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Inspiration

The 12 Doorways to the Sublime: Finding Awe in the Backyard

Andre Duqum
Andre Duqum
Nov 3, 2026
9 min di lettura

Da André Duqum

Guarda · 5

Robert Greene had planned to find the sublime in the Amazon, the Gobi Desert, and far mountain ranges. Then a blood clot cut off the blood flow to his brain, and the man who wrote about power, seduction, and mastery found himself unable to walk from room to room. His left side was paralyzed. He could not type. What followed was seven years of handwriting a book about the sublime, and a discovery he describes as the core of the whole project: the sublime is not only far away. It is in the yard, in the insects and birds and light, and it is available to anyone who learns to stop living inside their own thoughts. In a long conversation with host André Duqum, Greene laid out the framework of his book, which organizes the sublime into twelve "doorways," and explained why modern life so often leaves people feeling flat, restless, and somehow absent from their own lives.

Lettura · 7 sezioni

What Is "Dead Time," and Why Does Adult Life Feel Flat?

Greene's starting point is a feeling most people recognize but rarely name. "We live in what I call dead time," he told Duqum. "You're in a state of sleep. Life seems a little bit flat. You don't know why you're unhappy. Something is missing." Adult life, in his account, is measured in abstract units: blocks of minutes, hours, appointments, obligations. The moment is never fully inhabited because the mind is always somewhere else, planning, reviewing, worrying.

Children are different. Greene describes a child living inside time "like a river," meeting each day as if it were new. "When you're a child, you're seeing the world for the first time. You're in awe of everything. Everything was magical. That is what you miss. You miss that openness to experience." For him, much of adult restlessness is not a problem to be solved with more stimulation. It is a buried memory of that unfiltered way of meeting the world, pressing up through the noise.

He blames culture for part of the closing. "It's because the culture has programmed you to think a certain way." The point is not nostalgia for childhood as such. It is the observation that the habits of perception we pick up as adults can narrow what we are capable of noticing, and that the narrowing is so gradual most people never see it happen.

What Is the Circle of Everyday Consciousness?

To make this concrete, Greene uses an image he returns to throughout the conversation. "I like to imagine a kind of a circle," he said. "It's invisible to you, but your thoughts never leave that circle." Everyday consciousness is a closed loop of familiar concerns, habitual reactions, and inherited ideas about who we are. We can think about almost anything, but we rarely think from outside the loop.

The sublime, in his framing, is what happens when something breaks through that boundary. "The sublime are moments where you touch something outside that circle. It's like an electric shock." The metaphor is useful because it describes the experience accurately: the jolt is involuntary, brief, and often clarifying. A sudden view, a piece of music, the sense of vastness under a night sky, can interrupt the loop long enough for the world to look strange again.

This also explains why the sublime is hard to write about. Greene noted at the outset of the conversation that the sublime is "essentially experiences that go beyond words that are hard to verbalize." He called that difficulty a challenge he enjoys, which is characteristic of a writer who has built a career on unusual problems about human behavior.

How Did a Stroke Change the Way Greene Wrote a Book?

The stroke came without much warning. Greene was driving in Los Angeles with his girlfriend in the passenger seat when she insisted he pull over. He remembers getting out of the car, then getting back in, and then losing consciousness. She had seen his speech slurring and half his face drooping. In the hospital he felt something he struggled to describe, an elation so intense that nurses thought he might have suffered brain damage because he was laughing.

He later explained that a blood clot in the right side of his neck had stopped blood reaching his brain, and that "within 30 seconds if the ambulance hadn't arrived I would either be brain dead or I would be dead." Afterward he spent a week in the hospital with the left side of his body paralyzed. The ride home is where the old idea returned to him. He had been meaning to write about the sublime, and his own near-death experience seemed like a sign that the time had come.

Then the practical problem arrived. "I can't type," he said. His left hand was still frozen, and he was used to drafting quickly on a keyboard and editing as he went. Now every draft had to be handwritten, then edited by hand, then edited again. He had gone from a man who swam, hiked mountains, and mountain biked to a man who could barely move through his house. He compared his life to a bird cage, with other birds flying outside.

The book he ended up writing is shaped by that constraint. Greene wrote it over seven years, slowly, with every sentence passing through his hand more than once. The slowness is not incidental. A book about attention and presence was composed under conditions that made attention unavoidable.

Can the Sublime Be Found in a Backyard?

The turn in the story came when Greene stopped looking for the sublime somewhere else. He started sitting in his small backyard. "I'd realize, all right, this is my Amazon. This is my Gobi desert. The butterflies, the hummingbirds, these are my dolphins, right? This little enclosed space is full of all of this weird life." He listed grasshoppers, possums passing through, squirrels, birds, ants, and spiders. He began to look up at the sky and study the ordinary world with the intensity of someone who had nearly lost it.

He also describes what changed in perception after the near-death experience. "When that death feeling comes inside of you and you get past it, the world not just only looks different, it feels different. It's hard to explain. There's an intensity to the sky, to colors, to things that you see." He used that memory as a way back in, returning to the hospital feeling as a practice for seeing his surroundings anew.

The lesson is not that everyone must have a stroke to notice a backyard. It is that the sublime was never absent from the backyard. What was absent was the attention that makes the backyard visible. Greene's own example suggests the sublime is a matter of how fully we meet what is already here.

What Are the Twelve Doorways to the Sublime?

The architecture of the book is a set of twelve doorways, each a different way the mind can be opened to the strange and the vast. Greene named them in sequence: "cosmic, biological, pagan, childhood, neural, interspecies, love, historical, demon, aesthetic, dynamical, and death." The list runs from the scale of the universe to the scale of a single nervous system, from ancient ritual to the intimacy of love, and from the enchantment of childhood to the finality of death.

The chapters follow this sequence, and the conversation touches several of them directly. Greene pointed to the chapter titled "The Anti-Sublime," which he sets against the others, and to "The Cosmic Sublime," which opens onto scales far larger than daily life. Later, he moves to "The Pagan Sublime and Eleusinian Mysteries," where ancient initiation rites enter the discussion. The breadth is deliberate. Greene is arguing that the sublime is not one feeling but a family of experiences, and that modern culture has narrowed us to only a few of them.

The doorway metaphor is also practical. A doorway is something you can walk through on purpose. Greene's book treats each category as a route the reader can deliberately take, rather than a mood that arrives when conditions are right.

How Do We Face Pain, Death, and Mortality Without Turning Away?

The darkest doorway is death, and Greene connects it to a larger problem: our avoidance of pain and discomfort. The episode's own summary frames his argument this way. When we shrink from suffering and mortality, we lose inner resilience. When those realities are faced deliberately, they can be transmuted into acceptance and compassion, and into a deeper kinship with everyone who has lived, suffered, and died before us.

That reframing matters because it turns the most frightening subject into a source of connection rather than dread. Greene's own near-death experience did not produce a tidy spiritual conclusion. It produced elation, fear, depression about his body, and then, slowly, a renewed alertness to the world. The sublime, in that story, is not a reward for surviving. It is the quality of attention that becomes possible once the fear of loss has been fully felt.

Greene also draws on the idea of self-remembering associated with G.I. Gurdjieff. The episode summary describes focused attention as a way to loosen the brain's filtering. The brain prunes enormous amounts of sensory data so we can function, and in doing so constructs both our reality and a sense of a separate self. Focused attention can soften that filter, letting the world appear strange, vivid, and alive again. This is the same movement Greene describes in his backyard: the sublime returns when the filter thins.

Where to go from here

The most useful way into Greene's ideas is to borrow his method rather than only admire his conclusions. Start with the circle. For one day, notice how often your thoughts stay inside a familiar loop of planning and worrying. Then pick one ordinary place, a yard, a window, a walk you have taken many times, and look at it as if you had just arrived. Greene's point is that the world was never flat. We were simply reading it through a filter we had forgotten we were wearing.

For a deeper study, the conversation with André Duqum is the best companion to the book, since Greene walks through the twelve doorways in his own words and explains how each one connects to the others. Read it as a set of invitations. The sublime is not a rare event reserved for mountains and deserts. In Greene's account, it is the ordinary world seen by someone who has finally stopped looking past it.

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Transcript

[0:00] We live in what I call dead time. You're

[0:03] in a state of sleep. Life seems a little

[0:05] bit flat. You don't know why you're

[0:07] unhappy. Something is missing. When

[0:09] you're a child, you're seeing the world

[0:11] for the first time. You're in awe of

[0:13] [music] everything. Everything was

[0:15] magical. That is what you miss. You miss

[0:17] that openness [music] to experience.

[0:19] It's because the culture has programmed

[0:21] you to think a certain [music] way. I

[0:23] like to imagine a kind of a circle. It's

[0:25] invisible to you, but your thoughts

[0:27] never leave that circle. So we have

[0:29] cosmic, biological, pagan, childhood,

[0:32] [music] neural, interspecies, love,

[0:35] historical, demon, aesthetic, dynamical,

[0:38] and death, which we're going to be

[0:39] unpacking in this conversation.

[0:41] >> Yes. And the sublime are moments where

[0:43] you touch something outside that circle.

[0:46] It's like an electric shock.

[0:47] >> When you initially had the idea to write

[0:49] a book around this, you envision

[0:51] yourself traveling in the Amazon.

[0:53] >> Been sitting in my mind and then one day

[0:55] I had a stroke. Within 30 seconds, I

[0:58] would be dead. But now I can't go out. I

[1:02] [music] can't take a hike. I can barely

[1:03] walk from room to room. And then I would

[1:06] sit out in our backyard and I'd realize,

[1:07] [music] all right, this is my Amazon.

[1:10] The point of all this is it's like

[1:12] awakening up to the sublime and all the

[1:14] little tiny little [music] details of

[1:16] life. If you walk around today enclosed

[1:18] in your thoughts, stop for a moment and

[1:19] go, I'm alive. How did this happen? What

[1:23] are some practical examples? First of

[1:25] all, just

[1:32] Hey everyone, welcome back to the No

[1:34] Thyself podcast. Our guest today needs

[1:36] no introduction. He's one of the most

[1:37] prolific and powerful writers of our

[1:40] time. Many people know him for his work

[1:43] regarding human nature, power,

[1:45] seduction, mastery. Today, we're diving

[1:47] deep into the sublime and why it largely

[1:50] feels so absent from modern

[1:52] civilization. today. Robert Green, thank

[1:55] you for being here.

[1:55] >> Thank you for inviting me. My pleasure.

[1:58] >> The pleasure is mine indeed.

[2:01] >> What an incredible book.

[2:02] >> Oh, thank you.

[2:03] >> And work. And I know that when you

[2:05] initially had the idea to write a book

[2:07] around this over 20 years ago. Um, you

[2:11] envisioned yourself traveling to

[2:13] mountains abroad and the Amazon and

[2:15] swimming with dolphins and the Gobi

[2:18] Desert. And I would love for you to set

[2:19] the stage for what transpired with your

[2:21] stroke and how you had to rediscover the

[2:24] sublime in the everyday surroundings.

[2:28] >> Well, I initially got interested in the

[2:30] subject of the sublime. I think around

[2:31] the year 2000. I read a book

[2:35] kind of an academic book about the

[2:36] literature of the sublime. that the

[2:39] ideas seem so weird and interesting to

[2:41] me because I'm always looking for ideas

[2:44] that are not in the ordinary that people

[2:46] don't that you don't normally come

[2:48] across things that are kind of exotic or

[2:51] strange. So I wanted to write a book on

[2:53] the subject because it intrigued me.

[2:55] It's also a challenge because the

[2:57] sublime is essentially experiences that

[3:00] go beyond words that are hard to

[3:02] verbalize. So how you write a book about

[3:04] something you can't verbalize? I love

[3:06] challenges like that. Anyways, it had

[3:08] been sitting in my mind and I kept

[3:10] getting distracted from it and then one

[3:12] day I was driving my car in Los Angeles.

[3:16] Uh my girlfriend in the passenger seat

[3:19] and suddenly she starts yelling at me to

[3:22] pull over to pull over. I said, "Well,

[3:23] what's going on? What's wrong? She's

[3:24] just insisting I pull over." I started

[3:27] getting out of the car. I was all kind

[3:28] of confused. Then I got back in the car

[3:31] and everything started going really

[3:32] weird and then I was unconscious.

[3:36] I had no idea what was going on. She'd

[3:38] seen that I was really slurring my words

[3:41] and half my face was drooping in a way

[3:43] that was quite frightening. Anyway, I

[3:46] wake up in a hospital. I don't know

[3:48] where I am. I don't know what happened

[3:50] and I'm a little bit frightened and I'm

[3:53] a little bit something strange has

[3:55] happened because I have these weird

[3:56] sensations like a strange taste in my

[3:59] mouth of feeling something something

[4:00] different in my body has happened. I

[4:03] don't know where I am. Finally, I get

[4:05] into a hospital when they explain it and

[4:09] I'm just in this kind of very excited,

[4:13] elated, almost ecstatic state of mind.

[4:16] The nurses thought something might have

[4:18] I might have suffered some I had a

[4:20] stroke obviously. So basically a blood

[4:22] clot in the right side of my neck was

[4:25] stopping the blood flowing to my brain

[4:28] and within 30 seconds if the ambulance

[4:31] hadn't arrived I would either be brain

[4:33] dead or I would be dead. So I was very

[4:36] lucky. Anyway, they thought I had

[4:38] suffered some kind of brain damage cuz I

[4:39] was laughing and I was so happy.

[4:43] And um and then so I spent a week in the

[4:45] hospital and I'm still in this kind of

[4:47] elated mood, but the left side of my

[4:50] body is like paralyzed. I can't move it

[4:52] at all. And in the ambulance ride home,

[4:56] I'm kind of absorbing this very weird

[4:59] experience having like feeling a kind of

[5:01] death crawling inside of your skin, you

[5:03] know, hard to explain.

[5:06] Um I'm trying to just sort of figure out

[5:08] what it all was and then the idea comes

[5:10] suddenly comes back to me about oh the

[5:12] sublime. You've been meaning to write

[5:14] this book and it's kind of a book that

[5:17] takes you out of the ordinary circle of

[5:19] of experience in daily life. Robert, you

[5:23] just had the ultimate experience that

[5:24] took you out of the circle of daily

[5:26] life. You had something you were

[5:27] entering death at some point. So, I go,

[5:30] "All right, the gods, whoever they may

[5:33] be, are telling me this is the time to

[5:34] write the book." Um, so I get I'm I'm

[5:38] kind of excited. I get home. I'm going

[5:40] to write this book finally because I've

[5:42] been meaning to write it for so long.

[5:45] And then I realize that I was kind of

[5:48] like I didn't know what I was getting

[5:50] myself into because I can't type. This

[5:53] left hand is still kind of frozen. Um,

[5:57] so and I'm used to like handwriting and

[6:00] then typing really quickly and editing.

[6:01] I haven't, you know, I had a very fast

[6:03] typist, so I'm starting, oh, I'm gonna

[6:05] have to handwrite. I'm gonna have to

[6:06] handwrite this entire damn book, right?

[6:10] That's not going to be easy cuz it's

[6:13] it's much slower process. You have to

[6:15] like handwrite, then you have to edit

[6:17] handwriting, then you have to edit more

[6:19] handwriting.

[6:20] But worse than that, I can't go out. I

[6:24] can't take a hike. I was someone who was

[6:26] very active. I was doing a lot of

[6:28] swimming. I was hiking up in mountain

[6:30] taking very long hikes. Um, mountain

[6:33] biking. I can't I can barely walk from

[6:36] room to room. And so the confines of my

[6:40] life were had shrunk to like a pretty

[6:42] small space.

[6:44] I compared it to like being in a bird

[6:46] cage because I was have been flying all

[6:50] around and now I was sort of stuck in

[6:52] this bird cage and outside I could see

[6:54] other birds flying about like I was

[6:56] trapped and so I was kind of depressed.

[7:00] So I had this moment of ecstasy elation

[7:05] coming so close to death and at the same

[7:08] time now I was just like so led

[7:10] depressed about my body and everything.

[7:13] How am I going to be able to write about

[7:15] the sublime when I don't feel it? I

[7:18] don't I feel so trapped.

[7:21] So slowly, I had to return back to that

[7:24] time in the hospital room.

[7:27] It's, as I said, it's hard to verbalize,

[7:29] but when that death feeling comes inside

[7:32] of you and you and you get past it, the

[7:36] world not just only looks different, it

[7:38] feels different. It's hard to explain.

[7:41] there's there's an intensity to the sky,

[7:43] to colors, to things that you see.

[7:46] So, I had I kind of returned to that

[7:48] just looking out my the window in my

[7:50] office. Okay, I can get back that

[7:52] feeling.

[7:54] And then I [clears throat] would sit out

[7:55] in our backyard, which was very which is

[7:57] quite small, but it's it's very

[7:58] pleasant. And I'd realize, all right,

[8:01] this is my Amazon. This is my goi

[8:04] desert. The butterflies, the

[8:07] hummingbirds, these are my dolphins,

[8:08] right? This little enclosed space is

[8:11] full of all of this weird life.

[8:14] Grasshoppers, possums would pass

[8:16] through, squirrels, all sorts of birds,

[8:19] you know, ants and every spiders,

[8:22] everything you can imagine in this

[8:23] enclosed space. And I started focusing

[8:26] in on that and how strange and weird the

[8:30] world is, you know, the everything. And

[8:34] um and I would look up at the sky and I

[8:37] would see the clouds and the clouds

[8:39] suddenly struck me as strange things to

[8:42] look at. We don't think about our

[8:44] environment as being strange but if you

[8:47] do think about it it's very strange

[8:49] because probably there is no other

[8:52] planet in the universe that has clouds

[8:54] that has a sky like this. It's a very

[8:56] unique thing to planet earth. But who

[8:58] thinks about such things? Suddenly

[9:00] clouds were anyway the point I'm saying

[9:03] the point of all this is

[9:06] it's like awakening up to the sublime

[9:08] and all the little tiny little details

[9:10] of life. It's like chills passing

[9:12] through you continually as you start

[9:14] returning to the ground of being alive

[9:17] the world around you. And so slowly it

[9:20] starts coming back inside of me as I

[9:23] just calm down. and I slow down and I

[9:24] see that it I don't have to be in the

[9:27] Amazon. It's right there in front of me.

[9:29] It's right outside my my window. So, I

[9:32] was a bird in a cage, but now I could

[9:34] like sort of go outside that cage, you

[9:37] know. So, anyway, that was kind of the

[9:39] process that that I went through. And in

[9:42] the beginning, I just never thought I'd

[9:45] get through this book because

[9:48] it was so laborious. But then slowly I

[9:51] start building momentum and starts as I

[9:54] started getting like to chapter seven of

[9:56] the 12th sort of ah I'm gonna get to the

[9:58] end and that kind of brought a kind of a

[10:00] a pretty ecstatic feeling as well like I

[10:03] I could manage this.

[10:04] >> It took what around six five six years

[10:07] to write seven

[10:08] >> seven

[10:09] >> and handwriting a book that's over 400

[10:13] pages is no joke

[10:15] 60 Yeah.

[10:16] >> Yeah. Well, yeah. You know, I can't even

[10:21] It's really hard to describe, but I

[10:24] would sit there with these notebooks and

[10:26] write a paragraph

[10:28] and then or or a story and then I'd have

[10:31] to go to another notebook and look at it

[10:33] and re copy it out like I was like the

[10:37] 13th century or something. Handwriting

[10:39] handwriting like that. And then this

[10:42] isn't very good. I have to go back to

[10:44] the other one and rewrite it there.

[10:46] Finally after like 12 versions of it, I

[10:50] would dictate it into the computer with

[10:52] a you know whispered transcription,

[10:55] print it out and then hand edit it on

[10:58] paper again and then finally trans

[11:02] dictate it one final time and then edit

[11:05] it with one hand, you know, and at times

[11:08] I couldn't read my own handwrit. I

[11:10] couldn't figure out where the paragraphs

[11:11] were and how they fit. So, it was um I

[11:16] don't recommend anybody trying to write

[11:18] a book like that today, but I managed.

[11:21] >> It's incredible that you um and in some

[11:24] ways you mentioned how it the challenge

[11:27] provided a unique gift like being forced

[11:30] to find the sublime in the quote unquote

[11:33] bird cage.

[11:34] >> Yeah.

[11:34] >> Whilst perhaps you wouldn't wouldn't

[11:37] choose that for anybody else, it did

[11:39] provide a unique challenge for you.

[11:41] >> Yeah. I had to um discover things about

[11:44] myself. I had to go deep into myself. I

[11:46] would see

[11:49] people

[11:50] running past my window, walking their

[11:52] dogs, riding their bicycles. I'd go,

[11:54] "God damn, I'm so jealous. I'm so

[11:57] jealous." But then I would think,

[12:00] "Yes, but they don't appreciate it. They

[12:02] don't know what they have. They're like

[12:04] asleep. They just take everything for

[12:06] granted. So, what is the gift that they

[12:08] have? They don't have a gift. I can at

[12:11] least imagine myself doing these things

[12:13] and it and feel what what it means to be

[12:16] alive, what it means to be human. So I'd

[12:19] kind of have to go through process like

[12:20] that. And then

[12:22] in the writing and the handwriting,

[12:26] I realized there's a slowness that it

[12:29] requires. And the slowness would

[12:31] actually work for me because I had to

[12:34] think on a deeper level.

[12:36] We don't realize that thinking has like

[12:40] layers and has levels. And so when

[12:42] you're so used to speed and everything's

[12:44] AI and everything's Google and

[12:46] everything, you're not really thinking

[12:48] on a deep level. You're just kind of

[12:50] skimming these surfaces. I had to like

[12:53] write and think and then rewrite and so

[12:56] slow that it engaged a level of thinking

[12:59] that to me was was deeper. And I

[13:01] probably could have gone even to a

[13:03] deeper level if I'd spent 14 years

[13:05] instead of seven. But I had I had to

[13:08] reach the end at some point.

[13:09] >> So tell me about this everyday

[13:12] consciousness circle, how so much of our

[13:14] life we spend in our own sort of

[13:17] perceptual box of sorts and then how you

[13:21] came across these 12 areas which we're

[13:23] going to be unpacking in this

[13:24] conversation.

[13:26] Well, the idea is that um because you

[13:29] know the sublime people think of the

[13:32] word well it just means something great

[13:33] you know I had a sublime breakfast or or

[13:36] whatever or vacation. So what do I mean

[13:38] by that word? I had to find like kind of

[13:40] a way to express it because I I knew it

[13:43] intuitively what it is but how can I

[13:44] express it to the reader.

[13:47] So my idea was that our minds live in a

[13:50] kind of a mental space. We don't think

[13:53] of it that way because there is no kind

[13:55] of limit to our minds. We can't think of

[13:57] it. But I like to imagine a kind of a

[14:00] circle. And within that circle, you're

[14:03] not aware of it. It's invisible to you.

[14:06] But your thoughts never leave that

[14:07] circle. They stay inside. The thoughts

[14:11] revolve around and around the same

[14:13] obsessions. You read you read an

[14:16] article, some ideas in it. Maybe

[14:18] occasionally a new idea comes to you,

[14:20] but then it's absorbed into the

[14:22] obsessive kind of roundabout thoughts

[14:24] that you have. The culture kind of

[14:27] inculcates in us a certain patterns of

[14:30] thinking. You're not aware that in 21st

[14:33] century United States of America, the

[14:36] culture has programmed you to think a

[14:38] certain way.

[14:40] When you read a lot of history like I

[14:42] do, you understand and it's pretty

[14:45] simple that in ancient China the thought

[14:48] processes were different. I mean they

[14:50] were human, they were conscious but

[14:52] their way of thinking, their value

[14:53] system was different. So we have our own

[14:56] values, our own logic, our own grammar,

[14:59] our own way of thinking and it's a

[15:01] circle that encloses us.

[15:03] Sometimes that circle can get very

[15:05] narrow, particularly if you get really

[15:07] rigid in your thoughts. And sometimes

[15:08] when you get older, that circle just

[15:10] starts narrowing because when you were

[15:12] born, when you were a child, it was

[15:14] actually fairly wide, but it remains a

[15:17] circle that you don't go outside of. And

[15:20] the sublime are moments where you touch

[15:23] something outside that circle and it's

[15:26] like an electric shock. It goes, whoa,

[15:29] I'm actually not in the real world.

[15:31] There's actually something more real out

[15:32] there. I'm living in this little human

[15:35] abstract world that people assume is

[15:37] reality but isn't. It's just words,

[15:39] symbols. There's something else out

[15:42] there that I'm not aware of. And

[15:44] suddenly I became aware of it. So there

[15:46] these little doorways. I like to

[15:48] envision it as a door outside of that

[15:51] circle and you're moving up towards it

[15:54] and you're peering through it and you're

[15:56] seeing that there's something else

[15:57] outside that that is beyond how you

[15:59] normally think, how you normally

[16:01] experience life.

[16:03] And when you peer through that doorway,

[16:06] you get this kind of powerful sensation.

[16:08] A little bit of it is fear because

[16:12] living inside that circle is

[16:13] comfortable. The world is familiar. It's

[16:16] easy. It's predictable. I I don't need

[16:18] to look at trees. I don't need to look

[16:19] at clouds. I just know what they are. So

[16:22] there's a little bit of fear as you go

[16:25] outside of your comfort zone. But

[16:27] there's also this sort of pleasure of

[16:30] like opening up of like waking up out of

[16:32] a dream kind of thing. So that's how I

[16:35] kind of explained that the circle

[16:36] metaphor.

[16:37] >> And how did you come up with these

[16:39] categories as being the most worthwhile

[16:41] as sort of doorways into the sublime

[16:44] outside the circle so to speak?

[16:45] >> Well, um

[16:48] I have a research method that I've been

[16:50] using for almost 30 years now where I

[16:54] read hundreds of books. This probably

[16:56] this book probably read like over 300

[16:59] books and I take note cards, right?

[17:02] >> It inspired me actually to get my own

[17:04] note card taking system. Really? So I'm

[17:06] in the early really early stages of

[17:07] that.

[17:08] >> Oh yeah. Are you writing you writing a

[17:09] book? You've written books?

[17:11] >> This would be my first Oh, fantastic.

[17:12] Well, let's talk about it.

[17:14] >> Um,

[17:15] >> yeah. So I devised it because

[17:20] I believe research is kind of the key to

[17:22] writing an interesting book.

[17:24] >> Yeah. absorbing ideas from other places

[17:26] and then making your own. But it becomes

[17:29] overwhelming. There's too much

[17:30] information. So putting everything into

[17:33] note cards gives me a way to organize

[17:35] it. So initially I'll have like 200 note

[17:40] card no sorry more like 500 note cards

[17:43] and as I go through them I see that

[17:44] there are themes

[17:46] and the themes kind of turn into

[17:49] chapters and so that's how the chapters

[17:51] evolved. Initially in when I first

[17:54] proposed the book I had maybe 20

[17:56] chapters 20 or 18 and then slowly I

[17:59] realized this isn't really a complete

[18:02] chapter that it's part of something else

[18:04] you know I had a chapter on the Dionian

[18:07] experience and then I realized well it

[18:10] actually fits in to the chapter on

[18:12] aesthetics and to other chapters I had a

[18:14] chapter on nature but then it's all the

[18:17] whole books about nature so I slowly

[18:20] just kind of put things in other one

[18:21] other categories ories and I ended up

[18:23] with 12. I like numbers like 12. So I I

[18:27] I kind of decided to to sort of stop

[18:29] there anyway. There's a little bit of

[18:30] arbitrary nature to it.

[18:32] >> Yeah. Yeah. 12 48.

[18:34] >> 11 would 11 wouldn't have been so nice.

[18:37] >> 12 fits into 48 kind of.

[18:39] >> Exactly. Um so we have cosmic,

[18:42] biological, pagan, childhood, neural,

[18:46] interspecies, love, historical, damon,

[18:50] aesthetic, dynamical, and death.

[18:53] >> Yes. So

[18:56] before we dive into cosmic, which would

[18:59] be the first one, you you refer to this

[19:01] modern reflex to like fufu away anything

[19:04] that can't be measured as the

[19:06] anti-sublime.

