Transcript
[0:00] I'd learned what the limitation of the
[0:03] theory was. And the limitation was not
[0:06] that it didn't explain the physiological
[0:08] reaction, but the theory as I saw it did
[0:12] not explain the persistence. Trauma is
[0:15] really interesting, not because of the
[0:18] acute reaction to a life threat or a
[0:21] traumatic [music] event, but for the
[0:24] persistence of that response.
[0:26] >> Welcome to Wired for Connection, where
[0:27] we explore what it means to feel safe,
[0:29] to build [music] connection, and to
[0:31] better understand ourselves and others.
[0:33] I'm your host, my name is Travis
[0:34] Goodman. Today, I'm welcoming back Dr.
[0:36] Stephen Porges. Dr. Porges is the
[0:39] [music] creator of polyvagal theory, and
[0:41] his work has influenced how we
[0:44] understand the relationship between the
[0:45] nervous system, trauma, and connection.
[0:47] Our starting point today is his new work
[0:50] called Polyvagal Talks: Clinicians and
[0:53] Scientists in Dialogue with Stephen
[0:56] [music] Porges, which is released on
[0:58] November 10th. So, depending on when
[0:59] you're tuning in, [music]
[1:01] it is a pre-order, or you can grab a
[1:03] copy today.
[1:05] This book brings
[1:06] the conversations that he's had with
[1:08] many colleagues over the years,
[1:09] including Peter Levine, Pat Ogden,
[1:11] [music]
[1:11] Bessel van der Kolk, Deb Dana, and
[1:14] others, and then offers a chance to
[1:16] explore how their ideas have influenced
[1:18] one another throughout the lifespan.
[1:20] [music]
[1:21] And I'm especially interested, and I
[1:22] think you will be too, on how we bring
[1:25] together all these individuals and what
[1:28] becomes possible. And as Dr. Porges
[1:30] shares, the family that is created. So,
[1:33] welcome, and here's my conversation
[1:34] [music]
[1:35] with Steve.
[1:36] >> The book is really about uh my history
[1:39] in moving my science into the world of
[1:42] trauma.
[1:43] >> Yeah.
[1:43] >> So, or rather, I would say uh the
[1:46] invitation from the world of trauma
[1:48] welcomed me me into the world of trauma.
[1:52] And that is a it's a strange place for
[1:56] a a laboratory-oriented scientist. It's
[1:58] just not where they normally end up. Um
[2:01] and so the book, as I saw it, I wanted
[2:03] to leave, and this is kind of a strange
[2:05] term to use, I wanted to have a set of
[2:08] legacy talks.
[2:10] Uh I wanted to have, and we have in
[2:12] since videos and transcripts. The
[2:14] transcripts have become this book. It's
[2:16] a list of people, uh very uh renowned
[2:19] people
[2:21] who have been extremely instrumental in
[2:23] enabling
[2:25] the ideas, meaning polyvagal theory,
[2:28] bringing it into the world of trauma,
[2:30] and explaining it uh
[2:32] to that. And actually uh we can go
[2:34] through those names. They all were
[2:36] instrumental, and I would say welcoming,
[2:39] and they became family. In fact, my wife
[2:41] is a co-author, not a co-author, she has
[2:43] a chapter too. But that's really out of
[2:46] respect for all the evenings that we
[2:49] discussed these things.
[2:50] And uh puts a puts a different view,
[2:53] because she likes to take credit, which
[2:57] is she's welcome to, and probably has a
[2:59] great degree uh a good good rationale
[3:01] for it, of moving me into social
[3:05] sociality, into thinking not merely uh
[3:09] most psychologists and most
[3:11] experimental, let's say, physiologists
[3:14] or psychophysiologists or
[3:15] neuroscientists are looking at a single
[3:18] subject.
[3:20] And [clears throat] her view was really
[3:22] uh we're a uh
[3:24] we're a species the social, and that has
[3:28] a big effect on our physiology.
[3:31] And so that and that she's she studies
[3:34] oxytocin, and she's the renowned
[3:36] scientist who discovered that oxytocin
[3:39] was related to sociality.
[3:41] So it's not like it's a trivial
[3:44] contribution. It's extremely important.
[3:46] And then we have people like Bessel van
[3:49] der Kolk, you know, Bessel is of course
[3:51] quite renowned now.
[3:52] And and Peter Levine, they were
[3:55] basically the Peter was the first one
[3:57] that brought me in. He brought me in the
[3:59] late 1970s.
[4:01] So, he basically found me. I got a phone
[4:03] call and then later met him in
[4:05] California.
[4:06] Uh and said, you know, these ideas that
[4:09] I had on physiology were could help him
[4:12] understand what he was seeing in his
[4:14] clients.
[4:15] And so, brought me into a dialogue with
[4:18] I would say unusual people. Many of them
[4:21] were into somatic therapies, which was
[4:23] really kind of like marginalized back in
[4:25] the cell. I say marginalized, it was
[4:27] outside the realm of traditional mental
[4:30] mental mental health care. He brought me
[4:33] into that world and uh
[4:35] I I found it just intriguing and I
[4:38] actually did a publication on Rolfing in
[4:41] the 1980s trying to show how that
[4:43] impacted on the autonomic nervous
[4:45] system.
