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Inspiration

Extreme Magic and YankeePragmatism: The Creative Life

Elizabeth Gilbert
Elizabeth Gilbert
Feb 12, 2016
7 min di lettura
Guarda · 7

At a 2016 author talk in Nashville, Elizabeth Gilbert told the story of a pair of Christian Dior flats that didn't fit. One of the shoes was perfect; the other one caused her pain. She and her friend Ann Packer were shopping, and the sensible voice—the one saying only an idiot would buy shoes that hurt this much—made perfect sense. But Gilbert had already decided. "I'm going to marry them," she said. "We're going to have children and they're going to stop drinking. We're going to be so happy together." Stop blocking my happiness, she told Packer. This was no joke. What Gilbert was demonstrating in that Nashville boutique was the entire creative philosophy she'd spent twelve years thinking about before finally writing it down in her book Big Magic: a marriage of "extreme magical thinking and tremendous Yankee pragmatism"—fairy dust and garden soil, with nothing in the middle. Commitment to something despite its current incompleteness. The stubborn belief that what's yours to do will reshape itself to fit you, if you're willing to do the work.

Lettura · 5 sezioni

Why did it take twelve years to write about creativity?

On stage at the Nashville Public Library's Salon@615 author series, Gilbert sat down with Packer for an extended conversation about Big Magic, which had recently been published. The book was something she'd been thinking about writing every single day for more than a decade. Not procrastinating in the usual sense—she was actively writing other books during this time. But Big Magic kept calling to her, a project she knew she needed to execute but couldn't quite begin.

The gap between living a creative life and being ready to teach others the principles behind it was something she had to close internally first. "I felt like I must have needed to have a few more books under my belt before I believed I had the legitimacy and the chops to sit down and say here's a way that you should do creativity," she explained. This wasn't false modesty. Gilbert had already published her debut story collection Pilgrims in 1996 and, more recently, the cultural phenomenon that is Eat, Pray, Love in 2006. But credibility, in her view, required more than publication. It required proof that the principles actually worked.

So she wrote three more books while thinking about Big Magic, gradually accumulating evidence that her approach to creative life could sustain a career, survive commercial reality, and still feel true. When she finally reread Eat, Pray, Love at the book's ten-year anniversary—specifically to write an introduction for the new edition—she saw her earlier self with fresh eyes. What struck her first was her own privilege. "How it what an incredibly lucky thing to have been able to do, to have spent a year alone traveling," she realized. "That chick is so lucky." That acknowledgment of her earlier fortune, combined with a decade of additional creative work and growth, gave her the foundation she needed. The proof that her way worked.

Is creativity magic, hard work, or both?

The answer, according to Gilbert, is both—but not as a compromise. "A combination of extreme magical thinking and tremendous Yankee pragmatism," she called it. "Fairy dust and garden soil. Nothing in the middle." The magic is real. It's the belief that ideas are alive, that inspiration is external and available, that the universe has a vested interest in your creative work. It's committing to the shoes even though they hurt right now because you genuinely believe you and those shoes are meant to be together.

The pragmatism is just as real. It's the chipping away. The daily work. The refusal to treat creative obstacles as destiny. When Packer asked about the work required, Gilbert was direct: "If it's not for you, don't [do it]" isn't her advice. Her advice is to do it anyway, but to "do the hard work of chipping away." The shoes hurt now, but if you marry them, you're committing to the marriage. You're doing the actual labor that makes the relationship work.

This isn't new-age thinking with the hard edges sanded off. It's not positive thinking that ignores difficulty. It's practical mysticism—the kind a working artist actually needs to survive. The magic sustains you through the difficult parts. The pragmatism gets you to the desk, the studio, the page on the days when magic feels very far away. One without the other fails. Magic without pragmatism is just dreaming. Pragmatism without magic is just drudgery.

What obstacles are real, and which ones are excuses?

One of the most crucial moments in the talk came when Gilbert addressed the most common refrain she hears from people who want to create but don't. "Well, if I had the time, if I had this, if I had that." These aren't obstacles. They're fantasies. The time isn't coming. That promotion won't materialize to free up your schedule. You won't suddenly inherit money for a writing retreat. These are stories we tell ourselves that let us off the hook.

