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Inspiration

High Strangeness: Where UFOs, Consciousness and Survival Meet

NT
New Thinking Allowed
Nov 10, 2026
9 min di lettura

Da New Thinking Allowed with Jeffrey Mishlove

Guarda · 6

Start in a hotel room in Las Vegas, where Jeffrey Mishlove and Nick Cook have just come from the Bigelow Institute's essay award ceremony on consciousness survival, and where the conversation turns to a question that has run through Cook's career for decades: do UFO sightings, near-death experiences and a grandmother's haunted attic belong to the same unexplained territory? In this New Thinking Allowed interview, recorded December 3, 2021 and rebooted for 4K, Cook traces how a childhood in an English country house and a shared death experience pulled him away from nuts-and-bolts technology journalism and toward the idea that consciousness is larger than the body, possibly larger than the universe itself. The conversation is a useful map of one researcher's path, and of a framework he uses to hold together physical UAP reports and the psychic and metaphysical strangeness that keeps resurfacing around them.

Lettura · 7 sezioni

Where did Nick Cook's interest in the unexplained begin?

Cook's answer begins with a divorce. His parents separated when he was five, and he and his sister went to live with their grandparents in a large, rambling country house in southeast England, where they stayed for about three years. His grandmother was American. She had crossed the Atlantic to marry his English grandfather in a household that, as Cook put it, was not used to discussing feelings. She was, he said, "a very sort of passionate" woman, and she had an interest in the paranormal.

She was also an insomniac who went up to the attic at night and swept it. While she was alive, the sound of her broom knocking against furniture carried through the house. After she died, that sound returned. Cook's father, an engineer, heard it one night while he was staying to console his father. That, Cook said, was not the strangest thing.

The strangest thing happened at a family argument over the will. Cook's father and grandfather disagreed on a point, and a heavy Victorian lamp that sat on the table between them rose, tilted, wobbled and came back down with a loud thud. Cook was six or seven at the time and learned the story only later, when it passed into family lore.

"There's got to be an awful lot more to our existence than is merely set out by sort of our 3D four-dimensional physics."

— Nick Cook, New Thinking Allowed interview with Jeffrey Mishlove (recorded December 3, 2021), 6:16

What makes the lamp story more than a family anecdote is how Cook describes his father's response. The engineer was intensely curious and set the question of consciousness to one side. His concern was mechanical: how had energy moved from somewhere into that lamp? Cook has carried that question forward, but for him it became the opening wedge rather than the answer.

What is a shared death experience, and why did it change everything?

The second turn came decades later, at a deathbed. In 2014, Cook's mother-in-law died with seven or eight members of her extended family in the room, his wife holding her mother's hand. At the precise moment of death, Cook expected distress. Instead, his wife stood up and announced to everyone that all was well.

Cook was stunned, and he asked her about it later that evening. Her reply stopped him: weren't you there as well? When he asked where, she described a space in which time stopped but stretched without end, in which she was connected to everything and knew everything, a place that felt "more real than real" and was suffused with what she called all-encompassing joyous love. Cook recounted this to Mishlove as an account he had trusted for roughly twenty-five years of marriage, which is precisely why it unsettled him.

"Maybe an hour or two later when we were sitting down and I asked my wife about this... she said to me, weren't you there as well?"

— Nick Cook, New Thinking Allowed interview with Jeffrey Mishlove (recorded December 3, 2021), 8:09

When he looked up what she had described, Cook found the term shared death experience. He calls it the primary inciting event for his move into consciousness research. He needed a way to rationalize what his wife had experienced, and he found that it connected to the account his father had passed down about his grandmother. Two people he trusted, decades apart, had described something that sat outside ordinary physics, and both had come through the same family.

How does a nuts-and-bolts journalist end up at the edge of consciousness?

Cook's professional life was not that of a mystic. For some fifteen years he worked as aerospace and aviation editor of Jane's Defence Weekly, a military affairs journal read by professionals in the defense field. He covered technology at the hardware end: stealth, aircraft and the mechanics of advanced systems. He describes himself as coming from "a very nuts and bolts background," and he has said that this is part of why the consciousness question unsettled him so much. A journalist trained to ask what something weighs and how fast it moves had to take seriously experiences that refused those measurements.

That tension is the throughline of his books. The Hunt for Zero Point: Inside the Classified World of Antigravity Technology takes the hardware seriously, while his parapsychological thriller The Grid is fiction built from the same material. Cook has written twenty fiction and nonfiction titles, and the pattern is consistent: the physical world is treated as real and measurable, and the strange is treated as real too, just harder to pin down.

Is the UFO phenomenon physical, psychic, or both?

This is the central idea of the conversation. Cook describes reality as an interface where our consciousness meets a wider consciousness, and where a great deal of unexplained material shows up. He argues that the survival of consciousness after bodily death manifests there, but so do near-death experiences, out-of-body experiences and remote viewing. In his view, UFO phenomena also reside on this interface.

The UFO case is special because it seems to have two faces. At times, Cook says, the phenomenon takes on a physical aspect, and when it does, you could metaphorically pick up a brick and throw it at the craft, and it would go clang, because in that moment the UFO is real. Cook's brick is the test of hard evidence: the object is solid enough to resist.

"There is another aspect to the UFO phenomenon which is, um, more metaphysical and has, as others have documented, psychic qualities to it."

— Nick Cook, opening exchange of New Thinking Allowed interview with Jeffrey Mishlove (recorded December 3, 2021), 0:00 onward

The second face does not respond to the brick. It belongs to the psychic and metaphysical record, the reports that do not fit a hardware account. Cook's framework lets both faces coexist without forcing one to explain the other. That is a useful discipline for any reader of UAP material: ask which register a claim belongs to before deciding whether it counts as evidence.

The same caution runs through his comments on the field's information environment. Cook has said the material is mixed with a whole range of disinformation, and that the human input behind reports, from the defense and intelligence realm, complicates any clean reading. He also argues that it is important for science to engage with the subject rather than leave it to the margins.

Who was Ted Owens, and what does his story have to do with it?

Mishlove brings his own history into the discussion. He is the author of The Roots of Consciousness, Psi Development Systems and The PK Man, the last of which concerns Ted Owens, a man known as "the PK Man." Mishlove shares stories from his investigation of Owens in the conversation. The thread matters because psychokinesis, the apparent influence of mind on matter, is the same kind of interface question Cook is raising. A lamp that rises without visible means, a broom that sweeps an empty attic, and a claim to move objects by intention all press on one boundary.

Mishlove's credentials give the exchange weight. He hosted and co-produced the original Thinking Allowed public television series between 1986 and 2002, holds a doctorate in parapsychology from the University of California, Berkeley (1980), and was the Grand Prize winner of the 2021 Bigelow Institute essay competition on the best evidence for survival of consciousness after permanent bodily death.

Does the universe itself have a mind?

Cook's most ambitious claim is that the universe is itself conscious. The conversation does not give this a full treatment, and it would be unfair to flatten it into a formula. What is clear is the direction of his thought. If consciousness is the substrate, then the lamp, the attic, the shared death and the UAP are all expressions of one field, and the question is not whether strangeness exists but how it gets through to human perception and into the physical world.

Where to go from here

  • Watch the full New Thinking Allowed conversation with Nick Cook and Jeffrey Mishlove, which includes the family stories in full and the discussion of Ted Owens.
  • Read The Hunt for Zero Point: Inside the Classified World of Antigravity Technology for Cook's hardware-first account of the field.
  • Read The Grid, Cook's parapsychological thriller, for the fiction side of the same questions.
  • Read Mishlove's The PK Man for the Ted Owens investigation, and The Roots of Consciousness for the wider consciousness-research context.
  • Download New Thinking Allowed magazine issue 10 on UFOs and UAP from newthinkingallowed.org, or sign up for the weekly newsletter there for early access to videos and live events.