[4:46] Um
[4:47] so, it's been an interesting journey.
[4:48] Then after Peter, uh Bessel engaged me
[4:52] and I uh basically gave a talk in the
[4:55] late '90s
[4:56] uh at his uh Boston Trauma Conference.
[5:00] And it basically from his perspective,
[5:02] it changed the world of trauma that day.
[5:05] Um because people started to see this
[5:09] immobilization or what we call in
[5:10] polyvagal terminology a dorsal vagal
[5:13] response
[5:14] as a defense response. And many of the
[5:17] people that experienced this
[5:18] immobilization, dissociation
[5:21] uh were basically told that it you know,
[5:24] they were really in the state of fight
[5:25] flight cuz the uh language that was only
[5:28] available was that either you're safe
[5:31] or you're in fight flight. There was no
[5:34] in a sense uh sentinel trauma reaction
[5:36] or life threat reaction or mortal threat
[5:40] reaction where the body says, "I'm out
[5:41] of here."
[5:42] Uh and so, that brought that into uh uh,
[5:46] basically trauma therapy, trauma
[5:48] explanation. The consequences of the
[5:51] talk with Bessel, and also talks with
[5:54] conferences run in LA that were
[5:56] organized by Marion Solomon, who is no
[5:59] longer with us, but Pat Ogden is, and
[6:03] Pat was my entree into the West Coast
[6:06] attachment therapy, attachment trauma,
[6:10] and that's where Dan Siegel uh was
[6:13] building his reputation, and the two of
[6:15] them were extremely and Alan Shore,
[6:18] who's also
[6:21] in the book in the conversation, they
[6:24] were extremely welcoming to me to be
[6:27] part of this world of trauma. They were
[6:30] curious, and they wanted to be helpful.
[6:33] And I would go to these meetings both to
[6:35] the West Coast and the East Coast, and
[6:37] they have different personalities based
[6:39] on the culture they're in.
[6:41] And I would stay for the meetings, and
[6:44] I'd make this this an important point.
[6:47] Because most academics, when they talk
[6:50] to clinical groups, fly in, give their
[6:53] talk, and get out of there as quickly as
[6:54] possible.
[6:56] Their time's valuable. They they see
[6:58] clinical application as fuzzy, and they
[7:02] basically feel that it's a distraction.
[7:05] So I saw it differently. I saw it as I
[7:08] was curious.
[7:09] I want to learn. And the people were
[7:11] lovely and engaging, and I basically
[7:14] start to learn.
[7:15] And uh so over time, I no longer felt
[7:19] like I was an outsider in the world of
[7:20] trauma. I felt I was contributing and
[7:23] understanding.
[7:24] And the feedback, not merely from the
[7:26] therapists,
[7:27] but from their clients, which I would
[7:29] get emails and stuff, were saying that
[7:31] the theory
[7:32] helped them survive. It gave them an
[7:35] explanation of an experience or their
[7:37] experiences
[7:39] that they were lost to understand, cuz
[7:41] there's so much uh believing that their
[7:44] behavior was being driven by intention
[7:46] or they were being told that. So, in a
[7:49] sense, if their body failed them, they
[7:51] couldn't move,
[7:52] how could that be intention?
[7:55] So, the issue was they started to get
[7:57] understanding that they lived or
[7:59] cohabitated uh or were cohabitating
[8:03] in a body that had intentionality, our
[8:05] conscious brain, and also in lower parts
[8:08] of our brain regulating our uh basically
[8:12] more somatic-related functions, and uh
[8:15] visceral functions. And they started to
[8:18] get appreciation for that. In a sense, a
[8:20] more, let's say, welcoming as opposed to
[8:23] hostility with their body, the anger of
[8:26] basically their own shame and blame of
[8:29] their body. If they could When they
[8:31] started to understand that the body was
[8:33] actually functioning on more primitive
[8:36] reflexes to keep them alive,
[8:38] they could shift their own
[8:41] interpretation of their experience. So,
[8:43] anyway, the book is all about this
[8:45] legacy of putting these people together.
[8:47] And then we have uh
[8:49] uh
[8:50] Gabor Maté, who uh I interacted with uh
[8:54] several for uh well over a decade, but
[8:57] Peter Levine goes back to the late
[8:59] 1970s,
[9:00] Bessel was in the 1990s, and so was Pat
[9:03] Ogden and Allan Schore, and then Dan
[9:06] Siegel in the late '90s, and Deb uh Dana
[9:10] is in the book, and she came in, of
[9:13] course, after the concept of polyvagal
[9:15] theory was already involved in the
[9:18] world, but she was able to take the
[9:20] concepts and develop language to
[9:23] translate the concepts into, I would
[9:25] say, uh
[9:27] uh mental health provider accessibility.