[19:07] Um, and when we're talking about the

[19:10] sublime, which is inherently it's a

[19:12] qualia, it's an it's an onlogical

[19:14] experience we were having that is in

[19:17] many ways ineffable, like words can't

[19:19] touch it, right? The map's not the

[19:20] territory. Um, could you could you share

[19:23] more about what you mean when you say

[19:24] the anti-sublime and how it's something

[19:26] that is actually robbing us of

[19:28] experiencing more of it?

[19:31] Well, um it's almost like a fear of

[19:35] something that's that's different,

[19:37] right? And so,

[19:40] you know, when you were a child, we all

[19:43] went through childhood. The world is

[19:45] experienced differently than when you

[19:47] get older. There's a slight magical

[19:51] quality to things, right? your

[19:53] imagination is is inhabiting the world

[19:56] around you and everything kind of feels

[19:59] alive.

[20:01] But then you get older and now we live

[20:03] in a rational scientific technological

[20:06] age and you look back on that and you

[20:08] look back on history and it seems

[20:10] superstitious.

[20:12] It seems irrational. It seems childish.

[20:15] Seems like a stage of life and of

[20:17] civilization that we have left behind.

[20:19] And you're so much more mature. You

[20:21] figured things out. You know what the

[20:23] world is like. You know, you read books,

[20:25] you you understand science. This is the

[20:28] world we live in. There's no there's

[20:30] nothing divine. There's nothing sacred.

[20:33] Things just are the way they are, right?

[20:36] And it's it reveals this tremendous

[20:38] discomfort with anything slightly

[20:41] different, anything that is that the

[20:44] breeze of the unknown because you are in

[20:47] a rush to know everything, to be certain

[20:49] of it, but you don't realize how

[20:51] irrational that is and how it's closing

[20:55] you off from any kind of wider

[20:57] experience.

[20:59] So I I remember this guy. I had been in

[21:02] the early stages of writing the book.

[21:04] I've been on a podcast and I was sort of

[21:06] explain the sublime and then there was a

[21:08] comment. I was like a YouTube comment or

[21:10] something. I don't normally read them

[21:11] but it caught my attention. It's like

[21:14] come on the universe is just the way it

[21:17] is. Things just happen the way they are.

[21:19] There's nothing else. There's no you

[21:20] don't need to read into this anything

[21:22] anything else. Science has shown us what

[21:24] the world is. And I post my reply to him

[21:29] was just a series of quotes from Albert

[21:31] Einstein.

[21:33] the most scientific person you can

[21:35] imagine saying, "The universe is a

[21:37] mystery. I'm like a child on the edge of

[21:39] the ocean. I don't know what anything

[21:41] is." If you don't have a sense of

[21:43] mystery and awe about the universe, your

[21:46] brain is dead, right? And so there's

[21:49] that reaction that things just have to

[21:51] be the way they are because it's

[21:53] comfortable because you want to think

[21:55] that you know everything and there's no

[21:57] zone of of any kind of experience that

[22:01] is mysterious that is unknown. And it's

[22:04] the anti-sublime because

[22:08] the need to transcend yourself to to

[22:11] feel like you are a part of something

[22:14] larger than just your individual self,

[22:16] your ego, is a deep human need. It goes

[22:20] back thousands of tens of thousands of

[22:22] years. It's who we are. Because as

[22:25] creatures that are aware of our

[22:26] mortality, of our death, the feeling of

[22:29] death just canceling out everything that

[22:32] we do makes life seem purposeless.

[22:34] There's no meaning. Why even go on? So

[22:37] we're always in search of something

[22:38] greater, something transcendent. To deny

[22:41] that is is just to like enclose yourself

[22:45] in in this kind of prison. And the only

[22:47] way I can feel of it is it's a

[22:49] tremendous tremendous fear of anything

[22:51] that is going to shake you up.

[22:54] And so I I say that there's a lot of the

[22:57] anti-sublime in the world today,

[22:59] particularly with algorithms and AI and

[23:02] how we see ourselves as machines

[23:04] essentially. And then there's also the

[23:07] false sublime. But just briefly, because

[23:09] it's such a need to feel that sense of

[23:11] transcendence of being something and you

[23:14] in order to have that, you have to kind

[23:16] of open yourself up to experience.

[23:19] But because the culture is all about

[23:21] speed and convenience and ease, you want

[23:24] to get that feeling of the sublime, the

[23:26] transcendent through quick and easy

[23:29] things, through entertainment, right?

[23:31] Through movies.

[23:34] When I look at movies today, like Marvel

[23:36] movies, etc. I I'm not focusing on the

[23:38] content. I'm looking at the imagery. And

[23:40] all of it is tried to give people a

[23:43] sense of something almost godlike and

[23:45] the power of film itself of displaying a

[23:48] kind of reality where we humans can do

[23:50] almost anything right fly through the

[23:53] air etc.

[23:55] It's almost trying to create a sense of

[23:57] the sublime in people that's quick and

[24:00] easy. That's just images that that are,

[24:02] you know, washing over you. You know,

[24:05] online porn, addictions, video games,

[24:09] all that kind of imagery is so

[24:11] fantastical and bizarre. It's trying to

[24:14] feel transcendent,

[24:16] but it's not coming from within

[24:18] anything. It's not coming from you. It's

[24:20] people imposing their sense of something

[24:23] exciting because you're bored and you're

[24:25] restless and you want something

[24:26] different and exciting. But the sublime

[24:29] has to be an experience that comes from

[24:31] within you. It can't come from without.

[24:34] It can't be coming from people trying to

[24:37] entertain you and amuse you. It has to

[24:39] be something that comes from within that

[24:41] that's an experience that you have

[24:43] that's completely your own. And so I

[24:46] find in the culture today because

[24:49] there's this deep deep deep need to feel

[24:51] something transcendent particularly in

[24:54] an age that is so robbed of enchantment

[24:57] that you're going to find try and get it

[24:58] in cheap ways. And that to me is the

[25:01] false sublime.

[25:03] And there's many words we could use to

[25:05] describe that, but it's a felt reality

[25:07] across the board, I think, on the globe

[25:09] that we're like living a simulacum of

[25:11] our life that instead of the intimate

[25:14] conversations around the campfire, so to

[25:16] speak, we have these social dialogues

[25:18] without the physical contact, right? And

[25:21] um we instead of having really

[25:23] nutrient-dense

[25:25] food from soil that is rich, we have

[25:27] these ultrarocessed substitutes. And in

[25:30] many ways we're malnourished and we have

[25:32] these like poor substitutions across the

[25:34] board of things that we need. And I

[25:36] think uh the framework and and we'll go

[25:39] make our our way around the the circle

[25:41] so to speak that like really give that

[25:43] re-enchantment and that reminder. So to

[25:46] start with cosmic you I love I love I

[25:49] loved it so much. And how does

[25:51] contemplating the sheer improbability of

[25:54] our own existence revoke the sublime for

[25:57] you?

[25:58] Well, [clears throat] I take I take the

[26:00] reader on a journey through what I can

[26:02] what I through my research is literally

[26:05] the history of the universe. Now, keep

[26:07] in mind that probably in 200 years

[26:09] that'll have to be rewritten from new

[26:11] discoveries. So, I have a degree of

[26:13] humility that what I'm describing isn't

[26:15] precisely the reality.

[26:17] But I'm taking you first of all just

[26:21] stop all of your the banal thoughts in

[26:23] your mind and contemplate one thing. The

[26:26] universe began

[26:28] with a big bang some 13.8 billion years

[26:31] ago. There was a moment when our

[26:33] universe began. What an insane thought.

[26:37] You can't even get your mind around it,

[26:39] right? But was there before the big

[26:42] bang? Was there what was there? What is

[26:45] this? To me, it's the most insane

[26:48] mindaltering thought that you can

[26:49] possibly have. And I read a book, a very

[26:53] technical book, but it was interesting

[26:55] called The First Three Minutes, where a

[26:57] physicist describes the first three

[27:00] minutes of our universe. It's insane.

[27:03] And so what it basically boils down to

[27:06] is there's these series of events that I

[27:08] don't know how physicists have been able

[27:10] to recreate it. It's pretty miraculous.

[27:13] So, first get understand that I'm not

[27:15] anti-science. There's a lot of science

[27:16] in this book and I find things that

[27:18] science is uncovering utterly sublime.

[27:21] Okay.

[27:23] So, there are all these series of events

[27:25] that occur in the history of our

[27:27] universe that could have easily gone

[27:30] differently. Temperatures couldn't have

[27:33] cooled down as quickly as they did.

[27:36] There may not have been no light in the

[27:37] universe. There may not have been any

[27:39] matter, right? atoms had to be able to

[27:42] to cool down enough so that they could

[27:44] combine to form matter. The first star

[27:46] was born by kind of some weird random

[27:50] set of circumstances. And in that star

[27:52] as it got bigger and bigger and got

[27:54] heated up, all these elements were

[27:57] cooked inside that became the elements

[27:59] that form planets that form that form

[28:02] life itself. Then the star explodes.

[28:05] First of all, think of the thought that

[28:07] there was just the first star in the

[28:09] universe. What a what an insane thought

[28:12] that is as well, right? What was there

[28:14] to see? There was nothing. There was

[28:16] just a darkness.

[28:18] Okay? On and on and on. There are these

[28:20] sequences of events that occur that

[28:23] could have easily gone differently.

[28:25] Okay? And then you forward billions of

[28:28] years to the birth of planet Earth and

[28:30] our solar system. you see more of these

[28:34] weird little random coincidences that

[28:36] occur like planet Earth was just this

[28:40] rock, right? It's just a rock and then

[28:42] it collides with another a moonlike

[28:45] planet called Thea which is about the

[28:47] same size as Earth. They collide and and

[28:50] then there's a massive explosion and

[28:53] because of that collision certain things

[28:55] happen to to this rock that is planet

[28:57] Earth that are going to be allowing us

[29:00] to have life to have an environment to

[29:02] have a have climate to have seasons and

[29:05] that that rock that hit us could easily

[29:08] have missed or could have come at a

[29:09] different angle. So there's all these

[29:11] other random sets of circumstances. the

[29:14] fact that we're the precise distance

[29:16] from the sun that allows for the for the

[29:20] life to form that this rock that that is

[29:23] planet earth which has all these craters

[29:25] from meteors suddenly there's a

[29:28] thousand-year rain

[29:31] and first of all conceive of that

[29:33] raining for a thousand years they don't

[29:35] know exactly but just continual rain and

[29:38] where did this water come from that was

[29:40] also a series of weird random

[29:42] circumstances

[29:43] So the planet is filling with water. And

[29:46] so all these other events are occurring

[29:49] that allow for the formation of life in

[29:52] these seas, in these oceans that are

[29:54] that fill the planet, right? They're

[29:56] these basins. So when you're in the

[29:59] ocean, if you go sailing or you're

[30:00] swimming in the ocean, understand that

[30:02] those are basins formed by meteors that

[30:05] collided with Earth, right? So that's

[30:07] what you're swimming in, which is also

[30:09] another rather strange thought. on and

[30:12] on and on. The extinction of the

[30:14] dinosaurs, the fact that homo sapiens

[30:16] nearly disappeared, the Neanderthalss

[30:19] might have been roaming the planet

[30:20] instead of homo sapiens, which might

[30:21] have been much better in some ways.

[30:24] Okay, we won't go into that. Um, then

[30:27] how our brains form, how conscious, how

[30:29] language forms, how just your parents

[30:31] meeting was a random event that could

[30:34] have not happened. You wouldn't be who

[30:36] you are. Multiply that by 70,000

[30:39] generations of couples that met that

[30:41] allow for you. If you add all this up,

[30:45] it is absolutely insane. The

[30:49] astronomical improbability of us being

[30:52] here, you and I talking is impossible to

[30:55] calculate. All these things had to fall

[30:57] exactly into place, right? It's bizarre.

[31:01] At some point, you almost wonder, did it

[31:04] happen for a purpose? Now, I'm not I'm

[31:08] not Christian or anything, but you

[31:10] almost think that there's some kind of

[31:11] creator out there that's allowing for

[31:13] these things to fall into place so that

[31:16] we can be conscious

[31:18] and so that the universe could have

[31:20] consciousness and we could understand

[31:22] and know all of these things. It almost

[31:25] feels like that. I'm not going to say

[31:26] whether that's true or not, but if you

[31:29] walk around today with your two feet

[31:31] wandering around the city, kind of

[31:33] enclosed in your thoughts, and you stop

[31:35] for a moment and go, "Jesus Christ,

[31:38] [laughter] I'm alive. How did this

[31:41] happen? It's just so random. It's so

[31:43] weird." It makes you look at your world

[31:47] in a much different light. You take

[31:49] nothing for granted. You realize that

[31:52] your own body,

[31:55] your own physiology is the product of

[31:58] these single cellled organisms in the

[32:00] oceans 800 million years ago and the

[32:02] first nervous systems. Your brains are

[32:06] formed from all sorts of other animals

[32:08] that evolved, rip, reptiles, etc. Your

[32:11] body is this creation out of a weird mix

[32:15] of random events throughout evolution.

[32:18] I'm sorry, but it's it's just the most

[32:20] insane story. And in in the second

[32:23] chapter I write, if we just stopped and

[32:26] thought about it, we would create

[32:28] religions and temples to literally

[32:31] contemplate and venerate these random

[32:34] series of circumstances that allowed for

[32:36] us to be who we are right now.

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[33:57] It's something that I feel very

[34:00] passionate about as well and have had a

[34:03] natural inclination towards uh

[34:06] philosophy, mysticism, and just being

[34:08] dumbfounded for existence existing at

[34:11] all. And the way that you just walked us

[34:13] through the origin of the universe which

[34:15] is of the spark notes of the spark

[34:16] notes. Of course it is. Of course. Um

[34:19] but it's I get the feeling when

[34:22] listening and I'm sure everybody's

[34:23] tuning in that uh

[34:25] >> we just take our everyday consciousness

[34:27] for granted like we forget all that came

[34:30] before us that made this human

[34:32] experience of having an experience of

[34:35] oursel and the world even possible. uh

[34:38] the finetuning you know um of the

[34:41] universe and all the yeah the perfect

[34:44] tuning of the laws of physics that made

[34:46] life on earth possible is just it's it's

[34:50] amazing and I think that when you say

[34:52] that we should be erecting temples to

[34:55] contemplate the sheer miraculous nature

[34:57] of our own existence um I think people

[34:59] feel that especially as you know uh

[35:02] people have there's been like an exodus

[35:04] from religion in the modern

[35:06] post-enlightenment secular world. We've

[35:08] kind of thrown the baby out with the

[35:09] bathwater. There is this need for

[35:13] communal spaces to contemplate these

[35:15] things and to have these experiences of

[35:17] the divine. And you know, that used to

[35:19] be the church and for many good reasons.

[35:22] People don't, you know, ascribe to the

[35:25] same religions. Um, but I think when you

[35:28] explore in the third chapter around the

[35:30] pagan sublime and the elusian mysteries,

[35:33] um, it speaks directly to this need.

[35:35] It's a real need to access in communal

[35:38] collective settings. So, what were the

[35:40] Hallucinian mysteries and walk us

[35:42] through a bit of that need, that real

[35:44] human need we have?

[35:45] >> Well, um I'm I'm been, you know, my when

[35:49] I was in college, my major was ancient

[35:51] Greek. So, I'm sort of infused in the

[35:54] ancient world and I'm so deeply

[35:56] attracted to the ancient world. I can't

[35:59] explain why. the art of it and the

[36:01] architecture and just the everything

[36:03] about it just has a primal connection to

[36:06] me. And so having studied ancient Greek

[36:09] and being deeply involved in in in in

[36:12] the culture and in the language, there's

[36:14] always been this thing about the

[36:15] Eloinian mysteries.

[36:18] It was a series of rituals that probably

[36:20] had like a matriarchal origin. It was

[36:22] like an agriculture type festival.

[36:26] So one thing you have to understand is

[36:27] our ancient ancestors

[36:30] were fascinated by the phenomenon of

[36:32] life itself sprouting out of the ground

[36:35] that there were seasons that things

[36:37] would die in the winter and then

[36:39] suddenly they would plants would

[36:41] reappear in the spring. We take that

[36:44] completely for granted if we even ever

[36:45] see plants or vegetation. But to them it

[36:48] was like life is being reborn. It's a

[36:51] miracle. How does it happen? And so as

[36:54] we became agriculturalists

[36:57] that became a kind of a religious sort

[36:59] of phenomenon. And so out of that grew a

[37:03] series of gods, gods of fertility, gods

[37:06] of agriculture. And so the Elocian

[37:09] mysteries were kind of um kind of

[37:13] rotated around that idea. Okay. But the

[37:16] thing was nobody knows what they were.

[37:19] their mysteries

[37:21] and we this this ritual that was the

[37:24] eldian mysteries went on for like a

[37:27] thousand years. So imagine a ritual that

[37:31] everyone peasants, intellectuals, men

[37:34] and women of all classes were obsessed

[37:37] with and would go through and be

[37:39] initiated in for a thousand years. There

[37:42] must have been something incredibly

[37:43] powerful about it. Okay. But you could

[37:46] never reveal the anybody who revealed

[37:48] the secrets would be killed because that

[37:50] was the whole point. It's a mystery,

[37:52] right? It was supposed the secretness of

[37:54] it was was was made it sacred.

[37:58] So I gave myself the task of trying to

[38:01] uncover as much as I could about the

[38:03] mysteries knowing that there was a

[38:04] kernel that I could never understand.

[38:07] And so I studied all of the details of

[38:09] it, the people that they went to, what

[38:12] they wore, the clothes that they wore.

[38:14] um the rituals, the the the priestesses

[38:17] that led the procession from Athens to

[38:20] the city of Elusus, right? On and on and

[38:23] all the little details that I could find

[38:25] as much as possible. And essentially

[38:29] it revolves around the myth of Pphanie

[38:32] and Deer. Okay, Deer was the goddess of

[38:36] agriculture. As I said, probably an

[38:39] ancient matriarchal goddess.

[38:41] And she had a daughter, Pphanie, who one

[38:45] day was in the fields plucking flowers

[38:47] with her maiden girlfriends who were all

[38:50] nymphs.

[38:52] And Hades, the god of the underworld,

[38:54] suddenly sucked her into the underworld

[38:57] and raped her and made her the queen of

[38:59] the underworld. And now Pphanie was

[39:02] living in among the dead. She yearned

[39:05] for the light. She yearned to be back

[39:07] with her mother. She was so upset. And

[39:10] the mother de meter pleads for Zeus to

[39:13] free his her daughter. Finally, he

[39:16] agrees that for part of the year she

[39:20] will come out of the underworld and that

[39:22] will be spring and summer and then she

[39:24] will descend back into the underworld

[39:26] and that will be winter. Right? So her

[39:29] coming up coincides with the birth of

[39:32] vegetation with the return of life from

[39:34] death. Okay? So the rituals centered the

[39:38] eliscinian mystery is centered on the

[39:40] mystery of life and death itself.

[39:44] Are do we just die and nothing happens

[39:46] or does our death allow for life to come

[39:49] back up? Is there a cycle that we humans

[39:51] are a part of? Right? And so in my

[39:55] uncovering of all the details and I you

[39:57] know I hope you will read it if you do

[39:59] cuz I'm not going to go through

[40:01] everything now. The mysteries were all

[40:04] about creating the feeling in the

[40:06] initiates that you had died. You had

[40:08] literally died. There was probably the

[40:11] ingestion of plant substances that were

[40:14] hallucinogenic. We believe that maybe

[40:17] there were poppies. It could have been

[40:19] something similar to mushrooms or LSD,

[40:22] arrog.

[40:25] But they created this sense that you had

[40:28] literally died and now you were being

[40:30] reborn along with Pphanie and the

[40:33] feeling was so powerful that people like

[40:37] Plato and Socrates and Marcus Aurelius

[40:40] and Cicero people who were high

[40:43] intellectuals who you wouldn't think of

[40:45] who would poo poo that like the

[40:47] anti-ublant people today would go like

[40:49] that they were completely enraptured.

[40:51] They completely felt it for their whole

[40:53] lives. People who went through the

[40:55] mysteries never ever forgot it. It was

[40:58] the most memorable experience in their

[41:00] life. Right? And so what I wanted to

[41:04] impress on people in this is that your

[41:08] idea of ancient religion and gods is

[41:11] completely misconceived. You have no

[41:13] idea what the gods were. They weren't

[41:16] these like little kind of cartoon-like

[41:20] figures out in space who were like

[41:22] humanlike doing all these silly little

[41:24] things. They were forces of nature,

[41:27] right? They were the embodiment of they

[41:30] were not entities. They were these

[41:32] powers, these forces of nature that

[41:34] would wash through you. So when you felt

[41:38] deep love for someone, when you were

[41:41] sexually attracted or you were just in

[41:43] love with another person, Aphrodite had

[41:46] passed through you. Aphrodite wasn't

[41:49] this like figure that you could see. It

[41:52] was just this sensation of overpowering

[41:55] love of like a almost a biological

[41:58] sensation that transcended your own

[42:00] desires on and on and on. Pphanie,

[42:03] Deita, Zeus, all of these were these

[42:06] forces of nature that would come and

[42:08] inhabit and possess you. And the feeling

[42:10] of possession of these natural forces

[42:14] was the divine, was the sacred. It was

[42:16] so powerful that it was not something we

[42:19] can even conceive of today. Our sense of

[42:22] religion is so different, is so I don't

[42:24] even know how to explain it. But pagan

[42:27] religions

[42:29] were were these life forces that that

[42:32] would possess you that would inhabit you

[42:34] that were part of life itself and that

[42:36] took you out of your individual

[42:38] existence.

[42:40] So I want to give wanted to give people

[42:42] a feeling that there is another way to

[42:45] conceive of religion and and the divine

[42:48] and the sacred that has nothing to do

[42:50] with our modern conceptions. M

[42:53] >> and you talk about things from extreme

[42:56] sports to Burning Man sort of being this

[42:58] collective this repressed pagan hunger

[43:01] for collective ecstasy in disguise.

[43:05] >> Um would you say that is a need that is

[43:08] not being fulfilled currently in

[43:10] society?

[43:11] >> Yeah. And um there are all kinds of

[43:14] qualities that I sort of see as a desire

[43:18] for returning to paganism. Um, I mean

[43:22] the word almost has like a cartoonish

[43:24] feel to it if you say that. It conjures

[43:26] up, you know, wearing furs and horns and

[43:28] dancing around, but that's not the

[43:30] connotation I like to give it.

[43:33] >> But yeah, I mean, collective events

[43:37] like the Elucinian mysteries because

[43:40] being in a group and going through the

[43:42] mysteries was what was part of it. The

[43:45] group energy, the feeling that you were

[43:47] all part of this one life force that was

[43:50] being reborn gave it its power.

[43:54] And we're so lonely now. We're so

[43:57] isolated. We're all so cut off from each

[44:00] other

[44:02] that we yearn for some kind of

[44:04] collective experience. That yearn for

[44:06] collective experience that is not just

[44:10] watching a football game. that is

[44:12] something deeper is to me a kind of a

[44:15] hankering for the pagan type experience,

[44:18] right? And so we have these kind of

[44:21] events like Burning Man, like raves,

[44:25] like other concerts and such that kind

[44:28] of have that feeling where you can get

[44:30] that sort of collective energy where

[44:32] everyone is one. If you've ever been in

[44:35] a place where you see people singing

[44:38] together,

[44:40] it can give you that chill. So the other

[44:43] night I was watching a movie um it was a

[44:46] Japanese movie by the Japanese director

[44:48] Ozu in which these old men 12 of them

[44:51] who were all been fought in World War II

[44:54] were remembering the war and they

[44:56] started singing a song a kind of o a

[44:59] soldier song and I got this feeling 12

[45:02] people singing a song in the collective

[45:04] voice it was chilling it was so powerful

[45:08] the sense of like one voice and that's

[45:11] the kind of experience that the collect

[45:12] ive had people singing all together in

[45:15] unison feeling like one is an

[45:18] overpowering experience.

[45:21] I remember

[45:23] when I was in my 20s, I went to

[45:25] Nicaragua like 19 it was there was a war

[45:28] going on. It was like 1982, 1983.

[45:31] And the Pope was visiting Nicaragua,

[45:34] which is a big thing because Nicaragua

[45:36] back then was kind of this revolution.

[45:38] It was socialist, communist, whatever

[45:40] you want to call it. And the pope was

[45:42] kind of angry at this, but it was a but

[45:44] it's a very Catholic country. anywhere.

[45:47] I was in this enormous square in

[45:49] Managua, Nicaragua, which had been

[45:51] devastated by an earthquake. So there

[45:53] was no, it was just this huge square

[45:55] filled with almost everybody in

[45:57] Nicaragua. And there was the pope.

[46:00] I felt an experience of all these people

[46:03] there and this kind of worshiping sense

[46:06] that I'll never forget. It was like it

[46:09] was like kind of like the divine. It was

[46:10] like sacred. It was so weird and

[46:12] powerful. That's what we're hankering

[46:14] for. that kind of collective experience

[46:18] and that to me is a hunger for the kind

[46:21] of pagan experience that I'm describing.

[46:24] I

[46:25] >> think we certainly yearn for that state

[46:28] and that feeling of in a the most

[46:32] individualistic culture that sense for

[46:34] like collective remembrance. And I think

[46:37] that especially as the artificial worlds

[46:40] tend to, you know, take the stage, the

[46:44] the yearning for those in-person kind of

[46:46] immersive experiences are going to

[46:48] continue to to be demanded and really

[46:51] needed as their sustenance for for

[46:53] individuals. Um, another one you look

[46:56] back on and we can have this nostalgia

[46:58] in particular with childhood which you

[47:01] write about in the fourth chapter. Um,

[47:04] and uh, what do you think we get wrong

[47:06] about how we look back with nostalgia

[47:09] about our childhood years almost with a

[47:11] sense of like superiority?

[47:14] >> Well, we kind of um, smile when we think

[47:17] of children. We look at them. We smile

[47:20] how cute they are. We think of our own

[47:22] childhood, how sweet and nice it was,

[47:24] and oh, would be nice to have, you know,

[47:27] to be back there. and we look at

[47:29] photographs and we talk with our family

[47:32] members and we reminisce and we kind of

[47:34] turn childhood into what it isn't. We

[47:37] look at it through our adult lens,

[47:39] right?

[47:40] Childhood was not this sweet little

[47:42] innocent wondrous little time of life.

[47:45] It was this awakening to the world as it

[47:48] actually is. Right? You're seeing the

[47:52] world for the first time. You're

[47:54] becoming conscious for the first time.

[47:57] Right? When you're 2, 3 years old. Right

[47:59] now, we don't know when children start

[48:02] to become truly self-aware. Some people

[48:05] think it's 1 2 3 years old, but anyway,

[48:07] there's a moment when you start becoming

[48:08] self-aware and you're looking at the

[48:10] world and you're seeing things and

[48:12] you're small and you're helpless and

[48:14] everything seems huge and wondrous and

[48:17] weird. I remember I was four years old.

[48:19] One of my earliest memories is staring

[48:21] at this red glass that had these ridges

[48:24] in it and the and the color and I was

[48:26] just like, "Wow, that is so beautiful,

[48:28] right?" And the ice in it and the water

[48:31] you were your senses were so alive. Your

[48:34] brain was so fluid and plastic and you

[48:37] were and all these thoughts are coming

[48:39] to your your brain is so plastic and is

[48:41] expanding that everything is is is just

[48:45] eyeoping, right? You're in awe of

[48:47] everything. Of course, there are painful

[48:50] moments of childhood because you're weak

[48:52] and you're vulnerable and you're

[48:54] dependent on others. So mixed with this

[48:57] kind of excitement is a little bit of

[48:59] terror and fear and vulnerability. But

[49:02] the sublime involves a bit of terror and

[49:05] vulnerability.