The strongest lesson in Cook's story is a method rather than a belief. Keep the physical record physical. Keep the psychic record in its own register. And when a family, a deathbed or a sighting refuses to fit either, treat it as data about the interface, not as noise to be filtered out.

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Transcript

[0:00] Our consciousness interacts with a wider

[0:03] consciousness and in this interface a

[0:06] lot of

[0:07] interesting unexplained stuff happens.

[0:12] Um, I think it just so happens that

[0:16] consciousness, the survival of our

[0:18] consciousness post material death, um,

[0:22] manifests on this interface. But I think

[0:25] a range of other phenomena do as well. I

[0:27] mean, there's the near-death experience,

[0:29] there is the out-of-body experience,

[0:31] there's remote viewing.

[0:33] But in terms of the UFO phenomenon,

[0:38] I think that also resides somewhere on

[0:40] this interface in that at times the

[0:44] phenomenon takes on a physical aspect

[0:47] and there are and and and when it takes

[0:50] on that attribute, you could, again

[0:52] metaphorically, pick up a brick, throw

[0:55] it against that UFO, and that brick is

[0:57] going to go clang because in that moment

[0:59] that UFO is real. But there is another

[1:02] aspect to the UFO phenomenon which is,

[1:05] um,

[1:05] more metaphysical and has, as others

[1:09] have documented, um, psychic qualities

[1:12] to it.

[1:13] >> Keep watching to learn more. New

[1:15] Thinking Allowed is presented by the

[1:17] California Institute for Human Science,

[1:20] a fully accredited university offering

[1:23] distant learning graduate degrees that

[1:26] focus on mind, body, and spirit. The

[1:29] topics that we cover here, we are

[1:31] particularly excited to announce new

[1:33] degrees emphasizing parapsychology

[1:37] and the paranormal. Visit their website

[1:39] at c i h s dot e d u. The New Thinking

[1:44] Allowed magazine issue 10 on UFOs and

[1:47] UAP is now ready for free download and

[1:51] you can also order beautiful printed

[1:53] copies. Go to newthinkingallowed.org.

[1:59] For early access to our videos and live

[2:03] stream events, sign up for our free

[2:06] weekly newsletter at new thinking

[2:09] aloud.org.

[2:13] >> Book four in the New Thinking Allowed

[2:15] Dialogue Series is Charles T. Tart, 70

[2:19] Years of Exploring Consciousness and

[2:23] Parapsychology,

[2:25] now available on Amazon.

[2:37] >> [music]

[2:41] >> Thinking Allowed

[2:44] Conversations [music]

[2:45] on the leading edge of knowledge and

[2:47] discovery with psychologist [music]

[2:50] Jeffrey Mishlove.

[2:54] >> [music]

[2:57] >> Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove.

[3:00] Our topic today is high strangeness UFOs

[3:04] and the afterlife. My guest is Nick

[3:08] Cook, who is the author of 20 fiction

[3:11] and non-fiction titles, including The

[3:14] Hunt for Zero Point, Inside the

[3:17] Classified World of Anti-Gravity

[3:20] Technology,

[3:21] as well as a popular parapsychological

[3:24] thriller, The Grid. He is the former

[3:28] aviation editor of Jane's Defence

[3:31] Weekly. This interview was

[3:34] recorded in a hotel room in Las Vegas

[3:38] where the two of us were attending the

[3:40] Bigelow Institute of Consciousness

[3:43] Studies award ceremony for their essay

[3:46] competition.

[3:48] And now I'll switch over to that video.

[3:52] Welcome, Nick. Why don't we start with

[3:54] the story of your grandmother's death?

[3:58] >> My parents divorced when when I was

[4:01] five.

[4:03] And my sister and I moved in to live

[4:07] with my grandparents, who lived in a

[4:09] sort of quite a large rambling

[4:11] country house in the southeast of

[4:13] England.

[4:15] And about

[4:17] halfway through the time we were there,

[4:19] so we were there for about sort of 3

[4:20] years, so maybe an hour a a year and a

[4:22] half into

[4:24] uh our our living with my grandparents,

[4:26] my grandmother sadly died.

[4:29] And she was

[4:31] uh American, so she sort of did the

[4:33] reverse thing. She came over to England

[4:37] um and married my grandfather.

[4:40] Uh

[4:41] quite a sort of stiff upper lip family,

[4:44] not used to discussing feelings, but my

[4:47] grandmother was a very sort of

[4:49] passionate, you know, as you'd expect

[4:51] from um

[4:53] my American cousins.

[4:55] Passionate and and sort of hot-blooded.

[4:58] And she was also actually interested in

[5:01] the paranormal.

[5:02] So, maybe a

[5:04] couple of days after she died, my father

[5:08] came back to console my grandfather

[5:12] at the house.

[5:14] Now, there had been some rather strange

[5:16] goings-on since my grandmother had died.

[5:19] She used to go up to the attic

[5:22] because she couldn't sleep. She was an

[5:23] insomniac. And she would sweep out the

[5:25] attic. And when she'd been alive, you

[5:28] could hear the clack clack clack of her

[5:29] broom

[5:31] um working against pieces of furniture

[5:33] and the sideboard in the attic. And my

[5:36] father was awoken by this one night to

[5:39] hear this going on. But that wasn't the

[5:41] strangest thing. The strangest thing was

[5:44] he and my grandfather were having a

[5:46] discussion about my grandmother's will.

[5:49] And they disagreed on a point.

[5:51] And at that moment, there was a lamp

[5:54] between them, heavy Victorian lamp that

[5:57] lifted up,

[5:59] did a bit of a tilt and a wobble, and

[6:00] then

[6:01] plonk very loudly back down on the table

[6:04] between them again.

[6:06] Now, obviously, I was only, I don't

[6:08] know, six or seven or something when

[6:10] this happened. So, I I I didn't know

[6:12] anything about it at the time.

[6:13] But my father, who was an engineer and

[6:16] quite a rational person,

[6:18] told the family, this sort of got handed

[6:21] down in family lore

[6:24] afterwards, and including to my sister

[6:26] and me. And

[6:28] you know, it's when you get testimony

[6:30] like that from someone you know and

[6:32] trust, as I obviously did with my dad,

[6:35] who was intensely curious about this

[6:37] incident. I mean, he was obviously at

[6:39] very upset at the time that his mother

[6:41] had died.

[6:42] But he always wanted to know how that

[6:46] lamp had got to pick up in the way that

[6:48] it did, how energy had been transferred

[6:51] from somewhere to that lamp.

[6:54] Um and

[6:56] the sort of the whole consciousness

[6:57] aspect of it, he kind of put to one

[7:00] side. But that was really one of those

[7:03] sort of inciting moments in my life when

[7:06] I thought, well, there's got to be an

[7:08] awful lot more to our existence than is

[7:11] merely set out by sort of our 3D

[7:15] four-dimensional physics.

[7:17] Um so, yeah, that was the story of my

[7:20] grandfa- my grandmother and the lamp.

[7:22] >> There were other events in your family

[7:24] as well?

[7:25] >> Definitely, uh there were. Um

[7:29] I mean, more recently,

[7:31] my

[7:33] uh uh

[7:34] my mother-in-law, um who died in 2014,

[7:37] we all of there were

[7:39] maybe seven or eight of us from

[7:42] her extended family who attended um her

[7:45] while she was dying, including my wife.

[7:49] Um and

[7:51] uh my wife was holding her mom's hand.

[7:54] And at the precise moment that my

[7:56] mother-in-law died,

[7:59] uh my wife, instead of

[8:02] uh the reaction that obviously I

[8:04] anticipated, which was that she would be

[8:06] extremely um upset and distressed at

[8:09] this moment as

[8:11] anyone would be.