[9:30] >> And and as you think about these
[9:31] conversations over this kind of
[9:33] lifespan, if you will,
[9:35] I I of what you said earlier about this,
[9:37] um, you know,
[9:38] using AI to
[9:41] categorize and see the connection
[9:43] points. And from that lens, I'm curious
[9:46] with all these conversations, the books,
[9:48] you know, the book's obviously
[9:48] completed, and you're sitting with this.
[9:50] I'm wondering what comes to mind
[9:53] like to the surface as a conversation
[9:56] or two that
[9:58] might have influenced, um,
[10:01] how you saw something differently.
[10:04] >> Well, I would say what the conversations
[10:06] gave me
[10:07] was a, um,
[10:10] a
[10:11] uh, let's say a family.
[10:14] You're really describing a family with
[10:17] people that shared with a shared agenda,
[10:19] with a shared curiosity, with a shared
[10:21] compassion for humanity, with a shared
[10:24] desire. Basically trying to make things
[10:26] better and to understand.
[10:28] And so you get a sense of benevolence
[10:31] and and
[10:32] compassion. And so it's
[10:34] kind of can bring [clears throat] tears
[10:35] to my eyes to realize that these people
[10:38] that I walked into from, I would say, a
[10:40] more
[10:41] constrained academic world, which is
[10:43] extremely evaluative. You may not
[10:46] realize that, but it's extremely
[10:47] structured and evaluative.
[10:49] To a world that was now open and curious
[10:52] and just want to be helpful. And for me
[10:55] to make that bridge, to be welcomed into
[10:58] that, uh, without in fact triggering in
[11:01] these people uh, their reactions to
[11:03] their own academic training, which is
[11:05] the professor is always going to be
[11:07] evaluating cuz that's what you're
[11:08] casting.
[11:10] But to share the curiosity
[11:12] uh,
[11:14] of trying to be helpful and to learn
[11:16] from others. So my role was very uh,
[11:18] special in this group.
[11:21] In a sense, my role was to understand
[11:24] what they were doing, to try to, in a
[11:26] sense, uh, take their observations, but
[11:29] now go that next step, and that was
[11:31] innovation.
[11:33] Could I understand what they were doing
[11:35] was now effectively shifting nervous
[11:39] system state.
[11:41] And that's what I basically I would view
[11:43] that as my skill set. And I would say,
[11:46] "Where does that leave us today?" It
[11:48] leaves us in this concept of a polyvagal
[11:50] informed therapist.
[11:52] And what do we know by about that? It's
[11:54] basically the a therapist who looks at
[11:57] their client's face, who listens to
[11:59] their voice, who sees the blood flow,
[12:01] the muscle tone, who sees their
[12:03] physiological state in the observable of
[12:06] their client. And understands that their
[12:09] physiological state is the portal that's
[12:12] going to guide them in delivering the
[12:14] therapy.
[12:16] >> Thinking about that, just shift from
[12:18] this span of
[12:20] being in the family and how the
[12:22] curiosity of authors, researchers,
[12:25] scientists, you know, professors, people
[12:28] um
[12:29] making sense of it and trying to
[12:31] understand them and how one that they
[12:33] invited you in cuz I think that's been
[12:34] part of the story, too. They allowed you
[12:35] to you know, and then you had this
[12:37] curiosity to stay and be part of and not
[12:38] just leave and
[12:39] and the relationships and they have a
[12:42] perspective and they're trying to make
[12:43] sense of it and the theory. It's almost
[12:45] like you guys are all trying to make
[12:47] kind of wrestle with this together
[12:49] and in a generative way.
[12:52] And and and I'm curious now you know,
[12:55] again reflecting on the book and all
[12:56] these conversations up to this point now
[12:58] in your your life like today, I'm
[13:00] curious um
[13:02] how has the theory itself like what
[13:04] what's something you think is maybe
[13:06] changed or evolved since you've seen
[13:08] people apply it?
[13:09] >> Oh. Oh, what I am This actually
[13:12] is
[13:13] very important point. I learned what the
[13:16] limitation of the theory was. And the
[13:18] limitation was not that it didn't
[13:21] explain the physiological reaction, but
[13:24] the theory as I saw it It not explain
[13:27] the persistence. Trauma is really
[13:30] interesting, not because of the acute
[13:33] reaction to a life threat or traumatic
[13:36] event, but for the persistence of that
[13:39] response. And I would say that that
[13:42] triggered my intellectual curiosity for
[13:45] several decades. Now, remember, I'm now
[13:48] if we I'm into the deeply into the
[13:50] trauma world by the late 1990s.
[13:54] And so we're now talking about almost 30
[13:56] years and I was exposed to it 15 years
[13:59] before with Peter.
[14:01] But the issue is I'm in it and what is
[14:04] the question that I I can't answer?
[14:07] Question is
[14:09] why and how? Really it's the how
[14:12] question. How does the body remain in
[14:15] that state? The acute state is clear.
