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Inspiration

Transformation as a Cosmic Force: Soul Work in a Fractured World

East Forest
East Forest
Nov 12, 2026
10 min di lettura

Da eastforestmusic

Guarda · 7

Michael Meade is speaking from Bainbridge Island, just west of Seattle, where the Pacific waters curve around him like a moat protecting some contemplative monastery. But Meade is no monastic—he's a storyteller and mythologist whose work lives at the collision point of street-smart observation, ancient wisdom, and the raw material of human transformation. On a video call, he unfolds a deceptively simple idea that turns out to be the spine of his entire life's work: that transformation, not change, is the core dynamic of everything from distant galaxies to the human soul. And that we've forgotten how to do it.

Lettura · 8 sezioni

What Does Transformation Actually Mean?

The distinction Meade draws between change and transformation is subtle but irreducible. "You can change your mind several times a day," he explains. "You can't transform your life several times a day. Transformation literally means to move from one form or stage of life to another." In the cosmos, this principle is written in starlight: stars are born, they die, other stars are born. The cycle repeats across billions of years, invisible to us but constant. Nature writes the same script on a timescale we can actually witness. A forest grows upward, trees stretch toward the sun, they reach their peak, lose energy, collapse, rot back into soil. That decomposition feeds the seeds and roots waiting below. Death becomes nutrient. The forest renews.

For most of modern Western culture, this insight—that transformation is embedded in the fabric of existence itself—has been severed, filed away as something that happens to nature, not to us. "Modern people think that our nature is separate from nature," Meade observes. "That's one of the big failings of the modern world. But secretly, human nature is connected to nature, and we are here at our souls to transform just like nature, just like the cosmos." The "secretly" is key. The knowing is still there, Meade suggests. We've just learned not to look at it.

How Did You Find This Soul-Centric View?

Meade's own path to what he calls a "soul-centric viewpoint of being a human being" began with a wrong book and an aunt who couldn't reach the right shelf. Growing up in 1950s New York City, surrounded by adults who seemed to have surrendered their dreams and young people locked in territorial conflict, Meade was seized by a single question: what the hell happened? He asked his aunt for a history book. She was notoriously short. The bookstore clerk pointed her to a shelf. She reached, grabbed what she could, wrapped it. When Meade unwrapped it at home, he found Mythology by Edith Hamilton—and a flying horse with a warrior shooting an arrow at the cover.

"It's the wrong book," his aunt said.

"No, I want this book," Meade replied, already reading.

He read nearly the entire book that night. In those pages—Jason and the Argonauts, the grand narratives of soul journeys—Meade found what he'd been looking for without knowing it: a language of the soul. A way to understand that his own neighborhood gang wasn't just street chaos but a potential vessel for something archetypal, something that could mean something. He realized that "our souls are connected not just to the ancient past historically, but to the source of life itself." He went around telling people what he'd discovered. Everyone thought he was crazy. And like many people touched by genuine insight in youth, Meade had to live another twenty years before the culture caught up—or before he was willing to commit his life to what he'd glimpsed at thirteen.

By his middle thirties, the calling had crystallized. Meade understood that his life was about storytelling, and not just the words—he plays African drums while telling stories, weaving rhythm and narrative together as a single, soulful act. He surrounded himself with poets and poetry, another language of the soul. These weren't separate interests; they were all expressions of the same deep current he'd touched in Hamilton's mythology.

The Difference Between Life Purpose and Destiny

One of the crucial turns in Meade's thinking concerns the question of why we're here at all—a question that takes on different weight depending on which cultural tradition you're asking. Western Enlightenment thinking, he suggests, broke the world into a kind of cosmic accident. "It's a big accidental universe," Meade says. "Everything is random. Life is a lucky accident." Against this sits a different story entirely, one rooted in older traditions: that each person arrives with a purpose, a particular note to play in the larger composition. "Think about what is the purpose of life," he says. "The eastern traditions would say, you know, every being has a certain function, a certain purpose, and the goal is to awaken to what your purpose is—not to invent it, but to awaken to it."

This distinction—between inventing a life and discovering it, between the modern ego's claim to create itself from scratch and the soul's quiet knowledge of its own direction—runs through everything Meade teaches. In the Western framework, especially after the Enlightenment, the emphasis fell on personal achievement, on climbing, on the self as an autonomous unit making its own way. The East, by contrast, holds that "everything is threaded into the world in a certain way," and the spiritual task is not to become something new but to recognize what you already are.

What Happens When We Don't Undergo Transformation?

Meade witnessed the cost of this forgetting firsthand. At nineteen, he was drafted to Vietnam. Standing before his draft board as a young man barely able to stand up for himself, Meade made a choice: he told them he couldn't go. "I just said, 'Look, you guys didn't ask me. You're telling me.' I had to give up a lot of things," he recounts. The refusal wasn't brave in any simple sense—it cost him. It required him to shed layers of himself, to undergo a genuine ordeal. But in that crucible, something shifted. He became, in his words, "a mythologist not just a storyteller." The ordeal itself was a transformation—painful, irrevocable, necessary.

The counterpoint comes when a person never enters that fire. In modern life, Meade observes, many people avoid the deep woundings and rebirths that used to be built into a culture's initiation processes. A young person might experience their world falling apart—their relationships rupture, their career path dissolves, their sense of self fragments. The old cultural knowledge said: this is an initiation. This is where you meet yourself. This is where you learn who you really are. But modern institutions have largely stripped these passages of meaning. A person is left "alone with their own devices," forced to make sense of chaos without a map, without witnesses, without the assurance that dissolution can lead to renewal.

"The experience to be welcomed by a community" after ordeal, Meade suggests, is what we've lost. We're experiencing the breakdowns—plenty of them—but we're not experiencing them within a container of meaning. So the breakdown becomes just damage.

The Caterpillar and the Butterfly: Radical Transformation

Meade uses the metamorphosis of the caterpillar into a butterfly as an image of transformation so complete it borders on annihilation. "The caterpillar and the butterfly," he says, "the body gets completely reorganized. And the caterpillar, they had to name the cells of the butterfly to be in the DNA of the caterpillar because the cells die and become something else." It's not a smooth upgrade. It's a dissolution so total that new organs, new forms emerge from the very material of the old. The caterpillar doesn't become a butterfly by gradual improvement; it becomes a butterfly by dying into a new form altogether.

This is what genuine transformation looks like at the biological level. And Meade's argument is that human transformation operates on the same principle—radical, costly, requiring us to release our grip on the form we've been, trusting that something new can emerge. We resist this knowledge in the modern West because it threatens the ego's project of continuous self-improvement, of getting better and better at being what we already are. But that's not transformation. That's just polishing a caterpillar.

The Role of Breakdown and Ordeal

For Meade, breakdown is not a sign of failure—it's a doorway. He describes it as the moment "the world fell apart and then I find my way forward and I discover something else with my life." The key difference between a breakdown and a transformation is whether someone has a framework for understanding it, and whether they have a community to witness and support the crossing. Without those elements, breakdown remains trauma. With them, breakdown becomes initiation.

This is why the loss of initiatory practices in modern Western culture is, for Meade, one of the great catastrophes. We still experience the raw material of transformation—crisis, loss, disorientation—but we've stripped away the meaning-making structures that could help us move through it consciously. A young person in a traditional culture might undergo a formal rite of passage: a vision quest, a period of isolation, a ritual death and rebirth. The culture says: this is sacred. You are changing form. You will not be the same. When you return, you will be recognized as different.

In modern life, you just get fired, or your marriage ends, or you hit bottom, and you're told to see a therapist or pull yourself together. The ordeal is real. The meaning-making apparatus is gone. So people either numb themselves to it or are left trying to make sense of profound transformation alone—which is precisely the condition that prevents it from completing.

Dreams as Messages from the World

One of Meade's more striking claims is that our dreams—not just the nocturnal kind, but the deep yearnings and visions we carry—are actually messages from the world itself, not fabrications of our own ego. "They say it's a god or a goddess," he notes, referring to how many traditions frame this. "The world spoke to them directly, and they had the experience of being called to something larger than themselves." The ego's tendency is to see dreams as personal property, as something the individual mind conjured. But the soul-centric view suggests that your deep dreams are invitations. The world has something for you to do, something only you can do, and the dream is how that something keeps trying to reach you.

"Now they're trying to have big dreams, and so now they're just... the world spoke to them directly, and they're one of them." In other words, recognizing a dream as a call from beyond the self is the beginning of alignment. The task is not to invent a purpose and then superimpose it on reality. The task is to awaken to what's already reaching for you.

Where to go from here

Meade's work, both in his books—including his newest, The Heart of Transformation—and in his storytelling, invites a fundamental reorientation: away from the modern myth of the self as an autonomous, self-creating unit; toward a soul-centric understanding of human beings as embedded in nature, in community, and in a cosmos that is itself constantly renewing itself through death and rebirth. If you're experiencing breakdown, it may not be a sign that you're failing. It may be an initiation. If you're carrying a deep dream or calling, it may not be a personal fantasy. It may be the world's way of speaking to you.

The work of transformation, in Meade's vision, is not self-help. It's not optimization. It's not making yourself more of what you already are. It's the willingness to die into a new form, and the willingness to do it within community, witnessed and welcomed by others who understand that we're all, like the cosmos, like nature, meant to transform.

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Transcript

[0:01] [music]

[0:05] [music] Michael, it's good to see you

[0:07] again. I think it's been a several

[0:08] years.

[0:10] >> Seems like it. Yeah, been a while.

[0:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I was trying to

[0:14] think back [music] on where I might have

[0:17] crossed paths with you. And you we

[0:18] didn't really meet, but I remember

[0:20] seeing you at this festival.

[0:23] It was in Oregon. I think it was called

[0:25] Beloved.

[0:25] >> The Beloved Festival. Yeah.

[0:27] >> Yeah. Yeah, you were off doing your

[0:29] thing and I was like, it's Michael me.

[0:32] Oh my god.

[0:33] >> Yeah, I missed that festival.