[49:07] And just to go back briefly to the

[49:09] cosmic sublime, I try and say

[49:12] that why children are so obsessed with

[49:14] the night sky because I think if you

[49:16] went back in your own childhood, you

[49:18] would remember that looking up at the

[49:20] sky particularly at night was a weird

[49:24] experience like the sky is infinite.

[49:26] It's because you were so small and you

[49:30] were looking at something that expanded

[49:31] into in infinitely that it caused you to

[49:35] like have this feeling of fear and

[49:37] excitement about the infinite, right?

[49:40] And so childhood is not this sweet

[49:43] little innocent kind of nostalgic thing.

[49:45] Oh, we played games. Oh, how sweet it

[49:47] was. It was this awakening to this

[49:49] world, to seeing things as they are. Our

[49:53] experience of time was different.

[49:56] We live in what I call dead time. And

[50:00] dead time is abstract time. It's minutes

[50:03] passing. In an hour, I have to get this

[50:05] done. In two hours, I have to get that

[50:07] done. By the end of the day, we think in

[50:10] these abstract terms, blocks of time.

[50:12] Time is outside of us. It's like dead.

[50:15] When you're a child, time flows as

[50:18] you're inside of it. It's like a river

[50:20] that you're inside of.

[50:22] >> And the feeling of the passage of time

[50:24] is sensual.

[50:25] So

[50:27] your senses are so much more alive. And

[50:30] what happens is when you're in your 20,

[50:32] when as you get older,

[50:35] you become kind of bored and

[50:37] dissatisfied with life. Life seems a

[50:39] little bit empty. Life seems a little

[50:42] bit flat. You don't know why you're

[50:44] unhappy. You don't know why you want

[50:47] addictions, why you want to grab for

[50:48] things. But I'm saying in the back of

[50:51] your mind unconsciously,

[50:53] you can remember a time in your own life

[50:55] when you were three or four when your

[50:57] experience of life was different. That

[51:00] is what you miss. That is what you miss.

[51:03] Not being young, not having your life

[51:05] all over again. But you miss that kind

[51:07] of openness to experience. And that to

[51:10] me is the childhood sublime.

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[52:20] Back to the show.

[52:23] I think many people can relate to this

[52:28] feeling like their raw experience of

[52:30] life has been swapped out for a

[52:33] narration of it. And we see children

[52:36] have this unmediated experience, a

[52:38] bottomup raw experience of what's

[52:40] happening in the world. And you share um

[52:44] how we can return back to this sort of

[52:48] second innocence and revoke that child

[52:52] childlike sense of discovering the

[52:54] world. And I know you had moments

[52:56] throughout your stroke in particular and

[52:58] of course in the process of writing your

[53:00] book where you you had that um and I

[53:05] love the the example you gave of staring

[53:08] at something until the word of it

[53:09] dissolves,

[53:10] >> you know,

[53:12] >> uh like looking at a tree until the word

[53:14] tree dissolves. Um,

[53:17] >> so if you could share a little bit more

[53:18] about how

[53:20] to return back to that sense of

[53:24] experiencing life without the continual

[53:26] narration and the voice in your head

[53:27] dictating what something is, thinking

[53:30] you know it.

[53:32] Well, um, I illustrate each of the

[53:34] chapters illustrated with a particular

[53:36] story that's like the archetype. And the

[53:38] story I use is of this Russian writer

[53:41] named Nabokov, Vladimir Nabokov, who

[53:43] most famous for writing the novel

[53:45] Lolita, but he wrote many other

[53:46] wonderful things.

[53:49] And the story, the reason I chose

[53:50] Nabokov is he had this wondrous

[53:54] childhood, incredibly enchanted. He ca

[53:57] he lived on he his family was relatively

[53:59] wealthy and they lived out in the

[54:00] country and everything was magical. And

[54:04] then at the age of 18 or 19, the Russian

[54:06] revolution breaks out. His fa his his

[54:09] father who was sort of wealthy even

[54:10] though he was a liberal was forced into

[54:13] exile. They had parts of their family

[54:15] were killed. They had to immigrate to

[54:17] Europe. They went to Berlin and then the

[54:20] Nazis came and Nabacov's wife was

[54:23] Jewish. They had to flee Germany. He had

[54:25] to flee to New York. His mother died.

[54:28] His brother was killed in a

[54:29] concentration camp. His father was

[54:31] murdered. He lost his entire family. He

[54:35] could never ever return to Russia

[54:36] because now it was under Stalin. So here

[54:39] he lived in this exile. He had no

[54:42] photographs. He had no memorabilia.

[54:45] But he longed for his childhood so

[54:47] deeply. And the pain of that was

[54:49] unbearable. So he he experimented as a

[54:53] writer. He was going to recreate his

[54:55] childhood not as something as you say

[54:58] narrated as if it's like an series of

[55:00] events but as if it's an experience that

[55:03] he can reexperience by writing about it.

[55:07] And so using that as a model I try

[55:10] getting you to to try something similar

[55:13] with your own life. And so it's not a

[55:16] question of revisiting the events of

[55:19] your childhood. It's a question of

[55:21] revisiting the experience of your

[55:24] childhood.

[55:25] So I mentioned for instance that time

[55:29] was experienced differently in childhood

[55:32] and I have an exercise towards the end

[55:34] of the chapter of trying to experience

[55:37] time differently as if it's a flow as if

[55:40] you're entering a river and it's inside

[55:42] of you. Now I know that concept might be

[55:45] alien to the listener but I I meditate

[55:49] every morning and I go through this

[55:52] exercise myself often in the morning

[55:55] where I feel like t like I'm not

[55:59] thinking about minutes or whatever I'm

[56:02] actually inside the moment itself I'm

[56:04] inside time and it's this flow and it's

[56:08] a physical sensation. Time should be a

[56:10] physical sensation in your body, not a

[56:13] thought, not something abstract from the

[56:15] outside. It's flowing inside of you.

[56:17] Each moment passing,

[56:20] we are all alive at the same time. I

[56:23] know that sounds like an obvious thing,

[56:26] but just think of it. We are all alive

[56:28] at the same time. We're all conscious of

[56:30] it. Some of us are are passing out of it

[56:32] and are dying, but we are alive at that

[56:34] moment. And that moment is time inside

[56:37] of us. It's like a river that you're in

[56:39] that you're inside. You're not looking

[56:41] at it from the shore.

[56:43] Language, you mention I have a story of

[56:46] of a woman who revisited her childhood

[56:49] because language fell out.

[56:52] >> Is it Aaron Reich?

[56:53] >> Yes. Barbara Aaron Reich. um she had

[56:56] this kind of weird experience where um

[56:59] she's like 18 or 19 and she's in some

[57:02] city in California, some town and

[57:05] suddenly everything is bright and in and

[57:07] intense and she no longer can hear the

[57:11] word tree. And so when she sees this

[57:14] tree, it's like this sort of magnificent

[57:18] thing sprouting out of the earth and

[57:20] trying to reach up into the sky and it

[57:23] has a presence to it and it has like

[57:26] life itself inside of it, right? And for

[57:30] a moment she feels like there's no

[57:32] separation between me and the tree

[57:34] because the word drops out.

[57:37] When you walk through your daily life

[57:39] and you just have the word tree, you

[57:41] never look at them. We never think about

[57:42] them. You never see how weird it is to

[57:46] have plant life and tree life on this

[57:48] earth and what it represents. So when

[57:51] words drop out, you have a different

[57:53] form of consciousness. Now it's hard to

[57:57] because we're so verbal, it's hard to

[57:59] completely do that. But you can walk

[58:01] around and you can start looking at

[58:03] things as if there were no words for

[58:06] them. So you look at birds in the sky,

[58:09] there's no word for bird. There's just

[58:11] these strange things flitting about in

[58:13] the sky that somehow took to flight. How

[58:16] does that happen? They're very strange.

[58:18] They're very interesting looking.

[58:20] They're alive like me. I am right now.

[58:23] So when words drop out, your experience

[58:26] returns somewhat to that feeling of

[58:29] childhood, right? And so your experience

[58:32] of time, your experience of senses, your

[58:34] experience of motion.

[58:37] When you're a child and you travel in a

[58:39] car or a plane or a train, your body

[58:43] feels like it's a part of it. You're

[58:44] moving with it and your sense of motion

[58:48] is much different than now where we fly.

[58:50] We don't even think about it, right?

[58:52] We're just, oh, we're so in uh we're so

[58:55] in our little computers. You look at

[58:56] people on a plane. Who looks outside the

[58:58] window who's feeling that miraculous

[59:01] sense that you're flying in the

[59:03] air? You know, if it's all like this,

[59:06] that's what a child does. That's a

[59:07] child's like, "Jesus Christ, I'm flying.

[59:10] How insane." So, these are things that

[59:12] you go back to. Not nostalgia, not cute

[59:15] little memories, but the experience of

[59:17] childhood itself.

[59:19] >> I think uh

[59:22] despair is a doorway into that space.

[59:25] And you talk about Goodall um her what

[59:28] you know drove her to be with the chimps

[59:29] in the rainforest and uh your own

[59:32] example as well. Um how is that a unique

[59:36] opportunity to revisit the childlike

[59:39] sense available to us?

[59:41] >> Well,

[59:42] so when you're a child, you're very

[59:45] vulnerable

[59:47] >> and you're weak and you're a very

[59:49] sensitive and emotional. So you

[59:51] experience a lot of pain, right? you you

[59:55] don't have the the the distance from

[59:57] your own emotions to kind of analyze

[59:59] them. And so you're in the moment and

[1:00:01] you feel deeply if a parent isn't paying

[1:00:03] you attention or that sense of

[1:00:05] abandonment.

[1:00:07] When we become adults, we become

[1:00:10] invulnerable.

[1:00:12] We have so many defenses, right, that

[1:00:14] just enclose us in our bodies, right?

[1:00:17] The great psychiatrist Phil Helm Reich

[1:00:20] said it's like body armor that we wear

[1:00:22] in our chest, right? Okay, you feel so

[1:00:25] closed. But in those moments of despair

[1:00:29] for Jane Goodall, it happened with her

[1:00:31] husband that she loved deeply living

[1:00:33] with him as he died of cancer and how

[1:00:35] horrific it was and how her life now

[1:00:38] became just like this business managing

[1:00:41] her her foundation. She was losing it

[1:00:44] contact with her childhood, right? And

[1:00:47] in those moments of despair and

[1:00:51] unhappiness and loneliness, you're

[1:00:53] actually opening up. You're actually

[1:00:56] vulnerable. Your defenses are down and

[1:00:59] you can't you have uncontrollable

[1:01:00] emotions.

[1:01:02] It's similar to childhood, right? And so

[1:01:06] in those moments is when you can almost

[1:01:09] best feel what it was like when you were

[1:01:10] a child.

[1:01:13] I tell the story in that chapter of

[1:01:15] Buddha himself, Gotama of whatever the

[1:01:18] rest of his name is.

[1:01:21] >> Okay.

[1:01:22] >> He

[1:01:24] left his wealthy family to go wander in

[1:01:26] the forest to find out the purpose of

[1:01:28] his life.

[1:01:29] >> He tried all these aesthetic practices

[1:01:32] just like totally like no food and

[1:01:35] eating, drinking his own urine and

[1:01:37] everything and fasting got him no closer

[1:01:40] to enlightenment. For six years he sat

[1:01:42] and he tried to figure it out and he was

[1:01:45] in deep, deep, deep despair. He was

[1:01:48] almost like to give up. He was in

[1:01:50] incredible state of depression.

[1:01:53] He's sitting out underneath a tree one

[1:01:55] day and a memory in that state of

[1:01:59] despair.

[1:02:00] A memory comes back to him from his

[1:02:02] childhood of seeing the of seeing the

[1:02:06] the grass being cut for um for

[1:02:10] harvesting time and all the millions of

[1:02:13] insects that are being butchered in this

[1:02:16] harvest of the cutting of the

[1:02:18] vegetation. And as a child he's like,

[1:02:20] "Oh my god, all these creatures are

[1:02:22] dying. I feel horrible."

[1:02:24] But at the same time, the sky is out

[1:02:26] there. It's beautiful. This is just life

[1:02:28] itself.

[1:02:30] In his moment of despair, he returns to

[1:02:32] that childhood memory and he feels

[1:02:34] enlightened. It's this moment of

[1:02:36] enlightenment.

[1:02:38] So that feeling of despair, of

[1:02:40] vulnerability and of oh god, I'm so

[1:02:43] lost. What was happened to me is when

[1:02:46] you can be closer to actually

[1:02:48] experiencing the sublime that you had in

[1:02:50] childhood because you are opening up and

[1:02:52] you are vulnerable in those moments.

[1:02:55] I love that reframing of vulnerability

[1:02:58] as an actual doorway to access more of

[1:03:00] the sublime. And one exercise or

[1:03:03] recommendation you give is to seek out

[1:03:06] experiences where you yourself feel

[1:03:08] exposed, humiliated, you know,

[1:03:10] ridiculous and uh to get out of yourself

[1:03:15] and outside of the over seriousness of

[1:03:17] taking, you know, us so seriously as an

[1:03:19] individual. Um, I did improv recently.

[1:03:22] Like that was a good example for me of,

[1:03:23] you know, just trying something new and

[1:03:26] >> and, uh, you know, uh, being able to

[1:03:28] just make fun of yourself is so

[1:03:30] liberating.

[1:03:31] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[1:03:32] >> When was the last time you did something

[1:03:33] like that?

[1:03:35] >> Well, I'm always laughing at myself

[1:03:37] because I find myself rather ridiculous,

[1:03:40] but [laughter] um, I don't know. Uh my

[1:03:44] wife and I back 30 years ago, we did

[1:03:47] theater in Los Angeles and I wrote these

[1:03:50] plays that were really kind of making

[1:03:52] fun of myself and I acted in them. So

[1:03:55] that was my equivalent of improv,

[1:03:58] >> but I haven't had that so recently. I I

[1:04:00] I really probably should do that. Maybe

[1:04:02] I should consider it.

[1:04:03] >> That sounds like fun.

[1:04:04] >> Let's go. Okay,

[1:04:05] >> I'll take you to improv.

[1:04:07] >> Okay, [laughter] but I have to get up

[1:04:08] there and I have to improvise.

[1:04:11] >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember I took an

[1:04:13] acting class uh when I was about to

[1:04:15] start my first book came out and I had

[1:04:17] to go in front of media. So, I thought

[1:04:19] I'd take acting classes and he it was

[1:04:22] all about improv and I was terrible at

[1:04:25] it. So, I don't know if I want to do

[1:04:26] this. I might let [laughter]

[1:04:29] >> So I think this goes nicely into the

[1:04:31] fifth one, the naked brain,

[1:04:33] >> because one thing that helps me at least

[1:04:36] take my life less seriously and

[1:04:38] personally and be able to like laugh at

[1:04:40] myself and things like that

[1:04:42] >> is to realize how much of a perceptual

[1:04:44] box that we are constantly looking

[1:04:47] through. And you referred to our brains

[1:04:49] as these passive passengers. So, I'd

[1:04:52] love for you to share a bit more about

[1:04:54] how often we take reality as though it

[1:04:58] is the way it appears, but in truth, it

[1:05:00] is a behavioral adaptive system um for

[1:05:04] us to be able to navigate. And thank God

[1:05:05] it's so useful, but it is not the way

[1:05:08] reality is.

[1:05:11] >> Well, um I tell a story in there that

[1:05:14] illustrates it of a woman, Jill Bolty

[1:05:16] Taylor. You may have heard her.

[1:05:17] >> She's coming on in a bit. Yeah. On the

[1:05:19] show.

[1:05:19] >> Oh, really?

[1:05:20] >> Yeah.

[1:05:20] >> Oh, please say hello to her. I know her.

[1:05:22] We've we've conversed on the phone

[1:05:23] several times.

[1:05:25] >> Yeah, that's exciting. She's an amazing

[1:05:26] woman.

[1:05:28] >> Anyway, um she suffered a stroke, but

[1:05:31] she was a neuroscientist who was was a

[1:05:34] very serious scientist who studied the

[1:05:36] human brain in depth. Her specialty was

[1:05:39] schizophrenia and the chemical processes

[1:05:41] in the brain that perhaps are causing

[1:05:43] schizophrenia.

[1:05:45] And one day she's having a stroke, a

[1:05:48] hemorrhagic stroke. I don't want to

[1:05:49] spoil the story cuz she's going to be on

[1:05:51] your show, but blood blood is flowing

[1:05:54] through her brain and it's shutting down

[1:05:55] one by one the different functionings of

[1:05:58] the brain. And as it's occurring, she

[1:06:00] doesn't know what it is. She doesn't

[1:06:02] know that it's a stroke. Although at

[1:06:05] some point she realizes it, but she

[1:06:07] later understands that she is

[1:06:09] experiencing the world before the brain

[1:06:12] filters and constructs what we take for

[1:06:16] reality. And so I use that story to

[1:06:19] illustrate the idea that you're not

[1:06:22] aware. You're walking around. You're not

[1:06:23] aware that your brain is continually

[1:06:26] filtering all of your perceptions and

[1:06:28] pruning what you see, what you hear,

[1:06:30] what you think. Because the brain is

[1:06:33] trying to make it easier for you to

[1:06:35] navigate this world. It's like I I don't

[1:06:38] mean to it's not like the brain is

[1:06:40] consciously doing that, but the brain is

[1:06:43] designed as a mechanism to help you

[1:06:44] survive.

[1:06:46] And we survive in environments that are

[1:06:48] very different from animals a couple

[1:06:51] millions of years ago, right? And so the

[1:06:53] brain is doing all of these things to

[1:06:56] help you in your day-to-day life to help

[1:06:57] you navigate a very complicated world.

[1:07:00] It's pruning down all the things that

[1:07:02] are all the sensory data because if you

[1:07:06] were aware like a baby is of everything

[1:07:08] going on around you, you'd be

[1:07:10] overwhelmed. You wouldn't be able to

[1:07:12] function, right? It's too much. So it's

[1:07:14] filtering. It's pruning it down to the

[1:07:17] essentials that'll help you to survive.

[1:07:20] It creates a self, an ego that gives you

[1:07:24] the sense of an order, a consistency,

[1:07:28] memories that you can recall and it will

[1:07:31] help you learn from experience. But that

[1:07:34] self is created out of nothing. There

[1:07:35] was originally no self. It creates that,

[1:07:38] right? It creates a feeling of time. It

[1:07:42] creates a feeling of you have a separate

[1:07:44] body so that you can navigate spaces and

[1:07:47] not feel like God I'm I'm part of that

[1:07:50] wood over there and I'm going to hit it

[1:07:52] so you're separate from it so you can

[1:07:54] walk around. But these are all

[1:07:57] constructions. They are not reality. The

[1:08:00] reality is

[1:08:02] your brain is just filtering all of this

[1:08:04] data. The world looks much differently

[1:08:07] when it's not filtering. It's almost

[1:08:09] like pixels. It's almost like all of

[1:08:11] this information out there that's really

[1:08:13] weird and strange and wondrous, it's

[1:08:15] also creating a sense of of a self

[1:08:18] separate from the world. But in fact,

[1:08:20] you don't you're not separate from the

[1:08:22] world. All of your your internal your

[1:08:25] your consciousness, your everything that

[1:08:27] makes you alive is part of everything

[1:08:28] else that is around your environment.

[1:08:31] You're not a separate. You don't have a

[1:08:33] self. You don't have an ego. It's

[1:08:35] creating all of this. It's creating your

[1:08:38] reality. It's creating what you see,

[1:08:40] what you think, so that life is not

[1:08:43] overwhelming, so that you can survive.

[1:08:47] What would it be like if you didn't have

[1:08:48] these filtering mechanisms?

[1:08:52] I recommend you read a book called The

[1:08:53] Doors of Perception by Aldos Huxley.

[1:08:56] >> And Aldos Huxley has this idea of the

[1:08:58] small mind and the big mind, mind at

[1:09:01] large. The small mind is what this brain

[1:09:04] is creating for you. The mind at large

[1:09:06] is experiencing is the doors of

[1:09:09] perception opening to everything around

[1:09:11] you. It can open up too much and you

[1:09:14] would go insane because there's there's

[1:09:16] too much happening in this world. And if

[1:09:18] you've ever been on a drug trip like I

[1:09:20] used to do, it can be overwhelming. You

[1:09:24] can almost go too far and it's it's

[1:09:26] excessive.

[1:09:27] But those doors of perception are

[1:09:29] opening and you're seeing more of the

[1:09:30] world. you're perceiving more of it. And

[1:09:33] it it's a wondrous feeling. It's

[1:09:36] people are so defensive and aggressive

[1:09:39] and angry, right? Because their world is

[1:09:42] so closed and limited. But when this

[1:09:45] opens up, you lose all of those

[1:09:47] defensiveness and the world is you feel

[1:09:50] like you're part of the world itself.

[1:09:52] There's no se nothing separating you

[1:09:54] from your environment. And so people

[1:09:56] like Aldos Huxley

[1:09:59] believed that if we could see through

[1:10:02] our own brains and see through the

[1:10:04] constructions and open ourselves up, it

[1:10:07] would solve all of humanity's problems.

[1:10:10] And so I have exercises in there to sort

[1:10:14] of lead you through what I call pure

[1:10:17] perception, pure consciousness without

[1:10:19] all the filtering mechanisms,

[1:10:22] pure thinking where you're not, it's not

[1:10:25] like programmed from the outside, pure

[1:10:28] emotion. You don't realize, but your

[1:10:31] emotions are simply chemicals in your

[1:10:33] body, right? chemicals that are h

[1:10:35] hormones that are racing through your

[1:10:37] body that are creating moods. Your brain

[1:10:41] goes, "Okay, Robert, that mood is

[1:10:44] anger." You're putting a label on it.

[1:10:46] But in fact, it's not anger. It's just

[1:10:48] this kind of roing sensation inside of

[1:10:51] you. Then you think about anger and it

[1:10:53] turns into this obsessive thought. Pure

[1:10:55] emotion are just chemicals constantly

[1:10:58] roing through you. If you just feel

[1:11:00] those chemicals, then you're not going

[1:11:01] to hang on to these particular emotions

[1:11:04] that your mind is making you think

[1:11:06] about. It's a very freeing and opening

[1:11:09] experience. So, I'm taking you through

[1:11:11] these ways of kind of having pure

[1:11:13] consciousness without all of these

[1:11:15] filters going on.

[1:11:17] >> I too love Huxley and his

[1:11:21] >> framework around the like reducing

[1:11:23] valve.

[1:11:24] >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

[1:11:25] >> The sheer amount of overwhelming stimuli

[1:11:27] that is available to us. Um, which thank

[1:11:30] god you know we've had um some great

[1:11:34] people on like Neil Seth who I know you

[1:11:36] write about and Donald Hoffman and

[1:11:38] >> wow

[1:11:39] >> um lots of people in the consciousness

[1:11:40] research space and

[1:11:43] >> there's been many useful frameworks one

[1:11:45] is like the display of a computer screen

[1:11:49] you know like the user face of a

[1:11:51] computer display is very useful for

[1:11:53] navigating it but it is not at all

[1:11:56] representative of what's actually in the

[1:11:58] computer,

[1:11:59] >> you know, like

[1:12:00] >> the electricity that's running through

[1:12:02] different gates in the computer that's

[1:12:04] actually happening anytime you're typing

[1:12:05] something or sending an email.

[1:12:07] >> Um,

[1:12:09] it's Yeah, it's kind of like an analogy

[1:12:12] for the way that we perceive reality and

[1:12:14] the way that this display of experience

[1:12:16] comes to us through our

[1:12:18] >> just seeing the screen,

[1:12:19] >> right? Our five sensory experience is

[1:12:20] our screen. It's our interface. Yeah.

[1:12:23] >> Um but it's not at all exhaustive of of

[1:12:26] what's happening on an energetic level.

[1:12:29] Um we're like perceiving such a small

[1:12:33] fraction on the electromagnetic

[1:12:34] spectrum.

[1:12:35] >> Exactly.

[1:12:36] >> And it's uh it I think it definitely for

[1:12:39] me invites humility. Um and something

[1:12:43] that you write about uh Uspensky and

[1:12:45] Gurf.

[1:12:46] >> Yes. uh is is really I think powerful

[1:12:49] here because

[1:12:50] >> he refers to it as though we are in this

[1:12:52] like hypnotic sleep state walking

[1:12:54] through our life and we are so largely

[1:12:56] missing the power of our attention.

[1:12:59] >> Yeah.

[1:12:59] >> And we know that you know we live in a

[1:13:02] time where attention is being fought

[1:13:03] for. It's a commodity.

[1:13:04] >> Yeah.

[1:13:05] >> And uh I'm curious what you what your

[1:13:07] thoughts are are around um Gurf and um

[1:13:12] the the reflections on using our

[1:13:15] attention to actually be able to glean

[1:13:17] deeper into reality itself.

[1:13:19] >> Well, Gerchef is is a absolutely

[1:13:21] fascinating figure. He he uh traveled

[1:13:24] throughout the far east and the Middle

[1:13:26] East trying to learn all the secrets of

[1:13:29] various esoteric religions and cults and

[1:13:33] putting it all together into some sort

[1:13:35] of modern philosophy that would allow

[1:13:38] for transcendent experiences.

[1:13:41] And one thing that he discovered through

[1:13:43] all of these different practices was the

[1:13:46] power of attention and focus.

[1:13:49] And he says it's like this. It really is

[1:13:52] what makes us human. So an animal and I

[1:13:56] believe me I love animals and we're

[1:13:58] going to get to that very soon.

[1:14:00] >> Their their attention is is just focused

[1:14:03] here on what's immediately in front of

[1:14:05] them. Right? Okay. Maybe they they look

[1:14:07] a little bit in the distance or if

[1:14:08] you're a bird, it's a little wider, but

[1:14:12] they can't focus on things that are

[1:14:14] invisible like the future or the past or

[1:14:18] or things that are not for their senses,

[1:14:20] right? And so they they can only focus

[1:14:24] on what's immediately in front of them.

[1:14:25] But our attention is immense. We can

[1:14:28] focus on almost anything. And when we

[1:14:31] focus our attention deeply on something,

[1:14:34] these kind of miraculous things can

[1:14:36] happen. So he has this idea, he calls it

[1:14:39] self-remembering.

[1:14:41] So if you're having normally you you go

[1:14:45] through life and you have all these

[1:14:47] series of events and experiences and

[1:14:49] you're there in the moment, but then

[1:14:51] they pass and maybe 3 years from now you

[1:14:55] remember absolutely nothing of that

[1:14:57] particular day. If you thought about it,

[1:14:59] what you remember about the past is this

[1:15:02] tiny little spectrum of things that

[1:15:05] stood out. But most of the time you

[1:15:08] remember nothing, right? Why? Because

[1:15:11] you're in a state of sleep. You're in a

[1:15:13] state of hypnosis. You're walking

[1:15:15] through the streets, you're experiencing

[1:15:17] things, but they're not deeply

[1:15:19] registering to you. You're not paying

[1:15:21] attention. They're not you're not

[1:15:23] ingesting them like food. They're not a

[1:15:25] part of you. So, we have this thing

[1:15:27] called self-remembering where you're

[1:15:29] walking around and you're looking at

[1:15:31] things as almost as if you're

[1:15:33] remembering it later and so you're

[1:15:36] attending to them on this deeper deeper

[1:15:38] level so that you will so that you will

[1:15:40] have the this will actually mean

[1:15:42] something to you and it'll have

[1:15:44] intensity and depth not just the surface

[1:15:47] skimming through life. You will feel

[1:15:49] awake. You will feel every moment that

[1:15:52] you're awake and alive, right? And so

[1:15:56] Uspuspensky who was this sort of uh

[1:15:58] pupil of his was going through was was

[1:16:02] being taught by him and he decided to

[1:16:04] use this experiment of self-remembering.