[14:18] That's polyvagal theory. It's beautiful,
[14:21] it's succinct, it's efficient, it
[14:23] explains it. But why stay there or how
[14:26] does the system stay there? So the how
[14:29] is what I
[14:31] basically start to figure out over the
[14:33] past few years and that became the talk
[14:36] that I gave last year at Sentinel
[14:38] Trauma, which now requires
[14:41] areas above that brain stem area
[14:45] controlling polyvagal systems
[14:49] to utilize molecules, basically
[14:52] neuropeptides and this is my wife's
[14:54] Sue's work on vasopressin and oxytocin
[14:58] because what those peptides do is they
[15:00] basically literally
[15:03] block the system into a state.
[15:07] They change it, but they're also
[15:09] involved in the recovery of it. And so
[15:12] what you find out is
[15:14] you don't get out of the trauma cycle by
[15:17] being aggressive with a client.
[15:20] You start understanding that the
[15:22] principles of signals of safety are what
[15:26] soften the innocent circuits or bonds of
[15:30] that persistent
[15:33] traumatic response. I call it now a
[15:36] traumatic autonomic imprint.
[15:39] Or some wording like that. It's an
[15:40] imprint. The body gets stuck into that
[15:43] state. And actually, when you listen to
[15:45] all my
[15:47] expert therapists, they talk about the
[15:50] imprinted types of behaviors, imprinted
[15:53] types of responses
[15:55] that get triggered and then the system
[15:57] knows where it goes. Where it it goes
[16:00] into that state. And that's an imprint.
[16:03] If we think about imprinting coming from
[16:05] animal behavior, think about the duck or
[16:09] the
[16:10] that comes out of the shell and sees a
[16:12] something moving in front of them.
[16:13] >> Yeah.
[16:14] >> That's the mother. It's an imprint. The
[16:16] nervous system is prepared for its
[16:18] survival to follow that. Well,
[16:22] we have a similar thing in us.
[16:24] We have an autonomic imprint when we get
[16:26] that instant dorsal vagal in the gut
[16:29] feeling
[16:30] that is a life threat feeling,
[16:32] it doesn't disappear.
[16:34] It gets triggered. And that's where
[16:36] associations of the triggering and
[16:38] higher brain structures, you get
[16:40] consolidation that get linked to those
[16:43] feelings. So, the question is we can now
[16:46] hypothetically map out how persistence
[16:49] occurs.
[16:51] And we can also map out strategies of
[16:55] how to in essence dissolve those
[16:59] bonds that create
[17:00] that consolidated persistence. And they
[17:03] come it's really ends up being quite
[17:05] simple. It it's ends up saying that the
[17:08] successful therapeutic models work on
[17:12] enabling the body to have windows of
[17:15] opportunities to feel safe. And they
[17:18] like somatic experiencing and Pat
[17:21] Ogden's psycho sensory psychomotor
[17:23] therapy, they're all about the
[17:25] experience of of feeling safe in windows
[17:29] and expanding them. It's titration. And
[17:32] what I've been working on is saying
[17:34] that's all about signaling the nervous
[17:36] system that's safe. And now I start to
[17:39] develop acoustic signaling techniques
[17:42] that allow the body or the body to move
[17:44] into a state of safety. And that's what
[17:47] we were using with the long COVID study.
[17:49] And that's why you start seeing the the
[17:52] profile of symptoms starting to
[17:54] disappear
[17:56] or let's say becoming much more
[17:57] manageable. So let's use the term
[17:59] symptom burden. And what we're dealing
[18:02] with in the world of trauma, like long
[18:04] COVID,
[18:06] is symptom burden. And it's not like I
[18:09] want
[18:10] you know, my voice to be more prosodic
[18:13] or what my heart rate have more heart
[18:15] rate variability or rhythms. We want the
[18:17] symptom burden to be reduced. And once
[18:20] we start looking at the portfolio of
[18:23] what the symptom burden is, we see the
[18:25] architecture of what it is to be a
[18:27] mammal. And now I So, we were talking
[18:30] about what I learned or the history of
[18:33] this.
[18:34] And the history was whenever I start to
[18:37] understand what I learned from being at
[18:39] meetings and being in the world of
[18:41] survivors of trauma, I would make
[18:44] statements like
[18:45] my interactions with survivors has
[18:48] taught me what it is to be a human. Now,
[18:51] I have said that for over a decade, but
[18:54] now I can tell you what that really
[18:55] means
[18:56] to me.
[18:57] >> Yeah.
[18:58] >> It means that the features of this
[19:00] mammalian architecture, we don't have
[19:02] access to it when we are responding to
[19:06] the when we are suffering from PTSD or
[19:10] suffering from chronic illness, we don't
[19:12] have access to our own capacities. Our
[19:15] system is literally set up
[19:18] gatekeepers. It doesn't allow us to be
[19:20] in the states where we can heal
[19:23] physically and where we can be social
[19:26] and where we can even be smart.
