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Inspiration

Journalism as Spiritual Practice: FindingPurpose on the Road

Rainn Wilson
Rainn Wilson
Sep 6, 2026
9 min di lettura
There's a particular exhaustion that settles over downtown Los Angeles—the kind that comes not from exertion but from purposelessness. People ordering DoorDash from studio apartments, dating through algorithms, working jobs that exist only to pay rent, and underneath it all, a persistent loneliness that no convenience can touch. This is the spiritual crisis at the heart of contemporary urban American life, and it's what Channel 5's Andrew Callaghan keeps returning to in his documentary work: the collapse of community in an age of unprecedented connectivity.

For Callaghan, the solution isn't radical off-grid homesteading or a complete rejection of modern life. It's something more practical and equally radical: move to a small town. The filmmaker and digital journalist now lives in a 220-person settlement in the Mojave Desert, paying $400 a month in rent, knowing everyone from the eldest residents to the youngest, and—perhaps most importantly—feeling like he belongs to something larger than himself. That shift from isolation-amid-millions to genuine rootedness in community is the through-line of his conversation with Rainn Wilson on the Soul Boom podcast, a discussion that treats journalism, travel, and place-making as acts of spiritual consequence.

Lettura · 8 sezioni

What Does Spirituality Actually Look Like in Practice?

When Wilson asks Callaghan directly whether America needs a spiritual revolution, the response is refreshingly honest: "I don't really know what spirituality means." But Callaghan's uncertainty opens onto something more interesting than a pat definition. He offers an intuition instead—the sense that having right intentions, knowing yourself, and following the path that feels true will ultimately deliver you where you're meant to be. He mentions belief in "a force of good existing like above us and around us," and love as "the sauce of life."

Wilson sharpens the concept: spirituality is anything a monkey can't do. Monkeys eat, sleep, form communities—all valuable. But spirituality emerges in creating art, seeking transcendence, appreciating beauty, considering mortality, reflecting on choices, cultivating virtues, and practicing compassion even across tribal boundaries. It's the irreducibly human work.

For Callaghan, the closest thing to a spiritual experience is being able to film someone's story in the field, absorb their message, and then distribute it to millions through his platform. "That feels like I've alchemized something from like out of thin air," he says. In his spiritual tradition, Wilson responds, there's a phrase: work in the spirit of service is worship in the eyes of God. The distinction is crucial. Work pursued for money and status is one category; work pursued because you've found someone whose story demands to be told, and you've been given the means to tell it—that's something else entirely. It's aligned action, and alignment, Wilson suggests, is a form of actual worship.

The Road as a Spiritual Dimension

Callaghan's hitchhiking journeys—which began as a lark, a documented road trip, and became the foundation of his Channel 5 aesthetic—operate under what he calls "the spirituality of the road." He's not referring to highways as concrete thoroughfares, but to the road as a separate dimension, a purgatory-like space outside mainstream American consciousness. It's inhabited by vagabonds, hitchhikers, artists, and yes, probably some serial killers. But the road itself, as a concept and a practice, operates by its own logic.

The road gods—figures like Jack Kerouac, Ed Buryn (author of Vagabonding in America), David Choe, and Hunter S. Thompson—speak through thunder and clouds. They model a way of moving through the world that is radically open, trusting, and attentive. "If you truly submit to where the road will take you, the open American interstate system, it will reward you with everything you were looking for," Callaghan says. "You just have to talk to everybody, keep an open mind." It's a spiritual discipline, though not one that requires sitting meditation or a formal practice. It requires surrender, conversation, and the willingness to be changed by what you encounter.

Why Gen Z Should Leave the Cities

The gentrification of major cities has created what Callaghan describes as a lords-and-peasants class structure with no cohesion, no real community. The solution he's pushing among his generation isn't romantic back-to-the-land idealism; it's pragmatic relocation to small towns outside metropolitan centers. Not everyone is called to homesteading or complete off-grid living, but city kids especially—people like Callaghan himself—would find genuine belonging in rural and small-town America.

His own move to a 220-person desert town offers a proof of concept. The rent is affordable, the social fabric is intact, and you're not competing with millions of other people for the same limited sense of purpose and connection. There's an implicit critique here of the startup-culture fantasy that has hollowed out so many American cities: the promise that if you go to the right place and hustle hard enough, you'll find meaning. The actual result, Callaghan observes, is loneliness, atomization, and a creeping sense that you're not doing enough, that your life isn't substantial enough, that you should be somewhere else.

The Intimacy Economy and Terminal Onlinehood

Parallel to the urban isolation crisis is what might be called the intimacy economy—the marketplace in which loneliness itself becomes a product, monetized through AI companionship, parasocial relationships, and the algorithmic cultivation of desire. Gen Z, having grown up with smartphones and social media as the primary infrastructure of social life, faces a particular vulnerability to this economy. The conversation touches on what it means to be "terminally online," to conduct all human connection through digital mediation, and to mistake information for intimacy.

The antidote Callaghan models is radical offline presence: knowing your neighbors by name, sharing meals, having conversations that aren't optimized for engagement metrics, and building social structures that don't require a platform to be real. It's not Luddism; he uses his digital platform precisely to document and celebrate this kind of analog rootedness.

Climate, AI, and the Infrastructure of Extraction

One of the more pointed moments in the conversation concerns AI data centers and their environmental cost. As AI systems proliferate and corporations race to train ever-larger language models, the energy infrastructure required grows exponentially—and that infrastructure is often built in rural communities, consuming local water supplies and power grids. It's a version of the classic extractive relationship: the city-based economy takes what it needs from rural areas (labor, land, resources, stories) and leaves behind the consequences.

Callaghan's point is that these externalities aren't incidental to the technology; they're central to how contemporary capital operates. The people who benefit from AI systems aren't the ones breathing polluted air or watching their groundwater depleted. But those who do—rural Americans, Native communities, the Global South—are precisely the communities whose stories Callaghan's work often elevates. It's another dimension of why authentic community and localized decision-making matter: they're the only force that can push back against systems designed to extract value and export consequences.

Why Doing What You Love Hurts

There's a paradox in Callaghan's position that deserves attention. He speaks passionately about following your bliss, pursuing your own way, doing the work that feels spiritually aligned. Yet he also acknowledges that this pursuit is relentless—he's always chasing the next documentary, the next story, the next moment of creative breakthrough. The spiritual discipline is real, but it comes with a cost. You can't sit still. You're always on. The work becomes all-consuming.

This is the shadow side of the creative life that rarely gets discussed in inspirational narratives. Doing what you love doesn't mean you're free; it often means you're more enslaved than ever, because you can't take breaks without guilt, can't say no without feeling like you're betraying your purpose. Callaghan doesn't shy away from this tension. He acknowledges it. And yet he continues, because the alternative—the soul-death of work divorced from love—is worse.

Why Andrew Still Hitchhikes

Given how central hitchhiking has become to his public identity and his work, it would be easy to assume Callaghan hitchhikes out of nostalgia or brand consistency. But he continues to hitchhike because it remains, for him, a practice of spiritual attentiveness. Every ride is a conversation, every passenger is a potential story, every encounter is a way of staying awake and responsive to what the world is offering. It's also, in a sense, the opposite of the digital platforms that amplify his work: it's immediate, unmediated, reciprocal, and wholly uncertain of outcome.

In a world increasingly mediated by algorithms and prediction, the road remains one of the few spaces where genuine contingency still exists—where you don't know who you'll meet or what they'll teach you, and that unknowability is the whole point.

Where to Go From Here

The conversation between Callaghan and Wilson points toward several tangible possibilities. If you feel isolated in a major city, consider whether a move to a small town might address that rootlessness more directly than another therapy session or self-help book. If you're considering a creative project or documentary work, examine whether it aligns with a genuine desire to serve and illuminate, not just to accumulate reach. If you've internalized the message that your job is your identity, question that assumption—there are other ways to structure your life that don't require you to perform exhaustion. And if the digital world is making you lonely, remember that the cure for loneliness isn't more connection; it's belonging, and belonging requires place, time, and people who know your name.

Callaghan's work and life offer a model for how to use modern tools—cameras, platforms, audiences—in service of ancient human needs: to be seen, to belong, to contribute to something larger than yourself, and to move through the world with an open heart. The road, in his telling, is still there. It's still offering everything you're looking for. You just have to get on it.

Transcript

[0:00] If you go to like downtown LA, it's just

[0:02] people ordering DoorDash from their

[0:03] studio apartments and going dating

[0:05] online and working to live and just

[0:07] being sad and lonely. The major cities

[0:09] have been gentrified to the point of of,

[0:11] you know, there being like really no

[0:13] cohesion. Like the community has kind of

[0:15] collapsed like a lords and peasants

[0:16] style class structure.

[0:18] >> It's why I'm pushing everybody in my

[0:19] generation to go back to rural living.

[0:21] Not fully off the grid homesteading, but

[0:23] to go and like live in the in small

[0:25] towns outside the cities. At least city

[0:27] kids like me. Like right now I live in a

[0:28] town in the Mojave Desert with 220

[0:30] people. I pay 400 bucks a month in rent.