The real obstacles—the ones worth discussing, the ones that demand creative solutions—are different. They're the ones you actually hit when you show up. The rejection. The failed first drafts. The market that doesn't seem to want what you're making. The inside critics. The doubt that comes when you realize you're in this for real. Real obstacles only appear when you show up and actually begin.

What separates a person who makes things from a person who just thinks about making things is precisely this: the willingness to separate the real problems from the imaginary ones, and then to do the hard work anyway. The shoes might hurt. That's a real problem. The solution isn't to avoid the shoes. The solution is to wear them and trust that they'll stretch, that your feet will adjust, that the pairing was meant to be.

Can you really separate art from commerce?

Gilbert was clear about something that many creative people resist: you cannot. "You can't divorce the commercial aspect" of creative work, she said. This isn't a compromise to some pure artistic ideal. It's a basic fact of operating in the world. Your work needs to feed you. It needs an audience. It needs to find a way to matter to other people, not just to you.

The magical thinking actually helps here. If you genuinely believe your work matters—if you're committed to it the way you'd commit to those Dior flats—then you're willing to do the work of getting it into the world. That work includes all the parts that aren't pure inspiration. The networking. The query letters. The business of it. These aren't selling out. They're the Yankee pragmatism part of the equation. They're how you marry magic and reality.

Packer had noted something that struck her in rereading Gilbert's earlier work: how desperate Gilbert had been at the beginning of Eat, Pray, Love. How much deep sadness was layered into that starting place. "Ten years of happiness," Packer said, "will erase that deep sadness." But Gilbert had needed to live through that erasure, to write through that re-discovery, to prove to herself that happiness could follow desperation. That's the timeline a book like Big Magic requires. You can't shortcut it.

Where to go from here

The talk ended with Packer and Gilbert singing together—a reminder that creative work is also about connection, about the joy of making something in the presence of others who care about the work. They led the audience through a simple song with only three notes. No training required. No previous experience necessary. Just the willingness to make sound together.

If you're sitting with creative work that hasn't happened yet, Gilbert's framework offers permission to stop waiting for the right conditions. The time won't appear. The clarity won't arrive fully formed. But the work can start now, with both the magical belief that this is yours to do and the practical knowledge that it will require chipping away. The shoes might hurt for a while. That's okay. You married them anyway, and you meant it. You're in this for the long game, and that commitment is already half the work.

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Transcript

[0:03] [Music]

[0:16] [Applause]

[0:21] That's a plush chair.

[0:23] It is. Oh, wow. Yeah, you do. You go

[0:25] right all the way back.

[0:29] I have a cord. You have the cordless.

[0:31] Um

[0:32] Oh, that's good because I'll be singing

[0:33] and dancing. Um uh I have a one thank

[0:37] you that I have to Is Lily here who

[0:39] makes Borched?

[0:41] I would.

[0:42] It was so good.

[0:44] Thank you so much. Thank you to Lily for

[0:46] the B. She fed me last night normal

[0:48] people borched, which is she had two

[0:50] kinds. One vegetarian and one called

[0:51] normal people. I had the normal people

[0:54] one.

[0:55] Liz was normal other person.

[0:57] Really important.

[0:58] But thank you. That was amazing. I had

[0:59] to personally thank you for that. Um all

[1:02] right. Hi.

[1:03] Hi. So, here we are in Hume Fog. One of

[1:06] my very favorite places to be. I love

[1:08] this school and I love this auditorium.

[1:10] Um, and I love you.

[1:13] I love you, Ann.

[1:14] Um, we we have been friends for a really

[1:16] long time. And this is how writer

[1:19] friends get to see one another. They

[1:21] agreed to interview one another on stage

[1:24] and and then we get to talk.

[1:26] It's the only way we've ever seen each

[1:27] other.

[1:28] It's it's literally the only I think it

[1:30] is. I I think there was once but I think

[1:33] certainly three or four times we've

[1:35] managed to arrange this so that we can

[1:36] spend some time together.

[1:37] Yeah, it's crazy.

[1:38] Can I want to start out I actually I

[1:41] have questions that I wrote and I read

[1:43] them over and they're they're great.