[19:28] So, the physiology basically becomes a
[19:31] gatekeeper of entering into these other
[19:33] states and now the question would be why
[19:36] would you have a gatekeeper? Because
[19:38] when you go into those states, you have
[19:40] vulnerability and every trauma survivor
[19:43] trauma will tell you
[19:45] if I am told to relax, open up, I'm
[19:49] going to freak out because I feel
[19:51] vulnerable.
[19:52] So, the issue is it's not that you can't
[19:54] trigger the body. You can trigger the
[19:57] body to be open, but the interpretation
[20:01] of that bodily feeling is different when
[20:04] someone has a traumatic experience. That
[20:06] autonomic imprint says when I become
[20:09] accessible,
[20:11] I'm aggressively going to get out of
[20:12] here.
[20:13] >> What it makes me think of
[20:15] you know, the imprinting
[20:17] I I I'd say the word like blueprints and
[20:19] I'm even thinking of book I've been
[20:20] reading through lately
[20:22] unlocking the emotional brain about like
[20:25] memory consolidation
[20:27] same thing where they talk about that
[20:28] emotional learning implicit learning of
[20:30] like it's a schema that that it's like a
[20:32] mapping you said it it creates a
[20:34] feedback loop so that
[20:35] my body feels this like the interception
[20:38] the danger the threat therefore it says
[20:39] okay it's not safe and so it creates
[20:41] this feedback loop. I always think of
[20:43] like predictive text like the brain is
[20:44] working ahead or the body the like well
[20:47] it's predicting the problem is it gets
[20:49] stuck in that loop the trauma loop or
[20:51] this you know, burden loop um
[20:54] and we don't know how to actually get
[20:55] out think our way out of it cuz you
[20:57] can't
[20:57] >> You can't think your way out of it. That
[20:59] is the paradox and that is and that is
[21:02] the burden that people think that they
[21:04] are failures cuz they can't think their
[21:07] way out of it.
[21:08] >> Well, then you got shame. Then you got
[21:09] the shame piece, too, of like I'm
[21:10] failure, I'm bad, something's wrong with
[21:12] me, I'm broke, and then that
[21:13] >> See See, you you've heard the script.
[21:16] >> Yes, I know Yeah. And going back to what
[21:17] you said earlier is like I've seen
[21:18] scripts doing this, you know, enough
[21:20] times now, been meeting with enough
[21:22] clients that you start to see these
[21:24] template scripts. And again,
[21:26] >> Okay. So So, this is where you are.
[21:28] >> though, too, you know.
[21:30] >> I I I'd say to a person,
[21:32] >> [clears throat]
[21:32] >> if you do this with arms out, you're
[21:35] allowing your ventral side. How does
[21:37] your client feel in that state?
[21:39] >> Well, I'm sure not so that probably not
[21:41] so
[21:42] >> the issue is
[21:42] >> Because I see clients do this a lot.
[21:44] >> Well, [clears throat] what they'll tell
[21:46] you is
[21:47] they they have to do this.
[21:49] >> Right.
[21:50] >> And they because what they're saying is
[21:52] what appears to be accessible to to me
[21:55] or to you
[21:57] is vulnerability to them.
[21:59] And that means it's not the
[22:01] physiological state, it's what their
[22:03] body now has labeled that state, and
[22:05] that becomes that imprint.
[22:07] >> Right.
[22:07] >> And that is the complicated part because
[22:10] we think we can just put people into
[22:12] those states.
[22:14] They don't want to be in those states.
[22:15] That's what we don't understand. Yet,
[22:18] they want to hack it. They want to get a
[22:20] vagal nerve stimulate to put them into
[22:22] that state when their body will say,
[22:26] "Don't want to be there."
[22:27] >> Or yeah, that yeah. That's I think one
[22:28] thing I'm seeing as of late is some of
[22:31] the the hacking
[22:33] Um and I say that with quotes cuz I'm
[22:35] not knocking I think things can be
[22:37] helpful and useful. I've seen them be
[22:39] helpful and useful.
[22:41] But I think it's person context
[22:42] dependent and being curious about what
[22:44] is really going on and does this really
[22:46] help you cuz you can't hack your way out
[22:48] of it. I think of a client of mine,
[22:50] they have this pressure to like, "Okay,
[22:52] this week I want to get all these things
[22:54] processed and all the trauma of this."
[22:56] I'm like, "I hear you."
[22:57] >> Wow.
[22:58] >> You know, like they they By the end of
[22:59] the week it must be all done. I'm like,
[23:01] "What is this about? Like what is" I
[23:02] it's a Personally, I think it's a
[23:04] survival part of them, protective part
[23:05] that's trying to
[23:06] to like control how they heal. I have to
[23:10] slow them down often say, "What Tell me
[23:11] what's going on? Like, help me
[23:12] understand this pressure and the and
[23:16] shame and everything."
[23:17] >> If you go back a few minutes back in the
[23:19] in the dialogue, you talked about
[23:21] predictability.
[23:22] >> Yep.