[0:36] >> Yeah,

[0:36] >> there was such good music from all

[0:38] around the world and

[0:39] >> really a good sudden community would

[0:41] form.

[0:42] >> Yeah, I missed that one.

[0:43] >> Absolutely.

[0:44] >> That was a big time of co really

[0:46] >> like so many things and um

[0:50] >> I think tangentally at least we'll get

[0:51] into that but uh where where do we find

[0:54] you today?

[0:55] >> Where am I living? Yeah. Where where are

[0:57] you in this wonderful

[0:59] >> Basson Island?

[1:02] >> Just west of Seattle, floating in the

[1:05] middle of Puget Sound.

[1:07] >> Is that also where Paul Steammits hails

[1:10] from? Or is he on the

[1:12] >> No, different island.

[1:13] >> He's in Oregon, I think,

[1:15] >> but I'm not sure. He's not on Bashan.

[1:17] >> All right. Maybe it's Salt Spring. Is

[1:19] that another one up there?

[1:20] >> Well, Salt Spring is in uh up in

[1:22] Vancouver, BC.

[1:24] >> Okay. But some connection between Salt

[1:27] Spring and Ba Bashon because I'm always

[1:29] >> meeting people or people are coming on

[1:31] to events online from Salt Spring.

[1:34] >> Yeah.

[1:34] >> Yeah. It's another unique island I

[1:36] think.

[1:38] [snorts]

[1:38] >> Yeah. So

[1:40] since you're very prolific in your books

[1:42] and I have to confess I got to tell you

[1:44] this story. When when your team reached

[1:47] out about having this conversation I was

[1:50] definitely internally a yes. And then uh

[1:53] it was a long time ago and somehow or

[1:56] another uh I was sent a book and I'm

[1:59] like fantastic and the book arrives and

[2:01] you know eventually I pick it up and I

[2:04] start reading it and I was really into

[2:06] the book and it's right up my alley for

[2:10] a lot of things that I like and I I was

[2:12] into this and then I think last night I

[2:16] thought all right um I'm almost not

[2:18] quite done here so I need to do a little

[2:19] more research. So, I started doing

[2:20] research and I realized it was your last

[2:22] book. I got the wrong They sent the

[2:25] wrong book. And so, I

[2:27] I know that book real well. So,

[2:31] I dug up the one on the shelf there, The

[2:33] Heart of Transformation. I found like,

[2:35] oh, there's a PDF. It was actually my

[2:36] fault. It was deeper in the emails from

[2:38] a long time ago, and I started digging

[2:40] into that.

[2:41] >> Um, but there's crossover, right? I

[2:43] mean, these are these are

[2:44] >> they're related.

[2:46] >> Absolutely. So,

[2:47] >> I want them on the same island.

[2:48] [laughter]

[2:49] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but it's it's

[2:52] stuff that I think about a lot. And so I

[2:55] think you're writing a lot to me about

[2:58] transformation.

[3:00] And

[3:00] >> yeah,

[3:01] >> this is a phrase you said and I want to

[3:03] ask start with this about transformation

[3:05] being a core dynamic of the cosmos.

[3:08] >> All right. Now I think about that with

[3:10] the human experience, but can you tie

[3:12] that please? What do you mean the cosmos

[3:15] itself and transformation being a core

[3:17] dynamic?

[3:18] >> Okay. So cosmos is

[3:23] well most people think about the galaxy

[3:26] and what's happening is stars are being

[3:29] born and being dying and being born and

[3:32] so transformation

[3:35] which is different from change right you

[3:37] can change your mind several times a day

[3:39] you can't transform your life several

[3:41] times a day transformation literally

[3:43] means to move from one form or stage of

[3:46] life to another so in the galaxy the

[3:49] stars [snorts] uh you know they're born

[3:53] and then they die and then other stars

[3:55] are born and so the core okay there's an

[3:59] old idea

[4:01] um and it falls into the category of

[4:04] open secrets so there's re there's

[4:06] secrets in the world but the most

[4:08] interesting ones are open secrets

[4:10] >> and the core mystery of the world is

[4:13] life death and renewal or life death and

[4:16] rebirth Earth.

[4:18] So the very stars that we see at night

[4:22] are going through a process of death and

[4:24] renewal. So the cosmos is renewing

[4:27] itself all the time and it's doing it in

[4:29] in long periods of time. So we don't see

[4:32] that but that's what's happening. So

[4:35] then you go from uh cosmos to nature

[4:39] which is the other big dynamic that's

[4:41] all around us. And nature is the core of

[4:44] nature is life, death and renewal. You

[4:47] think about a forest. The forest grows

[4:49] up and the tallest trees stretch right

[4:52] towards the sun and then for some reason

[4:54] they stop and then they lose their

[4:57] energy and they collapse and they rot

[4:59] back into the earth. And down in the

[5:01] earth there's roots and seeds. And those

[5:04] trees that have fallen nurture the seeds

[5:06] that are about to come up nurture the

[5:08] trees that are going to come up. And so

[5:10] nature is constantly life, death,

[5:12] renewal.

[5:14] And then modern people think that our

[5:16] nature is separate from nature. That's

[5:18] one of the big failings of the modern

[5:20] world. Um when secretly human nature is

[5:23] connected to nature and we are here at

[5:27] our souls are here to transform just

[5:30] like nature, just like the cosmos. We're

[5:33] here to transform. This is also within

[5:36] the context of it's what I would call

[5:39] like a soul centric viewpoint of being a

[5:42] human being. And I I'm just a little

[5:44] curious like you know I come a little

[5:45] more from

[5:46] >> hanging out in the Bakti world a bit

[5:48] with Ramd Doss and and then I also hang

[5:51] out like

[5:52] >> um

[5:54] I I I was really into this book called

[5:56] Journey of Souls that is sort of but it

[5:59] very much is kind of how I see life and

[6:02] but I'm just curious like how you came

[6:05] to that point of view of what I'm

[6:07] calling a soul centric view because it

[6:08] is sort of the backbone of a lot of this

[6:11] thinking.

[6:13] Yeah. Well, I came to it originally uh

[6:16] through mythology.

[6:18] So, on my 13th birthday, um I my aunt

[6:22] got me a book. Um she had asked me what

[6:25] I was interested in and I said uh

[6:28] history uh cuz I was at 13. I was

[6:31] growing up in New York City and I was

[6:33] curious what the hell happened? Why does

[6:36] everybody in my neighborhood, all the

[6:38] adults seem to have lost their dreams of

[6:41] life and and all the young people are

[6:43] fighting with each other? What the hell

[6:45] happened? So, I thought history might

[6:46] explain it. She went to get me a history

[6:49] book. She was a notoriously short person

[6:51] and they pointed her to the shelf and

[6:53] she reached a book and wrapped it. She

[6:55] gave it to me [snorts] and I'm taking

[6:57] the wrapper off and she's going, "Oh,

[6:58] it's the wrong book." And I'm seeing

[7:00] this flying horse with a guy sitting on

[7:02] it shooting an arrow and I'm going, "No,

[7:04] I want this book." and she came, "It's a

[7:06] wrong book, but I want it." And I tear

[7:08] the rest of the paper off and it says,

[7:09] "Mythology by Edith Hamilton." I read

[7:12] that almost entire book that first

[7:14] night. And I found a language of the

[7:17] soul because mythology is a language of

[7:20] the soul. And I found all these stories

[7:22] like Jason and the Argonauts. I was in a

[7:24] local gang [snorts] and and you know,

[7:26] you had to be in a gang or else you was

[7:28] the victim of gangs. And so, uh, but I'm

[7:30] reading about Jason and the Argonauts,

[7:32] and I'm thinking, "Oh, that's what our

[7:33] gang is, or that's what it's supposed to

[7:35] be." And I was having all these

[7:37] revelations and the idea that our souls

[7:40] are connected not just to the ancient

[7:42] past historically, but to the source of

[7:44] life. I found that all out when I was

[7:47] 13.

[7:48] >> And I remember going around telling

[7:49] everybody, and everybody [clears throat]

[7:50] thought I was crazy. And so, I never I

[7:53] didn't get a confirmation of that. And

[7:54] like a lot of people, I had the insight

[7:57] at a young age. And it took me about 20

[7:59] years to really realize that no, this is

[8:02] what my life is about is about the soul.

[8:06] The soul is the connective tissue of

[8:08] life and instinctively I'm a storyteller

[8:11] and stories are all really about the

[8:13] soul and and how we connect to nature

[8:16] and connect to each other. So I got my

[8:19] induction into it at 13 and by the time

[8:23] I was in my middle 30s I had realized

[8:25] that my life is about storytelling and

[8:28] music by the way because I tell I play

[8:30] African drums while I tell stories. So

[8:33] somehow that came together and and of

[8:35] course that's soulful traditions and

[8:38] then I als I also always love poets and

[8:41] poetry which is another soulful. So,

[8:43] that's how I get there. And I'm I'm the

[8:46] same age as uh KD. We've had a few

[8:49] interesting conversations. Come He comes

[8:52] from the Bronx. I come from Queens and

[8:54] and Manhattan. But we actually come from

[8:56] the same background in an interesting

[8:57] way.

[8:57] >> Wow.

[9:00] Hey friends, just want to let you know

[9:02] that I'm going to be on tour in [music]

[9:04] Europe soon. Are you in Europe? Near

[9:06] Europe? Because I'll be at the Misti

[9:08] Festival in Lisbon, Munich, Germany,

[9:10] [music] and Warsaw, Poland.

[9:13] coming right up November 18th, [music]

[9:15] 24th, and 28th. And then we're coming

[9:17] back in February and going to be in

[9:20] places [music] the the starting February

[9:22] 2nd in Dublin, Bristol, London, [music]

[9:25] Stockholm, Zurich, Berlin, Lithuania,

[9:28] Zagreb. Just got a ticket link going

[9:31] live, maybe Amsterdam. [music] So go to

[9:34] eastforest.org/tick

[9:36] and get your ticket now. And I look

[9:39] forward to seeing you out there [music]

[9:40] on the road.