[0:33] I know everyone in town from the old to

[0:35] the young and I feel like I'm a part of

[0:36] something. Can you say the name of the

[0:38] town?

[0:52] >> I can say that it's in between

[0:58] >> Hey there, it's me Rainn Wilson and I

[1:01] want to dig into the human experience. I

[1:03] want to have conversations about a

[1:04] spiritual revolution. Let's get deep

[1:07] with our favorite thinkers, friends, and

[1:08] entertainers about life, meaning, and

[1:12] idiocy.

[1:13] Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast.

[1:21] Our show would not be possible without

[1:22] our sponsors, Growth Therapy, Cowboy

[1:24] Colostrum, and Fencer. Links and promo

[1:26] codes on screen and in the description.

[1:28] Enjoy the show.

[1:30] Soul Boom is a show about spiritual

[1:33] tools for modern problems and

[1:36] you know, usually with my guests, I like

[1:38] to dig into kind of

[1:41] spiritual quandaries, mental health

[1:43] issues, yeah, but I also view you as

[1:47] someone that I really haven't spoken to

[1:49] the likes of you on this show, which is

[1:51] someone at the at the front lines, at

[1:53] the cutting edge of a lot of fringe

[1:55] culture, a journalism, you know, what's

[1:58] going on, you know, politically around

[2:00] the world. You just got back from the

[2:01] West Bank. And number one, the thesis of

[2:06] my book and the show is that we need a

[2:08] spiritual revolution. Would you agree

[2:10] with that? Disagree? How would you see

[2:13] some kind of spiritual revolution

[2:15] happening in the world? And do you think

[2:18] it's possible? And do you think it could

[2:21] make a positive

[2:22] impact?

[2:23] >> I hope so, man. I mean,

[2:26] I don't really know what spirituality

[2:27] means. I wish I could offer something

[2:29] more substantive, but I guess

[2:31] knowing that like if you have the right

[2:33] intentions in life, like things will

[2:35] work themselves out. And then knowing

[2:37] who you are and following like the path

[2:38] that you feel is right, yeah, will

[2:41] ultimately land you where you want to

[2:42] be. Like I do believe in like a force of

[2:45] good existing like above us and around

[2:47] us as something like governs affairs.

[2:49] Believe like in love as like the sauce

[2:50] of life.

[2:51] >> Well, that I like the sauce of life and

[2:54] the source of life. But I can help

[2:56] define spirituality for you.

[2:57] >> Yeah, yeah.

[2:58] >> It's anything a monkey can't do.

[3:00] >> Mhm.

[3:01] >> So, there's a lot of stuff we do as

[3:02] humans that monkeys can do, right? We

[3:04] we throw our poop,

[3:06] you know, we eat, we sleep, we form

[3:09] communities, and that's all great.

[3:11] There's nothing wrong with any of those

[3:12] kind of more animal-like aspects of our

[3:15] nature. But then there's stuff like

[3:17] creating art, seeking transcendence,

[3:20] appreciating beauty, considering our

[3:22] mortality, reflecting on choices that

[3:25] we're making, wanting to cultivate

[3:27] positive virtues with one another,

[3:30] loving people that are even beyond our

[3:32] tribe even when it's difficult,

[3:35] cultivating compassion. So, those are

[3:37] that's what I would That's how I would

[3:39] define it.

[3:40] >> That helps me. Well, maybe the closest

[3:41] thing that I I would consider

[3:44] to be a spiritual experience is like

[3:46] being able to film something in the

[3:48] field and like really connect with

[3:50] someone's story and like be able to

[3:52] absorb their message and then using the

[3:55] platform that I have

[3:56] distribute that message to millions of

[3:59] people.

[4:00] >> Yeah.

[4:00] >> That feels like I've alchemized

[4:02] something from like out of thin air.

[4:04] >> Yeah.

[4:05] >> That feels like a spiritual gesture. If

[4:08] that makes sense.

[4:08] >> It totally makes sense and I think that

[4:11] for many artists, creators, but also

[4:15] doctors or architects,

[4:18] uh

[4:18] there is that component to our mission

[4:23] and what we do. You were obviously doing

[4:25] what you were meant to be doing even

[4:27] though this all started as like a you

[4:29] taking a hitchhiking trip and wanting to

[4:31] document it, uh you know, as a lark. And

[4:35] I I do think that you know, there's an

[4:38] expression of our highest nature that

[4:40] can come through the skills that we gain

[4:42] in in the world.

[4:43] >> So maybe spirituality could be related

[4:45] to work ethic.

[4:47] You know, my first answer was going to

[4:48] be I can't pursue any sort of spiritual

[4:50] practice because I spend every waking

[4:52] second trying to do the next thing and

[4:54] create the next documentary and like,

[4:55] you know, but I mean I do enjoy it. It

[4:57] feels like a spiritual practice. It

[4:58] feels like a religious pursuit a little

[5:00] bit.

[5:00] >> From from my spiritual tradition, there

[5:02] is a phrase that says work in the spirit

[5:04] of service is worship in the eyes of

[5:07] God. So

[5:09] yeah, work for the accruing of money is

[5:12] something different. But that's what

[5:13] you're talking about. You're like, "Oh

[5:14] my god, I met this incredible person. I

[5:16] want to tell their story." And look at

[5:17] that, I put it up and got a million and

[5:19] a half views. And people are like, "Wow,

[5:21] what an what an awesome human being you

[5:23] found out there in the field, Andrew.

[5:24] Thank you. I never would have thought I

[5:26] would have gotten to see that story."

[5:29] There is a total alignment there and

[5:31] that

[5:32] from from where I'm coming from is a

[5:34] form of actual worship.

[5:36] >> Yeah, and especially if you can be a

[5:39] gateway to inspire somebody. That's the

[5:41] most exciting part. You know, like the

[5:43] coolest thing someone could say to me is

[5:45] like I hitchhiked because of you or I

[5:48] was going to go, you know, work some

[5:50] finance job that I hated, but then I saw

[5:51] you take your own way, so I decided to

[5:53] take my own way. And I'm like, "Wow,

[5:54] that's so crazy that, you know, pursuing

[5:57] the things that I

[5:58] love have made other people want to do

[6:00] that as well." And that's an amazing

[6:02] feeling.

[6:03] >> Are there hundreds of young Andrew

[6:04] Callahans out there with cameras and

[6:06] camper vans and suit jackets running

[6:08] around trying to

[6:09] >> Not not with the camper van, but there's

[6:11] hundreds of young

[6:13] mostly Caucasian males with microphones

[6:14] and suit jackets.

[6:15] >> And little micro and little mustaches?

[6:17] >> No, no, no mustaches. Some of them have

[6:19] A's Hotel millennial mustaches. I also

[6:21] believe in a higher power though.

[6:22] >> Okay. Hey everybody, make sure to click

[6:24] subscribe. It's right over here

[6:26] somewhere, please, pretty please. It

[6:28] would help us at Soulboom so much. Click

[6:30] subscribe.

[6:32] >> which is like the road. I don't mean

[6:34] like the concrete thoroughfares that

[6:35] enable road trips.

[6:36] >> Yeah.

[6:36] >> I'm talking about this like just like

[6:39] rolling the dice, like the road, like

[6:41] aimless travel, like um

[6:43] the transitory state that you enter when

[6:46] you just surrender

[6:48] with complete spiritual submission to

[6:50] the higher power that is the road,

[6:53] capital R. And the road gods, I think

[6:55] everyone has their own road gods, but

[6:56] some Ed Burn who wrote Vagabonding in

[6:58] America, David Choe is a road god,

[7:00] Hunter S. Thompson is a definitely a

[7:01] road god, you know, all the highwaymen

[7:02] of the past

[7:04] that can kind of guide you. They speak

[7:06] through the thunder and the clouds.

[7:07] >> What do you got, three?

[7:08] >> Yeah, everyone, you know, there's

[7:09] different people.

[7:10] >> Mhm.

[7:11] >> But the road is a

[7:12] >> Jack Kerouac.

[7:13] >> Yeah, the road is a place that exists

[7:15] like outside of mainstream American

[7:16] consciousness. It's like a purgatory or

[7:18] like a separate dimension full of like,

[7:21] you know, vagabonds, hitchhikers, some

[7:23] artists, probably some serial killers. I

[7:24] mean, there, you know, the road is

[7:26] gnarly, but that it's that when you hit

[7:27] the road, there's something that

[7:30] I just feel if you truly submit to where

[7:32] the road will take you, the open

[7:34] American interstate system, it will

[7:35] reward you with everything you were

[7:36] looking for. You just have to talk to

[7:38] everybody, keep an open mind.

[7:39] >> How aren't we lucky to live in North

[7:41] America where the road is a thing cuz if

[7:43] you if you lived in like Belgium or

[7:45] Luxembourg, there ain't no road.