[23:23] >> And the issue is predictability is a
[23:27] metaphor of safety.
[23:29] >> Oh, yeah.
[23:29] >> Now, for a lot of people, but for other
[23:31] people, violation of predictability in a
[23:35] safe environment is an amusement park.
[23:40] >> [laughter]
[23:41] >> So, and some people that's another
[23:42] predict you know, projective test. Do
[23:45] you like roller coasters?
[23:46] >> I I used to as a kid. Now, I'd get sick
[23:48] on roller coasters. I can't go anywhere
[23:50] near them.
[23:51] >> [laughter]
[23:51] >> Well, I went on every ride with the
[23:53] kids. That's what I did. So, that was
[23:54] the parent bonding. But, my wife didn't
[23:56] go on all the rides. She went on some.
[23:59] Uh [snorts] but, the issue on the I it's
[24:01] I like the metaphor of the guardrails.
[24:04] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[24:05] >> Uh let's say a Disney amusement park
[24:08] versus a county carnival. You know, you
[24:11] know that the the guardrails are there.
[24:13] So, now you can say I'm going to be I
[24:15] know I'm physically safe. Now, can I
[24:18] experience that visceral feeling of
[24:20] literally falling out of a 10-story
[24:22] window.
[24:23] >> Right.
[24:24] And that's the hard because they got to
[24:25] trust that the the the guardrails are
[24:27] there. And that might take time to
[24:30] relearn Oh.
[24:32] >> But, the relearning is the processing of
[24:35] visceral [clears throat] experience.
[24:36] >> Yeah, yeah.
[24:37] >> And that's where titration or let's say
[24:40] transitory bits. I visit it and then I
[24:43] can come back to it. I can't stay there
[24:44] very long.
[24:46] >> Yeah.
[24:46] >> So, so what let's let's roll back to to
[24:49] the book and the journey for a few
[24:51] moments.
[24:52] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[24:53] >> And because the issue of that is most
[24:56] people read uh let's say the
[24:59] read many of the people that are
[25:02] in the book in terms of our
[25:03] conversations are quite prolific in
[25:06] terms of writing books on trauma and and
[25:10] [clears throat] adversity. And the issue
[25:12] that a lot of people always curious is
[25:14] who are these people? You know, how do
[25:16] they interact? What are their feelings?
[25:18] What is their journey been? And part of
[25:20] what I want to do, I want to share my
[25:23] journey because my journey journey is
[25:25] not that of being alone on a journey. It
[25:28] is a journey with many other, I would
[25:30] say, family members. And it's uh
[25:34] kind of a a beautiful journey when you
[25:35] have friends and colleagues that you've
[25:38] met along the way
[25:40] who share what you want to do.
[25:42] >> I think that is an incredibly important
[25:45] >> Yeah, what I learned though, I learned I
[25:47] learned about, I would say, brilliant
[25:50] therapists, how they deal with people
[25:52] who are compromised. And I also learned
[25:56] that my skill set may not I'm not a
[25:58] therapist, but my skill set may have
[26:01] been,
[26:02] let's say, serendipitously directed in
[26:04] the right place cuz how I think. And I'd
[26:08] like what what they started to talk
[26:10] about me when I would be introduced as a
[26:12] scientist with the heart of a clinician,
[26:15] which I appreciated. But what I really
[26:18] want to say about that was I may have
[26:20] the heart of a clinician, I may not have
[26:23] the patience of a clinician. So, in a
[26:26] sense, the ability to to be supportive
[26:30] under adverse situations. So, we have
[26:34] our own skill set and we kind of like
[26:36] make it work in this complicated issue.
[26:40] And those of us who have, I'd say,
[26:42] tiptoed or fell into the world of trauma
[26:45] realize that it's a big world. And there
[26:49] are a lot of people that are in pain.
[26:52] And a lot of people's pain
[26:54] still is not acknowledged and not
[26:57] acknowledged in I would say a
[26:58] compassionate appropriate way. They
[27:00] still feel embarrassment and blame or
[27:03] shame. And so, I feel that it's you
[27:08] know, like
[27:09] a society that could cure cancer,
[27:12] you know, that gets people excited.
[27:15] But, a society that could structure
[27:17] itself
[27:19] to basically mitigate and ameliorate
[27:22] trauma is not discussed.
[27:25] Uh and whether we talk about hospital
[27:28] settings or educational settings or
[27:31] family structure or even religious
[27:33] institutions,
[27:35] and we start understanding
[27:37] what all these vectors or let's say
[27:41] social media, these vectors, and now
[27:44] we're discussing AI, these are vectors
[27:47] that impact on our nervous systems. And
[27:50] they have like I'm going to use the term
[27:52] a predictable impact. And we need to
[27:55] really understand that to make the world
[27:59] better. And making the world better is
[28:02] not taking away challenges, it's not
[28:05] taking away threats, it's taking away
[28:08] the probability of injury.
[28:11] And so, in a sense, there's nothing
[28:12] wrong with being challenged, with having
[28:15] demands, but our bodies need to recover.