[1:16:09] And he started just in the beginning of

[1:16:11] looking at a flower in a vase and going

[1:16:14] I'm remembering this. I'm remembering

[1:16:16] this. I'm seeing this. I'm alive. I'm

[1:16:18] I'm I'm I'm experiencing it here in the

[1:16:20] moment. He could only hold on to it for

[1:16:22] a few seconds because all the

[1:16:24] distracting thoughts. But then when he

[1:16:26] held on to it for like a minute,

[1:16:28] suddenly that flower like sparked to

[1:16:30] life. It was like inside of him. There

[1:16:32] was an intensity to it. It was a part of

[1:16:35] him. It suddenly realized, "Wow, this is

[1:16:38] a powerful powerful experiment I can go

[1:16:41] through." He realized the power in it

[1:16:44] that uh Gerf had experienced with all of

[1:16:46] these mystics. Now we can do it for

[1:16:48] three minutes. Now we can do it for 5

[1:16:50] minutes. Suddenly everything is like

[1:16:52] it's like taking a peyote or something.

[1:16:54] It's magical. He he takes it outside and

[1:16:57] he's walking around. He's going, "I'm

[1:16:58] remembering. I'm remembering. I'm living

[1:17:00] this. I'm I'm experiencing it." And

[1:17:02] suddenly he's having all of these

[1:17:05] visions. The houses that he's looking at

[1:17:07] are like talking to him. They're alive.

[1:17:10] You might think it's irrational, but

[1:17:11] he's not experiencing irrational. He's

[1:17:14] experienced it as if I'm waking up to my

[1:17:16] own experience. The world is now alive

[1:17:19] to me instead of sleepwalking through

[1:17:20] it. And then suddenly

[1:17:24] he finds himself in a tobacco shop like

[1:17:28] on the other side of town and he goes,

[1:17:29] "What happened? I was experiment. I was

[1:17:32] seeing all these things." Then he

[1:17:33] realized for about a half hour he fell

[1:17:36] back into a state of slumber and he ends

[1:17:38] up in a tobacco shop almost mechanically

[1:17:41] looking for cigarettes. He forgot the

[1:17:44] experiment and he returned to the state

[1:17:46] of sleepwalking. And now he could see

[1:17:48] the contrast between the normal

[1:17:51] experience of life where you're not

[1:17:53] aware of anything. You're just

[1:17:54] mechanically going through it as

[1:17:56] literally sleep and contrasting it to

[1:18:00] this different experience of life. And

[1:18:02] so I I've tried it myself, the

[1:18:05] experiment, and and it's not easy

[1:18:07] because you're constantly being

[1:18:09] distracted. But I swear to you, if you

[1:18:12] can go through it for a few minutes and

[1:18:13] just do like that flower experiment, it

[1:18:16] has and and read the chapter until I'll

[1:18:18] sort of tell you how to do it. It is

[1:18:20] incredibly powerful and it shows once

[1:18:23] you experience you see the difference

[1:18:25] between your daily life and how asleep

[1:18:28] you are and what that there's a

[1:18:30] potential for a different kind of

[1:18:31] experience.

[1:18:34] >> Yeah, I know Spency gives an example of

[1:18:36] when the attention got so concentrated

[1:18:41] that he felt he could hear the inner

[1:18:43] thoughts of Guru Jeff. And you know this

[1:18:47] is something the mystical and

[1:18:48] contemplative traditions have written

[1:18:50] great lengths around and the eight limbs

[1:18:52] of yoga are centered around like first

[1:18:54] withdrawing the senses with pratia and

[1:18:56] then developing concentration with

[1:18:58] practices

[1:18:59] >> like uh tratika which is like staring at

[1:19:01] a candle flame for 15 minutes

[1:19:04] >> and it's a it's something that I've

[1:19:09] personally practiced a good bit around

[1:19:13] because I've I've contemplated how

[1:19:17] like the dial of consciousness from

[1:19:19] being asleep, which is not

[1:19:23] metaphorically, I feel like it actually

[1:19:25] is a sort of dream state.

[1:19:27] >> Yeah.

[1:19:27] >> Um to then paying attention deeper, you

[1:19:30] start to glean insights that you

[1:19:32] otherwise like didn't occur to you about

[1:19:34] somebody that you're paying attention to

[1:19:36] or a flower or a candle flame. Um, and

[1:19:40] I just think of how much suffering comes

[1:19:43] relationally, especially because we're

[1:19:44] living in these abstractions of who

[1:19:46] somebody is and the memory of who

[1:19:48] they've been for us as opposed to being

[1:19:49] attentive to who they are in this

[1:19:51] moment.

[1:19:52] >> And um, yeah, I I found that bit on on

[1:19:55] attention really really powerful cuz I

[1:19:57] think we are suffering

[1:20:00] um like not having concentrated minds.

[1:20:02] we we we struggle to concentrate on

[1:20:05] something for reading a single page of a

[1:20:08] book let alone a conversation. Um

[1:20:11] >> yeah uh well I I part of my meditation

[1:20:15] there's this part of Zen practice called

[1:20:17] shikantaza

[1:20:19] >> which is you try and go through the full

[1:20:22] time period which for me is 40 minutes

[1:20:24] without a single thought crossing your

[1:20:27] mind right and it's it's impossible

[1:20:30] but you have you have a way of relating

[1:20:33] to your thoughts as if they are just

[1:20:36] secretions of the brain and you don't

[1:20:39] pay it you You let them come to you and

[1:20:40] you just let them wash by and then

[1:20:42] you're not thinking cuz they're just

[1:20:44] these things occurring and they just go

[1:20:46] away. So you can go through the full 30

[1:20:49] 40 minutes like that. And I tell you it

[1:20:53] it is an it is a wondrous feeling when

[1:20:55] you get through it. It's like you have a

[1:20:58] different kind of energy and a different

[1:20:59] kind of consciousness and you're only

[1:21:02] feeling the potential of it. But if you

[1:21:04] went around, that's what enlightenment

[1:21:07] is like and that's what yogis and other

[1:21:09] people who are gone deep into this. If

[1:21:12] you walked around life with that kind of

[1:21:15] focus, with that kind of no thought,

[1:21:18] mujo in in Zen, no mind,

[1:21:21] >> it it would be an awesome experience.

[1:21:24] You would realize that there is a

[1:21:25] different form of consciousness you can

[1:21:27] have.

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[1:22:28] It's uh very exciting for me to explore.

[1:22:30] And speaking of different types of

[1:22:32] consciousness that one could have,

[1:22:34] there's this whole world of interspecies

[1:22:37] sublime and and animal consciousness

[1:22:40] which again gives us insight into this

[1:22:42] realm that hey your sensory system as a

[1:22:45] human being as a homo sapien is great

[1:22:48] and it's just one lens into reality.

[1:22:50] There are many different lenses into

[1:22:52] reality. None are objectively true. Um,

[1:22:56] and so I would love for you to set the

[1:22:58] framework for the inter species and

[1:23:00] yeah, what what came up as you started

[1:23:02] to dig deeper into the animal world.

[1:23:03] >> Well, um, I'm I have a like pagans, I

[1:23:06] have a a when I said the pagan chapter,

[1:23:09] I have a deep deep relationship to

[1:23:11] animals. They they're a huge part of my

[1:23:13] life. I've always had pets and I'm

[1:23:15] obsessed with animal consciousness, with

[1:23:17] animal existence.

[1:23:19] I don't know, maybe I prefer animals to

[1:23:21] humans some days, but anyway, I so

[1:23:23] >> I think that we can all relate to that a

[1:23:25] bit. [laughter]

[1:23:27] >> Um, so this chapter meant a lot to me.

[1:23:30] Part of it is we have this word called

[1:23:32] the I don't know if I'm pronouncing

[1:23:33] right, the anthroposine.

[1:23:35] >> Yeah. Anthroposine. Yeah.

[1:23:37] >> Okay. And basically it means we've

[1:23:39] entered a period of time where

[1:23:40] everything human dominates the planet

[1:23:43] and everything is human. Everything is

[1:23:46] filtered through human experience.

[1:23:47] There's no part of wilderness on any

[1:23:49] part of the planet we haven't touched

[1:23:51] and in some way altered even Antarctica.

[1:23:54] Okay? And so you don't realize as you

[1:23:58] walk through life that everything that

[1:24:00] you encounter is through this human

[1:24:02] lens, right? You don't have to

[1:24:05] everything is laid out for you. You have

[1:24:07] your phone. Everything is oriented.

[1:24:09] You're constantly interacting with

[1:24:10] humans and it's the only world you know.

[1:24:13] Well, the animal world is a different

[1:24:16] form of consciousness. It's a different

[1:24:18] way of relating to the world. And we are

[1:24:22] gifted with this intense ability to

[1:24:25] enter into the minds of other creatures.

[1:24:28] We can do this through science which is

[1:24:30] miraculous what they're uncovering about

[1:24:32] the consciousness of bats, of whales, of

[1:24:36] dolphins, of wolves. And we have our

[1:24:40] immense powers of empathy and

[1:24:42] imagination where we can feel what it

[1:24:44] could be like to be that creature.

[1:24:47] You combine those two together and it's

[1:24:50] an amazing gift that you must use to

[1:24:52] enter into the consciousness of other

[1:24:55] creatures. And so I tell the story of a

[1:24:58] man, a young man who had a very who had

[1:25:02] a terminal illness, rheumatoid

[1:25:03] arthritis, and he was in love with

[1:25:06] birds, particularly hawks, paragine

[1:25:08] falcons in England. He was obsessed with

[1:25:11] them. And as he knows this is perhaps

[1:25:14] the last season that he can can observe

[1:25:17] them because he's he's literally dying.

[1:25:20] He says, "I am going to become a a

[1:25:22] falcon. I'm going to be I'm going to go

[1:25:24] so intensely into their world that I'm

[1:25:26] going to feel what it's like to be that

[1:25:28] paragine. And it's not just intuition.

[1:25:32] He studied everything about their

[1:25:34] physiology. He looked at maps to

[1:25:36] understand what the world would might

[1:25:38] look like when you're flying 1,000 ft up

[1:25:40] high in the sky. He studied their

[1:25:42] physiology in detail. And he followed

[1:25:44] this one falcon everywhere until he felt

[1:25:48] like he was part of it, right? He could

[1:25:50] experience it and he could almost like

[1:25:52] he would see one of their kills in the

[1:25:55] snow and he would put his hand in it and

[1:25:57] he would like taste the blood like cuz

[1:25:59] the falcon was sort of love that taste

[1:26:01] of blood of his key creatures he killed

[1:26:04] >> his commitment to the commitment to the

[1:26:06] role.

[1:26:06] >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.

[1:26:09] And at at the end of it he feels like

[1:26:11] cuz the falcon is very wary of him

[1:26:13] looking at this ugly human that's

[1:26:15] followed this pink two-legged creature

[1:26:17] that's following him everywhere. He's

[1:26:19] kind of, oh, keep away. By the end of

[1:26:21] the story, the paragine has almost

[1:26:24] accepted him so that he could walk

[1:26:26] somewhat closer up to them and he could

[1:26:28] see them like a few yards away and he

[1:26:30] sees that the fal the paragine is

[1:26:32] sleeping. The ultimate sign that they

[1:26:34] they gain this trust.

[1:26:37] But the idea is

[1:26:39] we we have this deep deep need for

[1:26:43] connecting to animals. And the reason I

[1:26:46] explain is

[1:26:48] we think of dogs and cats and cattle as

[1:26:52] domesticated animals. But we are in fact

[1:26:55] the domesticated animal parex salon.

[1:26:58] When we became agriculturists, we live

[1:27:00] in these confined spaces. We limit what

[1:27:03] we can do. We limit what we can think.

[1:27:05] We limit who we can partner with. We can

[1:27:07] limit our food supply. We are these

[1:27:10] confined domesticated animals

[1:27:13] and we are obsessed. We are fascinated

[1:27:15] by what is wild because we are no longer

[1:27:18] wild. But we know that there's a part of

[1:27:20] us that could be wild. Right? So animals

[1:27:23] are our connection to who we used to be

[1:27:25] to that sense of freedom and wildness

[1:27:28] that used to be a part of the human

[1:27:30] experience. And so we are deeply deeply

[1:27:33] attracted to them and their senses. We

[1:27:37] think our intelligence makes us

[1:27:38] superior. But when it comes to senses,

[1:27:41] we're actually quite inferior. Right? So

[1:27:44] that hawk could see things we could

[1:27:46] never perceive, right? A dog lives in a

[1:27:51] world of smells. It can smell things and

[1:27:54] and relate the entire history of people

[1:27:57] that have passed through a room. These

[1:27:59] chemicals, they can smell everything,

[1:28:01] right? Birds have these intense powers

[1:28:03] of nav of seeing the magnetic fields of

[1:28:07] earth and navigating uh robins can

[1:28:09] navigate these incredible spaces by

[1:28:12] seeing the magnetic fields. Snakes can

[1:28:15] feel the heat of other organisms and

[1:28:18] sense right um spiders and elephants are

[1:28:21] attuned to the vibrations of the

[1:28:23] environment. So we are only seeing a

[1:28:26] tiny little sliver of the world. But

[1:28:28] there are vibrations. There are acoustic

[1:28:31] things. There are vision things we can't

[1:28:33] perceive visually. There's magnetic

[1:28:35] fields. There's heat. There's all these

[1:28:37] other things that we're missing of the

[1:28:39] reality of being on planet Earth. So if

[1:28:43] you explore all of these worlds, and I

[1:28:46] go through many different many different

[1:28:48] species,

[1:28:49] it's like your own consciousness is

[1:28:51] expanding. It's like you're becoming a

[1:28:54] part of them and you're seeing

[1:28:56] a different viewpoint of planet Earth

[1:28:59] and you can kind of internalize some of

[1:29:02] this and you can also feel a deep deep

[1:29:04] connection to the to the natural world

[1:29:07] to all the organisms that exist and get

[1:29:10] you out of this kind of human lock that

[1:29:12] we're all in.

[1:29:14] It's so fascinating to contemplate what

[1:29:17] the internal experience of an octopus or

[1:29:21] elephant or bat could be like. You know,

[1:29:23] >> octopuses. So, you had a Neil Seth on,

[1:29:25] right?

[1:29:25] >> Yeah. Yeah. And I also have uh this I

[1:29:27] don't know if you've seen this book,

[1:29:28] Other Minds. Peter Gothic. He's coming

[1:29:31] out next month.

[1:29:32] >> Oh, man. I'm so jealous. [laughter]

[1:29:34] That is a fantastic book.

[1:29:35] >> Yeah. I'm excited. I I feel like the

[1:29:37] luck luckiest guy to

[1:29:39] >> You are the luckiest guy. Jesus Christ,

[1:29:41] man. Well, you could talk to all these

[1:29:43] people, too.

[1:29:44] >> Well, I could and maybe I will. Well,

[1:29:46] Neil Seth wrote an amazing article um in

[1:29:49] a book called Aliens

[1:29:50] >> in which he speculated that octopuses

[1:29:54] could be what alien consciousness could

[1:29:56] be like,

[1:29:58] >> right? Because they have distributed

[1:30:00] consciousness.

[1:30:01] >> Their consciousness is not centered in a

[1:30:02] brain. It's throughout their whole body.

[1:30:05] Their arms have um have brain cells in

[1:30:09] them. So their arms can think and each

[1:30:12] arm has like a separate personality.

[1:30:15] And so imagine if your whole body was

[1:30:18] conscious is if you could smell through

[1:30:20] your feet, if you could see through your

[1:30:23] belly. That's what an octopus can do.

[1:30:26] And that maybe is what life on other

[1:30:28] planets could be like.

[1:30:30] >> But octopuses are the most insane of all

[1:30:33] because they live three years at most.

[1:30:36] And yet they're highly intelligent.

[1:30:38] They can do things that they have a form

[1:30:41] of intelligence that's remarkable and

[1:30:43] people who've experimented with them or

[1:30:45] live with them and and other minds goes

[1:30:48] into this. It's remarkable but they're

[1:30:50] not learning from experience because

[1:30:52] they only live 3 years. Where did this

[1:30:54] insane intelligence come from

[1:30:56] sephalopods who are not, you know,

[1:30:59] mollisks who are not gifted with

[1:31:01] intelligence? It's a remarkable story. H

[1:31:06] yeah it's um you have the line that I

[1:31:09] love our loneliness is not only in

[1:31:12] relation to other humans but also in

[1:31:14] relation to nature and to all forms of

[1:31:16] life [snorts] and

[1:31:19] um you speak about you know what animals

[1:31:21] did for your own loneliness reading this

[1:31:22] book and connecting with the creatures

[1:31:24] in your backyard.

[1:31:25] >> Yeah.

[1:31:26] >> Um

[1:31:27] >> and my cats.

[1:31:29] >> I owe everything to my cats. I'm a huge

[1:31:31] cat lover.

[1:31:33] Cats are trippy.

[1:31:35] >> Um, it's something again I think we take

[1:31:39] for for granted. All of these are

[1:31:40] doorways, as you say, as well into the

[1:31:42] sublime. And certainly not only just

[1:31:45] contemplating the quality of a of an

[1:31:48] animal that's so much different than our

[1:31:51] perceptual system, but also connecting

[1:31:52] with them.

[1:31:55] Like the animal agriculture industry is,

[1:31:57] I think, an absolute abomination. And I

[1:31:59] think we are so disconnected from seeing

[1:32:02] that yes, we have this amazing intellect

[1:32:06] and that's really novel to us human

[1:32:08] beings, but they're so intelligent and

[1:32:10] emotionally connected um as as beings in

[1:32:14] their own right. And we just forget

[1:32:16] that. And um I think that is

[1:32:20] something that is sad. while there's

[1:32:23] been many gifts building these concrete

[1:32:25] jungles and the technological era that's

[1:32:28] come, but we're like also so disconnect

[1:32:29] from having that encounter with wildlife

[1:32:31] and um yeah, I'm curious

[1:32:34] >> we're lonely. Uh, I tell a story early

[1:32:37] on though in in one chapter, I think the

[1:32:39] first chapter, no third chapter maybe,

[1:32:43] of um this indigenous man of a tribe in

[1:32:47] Siberia and this Russian scientist who

[1:32:50] encounters him, Teru Usula. There's a

[1:32:54] great film made from the story if you

[1:32:55] ever want to see it. um or also a book.

[1:32:59] But he was this indigenous hunter that

[1:33:01] lived by himself and hunted uh different

[1:33:03] furs and pelts, but he was part of this

[1:33:06] indigenous culture called gold. And the

[1:33:08] scientist

[1:33:10] is uses him as a scout and they develop

[1:33:13] this relationship and this kind of love

[1:33:15] and this friendship and through him he

[1:33:18] discovers this kind of indigenous way of

[1:33:21] looking at the world. And this man, Dar

[1:33:23] Su, is so connected to the environment

[1:33:26] that he can sense what the clouds are

[1:33:29] saying about the weather. He can sense

[1:33:31] the inner lives of all the animals

[1:33:33] around him. And at one point, a tiger is

[1:33:37] like a few feet away roaring at the a

[1:33:39] Siberian tiger. You don't want to mess

[1:33:41] with that. And the scientist is like

[1:33:43] trembling. He's pulling out his rifle.

[1:33:45] And Derus says, "Put down that gun." And

[1:33:47] he walks straight up to the tiger on the

[1:33:50] other side of the bushes and he talks to

[1:33:51] him. And he says, "Sorry, Ama. I know

[1:33:54] this is your Ama, the word for tiger.

[1:33:56] This is your world. We're sorry. We

[1:33:58] don't mean to intrude. We come here in

[1:33:59] peace. We will leave you alone. This is

[1:34:01] your forest. We bow down to you." The

[1:34:04] tiger calms down and walks away. And the

[1:34:08] scientist is like, "My god." And then he

[1:34:10] realizes that we humans used to have

[1:34:13] this power. We once were so connected to

[1:34:15] our environments that we had powers of

[1:34:18] thinking and a connection to the

[1:34:20] environment where we could sense things

[1:34:23] were about to happen. We could sense the

[1:34:24] weather. We could sense storms. We could

[1:34:26] sense danger and that we've lost it all.

[1:34:29] And he wondered

[1:34:31] what in the end of the book, what if we

[1:34:33] could combine our western technological

[1:34:36] sophistication

[1:34:38] with this kind of shamanistic

[1:34:40] relationship to the world? How much

[1:34:42] richer we would be? how much more

[1:34:44] powerful we would be. And so my point is

[1:34:48] our ancestors used to have that kind of

[1:34:50] closeness to the animal world because

[1:34:52] they felt it very deeply. And all of our

[1:34:55] spiritual practices emerged from

[1:34:58] worshiping animals, worshiping large

[1:35:00] animals because we couldn't believe that

[1:35:03] bears and wolves and mastadons existed.

[1:35:06] What what created this? They had to be

[1:35:09] godlike. So our relationship to the

[1:35:11] animal world is a very very important

[1:35:13] part of who we are.

[1:35:17] >> Yeah. In the doctrines of Vidanta

[1:35:20] Buddhism like when when they explain aa

[1:35:24] and having a quality of nonviolence.

[1:35:26] >> Yes.

[1:35:26] >> And the way that it transforms the way

[1:35:28] that you relate to not just animal but

[1:35:30] all all natural life. um you commune

[1:35:33] with it differently in a way that I've

[1:35:35] experienced in pockets where you know it

[1:35:39] takes you really feeling it and

[1:35:41] believing it to walk up to a tiger and

[1:35:43] you know do in that sense but

[1:35:46] >> animals of course can sense these subtle

[1:35:49] energies of fear trepidation and um when

[1:35:53] that's not present

[1:35:55] >> I found that there's a sensitivity not

[1:35:58] with just animals but also biological

[1:36:01] life at large, trees, plant life. Um

[1:36:05] that and it and it can sound so woo woo

[1:36:08] that they communicate. It's a shame that

[1:36:10] it does.

[1:36:10] >> It's a shame though, you know, cuz it it

[1:36:12] is real. And

[1:36:14] >> um I think they respond to you

[1:36:16] differently when you come from that that

[1:36:18] place of nonviolence.

[1:36:19] >> Well, if you've ever ridden horses, I

[1:36:21] did a lot in when I was very young.

[1:36:24] Horses are are basically unfortunately

[1:36:27] highly domesticated, but they're still

[1:36:30] an element of wildness to them. They

[1:36:32] sense your fear, your fear, your legs,

[1:36:35] the tension in your legs. It's said they

[1:36:38] know that there the rider on them is

[1:36:40] somebody that's nervous and fearful and

[1:36:41] it makes them nervous and fearful and it

[1:36:44] makes them behave in bad ways. If you're

[1:36:47] relaxed and you're calm, the horse

[1:36:49] senses it not just in your legs, but it

[1:36:51] senses your energy. Dogs have that too.

[1:36:55] And cats, they can sense when you're

[1:36:57] nervous, anxious, and that infects their

[1:36:59] moods. So, they have a sensitivity

[1:37:01] that's very powerful that we have lost.

[1:37:04] I'm forgetting the study of the uh like

[1:37:08] the trace pherommones that you can

[1:37:10] actually like test and and observe in a

[1:37:12] room where somebody was just angry or

[1:37:15] just had a fight

[1:37:16] >> versus had a joyous feeling. Like we

[1:37:18] emit these things, we chemically excrete

[1:37:20] them, you know? So it's

[1:37:22] >> it's we forget because it's kind of

[1:37:24] subperceptual and we can't see the

[1:37:26] non-physical, right? Um but it is

[1:37:28] fascinating to to ex to explore that

[1:37:31] dynamic and how it's playing out.

[1:37:32] >> Yes.

[1:37:33] >> So this goes nicely into chapter 7,

[1:37:36] love. And I wanted to read this line.

[1:37:39] Brick by brick, we erect walls around

[1:37:41] us. The world is no longer vibrating

[1:37:44] within us, but is outside of us at a

[1:37:46] distance. We become spectators at the

[1:37:49] banquet of life. And I'm curious for you

[1:37:51] just to elaborate a little bit more

[1:37:53] about this feeling that I think we can

[1:37:54] all relate to at times. Feeling like

[1:37:56] there is life. I'm a spectator of it and

[1:37:59] not involved with it to the same degree.

[1:38:01] So um what is the love sublime?

[1:38:05] Well um you know we're we're biologic

[1:38:08] physiological creatures. We have a need

[1:38:11] a drive to to reproduce to mate. um

[1:38:15] we're attracted to certain people and um

[1:38:20] and that sexual desire can translate

[1:38:23] into something deeper which is love and

[1:38:26] we might think it's only human but I do

[1:38:28] believe animals have it in a different

[1:38:30] way but it's a strange phenomenon if you

[1:38:33] think about it and we use the metaphor

[1:38:36] of falling in love which I think is is

[1:38:39] very eloquent.

[1:38:41] So when you're falling, there's a sense

[1:38:44] of vulnerability and fear because you

[1:38:48] fall very deeply and you know what

[1:38:50] what's at the bottom, right? Could be

[1:38:52] death. And so the the act of falling in

[1:38:56] love with another person involves a

[1:38:58] sense of fear like I'm opening myself

[1:39:01] up. I'm vulnerable. They could hurt me

[1:39:03] at any point. I'm letting them into my

[1:39:06] life. I'm becoming emotional

[1:39:08] and I could be damaged by this, right?

[1:39:12] If they abandon me, if they choose to

[1:39:14] ignore me, if they don't fall in love

[1:39:15] with me. And so we catch ourselves as

[1:39:18] we're falling, we stop here and we go,

[1:39:21] wait a minute, I'm not sure about this.

[1:39:24] And then when we get to that moment of

[1:39:26] wait a minute and all these kind of

[1:39:28] thoughts starts percolating in us about

[1:39:30] maybe they don't love us, maybe they can

[1:39:31] hurt us, maybe I can't trust them, they

[1:39:34] sense that as well and they might have

[1:39:37] been falling and they sense you're

[1:39:39] hitting that level and stopping and it

[1:39:41] causes them to stop and a kind of a

[1:39:43] mutual mistrust starts building. And so

[1:39:47] we walk around with all of these walls

[1:39:49] inside of us. We want to feel protected

[1:39:53] and our egos they may cause us pain of

[1:39:56] being separated but they also protect us

[1:39:58] from any kind of pain but they separate

[1:40:01] us from the world at large. They

[1:40:03] separate us from being open and involved

[1:40:05] in in experience and so your ego is

[1:40:09] trying to protect you and then other

[1:40:12] people will come will intervene and say

[1:40:13] oh that other person they may not be

[1:40:15] good for you. you may not be able to

[1:40:16] trust them. Blah blah blah blah blah.

[1:40:18] And then the sense of falling is broken.

[1:40:21] The spell is broken. It may go on for a

[1:40:24] few more months, but it's kind of

[1:40:25] dragging its feet. It's no longer love.

[1:40:27] It's like something else.

[1:40:30] You've you separate and now you know

[1:40:32] you've had that feeling of falling and

[1:40:34] it was one. It was kind of wondrous the

[1:40:36] first months of falling in love with

[1:40:38] someone, then it stopped, but you want

[1:40:40] it again. So, you find another person

[1:40:43] and then you start doing that again. And

[1:40:44] you stop again. You stop. You stop. You

[1:40:46] stop. You stop. You keep You never allow

[1:40:48] yourself to fall.

[1:40:51] And I tell the story of perhaps the

[1:40:53] greatest love story in Western history

[1:40:55] of Ablard Eloise. And the sensation of

[1:40:58] just falling completely where you lose

[1:41:02] all of your defenses, you lose all of

[1:41:04] your ego and you let the consciousness

[1:41:07] of another person merge inside of you

[1:41:10] and become a part of you. It's not like

[1:41:12] you lose who you are, but you feel deep.

[1:41:15] The other person is no longer an object,

[1:41:18] but they're a subject. They're part of

[1:41:19] you. They're inside of you to some

[1:41:21] degree. It's the most ecstatic, sublime,

[1:41:24] transcendent experience I believe humans

[1:41:27] can have because we are both physical

[1:41:31] and spiritual creatures. Sex is just

[1:41:34] pure physicality. Without the

[1:41:36] spirituality, it feels at the end kind

[1:41:38] of empty. Spirituality is great.

[1:41:41] Religion is great. But we're animal.

[1:41:43] We're physical creatures. There's

[1:41:45] something is missing.