[8:12] Um

[8:13] she stood up

[8:15] and said, announced to everyone in the

[8:17] room that all is all is well.

[8:20] And we were all a bit Well, everyone was

[8:23] shocked from what was happening in the

[8:24] room anyway.

[8:25] Um but

[8:27] I was stunned. I mean, I thought,

[8:30] why are you saying this? Because your

[8:32] mom, your you know, dear beloved mom has

[8:34] just this second passed away, and yet

[8:37] you're telling the room that all is

[8:39] well.

[8:40] And I suppose maybe an hour or two later

[8:42] when we were sitting down and I asked my

[8:44] wife about this. I said, why did you say

[8:46] this? And she said to me, weren't you

[8:48] there as well?

[8:50] And I went, where? And she went, well,

[8:52] in that space where uh time stopped, but

[8:56] it stretched infinitely. I was connected

[8:59] to everything. I knew everything. This

[9:01] place was more real than real. And it

[9:05] was imbued with a feeling that I can

[9:07] only describe describe as all

[9:09] encompassing

[9:11] joyous love.

[9:13] And I thought,

[9:16] what is this thing that she's

[9:17] describing? Um I came from a very nuts

[9:22] and bolts background. I'm a technology

[9:25] journalist.

[9:26] But I'm a curious person.

[9:28] And I wanted to know

[9:32] how this person whom I trusted,

[9:35] obviously intimately, we'd been

[9:38] at that point, maybe 25 years. Um and I

[9:42] wanted to know what she was talking

[9:44] about. And when I But when I Googled

[9:46] this thing,

[9:47] um I realized that what she was

[9:49] describing was something called a shared

[9:51] death experience.

[9:53] And

[9:55] that was sort of one of the I suppose it

[9:57] was actually the primary inciting thing

[10:01] that made me want to go and research

[10:03] consciousness because I had to try and

[10:08] rationalize

[10:09] what my wife had discovered. And in a

[10:12] sense, that also linked back to my

[10:15] grandmother's experience, you know, this

[10:16] experience of that my dad had told me

[10:18] about

[10:19] um about my grandmother in the lab. So,

[10:21] those two things combined really set me

[10:23] off on this path and this journey.

[10:25] >> I gather that at the same time you were

[10:28] beginning to explore consciousness, you

[10:31] had already had some exposure to the UFO

[10:34] field.

[10:35] >> For some 15 odd years, I had been the

[10:38] aerospace editor of a publication called

[10:40] Jane's Defence Weekly, uh which is a

[10:42] sort of it's a military affairs journal.

[10:45] It's bought by professionals in the

[10:47] field in the defense field, in the

[10:50] intelligence community field as well.

[10:54] It's a really serious publication and I

[10:56] enjoyed writing for it immensely because

[10:57] it got me all over the world. Uh it got

[11:00] me to meet some very interesting people

[11:03] and to pursue my curiosity about, you

[11:06] know, things sort of um

[11:09] interesting technologically, but also

[11:10] kind of secret things, too.

[11:13] So, uh

[11:15] during some of the early years that I

[11:17] was involved in the job, I was

[11:20] particularly involved in uncovering

[11:24] uh for the magazine um stories about

[11:26] very secret defense projects,

[11:28] particularly aerospace projects that

[11:30] were going on in the US.

[11:32] Um where most, if not all of the really

[11:35] interesting technology was to be had, at

[11:38] least the cutting edge technology.

[11:40] Um, some of this

[11:42] technology, particularly to do with

[11:43] technologies like stealth,

[11:46] you know, were highly secret, but also,

[11:48] um, so shrouded in secrecy that some of

[11:51] the things that people said they saw in

[11:53] the skies, particularly in the desert

[11:55] southwest, um, were often mistaken for

[11:58] UFOs.

[11:59] So, in that sense, my nuts and bolts

[12:03] rationalist job in this very serious

[12:06] publication started to cross over into

[12:10] the UFO domain. But, I was very keen to

[12:13] separate out

[12:15] the stuff that you could explain by

[12:18] technology, science, and engineering

[12:21] with the stuff that couldn't be

[12:22] explained in that way.

[12:24] And, I wrote a book, um,

[12:27] about this called The Hunt for Zero

[12:28] Point, which was my attempt to, uh,

[12:33] segregate out the stuff that you could

[12:35] explain by exotic technology, and

[12:38] that, you know, might, I speculated, be

[12:42] to do with a breakthrough in propulsion

[12:44] physics. So, perhaps some new

[12:47] esoteric form of energy and propulsion

[12:52] which would look an awful lot like you a

[12:56] UFO if you were to build one here on

[12:58] Earth.

[12:59] Um, and I think I sort of did that, at

[13:01] least to my curiosity and satisfaction.

[13:03] I was able to, uh, look at terrestrial

[13:07] technology, and ask the question,

[13:11] are what people commonly say are UFOs,

[13:14] could any of that stuff have been built

[13:16] here on Earth in great secrecy? And, I

[13:18] think, unquestionably, some of it could

[13:20] have been. But,

[13:22] to my mind,

[13:24] a there was a significant proportion of

[13:26] sightings that could not be explained by

[13:30] anything that I would remotely describe

[13:32] as rational.

[13:33] And that always left me intrigued.

[13:37] But I had to sort of professionally put

[13:39] it to one side.

[13:41] Until the US Navy comes out through the

[13:45] New York Times, which had a big story in

[13:47] 2017

[13:50] about how the US Navy had been

[13:52] encountering a plethora of UFOs

[13:58] off the west coast and east coast of the

[14:00] US encountered amongst its carrier

[14:03] battle groups. And these sightings were

[14:07] so well documented and so strange that

[14:12] it sort of emboldened me to go, "Look,

[14:15] you know,

[14:16] this stuff really needs to be

[14:18] acknowledged and talked about now." And

[14:20] I felt confident enough post 2017 to

[14:25] really get my teeth into the subject in

[14:27] a way that I had not before.

[14:29] >> Based on your essay in the Bigelow

[14:31] Institute competition, you see a

[14:34] relationship between survival after

[14:37] death and these mysterious UFO sightings

[14:41] and a wide spectrum of other phenomena.

[14:44] >> If I could come at it the other way or

[14:47] another way, which is to go, you know, I

[14:49] spent a long time looking at exotic

[14:51] technology, nuts and bolts technology.

[14:54] And

[14:56] you know, metaphorically giving that a

[14:58] really good kick, you know, kicking the

[14:59] tires of it.

[15:01] And I realized that when I'd done that,

[15:02] I could explain the stuff that had been

[15:04] built on Earth unquestionably.

[15:07] But that

[15:08] that that other category of sightings

[15:11] which defied a rational explanation

[15:14] needed another approach

[15:16] in my opinion. It it couldn't be

[15:19] explained or analyzed critically by

[15:23] looking at it from a sort of nuts and

[15:24] bolts perspective.

[15:26] >> And you're referring to the reports of

[15:28] the Navy that were released in 2017?

[15:32] You don't believe that there's a

[15:33] mechanical explanation for those

[15:36] sightings?

[15:37] >> Well,

[15:38] I'm sort of jumping ahead a little bit

[15:39] here because I think that there are

[15:41] both. I think the phenomenon

[15:44] the UFO phenomenon is

[15:48] in a sense it gets to the heart of my

[15:50] essay.

[15:51] Because what I'm talking about in the

[15:53] essay is what I call an interface where

[15:57] our consciousness

[15:59] interacts with a wider consciousness and

[16:02] in this interface a lot of

[16:05] interesting unexplained stuff happens.

[16:09] Um, I think it just so happens that

[16:13] consciousness, the survival of our

[16:15] consciousness post material death, um,

[16:19] manifests on this interface.