[7:48] >> That's what it freaked me out the most

[7:50] when I drove from Berlin to like Ukraine

[7:52] is that there was no like Pilot or like

[7:55] Loves or Flying J Travel Centers. You

[7:57] know, where you can get a big corn dog.

[7:58] >> Yeah.

[7:59] >> Nothing. You can't get a 10-gallon hat

[8:00] or a corn dog or a neon safety vest or

[8:03] you know, you know, you've been

[8:04] obviously you've been to Buckee's

[8:05] before.

[8:05] >> Sure.

[8:06] >> You know, they have those warm cashews

[8:08] covered in brown sugar cooking in the

[8:09] little microwave thing.

[8:10] >> Yeah, they smell so good. I bet you

[8:12] can't find those in the entire continent

[8:13] of Europe.

[8:14] >> You cannot, but you can find a Sbarro's

[8:16] though. It's pretty sad the the the fast

[8:19] food chains that come make their way to

[8:21] Europe. Like, "Oh, no. Really? You got

[8:23] that one?"

[8:25] >> I'm surprised they got Sbarro. Sbarro,

[8:27] I don't want to offend the

[8:30] Sbarro's not my favorite. Okay.

[8:32] >> No, Sbarro's is not my favorite either.

[8:34] There's a great Sbarro's joke in The

[8:36] Office where Michael Scott goes to New

[8:37] York City. He's like, "Ah, New York

[8:39] pizza." And he goes into Sbarro's.

[8:40] >> Mhm.

[8:41] >> Um

[8:42] but

[8:43] I love that you're afraid of offending

[8:45] Sbarro's

[8:46] company and fans

[8:49] cuz

[8:50] you know, in this conversation I imagine

[8:52] you're you're going to be offending all

[8:53] kinds of different groups of people, but

[8:55] you're a little bit hesitant about the

[8:57] Sbarro's at all.

[8:58] >> Well, yeah, because you know, someone's

[8:59] working a dead-end job at Sbarro right

[9:01] now and they're you know, a fan of mine

[9:03] or a supporter of mine and they put

[9:04] their all into making those sandwiches

[9:06] with the sub sandwiches. I don't want

[9:08] them to like feel discouraged and

[9:09] >> they make sub sandwiches. I think it's

[9:11] pizza.

[9:12] >> Sbarro makes pizza?

[9:13] >> I think that's a pizza place.

[9:15] >> No way, dude. Sbarro's not pizza, man.

[9:18] >> the pizza place? What's the pizza chain?

[9:20] What am I thinking of?

[9:21] >> John's.

[9:22] Sbarro doesn't make pizza.

[9:23] >> Sbarro's a pizza place.

[9:25] >> So, if someone's taking a Sbarro pie out

[9:27] of the oven, I don't want them to go

[9:28] home after a long day.

[9:30] >> Just stop talking. I've lost so much

[9:31] respect for you right now. I can't even

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[11:43] Yeehaw!

[11:44] >> What's your Seattle connection?

[11:45] >> Well, I grew up there pretty much from

[11:47] age 10 to 18.

[11:49] >> You were in the middle of Seattle.

[11:51] Where'd you go to high school?

[11:52] >> Juanita High School.

[11:53] >> Oh, Hell yeah. Big K-Town. I went

[11:55] to Northwest.

[11:56] >> Okay, on Capitol Hill.

[11:57] >> I grew up there pretty much from age 10

[11:59] to 18.

[12:01] >> Okay.

[12:01] >> Madison Park, Capitol Hill, Central

[12:03] District,

[12:04] >> Yeah.

[12:04] >> downtown, Pioneer Square, First Hill,

[12:06] like just central area.

[12:07] >> Okay. Kids could get crazy up in there.

[12:10] >> I was one of those crazy kids up in

[12:11] there.

[12:12] >> One thing that's weird about Seattle is

[12:14] cuz I left for a long time and I was in

[12:16] Chicago, then I was in Boston, I was in

[12:17] New York a little while, then I came

[12:18] back for a bit, and it was really uncool

[12:22] at a certain point in time in Seattle, I

[12:24] think in the '90s, to ask what people

[12:27] did.

[12:28] >> Mhm.

[12:28] >> You didn't You didn't go up to someone

[12:30] like at a party and say, "What do you

[12:31] do?" Like that was considered really

[12:33] like gauche.

[12:34] >> So there was no networking.

[12:36] >> Yeah, and it was no It didn't Your

[12:37] personality, your identity is not

[12:39] defined by your occupation. Whereas like

[12:42] in New York, in Chicago, in Boston, very

[12:44] much is. Like, "I'm in law school. I'm a

[12:46] lawyer. I'm a I'm an environmentalist.

[12:48] I'm a I'm an artist." But in Seattle,

[12:52] it's kind of like, "What do you like to

[12:53] do?" Cuz in Seattle, there is a lot of

[12:56] people that are Their careers are

[12:58] secondary. They're there for lifestyle.

[13:00] >> And

[13:01] >> Yeah.

[13:01] >> I used to kind of judge that, but now I

[13:03] think maybe they were right. Like, "Oh,

[13:05] you know, I'm in a bluegrass band and I

[13:07] like to kayak, you know, and I collect,

[13:10] you know, bobblehead dolls or something

[13:13] like that." And that's that's their

[13:15] life. Whatever they do to make money,

[13:17] sell insurance or work at a coffee bar,

[13:19] who cares?

[13:20] >> Yeah, they're not climbing the corporate

[13:21] ladder. They're not obsessed with like

[13:22] the next thing and reaching the next

[13:24] tier in achievement in the career, is

[13:25] that you're are saying?

[13:26] >> Yes, exactly. And And again, I do think

[13:30] that it is a failing in contemporary

[13:32] America that so much of our identity is

[13:35] tied to what we do for a living.

[13:37] >> Yeah, it's why I'm pushing everybody in

[13:39] my generation to go back to rural

[13:41] living. Not fully off the grid

[13:42] homesteading, but like, you know, the

[13:44] cities, the major cities have been

[13:46] gentrified to the point of of, you know,

[13:49] there being like really no cohesion.

[13:50] Like the community has kind of

[13:51] collapsed. It's like a lords and

[13:53] peasants style class structure. Even if

[13:54] you go to like downtown LA, it's just

[13:56] people ordering DoorDash from their

[13:58] studio apartments and going dating

[13:59] online and working to live and just

[14:01] being sad and lonely. So, I always

[14:03] encourage people nowadays to go and like

[14:06] live in the in small towns outside the

[14:08] cities. At least city kids like me. Like

[14:09] right now, I live in a town in the

[14:10] Mojave Desert with 220 people. I pay 400

[14:13] bucks a month in rent. I know everyone

[14:15] in town from the old to the young, and I

[14:17] feel like I'm a part of something.

[14:18] >> Can you say the name of the town?

[14:20] >> I can say that it's in between Palm

[14:23] Springs and Mexicali.

[14:24] >> Okay.

[14:25] >> Yeah. In Mexicali.

[14:26] >> that's some serious desert out there.

[14:28] >> Yeah, but it's like it kind of reminds

[14:29] me of how neighborhoods used to be back

[14:31] in the day. You know, when they didn't

[14:33] constantly always turn over because

[14:34] Amazon moved their corporate campus to

[14:36] where you lived at. When like when you

[14:37] could have a neighborhood where you came

[14:39] back a decade later and it was still the

[14:40] same mom and pop shops. There wasn't

[14:42] this like constant community destruction

[14:44] turnover rent spike thing that you see

[14:46] everywhere.

[14:47] >> You're sounding like a Seattle radical

[14:48] right now.

[14:49] You're You're sounding like you're like

[14:52] you you're going for class warfare.

[14:54] >> I am.

[14:56] >> But it is true and and it's so funny

[14:58] as you say that, I was thinking like

[15:00] DoorDash and like Hinge and Instagram.

[15:05] Like you can have your whole life is on

[15:07] your phone. I'm going to get my food on

[15:08] my phone. I'm going to date on my phone.

[15:10] I'm going to my social life.

[15:11] >> Mhm.

[15:12] >> I'm going to get my entertainment on my

[15:14] phone. I'm going to watch the YouTube.

[15:15] I'm going to watch Channel 5 news or

[15:17] Soul Boom right this.

[15:18] >> Yeah.

[15:18] >> Right?

[15:19] >> That's what they want. They want to

[15:20] engineer

[15:21] single use consumers is kind of a word

[15:23] for it. It was like back in the day why

[15:24] the FBI waged war on hitchhiking in the

[15:26] 70s. J. Edgar Hoover had this campaign

[15:28] called the danger on the side of the

[15:29] road. It was to kind of cast you know,

[15:32] hitchhikers as like you know, homosexual

[15:33] serial killers who was going to get in

[15:35] your car and steal your daughter.

[15:36] >> Yeah.

[15:36] >> Have sex with your dead body behind in

[15:38] the trash forest behind the gas station.

