really liked was astronomy.

[31:55] Everybody saw the same celestial

[31:57] movements, right? And so for them, this

[32:00] was evidence of a higher order.

[32:02] >> It was the only evidence. In fact, this

[32:04] this idea that things make sense, things

[32:07] can be made intelligible, right? For

[32:09] them, emotions, responses to certain

[32:12] pains and and joys, all of these things

[32:14] are not consistent.

[32:16] >> The world of the body, the world of

[32:19] emotions as opposed to the world of the

[32:22] intellect. We can use the example for of

[32:25] Mino Socrates amino when he teaches the

[32:29] slave boy who apparently has no training

[32:31] in geometry.

[32:32] >> Mino is the slave boy.

[32:34] >> No, it's the dialogue name. The slave

[32:35] boy is given no name.

[32:37] >> Typical of the Greeks of course during

[32:39] the time.

[32:40] >> Um and so in any case u Socrates

[32:45] illustrates that all knowledge is

[32:46] actually recollection a remembering.

[32:48] Mhm.

[32:49] >> And he illustrates this by you know

[32:51] drawing up a very basic square and then

[32:54] shows and you know explains to the boy

[32:56] only with a certain amount a little

[32:58] nudge

[32:59] >> right how to work out how to double the

[33:02] square

[33:03] >> right and then he you know explains

[33:05] later on you see I didn't really teach

[33:08] him anything he he remembered he's a

[33:11] slave boy now there are deep underlying

[33:13] message here that Plato is anti-slavery

[33:15] what not we can take that direction but

[33:17] the point is that all of awareness,

[33:20] intellect already harbors this ability

[33:23] to make sense of the world and

[33:24] mathematics, geometrical principles are

[33:27] the pinnacle of this.

[33:28] >> It doesn't sound so different from the

[33:31] idea you were expressing attached to

[33:34] Mahayana Buddhism that we're already

[33:36] enlightened.

[33:37] >> That's right. Yeah. So, I mean, in that

[33:39] sense of remembering, yes, I would say

[33:42] that's the case. In fact, if we look at

[33:45] what they understand to be the chief

[33:47] obstacle towards enlightenment, it is

[33:49] ignorance.

[33:50] >> Mhm.

[33:51] >> Right. The way they use the Sanskrit

[33:52] term of ignorance is actually unnowledge

[33:56] or non-wisdom.

[33:58] >> Right? And so this idea that once you

[34:01] remove ignorance, you suddenly have

[34:03] knowledge and you have wisdom and you

[34:06] truly understand.

[34:07] >> Isn't there something else though? Um

[34:10] the word dooka comes to mind.

[34:13] >> Yeah. That's suffering. Right. So dooka

[34:14] is the fundamental fact of experience.

[34:18] >> It's part and parcel of dependent

[34:20] origination that everything comes to be

[34:23] and everything passes away on and on

[34:25] forever in so far as you are conscious

[34:27] in so far as you cling. Right? That's

[34:30] the world the Buddhist worldview. Mh.

[34:32] >> And so in other words, to overcome this,

[34:34] you have to stop clinging so that

[34:36] there's no longer this consistent eb and

[34:39] flaw.

[34:40] >> I think in and I'm just referring now to

[34:43] contemporary society. It's often

[34:46] suggested that we develop soulfulness

[34:49] through suffering.

[34:51] >> Yeah, that's right. I mean, this is this

[34:53] is actually this is actually the

[34:55] phenomena of the modern world,

[34:58] >> right? So through suffering, through

[35:00] clinging, through desire, we ens the

[35:02] world, but we also give it meaning.

[35:04] >> Yeah.

[35:05] >> Right. So a perfect example is that why

[35:07] do we enjoy tragedy?

[35:09] >> Tragedy is considered the highest art

[35:11] form.

[35:12] >> Exactly. Right. But tragedy is quite

[35:14] literally take it in the sense of the

[35:16] word. It is a tragedy. It's suffering.

[35:17] It's pain. But it gives us this sense of

[35:21] feeling that that makes meaning uh

[35:25] present in life. I've often felt that,

[35:27] you know, the great tragedies of

[35:29] Shakespeare

[35:31] are ones that in one way or another seem

[35:34] to express the nobility of the human

[35:37] spirit in the face of suffering.

[35:40] >> Yeah. I mean that is that's one

[35:42] excellent way of looking at it. Um but

[35:44] you of course you can take this down the

[35:46] route of the Buddhist perspective. We

[35:48] can take it through Shopenhau for

[35:49] example.