[16:22] But I think a range of other phenomena

[16:23] do as well. I mean there's the

[16:25] near-death experience, there is the

[16:27] out-of-body experience, there's remote

[16:29] viewing.

[16:31] But in terms of the UFO phenomenon,

[16:35] I think that also resides somewhere on

[16:37] this interface in that at times

[16:41] the phenomenon takes on a physical

[16:43] aspect

[16:44] and there are and and and when it takes

[16:47] on that attribute, you could, again

[16:49] metaphorically, pick up a brick, throw

[16:52] it against that UFO, and that brick is

[16:54] going to go clang. Because in that

[16:56] moment that UFO is real.

[16:58] But there is another aspect to the UFO

[17:00] phenomenon which is, um,

[17:03] more metaphysical and has, as others

[17:06] have documented, um, psychic qualities

[17:09] to it.

[17:11] And there is so much high strangeness

[17:13] around the phenomenon when it is in that

[17:15] state

[17:17] that it then takes on another attribute,

[17:20] this non-physical attribute. And so many

[17:24] people have tried to analyze the UFO

[17:26] phenomenon from the nuts and bolts side.

[17:29] I thought the only way that I felt I

[17:32] could make any headway myself was to

[17:34] come at it from the other direction,

[17:36] which was from this metaphysical,

[17:39] consciousness-related

[17:41] aspect, wherein

[17:43] the appearance of other phenomena

[17:46] alongside

[17:48] the

[17:49] uh the UFO itself. To wit,

[17:52] perhaps poltergeist phenomena,

[17:54] to wit, perhaps um

[17:57] instances of uh psychokinesis,

[18:01] uh telepathy, uh even

[18:04] uh strange as it may sound,

[18:07] you know, crypto the appearance of

[18:09] cryptozoological creatures alongside

[18:12] these reported phenomena.

[18:14] All of that seems to

[18:16] uh reside on this spectrum.

[18:18] And so

[18:20] uh

[18:21] that's the direction that I wanted to

[18:23] take a look at it from.

[18:25] >> Out of the blue, at some point, you

[18:27] received a grant from a billionaire to

[18:29] begin to explore this area.

[18:32] >> Yeah, it's extraordinary the way these

[18:35] uh things work because

[18:37] um I

[18:39] after my wife's

[18:42] uh shared death experience with her mom,

[18:44] uh I wanted to um

[18:48] get my teeth into the whole

[18:49] consciousness field.

[18:51] But it wasn't my field. So, sort of

[18:53] professionally, I had no excuse at all

[18:56] to go off and investigate it. Um you

[18:58] know, we've all got to put bread on the

[18:59] table, and my uh profession

[19:02] uh lay elsewhere.

[19:04] But in addition to being

[19:06] a uh non-fiction writer, I occasionally

[19:11] dip into the world of fiction, and I

[19:13] write thrillers.

[19:15] Um I felt that

[19:17] having done a bit of background research

[19:19] on what happened to my wife and her

[19:21] mother-in-law and my mother-in-law, her

[19:23] mom,

[19:24] um this this shared death phenomenon,

[19:27] um

[19:28] I I put some of that research into this

[19:30] thriller, a book that came out in 2019

[19:33] called uh The Grid,

[19:36] which deals with this this aspect.

[19:39] Um

[19:40] But I became so intrigued by it still

[19:43] that I wanted to continue that research,

[19:46] but I had no means

[19:48] legitimately uh to pursue it

[19:50] professionally.

[19:51] But

[19:52] uh

[19:53] I I [laughter] I expressed this ambition

[19:57] through a um

[19:59] a little sort of

[20:01] aphorism mantra that I wrote on my wall

[20:03] at the beginning of 2019,

[20:05] which was I said, "I would like to uh

[20:10] this is a sort of goal for the next year

[20:12] or or the year ahead. I would like to uh

[20:16] work with the world's leading um

[20:20] researchers in the consciousness field."

[20:24] Um

[20:25] and left it at that. I had no means

[20:29] by which to accomplish this or achieve

[20:31] it because it was so outside the field

[20:34] that I had been working in and up to

[20:37] that point. But then, lo and behold,

[20:40] I get this grant from um a a uh a

[20:44] philanthropic

[20:46] um

[20:47] individual who I met, and he said, "Uh I

[20:51] would like

[20:52] to help." But in fact,

[20:54] we've never discussed what my interests

[20:56] were, but somehow he intuited that what

[21:00] I was interested in was this

[21:01] consciousness field, and wanted to put

[21:04] some money towards helping my research

[21:06] it. And that's happened, and and that

[21:08] that is what happened. I got this grant

[21:10] from him to pursue the subject of

[21:12] consciousness for the next 2 years,

[21:15] which ultimately gave me the research

[21:19] material that I put into the Bix essay.

[21:22] >> I know for example along the way you met

[21:24] my good friend Gail Huson, who has been

[21:27] a guest on this channel several times.

[21:30] She's a remarkable individual who

[21:32] recommended to me that we should get

[21:34] together. She thought the world of you.

[21:37] >> Well, I think the world of Gail. She she

[21:40] is

[21:41] Gail is as you know Jeff is she's a

[21:44] shaman.

[21:46] She again

[21:48] shamanism was something way outside my

[21:52] knowledge base.

[21:54] But when I was researching the

[21:58] consciousness field, I was particularly

[22:00] interested to approach

[22:03] the the the field of consciousness from

[22:05] a sort of omnidirectional

[22:08] aspect. So I wanted to

[22:11] I wanted to get in touch with

[22:14] experiences

[22:16] in multidisciplinary realms. So you

[22:19] know, remote viewing, near death

[22:21] experiences, out of body experiences,

[22:24] shamans,

[22:26] channelers, you know, the plethora.

[22:29] And

[22:31] through talking to each of them, I

[22:32] wanted to see whether there were there

[22:34] were any shared characteristics of their

[22:36] experience that might inform the

[22:39] consciousness field as a whole for me.

[22:44] I had no idea how to begin approaching a

[22:47] shaman. I didn't know any.

[22:49] We don't have too many

[22:51] who live around us or lived around us at

[22:53] the time in Southwest London.

[22:55] So I approached Dean Radin

[22:59] because I had a

[23:02] mutual we have a mutual friend and he

[23:05] put me in touch with a range of

[23:06] experiences

[23:08] including Gail Highson.

[23:10] And so through Dean

[23:13] because it came through Dean whose you

[23:15] know reputation in this field is

[23:17] stellar.

[23:18] I knew that in a sense he'd already done

[23:20] the due diligence on these people.

[23:22] I didn't need to check them out to know

[23:25] whether they were reliable or kosher or

[23:27] you know any of that stuff. He

[23:29] Dean had already done that. Um and that

[23:33] was how I met Gail and she was able to

[23:36] tell me you know remarkable things about

[23:37] how she works and her own experiences of

[23:40] shamanism and

[23:42] so

[23:44] thanks to Dean.

[23:45] >> You found some common elements in these

[23:48] diverse areas. Some people might think

[23:51] that shamanism for example is completely

[23:54] separate from UFOs.

[23:56] >> To my satisfaction anyway I was able to

[23:59] find a good many common elements between

[24:01] these experiences.

[24:04] Who include amongst them of course of

[24:06] course those who have experimented with

[24:10] psychedelics. Um

[24:13] you know

[24:14] whether it's LSD or DMT or whatever. Um

[24:17] and

[24:18] what I found I found two striking I mean

[24:22] this is this was a

[24:24] a non-scientific

[24:26] survey. I didn't um

[24:29] I didn't gather the data with the rigor

[24:31] that would be in part that would be

[24:33] approved of in a sort of empirical study

[24:37] but it it passed muster for me that

[24:40] there were a number of commonalities

[24:42] amongst all of these experiences which

[24:45] led to

[24:47] two common things for me that were I

[24:49] mean there were a range of common things

[24:51] but two things stood out when I put when

[24:53] I cross reference the data. One of which

[24:56] was

[24:57] encounters with entities. There were

[25:01] beings, spirit-like beings, entities, I

[25:04] mean, call them what you will,

[25:06] that

[25:07] all of these experiences said they

[25:09] encountered when they were in state,

[25:13] whatever that state

[25:15] was or however they came to be in that

[25:17] state.