[15:40] >> Oh, wow. You going to

[15:41] >> no, that's what they were saying. It was

[15:42] like you know, that's what J. Edgar

[15:43] Hoover said in a press conference. And

[15:45] uh

[15:46] pretty much the goal was to stop

[15:48] carpooling. It was to increase domestic

[15:50] car sales and to get you know, something

[15:52] Ford could compete with Hyundai and

[15:53] foreign manufacturers.

[15:54] >> Right.

[15:54] >> So nowadays

[15:55] >> a lot more gas, too. I'm sure the

[15:57] petroleum industry was so happy about

[16:00] people not hitchhiking and carpooling.

[16:02] >> 100% and I and I think that like that's

[16:04] what they want nowadays but with

[16:05] everyone to sort of be a consumer who

[16:07] gets all of their essential needs

[16:08] procured through apps on their phone,

[16:11] who doesn't go outside, you know, and

[16:13] who lives terminally online.

[16:15] >> Yeah.

[16:15] >> And doesn't procreate.

[16:16] >> They've talked a lot in the last several

[16:18] years about the attention economy.

[16:20] >> Mhm.

[16:21] >> Of which I think we're both a part of

[16:23] and contributors to.

[16:24] >> We're drug dealers.

[16:25] >> Uh in a way, but I was at a conference

[16:28] recently and there was a speaker and I

[16:29] can't remember his name and he was

[16:31] talking about how really what we're in

[16:33] right now is the intimacy economy. And I

[16:36] thought that was really interesting

[16:37] because people are having relationships

[16:40] with their chat GPTs. I mean I mean a

[16:42] lot of people not That used to be a If

[16:44] you had said that

[16:46] 8 months ago, people would be like, oh,

[16:47] that's fringe weirdos.

[16:49] >> Yeah.

[16:50] >> Right?

[16:50] >> married to it. But in all seriousness, I

[16:53] met a a woman in in my town in Ventura

[16:55] County and she's like, I have a name for

[16:58] my chat GPT and I get up in the morning

[17:00] and I greet it and I ask it questions

[17:03] and I'll ask questions about topics I'm

[17:05] thinking about or about the news and

[17:07] I'll get this and it has a personality

[17:09] and it's it's the it's the movie Her

[17:12] >> God.

[17:12] >> come to life and and this person was

[17:14] talking about how that's that's a form

[17:16] of intimacy.

[17:17] >> Yeah.

[17:18] >> When you think about it like in and

[17:20] dating is intimacy and Instagram and

[17:23] what's going on and you know, whatever

[17:25] social media you're using is like

[17:28] fooling you into thinking that you're

[17:29] being intimate with your device.

[17:31] >> Yeah, I mean I think if we had that

[17:33] technology during COVID we'd be in like

[17:35] a nuclear holocaust. You know, like

[17:37] society would have actually like

[17:40] imploded

[17:41] imploded because you know, it it is sad

[17:43] to see. I just got an offer for a

[17:45] sponsorship for me to a Chinese AI

[17:47] company that actually designs you a

[17:48] girlfriend. You know, it's just for men

[17:50] and cuz you can't technically do that

[17:51] here. Like I asked chat GPT I was like,

[17:53] can we date? You know, it's like like do

[17:55] you actually like me? Do you love me?

[17:57] They're like, no, no, no, I don't. You

[17:58] should go find a human. But I mean once

[18:00] you if you don't have those firewalls in

[18:01] place, it will be like the movie Her

[18:03] times 10,000 cuz there's incels

[18:05] everywhere.

[18:05] >> I lived out in suburban Seattle, but we

[18:07] would take the bus in almost every

[18:10] weekend especially during the summers

[18:12] and we would just wander around downtown

[18:15] Seattle.

[18:15] >> It's fascinating.

[18:16] >> And but we were 12 and 13 and just and

[18:20] our parents would be like, "Oop, have

[18:22] fun. Where are you going?" Seattle

[18:23] Center. We're going to play some video

[18:24] games. But we'd be wandering up and down

[18:26] First Avenue and

[18:27] >> Yeah, for sure. From the market through

[18:29] Belltown. Yeah, get the Grammy over

[18:31] there.

[18:31] >> You get some gritty grimy areas you go

[18:33] to.

[18:33] >> thing about Seattle is like it's super

[18:35] grimy and has a lot of culture, but it's

[18:36] not actually dangerous. So for a

[18:38] 13-year-old delinquent or someone

[18:39] involved in like counterculture, it's

[18:41] perfect cuz you can like, you know, talk

[18:43] to bums and find weed and hang out under

[18:45] bridges without like actually you know,

[18:48] encountering like gang members and

[18:50] >> Yeah, or getting shot in the face or

[18:52] something like that.

[18:53] >> It's a playground for kids who want to

[18:54] get in trouble, but not too much

[18:55] trouble.

[18:56] >> And uh does Seattle claim you as one of

[18:58] their own? Cuz Seattle to me like I'm

[19:00] I'm pretty famous around the the United

[19:03] States, but in Seattle I'm like a god. I

[19:06] feel like there should be a big like

[19:08] sports figures get big murals. I feel

[19:10] like there should be a Rainn Wilson

[19:11] mural in Seattle.

[19:12] >> I definitely would uh support that.

[19:14] >> You would? And Howard, are you are you

[19:16] in the same ilk?

[19:17] >> Yeah, more more so as I'm getting older

[19:19] now. Like Seattle's a real hater city,

[19:20] especially if you grew up in the inner

[19:21] city, it's kind of like a crabs in the

[19:23] bucket mentality. The coolest thing you

[19:24] can do is kind of be like a local who,

[19:26] you know, never leaves and never

[19:27] accomplishes anything and like hates

[19:29] hates gentrifiers, like hates tech bros,

[19:32] works service forever and just like

[19:33] doesn't want to move, kind of like, you

[19:35] know, be a townie. And um I feel like

[19:37] whenever I try to put myself out there

[19:39] at first, people like made fun of me,

[19:40] you know? I was a rapper in high school,

[19:42] they made fun of me then. You know, when

[19:43] I started doing journalism, like no one

[19:45] from Seattle was like, "We believe in

[19:46] you." except for a couple close friends.

[19:47] But it wasn't like I had the community

[19:48] on my back like somebody from LA would.

[19:50] It's just a very supportive city.

[19:52] >> You were you were a white rapper in in

[19:54] in high school?

[19:55] >> I was a I mean, I'm white and I I

[19:56] rapped. I'm still a white rapper at

[19:58] heart.

[19:58] >> Okay.

[19:59] >> But what I'm saying is now that I'm like

[20:00] older, like people from Seattle are

[20:02] stoked on me.

[20:02] >> But at the time when you had that

[20:03] respect, yeah.

[20:04] >> When I was younger, it's like, "Oh, you

[20:05] see him on uh the movies? Do you know he

[20:07] actually like used to like, you know,

[20:08] rap like in Sag Aftra's pants?" You

[20:10] know, I don't know. There's just like

[20:11] random hater I would hear.

[20:13] >> Is that like what they call tall poppy

[20:14] syndrome? Like some the poppy that

[20:17] sticks out above the others gets kind of

[20:18] cut down. Seattle has that a little bit,

[20:20] you think?

[20:21] >> For inner city kids in the immediate

[20:22] years after high school, yeah. But now

[20:24] that it's like 10 years out, I go home

[20:25] and it's like the new generation just

[20:26] knows I'm from there and they're stoked.

[20:28] >> Yeah, got you.

[20:30] You're encouraging your fellow

[20:33] >> countryman.

[20:35] >> Gen What are you Gen

[20:36] You're Gen Z? No, you're millennial.

[20:38] You're still a millennial.

[20:39] >> Gen Z. I'm I was born in '97. So, I'm

[20:40] the oldest Gen Z there is.

[20:43] >> Yeah, the mustache shows shows

[20:46] >> Yes, I do have a kind of a millennial

[20:47] mustache going. I do seem to fit that

[20:49] Ace Hotel Stumptown coffee vibe going.

[20:51] But I am in fact I did grow up on Chief

[20:52] Keef and Lil B. I'm Gen Z.

[20:54] >> It's so Silver Lake.

[20:56] >> Yeah, oh man.

[20:57] >> your heart is in Glendale.

[20:57] >> My heart is in Glendale. My body is in

[21:00] uh the I almost said the name of my

[21:02] town.

[21:03] >> Don't do that.

[21:04] >> But you know what?

[21:05] We're friendly here and we'll edit out

[21:07] whatever the you to get edited out.

[21:09] >> no, it's okay. Yeah, the name

[21:10] >> No, but we will cuz that's how we are.

[21:11] >> I'll give people one more clue as to

[21:13] where I live. It's next to the most

[21:14] contaminated lake in North America.

[21:17] >> I know which one. Can I say it?

[21:19] >> Yeah.

[21:19] >> Salton Sea.

[21:20] >> Yeah.

[21:21] >> Now, there is a collective near the

[21:23] Salton Sea. Have you been there and

[21:25] filmed there? Uh

[21:26] Slab Town?

[21:27] >> Slab City.

[21:28] >> Slab City?