[35:50] >> Shopenhau would speak about the sublime.

[35:52] We enjoy tragedy because it's sublime.

[35:55] >> And what happens when there is this

[35:56] sublime, right? He uses for example the

[35:59] moon is that for a moment, right, you

[36:03] are so captivated by your insignificance

[36:06] that your any sense of individuality

[36:08] just drops off.

[36:09] >> Mhm.

[36:10] >> And for that moment you are in a period

[36:11] of elation,

[36:13] >> right? You're free from everything else

[36:14] that makes you suffer.

[36:17] >> Right. So that is also another way of

[36:19] explaining this. You brought up the

[36:22] moon, did you?

[36:23] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, he really likes the moon

[36:25] and he uses, you know, basically, you

[36:28] know, landscapes, things that are beyond

[36:31] the human.

[36:32] >> Mhm.

[36:32] >> Right. Like, for example, a really high

[36:34] mountain peak in the middle of winter,

[36:36] snow cap, that sort of thing.

[36:38] >> There's also the idea of, again, going

[36:42] back to the emotions. The moon seems to

[36:45] govern emotions.

[36:47] >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean this is a very old

[36:49] idea and we spoke about this briefly at

[36:50] lunch. Um to be honest for me it's a

[36:53] very fascinating topic. I am not so sure

[36:55] as to why they picked the moon

[36:57] >> but I do know that they do pick this. I

[36:59] mean this goes back to the middle ages.

[37:02] >> Um you know principally it's because

[37:05] when you have an astronomy an early form

[37:08] of astronomy and you notice that the

[37:09] moon is perfectly cyclical. It's always

[37:11] you know going around the earth. Mhm.

[37:13] >> They figure that there's some meaning to

[37:15] this and they attach metaphysical

[37:17] principles to it.

[37:18] >> Yeah.

[37:18] >> Right. For example, you know, like I

[37:20] mentioned Al Farabi earlier, he called

[37:22] it the active intellect.

[37:24] >> Right. So the sub lunar world is

[37:26] imperfect whereas the super luna world

[37:29] is perfect.

[37:31] >> Oh

[37:31] >> yeah.

[37:32] >> Well, it would also seem to have

[37:34] something to do with the masculine and

[37:36] the feminine.

[37:37] >> Yeah. Well, that I wouldn't know. I mean

[37:40] the moon is often correlated with the

[37:43] female menstrual cycles.

[37:45] >> That's right. Yeah.

[37:46] >> Yeah.

[37:46] >> The moon governs the tides.

[37:49] >> Yeah.

[37:49] >> And and water water is associated with

[37:53] the emotions.

[37:54] >> Yeah. I mean from the middle ages

[37:57] perspective it certainly had a placeh.

[38:00] >> It it you know the reason why a lot of

[38:02] these philosophers would have called it

[38:03] the active intellect is because it does

[38:05] these things. It seems to govern the

[38:08] terrestrial world. it seems to impact

[38:10] almost everything.

[38:11] >> Mhm.

[38:12] >> So that was I suppose the reason why

[38:14] they attached a lot of these

[38:15] metaphysical principles to it. Um but

[38:18] overcoming the moon meant you know no

[38:20] longer being governed by the moon. So

[38:22] you're no longer subject to let's say

[38:24] the tides as you say. It's hard to

[38:26] discuss the soul without also bringing

[38:30] up Carl Jung and Yungian psychology and

[38:34] his notion of thema which I gather for

[38:37] in Yungian thought for for males the

[38:41] soul is feminine and and for females I

[38:44] think the idea is it's an animus they

[38:47] they have a masculine soul.

[38:49] >> Certainly with the Greeks they wouldn't

[38:51] have had a gender to soul. Mhm.

[38:53] >> Um it would have overcome all bodily

[38:56] function altogether right

[38:58] >> um so you know the later theories is

[39:02] that it's self moved for example it

[39:04] doesn't have principles of corporal

[39:06] motion you know it's free it exists in

[39:10] the sense that it is just thought pure

[39:12] thought so [clears throat] these things

[39:14] don't require gender it's not

[39:16] reproducing in that sense

[39:18] >> Jung regarded his soul as as like a

[39:22] being and and He there's a passage it

[39:24] came up in an interview recently where

[39:27] from Jung's own diaries where he's

[39:30] referring to his soul and he's saying I

[39:32] made a terrible mistake. I treated you

[39:35] as an object of study instead of as a a

[39:39] teacher, a guide, a companion. I need to

[39:42] learn from you. Please teach me.