[25:18] In Gail's case, it was a shamanistic

[25:21] encounter, but in Eben Alexander's, of

[25:24] course, it was a near-death experience.

[25:27] Um

[25:29] So, that was one interesting point for

[25:30] me. They they had this common point of

[25:33] reference of uh encounters with beings

[25:37] whom they felt to be

[25:39] um

[25:40] uh uh uh

[25:41] consciousnesses in their own right, in

[25:43] that they had

[25:45] uh uh uh

[25:46] their own, if you like,

[25:48] individuality about them and their own

[25:50] individual mode of expression.

[25:53] The second was um a uh a uh uh uh uh

[25:59] an encounter with what they felt was

[26:01] the

[26:02] came under a different range of names.

[26:05] Source,

[26:06] uh

[26:07] the source, a source, the source, the

[26:10] creator, the absolute, um a point of

[26:15] infinite vibration and light

[26:19] that I suppose some might call God.

[26:23] Um and that for me was

[26:26] uh those were the two really interesting

[26:29] points that stood out in this

[26:31] omnidirectional sort of survey that I'd

[26:33] done,

[26:34] which uh told me something deeply

[26:39] numinous about the quality of

[26:40] consciousness, um but which again

[26:44] allowed me to believe that this is a

[26:48] subject that

[26:50] can and should be explored by mainstream

[26:53] science in a way that mainstream science

[26:56] has not to this point perhaps, but I I

[26:59] see signs that it is increasingly

[27:01] engaging in

[27:04] the study of consciousness and a

[27:06] recognition perhaps

[27:08] that consciousness is primary and matter

[27:11] secondary.

[27:13] But, you know, we're not there yet

[27:14] obviously, but I I I feel that there are

[27:16] encouraging signs that the flip may be

[27:20] on its way.

[27:21] >> Let's go back to the UFO sightings

[27:23] reported by the military. Did you in

[27:27] probing those experiences

[27:29] discover numerous qualities there?

[27:33] >> If I can take this back to the report

[27:35] that was commissioned on UFOs by the

[27:38] United States Congress

[27:39] and which appeared

[27:42] in June 2021

[27:45] on the phenomenon. This was delivered by

[27:48] the defense and intelligence community

[27:50] to Congress

[27:52] um as a sort of you know, here's what we

[27:55] know about UFOs or UAP to give them

[27:59] their kind of kosher acronym

[28:01] unidentified aerial phenomena.

[28:06] Many people were disappointed by this

[28:08] report because they said it didn't go

[28:10] far enough to explain what the US

[28:14] defense and intelligence communities

[28:15] knew about UFOs. I happen to think it

[28:18] was a a real breakthrough because it was

[28:20] a real acknowledgement that there is a

[28:21] phenomenon here that needs to be taken

[28:24] seriously.

[28:26] Um

[28:27] in amongst the sort of the the data in a

[28:30] very slimmed down, I think it's a seven

[28:32] page unclassified version of the report.

[28:35] It it it pays heed to a small section of

[28:40] sightings that totally defies

[28:42] explanation.

[28:44] Now, that is the portion that everyone

[28:46] is interested in. It's you know, it's

[28:48] not the bit that you can um um

[28:51] uh

[28:51] possibly uh

[28:53] analyze and dismiss as

[28:56] top secret technology that may be

[28:58] developed by the Russians or the Chinese

[29:00] or whatever. I mean, what people really

[29:02] want to know about is that

[29:04] subset of data that really defies

[29:07] explanation.

[29:08] And with that subset, there is no doubt

[29:12] that

[29:13] uh

[29:13] there are there there there are a range

[29:16] of strange phenomena that accompany the

[29:19] UFO itself.

[29:21] And I think it's because that range of

[29:24] phenomena is so strange, you know, um

[29:28] the researcher Jacques Vallée, whose

[29:30] work is I think exemplary in

[29:34] um detailing what that the just the sort

[29:37] of the strangeness of that phenomena, uh

[29:39] something in fact he dubbed high

[29:40] strangeness,

[29:42] um because that phenomena is so

[29:45] off-putting to people who just want to

[29:48] come up with an answer to the technology

[29:51] of UFOs,

[29:53] they have dismissed it.

[29:55] And they've only analyzed the UFO as a

[29:58] nuts-and-bolts phenomenon itself. And I

[30:01] think that's wrong. I I think because

[30:03] you know, as Jacques Vallée and others

[30:05] have have documented,

[30:07] unfortunately for those who want to um

[30:11] sort of analyze this rationally and

[30:13] critically, uh

[30:15] it it is accompanied by this uh

[30:18] stuff that defies an explanation. And

[30:21] that's very off-putting to people who

[30:24] want to be taken seriously on UFOs as a

[30:28] well, as perhaps

[30:30] you know, the defense and intelligence

[30:31] communities would want to analyze it in

[30:33] the same way that they would analyze a

[30:36] threat

[30:37] from a threat nation.

[30:39] Um

[30:40] and it can't be done like that,

[30:42] unfortunately.

[30:43] >> Can you give an example of high

[30:45] strangeness?

[30:47] >> Well, okay.

[30:48] Uh I'm trying to think of a specific

[30:52] uh UFO case example. I mean, there are

[30:54] so many of them.

[30:55] >> One that was included in the government

[30:57] report?

[30:58] >> Well, the the the the government report

[31:00] in the unclassified version was so

[31:03] watered down that it it all it talked

[31:06] about was a handful of sightings since

[31:11] 2004

[31:13] that it had looked at.

[31:15] Um and of course, as

[31:18] anyone who's ever done any research in

[31:20] the field knows, um the phenomenon, the

[31:24] UFO phenomenon, owes its existence, I

[31:27] mean, it goes way back, but certainly in

[31:29] the modern era, you could say that it's

[31:31] been charted since 1947.

[31:35] >> Mhm.

[31:36] >> When the you know, the the the Kenneth

[31:38] Arnold first sighted what he described

[31:41] as

[31:42] flying objects that looked like saucers

[31:44] skipping over the surface of a pond,

[31:46] which gave rise to the

[31:48] uh the the the the description flying

[31:50] saucer.

[31:51] Um

[31:52] so, since that era, there have been so

[31:55] many sightings. But in the report that

[31:58] was given to Congress,

[32:00] the intelligence community and the

[32:02] defense community said, "We're only

[32:03] going to look back to 2000 to 2004 and

[32:08] analyze data since 2004."

[32:11] Sort of suggesting that that was the

[32:13] only data that was worth looking at.

[32:17] But actually, what that managed to do

[32:20] was obscure the long trail of sightings

[32:24] history going back to 1947, in which

[32:27] there is so much good data, including

[32:31] some pretty scary stuff, ostensibly,

[32:34] which is about how UFOs have

[32:38] consistently

[32:40] interfered with the nuclear deterrent.

[32:44] Um

[32:45] which uh

[32:47] is extremely well documented and has

[32:49] been for a very long time.

[32:51] Um and I suspect probably that is why it

[32:54] has been left out because you do not

[32:57] want to acknowledge, if you are in

[33:00] charge of the nation any national

[33:01] defense, that there are things in your

[33:04] sky which defy rational explanation

[33:08] at least

[33:09] uh explanation uh to your rational mind.

[33:13] >> It seems that nuts and bolts machines,

[33:15] let's say that come from another world

[33:17] somewhere, might well be interested in

[33:20] our nuclear developments here.