[21:28] >> Yes, yes.

[21:29] >> Slap Town?

[21:31] >> I

[21:31] >> Slap ass.

[21:32] >> Slab City.

[21:33] >> Have you Have you made a Can you make a

[21:35] rap about Slab City?

[21:36] >> Uh I don't have the freestyling ability

[21:38] that I once did, but Slab City's um

[21:41] >> Looking pretty.

[21:43] >> It's a nice place.

[21:44] >> To get a kitty in the in the in the city

[21:46] in Slab City.

[21:46] >> There's a lot of kitties running around.

[21:48] There's a lot of cats and dogs. I saw

[21:49] some lady walking a wooden dog on a

[21:51] leash screaming at the sky there once

[21:54] and that's something that stuck with me.

[21:55] >> Uh have you been to Slab City? Can you

[21:56] tell us about it?

[21:57] >> quite close.

[21:58] >> You live close to it.

[21:59] >> Yeah, let's just say that.

[22:00] >> Cuz it's a crazy collective, right?

[22:02] >> Slab City itself is There is a a

[22:05] collective within Slab City called East

[22:06] Jesus that is kind of like a

[22:08] Burning Man style art group, but Slab

[22:10] City itself has no ne- like you don't

[22:13] have to be a part of a community or

[22:14] collective to move to Slab City.

[22:16] >> Okay, you can just go find a piece of

[22:18] the slab

[22:19] with a with a tent or a camper van or RV

[22:22] or something like that. You have a car.

[22:24] >> your car, bring a tent, set up a

[22:25] generator if you have an RV and you're

[22:27] good to go, but there's no central

[22:28] power, internet, or you know, air

[22:30] conditioning obviously.

[22:30] >> So, you're encouraging your fellow Gen

[22:33] Z'ers to like a back to the land

[22:35] movement.

[22:36] >> Uh specifically to build community

[22:38] outside of the big cities. To to seek to

[22:41] go somewhere where you're not you don't

[22:43] have a gun to your head that is the

[22:44] landlord threatening to evict you. You

[22:46] can actually just uh not have to work a

[22:49] corporate job to facilitate your

[22:50] artistic dream and you can really pay

[22:52] 400 bucks a month and just like figure

[22:54] out how to sell stuff on eBay and pursue

[22:56] what your passion is. That dream is

[22:57] still possible if you don't enter the

[22:59] young professional space. If you don't

[23:01] pursue the coolest, most hip place in

[23:02] the country. If you build something cool

[23:04] outside of the mix, there's so many sick

[23:06] towns that like if you and your friends

[23:08] move to and just get more people to come

[23:10] slowly, they'll be sick as hell.

[23:11] >> some others?

[23:12] >> Well,

[23:14] there's so many.

[23:14] >> Besides Slab City.

[23:15] >> There's a lot of cool ones in Arizona.

[23:17] And like uh

[23:19] in Southeast Arizona, Sierra Vista is

[23:20] pretty cool. I like Nogales, Arizona on

[23:22] the border. I love border towns. I love

[23:24] El Paso.

[23:25] Um there's so many sick ones in the

[23:26] Mojave Desert. You got uh Amboy,

[23:29] Death Valley Junction,

[23:30] uh Yermo.

[23:32] >> Wow.

[23:32] >> Primm is cool. Good Springs in Nevada.

[23:34] Winnemucca, Nevada is great. Elko.

[23:37] Um

[23:38] >> You should be a geographer.

[23:39] >> Yeah, Tonopah, Nevada can be cool, too.

[23:41] Fallon.

[23:42] >> How do you know all this?

[23:43] >> I've been on the road a while. I've been

[23:44] on the road 10 years.

[23:45] >> Apparently. That's a good series to

[23:47] document uh some of these

[23:49] >> Yeah.

[23:49] >> alternative communities. But it's weird.

[23:52] You say alternative communities and it's

[23:53] like oh, that means no one's taking

[23:55] showers and

[23:56] >> think of patchouli oil and no shoes.

[23:58] >> Yeah. Uh but it doesn't have to be that

[24:00] way.

[24:00] >> No, we just live like a normal life. You

[24:02] know, do all the normal stuff. Go to the

[24:04] grocery store.

[24:05] >> I have a job and have a job.

[24:07] >> But at least have the job be somewhat

[24:09] connected to your passion.

[24:11] >> What about food and growing food?

[24:13] >> I don't know how, but I would.

[24:15] >> You would do that if you could?

[24:16] >> Yeah.

[24:17] >> You can't out by the Salton Sea. There's

[24:19] two the the soil's too alkaline.

[24:21] >> I think that if you create some sort of

[24:22] hydroponic setup hydroponic setup, you

[24:25] can grow cucumbers and stuff like in

[24:27] your own garage. I don't really know

[24:28] though. Like I I think food takes too

[24:31] long.

[24:34] I actually grew up in the inner city, so

[24:35] like I had a tomato plant once and that

[24:37] took way too long.

[24:38] >> It takes such a long time.

[24:39] >> you get is like one tomato or a couple

[24:40] of them.

[24:40] >> you can spend and then a squirrel comes

[24:42] along and then eats it and you're like,

[24:44] "That's 8 months down the drain!

[24:46] >> Yeah.

[24:46] >> What the hell?"

[24:47] >> I'd rather just not know where my food

[24:48] comes from and just pay extra for the

[24:50] good stuff. Cage-free eggs.

[24:52] >> We have a a a little bit of land and we

[24:56] have some macadamia nut trees.

[24:57] >> No way.

[24:58] >> And we have some avocado trees. Now, I'm

[25:01] no I'm no farmer, although we do have

[25:03] some pigs.

[25:03] >> Mhm.

[25:04] >> Um which we will not eat. We will

[25:06] cherish. Uh but we have the squirrel

[25:09] infestation

[25:10] >> Mhm.

[25:10] >> from hell. We hired someone to get the

[25:14] squirrels

[25:15] >> Yeah.

[25:15] >> and and the groundhogs. And they've

[25:17] gotten 60 squirrels so far, and they

[25:19] think there's probably another 60 in our

[25:21] land.

[25:22] >> Damn. So, you have more squirrels than

[25:23] the average homeowner.

[25:25] >> Yeah.

[25:26] >> Like two or three times more?

[25:27] >> I I would say 10 to 20 times more.

[25:30] >> So, you got like armed landscapers out

[25:32] there just picking them off with a

[25:34] pellet

[25:34] >> Yeah, and uh my uh the guy bought me a

[25:37] pellet gun.

[25:39] My My handyman Scott, who's been charged

[25:42] with

[25:42] >> Yeah.

[25:43] >> eradicating this population cuz they ate

[25:44] all our avocados.

[25:46] >> Oh, that's actually terrible, man. I'm

[25:47] sorry to hear that.

[25:47] >> And this is what people don't understand

[25:49] and the vegans don't understand. They

[25:50] love their avocado toast, but do you

[25:52] know how many of varmints are killed to

[25:55] bring you one gorgeous avocado?

[25:57] >> Wow, have you laid that hypothetical, or

[25:59] I guess real scenario, down on a vegan

[26:01] before?

[26:01] >> I We're doing it right here and now.

[26:03] We'll see what happens.

[26:04] >> That's a scary group to have after you.

[26:06] >> Yeah.

[26:07] >> Making enemies in the vegan {slash} like

[26:09] PETA space is almost worse than

[26:10] Scientologists. This episode is brought

[26:12] to you by Fetzer. You know, there's this

[26:14] tendency in modern life to believe that

[26:15] every problem has a material solution.

[26:17] More technology, more productivity, more

[26:19] money, more apps reminding you to

[26:21] breathe while you ignore the fact that

[26:23] your soul feels like a raisin. But the

[26:25] folks at the Fetzer Institute believe

[26:27] something deeper. They believe that

[26:29] behind humanity's biggest challenges are

[26:31] spiritual ones. Loneliness, division,

[26:34] disconnection, our inability to see each

[26:36] other, the planet, or even ourselves as

[26:38] sacred. And they're asking a really

[26:40] beautiful question. What if shared

[26:42] flourishing begins with the sacred?

[26:44] Fetzer supports stories, communities,

[26:46] and spiritual solutions from people

[26:48] around the world who are healing

[26:50] division, caring for the Earth, and

[26:51] creating deeper human connection through

[26:54] faith, spirituality, and reverence for

[26:56] love itself. Not dogma, not forcing one

[26:59] belief system, just the radical idea

[27:01] that, "Hey, maybe the soul matters."

[27:04] Honestly, that's a conversation we care

[27:05] deeply about here at SoulBoom. You can

[27:08] explore their spiritual solutions

[27:09] library and learn more at fetzer.org.

[27:13] That's f e t z e r.org. Thanks, Fetzer.

[27:17] >> What kind of hope do you see and what

[27:19] are your, you know, hopes and dreams and

[27:22] encouragement for Gen Z folks moving

[27:25] forward?

[27:26] >> Well, I think there's so much

[27:27] creativity.