[1:41:47] Putting the two together, the

[1:41:49] physicality and the spirituality and a

[1:41:50] love for another human being is a

[1:41:52] completely transcendent experience. But

[1:41:55] in order to do that, you have to allow

[1:41:57] that process of falling. And we live in

[1:42:00] a culture that very much degrades and

[1:42:04] denigrates that sense of falling in

[1:42:06] love. It seems romantic and sentimental.

[1:42:09] We think of love as being something of

[1:42:11] comfort and security and two people kind

[1:42:14] of just sort of helping each other and

[1:42:16] it's kind of milktoasty. It's lost its

[1:42:18] intensity.

[1:42:20] And what I'm trying to say in the book

[1:42:22] is love is an act of rebellion against a

[1:42:25] world that is so ugly and disenchanted

[1:42:27] and that wants that there's so many

[1:42:28] defenses. You're you're you're raising a

[1:42:31] middle finger to this culture and saying

[1:42:33] I'm rebelling against I'm rebelling

[1:42:35] against the narcissism and I'm going to

[1:42:37] let go of all my defenses and I'm going

[1:42:39] to give myself over to someone even if

[1:42:42] they hurt me. If they hurt me, so what?

[1:42:45] I'll rebound. I'm tough enough. I can

[1:42:47] handle it. I'll find someone else. But I

[1:42:50] just want to say the sense of letting

[1:42:53] yourself merge with another person and

[1:42:56] letting go of all your defenses can lead

[1:42:59] in some ways to the most sublime

[1:43:00] experience of all.

[1:43:03] You mentioned that we

[1:43:07] typically stop at a certain level of

[1:43:09] depth because of the fear it evokes for

[1:43:11] a loss of our individual self. um our de

[1:43:15] our defense mechanisms which we you know

[1:43:18] likely have a lifetime of evidence

[1:43:20] backing and it's scary in that process

[1:43:24] and I think we do live in a culture

[1:43:26] especially the younger generations where

[1:43:28] there's so much optionality

[1:43:30] um and you discard something the moment

[1:43:32] something uncomfortable happens

[1:43:34] >> and I'm curious what do you think

[1:43:36] happens when you stop

[1:43:39] >> resisting

[1:43:41] the potential you have to love and um

[1:43:45] take away somebody being an object and

[1:43:47] like you said commune with them as a

[1:43:49] subject and let that open and kind of

[1:43:51] break your heart in a sense.

[1:43:53] >> Yeah. Well, our our metaphor for for

[1:43:56] relationships between any kind of

[1:43:59] romance, gay or straight, is the

[1:44:01] marketplace. It's

[1:44:04] right. I can exchange one person for

[1:44:06] another. I can shop and I can find

[1:44:08] somebody better. There's always somebody

[1:44:10] better out there. But your um initial

[1:44:14] attraction to somebody

[1:44:17] is is there's a reason for it. There's

[1:44:19] something deep going on. It could be

[1:44:21] something primal. It could be something

[1:44:23] to do with your childhood. And if you

[1:44:25] look at the people you're attracted to,

[1:44:27] you will notice patterns. You'll notice

[1:44:29] a certain kind of look, a certain kind

[1:44:31] of energy that you are attracted to. And

[1:44:35] so the the thing that's stopping you is

[1:44:38] your mind. It is not the reality. So we

[1:44:42] are um emotional creatures, not so much

[1:44:46] intellectual but emotional creatures.

[1:44:48] We pick up the emotions of the other

[1:44:50] person like a virus. And when the other

[1:44:53] person is open and vulnerable and

[1:44:55] expresses a deep need to fall, we're

[1:44:58] invited to fall with them, right? And

[1:45:00] then the mutual process can occur and

[1:45:03] something profound can happen. Okay? But

[1:45:06] if we start closing ourselves off, as I

[1:45:08] said, the other person feels it and they

[1:45:11] close themselves off. And you know, if

[1:45:15] you can think of all the moments in your

[1:45:17] own life where someone actually sees you

[1:45:21] as an individual

[1:45:23] that kind of recognizes that you have a

[1:45:25] different experience from me, that you

[1:45:27] have a separate consciousness, that you

[1:45:29] have your own values, your own problems,

[1:45:31] your own emotions, that you are a

[1:45:33] subject, not an object.

[1:45:36] You could count on on one hand and less

[1:45:39] than one hand the amount of times you've

[1:45:40] had that feeling. But we all crave it.

[1:45:43] We all crave to have somebody recognize

[1:45:46] us not as an object to use for their

[1:45:49] satisfaction, for their sexual desires,

[1:45:52] but as an a subject that they can relate

[1:45:55] to that we can explore together in this

[1:45:58] kind of mutual exploration of what I

[1:46:01] call the love sublime.

[1:46:05] that distinction you give of

[1:46:08] our willingness to surrender to another.

[1:46:11] I'm curious how you contrast that with

[1:46:13] your work on seduction.

[1:46:14] >> Uhhuh.

[1:46:16] >> Because yeah, you've written the book on

[1:46:18] seduction.

[1:46:19] >> Yes, I have.

[1:46:19] >> And not the book, a book [laughter]

[1:46:22] >> in my words, you know, it's

[1:46:24] [clears throat]

[1:46:24] one wy recognized as, you know, one of

[1:46:27] the books on on on seduction seinal for

[1:46:29] sure. and um on the the strategy and the

[1:46:33] keeping the other person off balance and

[1:46:35] the uh the play that's at that. So, how

[1:46:37] do you cont?

[1:46:38] >> Well, it's a different book. It's a

[1:46:39] different uh subject matter.

[1:46:42] >> So, the art of seduction

[1:46:44] is you could use it to have someone fall

[1:46:48] in love with you and then you fall in

[1:46:49] love with them. But it's really about

[1:46:52] seduction, right? And the psychological

[1:46:54] process that's involved. And yes,

[1:46:57] there's a degree of manipulation and

[1:46:59] power games going on. And there's a kind

[1:47:01] of trans transgressive element because

[1:47:03] the word seduction kind of conjures up

[1:47:06] something a little bit dastardly and a

[1:47:08] little bit evil to us. I kind of embrace

[1:47:11] that in the book and I describe it and I

[1:47:14] describe the vast literature of

[1:47:16] seduction which kind of fascinates me

[1:47:19] because the psychological process

[1:47:23] is pretty damn intriguing when it comes

[1:47:25] to u sexual seductions, political

[1:47:29] seductions, marketing seductions, social

[1:47:31] seductions. What is it about the human

[1:47:34] brain that allows us to be seduced by

[1:47:37] another person? Okay, that is what I'm

[1:47:40] examining in that book. And so this is

[1:47:44] different. I agree. People will want to

[1:47:46] say, "Well, Robert, you've evolved.

[1:47:48] You're you're a higher big." I don't

[1:47:50] look at myself that way. I don't see

[1:47:53] breaks in that. It's a different book

[1:47:55] for a different time in my life, for

[1:47:57] maybe a different cultural moment,

[1:47:59] although a lot of people are still

[1:48:00] reading that book. But I will say one

[1:48:03] thing. I describe in the art of

[1:48:06] seduction the quintessential seduction

[1:48:09] lit fiction story dangerous leaisonants

[1:48:12] and there's this dastardly

[1:48:15] seducer named Val Mo who's seduced

[1:48:18] hundreds of women and he's the most

[1:48:20] manipulative evil seducer you could

[1:48:22] imagine. He meets this woman, President

[1:48:25] Turl, who's very prudish, very

[1:48:28] religious, and she's beautiful. And he

[1:48:30] decided, it's the ultimate challenge. If

[1:48:33] I could seduce this prude, then I will

[1:48:36] be famous throughout France, and I will

[1:48:38] have conquered the most impossible

[1:48:40] person. She resists him because she

[1:48:43] knows his horrible reputation. She

[1:48:44] resists. She resists. She resists. And

[1:48:46] as she keeps resisting him, he finds

[1:48:49] himself falling in love with her. He

[1:48:52] starts seeing that there's something

[1:48:53] about her spirit and her power that

[1:48:56] there's something else he didn't

[1:48:57] realize.

[1:48:59] And he starts letting go of his need to

[1:49:02] seduce. And he finds himself despite

[1:49:04] himself falling in love with her. And as

[1:49:07] he falls in love with her, she starts

[1:49:09] lowering her defenses and she starts

[1:49:11] falling for him because maybe he's not

[1:49:14] this evil seducer. She feels him falling

[1:49:16] in love with her. And then the seduction

[1:49:19] proceeds and of course he ends up

[1:49:21] seducing her and he ends up ruining her

[1:49:24] in her own way. But the lesson of it was

[1:49:27] in order to seduce her he had to fall in

[1:49:29] love with her. And that falling in love

[1:49:31] created a mutual kind of energy between

[1:49:34] them which is similar to what I'm

[1:49:36] describing in in this chapter. But I

[1:49:39] will say seduction and love sublime are

[1:49:41] different phenomena that I'm writing

[1:49:43] about.

[1:49:43] >> Yeah. And I appreciate that you aren't

[1:49:46] as precious with your own work to ever

[1:49:48] pigeon hole yourself into like, all

[1:49:50] right, I'm just exploring the

[1:49:51] underbelly, the dark side of human

[1:49:53] nature.

[1:49:54] >> Acknowledge it. It's very real. If you

[1:49:56] don't have awareness to the way it's

[1:49:58] operating, then you will it will be used

[1:50:00] against you. Um, and then there's also

[1:50:02] this more transcendent way of of living

[1:50:05] and falling in love and surrendering

[1:50:06] that is available. Um, and I think,

[1:50:09] yeah, having context and awareness for

[1:50:11] both is is incredibly important. Ah.

[1:50:14] >> Um, again making our way around around

[1:50:17] town on the circle,

[1:50:19] >> the circle of the sublime. Um,

[1:50:22] >> is the historical sublime which we can

[1:50:25] touch here um

[1:50:28] because I love how you explore we don't

[1:50:32] remember. We have this amnesia of all

[1:50:35] the ways that we are culturally through

[1:50:38] the myths and the stories and the

[1:50:40] languages that have been passed down

[1:50:41] shaping the way that we think about the

[1:50:44] world and of self. And um so it's

[1:50:47] something that's really uh excited me to

[1:50:50] even just dive more into history at

[1:50:52] large. And I think that um I yeah, I

[1:50:56] would just love for you to explain why

[1:50:57] is that such an important aspect that

[1:50:59] you felt you wanted to touch on here as

[1:51:00] I know you're a lover of history and the

[1:51:02] way that it informs our present.

[1:51:06] Well, um I had this notion while writing

[1:51:09] the book and I've had it before. I can't

[1:51:12] really explain because these are things

[1:51:13] are hard to verbalize, but I have the

[1:51:15] word there. And what I mean by that

[1:51:17] we're there and in my notes I'd always

[1:51:19] kind of write that is I'd be reading a

[1:51:22] story and I'd have this feeling that I

[1:51:24] was there that I could experience what

[1:51:28] it was like to be in ancient Rome that I

[1:51:30] was walking down the streets of ancient

[1:51:32] Rome and there were the shops and these

[1:51:34] things going on and I was there and I

[1:51:37] have this over and over again even in

[1:51:40] cultures that are so disperate like the

[1:51:42] Aztecs or watching a movie that takes

[1:51:45] place in Japan. pan in the 30s or 40s.

[1:51:49] It's a sensation of I'm human. I I can

[1:51:53] almost recall or feel what it was like

[1:51:55] to be there at that moment.

[1:51:58] And so I have this idea that history can

[1:52:01] be either something dead or alive.

[1:52:04] Your dead history is a bunch of facts.

[1:52:06] Napoleon conquered this country. He had

[1:52:09] these many soldiers. He used this

[1:52:11] strategy.

[1:52:13] Or there's a live history where I'm

[1:52:15] literally Napoleon Bonapart feeling, you

[1:52:19] know, my ego and my sense of pride and

[1:52:21] my superiority and the drama of the

[1:52:24] moment I'm in and I'm alive. I'm a human

[1:52:26] being living through this moment.

[1:52:28] Napoleon isn't this fantastic. He was a

[1:52:30] human being like you or I. He had

[1:52:31] conscious. He had emotions. He had

[1:52:33] insecurities.

[1:52:35] That is living history. And it's

[1:52:37] something that lives inside of us

[1:52:39] because we think of ourselves as just

[1:52:41] living in this present moment. But we

[1:52:43] are part of this stream of history. And

[1:52:47] we use language for our thinking. We

[1:52:50] have thoughts. We have ideas. We have

[1:52:52] concepts. We have cliches that we use in

[1:52:55] our language. They're not our own. We

[1:52:58] did not invent our language. We did not

[1:53:00] invent how our brain thinks. It's the

[1:53:02] product of thousands of years of

[1:53:05] evolution. And so the dead, the ghosts

[1:53:07] of the past are inside our brain right

[1:53:09] now. All the practices of the past, all

[1:53:13] the social things about strangers and

[1:53:16] weariness of strangers, which is part of

[1:53:19] our culture now with how we treat

[1:53:20] immigrants is a very human experience,

[1:53:23] right? It's in us. Social customs like

[1:53:26] that on and on and on. Our brains were

[1:53:29] formed thousands of years ago. It's the

[1:53:31] same brain. We're filled with these

[1:53:33] ghosts and these dead of the past and

[1:53:35] they're alive within us. So I want the

[1:53:38] reader as I tell these stories in

[1:53:40] history to feel like they are alive,

[1:53:42] that they are there in that moment.

[1:53:46] And I tell the story to introduce the

[1:53:48] chapter, one of my favorite stories in

[1:53:50] the book of these cave explorers in

[1:53:53] France who come upon a cave with the

[1:53:57] most magnificent cave paintings, one of

[1:53:59] the most magnificent cave paintings. I

[1:54:01] highly recommend this Verer Herdsog

[1:54:03] documentary about it. The cave of

[1:54:06] forgotten dreams. You will see what I

[1:54:08] mean. They are absolutely spectacular.

[1:54:11] Horses and mastadons and tigers etc.

[1:54:16] They're alive. They're so vivid. And

[1:54:18] these modern explorers are in this cave.

[1:54:21] They're the first ones to see it in

[1:54:23] 37,000 years.

[1:54:26] And they're so moved. They're so

[1:54:27] astounded by it. They feel the past come

[1:54:30] alive within them 37,000 years later.

[1:54:34] Right? And you have to ask yourself,

[1:54:38] what is it about human experience that's

[1:54:40] transcend such vast amounts of time?

[1:54:43] They could feel the rituals that were

[1:54:45] going on in this cave. They could feel

[1:54:47] the power of these animals. It's because

[1:54:51] we have the same brains as they do. We

[1:54:54] respond to the same things, the same

[1:54:55] patterns, the same aesthetic, the same

[1:54:58] abstraction of animals on a wall. We are

[1:55:02] creatures of the past. And the more we

[1:55:05] feel that inside of us now, then we feel

[1:55:08] something of eternity, of timelessness.

[1:55:11] We're not just living in the present.

[1:55:13] We're living through millions of years

[1:55:15] of evolution. And that's that's inside

[1:55:17] of us, not outside of us. H

[1:55:20] what do you think is one of the most

[1:55:22] predominant ways in which language in

[1:55:24] particular is shaping

[1:55:27] what we think is possible the way we

[1:55:29] relate to each other? Um yeah what what

[1:55:32] do you think is the predominant way in

[1:55:34] which the dead is controlling our

[1:55:36] present?

[1:55:37] Well um yeah our language is limiting.

[1:55:41] It's a constriction on on what we

[1:55:42] experience. But I can say this, having

[1:55:45] studied um ancient Greek, um

[1:55:49] their vocabulary was much wider than our

[1:55:52] own. And so they had words for colors

[1:55:57] that we can't even we have blue, blue.

[1:56:00] They had like 25 different words for

[1:56:03] blue. And that meant that they were

[1:56:05] seeing different shades of blue as they

[1:56:08] walked around. But we just see this one

[1:56:10] thing, right? And so language kind of

[1:56:14] limits your experience by the vocabulary

[1:56:16] that we use if we don't have words for

[1:56:18] things. We don't experience them. But

[1:56:21] think of how many words we don't have

[1:56:23] for my wife and I have this interesting

[1:56:25] experiment. She she's half Japanese. She

[1:56:28] knows some Japanese. And the Japanese

[1:56:30] have these words for things don't exist

[1:56:34] in English. like the feeling of

[1:56:36] someone's the back of their head and

[1:56:38] what is going on from the I I don't even

[1:56:41] you know better than I do probably. No,

[1:56:43] no, no. That's um and one I love is I

[1:56:47] think Kamar Rebei. It's like the dappled

[1:56:49] sunlight through the trees that like you

[1:56:51] ever walk into a room and there's like

[1:56:53] the the sun that's that's beaming in

[1:56:55] through a window that's like making

[1:56:56] pattern. That's so beautiful. Like

[1:56:58] that's a word that describes that.

[1:57:00] >> And I think of um you know there's that

[1:57:04] saying that Eskimos have a 100 different

[1:57:05] names for snow.

[1:57:06] >> That's right. And in the Sanskrit tra

[1:57:09] you know language and tradition they

[1:57:11] have so many words for our inner realm.

[1:57:14] >> Yeah.

[1:57:14] >> Right. Where

[1:57:16] >> the our our modern English language has

[1:57:18] is is great for the scientific endeavor.

[1:57:21] >> Um and I just of course just like we

[1:57:23] talked about no one perceptual system or

[1:57:26] sensory system is exhaustive of of all

[1:57:28] of reality. No one language is going to

[1:57:30] give us full full insight into into

[1:57:33] reality. Um it will never always fall

[1:57:35] short. But it is just fascinating how

[1:57:38] we're limited in ways we don't know.

[1:57:41] Like we don't know what we don't know in

[1:57:42] the way that we're using language and

[1:57:44] how it's limiting us.

[1:57:45] >> Well, the the prevailing metaphor for us

[1:57:48] now in the 21st century is the computer

[1:57:50] and algorithms and we think of the mind

[1:57:53] as a machine and we talk like that. You

[1:57:55] know, the our brains is like software

[1:57:57] and files in our mind etc.

[1:58:01] >> But in the past the metaphors were very

[1:58:03] different. And in that ch in this

[1:58:05] chapter we're talking about I describe

[1:58:08] I try and relive a moment in London

[1:58:10] England in the year 1749

[1:58:13] what it would be like and how different

[1:58:15] humans are. The prevailing metaphor was

[1:58:17] the theater. We are all actors on a

[1:58:21] stage and everyone's wearing a costume

[1:58:24] and everyone's playing a part and maybe

[1:58:27] we could play different parts and have

[1:58:28] fun and wear different costumes. And so

[1:58:31] when you have that kind of metaphor,

[1:58:34] you have a different set of language and

[1:58:36] everything sort of centers around the

[1:58:39] social personality. And the if you read

[1:58:42] like a novel of Jane Austin, which is,

[1:58:45] you know, 70 years later, the

[1:58:47] descriptions of the social nicities

[1:58:50] going on between people is intense. We

[1:58:53] don't think like that. We don't have

[1:58:54] that vocabulary.

[1:58:56] the Eskimos with their 50 different

[1:58:58] words for snow. Jane Austin has 50

[1:59:02] different words for all of the weird

[1:59:03] interactions between men and women, all

[1:59:05] the weird emotions passing between them.

[1:59:08] Because our metaphor is the computer,

[1:59:10] our language is kind of shrinking down

[1:59:12] to one of those manuals of computer

[1:59:15] speak, right? We're losing this kind of

[1:59:17] richness of describing things that go

[1:59:20] beyond just sort of technical technical

[1:59:23] phenomena.

[1:59:25] Yeah, I think of things like the DSM and

[1:59:27] all the diagnoses that we have for the

[1:59:30] mental ailments that are so prevalent in

[1:59:32] modern culture. Compare it to the um

[1:59:36] contemplative practices and how we just

[1:59:38] have like meditation is just one word

[1:59:40] that describes somebody sitting still

[1:59:42] peacefully is like kind of our word

[1:59:44] >> and you know there's

[1:59:45] >> there's dana, dhana, shunya, so many

[1:59:48] different words that describe different

[1:59:50] things that you could be doing while

[1:59:51] meditating, right? Yeah.

[1:59:53] >> Um and so it's it's fascinating and is

[1:59:56] something that uh you explore as we go

[1:59:58] into the next one of the Damon.

[2:00:00] >> Yeah.

[2:00:00] >> Um because

[2:00:02] it certainly feels like as the

[2:00:05] sociologist Culie um is quote is like I

[2:00:08] am not who I think I am. I'm not who you

[2:00:11] think I am. I am who I think you think I

[2:00:14] am. And we live in this perpetual image

[2:00:17] management.

[2:00:18] >> Yeah. Um, and so I would love for you

[2:00:20] just to lay out the the, you know, first

[2:00:23] second self and what a Damon is. Um, so

[2:00:27] that we can get a little bit closer to

[2:00:28] what is and who we are in our essence

[2:00:31] and essentially are. [snorts]

[2:00:33] Well, one day uh I think I awoke from a

[2:00:36] dream and I had this image in my head

[2:00:39] and the image was the real world or who

[2:00:43] I am, sorry, is just this jumbled black

[2:00:46] and white picture that you can barely

[2:00:48] focus on that's very chaotic. It's like

[2:00:51] this weird work of art. And that my mind

[2:00:54] then converts all that into this image

[2:00:57] of me in a mirror and who I am. But in

[2:01:00] fact, I'm a chaos of all these different

[2:01:02] impulse impulses that go flow through

[2:01:04] me. So we have a very simplified image

[2:01:09] of who we are. It's like how the brain I

[2:01:12] said constructs our reality.

[2:01:15] And the demon is a concept from ancient

[2:01:19] Greek. But if you study ancient

[2:01:21] religions and cultures, you will see

[2:01:23] that almost all of them have a similar

[2:01:26] concept. They had it in ancient Egypt

[2:01:27] called the ba. And basically what it is

[2:01:31] is the gods

[2:01:34] in the Greek sense were pied humans who

[2:01:37] were so lost and so miserable. They have

[2:01:39] no sense of the future or what's really

[2:01:41] going on around them. So out of pity

[2:01:43] they implanted in each human a day, a

[2:01:47] kind of god, a demigod in there that is

[2:01:50] fitted to their individuality, to their

[2:01:52] soul. It is actually a word for soul,

[2:01:54] right? And this don is placed in there

[2:01:57] by the god aeros. So there's an element

[2:01:59] of love and erotic element to it. And as

[2:02:02] they go through life, the don will speak

[2:02:05] to them of where they should be, what

[2:02:07] they should do, but it's completely

[2:02:10] themselves. that has nothing to do with

[2:02:12] anybody else. It's fitted precisely to

[2:02:14] who they are as an individual.

[2:02:17] And if you think of that, what it

[2:02:19] represents is you are not this

[2:02:22] sophisticated creature with all these

[2:02:24] languages and all these social layers

[2:02:26] and personalities.

[2:02:28] You are just this organism with an

[2:02:31] energy, with a biology, with a

[2:02:32] physiology. Your heart beats to

[2:02:35] particular rhythm. Your blood flows in

[2:02:37] its own way. You have your own energy

[2:02:40] about you that has nothing to do with

[2:02:41] words, that has nothing to do with

[2:02:43] concepts or categories. It's you as this

[2:02:46] biological creature with your very

[2:02:49] unique DNA with this particular way your

[2:02:52] brain is wired unlike any other human

[2:02:55] being. You are completely unique. You

[2:02:57] are a true individual and that is your

[2:03:00] dayong. That is life implanting itself

[2:03:04] in you. It's kind of a transcendent

[2:03:05] force.

[2:03:08] to to us today that seems God that's

[2:03:10] just so goddamn irrational. How silly,

[2:03:13] Robert? How woo woo can you get? Right.

[2:03:16] But I don't think of it that way. I like

[2:03:18] to I like to um sort of translate it

[2:03:21] into these terms that I I just

[2:03:23] mentioned. And the reason why it seems

[2:03:25] so alien to us is we're so captured by

[2:03:28] the social. We're so captured by how

[2:03:31] other people look at us, how they judge

[2:03:33] us, that we have no idea anymore of who

[2:03:36] we are. Oh, I'm shy. I'm ambitious.

[2:03:41] I'm successful.

[2:03:43] I'm I'm insecure. But they're all in

[2:03:46] relation to how other people judge you.

[2:03:48] You think you're shy. Okay, you're shy.

[2:03:51] But in other situations with some

[2:03:53] people, you're not so shy. You're shy in

[2:03:55] front of your boss but in front of

[2:03:57] children you kind and some people you

[2:03:59] open up. So who are you? You're not

[2:04:01] these qualities that you think that you

[2:04:03] have. You're a mystery to yourself. You

[2:04:06] are so alienated from who you truly are

[2:04:09] that you think that this social mirrors

[2:04:12] of judgments of categories is who you

[2:04:15] are. Right? But there's something much

[2:04:17] deeper. There's something much more

[2:04:19] authentic about you. It is a voice in

[2:04:22] your head that if you listen to is

[2:04:25] telling you these are things that are

[2:04:28] you that are natural to you. These are

[2:04:30] things that attract you. These are

[2:04:31] things that repel you. This is who you

[2:04:33] are as this biological creature that has

[2:04:36] a particular energy.

[2:04:39] And even if you and if you tap into it

[2:04:42] and if you hear that voice, it's very

[2:04:45] very powerful. It guides you.

[2:04:48] I've always had this feeling since I was

[2:04:51] pretty young that there was something

[2:04:53] kind of guiding me in life. I've made a

[2:04:56] lot of mistakes. I did not have any

[2:04:59] success until I was 38, 39 years old. I

[2:05:03] was wandering through life. I was lost.

[2:05:05] I had moments of deep depression. I even

[2:05:07] had moments of suicide, suicidal

[2:05:10] thoughts. But there was always something

[2:05:11] in the back of my mind that was guiding

[2:05:13] me that was saying, "Stop that. Go here.

[2:05:16] Don't don't go this direction, go that

[2:05:18] direction. Almost like a feeling of like

[2:05:21] fate. And when I listened to it and I

[2:05:23] had this horrible job and I quit the

[2:05:26] job, I knew I was like aligning with

[2:05:29] that voice inside of me. And then, you

[2:05:32] know, I happened to write the books that

[2:05:34] I have and my life changed. But that

[2:05:37] feeling like there is a fate that fits

[2:05:39] you, that's that's you. And when you

[2:05:43] follow it, things good things happen.

[2:05:45] And when you ignore it, you turn into

[2:05:47] dead ends and you become so depressed,

[2:05:49] you don't know why. I think it's a very

[2:05:52] alive concept and it's the don and I

[2:05:54] want to reintroduce it to the modern

[2:05:56] audience to think that you have a second

[2:05:59] self buried deep within all these social

[2:06:02] layers that you think you are but are

[2:06:04] not you. They're just reflections of

[2:06:06] what other people think you are.

[2:06:10] I resonate so much with what you said in

[2:06:12] the way that

[2:06:15] It's easy to get lost in the

[2:06:17] descriptions of self continually through

[2:06:19] the relations of others and how they see

[2:06:22] you. And it's it's dead cuz you're

[2:06:25] listen you're looking through a mirror

[2:06:26] of a mirror instead of listening from

[2:06:28] the the to the source and that primary

[2:06:31] self. And

[2:06:35] um I'm curious about clarifying that cuz

[2:06:37] you also wrote an amazing book on

[2:06:39] mastery which is like finding your

[2:06:41] life's task, devoting yourself to it,

[2:06:43] the apprenticeship of it

[2:06:44] >> where whereas the mastery book feels

[2:06:46] like building towards

[2:06:49] a life. This is like I think orienting

[2:06:52] towards like listening a little bit more

[2:06:53] in the way that you've been writing

[2:06:54] about it and

[2:06:58] certainly one of the most immediate

[2:07:00] accesses I've had to my own personal

[2:07:02] experience of Sublime are when those

[2:07:04] moments especially like on this podcast

[2:07:06] where I feel like I'm I'm all the things

[2:07:09] that I love and that I'm good at and my

[2:07:11] skill sets come together in this boiling

[2:07:12] pot of like an offering that's

[2:07:14] contributing to the world in a

[2:07:15] meaningful way.