[33:23] >> Indeed. And I think that that is a sort

[33:26] of part of this all in that

[33:29] that is one way of looking at it, that

[33:30] you have to, if you are charged with

[33:34] um analysis of something that is

[33:37] appearing in your sky which you can't

[33:39] explain, you have to consider, if this

[33:42] is your job, that it may be a threat. Um

[33:46] on the other hand though, of course, it

[33:48] might not be. If if it is truly esoteric

[33:51] in nature, it may be bound up in all

[33:54] sorts of other things in including, you

[33:56] know,

[33:57] going back to that discussion

[33:59] we were having earlier about, you know,

[34:02] this perceptual interface. If um

[34:06] if if if I am

[34:10] perceiving things in a space that is

[34:12] governed by an aspect of consciousness

[34:15] that is not well understood, it is

[34:17] entirely possible that these things, you

[34:20] know, whether they are

[34:22] ghosts

[34:23] uh uh or

[34:25] UFOs are appearing on this interface, my

[34:28] perceptual interface,

[34:30] um

[34:31] as some manifestation of

[34:35] um, say perhaps, you know, Jung's

[34:37] collective unconscious. Uh, I mean, Jung

[34:40] himself was very interested in the UFO

[34:42] phenomenon and felt that it was both

[34:45] sort of precognitive and reflective in

[34:47] some way, you know, some perhaps some

[34:50] aspect of of

[34:53] of our group mind that is reflected in

[34:56] the way that we perceive things.

[34:58] Um, so

[35:00] yes, there is a nuts and bolts aspect to

[35:02] it, but at the same time, that doesn't

[35:04] explain every aspect of of it, either.

[35:07] >> Speaking personally, I have lots of data

[35:10] that I think would link UFO phenomena to

[35:13] life after death, but I'm just curious

[35:16] as to what data might have been revealed

[35:19] by the US government along these lines.

[35:22] >> I don't think the US government has

[35:24] revealed any data that connects the UFO

[35:27] phenomenon

[35:29] to other aspects of, you know,

[35:32] paranormality or the

[35:35] or consciousness,

[35:37] precisely for that reason. And I think

[35:40] it is because it is, along with everyone

[35:43] else, it is struggling to make uh, those

[35:46] kinds of connections. And were it to

[35:49] make those connections,

[35:52] I think that in their minds, there would

[35:55] be ridicule attached to it, you know,

[35:57] cuz you're starting to veer away from

[36:01] something which has a sort of defense

[36:03] aspect to it, which is nuts and bolts,

[36:05] into this esoteric realm, wherein you

[36:08] make yourself open to criticism that you

[36:11] are, you know, you've quotes lost the

[36:13] plot. You're you're veering into the

[36:15] subject

[36:16] but is, you know, more, uh,

[36:19] commonly explored by religion or

[36:21] philosophy or, you know, and that's not

[36:23] the role of defense or the intelligence

[36:26] community, they would say, and and I

[36:29] think that is why

[36:31] to a lack of progress has been made in

[36:35] the analysis and examination

[36:38] by {quotes} defense-type people of this

[36:42] phenomenon. It's because they're they're

[36:44] looking at it through a very narrow

[36:46] aperture, which is the nuts and bolts

[36:48] aspect of it.

[36:50] >> Do you think they are hiding

[36:51] information?

[36:52] >> Well, inevitably

[36:55] if a government

[36:57] is is analyzing something that it

[36:59] doesn't understand it is going to hide

[37:01] stuff because it doesn't want to display

[37:03] its own ignorance. Um, that exposes a

[37:06] vulnerability uh, in a nation's security

[37:10] or in

[37:11] anyone's security.

[37:13] Um, that is that that's that's a very

[37:15] uncomfortable place to be in if you are

[37:17] charged with national security. So, uh,

[37:21] yes, there is a great deal of secrecy

[37:24] uh, surrounding the subject, but I don't

[37:26] think it's

[37:27] all to do with, you know, what many

[37:30] people believe, which is that

[37:32] it's because, you know, the government

[37:34] is hiding away crashed extraterrestrial

[37:37] craft or because it's got aliens in

[37:39] freezers. I think a lot of it is just to

[37:42] hide its own ignorance, actually.

[37:45] >> I don't know if you're familiar with a

[37:46] book I wrote over 20 years ago around

[37:49] the same time you were working on the

[37:51] hunt for zero point energy, which

[37:54] undoubtedly takes you back to Hal

[37:56] Puthoff's research.

[37:58] I met Hal Puthoff myself in 1976

[38:02] and he dumped a big file into my lap. He

[38:05] said, "Please take it off of my hands.

[38:08] We don't want it here at SRI. It's too

[38:10] controversial."

[38:12] A man who called himself the PK man. He

[38:16] could produce UFO sightings at will and

[38:19] did so.

[38:20] >> And and who was the PK man?

[38:22] >> His name was Ted Owens.

[38:25] >> No, I don't know about that. I I if I

[38:28] Well, I will get the name of your book

[38:30] that book off you after this cuz I'd

[38:31] love to read it. Um yes, I did obviously

[38:35] I I I I know Hal Puthoff. I've met him

[38:38] quite a few times and we've talked about

[38:40] well, predominantly about the zero point

[38:43] energy aspect of his research. Uh

[38:46] we've spoken less about the remote

[38:48] viewing side of his um career. Uh

[38:52] but um

[38:55] in all the realms that he's been

[38:56] involved in,

[38:57] uh yes, there there there are some very

[38:59] interesting things. I I would love to

[39:01] read that.

[39:02] >> If I may, let me share with you one

[39:04] story because I think it is on point. It

[39:07] is the example that you would need to

[39:09] make this connection clear, I think.

[39:12] He, when I first met him, he had a stack

[39:14] of papers this high

[39:17] >> [laughter]

[39:17] >> of demonstrations he had produced. And I

[39:20] noticed several instances in which he

[39:22] said, "I'm going to produce a UFO and

[39:25] you will see it within a certain time

[39:27] and space parameters."

[39:29] And that happened.

[39:31] They were reported in newspapers. And

[39:33] so, I asked him, "Can you do that for

[39:36] me?" It was back in 1976.

[39:40] I had all of Hal Puthoff's files at that

[39:43] point. He was so glad to get it out of

[39:45] his office. I was a graduate student

[39:48] then and just beginning my explorations

[39:51] in parapsychology.

[39:53] So, Ted Owens said, "Yes, I can create

[39:56] three UFO sightings

[39:59] that will occur within a 90-day window

[40:01] within 100 miles of San Francisco."

[40:05] And at one point, he called me up in the

[40:07] middle of this experiment. He was very

[40:10] excited and he said, "Jeffrey, I can

[40:12] feel it coming. This is going to be big.

[40:15] This is going to be a sighting that will

[40:18] be seen by hundreds of people. It will

[40:21] be photographed and a picture will be

[40:23] published on the front page of one of

[40:26] your local newspapers. And three days

[40:30] later, that is exactly what happened.

[40:34] >> Wow. Well, I would have to see that. I

[40:36] I'm I'm not aware of that. I'm

[40:38] particularly interested, of course, if

[40:41] Hal handed that data off to you, and I'd

[40:45] love to read about it because that

[40:46] sounds fascinating. And

[40:49] this So, that, Jeff, is what you're

[40:52] saying is an example of a crossover

[40:54] between the UFO phenomenon and mind.

[40:57] >> Yes.

[40:58] >> How we are able to

[41:00] either project it or reflect it or

[41:04] And I agree, there is that crossover.

[41:06] And it's

[41:08] it's taken on a new form now in

[41:10] something which I'm sure you're aware of

[41:12] called CE5, Close Encounters of the

[41:15] Fifth Kind, wherein experiences invite

[41:19] contact with the phenomenon.