[9:42] So I think we've been told or I feel

[9:45] intuitively like the soul awakening on

[9:47] the individual level uh that that you

[9:50] know that that matters [laughter] and I

[9:53] think we're told a very different story

[9:54] maybe the opposite of that and so I

[9:56] think it's something we could I'd love

[9:58] to hear you talk about or address.

[10:00] >> Yes.

[10:01] >> So one way to look at it is that you

[10:04] can't change society at the level that

[10:07] the problems have developed. You have

[10:10] you have to be in a different level to

[10:12] change that level. And then as we

[10:15] started talking about the soul, the

[10:19] individual soul is one of the most

[10:21] important things in the world. Not that

[10:23] it makes us special or better than but

[10:27] because it's unique. So in in the book I

[10:29] talk about how each soul that enters the

[10:32] world is unique never to be seen again.

[10:35] And each soul that enters the world is

[10:37] gifted and aimed. And the question is

[10:39] whether the person's going to awaken to

[10:41] what their gifts are and respond to the

[10:44] calling in their life that gives them

[10:46] their aim and their purpose. Um and so

[10:50] um when we want to really change culture

[10:54] uh which you can also see as a change of

[10:55] a world view. In other words, the

[10:58] western world view that has been

[11:01] dominant for a while is now dying. it it

[11:04] doesn't it's not sustainable anyway but

[11:07] also it's just fading and the

[11:08] institutions are becoming hollow and you

[11:11] cannot res renew at that level the

[11:14] awakening of the individual soul when

[11:16] enough souls awaken um that's when

[11:20] culture changes and so this throws

[11:22] everything in the enlightenment western

[11:25] world theory upside down because going

[11:27] back to where we started from the soul

[11:29] is connected to the cosmos modern people

[11:32] have fallen out of cosmology. All

[11:35] traditional cultures all around the

[11:37] world, a tribe on the Amazon River that

[11:39] has 120 people will have its own

[11:42] cosmology and will have its own

[11:44] mythology. In other words, those things

[11:47] are essential to being human and we have

[11:51] disconnected from them. In the middle

[11:53] middle part of the book is about rights

[11:55] of passage because rights of passage is

[11:57] the process through which each young

[11:59] person would be introduced

[12:02] um to the heart of nature and to the

[12:04] pulse of the cosmos. It wasn't that

[12:06] you'd get initiated and become an adult.

[12:08] Those are modern ideas. The idea was you

[12:11] become an initiated to who you are and

[12:14] how you are secretly secretly

[12:16] interconnected with everything. [snorts]

[12:18] And so the soul was a key important

[12:20] element. And then there's another part

[12:22] in the book where I talk about the

[12:24] Renaissance

[12:26] because renaissance means renewal or

[12:29] rebirth. And the last time we had a

[12:32] renaissance that was recognized was in,

[12:35] you know, back in the 1400s. And the

[12:38] Renaissance came after the dark ages. As

[12:41] if to say you go into darkness before

[12:44] you can awaken to a a new way of seeing

[12:47] the world and even seeing your own life.

[12:50] And in the Renaissance, it wasn't that

[12:52] people were walking around saying, "Oh,

[12:53] we all have to paint differently." It

[12:55] was individuals saying, "I'm going to

[12:57] paint this way. No one has seen it

[12:58] before. I'm going to do it." Others were

[13:00] saying, "I'm going to do architecture

[13:02] differently." Others were saying, "I'm

[13:03] going to do science differently." And

[13:05] so, it was the awakening of the

[13:07] individual souls, many of we whom we

[13:10] know as as people to revere like

[13:13] Michelangelo and many other people. Um,

[13:17] and the Renaissance was a renewal of

[13:19] ancient knowledge. It it was called the

[13:22] revival of Platonism, the revival of old

[13:25] Greek mythology. And the idea that

[13:27] wisdom resided in the soul, that wisdom

[13:29] wasn't an experience you had. It's an

[13:32] awakening from within. And so, the

[13:34] Renaissance is the last time we had

[13:36] that. And I think we're at the end of a

[13:38] world view. And we haven't yet seen the

[13:41] world that's coming. So, we're in the

[13:43] middle space um of darkness and

[13:45] uncertainty and not knowing. And that's

[13:48] exactly where change happens. And the

[13:51] not knowing, if we accept we don't know

[13:53] what's coming next, we're closer to

[13:55] awakening to who we are and and why

[13:58] we're here.

[14:01] >> What What's the difference to you

[14:02] between fate and destiny? Just so we can

[14:04] define that.

[14:06] >> So, I wrote a book on that. and and and

[14:09] that was me struggling with the idea of

[14:11] limitation, right? So that we all have

[14:14] limits. To be born is to have limits.

[14:16] You have to be born in a place. You have

[14:18] to be born at a time. You have to be

[14:20] born to a family. And all of those

[14:21] things are somewhat limiting. So fate is

[14:26] is the old idea not that everything is

[14:27] predetermined. That's a modern

[14:29] misunderstanding of fate. Actually, the

[14:31] word fate means to be tied by a thread

[14:34] that is threaded into the world in a

[14:36] specific way. And so our fate, we begin

[14:39] with our limitations. Nowadays, people

[14:42] think about DNA and your DNA is going to

[14:45] make you predisposed to certain diseases

[14:47] and all that kind. Well, the ancient

[14:49] people thought of that as fate. Um, and

[14:51] so fate is what limits us. Destiny is

[14:55] what calls to us to transform beyond the

[14:58] limits uh of our fate. And then there's

[15:01] there's a thing called the twist of

[15:03] fate. And the twist of fate is when we

[15:06] accept our fate like you know all right

[15:08] damn it I'm I'm this person I'm this

[15:10] size I'm this way if I accept that then

[15:14] all of a sudden you get the twist of

[15:15] fate and it reveals the destiny and the

[15:18] destiny is like the word destination

[15:21] it's what we're called towards and and

[15:24] again I'm saying these old things about

[15:26] the soul each human soul is valuable and

[15:29] important because it has dignity to

[15:31] begin with it has nobility it has gifts

[15:33] and aims and it has a destiny. And when

[15:36] people are living their destiny, that's

[15:38] all the people that we we revere and

[15:40] that we love or we we um use as models.

[15:44] They're all people that lived into their

[15:47] uh they accepted their fate and lived

[15:48] into their destiny. And this is a time

[15:52] where we are struggling with fate and

[15:54] destiny. All the cultures in the world

[15:56] are now polarized and struggling. But

[15:59] like the recent election in the United

[16:01] States was a transformational, they call

[16:04] it a change election. It was more than

[16:05] change. It was transformational. And

[16:08] I've been saying when we're in the

[16:10] polarization, we're closer to

[16:12] transformation. When we're in the

[16:14] darkness of not knowing, we're closer to

[16:16] awakening.

[16:18] >> Well, hopefully that's some kind of

[16:19] solace for such a stressful time. I mean

[16:22] what do you think are the the biggest

[16:24] factors that are holding individuals

[16:26] back typically today in modernity from

[16:29] their destiny?

[16:31] >> Well, the first thing starts with not

[16:33] knowing that everyone is gifted and

[16:35] named. We have forgotten really major

[16:39] things and so the most people if you

[16:42] talk to them think they're empty inside

[16:45] or that they are an accidental person in

[16:48] a big accidental universe. I'm telling

[16:50] you to be modern is to be lost because

[16:53] we've lost so much. Like when they were

[16:56] changing astronomy, it went through a

[16:58] series of things. Everybody thought the

[17:00] earth is at the center. Then they

[17:01] thought the sun is at the center. Then

[17:03] they got better telescopes and they said

[17:05] there is no center. And they

[17:07] misunderstood what they were seeing.

[17:09] It's not that there's no center. It's

[17:11] that the center is everywhere.

[17:13] Wherever you are, you are really close

[17:15] to the center if you are awake and and

[17:17] aware. So they misunderstood what they

[17:20] were seeing because they were seeing it

[17:21] literally. So a modern person thinks

[17:24] they're born into an accidental universe

[17:27] and that would make you an accidental

[17:29] person. The two big views of the nature

[17:33] of the human soul are one the Latin is

[17:36] tabularasa. The soul is blank. You're

[17:40] born your family writes on you. Your

[17:42] siblings write on you. The kids at

[17:44] school write on you. The neighborhood

[17:46] writes on you. Eventually, you're the

[17:47] sum of all those things written on you.

[17:50] That's one story. The other story is

[17:52] you're born as a unique person with not

[17:55] just gifted, but you're aimed. And that

[17:57] we're all called to do something

[17:59] meaningful in life. It doesn't mean

[18:01] everybody's going to be loud and

[18:03] expressive. It means everybody has

[18:05] meaning and everybody can have purpose.

[18:08] >> Yeah. It sounds like you're saying that

[18:12] expressing your unique gifts is the

[18:14] critical element to really the

[18:17] transformation that wants to occur

[18:19] collectively.

[18:21] >> Yes.

[18:22] >> So if that's true

[18:25] like that does go against in many ways

[18:27] the con the current out there. It's like

[18:30] it's not about scale,

[18:33] right? And and that's hard because we're

[18:36] in a very quantified world where

[18:38] everything is about scale. I mean,

[18:39] matter of fact, and you can't deny that

[18:42] like something bigger is physically

[18:43] bigger. Like the richest man in the

[18:45] world, we all it's like that guy's has

[18:47] trillion dollars. Look at the power he

[18:48] has. And people, it changes the way you

[18:50] think about what is the purpose of life

[18:52] and what am I trying to attain. And yet

[18:55] Ramdas had that wonderful line about the

[18:56] real work being in the privacy of your

[18:58] own heart. It just when you say it, it

[19:01] just you're just like you know the truth

[19:04] in the privacy of your own heart. Yes.

[19:06] >> But it's not validated elsewhere. And so

[19:08] I'm just I want to just double click on

[19:11] that about today. You know, people are

[19:13] like

[19:13] >> they're they're anestizing we all are

[19:15] anesthetizing ourselves on one hand as a

[19:17] way to deal with everything.