[1:44] They're really good questions. Um

[1:47] Ann, you wrote them. Of course they're

[1:49] great. I know I'm brilliant

[1:51] award-winning questions.

[1:53] But I want to tell a story from our day

[1:56] today because it was particularly

[1:58] fantastic. Liz came in last night and we

[2:02] had a whole day together today with our

[2:04] friend Jane Hamilton who is also here

[2:06] and which was even more amazing and we

[2:10] went to UL to go shopping. I only go I

[2:13] went to the Parthonon and U two places I

[2:15] only go when I have out of town guests

[2:18] and Liz found a pair of shoes. They are

[2:22] not those shoes. They were equally

[2:25] amazing Christian Dior flats that were

[2:28] about 10% of what they had once cost.

[2:32] So, they were so beautiful I was licking

[2:33] them in the store. Um, and the only

[2:36] problem with these unspeakably beautiful

[2:40] Christian Dior shoes is that they didn't

[2:42] fit her. And uh,

[2:45] one one of them did

[2:46] one shoe fit fine

[2:49] and the other one caused her exceeding

[2:51] pain. And uh we were in UAL as one is

[2:54] for quite a long time and she was

[2:57] wearing them the whole time and one shoe

[2:59] she kept saying it felt so good and the

[3:01] other one hurt just so much.

[3:03] And I said well of course you wouldn't

[3:05] buy them. Only an idiot would buy shoes

[3:08] that hurt that much. And you said

[3:12] I said of course I'm going to buy them.

[3:13] And you said you're in denial about

[3:15] these shoes. They don't fit you. I said

[3:17] first of all only one needs to fit for

[3:19] the shoes to fit. Secondly, did you see

[3:22] the price? And thirdly, I'm not in

[3:24] denial. They're perfect for me. I'm

[3:26] going to marry them. We're going to have

[3:28] children and they're going to stop

[3:29] drinking.

[3:33] We're going to be so happy together.

[3:36] Stop blocking my happiness that's

[3:38] waiting for me with these shoes.

[3:41] I really had I all day long I thought

[3:44] this is what it means to be a woman to,

[3:47] you know, to think the it's not working

[3:49] now.

[3:50] No, no, no. It's going to be fine. It's

[3:51] going to be fine.

[3:52] We're going to work it out.

[3:54] We're meant to be together and we'll

[3:57] work it out after I buy them and after

[3:59] we get married, we'll fix everything.

[4:04] So, you wrote Eat, Pray, Love. Did you

[4:08] ever read it?

[4:09] Oh, do you know what? I just read it. I

[4:11] just read it um because it's the 10 year

[4:14] anniversary. Can you believe that? In a

[4:15] decade. Um in January.

[4:18] Serious. Yeah. And so Riverhead is

[4:22] putting out a 10-y year anniversary

[4:24] edition of E Pray Love and they asked me

[4:25] to write the introduction. I thought I

[4:27] should probably I should probably read

[4:29] it again. Um and do you know I first of

[4:33] all I liked it. It's a good book.

[4:35] It's a good book.

[4:36] Um and

[4:38] although I haven't read it in 10 years,

[4:39] the thing that struck struck me about

[4:41] it, there were a few things that struck

[4:42] me. one, how it what an incredibly lucky

[4:47] thing to have been able to do, to have

[4:49] spent a year alone traveling. What an

[4:51] amazing thing to have been able to do.

[4:53] As I was reading along, I was like,

[4:54] "That chick is so [ __ ] lucky." Oh,

[4:57] sorry. I know we're in school, but I was

[4:59] like and I got suddenly it honestly for

[5:02] the first time it sunk into me the

[5:04] criticism of people of entitlement and I

[5:07] was like I agree that was a very

[5:09] fortunate human being who got to do

[5:11] that. Um, the other thing that I had

[5:13] forgotten was how desperately sad I was

[5:15] at the beginning of that story. Um,

[5:16] because it ended so well

[5:19] that I had sort of erased the deep deep

[5:22] deep sadness from and 10 years of

[5:24] happiness. We'll do that.