[27:29] I think that within 10 years all of the

[27:32] corporate systems that control news

[27:35] media and the distribution of music and

[27:38] movies will be virtually obsolete

[27:41] because there's so much energy with the

[27:43] youth right now and so many

[27:44] outside-the-box ideas and young talent

[27:47] that there's no way that the gatekeepers

[27:49] that are

[27:50] have been just making money off of, you

[27:52] know, creatives and and holding them

[27:54] back for so long will be able to survive

[27:56] this renaissance.

[27:57] >> Mhm.

[27:58] >> You know, and so

[28:00] as far as the state of America and the

[28:02] future of our democracy, not too much

[28:04] hope there.

[28:05] But as far as Gen Z and the people

[28:07] taking back more creative power,

[28:10] I think we're on the way.

[28:12] >> Well, going back to what you're talking

[28:13] about about, you know, creating

[28:15] communities outside of big cities, which

[28:16] I think is is brilliant.

[28:19] I think that from that

[28:21] can be, you know, what if there's five

[28:23] communities in Idaho or Arizona or Iowa

[28:27] or something like that, and they're all

[28:28] getting together and kind of making

[28:30] decisions about governing and kind of

[28:33] working somewhat within the system,

[28:35] somewhat without the system. Obviously,

[28:36] there's going to be a balance there.

[28:38] >> Mhm.

[28:38] >> Cuz as we will rely less and less on a

[28:41] central government to be able to be at

[28:44] all rational

[28:46] >> Mhm.

[28:46] >> or really

[28:47] supportive of its population. No one's

[28:49] in Washington D.C. to be public

[28:51] servants, let's face it.

[28:52] >> that's for sure.

[28:54] >> uh the public servants have to rise up

[28:56] from the grassroots.

[28:57] >> Yeah.

[28:57] >> And perhaps greater and greater

[29:00] community could spread virally from some

[29:03] kind of, you know,

[29:06] collective.

[29:07] >> That sounds awesome. It's almost like a

[29:08] a decentralized network of strong

[29:10] communities.

[29:11] >> Yeah.

[29:11] >> I think that would be great, where

[29:12] everyone gets those base level communal

[29:13] fulfillments in their

[29:15] >> not

[29:15] >> Yeah.

[29:15] >> with guns to take on the government or

[29:17] something like that, but

[29:19] because that's often what people think

[29:21] too.

[29:22] >> Yeah.

[29:23] >> But to no longer be reliant on either

[29:26] the government. I think people people

[29:28] still these days look to Washington D.C.

[29:30] to solve their answers. And there I I

[29:33] see it and this is what I wrote about in

[29:34] Soul Boom as this is just this constant

[29:36] revolving door of like

[29:39] people are so into their partisan

[29:41] politics not realizing the system is

[29:43] cancerous to its core.

[29:45] >> Absolutely.

[29:45] >> They're just like, I'm going all in on

[29:46] this candidate. Oh, they didn't work

[29:48] out. I'm going all in on this candidate.

[29:50] And I think that's what the system wants

[29:51] every two years, every four years to be

[29:55] working for these candidates, to be

[29:56] raising money, millions and millions of

[29:58] dollars are not going to education or

[30:02] health care or agriculture.

[30:03] >> Yeah.

[30:04] >> They're going to candidates, you know,

[30:06] and campaigns and uh I hope that people

[30:10] at some point will just give up on that

[30:13] whole system and start creating a new

[30:14] system.

[30:15] >> Definitely. I think that starting at a

[30:16] local level is pretty good. Like if you

[30:18] vote locally in your town, like you have

[30:20] a say over the bike lane being

[30:22] installed.

[30:22] >> Mhm.

[30:23] >> You have a say over a cool riverfront

[30:25] bike trail being I don't know why I'm

[30:26] using only cycling examples, but you

[30:27] know, you can control the speed limit.

[30:30] You can put a speed bump somewhere if

[30:31] you feel like it's a freaking racetrack.

[30:33] So, like you can make these calls on a

[30:35] small level. It's just people are so

[30:36] zoomed out, you know what I mean? With

[30:38] this like, you know, Vance versus Biden.

[30:42] I don't know, you know, just all these

[30:43] major two-party electoral issues that

[30:45] they forget that you can actually make

[30:47] change in your community. And the

[30:48] smaller the better. Yeah, but yeah, you

[30:50] got to be careful cuz when you say, "I'm

[30:51] having a small decentralized commune in

[30:54] Idaho."

[30:55] >> It's got a Bundy Ranch vibe to it.

[30:56] >> Very much so.

[30:57] >> And there's a couple up there already.

[30:58] >> as I said Idaho, I was like, I shouldn't

[31:00] have said Idaho. That's why I threw Iowa

[31:01] out there. I was like, you know,

[31:03] >> I love Iowa.

[31:04] >> Yeah. I love Iowa.

[31:05] >> It's so great, man.

[31:06] >> It's beautiful.

[31:07] >> Yeah.

[31:07] >> My wife and I,

[31:09] uh, she went to college there in Iowa,

[31:11] University of Iowa for a while, in the

[31:13] writers program. And we were trying to

[31:15] come up with the euphemisms for Iowa.

[31:18] One was why-owa.

[31:20] >> That's good.

[31:21] >> And another one was I-owa, idiots out

[31:23] walking around.

[31:25] >> I mean, it's flat, so

[31:27] you can just keep keep keep on trucking.

[31:29] >> We love you, Iowa.

[31:30] >> What's your favorite city in Iowa? Or

[31:31] town, sorry.

[31:33] >> I I got to go with Iowa City.

[31:34] >> Yeah, you ever been to Algona or Britt

[31:36] or any of those corn towns up top?

[31:37] >> I've never been to the corn towns up

[31:39] top.

[31:39] >> Yeah, they're good.

[31:40] >> Yeah.

[31:40] >> Britt has an annual hobo event, like a

[31:42] hobo gathering, like stick and bindle,

[31:45] vagabond. And then Algona is the town

[31:46] next to it.

[31:48] >> Wait, do do hobos come from all over or

[31:50] do people dress like hobos, like the old

[31:52] Halloween costume?

[31:53] >> Uh, in town, people dress like hobos.

[31:55] But behind town, if you follow the trash

[31:57] fire, you'll find some real hobos.

[31:59] >> Actual hobos come?

[32:00] >> Yeah.

[32:00] >> For the hobo festival?

[32:01] >> Absolutely.

[32:02] >> the idea of a hobo festival that is half

[32:04] hobos

[32:05] >> Yes.

[32:05] >> and half people pretending to be hobos.

[32:07] >> They've actually separated now. They

[32:09] have the hobo gathering and then hobo

[32:11] days. Hobo days is for the posers with

[32:13] the stick and bindle outfits dressed

[32:15] like

[32:15] >> And the hobo gathering is

[32:17] >> Yeah.

[32:17] >> people who actually travel for work and

[32:19] live next to the train tracks.

[32:20] >> Nice.

[32:21] >> Yeah.

[32:21] >> Yeah. And to me, as someone who works a

[32:24] lot in climate change, like

[32:25] climate stuff is something that we have

[32:27] to really be concerned about. And it's

[32:30] And it's it's always posited as, "Oh,

[32:32] these extremists going crazy in their

[32:35] climate stuff." Meanwhile, like El Niño

[32:38] this year is supposed to be the worst

[32:40] it's ever ever been. We're already at

[32:42] the 1.5 degree Celsius threshold heading

[32:45] quickly to two two degrees and it's it's

[32:48] actually worse than the scientists

[32:51] predicted. It's worse than the

[32:53] doomsayers have predicted and we're in

[32:56] this kind of blind denial about it and

[33:00] all this culture it's all about like

[33:02] immigrants taking jobs.

[33:04] >> Yeah, they're taking our jobs.

[33:06] >> And not about stuff that really is going

[33:08] to threaten our jobs.

[33:09] >> Totally.

[33:10] >> Which is drought and flood and fire and

[33:14] extreme heat.

[33:16] >> And you know, some of the communities

[33:17] that are most affected by these climate

[33:18] change issues already are being targeted

[33:20] with data center developments. Like if

[33:22] you look at the Imperial Valley in

[33:23] California, that area between El Centro

[33:26] and Calexico on the border, it's the

[33:28] poorest county, the most unemployed

[33:30] county in the state of California and

[33:32] they have

[33:34] the most consistent droughts. They have

[33:36] the highest temperature, they have the

[33:38] they're constantly running out of water

[33:40] cuz they have to pull it from the Sea of

[33:42] Cortez or the Colorado River. Colorado

[33:44] River's experiencing a drought. They

[33:45] don't have the technology to desalinate

[33:47] the water from the Sea of Cortez and so

[33:49] these people are already having to pay a

[33:50] premium for water in the midst of a

[33:52] worsening drought.