[39:44] >> Of course, he had this archetype, you

[39:46] know, the archetypes that is always, you

[39:48] know, guiding his thought. [sighs]

[39:50] >> Um, yeah. Look, I mean, I don't have

[39:52] much to say about KL Jung's perspective.

[39:54] I think he was beholden to the idea that

[39:56] soul was an entity.

[39:57] >> Mhm.

[39:58] >> And that it did somehow, you know, have

[40:02] an extra bodily life.

[40:05] But I'm not sure he developed that

[40:07] theory completely.

[40:09] Um I'm not sure he had a concrete

[40:11] understanding himself.

[40:13] >> No, I suppose he left it at at the level

[40:15] of it's an archetype.

[40:17] >> Yeah, I think so. But then then

[40:20] archetypes themselves seem to be a very

[40:23] powerful concept that that is still

[40:26] eluding us.

[40:28] >> Well, this is not really my area of

[40:29] expertise, but I see this a lot in in uh

[40:32] a lot of scientists that breach into

[40:34] this topics. For example, you know, you

[40:36] have the morphic field of Rupert Shre,

[40:39] >> right? It's not so different, right?

[40:40] >> The morphic field.

[40:42] >> Yeah. The morphic field, how the morphic

[40:43] resonance works,

[40:45] >> right? Um well to me it seems like you

[40:48] know a lot of contemporary science is

[40:50] trying to make sense of [sighs]

[40:53] um a incorporal form of awareness

[40:58] >> an awareness that is not restricted by

[41:00] bodily you know function

[41:01] >> I would say the paranormal but

[41:03] >> the paranormal yes absolutely yeah

[41:06] >> um but to be honest it only makes sense

[41:08] because you know if we are to look from

[41:11] the perspective of soul right I'm a

[41:13] product of how many generations before

[41:15] me as are you. [clears throat]

[41:16] >> And there is some consistency between

[41:18] generations, right? We bring a world

[41:21] with us, you know, along the way. We're

[41:23] bringing a world a world that can be

[41:26] made sense of in much the same way.

[41:28] Mathematical principles that work today

[41:30] work 500 years ago, right? So there is

[41:33] some consistency to this. And so if the

[41:36] world is consistently changing, but

[41:39] these principles don't, you would have

[41:41] to automatically infer that it already

[41:43] persists. Well, the soul though is a

[41:46] principle that does change. We've gone

[41:48] from the eternal soul to the anata to

[41:52] from the all to the nothing. It actually

[41:56] does remind me of the yin-yang uh logo

[41:59] for this channel that everything

[42:02] contains within it the seat of its own

[42:04] opposite.

[42:05] >> Yeah, that's right. I mean, so what I

[42:07] would say is that our understanding of

[42:09] the self

[42:11] >> has varied extensively throughout

[42:13] history. Yeah.

[42:14] >> Right. But what hasn't changed is

[42:16] awareness the way we engage the world.

[42:19] >> Right. So we still maintain this sort of

[42:23] you know to me the fundamental pre

[42:26] predisposition would be the desire to

[42:29] make sense of the world. But when I say

[42:32] the world I I think I mean even more

[42:35] more expansive like existence.

[42:37] >> Mhm.

[42:37] >> There is there seems to be this angst to

[42:40] consciousness itself that it wants to

[42:42] know itself. Yeah.

[42:43] >> Which of course Kant made very famous by

[42:45] saying reason cannot extend beyond

[42:47] itself.

[42:48] >> Right. He recognized this. Right. And of

[42:51] course you mentioned duka.

[42:53] >> Mhm.

[42:54] >> Um only recently we started scholars

[42:56] have started to think well duka actually

[42:58] means unease. Normally it was understood

[43:01] as just suffering you know straight out.

[43:04] But it's not necessarily the case. It

[43:06] means you know unease unfulfillment.

[43:10] there is this desire to complete

[43:12] something. It seems to me that this is

[43:15] what is fundamental to existence itself,

[43:17] this awareness, right?

[43:19] >> And um it seems consistent throughout

[43:22] history.

[43:23] >> Although I accept the scientific data

[43:26] pointing to an afterlife, there is this

[43:29] sense that if if I were to die right

[43:32] now,

[43:34] there would be lots of things in my life

[43:37] that would be incomplete.