[41:21] I'm not altogether sure it's a good

[41:23] idea, by the way, in all cases, but

[41:25] anyway, that's what they do. And this

[41:28] often elicits encounters with orbs and

[41:32] UFO-like phenomena,

[41:34] uh wherein the phenomenon appears to

[41:37] these experiences when they call for it.

[41:41] So, it is clearly to my mind, and

[41:44] because that is very well documented, by

[41:46] the way, by the way, it's not, you know,

[41:47] often solo experiences who are calling

[41:51] these things down, but you know, they

[41:53] are witnessed by

[41:54] multiple people,

[41:56] that

[41:57] that is that is the crossover. That is

[42:01] another example of how these two

[42:04] apparently separate fields interact. And

[42:08] that's the space that I want to look at

[42:11] next.

[42:12] >> I'll give you another example. It

[42:14] relates even more directly to the

[42:16] question of survival. Ten Owens, a very

[42:19] interesting man, I've written a book

[42:21] about him called The PK Man. It hasn't

[42:24] sold a lot of copies yet, but I do keep

[42:27] talking about it.

[42:28] >> It's going to get one more sale now.

[42:30] >> [laughter]

[42:31] >> He died in 1987.

[42:33] He was living at the time in Fort Ann,

[42:36] New York. A tiny little town. And he was

[42:40] living in a farmhouse outside of town.

[42:42] He said that he had received messages

[42:45] from the UFOs

[42:47] to rendezvous with him there.

[42:49] He produced in my research with him 168

[42:54] demonstrations of psychokinetic

[42:56] phenomena that he claimed were mediated

[42:59] by his contact with he he called them

[43:02] the space intelligences, hyperspace

[43:05] entities who hovered above the earth in

[43:08] an invisible UFO. And he claimed that

[43:11] they had directed him to Fort Ann, New

[43:14] York. That's where he died,

[43:16] incidentally, of sclerosis of the liver.

[43:19] He drank a lot.

[43:20] He was fact he was a very heavy drinker.

[43:23] He seemed to produce a lot of

[43:25] psychokinetic phenomena while

[43:27] enibriated.

[43:29] But before he died, he sent me a number

[43:31] of newspaper clippings showing UFOs

[43:35] appearing around Fort Ann, New York, and

[43:37] also a letter of testimony from his

[43:41] neighbor who claimed that UFOs were

[43:44] hovering right above his farmhouse.

[43:48] And he died shortly thereafter.

[43:51] >> Time and again, you hear this kind of

[43:55] story. And it it it you know, it becomes

[43:57] important.

[43:59] It certainly has become important to me

[44:01] when I've, you know,

[44:03] I've got it from sources that I trust.

[44:05] You know, we we talked at the beginning

[44:06] of all of this about

[44:08] the importance of of of getting [snorts]

[44:10] information at least to begin with when

[44:12] you're exploring this subject from

[44:14] sources that you trust. In my case, it

[44:16] was from my father and from my wife. But

[44:18] in my work as a

[44:22] senior [snorts] editor at Jane's Defense

[44:24] Weekly, you know, I was introduced to

[44:27] for example, not only Hal Puthoff, but

[44:30] Ingo Swann.

[44:32] And Ingo was, you know, if you like, uh

[44:36] one of the other

[44:38] godfathers or fathers of remote viewing

[44:40] alongside Hal.

[44:42] Uh and

[44:43] I had a chance, several chances in fact,

[44:45] to talk to him about his work, which as

[44:48] you know, many people know, was funded

[44:49] by the government for a long time. Um

[44:53] Yeah, and and as a defense journalist

[44:56] myself, I looked for patterns. I In

[44:58] fact, I followed the Woodward and

[45:00] Bernstein mantra of follow the money a

[45:02] lot. And when you've got 15 and plus

[45:05] years of constant funding by the defense

[45:09] and intelligence community into a thing,

[45:11] in this case remote viewing, you know,

[45:13] that's when I sort of sit up and take

[45:15] notice.

[45:16] So,

[45:17] through Hal and through Ingo,

[45:21] uh and actually even through Uri Geller,

[45:24] who I've also met, um who again, he

[45:28] invited me to his home after he'd read

[45:30] The Hunt for Zero Point, and he did the

[45:33] spoon bending thing for me. You know,

[45:36] Uri was again, he was also funded by the

[45:38] CIA to

[45:40] do things. SRI, Stanford Research

[45:43] Institute,

[45:45] analyzed his work. Hal was involved in

[45:47] that. So, you know, these things

[45:50] they all have a very solid

[45:53] uh

[45:54] base to them for me. Um

[45:57] but that's just that's the foundational

[45:59] stuff. You know, I I think if we're

[46:02] going to make progress going forward, we

[46:04] need to look I think it's probably Hal

[46:07] Puthoff who describes it as the frontier

[46:09] of the frontier.

[46:11] And and

[46:13] those that will entail exploring aspects

[46:16] of

[46:17] of consciousness which will be deeply

[46:20] uncomfortable to some areas of science

[46:23] because it will exhibit

[46:27] high strangeness of the kind talked

[46:29] about by Jacques Vallée.

[46:31] >> It seems as if at least

[46:33] since maybe the early 1950s, there was

[46:36] an official policy of the government to

[46:38] try and debunk these high strangeness

[46:41] reports in order to avoid public panic.

[46:44] >> Definitely. And and you know, that has

[46:46] been a part of my work as well. I mean,

[46:48] coming out of

[46:50] the defense journalism realm,

[46:53] you know, you do become acutely aware

[46:56] that not all the information that you

[46:58] get is necessarily the truth or correct.

[47:04] You have to employ a very rigorous

[47:07] filter to try and work out what is truth

[47:10] and what isn't, particularly when you're

[47:12] dealing with

[47:13] aspects of national security.

[47:15] So, yes, the whole UFO field has been

[47:18] ridden with disinformation and as is

[47:21] well documented

[47:23] in the 1950s

[47:25] and 1960s when

[47:28] the CIA amongst others was behind a

[47:30] range of new technology that was

[47:32] appearing in the skies such as the U-2

[47:34] spy plane

[47:36] and the very fast flying A-12 hypersonic

[47:40] aircraft. That

[47:44] that that meant that well, they were

[47:47] aware that the UFO phenomenon was

[47:50] something you could hide this technology

[47:52] behind. And if you mixed up Um, little

[47:56] bit of truth

[47:59] with a whole range of disinformation.

[48:03] You know, you could get some of that

[48:04] stuff to stick and it was a very useful

[48:07] curtain behind which you could

[48:10] hide real secrets and a real technology.

[48:13] So, yeah, you

[48:14] you have to be aware of all of this

[48:16] stuff and I I I think in a way

[48:18] that

[48:20] consciousness itself being a somewhat of

[48:24] being a a highly malleable thing um

[48:27] is

[48:29] prone to um

[48:31] you know, when when you feed all of this

[48:33] disinformation into this interface that

[48:36] you know, I've been trying to

[48:39] um describe and trying to find the words

[48:42] to describe it in my Bigelow essay as

[48:44] well.

[48:45] Um

[48:46] that interface becomes in a sense bent

[48:49] out of shape itself by a range of

[48:54] different inputs. One of those inputs

[48:56] being the human input which is

[48:58] characterized in this case by

[49:01] uh misinformation and disinformation

[49:03] from intelligence communities.

[49:05] >> Nick, where do you think things are

[49:07] going from here? Do you have any sense

[49:10] of the future of this investigation?

[49:14] >> You know, in my own field um

[49:17] so, you know, coming out of that

[49:19] aerospace and defense background

[49:22] um

[49:23] recognizing that

[49:25] huge breakthrough has been made in in

[49:27] the middle of 2021 with this UAP study

[49:31] that was um

[49:33] delivered to Congress by the office of

[49:35] uh

[49:36] uh

[49:38] the defense and intelligence community.