[19:20] >> But that message we're anestizing

[19:21] ourselves with is that it's about the

[19:23] other. It's about scale. It's about, you

[19:25] know,

[19:26] >> no. Well, and and once we know

[19:28] ourselves, we're more open to others.

[19:32] >> A person who doesn't know themselves has

[19:35] to otherize other people to feel safe. A

[19:39] person because everyone is born with

[19:41] dignity and nobility. The more we know

[19:44] ourselves, the more respectful we are of

[19:47] other people and the more we can imagine

[19:49] them finding their gifts and living

[19:51] their destiny. So it's really critical

[19:54] to individual life and to social human

[19:56] society. But you know you're mentioning

[19:59] Ram Das and I think we already mentioned

[20:01] Krishna Das. So what are the stories

[20:04] there? I mean those were American youth

[20:08] that went off to India and learned the

[20:10] the ancient traditions of India which

[20:13] are based on the idea that what the

[20:16] knowledge you're looking for is inside

[20:17] you. that stuff they brought they were

[20:20] amongst the people bringing really

[20:23] eastern mythology and psychology and

[20:26] philosophy into the west. It was really

[20:28] important because the west was

[20:30] pretending what you're looking for is

[20:32] outside you

[20:33] >> and so that they were the they were

[20:36] crossing the river of time to bring

[20:38] ancient stuff into contemporary American

[20:40] awareness and it has worked. I mean, you

[20:43] know, every uh strip mall center has a

[20:47] yoga studio now. Something really

[20:49] happened and and the west was ready for

[20:52] this because the the west on its own

[20:54] becomes neihilistic.

[20:56] It becomes fatalistic

[20:58] and and the east is not that way. But

[21:01] the same ideas you could find in ancient

[21:03] India uh you can also find in tribal

[21:06] groups in indigenous places around the

[21:08] world too. It's what I call the open

[21:11] secrets about the heart and about

[21:14] purpose and about meaning and about

[21:16] giftedness you know because you know and

[21:19] going back to Krishna Das and going back

[21:22] to um kind of a core thing about the

[21:25] heart because kran and that kind of

[21:28] music is from the heart bakti is heart

[21:31] and so the tradition in bakti india had

[21:34] had the cast and they had a lot of stuff

[21:35] that wasn't that healthy but bakti

[21:38] everybody was invited and everybody was

[21:40] equal. And so the fact that that came

[21:43] over here and has become a thing here is

[21:46] not accidental. It actually resonates

[21:49] with the deep sense that you were

[21:50] referring to where you know something at

[21:52] your heart and you really don't need a

[21:54] bunch of people to tell you what's right

[21:56] right and what's wrong. There's things

[21:58] we know. And the book, the new book is

[22:02] called the heart of transformation

[22:04] because it's a heart change that changes

[22:07] everything. And I refer to it as the

[22:09] heart within the heart which would be

[22:12] the essence of bakti as well as the

[22:14] essence of imagination creativity.

[22:19] Hey friends, I released a new record.

[22:21] It's called Held 10. It is the 10th

[22:23] anniversary edition [music] of my album

[22:25] Held. That's an album I did well 2016 as

[22:28] it would be. The math would have it. And

[22:31] I just want to let you know that I

[22:32] released a brand new vinyl for it. But I

[22:34] I pulled [music] up the original

[22:36] sessions, remixed it myself, and we

[22:39] remastered it with Taylor Depris. So,

[22:41] this is not some AI thing where we just

[22:44] threw it up and changed [music] some

[22:46] thing to call it a remaster. This is a

[22:48] true remaster and a true vinyl remaster.

[22:52] So, the new vinyl is only 500 copies.

[22:54] [music] They are they have little gold

[22:56] foil numbers on them, so they are

[22:58] stamped. And if you want to get your

[23:00] copy before they're gone, [music]

[23:02] they are shipping right now. They're

[23:04] just coming into my house this week. So

[23:06] by the time this airs, uh, we should

[23:08] ship yours [music] out, too.

[23:10] Eastforest.org

[23:12] is where you can get a link to the shop.

[23:14] And we're even doing some bundles where

[23:16] you can get the vinyl, the piano sheet

[23:20] music, which has a bunch of the held

[23:21] songs, [music] and the held perfume oil.

[23:24] That is the third of my three perfume

[23:26] oils that I sell. So, there's a little

[23:28] savings if you'd like a early gift for

[23:30] yourself or someone else. Uh, and plenty

[23:32] more things in the shop if you want to

[23:34] get your holiday shopping done early. We

[23:36] appreciate the support. [music] Thank

[23:37] you so much. Yeah.

[23:40] So, do you think that if if it's like

[23:43] the essence of incarnating is

[23:45] transformation? Like that is the point

[23:47] of campus earth in a way is to

[23:50] fundamentally we're constantly that

[23:52] we're here to take something that is and

[23:54] transform it into whatever is next. And

[23:57] that's a messy process and probably an

[23:59] uncomfortable process in its nature. And

[24:02] yet we always have this viewpoint I

[24:04] think from where we stand that oh this

[24:07] is the craziest time we've ever anyone's

[24:09] ever lived or something. But I don't

[24:11] know it's probably always you know the

[24:13] dark ages. It's always been pretty nuts.

[24:15] Uh I would imagine you just knew less

[24:17] information around you. But do you think

[24:19] that's it? Like if we kind of accept our

[24:22] fates of that you're here to

[24:25] fundamentally get into that crysalis and

[24:27] become something new. That is the point.

[24:30] >> That is the point.

[24:32] >> We [laughter] we we are here

[24:34] >> get to it.

[24:35] >> We are here to descend,

[24:37] not ascend simply. We're here to descend

[24:41] into interior darkness.

[24:44] um in order to find cuz an ancient

[24:47] definition of the soul was the light

[24:49] hidden in the dark.

[24:51] >> So there's a light hidden in the depth

[24:53] of ourselves

[24:54] >> that that the western world forgot about

[24:57] even though it knew it. The Renaissance

[24:59] knew it. Um and so the gifts that we

[25:02] were talking about that are natural to a

[25:04] people are in the deepest part of the

[25:06] psyche and so are the wounds in the

[25:08] deepest part of the psyche. So in the

[25:10] middle of the book I take rights of

[25:12] passage which was a traditional thing

[25:14] that happened all around the world. It

[25:16] was an archetypal thing as a model for

[25:19] understanding how it is that we would

[25:22] have to go into darkness in order to

[25:25] awaken and how the awakening would be an

[25:27] awakening of a unique person. Um and so

[25:31] rights of passage is a pretty simple

[25:33] thing and it used to exist all around

[25:35] the world and it begins with separation.

[25:38] Right? So the at the end of childhood um

[25:41] the developmental process in western

[25:43] psychology is brilliant. They really

[25:45] know what's happening to the infant,

[25:47] what's happening to the 2-year-old and

[25:48] all that stuff. But at around 13 or so,

[25:51] the development that developmental

[25:52] process is useless because the next step

[25:55] is not developmental. It's

[25:57] transformational. And so a person goes

[25:59] from being a child and now they're no

[26:01] longer a child. And they don't go from

[26:04] being a child to a responsible adult.

[26:06] That's a modern fantasy. It's a really

[26:08] not a good one. The idea is not to

[26:10] become a responsible adult is to become

[26:13] responsible for one's own life and one's

[26:16] own heart and soul. And so the first

[26:18] step would be separation from the

[26:20] family, everyone you knew and everything

[26:22] you had. And you would go then into

[26:26] isolation, often into a dark hut. So you

[26:28] would literally leave everything to go

[26:30] into darkness. And then you would have

[26:33] what was called a brush with death. And

[26:35] then in the middle of that process, the

[26:38] next step would be limonality being betw

[26:40] twixed in between. You're not quite the

[26:43] newborn person yet and you're not quite

[26:45] the child that you were. And now in that

[26:47] in between step is where two things

[26:50] would happen. Essential to human

[26:53] transformation. And that would be one,

[26:55] you would become more aware of your

[26:56] natural gifts and and things that are

[26:59] part of what I call your genius self.

[27:02] And the other thing would be the

[27:03] beginning of your early life wounds.

[27:06] Because the premise of this is another

[27:08] open secret. Everybody who's born is

[27:11] wounded. Everyone and someone who says

[27:13] they're not wounded is one of the most

[27:15] wounded people you'll ever meet. Uh and

[27:17] someone who says they can fix everything

[27:19] is really wounded deeply and so on. So

[27:22] so then a person would go through these

[27:24] two steps. separation and then

[27:26] limonality between them between but

[27:28] awakening to gifts and beginning to heal

[27:31] inner wounds. Those would be the first

[27:33] two steps of init in initiation. And in

[27:36] traditional cultures it would be

[27:38] understood if you haven't gone through

[27:40] that you may not be an adult. And then

[27:43] the third step would be the young people

[27:45] having just found out what their gifts

[27:47] are, having become begun the healing of

[27:51] their own wounds because everyone early

[27:52] in life is abandoned and experiences

[27:54] deep fear of obliteration and stuff like

[27:57] that. Um, now the person is imbued with

[28:00] spirit, what we would call spirit, and

[28:03] they're coming back to the village or

[28:05] the community who knows what they're

[28:07] going through cuz they're in a

[28:08] tradition. And then the community is

[28:10] waiting to bless and confirm them as

[28:13] having changed at the core of their life

[28:16] which makes it is amazing experience to

[28:18] be blessed by a community rather than

[28:21] modern young people are literally left

[28:23] alone with their own devices.

[28:26] Traditionally young people would be go

[28:28] through a process and then be blessed.

[28:30] But in the meantime the young people

[28:32] coming back are imbued with spirit.

[28:34] They're alive. So they're bringing the

[28:36] spirit of renewal and revival to the

[28:39] community while they're being blessed by

[28:41] that community. And so the process would

[28:44] make awakened young people and revived

[28:48] community. That would be the tradition

[28:49] that was around the world until modern

[28:52] times.

[28:54] >> Yeah. I mean I think you're pointing to

[28:56] I guess a structural problem we have

[28:59] today in that we don't do this much.