[28:18] And that's where recovery requires
[28:21] signals of safety. So, it's not in a
[28:24] sense laziness. We don't want to take
[28:27] away all the challenges. Challenge,
[28:30] which is not life-threatening, is
[28:32] healthy in a nervous system that is
[28:34] resilient. And we have to understand
[28:37] that everything is about flexibility and
[28:39] resilience. That's what we need to be
[28:41] building. Totally agree. I'm thinking of
[28:43] a It's not just it
[28:45] We need We need the healthy stress
[28:47] because it's that pushing ourselves and
[28:49] not just ourselves in isolation, but
[28:50] within relationships. Pushing together
[28:52] to to overcome a a difficulty, an
[28:55] obstacle. Actually, there's a relief
[28:57] there. There's a connection point there
[28:58] of like, I can do hard things, and that
[29:00] feels good.
[29:01] >> Yeah.
[29:02] >> It's the [clears throat] very
[29:03] >> So, you know what you just described?
[29:05] >> Mhm.
[29:05] >> Team sports.
[29:06] >> Yeah, totally. Totally. Um, you know,
[29:09] well, I think of even doing hard things
[29:11] with my buddies. We'll do like hard
[29:12] hikes and tough runs together. It's like
[29:14] you you you you're encouraging each
[29:16] other to keep pushing and you feel good
[29:17] like, I did this thing that I maybe a
[29:20] moment ago struggled to think I could do
[29:21] or complete, and I did it.
[29:24] And I'm not alone. I'm with with a team,
[29:26] and
[29:27] we get this shared experience of
[29:29] connection of
[29:31] feeling safe. You know, all those things
[29:32] happen.
[29:34] And I love that. Even when I see my
[29:35] kids, it's like helping them push,
[29:37] knowing that I'm with I'm there.
[29:39] Like, I'm the guard going back, I'm the
[29:41] guardrail. Like, I'm not going to let
[29:43] you, you know, get traumatized, you
[29:45] know, get injured and stuck. It's like,
[29:47] I'm there to keep you safe
[29:50] and encourage you while also letting you
[29:52] struggle to grow and do the hard thing,
[29:54] cuz it I know it's going to build your
[29:55] sense of
[29:57] safety, confidence, and self in the
[29:58] relationship.
[29:59] >> So, I'm going to ask you the question.
[30:01] After you do your things with your
[30:03] friends, what is what happens next after
[30:06] the long hike or long bike?
[30:08] >> Well, usually it tends to then we slow
[30:11] down and have we talk and get food. So,
[30:14] more of like a venture
[30:15] >> Get food and beer or something like
[30:17] that.
[30:17] >> Yeah, yeah. Talk and laugh and hug and
[30:20] >> Okay, so, what are you using? What
[30:21] system are you using now?
[30:23] >> Social engagement system.
[30:24] >> And that's extremely powerful in
[30:27] shifting the state from being a
[30:29] mobilized state, and now you're creating
[30:32] visceral feelings of what we'd call
[30:34] social bonding,
[30:36] safety. So, you can actually see there's
[30:39] a time course. It's not like I've done
[30:40] this bit, and off seeing you in 2 weeks.
[30:43] You You have a closing ritual.
[30:46] And the closing ritual is extremely
[30:49] polyvagal.
[30:50] >> It's a It's like a good It's like the
[30:51] It's the social engagement imprint or
[30:53] the eventual imprint versus the
[30:55] traumatic imprint.
[30:56] >> yeah, but let's say it's coming back
[30:58] home imprint.
[30:59] >> Oh, I like that even better. It's coming
[31:00] back home to Yes, it's coming back home
[31:03] and and I love those moments. Um person-
[31:05] love them. Love them. Love them. Um
[31:08] and as as we kind of come wrap up, I'm
[31:10] thinking of with all everything that
[31:12] you'd reflecting on all these
[31:13] conversations and over the years and
[31:16] kind of the span and where we are now,
[31:19] I'm I'm curious like what is a like a
[31:21] pursuit or the next unanswered question
[31:23] given everything up to this point that
[31:27] you're like, I want to keep pursuing
[31:28] this.
[31:29] >> Well, it's not pursuing the unanswered
[31:32] question. I'm really saying
[31:34] I'm actually coming up with a literally
[31:37] a portfolio of how to deal with
[31:39] unanswered questions.
[31:41] So, it's kind of like the toolkit.
[31:43] And so, it's a toolkit that is is
[31:47] clearly defines what it can be used for.
[31:51] So, the issue is everything looks like
[31:53] what's it If you have a hammer,
[31:54] everything looks like a nail. The issue
[31:56] is that the toolkit is saying all the
[32:00] features that get disrupted
[32:03] when our physiology shifts into a state
[32:05] of threat
[32:07] are manageable
[32:09] if we have the right tool.
[32:10] And that means that if we have the right
[32:13] tool, we support health, growth,
[32:14] restoration, and our ability to be
[32:16] social. Because being social is also
[32:19] part of the feedback.