[43:40] Yeah. And so you would imagine that this

[43:42] would have a carryover effect.

[43:45] >> Um in fact to my mind it would seem

[43:49] um it would seem irrational to suppose

[43:51] that it goes nowhere,

[43:53] >> right? Because that same desire is why

[43:57] you are here in the first place. And so

[44:00] when you're no longer here,

[44:03] how can it be that it just ends? Right?

[44:06] So that's the tricky point for me.

[44:08] But again, what it is that persists in

[44:11] the subsequent let's say let's call it

[44:12] rebirth. That's the tricky problem. How

[44:15] do we figure out what it is? [laughter]

[44:17] Well, and Buddhism is a very interesting

[44:20] example of of the fine edge of paradox

[44:24] that they uh seem to accept

[44:27] reincarnation but not the idea of a soul

[44:30] that reincarnates.

[44:31] >> That's right. So, and this is why they

[44:34] cultivate meditation. So for them the

[44:37] reason why you can for example recollect

[44:40] prior lives which is pardon you know

[44:42] parcel of the meditative tradition the

[44:44] supernowledges

[44:46] >> is because you are a no self in the

[44:48] first place. So when you meditate to a

[44:50] certain state of awareness you are

[44:53] tapping into a field of awareness which

[44:55] is your own lif stream. It's it's a

[44:58] karmic field that goes back countless

[45:00] lives.

[45:01] >> Is there a word for that?

[45:03] >> Which word? the live stream.

[45:04] >> Samati, I think.

[45:06] >> Yeah.

[45:07] >> Could you say that again?

[45:08] >> Samati.

[45:09] >> Samati.

[45:10] >> Yeah. You'll have to double check that.

[45:11] >> All right.

[45:12] >> So, it's continuity. That's the idea.

[45:15] It's a continuity. And so, when you

[45:18] meditate,

[45:19] right, and you suddenly have developed

[45:22] this high level of insight,

[45:24] >> you are freed from the constraints of

[45:26] the body which traps you only in

[45:27] conceptual proliferation. Suddenly

[45:30] you're able to recollect what was

[45:32] already making you present in this life.

[45:36] >> So you so the Buddha famously

[45:38] recollected all his pri in incarnations

[45:40] thousands millions of lives. Um and they

[45:43] do this on the basis of a no self.

[45:46] >> Mhm.

[45:47] >> Because you cannot recollect if you are

[45:48] the soul here and another soul there and

[45:50] another soul there. It's not the same.

[45:53] >> Well, but if you're one soul going all

[45:55] the way through, well, that's the life

[45:57] stream.

[45:58] >> That's right. Yeah, that would be the

[45:59] live stream. That's how you'd understand

[46:01] it.

[46:01] >> Well, let if if I may take you back to

[46:04] the Christian notion.

[46:06] Is it the case actually? Let see if we

[46:10] can pin it down that the let's take

[46:13] Aquinus. Does he accept the idea of an

[46:16] eternal soul?

[46:17] >> Yeah, he believes the soul is immortal.

[46:19] He's explicit about this. The best way

[46:21] to define it is that the soul is vition

[46:25] will accompanied by intellect. Mhm.

[46:28] [clears throat]

[46:28] >> Um so there is an equal balance between

[46:30] valition and intellect right or will

[46:34] when you die that soul basically goes to

[46:38] judgment and depending how you've lived

[46:40] your life if you lived your life he's

[46:42] Greek here in this sense if you're

[46:44] virtuous then your life would be

[46:46] rewarded

[46:47] >> because you understood rationality so

[46:49] you were prone to head towards reason

[46:52] >> even without the Christian context it's

[46:53] pretty much Greek

[46:55] >> but if let's say you lived a life

[46:57] without virtue then that's where you're

[46:59] headed you're headed towards suffering

[47:00] because virtue is irrational and

[47:02] irrationality is equivalent with

[47:04] suffering

[47:05] >> so he makes it very clear in that sense

[47:07] but it is eternal nonetheless

[47:10] mean if you have one lifetime and if you

[47:13] are not a a good person a good rational

[47:17] person you'll be condemned for all

[47:19] eternity to suffer

[47:21] >> whether it's for all eternity or not uh

[47:24] that's you know that's a bit difficult

[47:26] to answer but definitely you will go

[47:29] through some form of purgatory.

[47:31] >> Mhm.