[29:02] There's vestigages of it. So,

[29:06] [sighs and gasps]

[29:07] I mean, does that inherently mean that

[29:09] if if you essentially have a tougher

[29:11] childhood where you have to kind of

[29:13] figure things out on your own at some

[29:14] point in your life, you you're you're

[29:16] you're getting an advantage in a sense

[29:18] versus if you're pretty well off and

[29:20] coddled and handled off to college and

[29:22] still coddled and then you never really

[29:24] have to figure anything out.

[29:26] >> What for parents, all the parents out

[29:28] there, I mean, let's talk about this.

[29:30] like what are I guess dare I say some

[29:33] practical ways one could weave in or uh

[29:37] these elements of rights of passage for

[29:39] someone who's in their teenage years or

[29:40] what do you think or or maybe they feel

[29:42] like they've missed the boat themselves

[29:43] I mean what are ways you can

[29:45] >> well most people have missed they missed

[29:47] the last part of the boat

[29:49] >> you know like if I'm working with an

[29:50] audience I say how many people have been

[29:52] separated had an experience of

[29:54] separation like you got sick and had to

[29:57] go to a hospital and you were kind of by

[29:59] yourself in the hospital or you lost a

[30:01] loved one or you got kicked out of

[30:03] school or you lost a career and almost

[30:05] everybody raised their hand. How many

[30:07] people have felt caught betw twix in

[30:09] between not knowing what's coming next

[30:11] and and feeling you know that you're in

[30:14] the dark and your life is unraveled and

[30:15] most people will raise their hand. How

[30:18] many people have come back from that

[30:20] experience to be welcomed by a community

[30:22] that's conscious of the fact that you

[30:25] have transformed and are capable and

[30:26] willing to bless and confirm your

[30:28] experience. Hardly any hands go up at

[30:31] all. So what happens is this stuff like

[30:33] rights of passage is archetypal.

[30:36] Archetypal is an old world. Ar means not

[30:40] just old, it means ancient and original.

[30:42] Typos is a Greek term for shape or form.

[30:46] So there are archetypal shapes or forms

[30:49] and forms that are live inside us. So

[30:52] even though we don't have rights of

[30:53] passage, everybody is people are usually

[30:56] living in an unfinished initiation.

[31:00] >> And so in the middle of the book, I had

[31:02] a a problem that occurred to me that I'm

[31:05] busy writing about this and I feel like

[31:07] this is the time to talk about

[31:09] transformation because we're living in

[31:10] transformational times.

[31:12] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[31:12] >> And it occurred to me, well, how do how

[31:14] is why is someone should take my word

[31:17] for it or or how could what credibility

[31:19] do I have? And so I realized I had to

[31:21] tell a personal story very briefly. When

[31:24] I was 19, I was drafted to go to Vietnam

[31:27] War. Comes in the mail. Used to be

[31:29] everything came in the mail. Read the

[31:30] thing. Oh my god, I'm drafted. I wrote

[31:32] him a letter back. I said, "Look, it

[31:34] it's an unjust war. It's an unwise war.

[31:36] It's not even a declared war, so I'm not

[31:38] coming. But if you have another war, let

[31:40] me know." I thought I had covered the

[31:42] the subject. Well,

[31:44] >> I didn't get another letter.

[31:44] >> You were done. Yeah, I was courteous and

[31:46] everything. Uh I didn't get another

[31:48] letter. I got a knock at the door and

[31:50] the next thing it was you go to the

[31:52] induction center draft and if you don't

[31:54] go into the army, you go to jail. And so

[31:57] that caused a really

[32:01] where the hell am I kind of thing

[32:02] because I'm growing up in New York in a

[32:05] bluecollar neighborhood and my family

[32:07] thinks I should go to the war. Everybody

[32:08] in the neighbor thinks I should go to

[32:10] the war. I'm the only one. This is

[32:11] before the peace movement started. I'm

[32:13] just saying this is not right on the

[32:15] level of my conscience. So struggle. I'm

[32:18] only 19. I can't quite stand up for

[32:21] myself in a way. I go into the army. And

[32:24] I actually like the beginning of it. It

[32:25] was, you know, it was basic training was

[32:27] fun. There was a lot of you can meet all

[32:29] these guys. There was it was cool. Uh

[32:31] and then they started giving me orders.

[32:34] And then they tea tell us one day that

[32:36] if you're ordered to shoot someone,

[32:38] regardless if it's a child or a

[32:40] grandmother, you shoot them. And I said,

[32:42] "I'm not I can't do that." And the the

[32:46] officer that was giving the talk said,

[32:48] "If you don't do it, I'll shoot you."

[32:50] And I said, "Regardless of that, I'm not

[32:53] going to shoot someone, you know, that I

[32:55] think is innocent uh for reasons that no

[32:58] one can convince me of." Well, that led

[33:00] to a big problem. Anyway, the next thing

[33:02] they were giving me orders and I was

[33:03] saying, "Okay, I'm not doing orders

[33:05] anymore. This was my mistake. I think I

[33:07] should go home." And they said, "You

[33:09] can't go home, but you can't go to

[33:10] jail." So, I wound up in jail anyway.

[33:12] Now, I'm in jail. Guess what they do in

[33:14] jail? They give you even more orders.

[33:17] So, I just said, "Look, you guys didn't

[33:19] get the story. I'm not doing orders."

[33:20] So, then I'm in then I'm in uh what do

[33:23] you call it? I'm in an isolation cell.

[33:26] I'm in solitary confinement for months

[33:29] and and I'm not getting out and they're

[33:31] telling me I'm not and and they have

[33:32] hidden me because it had become a story

[33:35] and Life magazine and Time magazine were

[33:37] trying to find out about this guy who's

[33:40] you know refusing cuz most of the people

[33:42] were draft drafted like I was. So

[33:46] somewhere in the middle of it I realized

[33:48] I have to fast. I have to fast again. So

[33:51] I began fasting. So I ended there

[33:53] probably 150 some odd pounds. By the

[33:55] time I get out, I'm 87 pounds. I have

[33:58] almost erased my life. Um, but the

[34:03] strangest thing happened that in that

[34:05] solitary cell in darkness, literally, I

[34:08] could only see daylight by getting

[34:10] looking down the hall and across at a

[34:12] window where I could see a corner of the

[34:14] day. I didn't see daytime otherwise. Um,

[34:17] I was literally in the dark. Um,

[34:21] in that process, I found that I was not

[34:24] empty inside. I had to go down through

[34:26] all these layers. I had to give up

[34:29] [clears throat] everything I believed in

[34:30] cuz it didn't work anymore. I had to be

[34:32] give up all I was afraid of cuz it

[34:35] wasn't helping me to be afraid anymore.

[34:37] And I finally at the bottom something

[34:39] changes. And what's happening is I'm no

[34:42] longer alone in my solitary cell. I'm

[34:45] having visitors that no one else can

[34:47] see. and they turn out to be figures

[34:50] from myths that I read and liked and

[34:53] they're visiting me and encouraging me

[34:55] and even guiding me and I have to make a

[34:57] decision at that point. Am I totally

[35:00] losing my mind or am I actually finding

[35:03] my mind and I decided I must this must

[35:06] be my actual mind or now I would call it

[35:09] my soul. Um because they were

[35:11] encouraging my life and and not letting

[35:13] me actually give up on myself or give up

[35:16] on life. And so eventually I get out of

[35:19] there and now I'm I'm a traumatized

[35:23] person severely. So uh but I know

[35:26] something which is at the bottom.

[35:28] There's an imagination and there's a

[35:31] kind of a world of myth that is I have

[35:34] access to and and I have become a

[35:37] mythologist not just a storyteller but a

[35:40] mythologist that was waiting to be found

[35:43] by me and in my case it had this radical

[35:46] disscent. So I'm not saying everybody

[35:48] should have a story like that. I'm

[35:50] saying everybody's story is aiming for

[35:52] that.

[35:54] >> Aiming for the like fundamental

[35:57] connection to soul.

[35:59] >> Yes. And aiming for some other person

[36:00] there. Uh I met this man happened to be

[36:03] named Muhammad. He was originally from

[36:06] Iran but he wound up in Iraq. He got

[36:08] driven out of Iran because he was a

[36:10] freedom fighter and he was wanted. He

[36:12] went to Iraq. He got in more trouble. He

[36:14] got thrown into prison. This is how I

[36:16] met him. People he was he wound up in

[36:18] Canada and people were calling me from

[36:20] Canada and say you have to meet this guy

[36:22] because he needs to know from you that

[36:24] he's okay, you know, because he's been

[36:27] driven eventually to the United States.

[36:29] But it turns out that what happened to

[36:31] him in Iraq, they beat the hell out of

[36:34] him and throw him into this dark prison,

[36:36] leaving him there to die. And he comes

[36:39] close to death apparently. And then at

[36:41] some point he's awakening and he's

[36:43] hearing this beautiful music. And so he

[36:46] believes he has died and gone to heaven.

[36:48] And he's enjoying that until he realizes

[36:50] he's the one singing. [laughter] And so

[36:53] he had never been a singer, but in the

[36:55] depth of his broken body, solitary cell,

[36:59] he found his singing voice. And I'm

[37:01] telling you, he's one of the most

[37:03] profound singers I've ever met. And uh

[37:05] so we worked together for a while. And

[37:08] uh I would tell a story and then he

[37:09] would turn it into a song. and he has

[37:11] this amazing capacity to sing that he

[37:13] only found when his entire life was

[37:15] broken down. And again, I'm not saying

[37:17] that has to happen to everybody, but

[37:19] everybody has their experience where

[37:22] everything they believed in doesn't work

[37:24] anymore. where um [clears throat]

[37:26] they're kind of exposed in a deep way

[37:29] and what happens

[37:31] can't prove it can't guarantee it what

[37:34] happens is they awaken to something that

[37:36] is essential to them that was trying to

[37:38] awaken in them all along

[37:41] >> then in that thinking is is breakdown

[37:44] desperation

[37:46] stress whatever words we want to attach

[37:49] to it an integral part of this discovery

[37:52] I mean can you have it without

[37:54] some of the hardest things that I think

[37:56] naturally are human nature is to try to

[37:58] avoid them, but we're also saying like

[38:01] that is our destiny. Like

[38:04] >> yeah,

[38:04] >> it's important for these things to be

[38:06] allowed to occur, the fire to burn, I

[38:09] guess.