[33:54] And Meta or Google, they won't say who

[33:56] is putting the largest data center in

[33:58] the state right there in the middle of

[34:00] El Centro with little to no pushback

[34:02] because they can dangle the job growth

[34:04] thing in front of these poor people and

[34:06] say, "Hey, how would you like, you know,

[34:07] 4,000 jobs?" And these people don't have

[34:09] jobs. So, the idea of economic growth

[34:12] manufactures consent for the data

[34:14] centers that poison the descendants of

[34:16] those who vote to put them in there. So,

[34:18] it's horrible and it's happening

[34:19] everywhere in Louisiana, every single

[34:21] place.

[34:22] >> Yeah.

[34:22] >> Native reservations.

[34:24] >> yeah.

[34:24] >> The I don't know if you just saw the

[34:27] 1,000 trillion dollar I don't even know

[34:29] if if the word gazillion data center

[34:32] like lease investment that just got

[34:34] announced that they're actually putting

[34:35] in like the largest investment that's

[34:37] not I don't I don't know what is a

[34:38] thousand trillions?

[34:40] >> What yeah, how do you how do you is that

[34:42] a Googleplex? I don't know. Yeah, what's

[34:44] the next number?

[34:45] >> how much they're spending to develop

[34:46] this data center infrastructure just to

[34:48] build LLMs to um

[34:50] ruin everything, ruin art, ruin life.

[34:52] >> Wow, I was doing some research on

[34:56] climate for an essay that I was writing

[34:58] and I was wondering about the the fires

[35:01] and of course a big chunk of my house

[35:02] burned down as people know and then last

[35:04] summer we had to evacuate my cabin up in

[35:06] Oregon because of forest fires and this

[35:09] summer we had to evacuate again because

[35:11] of forest fires.

[35:12] And what I found out is that the driest

[35:15] 20 years over the last 1200 years on the

[35:19] West Coast, the driest 20 years have

[35:22] been the last 20 years. Really?

[35:24] >> Really? So

[35:25] this isn't extremism to be talking about

[35:28] this and now we have fire season but we

[35:30] just acclimate like a frog in boiling

[35:32] water we just acclimate

[35:34] very slowly to this kind of destruction.

[35:37] >> What gives you the most thrill and the

[35:39] most joy about the work that you do in

[35:41] terms of your audience?

[35:43] >> Well, it's one of my favorite quotes is

[35:45] a Hunter S. Thompson quote from I forget

[35:46] what book it's from it's like from one

[35:47] of his interviews and it was like anyone

[35:50] who says they love what they do is

[35:51] lying. They like if you truly love it,

[35:54] it's painful. Like

[35:56] he said it the best I I think the quote

[35:57] was like the most fun thing is the

[36:00] inception of the initial idea and the

[36:02] publication of the product. Everything

[36:04] between is pure pain and that's how I

[36:06] feel. When I think of a video I'm like

[36:08] oh my god you're in love with the idea

[36:09] and it's just like nails on a chalkboard

[36:11] like trying to make it happen like

[36:12] trying to turn this thing

[36:13] >> Yeah.

[36:14] >> brain into something material like a

[36:15] deliverable and then once you put out

[36:17] into the world it's like boom.

[36:18] Everything between then

[36:20] nightmare. Editing nightmare. File

[36:22] storage nightmare. I kind of like

[36:24] interviewing.

[36:26] You you what I mean? Like that's the one

[36:27] part

[36:28] I kind of like.

[36:29] >> I'm so glad we're talking about this

[36:30] because I think a lot of people have

[36:32] misconceptions about that. Like it's

[36:34] like love what you do, do what you love,

[36:36] love what you do. And it's like

[36:38] I'm writing my next book. Like I wrote

[36:40] this book Soul Boom. I'm sorry to keep

[36:42] talking about it, but it's the

[36:44] Soul Boom podcast. So, um when I was

[36:47] finishing it and doing rewrites, I was

[36:48] like I am never

[36:50] doing this again. And I wasn't joking. I

[36:53] wasn't like hypothetically saying that.

[36:55] I was like this is awful. I'm never

[36:58] going through this again.

[36:59] And here I am a few years later writing

[37:01] my next book. But, I've been writing

[37:03] this chapter on consciousness and

[37:07] I'm loving it. And I'm love I'm loving

[37:09] the inception. And yes, it's hard to

[37:11] write, but I can't wait for people to

[37:13] read it cuz I feel like oh, people are

[37:14] going to read this. It's going to blow

[37:16] their minds literally. And I love the

[37:18] way I've structured it and all of the

[37:20] way that it's arcing. And I'm I've I

[37:22] haven't been so jazzed about work that

[37:25] I'm doing in years.

[37:26] >> Yeah, and it's probably cuz you can see

[37:28] the forest through the trees now. You're

[37:30] like oh my god, like it's almost there.

[37:32] We almost have the end product.

[37:33] >> Yeah. And I think that's past I always

[37:35] call it like the 70% mark. When you get

[37:37] past 70% completion, you're like okay,

[37:39] we're almost there. It's going to be

[37:40] fun.

[37:40] >> Yeah, right. Right.

[37:41] >> Between 40 and 70 is the worst. For

[37:44] editing like the that over the hump

[37:45] through the middle it's like Wednesday,

[37:47] the hump day of the week. Like when

[37:48] editing a video or probably writing a

[37:50] book, too. Even writing the intro's fun.

[37:51] First chapter's fun, second chapter's

[37:53] fun, third chapter's fun. You get to the

[37:54] the the nucleus, the core of the

[37:56] and you're like man, anything but this.

[37:58] >> that way about theater. I love the table

[38:00] reads and like kind of getting up on

[38:02] your feet and like playing around with

[38:03] the character. And then there's two or

[38:05] three weeks where it's just hell. It's

[38:07] awful. It's so hard. You're memorizing

[38:10] lines, learning blocking, working with

[38:11] people, trying to figure out what they

[38:14] are going to need and how you're all

[38:15] going to get along. And then performing

[38:18] is a blast. But, there there's there's

[38:21] three weeks of hell thrown into every

[38:23] theater production, which is how I spent

[38:25] the first 15 years of my career.

[38:27] >> That's interesting. So, do you prefer

[38:29] that to being in sitcoms?

[38:31] >> Uh no,

[38:33] >> You don't. You like cameras, sitcoms.

[38:35] >> Cameras are fun and paychecks are are

[38:38] really fun and the hours are easier.

[38:40] It's a lot easier. I do like the

[38:43] challenge of

[38:45] theater, where it is character and

[38:47] language and sweat and it's all

[38:49] immediate and there's an audience right

[38:51] there and uh it's uh

[38:55] it's a high-wire act and it's super

[38:58] super hard, but I feel like at least

[39:00] once a year I need to go back into those

[39:02] waters.

[39:03] >> Yeah, it's kind of like me and

[39:04] hitchhiking.

[39:05] >> Yeah, you

[39:05] >> I feel like if I don't do it at least

[39:06] once a year, I like lose something.

[39:08] >> So, do you do that?

[39:09] >> Yeah, I have to. It's almost like a

[39:11] requirement, you know?

[39:12] Like maybe if I have to get from Phoenix

[39:13] to Flagstaff, instead of renting a car,

[39:15] I'll just be like, "Nah, let me just get

[39:17] a ride."

[39:17] >> Where do you hitchhike? Like on the

[39:19] freeway entrance ramps? Do you Do you

[39:20] have like cardboard sign or And do you

[39:23] Do you try and be very recognizable or

[39:25] do you put on like like a a big hat or

[39:28] or something like that or

[39:30] you know?

[39:30] >> You do it on the shoulder. You do it on

[39:31] the shoulder.

[39:35] >> Like I don't know.

[39:39] >> Okay.

[39:39] >> Well, are you trying to be like, "Hey,

[39:40] I'M ANDREW CALLAHAN"?

[39:44] >> THAT'S THE NUMBER ONE WAY TO NEVER GET

[39:46] PICKED UP. With a Jason mask.

[39:49] That's what the FBI was trying to make

[39:51] hitchhikers like, you know,

[39:53] kind of look like back in the '70s.

[39:55] >> rides?

[39:56] >> Uh you go to the shoulder of an

[39:58] interstate on-ramp. Ideally, with a long

[40:00] shoulder, you know?

[40:01] >> Where there's room for them to

[40:03] >> And you stand maybe with some grass on

[40:05] the side, so you can have somewhere to

[40:07] chill for a bit if you need to recharge

[40:08] or come up with new presentation

[40:10] techniques.

[40:11] >> Do you have an umbrella, a sign?

[40:12] >> No sign.

[40:13] >> Do you hold a $5 bill like, "I'm going

[40:14] to pay for gas"?

[40:15] >> No, you just want to look really

[40:16] clean-cut.

[40:17] >> Yeah.

[40:18] >> You don't want to look like you're

[40:19] >> You're in Slab City.

[40:20] >> Yeah.

[40:21] You want to uh

[40:23] >> Like you don't have a German Shepherd

[40:24] and a machete.

[40:25] >> No, you just wear a collared shirt,

[40:26] smile at people, you know what I mean?