[2:07:16] >> And I think we all yearn for that

[2:07:17] feeling. And um I'm curious how we and

[2:07:20] how you've learned through your

[2:07:22] research, through your own personal

[2:07:24] life, been able to discover and clarify

[2:07:27] listening to what is that original

[2:07:29] primary self, maybe you call it the

[2:07:30] second self, but that Damon that that

[2:07:33] voice that has an intelligent kind of

[2:07:35] guidance system for you. How do you

[2:07:37] clarify to actually really hear that

[2:07:39] more?

[2:07:41] Well, you know, it's hard for me to

[2:07:45] understand other people sometimes and

[2:07:48] it's particularly in light of mastery

[2:07:49] because I call it in mastery your life's

[2:07:52] task, which is another word for it. And

[2:07:55] a lot of people afterwards would come to

[2:07:57] me and for advice and say, "Robert, I

[2:07:59] have no idea what my life's task is.

[2:08:01] Help me find it."

[2:08:03] And the hard problem for me is I always

[2:08:06] had a sense of it since I was a child.

[2:08:08] Words in language and books

[2:08:12] enchanted me. They were so rich. They

[2:08:15] were so exciting that I knew that this

[2:08:17] is where I had to be in life. And even

[2:08:20] though I had moments where I lost it, I

[2:08:22] always found myself back to that. I knew

[2:08:24] I couldn't do anything else. I couldn't

[2:08:26] get into science. I couldn't get into

[2:08:27] computers. I was not gifted for anything

[2:08:30] else but words. And so it's hard for me

[2:08:34] to understand, but I've had to put

[2:08:36] myself in other people's shoes.

[2:08:39] And the problem is you don't hear that

[2:08:42] voice because you're hearing a thousand

[2:08:44] other voices in your head. You're

[2:08:47] hearing the voice of your parents plays

[2:08:49] a huge role. I had this moment in my

[2:08:53] meditation this morning where I was

[2:08:55] going I was being aware of myself and I

[2:08:59] was going Robert stop thinking stop

[2:09:01] having these thoughts and I'm going

[2:09:03] where is that voice coming from? Who is

[2:09:05] that saying that? And then I realize

[2:09:09] that it was a voice probably from my

[2:09:11] mother who was always observing me as a

[2:09:14] child and kind of scrutinizing me and

[2:09:16] judging me. and I've internalized her

[2:09:19] voice and I'm always scrutinizing and

[2:09:21] judging myself. And so I became aware

[2:09:24] that I was performing in front of this

[2:09:26] invisible audience continually through

[2:09:29] my life. So you have these voices inside

[2:09:32] of you from your parents, from your

[2:09:35] peers, your your friends, from your

[2:09:37] colleagues at work, from social media,

[2:09:40] the thousand different voices that you

[2:09:42] were hearing on your Instagram feed. And

[2:09:45] you have no idea anymore who you are.

[2:09:47] You become a reflection of all the

[2:09:49] different things going on in the culture

[2:09:52] and you have no relationship to that day

[2:09:55] to that ex that life's task that voice

[2:09:57] inside of your head. And so the process

[2:10:02] the older you get the harder it becomes.

[2:10:05] But if you're 19, 20, 21 years old, and

[2:10:07] I've helped a lot of people find it,

[2:10:10] it's not so difficult because you're

[2:10:12] still close enough to your childhood.

[2:10:14] And when you were a child, you felt that

[2:10:17] voice very naturally. I love sports. I

[2:10:20] love mathematics. I'm attracted to

[2:10:22] music. I'm attracted to the social and

[2:10:25] other people. I'm attracted to words and

[2:10:27] language, patterns, etc. You knew it as

[2:10:31] a child. You felt it deeply, but then

[2:10:34] you've forgotten it. And you don't you

[2:10:36] forgot it so deeply that you don't even

[2:10:37] have any concept of this anymore. I'm

[2:10:40] returning you through a process. It's

[2:10:43] almost like a kind of therapy to who you

[2:10:45] were as a child to those things that

[2:10:49] excited you so deeply

[2:10:51] you can't even find words for them.

[2:10:53] Right. And I don't know if we talked

[2:10:56] about yourself, we could we could

[2:10:58] perhaps clarify that why those moments

[2:11:01] in podcasting kind of feel that way.

[2:11:04] There was something about you, the

[2:11:06] Andre, when you were 3 or four years old

[2:11:09] that is still alive within you in those

[2:11:11] moments.

[2:11:12] >> Mhm.

[2:11:12] >> You have a child inside of you that's

[2:11:14] still alive that's screaming for

[2:11:16] attention, but you can't hear it

[2:11:18] anymore. It's who you were and who you

[2:11:20] are. So, we have to go through a process

[2:11:22] of digging. We have to cut away all the

[2:11:24] things that you hate. I hated working

[2:11:27] for other people. I couldn't stand

[2:11:30] office politics. I couldn't stand all

[2:11:33] the egos and all the gameplay. It drove

[2:11:35] me crazy. In fact, it inspired the 48

[2:11:38] laws of power. I hated it so much.

[2:11:41] >> Right? So, that to me was a signal that

[2:11:44] I can't work for other people.

[2:11:47] It makes it a little hard in life, but

[2:11:48] it means I have I finally found my way

[2:11:50] to the one thing I can do where I don't

[2:11:52] have to work for other people. What is

[2:11:54] it you hate? We go through this process

[2:11:57] pruning away all the other little voices

[2:11:59] going on inside of your head from your

[2:12:01] mother, your father, your friends

[2:12:02] telling you who you are. You cut that

[2:12:04] out slowly and maybe you can find your

[2:12:06] way back to that real voice that says

[2:12:10] this is who I am. It feels right. When

[2:12:14] you've discovered something feels right

[2:12:15] and something opens up inside of you,

[2:12:18] it's not going to be a specific thing.

[2:12:19] It's not like I was meant to be a

[2:12:22] chemical engineer. No, it's it's more

[2:12:24] general.

[2:12:25] >> Yeah.

[2:12:25] >> I have a love of science. I have a love

[2:12:28] of research and discovering things. I

[2:12:31] have a love of words. I have a love of

[2:12:32] physical movement and motion. It's

[2:12:35] general. But once you capture that

[2:12:37] general thing that attracts you, then we

[2:12:39] can start figuring out getting a little

[2:12:42] bit more specific and tailoring where

[2:12:44] you go in life to to suiting that

[2:12:47] because a lot of it has to do

[2:12:50] in mastery with your career path in the

[2:12:53] day. It's not so gener related to your

[2:12:56] career path. It's more of sense of

[2:12:57] fulfillment.

[2:12:59] But your career path is very important.

[2:13:01] And it's a very important part of your

[2:13:02] life and figuring out a direction you

[2:13:05] can head into that feels like you're you

[2:13:09] like you podcasting. I don't know what

[2:13:11] you were doing before but you were

[2:13:12] probably in some career that didn't feel

[2:13:14] right. Is that correct?

[2:13:16] >> Yeah. Uh not fully right but right in a

[2:13:19] in a context that's helpful to this

[2:13:21] right. you know, it was it was more in

[2:13:23] film making uh and and videography and

[2:13:25] photography, which I still love, but

[2:13:27] isn't like my absolute, but it it's it's

[2:13:29] made its way into helping this, you

[2:13:31] know, and and things that we do now. So,

[2:13:34] yeah, not fully aligned, but but

[2:13:37] integrated sort of

[2:13:39] >> Yeah. Um and I find it really

[2:13:41] fascinating because we so we just

[2:13:43] started doing these inerson retreats and

[2:13:45] on the third day it's about contribution

[2:13:47] and we do a value clarification process

[2:13:50] and I found it really interesting that

[2:13:52] you mentioned um what really was one of

[2:13:55] the bigger things that ignited the 48

[2:13:58] laws of power was the things that you

[2:14:00] didn't like the things that um that that

[2:14:03] also clarifies your direction as much as

[2:14:06] the things that you value as the things

[2:14:07] you don't Right.

[2:14:09] >> Um, so I found that really insightful as

[2:14:11] well to like examine that and look at

[2:14:13] that um because it helped push you down

[2:14:18] and and follow and listen to the path

[2:14:19] that that is in alignment.

[2:14:21] >> Yeah. And um the people that you're

[2:14:24] attracted to and the people you're not

[2:14:26] attracted to, the the spirits of of a

[2:14:30] place that you feel aligned with and the

[2:14:32] spirits of the place that kind of I

[2:14:34] can't stand being in this just

[2:14:35] physically. Trust your intuitions. Trust

[2:14:38] that feeling of ew. Trust that thing

[2:14:41] that's hard to even put in words or I

[2:14:43] don't like this. This isn't this isn't

[2:14:45] me. Now, it doesn't have to you can't

[2:14:48] have everything glorious and wonderful

[2:14:50] and easy in life. They're going to be

[2:14:51] jobs where you have to do things that

[2:14:53] you don't like. I don't want to make

[2:14:55] give you the wrong impression. But in an

[2:14:57] overall sense, if you're in a career

[2:14:59] path where it's like, oh, this doesn't

[2:15:01] fit me. I'm uncomfortable. I'm

[2:15:04] frustrated.

[2:15:06] I'm telling you to listen to that voice

[2:15:08] very deeply and take it very seriously

[2:15:10] because it's t it's talking to you.

[2:15:13] >> You tell the story of Ingred Bergman.

[2:15:15] >> Yeah.

[2:15:16] >> And um I'm I'm curious for you to share

[2:15:18] a little bit about that and what happens

[2:15:20] when you don't listen to that voice as

[2:15:22] it turns from a demon to a demon.

[2:15:24] >> Yeah.

[2:15:25] >> And uh um yeah, I would love to hear.

[2:15:29] >> Well, she's a a remarkable story. Um a

[2:15:33] lot of people may not have heard of her.

[2:15:34] She was a fantastic actress, probably

[2:15:36] one of the greatest actresses ever. She

[2:15:38] had this ability to to to feel so

[2:15:41] natural, you felt like she wasn't

[2:15:42] acting. And the story of her life is her

[2:15:46] mother dies when she's very young and

[2:15:48] her father owns a photography shop. And

[2:15:50] she's drawn to wearing costumes and

[2:15:53] being photographed and she comes alive

[2:15:55] and playing these different parts. Part

[2:15:58] of it was feeling like she could be

[2:16:00] another person because she lost her

[2:16:02] mother and she was sort of a lost

[2:16:04] person.

[2:16:05] She sees a movie and she goes, "Oh my

[2:16:08] god, these characters on the screen.

[2:16:10] This is enchantment. How you can be

[2:16:12] inside a character that's invented

[2:16:15] that's on this like silent film was

[2:16:19] silent back in those days. She's

[2:16:20] enchanted. She goes to a play with her

[2:16:23] father and she screams in intermission,

[2:16:25] "That's what I'm going to do, papa. I'm

[2:16:27] going to become an actress because she's

[2:16:29] so enchanted with the physicality of of

[2:16:32] a stage like almost a dollhouse and

[2:16:34] people playing these different roles,

[2:16:37] right? So, she knows early on this is

[2:16:39] where she's headed. She goes to acting

[2:16:42] school and it feels wonderful. She's

[2:16:44] alive. She gets into her first film. She

[2:16:46] goes, "This is even better because it's

[2:16:48] related to my father and photography."

[2:16:50] Her father dies when she's young and

[2:16:52] she's always been in love with her

[2:16:54] father. So, I'm going to do film. She

[2:16:57] gets into She becomes like Sweden's

[2:16:59] greatest actress, even greater than

[2:17:01] Greta Garbo. She's just so famous

[2:17:03] because she's beautiful. She's natural.

[2:17:06] Hollywood comes calling. She goes to

[2:17:08] Hollywood. They want to make her over.

[2:17:11] They want to make her face more

[2:17:13] glamorous. They want to cut her hair.

[2:17:14] They want to fix her mouth. They want to

[2:17:17] do all these things. They want to change

[2:17:18] her name. She says, "No, I'm none of

[2:17:21] that. I'm going back to Sweden. you

[2:17:22] either take me as I am or I'm not going

[2:17:25] to be here. In other words, she hears

[2:17:26] this voice that keeps telling her what

[2:17:28] she wants, where she's going. She's very

[2:17:30] adamant at it. She gets into the

[2:17:33] Hollywood mill and she becomes very she

[2:17:35] becomes the most successful actress in

[2:17:37] in the Hollywood system. She's adored.

[2:17:40] She has a perfect marriage. Everyone

[2:17:42] thinks she's wonderful, but she's

[2:17:44] incredibly uncomfortable because she's

[2:17:47] playing this role of this saintly woman.

[2:17:50] She doesn't feel that her marriage is

[2:17:51] unhappy. She's having affairs and

[2:17:54] they're typ casting her and it just

[2:17:56] feels wrong.

[2:17:58] She leaves Hollywood. She falls in love

[2:18:00] with this Italian director Roselini. She

[2:18:03] has an affair with him. He's married.

[2:18:04] She's married. She's this disgraceful

[2:18:07] figure now. She went from being a saint

[2:18:09] to being this that is like banned.

[2:18:12] People won't look at her films anymore.

[2:18:15] But through Roselini she discovers that

[2:18:18] she wants a different kind of film

[2:18:19] making that it was like when she was a

[2:18:21] child that she can explore these parts

[2:18:24] that are incredibly natural that are

[2:18:25] lifelike and she goes in a completely

[2:18:28] new direction and it opens up a new

[2:18:30] chapter in her life. But the point is

[2:18:34] this power inside of her was so strong

[2:18:37] that whenever she took a wrong turn the

[2:18:40] voice would say get the hell out. She

[2:18:43] was going to tell David Oselnik, the

[2:18:47] great producer, "I'm not going to be in

[2:18:49] Hollywood. If you want to make me over,

[2:18:51] screw it. I'm going back to Sweden." For

[2:18:53] an actress, that was an act of

[2:18:56] incredible strength because you did.

[2:18:57] Actresses were like pawns. She listened

[2:19:00] to it and she rebelled when people tried

[2:19:02] to make her into something she wasn't.

[2:19:04] And it made her an incredibly fulfilled

[2:19:07] career with all different chapters in

[2:19:09] her life because she was constantly

[2:19:12] attuned to that voice inside of her.

[2:19:16] >> Now that voice inside of us has

[2:19:18] different flavors for us all. I love I

[2:19:21] got introduced through Howard to Howard

[2:19:23] Gardner's work through you.

[2:19:25] >> Yeah. Oh, really?

[2:19:26] >> Yeah. And I'm curious what uh if you

[2:19:28] were to give a bird's eye view of of

[2:19:30] those different to forms of intelligence

[2:19:32] as and why it's important.

[2:19:34] >> The the it's not so much the different

[2:19:36] forms of intelligence that are

[2:19:37] important. It's the fact that there are

[2:19:39] different forms of intelligence. So we

[2:19:42] think of intelligence as just this kind

[2:19:44] of intellectual capacity. But what

[2:19:46] Howard Gardner shows is that there are

[2:19:49] other forms of intelligence.

[2:19:51] So there's kinetic intelligence which

[2:19:55] has to do with movement in sports in

[2:19:57] dance. So a great basketball player or

[2:20:01] ballerina dancer has an intelligence

[2:20:04] that's not intellectual

[2:20:06] but is part of her body and it's

[2:20:08] intelligence just as good as as Hegel or

[2:20:12] Nietze or any philosopher right it's

[2:20:14] form of intelligence music is a form of

[2:20:18] intelligence and music is all about

[2:20:20] patterns right patterns of notes and

[2:20:24] it's related to math and certain brains

[2:20:27] are attracted to those kinds of patterns

[2:20:29] and sounds for themselves and that's

[2:20:32] what like a Mozart was like or a John

[2:20:34] Cold Train. There are words like it was

[2:20:36] for me. There's the social element like

[2:20:40] you you love being around people. You're

[2:20:41] very good with people and you want to

[2:20:44] it's almost like it's could be a great

[2:20:46] career path for you. There's

[2:20:48] engineering. There's making things.

[2:20:50] That's knowing the shapes of things and

[2:20:52] having mechanical intelligence.

[2:20:55] Something I realized very young age that

[2:20:56] I was terrible at. Right. So the main

[2:21:00] thing is each person has a kind of a

[2:21:04] grain to their brain that draws them to

[2:21:07] this particular form of intelligence.

[2:21:09] Now you can have a combination of them

[2:21:12] like a Leonardo da Vinci or something.

[2:21:14] There's also visual intelligence. I left

[2:21:16] that out. Um yes, but generally there is

[2:21:20] one frame that fits you and that is you

[2:21:25] and that if you if you know that that

[2:21:28] this is your form of intelligence, you

[2:21:30] will make the right choices in life. So

[2:21:34] parents will often think

[2:21:37] my kid is into dance and sports. I want

[2:21:40] them to get into math. I want them to be

[2:21:42] able to go to college and go become a

[2:21:44] doctor. And that this is just a

[2:21:45] frivolous thing, dance and sports. And

[2:21:48] so they deviate their child from that

[2:21:50] path. The child hears their parents.

[2:21:53] They l they go through medical school.

[2:21:56] It doesn't feel good. They're not

[2:21:58] doesn't feel comfortable. They know that

[2:22:00] they were attracted to physical things.

[2:22:02] And if they don't return to that,

[2:22:04] they're going to be a miserable person

[2:22:06] for their whole life. And so often your

[2:22:09] parents and your teachers deviate you

[2:22:11] from what you are naturally gifted at.

[2:22:14] You may not be gifted at math at all and

[2:22:16] yet they force you to learn math and you

[2:22:19] hate it and it turns you off from

[2:22:20] learning in general. So if you are tuned

[2:22:23] yourself to what that is for me it was

[2:22:26] words I what would it have been for you

[2:22:29] in that those frames?

[2:22:30] >> The the pattern and music one is was

[2:22:33] something I can track back is like

[2:22:34] always kind of I always love math and

[2:22:37] music from an early age.

[2:22:40] >> Um I would say probably that one.

[2:22:43] Uh-huh.

[2:22:43] >> Um

[2:22:46] cuz yeah, kinesesthetic, linguistic,

[2:22:50] the musical,

[2:22:52] uh mathematical one. What else is there?

[2:22:55] The sociological

[2:22:56] one or people one.

[2:22:57] >> Yeah. And and visual. I don't know if

[2:23:00] that was also related to the mechanical

[2:23:02] one. I can't remember.

[2:23:04] >> Yeah, probably that one. Maybe. Maybe

[2:23:06] the people one a little bit. I don't

[2:23:07] know.

[2:23:08] >> Uhhuh.

[2:23:09] >> Okay.

[2:23:10] >> Yeah. So um the main idea is that

[2:23:14] intelligence is not just intellectual.

[2:23:16] It's not just

[2:23:18] words and and being able to descrial

[2:23:21] analyze things and critique things.

[2:23:24] Being a being good at physical things is

[2:23:26] just as valuable as being good at

[2:23:28] intellectual things. And we and we

[2:23:30] should acknowledge that in our culture.

[2:23:32] >> Yeah. You give this context of how the

[2:23:34] demon is ruthless and will punish you

[2:23:36] for straying. Um and you describe a kind

[2:23:41] of person who reaches their damon but

[2:23:43] subtracts the love from it and it

[2:23:45] becomes service to self and all.

[2:23:48] >> Yeah. Um so talk to me a little bit of

[2:23:50] of that and maybe any examples come to

[2:23:53] life where somebody be can become

[2:23:55] incredibly developed following their

[2:23:57] Damon but it turns against them.

[2:24:01] Well, um the the part of Aeros injecting

[2:24:06] the demons seemed very interesting to me

[2:24:09] and very telling and it's that

[2:24:13] uh cuz the Greeks were were not so

[2:24:15] prudish as we are. They could see the

[2:24:17] sexual component in intelligence is

[2:24:21] sexual energy permeated everything.

[2:24:24] >> Aeros Yeah.

[2:24:24] >> Yeah. And so Aeros is the god of love.

[2:24:27] And so the idea that you have this

[2:24:30] special spirit inside of you is infused

[2:24:33] with that drop of love. And so it means

[2:24:37] that there's there's a kind of

[2:24:39] excitement that is a kind of love of

[2:24:42] what you're doing and a love and with

[2:24:45] that love comes this sort of compassion

[2:24:47] and empathy that is natural with with

[2:24:50] the love emotion, right? this kind of

[2:24:52] attraction to things

[2:24:54] >> but also this this empathy and people

[2:24:59] who hear that voice but subtract the

[2:25:02] love they become very powerful they

[2:25:05] become extremely good at something but

[2:25:07] they have no there's no love attached to

[2:25:09] it there's no kind of energy that's

[2:25:12] beyond just getting power and success

[2:25:16] I mean a classic example would be a

[2:25:18] Joseph Stalin for instance who I studied

[2:25:22] very deeply because I'm kind of

[2:25:23] intrigued by these kind of demonic

[2:25:25] figures. He was actually a very

[2:25:28] interesting child who was interested in

[2:25:30] poetry and literature but he also had a

[2:25:33] very troubled childhood and he was

[2:25:36] mistreated and so his energy became I

[2:25:39] have to get power I have to get power

[2:25:41] over people and that became the dominant

[2:25:43] force in his life and he became so good

[2:25:46] at it because he was such an observer of

[2:25:48] humanity and seeing people's weaknesses

[2:25:51] that he knew how to exploit people to a

[2:25:54] very high degree. He became brilliant at

[2:25:56] that psychological game. But there was

[2:25:59] absolutely no love, no compassion, no

[2:26:01] empathy involved.

[2:26:03] If you've ever encountered a narcissist,

[2:26:06] and in my book on human nature, I have a

[2:26:08] whole chapter on narcissism cuz it

[2:26:10] fascinates me because we've all had to

[2:26:12] deal with them and I've had to deal with

[2:26:14] them, right? They're like these weird

[2:26:16] creatures. And if you look at

[2:26:18] narcissists,

[2:26:20] they give the impression of listening to

[2:26:22] you. They give the impression that

[2:26:24] they're interested in you, right? Which

[2:26:27] is strange because you think, well, that

[2:26:28] that's not a narcissistic quality, but

[2:26:31] they're looking they're interested in

[2:26:32] you. So, how they can use you, you

[2:26:35] become an object for them, an extension

[2:26:37] of their own willpower. And so, they're

[2:26:39] listening to you without any life. And I

[2:26:42] tell people, look at their eyes as

[2:26:44] they're listening to you. Their eyes

[2:26:46] will be kind of dead. They're not

[2:26:48] registering your story as something

[2:26:50] subjective that they can get inside.

[2:26:53] They're seeing you as this animal that

[2:26:55] they can torture or use, this object

[2:26:57] that they can play with. It's in their

[2:26:59] eyes. Their eyes are dead. So, these

[2:27:02] narcissists

[2:27:03] can be very powerful. They're very good

[2:27:05] at observing people, but it's subtracted

[2:27:08] with all that love energy, the arrows,

[2:27:10] and so they become truly demonic, and

[2:27:13] they get power, and they're successful.

[2:27:15] And Elon Musk is a raging narcissist. We

[2:27:20] know that. And if you read the books

[2:27:22] about him, it's very clear. He's someone

[2:27:24] who's gained all this power and success.

[2:27:27] He's very good at at marketing and at in

[2:27:32] inventing things, but there's absolutely

[2:27:34] no love. There's no compassion. There's

[2:27:36] no empathy in it. It's a deadness. It's

[2:27:38] a complete deadness to it. That's the

[2:27:40] demonic.

[2:27:41] >> H

[2:27:43] this,

[2:27:44] as you likely intended, flows into the

[2:27:47] aesthetic sublime. You say that

[2:27:51] if our environment becomes too

[2:27:53] predictable, our senses atrophy and with

[2:27:55] them our thinking and creativity.

[2:27:58] Um,

[2:28:00] and you you talk about how art has

[2:28:05] become a part of that predictability.

[2:28:06] What's it costing us to swap out deep

[2:28:09] art for whatever the algorithm serves

[2:28:11] up?

[2:28:12] >> Well, um, what I'm the the title of that

[2:28:16] chapter is disorder the senses. And so

[2:28:19] the idea is

[2:28:22] that when your senses are alive, when

[2:28:25] you're connected to things, when you're

[2:28:27] actually like they're awakened,

[2:28:31] you become creative and the world looks

[2:28:33] a lot differently. And I say that if you

[2:28:37] suddenly were dropped into an an island

[2:28:40] by yourself and your survival now was

[2:28:44] very precarious, your senses would

[2:28:47] suddenly spark to life cuz you're a

[2:28:48] human being. You'd be aware of

[2:28:50] everything. You'd be hearing sounds.

[2:28:52] You'd be figuring out where you could

[2:28:53] get food. You'd become inventive and

[2:28:56] creative because your senses. So your

[2:28:59] senses play a huge role in your in your

[2:29:02] intelligence and your imagination. When

[2:29:04] your senses are closed, when you're not

[2:29:07] paying attention, when you're not

[2:29:08] listening and seeing things, your mind

[2:29:10] and your thoughts become circular and

[2:29:13] framed. Okay?

[2:29:15] So the role of of culture is to I of

[2:29:21] sublime art, I'm not saying all art is

[2:29:23] to kind of shake up your senses so that

[2:29:26] you can see things in different ways and

[2:29:28] get you outside of that kind of circle

[2:29:31] that you're that you're confined in. And

[2:29:33] so

[2:29:35] when our culture is so algorithmic,

[2:29:38] when we are so kind of mesmerized by it

[2:29:41] and it's kind of standardizes our

[2:29:44] experience, our senses kind of go flat.

[2:29:49] It's like um it's like sparkling water

[2:29:51] that's lost all its sparkle. It's

[2:29:53] completely flat, right? And so when our

[2:29:57] senses go flat, our thoughts go flat. We

[2:30:00] think it's the other way around. We

[2:30:01] think thoughts just are we're either

[2:30:03] intelligent or not. But our thoughts

[2:30:05] depend on our senses, how we experience

[2:30:08] the world and how it relates to our

[2:30:10] imagination. And so the danger is is

[2:30:14] that when you become trapped in the kind

[2:30:17] of algorithmic culture, it creates this

[2:30:21] kind of familiarity and comfort that for

[2:30:24] you feels good because it's like a drug

[2:30:26] that keeps you asleep. Everything is

[2:30:29] familiar. It follows the conventional

[2:30:31] patterns. It's fil Yeah, it's filled

[2:30:33] with weird imagery and films, etc., but

[2:30:35] it's still extremely conventional. It

[2:30:38] has the same kind of story lines that

[2:30:41] have, you know, have evolved that are

[2:30:43] entertainment, quote unquote, and it's

[2:30:46] putting you to sleep, right? So if you

[2:30:50] watch something or or or encountered

[2:30:52] something from a different culture from

[2:30:54] a different time period, you're suddenly

[2:30:56] encountering a different way of

[2:30:58] thinking, a different way of telling a

[2:31:00] story, a different structure. So the

[2:31:04] imagery might be all exciting and

[2:31:06] fantastic and Marvel and all these other

[2:31:08] things, but the structure is always the

[2:31:10] same. It's conventional. It's cliche.

[2:31:13] When you see things with a different

[2:31:14] structure, it shakes you up and it puts

[2:31:17] you in a different frame of mind. It

[2:31:19] opens your senses, it opens your

[2:31:21] imagination.

[2:31:23] And I give examples in in in the book of

[2:31:26] artists who do that. A lot of them are,

[2:31:29] I'm afraid, are from different eras, but

[2:31:32] there are contemporary artists who do

[2:31:34] that. And I mentioned James Terrell, an

[2:31:37] amazing amazing visual art, American

[2:31:40] visual artist who creates land art who

[2:31:42] puts you in these spaces where you

[2:31:45] become aware of the sky as simply sky as

[2:31:49] simply a phenomenon without that word

[2:31:51] sky and the cosmos and the universe and

[2:31:54] how small you are. And his land art is

[2:31:57] absolutely mesmerizing and is it is

[2:31:59] fantastic. It is utterly sublime. And

[2:32:02] you don't once you experience one of his

[2:32:05] land arts and you can find them in

[2:32:07] different parts of the world. There's

[2:32:08] one that will be opening in Arizona that

[2:32:11] is not opened yet. It's supposedly

[2:32:13] fantastic. Once you see the sky through

[2:32:16] how he's given it to you, you will never

[2:32:19] look at it again the same way. So I have

[2:32:21] examples of other artists who break up

[2:32:24] the structure and make your senses

[2:32:28] uh experience something differently

[2:32:30] which then has that effect on your mind

[2:32:32] and on your imagination.