[38:11] >> Well, yeah, because see the the problem

[38:14] is the ego in a psychological term. So

[38:17] the middle of the book is transformation

[38:18] seen through the lens of human psyche.

[38:21] And the problem there is the ego. And so

[38:25] um the way I tell it, the ego forms at a

[38:29] point in infancy when the infant who has

[38:32] been receiving the loving glance and

[38:36] nourishment from the mother or who is

[38:38] ever mothering and realizes, "Oh, there

[38:41] must be something good in me because

[38:43] she's loving something in me." And the

[38:46] and the and the infant is beginning to

[38:48] realize this. And then it turns back

[38:51] trying to get that glance again. And at

[38:53] that moment, it doesn't have to be

[38:54] abuse. It's just the mother has other

[38:56] children. She has a spouse. She has two

[38:58] jobs. Whatever it is, she's turned away.

[39:01] And the infant doesn't feel like, "Oh,

[39:03] bummer. I'm not going to get that

[39:05] today." No, the infant feels like it's

[39:07] going to be obliterated. And in order to

[39:09] avoid obliteration, it forms the ego. So

[39:13] the ego is formed as a protective device

[39:16] not to feel obliterated.

[39:19] But then when it comes to

[39:21] transformation, the ego has to let go.

[39:25] In the case of the rights of passage we

[39:27] were talking about, it's the childish

[39:29] ego that has to let go. But it feels

[39:32] like death. That's why they call it a

[39:34] brush with death. And again, I'll go

[39:36] back to what I was saying about the open

[39:37] secret. The open secret is all of this

[39:40] is about life, death, rebirth. And so

[39:45] the death part is the hard part. Well,

[39:47] the life part at this period in the

[39:49] world is the hard part also. And so and

[39:52] so in the beginning of book, I talk

[39:54] about the caterpillar and the butterfly.

[39:57] And the caterpillar and the butterfly

[39:59] are two parts of the same being. In

[40:01] modern uh parliament, they're two parts

[40:05] of the same DNA package. Um the

[40:08] butterfly, the caterpillar knows nothing

[40:10] about the butterfly. Um and the

[40:12] caterpillar is almost blind and it

[40:15] exists by eating its own environment. Um

[40:18] and then suddenly it gets a signal. No

[40:21] one, this is the mystery coming in. No

[40:23] one knows where the signal comes from or

[40:25] how the caterpillar gets it. But it

[40:27] stops eating its environment and it

[40:29] forms a cocoon and descends into the

[40:31] cocoon. inside the cocoon. What's

[40:34] happening is in that darkness, the cells

[40:37] of the butterfly, which were dormant,

[40:39] are starting to awaken. So, the

[40:42] biologists now go in there and they look

[40:44] inside the cocoon. No one ever did that

[40:46] before. And and what they see is that

[40:49] the the caterpillar cells are dying off

[40:53] and the and the butterfly cells are

[40:55] coming awake. And so they give they have

[40:57] to name everything. They name the

[40:59] caterpillar cells larvae. The larvae,

[41:02] the word larvae means mask. And they

[41:05] name the cells of the butterfly to be

[41:08] the imaginal cells as if they get the

[41:11] insight that imagination is at the core

[41:14] of the transformation. And then the

[41:17] story is unless unless the caterpillar

[41:20] goes into dark and I'm equating the

[41:22] caterpillar with the human ego. Unless

[41:24] the caterpillar/larva/ego

[41:27] goes into darkness, it can't awaken. And

[41:30] even when it gets there, it has to let

[41:32] go completely. In nature, the

[41:34] caterpillar dissolves

[41:36] in order that the imaginal cells can

[41:39] awaken. And so psychologically, we

[41:42] repeat that. The old idea was you read

[41:45] the text of nature to understand human

[41:47] nature. And and so we are at critical

[41:51] times in our lives, we don't know what's

[41:54] going on. We lose our footing. Things

[41:57] unravel. something we hope for fails.

[42:00] You can everybody has their own story.

[42:03] And the trick or the deep wisdom is that

[42:08] when that's happening, change is more

[42:11] possible than at any other time

[42:14] change. But a lot of people want to

[42:18] participate and be on their path and be

[42:20] part of a positive change and

[42:21] transformation. But I'm curious if you

[42:23] have a pointer on how to help them feel

[42:26] that like they're on that path or

[42:29] they're moving in the right direction or

[42:30] they are participating. Like what are

[42:32] the ways that you actively participate

[42:34] for this unfolding?

[42:36] >> Well, I think everybody has their

[42:39] brushes with internal awakening early

[42:42] on. Yeah,

[42:43] >> I had my 13-year-old experience where

[42:45] literally if there had been a different

[42:47] point in history and there were people

[42:49] around that understood what was

[42:51] happening, they would say, "Oh, look

[42:52] what's happening to him. He's probably

[42:54] going to be one of the storytellers in

[42:55] the community, you know, cuz look at he

[42:57] got that story and he just read it all

[42:59] night long and felt like he's completely

[43:02] alive at all levels of his life." Uh,

[43:04] but no one was around to do that. So

[43:06] then went back into the cocoon and then

[43:08] it it surfaced again when I was almost

[43:11] dying. But while I was dying, I was also

[43:13] standing for something and I found

[43:15] something to stand with. So I think if

[43:18] people examine their lives, if someone

[43:21] is 24 and older, they have gone through

[43:24] this, it just wasn't recognized.

[43:27] >> So I think the first because it's

[43:29] archetypal. It happens to everyone. And

[43:31] the and like you know, I have friends

[43:33] that got kicked out of school. Most of

[43:34] my friends got kicked out of school and

[43:36] and and their lives changed. But if we

[43:39] all had understood what was going on, it

[43:41] wouldn't have been, "Oh, they messed

[43:42] up." It it wouldn't have been simply

[43:45] that. It would have been, "Oh, they have

[43:46] to find the source of life somewhere

[43:48] else." And so, if people are honest

[43:51] about themselves, you can go back and

[43:53] find those moments that you didn't want,

[43:56] but which indelibly have marked you, and

[43:59] those moments can open up and be

[44:01] understood, could be learned from. So,

[44:03] that's the first thing. Um the second

[44:06] thing I would say about it is since most

[44:08] people raise their hands and say yes I

[44:11] was separated from everybody you know um

[44:13] at an early age someone I loved and my

[44:15] mother father sibling died and that gave

[44:18] me a brush with death and the whole

[44:20] world fell apart and then I find my way

[44:22] back eventually but I carry that with me

[44:25] then that's their story that's a

[44:27] brilliant story it's an initiatory story

[44:30] and and then what so this is the second

[44:32] point most people don't know we're all

[44:34] survivors

[44:35] We are all survivors. We have all

[44:37] survived trouble in the family. We have

[44:39] all survive living without a family. We

[44:42] all have survived losses that we never

[44:44] would have wanted. But now mark us in

[44:47] ways that you can't remove them. They're

[44:49] indelible. And so if people don't know

[44:51] they've been through that, they're not

[44:53] aware of how they are a survivor.

[44:56] Um, you know, I'll continue with my

[44:58] little story. So, I get out of that

[45:00] prison cell and and I don't fit back

[45:03] into culture at all. Zero. I'm just like

[45:05] a battle veteran. I can't make it back.

[45:08] And people ask me, "Well, what happened

[45:10] to you? You you know, you lost a lot of

[45:11] weight. What happened to you?" And when

[45:13] I try to explain it, it's like, "No,

[45:16] they don't want to hear it or they can't

[45:17] hear it." And so then I have to do

[45:19] something else with my life. And and I

[45:22] realize no one's going to save me from

[45:25] this. I have to find the saving inside

[45:28] my own story. So I started to seriously

[45:31] study psychology, anthropology

[45:34] and then mythology which I already knew

[45:35] was helpful to me. And then and then I I

[45:38] didn't do all that formally. I did it

[45:40] informally and you know so then I become

[45:43] a person that lives that way and talks

[45:45] about those things and and so eventually

[45:48] I wind up teaching third year PhD level

[45:53] psychology and mythology without any

[45:56] real credentials.

[45:58] I'm joking, but it's true because I kind

[46:01] of lived it

[46:02] >> and I refound this essence of my life

[46:05] through those studies. And so, um, so it

[46:09] becomes a part of me that if you took

[46:10] that away, I'm gone. If you took that

[46:14] radical experience away, then I'm not

[46:16] I'm no longer present. And that goes

[46:18] back to traditions you find around the

[46:20] world where someone will say that ritual

[46:23] made me or that descent made me. We have

[46:28] to pay attention to the things that made

[46:30] us who we are and they tend to be

[46:32] radical things. I mean what Krishna Das

[46:36] and what um um Ramdas and other people

[46:39] were doing was really radical. Going to

[46:42] a completely different culture immers

[46:45] having to give up their ego. What's the

[46:47] first thing they had to do? That's what

[46:49] all the teachers are saying. You're not

[46:50] even here yet. So far we've just met

[46:52] your ego. Give up that ego. Learn

[46:56] essence. learn wisdom, learn practice

[46:59] and bring it back. In their case, bring

[47:02] it back to others who haven't heard

[47:03] about it. So [snorts] that's the third

[47:05] thing. Um that is to say, you need a

[47:07] practice.

[47:08] >> You know, we need practices in order to

[47:10] sustain the essence of our life. We need

[47:13] practices in the modern world as a

[47:14] refuge. You know, the outside world

[47:16] would just turn you upside down moment

[47:19] to moment. So towards the end of the

[47:22] book I'm going to an old tradition in

[47:24] India that there's two roads of practice

[47:26] and one road is meditation contemplation

[47:29] turning away from the world turning

[47:30] inward finding that pool of stillness

[47:33] and bliss in the soul and the other

[47:36] other side of it is the opposite. The

[47:39] expressive creative arts making music

[47:42] painting create doing architecture doing

[47:44] all kinds of expressive things that come

[47:46] from the exact same place. The deep

[47:49] center can be experienced as the pool of

[47:52] peaceful stillness and can be

[47:54] experienced as the source of radical

[47:56] creative energy. It's both of those.