[47:32] >> Right. There will be a process where you

[47:34] you you know slowly purify your soul

[47:36] from all the stains. In general the

[47:38] Christian tradition doesn't even accept

[47:40] a pre-bodily existence so that the soul

[47:44] is incipient with the body.

[47:45] >> Mhm.

[47:46] >> It becomes you know uh it's created as

[47:50] it were. Some Christian thinkers took

[47:53] exception to this. For example, people

[47:55] like Clement of Alexandria who was much

[47:57] much more earlier than Aquinas. He does

[47:59] speak of a pre-bodily existence, but he

[48:01] describes it as the intellect. He takes

[48:03] the Greek sense. So the intellect

[48:05] descends at some point and on the scent

[48:07] it assumes a body and that's where the

[48:09] soul comes to being.

[48:10] >> So the pre-existence of the soul is a

[48:14] controversial idea in Christianity.

[48:16] >> Absolutely. That is Yeah. And it's a

[48:18] very interesting one because the the

[48:22] subject matter of reincarnation or

[48:23] rebirth that's completely that's that's

[48:25] non-negotiable

[48:26] >> right

[48:27] >> in Christianity in general you won't

[48:28] have reincarnation but the the point

[48:31] about preexisting souls prior to the

[48:33] body that's a big one

[48:36] >> um more ancient uh Christians would have

[48:38] would have been more favorably

[48:41] predisposed to this idea but the later

[48:43] thinkers were not.

[48:45] >> Mhm. [clears throat] The Arabic thinkers

[48:46] like Al Farabi and Alkindi definitely

[48:49] were they because they were they were

[48:51] more pleness so to speak. So they

[48:54] basically said that the soul and the

[48:55] intellect are indistinguishable as we've

[48:57] already spoken about. So pre-existence

[48:59] already makes sense.

[49:01] >> But they also don't believe in

[49:03] reincarnation. For them it doesn't make

[49:05] sense that a body can be recycled.

[49:08] Right? So they think that the body's

[49:10] uniqueness is that one life. It's that

[49:13] [clears throat] one's sold life. They

[49:15] don't have a concept of resurrection.

[49:17] >> No, they have bodily resurrection in the

[49:19] sense of judgment day,

[49:22] >> right? Or the final day they call it.

[49:24] >> So they do have a concept of

[49:26] >> Yeah. But it's not typically the body as

[49:29] we understand it. It's really

[49:31] complicated because you know a lot of

[49:34] these Arabic thinkers who were more

[49:36] philosophers than they were pious

[49:37] Muslims, Iben Cena for example, would

[49:39] have said that this is all metaphorical

[49:41] >> and it's not quite resurrection that's

[49:43] at work. It is whatever's you know

[49:45] retained

[49:46] >> of the intellect while you were in this

[49:48] life.

[49:49] >> But when you talk to mymonities or other

[49:53] Christian thinkers when they speak of

[49:55] resurrection it's not so different from

[49:58] the idea we've been talking about the

[50:01] transhumanists

[50:03] being resurrected in a computer. It

[50:05] would be the the physical resurrection

[50:08] of the body atom by Adam.

[50:10] >> That's right. I mean my monities was

[50:11] famous because he was you know he was uh

[50:14] not necessarily a proponent of

[50:16] individuation being maintained after you

[50:18] die. He was about the active intellect

[50:22] um basically assuming whatever you

[50:24] whatever you live through back into

[50:26] itself and then you become one with the

[50:28] active intellect of humanity.

[50:30] >> Yeah.

[50:31] >> So it's not necessarily soul the way we

[50:33] understand in a conventional sense.

[50:35] >> Um but in the same time it is immortal.

[50:39] So there is something to it

[50:41] [clears throat]

[50:41] >> and um for me this seems to be the

[50:43] biggest challenge with understanding

[50:45] soul and why soul is such an interesting

[50:46] topic because

[50:49] in a general sense across the entire

[50:52] tradition or legacy of the western

[50:54] civilization is that something survives

[50:57] >> but is it individuated or not

[51:00] >> big question

[51:01] >> that's the big and I think that was

[51:02] actually where you landed with your

[51:05] essay in the end

[51:06] >> it is a big question but there are

[51:08] examples certainly that I bring up in my

[51:12] essay of for Dr. Lang, the uh eye

[51:17] surgeon who who died and was

[51:20] resurrected, you could say, in in the

[51:22] form of a spirit guide and conducted

[51:26] healings for decades

[51:29] and maintained his original identity to

[51:32] such an extent that Dr. Lang's daughter

[51:36] bequeafd a large portion of her estate

[51:38] when she died to the medium who was

[51:41] channeling her father.