[2:32:35] >> You you uh made a playlist, didn't you?

[2:32:38] >> I did.

[2:32:39] >> Did you listen to any of it?

[2:32:40] >> I didn't because I don't think it was I

[2:32:42] didn't see it in the in the PDF, but it

[2:32:45] Oh,

[2:32:45] >> it's in here.

[2:32:46] >> Oh. Oh.

[2:32:47] >> Um

[2:32:48] >> Yeah. So you how did you select the the

[2:32:50] music?

[2:32:51] >> Well, the the playlist is um so

[2:32:57] part of the problem with my book I told

[2:32:59] you is I couldn't take a walk. I

[2:33:01] couldn't hike. So music played a very

[2:33:03] important part in keeping me excited.

[2:33:06] >> Yeah.

[2:33:06] >> And so when I was writing the cosmic

[2:33:08] sublime, I listened to cosmic music.

[2:33:11] Alice Col Train, the wife of John Col

[2:33:13] Train, did a a an album on on cosmic co

[2:33:19] universal consciousness based on things

[2:33:21] that John Cold Train was doing. Charles

[2:33:23] Ives wrote a symphony called the cosmic

[2:33:25] symphony which is really really weird. I

[2:33:28] listen to things like the kind of

[2:33:30] reproduced the sounds of outer space.

[2:33:33] Pagan chapter I listen to recreations of

[2:33:36] ancient Greek music which put me in the

[2:33:39] mood. So the playlist has things from

[2:33:42] the different chapters, but for the

[2:33:44] chapter on the uh on the aesthetic

[2:33:47] sublime,

[2:33:48] I tell the story of one of my favorite

[2:33:52] composers, and it's an acquired taste

[2:33:55] called Alexander Scriyabin, who was a

[2:33:58] great Russian mystic. He had a mystic

[2:34:01] connection to music. He wanted to return

[2:34:03] to the Elucinian mysteries. He wanted to

[2:34:06] create a kind of music that would

[2:34:08] explode your consciousness and make you

[2:34:10] aware like Aldos Huxley of the world at

[2:34:13] large. His last symphony which he died

[2:34:16] before he could create was called the

[2:34:17] mysterium which would take place in

[2:34:19] India and would be an immersive

[2:34:21] experience with a roof opening and

[2:34:24] incense and lights and colors. He was a

[2:34:26] senthesiac who was trying to create

[2:34:29] sesthesic art. So a lot of the music is

[2:34:33] from scriyabin.

[2:34:35] I also have music from other modern

[2:34:37] composers who were trying to kind of

[2:34:39] mess with your sense of cuz music has

[2:34:43] become very formulaic.

[2:34:45] Right? It has a pattern that we're not

[2:34:48] even aware of which is a certain kind of

[2:34:52] sense of rhythm and then dissonance

[2:34:55] that's resolved into consonants

[2:34:57] constantly. So if you listen to music,

[2:34:59] there'll be moments that seem a little

[2:35:00] discordant and then they're resolved and

[2:35:02] that sense of resolution keeps you

[2:35:04] excited, keeps you listening to the

[2:35:06] music. What I'm having here is music

[2:35:09] that doesn't do that, that disturbs your

[2:35:11] sense of flow that that creates a

[2:35:14] different feeling because music is very

[2:35:15] emotional, right? that disturbs that

[2:35:18] that kind of familiarity that you have

[2:35:20] gone and creates a much different mood

[2:35:23] because Griabin his the whole point of

[2:35:25] his music was to create ecstasy. He

[2:35:28] wanted to say how can I create ecstasy

[2:35:30] in music and so that was his whole goal

[2:35:34] >> and so the playlist is music I also

[2:35:38] include things like Bach because he was

[2:35:40] a sublime composer who tried to mess

[2:35:42] with your mind. He tried to create

[2:35:45] voices and patterns that were like I

[2:35:49] can't even explain. They're like moving

[2:35:51] from right to left counterpoint that's

[2:35:53] very intense, very complex like math and

[2:35:56] that has a feeling of infinity like a

[2:35:59] pattern that could go on forever is very

[2:36:01] sublime. So artists that kind of mess

[2:36:05] with how you normally relate to music

[2:36:08] and how you want these familiar patterns

[2:36:11] are what I've used in that playlist. M

[2:36:13] amazing. We we'll link it down below if

[2:36:15] that's okay with you.

[2:36:16] >> Sure. Sure.

[2:36:17] >> Great. Okay. So, how would you introduce

[2:36:20] the next one?

[2:36:22] Well, we're talking about a lot of

[2:36:24] things that are sublime about the world,

[2:36:27] about animals, the cosmos,

[2:36:30] about falling in love with other person.

[2:36:33] But in this chapter, the the dynamical

[2:36:35] sublime, I'm trying to say what is

[2:36:37] sublime about the human animal in

[2:36:40] general.

[2:36:42] And I talk about how we evolved

[2:36:46] in perhaps the most chaotic climactic

[2:36:49] moment in the history of planet Earth.

[2:36:52] The I the ice age that began about

[2:36:54] 800,000 years ago. We weren't homo

[2:36:57] sapiens yet, but it's we were formed in

[2:37:00] that period. And all of the forests that

[2:37:03] we grew up that we emerged from where we

[2:37:05] were in trees and we were protected

[2:37:08] disappeared and it became open grassland

[2:37:10] because as the temperatures cooled there

[2:37:13] was much less rainfall. Okay. So

[2:37:15] everything changed on planet Earth and

[2:37:18] suddenly we found ourselves in these

[2:37:20] open grasslands, these exposed bipedal

[2:37:22] creatures, rather weak and there were

[2:37:24] leopards everywhere and there were very

[2:37:27] dangerous animals and we were extremely

[2:37:30] exposed and we had to adapt and that

[2:37:33] pressure of that violent uh uh

[2:37:37] environment we were now in made us very

[2:37:40] creative. We had to become social. We

[2:37:42] had to form very tight-knit bands that

[2:37:44] could communicate with one another could

[2:37:47] that could hunt large game. To hunt

[2:37:49] large game was a very gutsy proposal

[2:37:53] because it was very dangerous. You had

[2:37:55] to have a band of 12 hunters, whatever,

[2:37:58] all commuting. You had to track the

[2:37:59] animal. You had to be very patient and

[2:38:02] you had to kill it and then and and then

[2:38:04] you had all this food in these pelts,

[2:38:06] etc. And so the pressures of this

[2:38:09] environment

[2:38:11] made us incredibly inventive and

[2:38:13] creative, right? And soon our population

[2:38:16] expanded and we had to move to all

[2:38:18] different parts of planet Earth because

[2:38:21] it was getting too crowded in our areas

[2:38:23] for food sources. We expanded into Asia

[2:38:25] and throughout Europe and all these

[2:38:28] different climates that were much

[2:38:30] colder. We adapted. We found different

[2:38:32] ways of hunting other animals. We

[2:38:35] started creating tools. So we could hunt

[2:38:37] on a high level. Okay. And in that

[2:38:40] crucifix of

[2:38:42] 8 750,000 years, whatever number you

[2:38:45] want to put on it,

[2:38:47] a huge percentage of mammals went

[2:38:49] extinct because they could not adapt

[2:38:52] because it was so dangerous and so

[2:38:55] unfamiliar.

[2:38:56] We emerged as homo sapiens right in that

[2:39:00] period maybe 80,000 years ago. I don't

[2:39:03] know who we exactly date the origin of

[2:39:05] homo sapiens. Um but we emerged out of

[2:39:08] that period. So who we are as an animal

[2:39:12] is a creature that is incredibly

[2:39:15] adaptive right and that is incredibly

[2:39:18] persistent even violent to an extent

[2:39:21] where we don't accept a particular set

[2:39:24] of circumstances. We try to mold them to

[2:39:27] our will. We're very willful. We're very

[2:39:30] persistent and we get to where we want.

[2:39:33] And that power is what um intensified

[2:39:38] our intelligence. It's what skyrocketed

[2:39:40] the evolving of our brain. This ability

[2:39:43] to solve all these different problems.

[2:39:46] So that's who we are. This adaptive,

[2:39:49] very creative, inventive animal that

[2:39:52] depends on pressure, adversity,

[2:39:56] challenges, obstacles, and the presence

[2:39:58] of death. Okay. Now, you go, you fast

[2:40:03] forward to the year 2026

[2:40:06] and I try and say we're part of this

[2:40:09] immense social experiment to change

[2:40:13] human nature, to change the human

[2:40:15] animal.

[2:40:17] Everything is about speed, ease,

[2:40:20] convenience, and comfort. Right?

[2:40:23] We don't want to have any adversity in

[2:40:25] our life. We don't want to have any

[2:40:26] suffering. We don't see the value of

[2:40:28] have any kind of pain. If you have the

[2:40:30] slightest psychological pain, here's a

[2:40:33] drug to treat you. If you have any

[2:40:35] ailments, here's a drug to treat you. We

[2:40:38] don't want to see anybody dying, so we

[2:40:40] march them off into hospitals. We don't

[2:40:42] want to see our animals being killed, so

[2:40:45] we have factory farms. We um we want to

[2:40:48] have an app or something that will solve

[2:40:51] everything for us. If we want to have

[2:40:54] transcendent experiences, here's

[2:40:56] ketamine. You can have it instantly. You

[2:40:58] don't have to meditate for 20 years. You

[2:41:00] can have this. You can have that

[2:41:01] experience right now at a drop of a

[2:41:03] drug. Right? So, and then of course here

[2:41:07] comes AI. You don't have to study

[2:41:08] anything. You don't have to learn how to

[2:41:10] write. Let it write for you. Okay? So,

[2:41:13] we're creating a new kind of human being

[2:41:17] that is not who we were. Okay. All

[2:41:20] right. Maybe it'll succeed. I don't know

[2:41:22] where it will go but a back of my mind

[2:41:25] it will go someplace dangerous and dark

[2:41:28] that if we have too much ease and

[2:41:30] convenience

[2:41:32] our minds kind of rot

[2:41:35] right we don't have to think very deeply

[2:41:37] about anything so why think very deeply

[2:41:39] about anything we don't have to study

[2:41:41] anything very deeply so why study

[2:41:44] anything every deep deeply we don't have

[2:41:46] to learn how to write we don't have to

[2:41:47] go through the seven years of writing a

[2:41:50] book, you know, Claude could write us a

[2:41:53] book in in in a couple of months. Okay?

[2:41:56] So, all that speed and convenience, it's

[2:41:58] also

[2:42:00] wilting our our willpower, our ability

[2:42:02] to persist and to push past moments of

[2:42:05] tedium.

[2:42:07] What are we going to become? We need we

[2:42:09] need to be incredibly inventive. We're

[2:42:11] facing the extinction of our species

[2:42:14] from from climate change. We have to

[2:42:16] become extremely inventive. We have to

[2:42:19] create new cultural forms. We have to

[2:42:21] constantly reinvent ourselves. That's

[2:42:23] what the human animal is. But if we no

[2:42:26] longer have that kind of intelligence,

[2:42:28] that kind of patience, that kind of

[2:42:30] adaptability, that resilience, how are

[2:42:32] we going to function? And so the

[2:42:34] dynamical sublime is returning to that

[2:42:38] animal that we used to be. And what it

[2:42:40] means is suffering, pain, adversity,

[2:42:44] challenge is what you need. You need to

[2:42:47] go towards it. You need to embrace it.

[2:42:50] You need to feel like the suffering and

[2:42:52] the pain in your life is teaching you

[2:42:54] something. It's teaching you patience.

[2:42:56] It's teaching you resilience. It's

[2:42:58] making you have a little bit of

[2:42:59] toughness in life to deal with the

[2:43:01] hardships. It's making you learn things

[2:43:04] and not go for all this ease. And so

[2:43:08] that is the dynamical sublime. It's

[2:43:10] returning to who we used to be and not

[2:43:14] it's almost like

[2:43:16] you have to learn how to resist our your

[2:43:18] own culture, right? You have to learn to

[2:43:21] to say these are things that are bad for

[2:43:24] me. You think that junk food is bad for

[2:43:26] you and it is but the culture is also

[2:43:30] rotting you out. Not not your nutrition,

[2:43:33] not your body, but your mind. You have

[2:43:35] to resist it and you have to say

[2:43:38] challenges and difficulty and doing

[2:43:40] things against the grain and being and

[2:43:43] and embracing obstacles is the way to

[2:43:46] become more human again,

[2:43:52] man. Yeah. I think we all can relate to

[2:43:55] the subtle but pervasive feeling of

[2:43:58] anxiety that comes alongside with just

[2:44:01] having all of your conveniences at your

[2:44:03] doorstep. And that when we don't seek

[2:44:06] out discomfort,

[2:44:08] it will find us. You know, when we seek

[2:44:10] out discomfort, comfort kind of comes to

[2:44:12] us because it's the way we evolve to be.

[2:44:14] And then when we seek out perpetual

[2:44:16] comfort, discomfort becomes the way in

[2:44:18] which we live internally, how how we

[2:44:21] feel. And so you speak about this time

[2:44:23] in our generation of being individuals

[2:44:25] who are untested and um soft, you know,

[2:44:30] and um what are some practical examples

[2:44:33] of way to invite that challenge back in

[2:44:35] to the human animal in in today's day

[2:44:38] and age?

[2:44:39] >> Well, it's it's a simple philosophy that

[2:44:43] you have to adopt. Um it's a philosophy

[2:44:46] I've talked about in my other books.

[2:44:47] It's called amor fati which means love

[2:44:50] of fate. So

[2:44:53] life involves death and nobody wants to

[2:44:57] die. We all want to cling to life but

[2:45:00] it's it's reality that we all have to

[2:45:02] face right and so instead of avoiding

[2:45:06] death instead of avoiding the thought of

[2:45:08] death and we get to that in the next

[2:45:10] chapter you embrace the thought and you

[2:45:13] move towards it and you incorporate it

[2:45:14] into your life. The the idea is that

[2:45:17] pain and discomfort and inconvenience

[2:45:21] is something that you want that you want

[2:45:24] to bring into your life that you do not

[2:45:27] try to avoid. Right? And so that is the

[2:45:31] main thing. And so other things are

[2:45:34] learning the value of slowness. Okay? So

[2:45:39] you want everything fast and easy. I'm

[2:45:42] telling you,

[2:45:45] take up read a a novel. Your

[2:45:48] entertainment has to be so quick and

[2:45:50] easy. You have to get Netflix and get

[2:45:52] that new movie that's going to kind of

[2:45:55] entertain you. Turn off Netflix. Get rid

[2:45:58] of the subscription and read an 800page

[2:46:01] novel, War in Peace, or whatever it is.

[2:46:06] Damn it. You can't go fast with that.

[2:46:07] You have to go slow. You have to read

[2:46:09] page by page. You have to think about

[2:46:11] it. You have to return back. Go, who was

[2:46:13] that character? Your mind is developing

[2:46:16] slowly. Pick up a musical instrument.

[2:46:20] Instead of rushing for your music on on

[2:46:23] Spotify, start playing the piano. That

[2:46:26] will teach you to slow down. That'll

[2:46:28] teach you patience. That'll teach you

[2:46:30] humility. You suck at it in the

[2:46:32] beginning.

[2:46:33] >> Oh, yeah.

[2:46:33] >> But after 6 months, you don't suck so

[2:46:35] much. After a year, you're actually

[2:46:37] playing something that's kind of fun.

[2:46:39] take up chess, right? You can't go fast

[2:46:42] with chess. You can't suddenly speed up

[2:46:44] your moves and have AI show you what to

[2:46:46] do. It's difficult. You're going to

[2:46:48] suffer for a little while, but it'll be

[2:46:50] fun.

[2:46:50] >> Yeah.

[2:46:52] >> Take cooking. Take a meal that's going

[2:46:54] to take 3 hours to prepare. In Indian

[2:46:57] cooking, uh, somebody will spend like an

[2:47:00] entire day cooking one dish and all

[2:47:03] these ingredients. If you have one of

[2:47:05] those Indian dishes that are cooked like

[2:47:07] that slowly with all these different

[2:47:09] spices, it's an experience. Do something

[2:47:12] like that. Slow the down and try

[2:47:15] and get some in tedium into your life in

[2:47:18] a constructive way. That's one thing I

[2:47:21] would tell you to do.

[2:47:24] >> Those are all great and definitely uh

[2:47:27] piano and chess for me are in endlessly

[2:47:30] humbling and a great way to slow down.

[2:47:32] Yeah, I saw your beautiful chess board

[2:47:34] up.

[2:47:34] >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I love it. I love it.

[2:47:37] Um, and also I I personally feel the

[2:47:40] call for like a like a bigger physical

[2:47:43] challenge. So, my friends and I are

[2:47:44] talking about maybe doing a Kagwa, which

[2:47:47] I heard you write about.

[2:47:48] >> Oh. Oh.

[2:47:49] >> Uh, which would be a big commitment.

[2:47:51] >> Yeah. Well, um, yeah. Backpacking.

[2:47:54] >> Yeah. That that was a form of therapy

[2:47:56] for a patient who was very neurotic and

[2:47:59] very unhappy. The psychiatrist said,

[2:48:01] "Screw all this talking. We're not

[2:48:03] getting anywhere. I'm going to take you

[2:48:04] up Mount Ankanagua, the highest mountain

[2:48:07] in the southern hemisphere." And it was

[2:48:10] a cosmic experience that changed his

[2:48:12] life. Yeah. Go ahead and do it, man.

[2:48:14] [laughter]

[2:48:14] >> I wish I could join you, but I can't.

[2:48:16] >> Yeah.

[2:48:16] >> Oh, man. Is there a way that you're

[2:48:18] actively seeking that challenge out or

[2:48:20] do you feel like because of the stroke,

[2:48:21] do you do you meet that more? How how do

[2:48:24] you navigate that? Well, it's so

[2:48:25] frustrating for me, but I have a uh I

[2:48:28] have a recumbent bike

[2:48:30] >> cuz I used to mountain bike and I can't

[2:48:33] be on a bike cuz I have no balance.

[2:48:35] >> So, you know what a recumbent bike looks

[2:48:37] like?

[2:48:37] >> I don't.

[2:48:38] >> Um it's like three wheels. It's a

[2:48:40] tricycle and you sit and you pedal like

[2:48:43] this, right?

[2:48:44] >> Yeah.

[2:48:45] >> But I got the lightest weight one I

[2:48:47] could get. Um, and I go up into these

[2:48:50] hills, into these mountains, and I'm

[2:48:53] slow as hell. People are walking past

[2:48:56] me, you know, but it's beautiful and

[2:48:59] it's an incredible challenge. And I go

[2:49:01] up these hills and other cyclists are

[2:49:03] going, "Damn it, how the hell did you

[2:49:05] ever get up here?" Because they can't

[2:49:07] believe that cycling like this while

[2:49:09] you're sitting in a chair.

[2:49:11] >> So that's the challenge I do. And I'm

[2:49:13] looking for like new hills to to to

[2:49:15] climb. Yeah. So I that's the most I can

[2:49:17] do.

[2:49:18] >> It's been eight years and I I I wish I

[2:49:21] could hike. I'm so jealous.

[2:49:25] >> It's uh it's humbling. I can only

[2:49:27] imagine the the challenges that it's

[2:49:30] brought into your life and um also the

[2:49:32] opportunities for gratitude which

[2:49:34] otherwise we just completely forget

[2:49:37] about. Um you write that living in this

[2:49:40] culture you know where all forms of

[2:49:43] resistance are essentially removed

[2:49:46] um that we can all imagine that we are

[2:49:48] amazing and worthy of that we are

[2:49:51] amazing and worthy of agilation when in

[2:49:53] fact we are simply avoidant and

[2:49:54] untested.

[2:49:55] >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]

[2:49:56] Well if you if you do like do what I say

[2:49:59] like you you took up chess you would be

[2:50:02] humbled and you would realize god I am

[2:50:04] not amazing. I am not fantastic. I'm

[2:50:06] actually pretty dumb. I don't know. I

[2:50:08] can't. You know, there are people so

[2:50:10] much smarter than I am. When you

[2:50:12] actually take up something that's a

[2:50:14] challenge that tests you, you realize

[2:50:18] who you are. And by overcoming

[2:50:21] that obstacle by spending four years

[2:50:25] becoming a better chess player. Now you

[2:50:27] go, well, but actually I am pretty good

[2:50:29] because I earned it. I didn't say I was

[2:50:32] amazing. It's not like somebody on

[2:50:33] Instagram said I was amazing.

[2:50:36] I feel it inside. I overcame my own

[2:50:39] weaknesses. You know, I I told you I

[2:50:42] didn't think I'd ever get to the end of

[2:50:44] this book. When I got to the end, I was

[2:50:47] like, I I I can be very hard on myself,

[2:50:50] but I could go, God, never forget that

[2:50:52] you actually made it through, that you

[2:50:54] actually accomplished this, cuz it was

[2:50:56] the hardest thing I've ever tried to

[2:50:58] pull off in my life.

[2:50:59] >> Wow. Wow. That's a big statement. Yeah.

[2:51:01] I could only imagine just the writing of

[2:51:04] it. I mean, the research, let alone, you

[2:51:07] know, 300 books and

[2:51:10] it's um it's impressive and it's so

[2:51:12] inspiring. There's something I truly

[2:51:15] feel when someone's devoted their life

[2:51:18] and their energy for years or decades to

[2:51:21] pour themsel and all of themsel into a

[2:51:24] project that uh with, you know, if if

[2:51:28] you didn't, this would just not exist.

[2:51:30] this this collection of ideas and

[2:51:32] stories and and exercises that really

[2:51:35] >> I'm excited for people for it to get in

[2:51:37] the hands of people because I think it's

[2:51:38] going to really revoke that that sense

[2:51:40] of sublime which to me is one of the

[2:51:43] most meaningful things that you could do

[2:51:44] in life is to reenchant the experience

[2:51:47] and and all that's that we're capable

[2:51:49] of. Um so that really moves me. Thank

[2:51:52] you. Yeah,

[2:51:53] >> appreciate it. Sometimes I

[2:51:55] >> I don't know how the book's going to be

[2:51:57] received, so that makes me feel a lot

[2:51:59] better.

[2:51:59] >> Oh, man. It's it was it's incredible.

[2:52:02] Yeah. And it's uh it's really

[2:52:05] >> sweet to see the body of work that

[2:52:06] you've built up until the point and then

[2:52:08] the challenge that you had to surmount

[2:52:10] to then come to writing this.

[2:52:12] >> Um and

[2:52:14] >> it's uh it's got so many of the things I

[2:52:16] love all all coming together.

[2:52:18] >> Oh, good. Um and uh yeah man, you

[2:52:24] you know you you say to kind of wrap

[2:52:26] wrap a bow on that that suffering is our

[2:52:27] spiritual right of passage.

[2:52:29] >> Yeah.

[2:52:30] >> And you wrote that you know with your

[2:52:31] left hand paralyzed.

[2:52:33] >> Yeah.

[2:52:33] >> Um do you believe that these are actual

[2:52:36] rights of passages um meant for us

[2:52:39] somehow or just the meaning we give to

[2:52:42] suff the meaning we give to suffering to

[2:52:44] help lighten the load?

[2:52:47] Well, um, you know, it it's a it's a

[2:52:50] supreme human ability if you can

[2:52:53] transmute

[2:52:54] the pains of life, the separations, the

[2:52:58] deaths that you have to to witness

[2:53:00] into something higher into a kind of

[2:53:04] acceptance into kind of an idea that

[2:53:06] that this is what it means to be born

[2:53:08] and that I'm part of a process, part of

[2:53:10] a cycle. That is to me the ultimate

[2:53:14] sublime power in the universe that you

[2:53:17] can take the worst that life gives you.

[2:53:20] The fact that your life is going to end

[2:53:21] it and you transmute it into a feeling

[2:53:24] of of something sublime and powerful and

[2:53:28] beautiful and meaningful is like the

[2:53:31] ultimate power that that we can have.

[2:53:34] And um

[2:53:36] you know

[2:53:38] suffering

[2:53:40] uh you know like losing someone close to

[2:53:43] you is probably in some ways the highest

[2:53:48] form of suffering because

[2:53:51] when you die you die and then you're

[2:53:53] gone, right? And it's painful but then

[2:53:56] it's over. But the people you've left

[2:53:58] behind have this big gaping hole inside

[2:54:01] themselves and it can be a source of

[2:54:03] very deep depression. Particularly if

[2:54:05] it's like your parent or your loved one

[2:54:08] or even a pet. I've had Brutus, my cat

[2:54:11] who lived to 19 who saw me through five

[2:54:14] books. When he died, I was so

[2:54:16] distraught. I love that animal so much.

[2:54:19] Okay. But if you and this is going into

[2:54:23] the next chapter a bit, but if you can

[2:54:25] take that and kind of accept it and

[2:54:28] accept that this is all a part of life

[2:54:31] and everything dies and everybody around

[2:54:34] you will die. And if it's the spark of

[2:54:36] like compassion and empathy for for the

[2:54:39] fate of all living things, then that

[2:54:42] worst experience of living through the

[2:54:44] death of someone can translate into

[2:54:47] something very meaningful and very

[2:54:49] powerful. And to me, in my way of

[2:54:52] thinking, that is kind of the ultimate

[2:54:54] form of sublime.

[2:54:57] >> It's counterintuitive, right? We I think

[2:55:00] would largely associate the sublime with

[2:55:02] the pleasant experiences that would

[2:55:04] evoke that. And you're saying

[2:55:06] potentially the most the strongest form

[2:55:09] of evoking the sublime is something that

[2:55:11] is the most pain suffering. Yeah.

[2:55:16] Because it's it's calling up something

[2:55:19] in you that's that's very primal and

[2:55:22] very human and it's make it's awakening

[2:55:25] you. So, we've been talking about how

[2:55:28] we're sleepwalking through life, how

[2:55:29] we're not aware of anything.

[2:55:33] Suffering and pain makes you very Now,

[2:55:35] it can crush you. So, don't get me

[2:55:37] wrong, it's not always a sublime

[2:55:39] experience. Suffering and pain can

[2:55:41] completely destroy your willpower and

[2:55:43] make you a crippled individual for your

[2:55:46] whole life. But I'm trying to talk to

[2:55:48] you of a different way of approaching

[2:55:50] suffering and pain so it doesn't

[2:55:52] overwhelm you. So what happens when

[2:55:54] people are avoidant when they don't want

[2:55:57] when everything has to be convenient and

[2:55:58] easy

[2:56:00] when that moment arrives where they have

[2:56:02] to face death or their spouse dies or

[2:56:05] their parent dies they have no no

[2:56:07] internal resources to handle it and it

[2:56:10] does crush them and it does overwhelm

[2:56:11] them. But if you train yourself to use

[2:56:14] these moments as ways of acceptance of

[2:56:18] seeing that this is just a part of life

[2:56:19] this is everything is impermanent

[2:56:22] nothing lasts then then it's not it

[2:56:26] becomes into something else you are

[2:56:28] connecting look stars in the in the sky

[2:56:31] die they're born and they die you know

[2:56:34] that's entropy it's a part of the

[2:56:36] universe okay so death is like

[2:56:39] connecting you to everything in the

[2:56:41] universe I know I'm getting to the other

[2:56:42] chapter here.

[2:56:43] >> We're we're we're here. [laughter] We're

[2:56:45] here. Death has arrived in the

[2:56:47] conversation.