[40:28] And then or sometimes if I'm feeling

[40:30] like really I want to cheat the system,

[40:32] I'll go like this, like there's

[40:33] something bad going on. And then they'll

[40:35] say like what's going on? Are you okay?

[40:38] And I'll be like, I just got to you know

[40:39] get up up the road. And they'll be like,

[40:40] ah whatever, come on.

[40:42] >> Right. Right.

[40:43] >> But yeah, hitchhiking can be scary

[40:44] sometimes.

[40:45] >> see this?

[40:46] >> Yeah.

[40:47] >> You do this.

[40:48] >> Yeah, thumbs up.

[40:49] >> You don't do it like the direction I'm

[40:50] going like you don't like

[40:51] >> No, no, cuz it's pretty obvious where

[40:53] you're going cuz the on-ramp only will

[40:54] go one direction.

[40:55] >> So you just do this. But it's not thumbs

[40:57] up, it's it's thumbs out.

[41:00] Okay.

[41:00] >> If you go like this, people will

[41:01] sometimes people will go like this to

[41:02] you back. Yeah, they'll think you're

[41:04] just on the road giving them

[41:05] encouragement.

[41:05] >> Well, you see this is important. See, I

[41:07] I've never hitchhiked before. So I would

[41:10] have done this and people would have

[41:11] been flashing me right back. Or I'd be

[41:13] like this and they're like, what a tool.

[41:16] Like I'm going this way. Anyone going

[41:18] this way?

[41:20] >> Yeah, I also pick up hitchhikers all the

[41:22] time.

[41:23] >> You do?

[41:23] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have to. It's like

[41:25] my penance.

[41:26] >> And did anything weird ever happen with

[41:29] you picking up a hitchhiker?

[41:30] >> No.

[41:31] Definitely not.

[41:32] >> Did anything ever happen with you being

[41:34] a hitchhiker, anything weird? Kind of

[41:36] >> It's always a little bit weird.

[41:37] >> Yeah.

[41:38] >> Yeah, I mean typically it's the scariest

[41:40] when they don't say much.

[41:42] That's when you really got to that's the

[41:44] red flag. It's typically someone like,

[41:46] oh my god, you're hitchhiking, that's so

[41:47] cool. I've never done that before. That

[41:48] sounds so fun. Where are you coming

[41:49] from?

[41:51] >> When someone just picks you up and

[41:52] they're like, all right, come on.

[41:53] >> Right.

[41:54] >> That's a scary that is a scary thing.

[41:56] You don't want to deal with that. But

[41:57] yeah, there's plenty of I mean every

[41:59] time something weird happens.

[42:01] Or when someone yeah.

[42:02] One time I was in I was hitchhiking and

[42:04] like I didn't realize like a bunch of

[42:05] red ants had got into my backpack while

[42:07] I was sitting on the side of the road.

[42:08] So I got in there and like they kind of

[42:09] all started like breaking out they were

[42:11] breaking containment like the World War

[42:12] Z human volcano out of my backpack. And

[42:15] >> Like Brad Pitt.

[42:16] >> And I was like but the guy like was like

[42:18] a real tough redneck and I was just

[42:20] worried that like if he saw them he

[42:21] would get mad at me. So I was like I I I

[42:23] just drop me off cuz I was so nervous

[42:24] about him seeing the ants.

[42:26] >> Did the ants get in the car?

[42:27] >> They were all over his car. I mean I'm

[42:28] sure that as soon as I left he was like

[42:30] what the hell? I mean there was a lot of

[42:31] ants. It was like I had an anthill

[42:32] living inside of my backpack.

[42:34] >> Favorite guest you've ever interviewed?

[42:37] >> Man.

[42:38] >> Who's the guy with the five on his cheek

[42:40] and the metal teeth?

[42:41] >> Cromag.

[42:42] >> Yeah. He's so great. I love that guy,

[42:44] man.

[42:45] >> My favorite interview I ever did was

[42:46] with a harm reduction worker named

[42:49] Antonio at the end of a Channel 5

[42:52] episode called harm reduction facility.

[42:54] It was about addiction and survival.

[42:57] >> This sounds terrible but what is harm

[42:59] reduction? What do you mean when you say

[43:00] that? I don't know what that means.

[43:02] >> who provide essential services

[43:04] to mostly drug users in places like SF.

[43:07] So

[43:08] >> Yeah.

[43:08] >> Narcan

[43:09] places to sleep food

[43:11] >> Okay.

[43:12] >> recovery services

[43:13] >> Got it. Okay.

[43:14] >> People who work you know hands-on with

[43:15] that population.

[43:16] >> Right.

[43:17] >> Um that was the most impactful but

[43:19] that's like a lesser known one.

[43:21] Yeah, Cromag's up there with like

[43:21] favorite interview guest. He's great.

[43:23] Always a good time.

[43:26] Um yeah, I'm going to I'll give it to

[43:27] I'll give it to C Mag.

[43:29] Although I wish he would stop gang

[43:30] banging so hard.

[43:31] >> He's still He's still at it?

[43:32] >> Yeah, he's in his mid-30s.

[43:34] >> Yeah.

[43:34] >> Not saying that that's bad. If you're

[43:36] watching this Cromag, don't beat me up.

[43:38] Uh

[43:39] >> What else gives you hope right now?

[43:41] We've talked about

[43:42] >> Dogs.

[43:43] >> Okay.

[43:44] >> They know what's going on.

[43:45] >> Yeah.

[43:46] >> Maybe that's a basic answer but you know

[43:48] >> We have this dog this new dog Vigo who's

[43:50] a rescue

[43:51] and he's just so happy all the time. If

[43:54] you come in he's like "Hey!"

[43:56] >> Mhm.

[43:56] >> "Oh my god, you're here!" "I love this

[43:59] guy." And it's just every morning it's

[44:01] just like "Hey!"

[44:02] >> Yeah.

[44:03] >> It's indefatigable positivity.

[44:07] Andrew Callaghan my brother from another

[44:09] mother, my Seattle

[44:11] >> Seattle

[44:11] >> Seattle

[44:13] >> Sonics

[44:14] >> Sonics forever. That's what Seattle guys

[44:16] say when they say goodbye, they go

[44:17] Sonics.

[44:20] >> You're trying to make that happen?

[44:24] >> Soul Boom is also on Spotify video. If

[44:26] you've got Spotify Premium, you can

[44:27] enjoy it free of Spotify ads. If you

[44:30] don't, you'll get even less ads if you

[44:31] hit subscribe to Soul Boom. Also, enjoy

[44:33] on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Pandora, or

[44:36] wherever else you get your stupid

[44:37] podcasts.

Rainn Wilson
AutoreRainn Wilson

Actor and spiritual advocate best known for playing Dwight Schrute on 'The Office,' Wilson blends humor with deep exploration of meaning, purpose, and human connection through Soul…

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Spirituality-practiceDocumentary-journalismGen-z-crisisRural-communityHitchhiking

Hai domande?

Domande frequenti

Callaghan uses 'the road' to describe a spiritual dimension existing outside mainstream American consciousness—a space of hitchhiking, travel, and surrender to the unknown. It operates by its own logic and is guided by 'road gods' like Jack Kerouac and Hunter S. Thompson. If you truly submit to where the road will take you, he argues, it will reward you with everything you're looking for, as long as you talk to everybody and keep an open mind.
Callaghan observes that major cities have been gentrified to the point of social collapse—creating a lords-and-peasants class structure with no real community cohesion. He encourages city kids to relocate to small towns where rent is affordable, social fabric is intact, and they can know their neighbors and feel part of something meaningful. He himself lives in a 220-person Mojave Desert town paying $400/month in rent.
He describes his spiritual experience as being able to film someone's story, absorb their message, and then distribute it to millions—'alchemizing something from out of thin air.' He frames journalism as a form of service-oriented work, which in spiritual traditions is considered worship. The key distinction is work pursued for love and service versus work pursued for money and status.
The intimacy economy refers to AI companionship, parasocial relationships, and algorithmic cultivation of desire that monetize loneliness. Gen Z, having grown up with smartphones and social media as the primary social infrastructure, faces particular vulnerability to mistaking digital connection for genuine intimacy. The antidote Callaghan models is radical offline presence and real community.
As corporations build AI infrastructure to train large language models, they often locate data centers in rural communities, consuming local water supplies and power grids. This is a classic extractive relationship where city-based economies take resources and labor from rural areas while leaving the environmental and social consequences behind for those communities to bear.
Callaghan acknowledges the paradox: pursuing work that feels spiritually aligned doesn't mean freedom—it often means you're more enslaved, because you can't take breaks without guilt or say no without feeling like you're betraying your purpose. The spiritual discipline is real, but it comes with a cost of relentlessness and exhaustion, even though it's preferable to soul-death from misaligned work.
According to the conversation, journalism becomes spiritual when it's pursued in the spirit of service rather than ego or profit. When you meet someone, absorb their story, and then use your platform to distribute that message to millions—inspiring others to pursue their own authentic paths—you're engaging in aligned action, which Wilson's tradition calls 'worship in the eyes of God.'

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