[51:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible. And of

[51:45] course, we can take Ian Stevenson's

[51:46] research

[51:49] that, you know, all these children that

[51:50] sort of they take up these memories

[51:54] >> with such meticulous detail. But then

[51:56] again, I don't think I'm not so beholden

[51:58] to the idea that this resolves the

[52:00] problem. It could [laughter]

[52:03] it could be just memories, right? It

[52:05] could be just, you know,

[52:06] >> yes, it could,

[52:07] >> you know, it's not necessarily that this

[52:09] soul ejected from this body,

[52:11] >> right?

[52:11] >> It's not so clear.

[52:12] >> It could be a transfer of memory, a

[52:15] transfer of information.

[52:17] >> Exactly. And this is what I think the

[52:19] Greeks were most likely, you know, a

[52:22] proponents of. Well, I don't think we

[52:25] can conclude our study or our

[52:28] examination of the concept of soul

[52:30] without referring to the fact that you

[52:33] just returned from a visit to Utah where

[52:36] you gave a lecture to the Mormon trans

[52:40] humanist association concerning the idea

[52:44] of the physical resurrection of the

[52:47] body.

[52:48] >> That's right. So, the Church of

[52:50] Latter-day Saints has a very interesting

[52:53] theology. if you want to call it that,

[52:56] whereby the world is eternal and human

[52:59] beings are also immortal.

[53:01] And so this whole idea that human beings

[53:05] are already on the path to God.

[53:07] >> So transhumanism is already basically

[53:10] consistent with this doctrine is just

[53:12] putting it to work in the real world.

[53:15] >> So for me, this was all really

[53:16] fascinating because they're effectively

[53:18] putting a religious framework into

[53:20] practice in the scientific domain.

[53:23] Right? Of course, they don't accept

[53:25] reincarnation, at least not from what I

[53:28] understand. They nonetheless accept that

[53:30] there is an immortal intelligence

[53:33] that is at work which can be cultivated

[53:37] in the life of the body. It's really

[53:39] fascinating stuff. So, we see that this

[53:41] is even, you know, this is a relatively

[53:43] modern religion.

[53:44] >> So, we see that this idea is, you know,

[53:46] still prevalent today. And if I recall

[53:49] correctly from the the advertisement uh

[53:53] for your lecture, you you argued that

[53:56] there is potentially a scriptural or a

[53:59] religious obligation that we have today

[54:03] to resurrect ourselves inside of

[54:07] computers.

[54:08] >> Yeah. Um well, I mean, I wouldn't say

[54:12] for computers. [laughter]

[54:13] >> Okay.

[54:14] >> Yeah. Um but there is certainly you know

[54:17] there is certainly ways of reading

[54:18] scripture in that sense

[54:21] and not even just church of latter day

[54:23] saints scripture like the book of

[54:24] Mormon. I mean you could read certain

[54:28] >> the orthodox tradition can be read in

[54:29] such a way I mean for example the famous

[54:31] Russian cosmist Nikolai Fodov.

[54:33] >> Yeah

[54:33] >> that's how he read Christianity. He read

[54:36] the New Testament. He said that this is

[54:37] what we're meant to do.

[54:39] >> Uh the kingdom of God is not some

[54:42] further place away. it is here. We just

[54:45] have to achieve it ourselves.

[54:47] Um much of this has to do with again

[54:49] awareness being the only thing that can

[54:52] be cultivated. Everything else is

[54:54] superfluous and subject to change.

[54:56] >> Mhm.

[54:57] >> Uh so all of this takes us back to the

[54:59] same problem. You know what is it that

[55:01] really persists? Is it individuated or

[55:03] not? Mhm. [clears throat]

[55:04] >> Um and so if we accept this idea that we

[55:08] do have an incorporal form of awareness,

[55:10] consciousness that is not bound by the

[55:13] confines of the body, then it makes

[55:16] every sense of the term, at least to me

[55:18] logically, to cultivate it to the

[55:20] greatest degree possible.

[55:22] And this is what it means on the obverse

[55:24] to become insold

[55:25] >> from the perspective of the Russian

[55:27] cosmists and Fodderov in particular to

[55:32] migrate into outer space is is almost a

[55:35] religious duty.