[32:22] We can be social only when we are in
[32:24] that state. But being social helps us
[32:27] maintain opportunities to be in that
[32:30] state. So, the issue is can I
[32:32] conceptualize
[32:34] the portfolio
[32:36] of situations or conditions and can I
[32:39] identify the toolkit that can be used
[32:42] that can be scalable so that it becomes
[32:45] part of how we function as a society. So
[32:48] I'm trying to think about how do I get
[32:50] this in First I'm trying to now define
[32:55] the
[32:56] range because we get into really trouble
[32:58] when
[32:59] everything when people see that what
[33:01] you're trying to do they think it's
[33:03] everything. Well, it's not everything.
[33:07] You ask a person who suffers from PTSD
[33:10] if it's everything.
[33:11] It may be as something as simple in
[33:13] their mind as I would love to be held
[33:16] safely in the arms of another, but you
[33:18] know, I can't. My body doesn't allow it.
[33:21] >> [snorts]
[33:21] >> So but when we start understanding that
[33:24] response it's not merely not being held
[33:27] in the arms of another. It's a whole
[33:29] array of physiological state shifts that
[33:33] result in supporting a different
[33:37] a configuration of behavior. And that
[33:39] portfolio that that toolkit
[33:44] the portfolio is the paper I'm working
[33:46] on now. So
[33:49] it's in revision
[33:51] and when I get off this I go back to it.
[33:54] >> Yes. Yes. Yes.
[33:55] >> And the point is that that tells you the
[34:00] the realm or the arena.
[34:02] And then the treatment models have to
[34:04] deal with you. It's like prosody. It's
[34:07] like somatics. It's like oxytocin. It's
[34:10] like vagal nerve stimulation. It's like
[34:12] singing. It's like being with friends.
[34:14] You start understanding the vectors that
[34:16] go into that architecture, the
[34:18] nourishment to it. And we have certain
[34:21] basic principles that we've known
[34:23] through I would say the human history of
[34:26] humanity and even beyond humanity. When
[34:29] you want to as it says make a pet feel
[34:31] at home
[34:33] you talk in a softer voice. You make
[34:35] sure there's food. You do this
[34:38] engagement behavior and you use
[34:40] ingestion
[34:42] to get the nervous system primed. And so
[34:45] we have to go go back. So we had this
[34:47] little conversation about the history of
[34:49] humanity. And part of
[34:52] breaking bread at someone's in sense
[34:55] having meals with others was extremely
[34:58] important. And the concept of of
[35:00] inviting strangers in, the nomadic
[35:03] worldview of basically when you're in
[35:06] someone else's tent, you everyone is
[35:09] safe. There's no aggression.
[35:11] Uh this whole notion of ingestion and no
[35:14] aggression as having boundaries for it.
[35:18] And we don't even think about it. We
[35:19] look at restaurants. Restaurants are so
[35:21] noisy.
[35:22] >> Right.
[35:23] >> People can't relax. And so people think
[35:25] that the noise is part of having fun.
[35:28] It's merely part of not experiencing
[35:31] these other attributes of interaction.
[35:34] >> My wife would totally agree with that.
[35:35] >> [laughter]
[35:36] >> The noisy restaurants. I would too as
[35:38] I've gotten older. It's I can't hear. I
[35:40] want I want a quieter. I actually I want
[35:43] to be by a fire is where I want to be at
[35:45] night and like that's my favorite talks
[35:46] with my family is sitting by a fire and
[35:48] it's like
[35:49] and talking and we we do
[35:51] uh little backyard fire pit. We'll sit
[35:53] in that my boys and my daughter will
[35:54] just watch the fire [clears throat] and
[35:55] talk and it's like I love that. It's
[35:57] much easier to pay attention to them and
[35:59] have them under
[36:01] >> Yeah.
[36:01] >> noisy restaurants.
[36:03] >> Lovely. Sounds lovely.
[36:04] >> Well, Steve, thank you so much and
[36:08] I am so excited for the upcoming
[36:09] articles and what you're doing in the
[36:11] toolkit and
[36:13] yes, to have this book and again, if
[36:15] you're watching now, this might the book
[36:17] may be out and then you could order it.
[36:19] If you watch before the release date,
[36:21] then you could pre-order it. But Steve,
[36:24] thank you and uh
[36:26] blessings to your work and all that
[36:27] you're [music] doing for us. Thank you.
[36:28] >> Thank you very much. Enjoyed the
[36:29] conversation with you. Thank you.
[36:31] >> Thanks for listening to Wired for
[36:32] Connection, [music] a Polyvagal Podcast
[36:35] produced by Polyvagal Institute. New
[36:37] episodes of this podcast are published
[36:39] monthly. Follow Polyvagal Institute on
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[36:45] dates. To learn more about Polyvagal
[36:48] Theory and support PVI on their mission
[36:51] to create a safer and more connected
[36:52] world, [music]
[36:53] visit their website at polyvagal.org.