[47:59] >> Many people, especially western people,

[48:01] need both roads. Some people go mainly

[48:04] on one road, but most of us go on both

[48:06] roads. And in the course of life, in

[48:08] order to sustain the sense of self even

[48:11] after you find it, we need practices

[48:14] that give us those refuge places to come

[48:16] back to and to dwell and keep learning

[48:18] from. So those are three things that I

[48:22] think are essential and available.

[48:25] A quick note to ask if you've ever

[48:27] checked out the [music] council on

[48:29] Patreon. That is where I get to share

[48:32] demos and lots of live recordings and

[48:34] ceremony recordings. [music] And there's

[48:36] different tiers. One of the tiers we do

[48:38] a monthly Zoom. And on that Zoom, uh, we

[48:42] all get to sort of share space and

[48:44] witness [music] one another and track

[48:46] how we're weaving out there in the

[48:48] world. And then I do a live meditation

[48:50] with my music that is based off of that

[48:53] stuff that is [music] coming up and that

[48:55] is alive for us. And then I mix those

[48:57] meditations and share them uh with the

[49:00] Patreon. [music] And it's a great

[49:02] community, great way to support this

[49:04] project. And I'm really grateful. It's a

[49:07] place for [music] me to just go deeper

[49:08] and share things I don't have a place to

[49:10] share anywhere else. So check it out.

[49:12] Eastforce.org. Look for the link for the

[49:14] council on Patreon or go to

[49:16] patreon.com/theastforest. [music]

[49:19] And thank you to everyone who is

[49:21] currently a member, free or otherwise.

[49:24] You can be a free member, by the way.

[49:25] Just check it out on the council. Yeah.

[49:29] So, I'm I'm I'm kind of hearing how

[49:31] there's levels of acceptance uh and

[49:34] honoring that and allowing I suppose

[49:37] like this seems like a natural momentum

[49:40] or intelligence as well. like with the

[49:43] caterpillar into the butterfly. If if

[49:45] that works for us, then it's like less

[49:47] us having to squeeze it into existence.

[49:50] It has something to do with

[49:52] participating by honoring allowing and

[49:56] that participation having to do with

[49:57] things you just spoke about and and and

[49:59] practice because I keep coming back to

[50:02] this because I know people are

[50:04] there's so many people who you know good

[50:06] people everywhere who really they really

[50:07] want to be part of a positive change and

[50:10] they can struggle with like well how do

[50:11] I actually do that when I'm I'm getting

[50:13] all this information and I want to feel

[50:15] like I'm a participant

[50:17] >> um and not just feel like I'm knocking

[50:19] against this giant wall, this Goliath.

[50:21] And so I basically saying I feel like

[50:23] that's what we're kind of talking about.

[50:26] >> Yeah. And there are small steps or or

[50:28] other kinds of steps going back to soul.

[50:32] What we there's an ancient uh African

[50:34] proverb, what you love is the cure. The

[50:38] illness is life. What you love is the

[50:40] cure. So if people can figure out what

[50:42] they love, then they're on the path. And

[50:46] and you know and I mean by love really

[50:49] like some everybody most everybody likes

[50:52] music. There are some people that love

[50:53] music. Music is speaks to my soul. It

[50:56] resonates. It reverberates in my soul. I

[50:59] think my soul might be an ongoing wave

[51:02] of music. You know what it's like when

[51:04] you feel that then you have to go with

[51:06] that. And if a person just goes with

[51:08] that all of a sudden they're nourishing

[51:11] their own soul. And that is a form not

[51:14] just of aim and direction. It's a form

[51:16] of protection.

[51:18] >> We're protected when we're living

[51:20] meaningfully.

[51:22] And so in the modern world that is so

[51:24] unsafe and so uncertain, it's not an

[51:26] accident that eastern practices have

[51:28] come into the west. But eastern

[51:30] practices are both creative and

[51:33] contemplative and we need and can learn

[51:36] those. Um and everybody so that goes

[51:39] back to everyone has a calling. Everyone

[51:42] has a calling and um and then some of

[51:44] the people that we rever the most,

[51:47] you've mentioned a couple of them are

[51:50] people who responded to their calling

[51:52] and that wasn't an easy thing to do in

[51:55] in the sense that it's hard for the ego.

[51:58] >> It's hard for the ego to realize I

[52:01] really don't know. But if I can be with

[52:04] this person who knows more than me like

[52:06] a guru then I can be in that blessed

[52:10] condition where I can learn directly and

[52:13] because I love words and the origins of

[52:15] words I include in the book the meaning

[52:17] of guru which is an old Sanskrit term

[52:21] has two parts. G means darkness without

[52:24] light. Ru means light without darkness.

[52:28] A guru is someone who brings us from the

[52:30] darkness to the light we already have

[52:32] inside ourselves. And so who's a guru?

[52:37] Anybody that teaches us. A dog could be

[52:40] the guru. Guru. A tree can be the guru.

[52:42] Anything that brings the light out of us

[52:44] can be a guru. And so so if people

[52:48] realize I'm going for what I love, I'm

[52:51] treating it as if it's teaching me. I'm

[52:53] allowing it to teach me. They've got two

[52:56] steps already. Um, and then if you turn

[52:58] some of that into a practice, well, all

[53:01] of a sudden you have three things. You

[53:03] have a notion of what I love and what my

[53:06] soul cares for. You have a connection to

[53:08] what teaches and confirms my soul. And

[53:12] then you have a practice that sustains

[53:14] it. And so those aren't that hard and

[53:18] they're not that foreign even though

[53:20] some of them came from foreign cultures.

[53:22] Um, and they're easy to learn in a way,

[53:25] but the the first part is the hard part.

[53:28] Most people have a level of

[53:30] self-loathing that is really

[53:31] problematic.

[53:33] >> The, you know, the reason I tell my

[53:35] story of being in solitary confinement,

[53:37] everything else was gone. I was

[53:39] literally physically disappearing.

[53:42] And and and I didn't know cuz I was

[53:45] raised like everybody else. I didn't

[53:46] know it if there was anything down

[53:48] there. And what turned out to be down

[53:50] there was the essence of who I was

[53:52] supposed to actually be. That's why I

[53:55] tell that story. Not because people have

[53:58] to go through what I went through, but

[53:59] that's the story for everyone. And and

[54:02] we're just getting the wrong message and

[54:04] we're getting it early in life. We got

[54:06] the wrong message about the genius

[54:08] nature of the soul. We get the wrong

[54:10] message about having a calling in life.

[54:12] And we've got the wrong message about

[54:13] nature. And we have the wrong message

[54:15] about the cosmos. Because those young

[54:18] people going through the right of

[54:19] passage uh one of the ideas they had you

[54:22] get taken from the lap of your mother

[54:24] and you put into the lap of mother

[54:26] nature

[54:27] >> that was beautiful image they had but

[54:29] also they would be taught like in

[54:32] ancient India they would be taught about

[54:34] the cosmos and that we are connected to

[54:36] the cosmos so that when a person makes a

[54:39] meaningful change it alters the world in

[54:42] some small or bigger way.

[54:46] Last question is really more of a prompt

[54:49] where I'm [clears throat] just curious

[54:51] if there's a a myth or a story that

[54:53] comes to mind that to you encapsulates

[54:56] today just where we're at in this

[54:58] moment. And it doesn't have to be the

[55:00] perfect encapsulation or the past or the

[55:02] future. Just something that's coming to

[55:04] mind. It's like this is this is what

[55:05] needs to be told in this moment.

[55:07] >> Yeah. So the unfortunate thing about

[55:09] having access to myth as part of one's

[55:12] interior life is like five stories rush

[55:15] right into my life. [laughter]

[55:17] So so um

[55:20] so let's see I'll go this way.

[55:23] >> Okay.

[55:23] >> And I'm doing this partly because what I

[55:25] know about your background.

[55:27] >> Okay.

[55:27] >> So this is a Native American story from

[55:30] what we call the Apache tribe in the

[55:33] southwest. They don't call themselves

[55:35] Apache. call themselves da which means

[55:38] the people and it's their creation myth.

[55:42] So in the book I'm making the point that

[55:44] creation myths are actually recreation

[55:46] myths because the cultures that had

[55:48] their myths and worked with their myths

[55:50] were realizing every every time they

[55:52] turned to the myth they were learning

[55:53] about creation. So creation wasn't

[55:55] something that happened historically in

[55:57] ancient places somewhere. Creation is

[55:59] happening all the time. Any

[56:00] [clears throat] artist knows that but

[56:02] people used to all know that. So they

[56:05] tell the story whenever they're in

[56:06] trouble. And so it begins they have the

[56:08] the one who made the world. They don't

[56:10] say it's a god or a goddess. They say

[56:12] it's the one who made the world. So the

[56:14] one who made the world is finished with

[56:16] making the trees and the forest and the

[56:18] rivers and the birds and the fish. And

[56:20] something's missing. So the one who made

[56:22] the world made human creatures. So now

[56:24] humans come into the world. Typically

[56:26] humans are the last thing created. Um

[56:28] and so the humans are put down at a

[56:30] certain place. Um, and it so happens

[56:33] that as soon as they're placed

[56:34] somewhere, the humans start complaining.

[56:36] They don't like it. They're complaining

[56:37] about the place. So, this is a story

[56:39] that also helps understand that we're

[56:41] always complaining. It started way back

[56:43] at the beginning, but the one who made

[56:45] the humans and made the world is still

[56:47] close by. And here's them complaining.