[55:36] >> In fact, it's not only a religious duty.

[55:38] Fodorov had this sense that it was

[55:40] inevitable.

[55:40] >> Mhm.

[55:41] >> And that human expansion towards the

[55:43] stars was exploring God's garden which

[55:46] is the world. Right. The onus is on us.

[55:50] But Fodov has a very despite all his

[55:53] heavy palemic towards the Buddhist

[55:56] tradition he has a lot in common with

[55:58] them. Mhm.

[55:59] >> He says for example that we cannot do

[56:01] any of this. We cannot realize this

[56:03] ultimate this ultimate common task as he

[56:06] calls it um until we overcome enmity.

[56:10] Right? Until we overcome base human

[56:14] desires,

[56:15] >> right? So he says unless we no longer

[56:18] think about ourself only about

[56:20] ourselves,

[56:22] >> right? Then we cannot do this. So he saw

[56:26] that there must be a brotherhood, a

[56:28] sisterhood

[56:29] >> of our species whereby we are all

[56:32] collectively conscripted. He uses the

[56:35] term conscripted towards bringing the

[56:38] kingdom of God to earth to the world.

[56:42] >> Does he Fodor talk about the individual

[56:45] soul at all?

[56:47] >> He talks about it automatically as

[56:49] co-extensive with the rest of the

[56:51] species. Mhm.

[56:52] >> So in other words, and this is very

[56:54] interesting because FOV is unusually

[56:56] radical. I mean truly original

[56:59] >> as far as originality goes. He's about

[57:01] as original as it gets. So his um his

[57:03] mission statement is um universal

[57:06] resurrection.

[57:07] That means you are to resurrect every

[57:09] one of your ancestors all the way back

[57:12] to every single human being that's ever

[57:14] lived.

[57:15] Until that is achieved, none of us are

[57:17] complete.

[57:19] So how do we understand soul then? You

[57:21] know, we're only truly

[57:24] um a self if you want to call it that or

[57:27] truly soul or truly alive if we are all

[57:30] together

[57:31] >> here now or where.

[57:32] >> Well, this evokes the idea of the group

[57:35] soul.

[57:36] >> Yeah, definitely.

[57:37] >> Or or the soul of the world.

[57:39] >> That's right. Yeah. And of course, when

[57:41] he has this idea that you are to

[57:42] resurrect every single human being, he

[57:44] has in mind that you are making

[57:46] consciousness as aware as possible.

[57:48] >> Mhm. So death for fov is not a good

[57:51] thing. It is that which is to be

[57:52] overcome.

[57:54] >> So death

[57:55] >> death. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So in

[57:59] that sense you know he also

[58:00] problematizes the issue of bodily

[58:03] resurrection and judgment day and

[58:05] everything. Uh because if we are to do

[58:07] all the work then there is no

[58:09] resurrection. There's just completeness.

[58:11] >> And sometimes he calls it the

[58:13] completeness of being. So he thinks once

[58:15] everyone's resurrected, everybody no

[58:17] longer has any enmity, no more

[58:19] animosity, perfect harmony.

[58:21] >> Yeah.

[58:21] >> Then even the the the chaotic forces of

[58:25] nature which he calls a chaotic, they

[58:27] would sort of mellow out into perfect

[58:29] harmony. So it is fundamentally

[58:31] metaphysical what he's thinking about

[58:33] here. Well, if death is something to be

[58:35] overcome, one assumes he doesn't accept

[58:38] survival in in the

[58:42] [clears throat] sense that I write about

[58:44] it in my essay.

[58:46] >> Yeah, it doesn't look like it. I mean,

[58:47] by all accounts, if we follow the

[58:49] reasoning through to its end,

[58:50] >> it seems like every time you die for

[58:52] fear of non-being has gotten the upper

[58:56] hand on being.

[58:57] >> Yeah.

[58:57] >> He has this dialectic at work in his

[58:59] writings.

[59:01] The point however is that humanity is

[59:03] still immortal because we keep

[59:05] reproducing anyway but we keep

[59:07] reproducing and going through the ages

[59:09] of history

[59:11] always you know

[59:14] antagonistic to non-being.