[49:41] that

[49:42] um

[49:43] people are going to sit up and take

[49:44] notice. Sadly,

[49:46] in the defense and intelligence realm,

[49:48] this is now going to be a thing.

[49:51] I regret to have to say that I think

[49:54] there will probably be some form of race

[49:58] to

[49:59] uncover some of the darker aspects of

[50:02] this amongst the great rival block

[50:07] powers. So,

[50:10] China, Russia,

[50:12] the United States,

[50:14] my own country, the UK, and I think

[50:17] others will be racing to try to

[50:19] understand what all of this means. And

[50:22] sadly again, I think there will be a

[50:25] >> [snorts]

[50:26] >> a

[50:27] >> [laughter]

[50:29] >> a prism, a lens that they are going to

[50:31] look through, which is going to see this

[50:34] in terms of

[50:35] weapons technology

[50:37] and advances to be made in the field of

[50:41] intelligence gathering and what have

[50:44] you. I mean, we've

[50:45] we've seen this in the past, of course,

[50:47] with remote viewing.

[50:48] Remote viewing

[50:50] came out of,

[50:52] extraordinary to to acknowledge in in

[50:55] many ways, a race between the Soviet

[50:58] Union as it was then and the United

[51:00] States to gain a sort of psychic upper

[51:04] hand

[51:05] uh

[51:06] between themselves.

[51:07] Um

[51:09] I'm a little fearful that that race now,

[51:12] triggered by this whole new UFO thing,

[51:15] might

[51:17] be a race to acquire technology

[51:20] that would replicate sort of UFO, UAP

[51:24] type uh

[51:27] platforms is the sort of the uh

[51:30] vernacular in in the defense world. Um

[51:34] I think that

[51:37] that is why it's going to be incredibly

[51:39] important for science to get engaged in

[51:41] this.

[51:42] All of science, not just defense

[51:44] science.

[51:46] Um

[51:46] this is a phenomenon that deserves to be

[51:49] understood and it deserves to be made as

[51:52] transparent as possible

[51:54] because I think the last thing that any

[51:56] of us

[51:57] wants is to see a sort of new

[52:00] I don't know what you'd even call it, a

[52:02] sort of esoteric arms race in this area.

[52:06] That is not what it it is about. I

[52:08] think, you know, my own explorations of

[52:10] this subject and perhaps dare I say it,

[52:14] your own too, Jeff. Uh, it certainly

[52:19] shown me that this is a

[52:23] subject that is it is

[52:26] uh, it is not to be suborned by any

[52:30] particular

[52:31] interest groups. You know, consciousness

[52:33] is something that, uh,

[52:38] >> [laughter]

[52:39] >> we need to explore this subject for the

[52:41] greater good.

[52:43] Uh, and I think the greater good of

[52:44] humanity and that is really only going

[52:46] to come through,

[52:47] um,

[52:48] uh, transparency and the whole of

[52:51] science engaging in this because it is

[52:55] so,

[52:56] um, elusive that only by a whole whole

[53:01] of science approach to our trying to

[53:04] understand it, are we going to make any

[53:06] progress in,

[53:07] you know, chipping away at it.

[53:08] >> I have a hypothesis I'd like to share

[53:11] with you. I think the universe itself is

[53:14] conscious.

[53:15] >> Of course, me too.

[53:16] >> And when you, for example, put out the

[53:19] intention that you wanted to meet with

[53:21] the world leaders of consciousness

[53:23] research and then out of the blue you

[53:25] got a two-year grant to do exactly that,

[53:29] I think it was the universe responding

[53:31] to your intention.

[53:33] >> Well, thank you. I I and that is the

[53:35] way, um,

[53:37] funnily enough, I see it as well.

[53:39] Uh,

[53:39] I read uh, and enjoyed hugely in your

[53:44] own Big Ideas essay, the discussion

[53:45] about uh metaphysical realism. Uh the

[53:49] idea that the universe itself is

[53:51] conscious uh

[53:53] and responsive and alive. I have prodded

[53:56] it enough, I hope in a nice way,

[54:00] um but I to know that that is true. You

[54:03] put the intention out there and if the

[54:06] intent intention, I think, aligns with I

[54:09] don't know. Um and I

[54:11] For simplicity's sake, let's call it a

[54:13] greater good. Uh that

[54:16] the universe will respond in that sense.

[54:19] Consciousness will respond. And

[54:24] of course that is

[54:26] unexplained.

[54:27] That is so mysterious that it it can do

[54:31] that.

[54:32] But yet

[54:34] you know, there are enough instances of

[54:36] it. Um

[54:37] In your case, in my case, we all know

[54:40] people who have done that and the

[54:42] universe has in some way responded. Um

[54:45] you know, let's

[54:47] let's test that.

[54:49] Uh in a more widespread way and say,

[54:52] "Look, if you know, uh whole communities

[54:55] can put out that intention. Um I mean,

[54:58] we are at a perilous point in um

[55:02] you know, humanity's evolution. Uh we're

[55:04] faced with

[55:06] existential threats like climate change.

[55:09] Um you know, we seem to have regressed,

[55:11] unfortunately, in a sort of national

[55:12] security setting um to a kind of

[55:15] something that equates to a uh

[55:17] kind of Cold War mentality. Um

[55:21] so, the more that this sort of intention

[55:25] can be put out there to um

[55:29] explore consciousness in a positive way,

[55:31] you know, I think, hopefully, the more

[55:33] the universe will respond uh

[55:37] in a positive way back. So, anyway,

[55:39] that's my hope and, uh, uh, uh,

[55:42] dream for the future.

[55:43] >> Well, Nick Cook, this has been a

[55:46] delightful conversation. It's very

[55:48] exciting for me to have it with someone

[55:51] with your background in the aerospace

[55:53] and defense industries and technology.

[55:56] It adds a whole new layer for me, and I

[55:59] think for the viewers of New Thinking

[56:01] Allowed. Thank you so much for being

[56:04] with me.

[56:05] >> Thank you for having me on.

[56:07] >> And for those of you listening or

[56:09] watching, thank you for being with us.

[56:14] >> [music]

[56:22] [music]

[56:28] [music]

[56:33] [music]

[56:35] >> New Thinking Allowed is presented by the

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Nick Cook's wife described one at her mother's deathbed in 2014, when she announced to the room that all was well at the moment of death. She later described a timeless space in which she was connected to everything and felt a joyous love. Cook found the term shared death experience while trying to make sense of her account.
Cook describes an interface where our consciousness meets a wider consciousness, and where survival after death, near-death and out-of-body experiences, remote viewing and UFO phenomena all appear. He argues the UFO phenomenon has a physical aspect that can be tested, like a brick striking a solid craft, and a metaphysical aspect with psychic qualities.
Ted Owens is the subject of Jeffrey Mishlove's book The PK Man, and Mishlove shares stories from his investigation of him in this conversation. He is known as the PK Man because of his claimed psychokinetic, or mind-over-matter, abilities.
The Hunt for Zero Point: Inside the Classified World of Antigravity Technology is a nonfiction book by Nick Cook, a former aviation editor of Jane's Defence Weekly. It takes a hardware-first look at antigravity technology and the classified world around it.
Cook says two family experiences pushed him there: a heavy lamp that lifted from a table during a dispute over his grandmother's will, and his wife's account of a shared death experience. He had spent about fifteen years as a nuts-and-bolts defense journalist and needed a way to rationalize experiences that refused physical measurement.
Yes, Cook shares his understanding that the universe itself is conscious, as summarized in the video's description. The conversation does not develop this view fully, so it is best read as his stated position rather than a settled framework.

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