[56:49] Said, "Listen, if you don't like where

[56:51] you are, you can change. Get up and

[56:53] move." And so, the people start

[56:55] wandering around. People are still

[56:56] wandering around. Anyway, they find a

[56:58] place that they like and the reason they

[57:00] like it is they start to rest well and

[57:03] have big dreams. And so now they're

[57:05] feeling like real humans. They're having

[57:07] big dreams. They're dwelling in a place

[57:09] that feels right to them. But in this

[57:12] world, things can only be right for a

[57:13] while and something has to happen. In

[57:16] the case of this story, what happens is

[57:18] some people got sick. It was so early on

[57:20] in creation that no one knew what

[57:22] sickness was and therefore no one had

[57:24] any idea of healing. So what they did

[57:26] was simply reject the people that were

[57:28] sick and they were just pushed out of

[57:30] the tribe. And so now you have a

[57:33] division in the tribe. And of course

[57:35] we're still having divisions to this

[57:37] day. But at that point there were four

[57:40] people in the tribe that thought

[57:41] something was really wrong. And so on a

[57:45] certain day they went out at the end of

[57:46] the day when the light was draining from

[57:48] the world and darkness was falling. And

[57:50] they each stood facing in a different

[57:52] direction. And as they stood in the

[57:54] darkness of not knowing, being concerned

[57:57] about people being rejected and sickness

[57:59] and all of that stuff, the one who made

[58:01] the world spoke to them directly and

[58:04] said, "For every sickness there's a

[58:06] cure. For every illness, there's a

[58:07] remedy. For every trouble, there's a

[58:09] solution. That's the nature of life." So

[58:12] now they all had knowledge. And after

[58:14] that, every night they would go out and

[58:15] each stand looking in a into the

[58:17] darkness, each looking in a different

[58:19] direction. And each night the one who

[58:21] made the world would give each one of

[58:23] them a song. They got different kinds of

[58:26] songs and they got stories. And after a

[58:28] while they all had songs and they had

[58:30] stories. And then the one who made the

[58:32] world said to them, "Now it's time to go

[58:34] back. Bring everyone together. Take

[58:37] those that are sick and wounded and put

[58:39] them in the middle. Gather everyone

[58:41] around them. Tell the stories that

[58:43] you've been that you've been told. Sing

[58:45] the songs that are in your souls. and

[58:47] bring put hands on everyone and you will

[58:50] be able to heal those that are sick and

[58:52] now [clears throat] you will be a real

[58:54] community because you will have healing

[58:56] power. So that's their creation story or

[58:59] one of them. And so to me that's where

[59:01] we are. We're we're um complaining about

[59:05] the world all the time. We're um not

[59:08] sure if we should stay. People in United

[59:09] States want to go to Europe or

[59:10] somewhere. Maybe they'll change after

[59:12] the last election. I don't know. But

[59:14] people are so insecure. people that we

[59:17] disagree with, we're rejecting so that

[59:19] people wind up feeling polarized and not

[59:21] in the same village, not in the same

[59:23] story. Um and so the right thing to do

[59:27] is to go and stand in the darkness and

[59:30] trust that there is something beyond

[59:32] ourselves that is secret connected to

[59:35] ourselves that is going to give us

[59:38] through come some mysterious delivery

[59:40] system the knowledge that we need the

[59:43] songs that we need and the stories that

[59:45] we need and then that original story is

[59:49] saying only four people change that

[59:51] entire culture. So that takes us to the

[59:54] place where the realization is

[59:57] everybody doesn't have to agree to make

[59:59] a change. That's never going to happen.

[1:00:01] That's not going to happen. Enough

[1:00:03] people, we don't know what the number

[1:00:04] is, just have to awaken to what their

[1:00:08] calling is, what their medicine is, what

[1:00:10] their music is, what their work is. And

[1:00:13] but when that happens to enough people,

[1:00:16] it begins to affect other people. And

[1:00:18] that changes culture. And when that

[1:00:20] change happens, it's transformational

[1:00:22] change. And when that occurs, we become

[1:00:25] not the potential victims of artificial

[1:00:29] intelligence, but in fact the agents of

[1:00:32] recreation. And when we're living as the

[1:00:34] agents of recreation, we feel satisfied

[1:00:37] because we're living a meaningful way.

[1:00:40] Uh but we're also protected when we're

[1:00:42] doing that. And when we're doing that,

[1:00:44] we're still a fragile, uncertain

[1:00:47] individual soul, but we're contributing

[1:00:49] presence and meaning and purpose and

[1:00:53] music and stories to the world. And that

[1:00:55] makes us really human. And if we're

[1:00:58] really human, we're okay with dying,

[1:00:59] too.

[1:01:02] >> Well, Michael me, I thank you for that

[1:01:05] story and thank for your thoughts. And

[1:01:07] the book, Card of Transformation, is it

[1:01:09] out now or is it coming out soon?

[1:01:10] >> No, it's out. It's out. You If people

[1:01:13] are in the United States, they can order

[1:01:14] it from Amazon or from our website. If

[1:01:17] you order it from Mosaic, our website is

[1:01:20] mosaicvoices.org,

[1:01:22] then I'll I'll sign it. You get a signed

[1:01:24] copy.

[1:01:25] >> Oh, cool.

[1:01:25] >> If you if you're in Canada where you

[1:01:28] have to get books from Banyan Books in

[1:01:31] in in uh British Columbia because we

[1:01:33] can't get books into Canada simply right

[1:01:36] now. Uh and if you're in any other

[1:01:38] country, it's being produced through

[1:01:40] Amazon on demand. So the book is

[1:01:43] available as a book in every country,

[1:01:45] Canada, you have to go through the

[1:01:47] certain bookstore. Um but also it's a

[1:01:49] available as an ebook and um and then

[1:01:53] we're selling it through our website. If

[1:01:55] you buy it through us, you're supporting

[1:01:56] our work and you get a signed copy. Um

[1:02:00] but yeah, it's available everywhere.

[1:02:02] >> What about an audio book?

[1:02:03] >> The audio book is coming. Is it you?

[1:02:08] >> Yeah. Has to be. It's me. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:02:11] That's that's how it turned out. But we

[1:02:13] were hoping to do it in, you know, at

[1:02:15] the same time as the book, but it was I

[1:02:18] was late getting it ready. The deadline

[1:02:20] was there. And then since then, we've

[1:02:23] just been doing interviews and all kinds

[1:02:25] of things and it hasn't been time. The

[1:02:27] audio the audio book is coming, but

[1:02:29] it'll take a while.

[1:02:30] >> Yeah, you're time rich. Don't worry

[1:02:32] about it. Um, it's all good. Um,

[1:02:35] [laughter]

[1:02:36] well, I really appreciate uh you sharing

[1:02:38] some time and and your thoughts. It it

[1:02:41] feels really important these days to to

[1:02:44] speak to this because it really is the

[1:02:45] core of the issue of like what's people

[1:02:47] often think in their heads like what is

[1:02:49] going on? It's like this is going on.

[1:02:50] It's like, you know, and it's happening

[1:02:52] and it's okay. And I think it's a

[1:02:55] permission for people to participate

[1:02:56] through their hearts in a way that feels

[1:02:58] natural. It's good.

[1:03:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it is our nature

[1:03:03] to transform.

[1:03:04] >> First it seems impossible and then it

[1:03:06] becomes, oh, I get it, [laughter]

[1:03:09] >> you know. And you know, it's interesting

[1:03:11] because you have a different name than

[1:03:13] the last time we spoke.

[1:03:14] >> Oh, is that long ago? Wow.

[1:03:16] >> Yeah, it is. Wow. And

[1:03:18] >> and actually and you already had a

[1:03:20] different name then. Anyway, I don't

[1:03:21] know. [laughter] But but here's what I

[1:03:23] like about it. So one of the initiatory

[1:03:25] rights of pastor traditions is when the

[1:03:27] young person would come back to the

[1:03:29] village they'd get a different name

[1:03:31] because they were a different person and

[1:03:33] the way that everybody would acknowledge

[1:03:34] they're different they would have a

[1:03:35] different name. So in many cultures

[1:03:38] having more than one name throughout the

[1:03:40] course of life was an indication of

[1:03:43] transforming that life and we weren't

[1:03:46] supposed to turn out at the end to be

[1:03:48] the same as the beginning or even have

[1:03:50] the same name. So

[1:03:51] >> that's what I told him.

[1:03:53] >> That's beautiful. Well, transformation

[1:03:54] as we said at the beginning is as a core

[1:03:56] dynamic of the cosmos and we're part of

[1:03:58] the cosmos. So

[1:03:59] >> we are

[1:04:00] >> it's good to remember it's okay. It's

[1:04:01] okay that everything is in in the

[1:04:03] crystis and we're in this liinal state.

[1:04:05] It's okay

[1:04:05] >> as long as we're changing too.

[1:04:07] >> Everything's going according to plan.

[1:04:09] Yeah. [laughter]

[1:04:11] >> As long as you understand the plan is

[1:04:13] life, death, and rebirth. Yes.

[1:04:15] >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, we can all get on

[1:04:17] board with that.

[1:04:19] Thank you, Michael. And um it's great to

[1:04:21] see you and thank you again for all your

[1:04:24] contributions and the words again. I'

[1:04:25] I've been really enjoying what you're

[1:04:27] writing.

[1:04:28] >> All right. Great to see you again. Be

[1:04:29] with you and good good luck with your

[1:04:31] work.

[1:04:32] >> Thank you. Please [music] stay in touch.

[1:04:38] Always see the [music] dangers first.

[1:04:39] Always protect your feet. Always be

[1:04:41] ready for cold. Always be ready for

[1:04:43] heat. Always know where good water

[1:04:45] source [music] is. Always master the

[1:04:47] skills necessary. Always get the job

[1:04:48] done. Always know your place. Always

[1:04:51] disallow foolishness. [music]

[1:04:53] Always rest whenever you can. Whenever

[1:04:55] you can.

[1:04:57] [music]

East Forest
ArtistEast Forest

Multidisciplinary artist Krishna-Trevor Oswalt, known as East Forest, makes lush ambient, neoclassical and experimental music, and his concerts and films reach from clinical resear…

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