[59:17] So it's not going anywhere until we

[59:19] suddenly stop fragmentation sort of any

[59:23] discordance between ourselves. it will

[59:26] continue you know life after life after

[59:28] life

[59:28] >> and yet we have in the near-death

[59:31] literature people who say that this

[59:33] state of perfect harmony universal love

[59:37] beyond anything one imagines while in

[59:40] the body is what they experience many of

[59:43] them in the in the near-death state

[59:46] >> yeah so as we can see that we really

[59:48] don't know what soul is [laughter]

[59:52] truly yeah I mean this would definitely

[59:54] contradict what Fodov would say Fodov

[59:57] would say no. I mean life is everything.

[59:59] >> He would say that life and death are

[1:00:02] opposed to each other.

[1:00:03] >> Absolutely.

[1:00:04] >> And I think I might say the opposite

[1:00:07] that life and death are intimately

[1:00:10] connected with each other.

[1:00:11] >> Buddhists don't like life and death as a

[1:00:14] cycle either.

[1:00:15] >> They think that's what perpetuates

[1:00:17] suffering. I mean the central message is

[1:00:18] to overcome

[1:00:20] and the cycles of rebirth.

[1:00:22] >> Mhm. So you're no longer dead or alive

[1:00:25] when when you retain nirvana.

[1:00:28] >> So I mean this is also another way of

[1:00:30] understanding soul. It could be very

[1:00:32] much the case that soul itself whatever

[1:00:35] it is is transforming the way it

[1:00:38] understands itself throughout the

[1:00:40] history

[1:00:40] >> because as you can see we've reached the

[1:00:42] age now where we're not so negatively

[1:00:44] inclined toward death. We see death as a

[1:00:47] greater part of life. It makes life

[1:00:48] complete.

[1:00:49] >> Yeah.

[1:00:50] Whereas other other you know traditions

[1:00:52] as we already talked about don't. They

[1:00:54] see the opposite.

[1:00:55] >> I guess the simple truth is we live in a

[1:00:58] world where both ideas have have their

[1:01:03] supporters.

[1:01:04] >> The embracing of opposition between life

[1:01:06] and death seems to be the you know the

[1:01:09] the dominant trend today.

[1:01:11] >> This idea of the celebration of of life

[1:01:14] and death.

[1:01:15] >> I think we see it in literature, we see

[1:01:17] it in poetry, we see it in the arts. Um,

[1:01:20] yeah, I mean it it it's uh it's

[1:01:23] certainly an interesting topic to think

[1:01:25] about.

[1:01:25] >> Emil Alexandro, what a pleasure to have

[1:01:29] a conversation with you about the soul.

[1:01:33] >> Thank you very much. It's

[1:01:35] >> we we could talk for 10,000 years.

[1:01:38] >> Absolutely. [laughter] I'm sure this

[1:01:39] conversation will extend beyond this

[1:01:41] session.

[1:01:42] >> Yeah. I'm It's so wonderful to have you

[1:01:45] here in Albuquerque and I definitely

[1:01:49] want you back before you leave.

[1:01:51] >> Thank you very much. It's a great honor.

[1:01:53] >> It's It's a joy for me. Truly a a joy.

[1:01:58] And I venture to say it's a joy for our

[1:02:01] viewers as well.

[1:02:03] >> I hope so too. Yeah. And for those of

[1:02:06] you watching or listening, thank you for

[1:02:10] being with us because you you are the

[1:02:14] reason that we are here.

[1:02:17] [music]

[1:02:25] [music]

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In Alexandrov's account, Greek thinkers saw the world as rational and each person as holding only a partial share of that reason, producing what he calls increasing grades of reason. On this view the soul is a fragment of a greater rationality, which Plato and Aristotle called intellect.
Anatta is the Buddhist doctrine of non-self, and Alexandrov discusses it within meditation that deliberately silences every aspect of experience. He insists the message is not annihilation but what he calls unimaginable bliss.
Alexandrov says Aquinas defined the soul through will accompanying intellect, which gives the person a concreteness and an objectified form. He argues Aquinas justified this mainly through scripture and then added his own reasoning.
Alexandrov treats survival and individual identity as the hardest questions in the whole inquiry, and he does not offer a settled verdict. His closing move points toward awareness itself as the possible deepest continuity beneath changing ideas of the soul.
The video's description lists Russian cosmism among its later topics, alongside physical resurrection and transhumanism. The material available for this article does not include his treatment of those ideas, so the closing chapters of the video are the best place to see his argument.
In the discussion of desire and suffering, Alexandrov links clinging to the great tragedies of human life and to the way the self is constituted by what it grasps. That makes the question of what survives death depend partly on what the soul holds onto.

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