[2:56:49] >> Well, well, the last chapter is is so if

[2:56:52] there were doors that are that you're

[2:56:54] looking through,

[2:56:56] death is the last door and you're

[2:56:58] peering through it and you're looking at

[2:57:01] the darkness on the other side and the

[2:57:03] heaviness on the other side. That is the

[2:57:06] opposite of life. And when you peer

[2:57:08] through that door, it's not just death.

[2:57:11] is a thought I can call. Yeah, I'm going

[2:57:14] to die one day. No, when you peer

[2:57:16] through that door, you feel that

[2:57:18] heaviness. You feel it invading your

[2:57:20] body. You feel that death is inside of

[2:57:23] you. It's no longer this thought that

[2:57:25] will occur in 30, 40, 10 years or

[2:57:29] whatever. It's inside of you now. It's

[2:57:31] something physical and visceral. And you

[2:57:34] look at it and you feel the silence, the

[2:57:36] emptiness, the darkness that is eternal.

[2:57:39] And it has a very powerful effect on

[2:57:41] your physiology and neurology like it

[2:57:44] did on me. I couldn't look at the world

[2:57:46] afterwards, right? I had to go through

[2:57:50] that practically go through that door

[2:57:51] and be pulled back. You don't have to go

[2:57:54] through that door and be pulled back.

[2:57:56] You can voyage up to there. And you can

[2:57:58] encounter death on a much deeper level

[2:58:01] than just a thought.

[2:58:03] And I describe in the book the

[2:58:06] experiences of people who've had

[2:58:07] near-death experiences.

[2:58:09] And one gentleman, my favorite story,

[2:58:12] and there, John Ren Lewis, who was

[2:58:15] traveling in Thailand and was poisoned

[2:58:18] with drugs to put him to sleep so he

[2:58:20] could be robbed. And he nearly died.

[2:58:24] And he woke up with this feeling of

[2:58:28] suddenly the world looked like he was a

[2:58:29] newborn baby. Everything was beautiful,

[2:58:32] even this ugly, disgusting, putrid

[2:58:34] hospital room that he was in. The smells

[2:58:37] were magnificent, right? What is this?

[2:58:40] What happened to me? He realizes he had

[2:58:42] a near-death experience. And for the

[2:58:44] rest of his life, and the sensation

[2:58:46] keeps coming back, and he says, I'm

[2:58:49] going to try and teach humanity how to

[2:58:52] have this kind of relationship to death

[2:58:54] because I think it will save us in the

[2:58:56] end. He devoted the last 20 years of his

[2:58:59] life to that. He never quite got to the

[2:59:02] end where he could write about it and

[2:59:04] describe how to do it. But he leaves

[2:59:05] enough traces that

[2:59:09] converting our fear of death into a

[2:59:11] visceral experience of it could

[2:59:13] transform all of us. Because

[2:59:17] people who are aggressive and

[2:59:18] manipulative and angry, a lot of it

[2:59:21] comes from their repression of death. It

[2:59:23] comes from a deep deep deep wells of

[2:59:26] anxiety, right? And their way of getting

[2:59:29] away from death is to hurt other people

[2:59:31] is to inflict pain. To make other people

[2:59:33] die so that they don't so they feel more

[2:59:36] distant from death. We make humanity

[2:59:39] accept our mortality and go closer to

[2:59:42] it. It would transform the world. I'm

[2:59:44] not saying it would be paradise or

[2:59:46] utopia, but it would have a very

[2:59:48] powerful effect. So, I'm trying to and

[2:59:51] at the end of the chapter, the end of

[2:59:52] the book, I have an exercise because

[2:59:55] each chapter ends with exercises in

[2:59:58] which I literally try to have you lie

[3:00:00] down on the ground and go through your

[3:00:02] own death and it's based on my own

[3:00:05] experience and how I felt and it's based

[3:00:07] on all my research how literally the

[3:00:10] process of dying feels and how the brain

[3:00:14] is dying and as the brain dies all these

[3:00:17] sensations come to you. A lot of it

[3:00:20] described in the Tibetan book of the

[3:00:22] dead in the 11th chapter about the

[3:00:25] Bardau and the luminous consciousness

[3:00:27] that you can have at the moment of

[3:00:29] death. I'm trying to lead you through

[3:00:31] that. I'm not saying it's the ultimate

[3:00:33] exercise. It's my attempt, but I'm

[3:00:36] trying to take you so that you can have

[3:00:38] some of that experience while you're

[3:00:40] alive and and it could have a very

[3:00:42] powerful effect on you.

[3:00:46] >> Yeah. You mentioned earlier how much we

[3:00:48] are shielded from the reality of death.

[3:00:50] We turn it into cartoons. We our dogs

[3:00:53] and family members that you know die

[3:00:54] behind closed doors and um the uh so so

[3:01:00] let's just keep diving deeper here into

[3:01:03] the afterlife NDE's death itself. Yeah,

[3:01:07] >> I um

[3:01:11] I found the the stories you recounted

[3:01:13] and then also your own personal

[3:01:15] near-death experience

[3:01:17] illuminating uh because

[3:01:22] one of the biggest questions I feel like

[3:01:24] people have on spiritual quests and what

[3:01:26] religions are built upon is what happens

[3:01:29] after we die? And of course I'm not

[3:01:32] expecting you to to deliver the answer

[3:01:35] final final message here. Um, but it is

[3:01:38] interesting that we have reports of

[3:01:39] people that have literally been dead and

[3:01:41] come back and they share things and so

[3:01:44] what what did you find in researching

[3:01:46] the NDEs that was particularly evocative

[3:01:49] and you

[3:01:51] >> okay so um we think of consciousness as

[3:01:56] located in the brain right

[3:01:58] >> that it's an organ that's physical

[3:02:01] that's material and that it's there in

[3:02:02] the brain right so we the stories I have

[3:02:06] and There many more that I didn't

[3:02:08] include are people

[3:02:11] whose brains are not functioning.

[3:02:14] There's one famous story of Pamela Lowry

[3:02:17] Reynolds who is put into a state of

[3:02:19] close to death as possible so that

[3:02:22] somebody can surgically operate on her

[3:02:24] brain. Right? So everything is shut

[3:02:27] down. She can't hear. She can't see

[3:02:28] anything. And she's literally as close

[3:02:31] to a state of death as you could put

[3:02:32] somebody in. And yet in her death, in

[3:02:36] her coma, in this unconsciousness, she

[3:02:39] sees and experiences everything going on

[3:02:42] in the room as they're operating on her.

[3:02:44] And when she later relates it to the

[3:02:46] doctors, they're like, "There's no way

[3:02:48] you could know what music we were

[3:02:49] playing. There's no way you could have

[3:02:51] seen the instruments they were using.

[3:02:53] There's no way you could have heard the

[3:02:54] conversations going on in that operating

[3:02:56] room. You are unconscious.

[3:02:59] So what is it?" You know, some people

[3:03:02] have tried to rationally explain that

[3:03:03] story because it's it's one of the most

[3:03:06] con conundrums that rationalists and

[3:03:08] materialists struggle to try and explain

[3:03:10] away. I'm not saying that her

[3:03:14] descriptions of of of God and seeing

[3:03:17] dead people is is real. I don't know.

[3:03:20] Okay? Because I I I didn't have that

[3:03:22] experience. But what I can say is it

[3:03:25] presents a puzzle. If our consciousness

[3:03:28] is in our brains and yet the brain is

[3:03:30] dead and she is experiencing things,

[3:03:34] what is she experiencing?

[3:03:36] It opens up the question at least that

[3:03:40] consciousness isn't necessarily locked

[3:03:42] inside of our brain that maybe

[3:03:45] consciousness is something that exists

[3:03:47] outside that is something that we are

[3:03:50] picking up that's that pervades the

[3:03:52] universe. It's called pans psychism. And

[3:03:55] they're famous scientists who

[3:03:56] neuroscientists who believe in it who

[3:03:58] feel it's very serious that the and even

[3:04:01] physicists that there's a consciousness

[3:04:03] in the universe and that we are just

[3:04:05] simply trans we're it's transmitting to

[3:04:08] us and we're picking up these signals

[3:04:10] and so when the brain is dead there's

[3:04:13] still those signals going on and the

[3:04:15] person who is not yet dead is still

[3:04:16] picking them up. It makes us question

[3:04:19] our whole relationship to consciousness

[3:04:21] itself. And I have a story of a blind

[3:04:24] woman was a near-death experience and

[3:04:28] she suddenly sees things, right? And she

[3:04:31] can describe what she sees and it's

[3:04:34] pretty accurate, right? And yet the rest

[3:04:36] of her life she has no vision. She's

[3:04:38] born blind. She's completely blind. But

[3:04:41] for 5 minutes or whatever long it

[3:04:43] lasted, she was seeing things.

[3:04:46] How do you explain that? It's vision

[3:04:49] without a brain. It's like the mind can

[3:04:52] see things without the brain

[3:04:54] functioning.

[3:04:56] I'm just saying it opens up questions

[3:04:58] and it makes us rethink our rigid ideas

[3:05:02] of materialism.

[3:05:05] Right? And I have earlier in the book a

[3:05:08] story of a of a famous professor at UCLA

[3:05:13] who tried to solve the problem of

[3:05:15] obsessivecompulsive disorder OCD.

[3:05:18] He created a form of therapy that

[3:05:21] trained patients to analyze their own

[3:05:24] fears and and do activities that would

[3:05:28] calm them down. He took brain scans

[3:05:31] before and after his therapy and the

[3:05:34] brain scans after showed changes in

[3:05:37] their brain and he decided your thoughts

[3:05:41] can literally alter your brain and the

[3:05:45] wiring of your brain. So the invisible,

[3:05:47] the immaterial, your thoughts can affect

[3:05:50] the material.

[3:05:52] These are kind of things that should

[3:05:53] make us question our very rigid ideas of

[3:05:56] what the univer about the world is that

[3:05:58] we live in.

[3:06:00] Yeah. I've again been fortunate to speak

[3:06:03] to both sides of materialist

[3:06:06] reductionists and then also pansychist

[3:06:08] idealists

[3:06:10] and it's um it's so fascinating that we

[3:06:13] just have access to all these

[3:06:15] alternative over 400 different theories

[3:06:17] of consciousness.

[3:06:18] >> Yeah. And um certainly these NDE cases

[3:06:23] provide some sort of insight because

[3:06:25] there are themes that you can extract

[3:06:27] from them and similarities of

[3:06:29] >> uh things you experience um when people

[3:06:32] are clinically dead for minutes on end.

[3:06:35] Um we had one lady Anita Morjani on the

[3:06:37] podcast.

[3:06:38] >> Oh, she's amazing.

[3:06:39] >> She's amazing. Yeah.

[3:06:40] >> Amazing story. The the image of the of

[3:06:42] the warehouse

[3:06:43] >> Yeah.

[3:06:44] >> is one of the most beautiful things I've

[3:06:46] ever read on this. I wanted to include

[3:06:47] her in it, but for some reason I didn't.

[3:06:49] >> Yeah.

[3:06:49] >> But Yeah.

[3:06:50] >> Yeah. No, it's so And that they had that

[3:06:52] analogy of like the the flashlight

[3:06:54] versus the warehouse of consciousness.

[3:06:57] >> Explain that to explain it if you can

[3:06:58] cuz it's a great

[3:07:00] >> Yeah. Well, it maps on exactly with what

[3:07:02] you were saying earlier, right? And

[3:07:04] Huxley's reduction valve that like

[3:07:06] normal waking consciousness is like a

[3:07:07] flashlight of awareness. We're pointing

[3:07:09] at from point A to point B. In the

[3:07:11] deeper meditative states, you can

[3:07:12] diffuse that awareness, then dissolve

[3:07:15] the sense of individuality within your

[3:07:17] awareness, but you can keep widening

[3:07:20] that scope of context in her case in her

[3:07:22] in her case where she was dead. Um, and

[3:07:26] brought back to life. um that she like

[3:07:30] went to this warehouse analogy where it

[3:07:32] wasn't a flashlight. It wasn't just this

[3:07:34] room, but a much vaster where there's no

[3:07:36] boundaries of her consciousness and had

[3:07:39] experiences with people that had passed

[3:07:41] and um

[3:07:43] >> she cured herself of cancer.

[3:07:44] >> Mhm. Came back. Okay.

[3:07:46] >> Yeah. So, it's like the flashlight is

[3:07:47] our normal consciousness where we just

[3:07:49] see little pinpoints.

[3:07:51] >> She said it's like all the lights are

[3:07:53] turned on. You see everything in the

[3:07:55] warehouse. You see all everything going

[3:07:57] on. Yeah.

[3:07:58] >> Right. And she had that for brief

[3:08:00] moments in her NDE. What does that mean?

[3:08:03] It means we're normally just walking

[3:08:04] around with our flashlights.

[3:08:06] >> Mhm.

[3:08:07] >> Yeah. It uh I I I appreciate the

[3:08:11] humility epistemically at least when cuz

[3:08:13] it's very for me it's very exciting to

[3:08:16] then jump to okay so consciousness is

[3:08:18] fundamental and then you're like okay

[3:08:20] what does that really mean? Um but

[3:08:22] nonetheless we need to have the

[3:08:23] conversation of we don't know what we

[3:08:25] don't know. We don't know

[3:08:26] >> and we don't have a viable explanation

[3:08:29] for why consciousness would be emergent

[3:08:31] from matter. Um so

[3:08:33] >> let's keep exploring.

[3:08:34] >> Yeah, we can't explain how life emerged

[3:08:36] from from inorganic material. We have no

[3:08:39] explanation for how the universe we're

[3:08:41] surrounded by mysteries.

[3:08:43] >> So you give the example of walking

[3:08:46] through your own visualization of your

[3:08:48] own death.

[3:08:49] >> How do you think that the contemplation

[3:08:51] of your own mortality changes how you

[3:08:53] live? You know, I think that we've

[3:08:56] shared a lot of words throughout this

[3:08:57] whole podcast.

[3:08:58] >> Um, one of the most I just find that

[3:09:01] death always brings this immediiacy to

[3:09:03] life, you know, and you shared it as

[3:09:04] well in your stroke where it's like,

[3:09:06] >> wo, like the sensory experience becomes

[3:09:09] way more vivid. And

[3:09:11] >> so, talk to me about the the

[3:09:13] relationship there between death and

[3:09:14] life and and how uh important it is for

[3:09:17] us to reconnect with that reality.

[3:09:20] >> Well, it it has uh several aspects. So,

[3:09:24] um, you know, mountain climbers,

[3:09:27] uh, get addicted to the sensation where

[3:09:30] they're climbing up a mountain and they

[3:09:32] can look back and there's abyss behind

[3:09:33] them. They could die at any moment. They

[3:09:35] can fall and it's real. And that sense

[3:09:38] of being on the edge between life and

[3:09:41] death

[3:09:43] intensifies their experience of life to

[3:09:45] a very high degree. You don't have to be

[3:09:47] a mountain climber. You are continually

[3:09:50] walking on that edge. Your body is very

[3:09:53] fragile. At any moment, things could

[3:09:55] stop functioning. You can die tomorrow.

[3:09:58] So, visualize yourself walking on that

[3:10:01] edge. Literally, here's a cliff. You're

[3:10:04] walking on the edge. You're alive. And

[3:10:06] there is death, right? And that sense of

[3:10:09] walking along a cliff. Ah, wow. It kind

[3:10:13] of wakes you up. It makes every moment

[3:10:15] of life that much more intense. So you

[3:10:18] can be aware of the fragility of your

[3:10:21] body and it doesn't have to make you

[3:10:23] paranoid and nervous and anxious and it

[3:10:25] can actually make you every moment

[3:10:28] heightened and that much more intense.

[3:10:31] And then

[3:10:33] when I had my stroke, I was like

[3:10:36] suddenly very helpless and vulnerable

[3:10:39] and dependent. And I'm a very

[3:10:41] independent person. And in the

[3:10:43] aftermath, one effect on me was an

[3:10:47] incredible amount of compassion

[3:10:50] for other people who feel defenseless,

[3:10:53] who feel weak and vulnerable, who may

[3:10:56] not have enough money to to sustain them

[3:10:58] during the day, who have other ailments

[3:11:00] that are making them to to all kinds of

[3:11:03] people who are feeling weak and

[3:11:05] dependent. And so the sense of your own

[3:11:09] mortality

[3:11:11] should make you awaken to the fact that

[3:11:13] everybody is going through the same

[3:11:15] thing. And maybe you're disconnected

[3:11:18] from them. Maybe it's a parent who you

[3:11:20] who kind of irritates you and you've

[3:11:22] grown alienated from. But if you sit

[3:11:25] there and you focus on their mortality

[3:11:27] and their anxiety about it and how it's

[3:11:30] warping them and how they have these

[3:11:31] fears, it can humanize them to you to

[3:11:34] the degree that maybe it can melt some

[3:11:37] of your defensiveness and some of the

[3:11:39] barriers between you. So a closeness to

[3:11:42] death can create a kind of now it can

[3:11:47] have the opposite effect. There are

[3:11:49] sadists like that. But it should have

[3:11:52] the effect of being aware of the

[3:11:54] mortality of everyone and kind of

[3:11:57] opening up a deep and wide compassion

[3:12:00] for all creatures that die including

[3:12:02] animals. Right? So try to imagine

[3:12:08] I think it's 80 billion homo sapiens

[3:12:11] that have lived and have died. Right?

[3:12:14] They went through the same thing that

[3:12:15] you're going through now. And they met

[3:12:17] death and it was painful. And all of

[3:12:20] them went through that. And it should

[3:12:22] give you a sense of a deep deep

[3:12:25] connection to all the ancestor behind

[3:12:27] us, to all the drama that disappeared

[3:12:29] with them, to all the pain and suffering

[3:12:31] that people have had. And so it's not

[3:12:34] just you. It's not just about you and

[3:12:36] your minuscule little problems and

[3:12:39] worries and anxieties. It's universal.

[3:12:42] Everybody is going through it. It's a

[3:12:44] way to break up your own ego because you

[3:12:47] think that oh only I have pain, only I

[3:12:49] am suffering, oh my life is so terrible,

[3:12:51] blah blah blah blah blah blah. No,

[3:12:53] people are going through much worse

[3:12:55] things and everybody is facing death. So

[3:12:57] it it kind of gives you a sense of

[3:12:59] something much larger than your own

[3:13:01] pain.

[3:13:03] I think what you just shared in the book

[3:13:05] at large has this amazing ability to

[3:13:07] just shake you awake, you know, like

[3:13:10] realize you're alive and what a gift it

[3:13:12] is. You ended with this Japanese poet.

[3:13:15] Yeah. Why?

[3:13:17] Well, I I am uh deeply imbued in in

[3:13:22] Japanese culture as much as a western

[3:13:24] can because I love particularly Zen

[3:13:27] Buddhism, but everything about Japanese

[3:13:29] culture that intrigues me. And

[3:13:32] a major part of of Zen and Buddhism is

[3:13:35] the impermanence of everything that

[3:13:37] exists to the point where you don't even

[3:13:40] see that there are any forms. Everything

[3:13:42] is in the process of dissolving. So

[3:13:45] there's nothing actually real out there.

[3:13:47] Only impermanence is real. And so it's a

[3:13:50] story of a Japanese poet uh who wrote

[3:13:53] mostly haiku named Issa Kobayashi Issa.

[3:13:57] Lived at the turn of the 19th century.

[3:13:59] And his life was just endless pain and

[3:14:02] suffering. His mother dying. his father

[3:14:04] remarrying, his stepmother torturing

[3:14:06] him, not letting him read, not letting

[3:14:08] him write, being shipped off to Ido,

[3:14:11] Tokyo, Tokyo back then, alone and and

[3:14:14] trying to make it through life and being

[3:14:16] homeless and hungry and then wandering

[3:14:19] around Japan as a pilgrim, begging for

[3:14:22] food and writing his poetry. And then

[3:14:25] his father died and then he marries

[3:14:28] a series of all of his children die

[3:14:30] after a few months. one daughter that he

[3:14:32] loves deeply survives to two years and

[3:14:35] then she dies. That his wife gives child

[3:14:38] birth and dies in childirth and then the

[3:14:40] baby dies on and on and on and on. The

[3:14:44] kind of experiences of rejection from

[3:14:47] parents of alone, of being homeless, of

[3:14:50] being hungry that would a human

[3:14:53] being. And yet he has this joyful

[3:14:56] Buddhistic belief in the impermanence of

[3:14:59] life is the grace of life. and I'm going

[3:15:02] to embrace it in every form. And so he

[3:15:04] falls in love with all the marginalized

[3:15:07] creatures of the world, the snails, the

[3:15:10] birds that nobody throws pebbles on, but

[3:15:12] that nobody loves like pigeons,

[3:15:15] prostitutes, and criminals and homeless

[3:15:17] people. He loves them more because they

[3:15:20] know about impermanence. and being close

[3:15:22] to impermanence, being close to

[3:15:24] everything. He grew up in an area of

[3:15:26] Japan that was alpine, that was snow for

[3:15:31] half the year. There was no life, no

[3:15:34] sounds, no birds, no insects, just snow

[3:15:38] and silence. And then spring comes and

[3:15:41] suddenly there's green everywhere and

[3:15:43] there's butterflies and there's insects

[3:15:45] and there's birds flying around. It was

[3:15:47] like that became the model of his life.

[3:15:49] there's always this process of death

[3:15:52] covering so much of of of people's

[3:15:54] experience. And so he embraced the

[3:15:56] impermanence of life. And it even after

[3:16:00] his daughter died, which was the worst

[3:16:01] of all, he felt the pain of losing

[3:16:04] someone that close, but he still came

[3:16:07] back to that moment of when you embrace

[3:16:09] the impermanence. Life has this beauty

[3:16:12] and this intensity and this stillness to

[3:16:14] it that's absolutely essential. and he

[3:16:16] was a Buddhist so it was connected to

[3:16:18] his religious beliefs but it's the sense

[3:16:21] that when somebody dies it's not about

[3:16:26] you it's not about your pain your grief

[3:16:29] your loneliness it's about how it's a

[3:16:32] universal experience as I said stars are

[3:16:35] born and stars die so it's a way of

[3:16:38] saying that you approach death as this

[3:16:41] universal phenomena that you accept and

[3:16:44] that opens you up to all of life and to

[3:16:47] all of creation.

[3:16:52] >> You've said that this is potentially

[3:16:55] your last big book.

[3:16:56] >> Uh yeah. Is that right? I don't think I

[3:17:00] could do another book like that cuz man,

[3:17:01] I'm I'm I'm heading into my late 60s. I

[3:17:04] don't have my energy. I don't have the

[3:17:07] powers I used to have. I had a stroke.

[3:17:10] I don't It might be my swan song, but I

[3:17:13] will write shorter books. And I'm I'm

[3:17:15] looking at other projects that I will

[3:17:17] do. I'm not finished writing.

[3:17:18] >> Yeah.

[3:17:19] >> I don't think my body can withstand

[3:17:21] another project like this.

[3:17:25] >> It's uh I know I've shared, but I really

[3:17:27] do think it's so special what you've

[3:17:29] become a conduit for and all the uh in

[3:17:32] everything that you've shared. If

[3:17:35] somebody at the end of this conversation

[3:17:37] was to leave this conversation as they

[3:17:39] will, walk back into the rest of their

[3:17:40] life and you wanted them to carry one

[3:17:44] thing with them and you had 60 seconds

[3:17:46] to share, what would that be?

[3:17:49] Well, it's it's to make you feel like

[3:17:53] you're being alive and being conscious

[3:17:58] is not something that you just go around

[3:18:00] and don't think about. I want you to go

[3:18:03] and be deeply present with the

[3:18:07] experience of the planet Earth that you

[3:18:09] are on and how strange and weird and

[3:18:13] marvelous it is to see life on this

[3:18:16] planet that there are probably no other

[3:18:18] maybe there may not be any other planet

[3:18:20] in the universe that has life. You were

[3:18:23] gifted this thing by this insane chain

[3:18:25] of circumstances.

[3:18:27] It's one of a kind. It's one experience

[3:18:29] that you have. You only live once to to

[3:18:32] coin a phrase. So just re think about it

[3:18:36] deeply and awaken yourself. The chapter

[3:18:39] the title of chapter 2 which to me is

[3:18:42] sums everything up is awaken to the

[3:18:45] strangeness of being alive. It is

[3:18:47] strange to be alive. It is not something

[3:18:50] you you just take for granted. It's very

[3:18:53] strange to be conscious. It's very

[3:18:55] strange to be wandering around with

[3:18:56] other species and other humans.

[3:18:59] Think about that and and and internalize

[3:19:02] that and not don't be asleep, but awaken

[3:19:05] to this very weird reality of what you

[3:19:08] were born into.

[3:19:10] That's about the best I could do.

[3:19:12] [laughter]

[3:19:13] >> Five five 10 out of 10.

[3:19:15] >> Okay. Okay.

[3:19:17] >> Robert, thank you so much for sharing

[3:19:19] your your heart with us today. And

[3:19:21] >> thank you so much for having me.

[3:19:22] >> Yeah, it's been an absolute joy. Okay.

[3:19:24] >> I really really appreciate um your time,

[3:19:26] your energy, and the care and love and

[3:19:29] devotion you put into the law of

[3:19:30] sublime, which is now available to

[3:19:32] order. And we'll leave it

[3:19:33] >> pre-order. It'll be out on November

[3:19:35] 10th.

[3:19:35] >> Yeah. By the time this release, it

[3:19:37] should be it should be out or just

[3:19:39] about. And um

[3:19:42] >> amazing work, man. Thank you. So, is

[3:19:44] there anything else on your heart that

[3:19:44] you want to share before we wrap up?

[3:19:46] >> Uh I don't think so. I think I we

[3:19:49] covered a lot and I really appreciate

[3:19:50] that.

[3:19:51] >> Yeah. I think I think I think that's

[3:19:53] pretty much it.

[3:19:54] >> Amazing. Thank you, Robert.

[3:19:55] >> Thank you so much for having me. I

[3:19:57] really enjoyed it.

[3:19:57] >> Yeah, likewise. All right, everyone.

[3:19:59] Until next time, be well.

[3:20:02] [music]

[3:20:12] [music]

Andre Duqum
ArtistAndre Duqum

André Duqum hosts the Know Thyself Podcast, a long-form interview program exploring philosophy, self-inquiry, and liberation from psychological illusion. His work centers on what h…

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SublimeRobert-greeneDead-timeConsciousnessAttention

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Greene describes adult life as dead time, measured in abstract blocks of minutes and hours, where life can feel flat and you don't know why you're unhappy. He contrasts this with children, who live inside time like a river and meet each day with openness and awe. He believes much adult restlessness is a buried memory of that unfiltered way of experiencing the world.
Greene organizes the sublime into twelve doorways: cosmic, biological, pagan, childhood, neural, interspecies, love, historical, demon, aesthetic, dynamical, and death. Together they run from the scale of the universe to the scale of the nervous system and from ancient ritual to the finality of death. He treats each as a route a reader can deliberately take.
After a stroke left his left side paralyzed and he could not type, Greene had to handwrite every draft, then edit by hand. He spent seven years writing the book this way. The slowness, he suggests, shaped a book about attention by making attention unavoidable.
Greene uses the image of an invisible circle to describe how our thoughts stay within familiar concerns and inherited ideas. He says the sublime happens when we touch something outside that circle, which he likens to an electric shock. The experience interrupts the loop and makes the world look strange and vivid again.
Greene's own experience suggests yes. Confined to his home after the stroke, he found what he called his Amazon and Gobi Desert in a small backyard full of butterflies, hummingbirds, insects, and birds. He argues the sublime was always present and that what was missing was the attention to notice it.
According to the episode summary, Greene links avoidance of pain and death to a loss of inner resilience. When suffering and mortality are faced deliberately, they can be transmuted into acceptance and compassion, along with a deeper kinship with everyone who has lived, suffered, and died. The sublime becomes accessible through that honest confrontation rather than through escape.
The episode summary connects Greene's ideas to Gurdjieff's practice of self-remembering, a form of focused attention. The brain filters huge amounts of sensory data to help us function, and that filter also builds a sense of a separate self. Focused attention can loosen the filter so the world appears strange, vivid, and alive again.

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