[5:25] We'll do that. We'll erase that deep

[5:27] sadness. Thi this is so interesting to

[5:29] me because I've never read one of my

[5:31] books and I'm wondering, have you read

[5:34] your other books? And by which I mean

[5:37] you read them 30 times as you're

[5:40] finishing and editing copy editing and

[5:42] but when a book gets to the point where

[5:43] I can't change something I never read it

[5:46] again.

[5:46] Right.

[5:47] So have you read

[5:47] after the first GS you never read it

[5:49] again?

[5:49] No. No never.

[5:50] I don't think I ever have either. I

[5:51] think E Pray Love is probably the first

[5:53] book I sat down and and I thought I

[5:54] would just skim it but then I I got sort

[5:56] of interested in I wanted to see what

[5:59] happened.

[5:59] No, I can really see that. That's that's

[6:02] fantastic.

[6:02] Is she going to make out with Javanni or

[6:04] not? I wanted to know. Um, but I have to

[6:07] say and I am a Liz Gilbert completist.

[6:10] I've read and really truly loved all of

[6:12] your books and one of the books of yours

[6:14] that I think about the most is Pilgrims,

[6:16] which is your first book.

[6:17] You always say that. That's love that

[6:19] book. That is a genius book. I think

[6:21] that is

[6:23] I will go so far as to say it is up

[6:25] there with nine stories for me in terms

[6:27] of being a perfect and well-balanced

[6:30] collection. And I so often think of a

[6:32] story in that book as if it was a story

[6:35] someone had told me.

[6:36] But have you ever read it?

[6:39] No, I've never read it. Um, what year

[6:41] did you publish it?

[6:44] 1997.

[6:47] 1996 or seven, I think. Um, you should

[6:50] ask them to have a 20-y year anniversary

[6:52] edition of that book because that would

[6:54] be astonishing to bring that back into

[6:56] the bright light of the

[6:58] public is clamoring for it. Clamor,

[7:00] clamor, clamor

[7:01] because, you know, if we did a 20-y year

[7:04] anniversary, we could sell another

[7:06] thousand copies of it,

[7:08] which should be amazing. Um, would

[7:11] double our lifetime sales of Pilgrims.

[7:14] Um,

[7:15] you know, I think that people might look

[7:17] at it differently now. Maybe, maybe it

[7:19] could, it could very well be.

[7:21] Tell just go ahead so I can ask you

[7:23] these questions. Okay. Give us an

[7:25] overview because you guys got the book

[7:28] to come in here. So, I'm assuming a lot

[7:30] of you haven't read the book yet. I'm

[7:31] sure some of you have, but just explain

[7:34] briefly what Big Magic is all about.

[7:36] Okay. So, Big Magic is a book that I've

[7:38] been thinking about writing for 12

[7:39] years. And when I say thinking about

[7:41] writing, I mean every single day

[7:42] thinking about a book that I wanted to

[7:44] write about creativity. Um, I've been

[7:46] living by the principles of that book my

[7:49] entire life. Um, so it really is sort of

[7:51] my central manifesto about creativity,

[7:54] which I would say is a a combination of

[7:57] extreme magical thinking and tremendous

[8:01] Yankee pragmatism. Um, so it's fairy

[8:03] dust and it's garden soil. Um, sort of

[8:06] at this there's nothing in the middle.

[8:09] It's all either way up here or or way

[8:11] down there. And I think the reason it

[8:13] took me this long to write it is because

[8:15] I feel like I I must have felt that I

[8:18] needed to have a few more books under my

[8:20] belt before I believed I had the

[8:22] legitimacy and the chops to sit down and

[8:25] say here's a way that you should do

[8:26] creativity. I think I must have needed

[8:27] to feel I had to prove something more to

[8:29] myself. So I wrote three books in the

[8:31] time that I was thinking about writing

[8:32] this book. And the other reason I didn't

[8:34] write it was because I couldn't figure

[8:35] out how to how to write it. I wasn't

[8:36] sure if it should be a very heavily

[8:39] researched academic treaties. Most of my

[8:41] books are very heavily researched. And

[8:43] so I spent years collecting hundreds of

[8:47] books about every aspect of creativity,

[8:49] the neurobiology of creativity and the

[8:51] psychology of creativity and the history

[8:52] of creativity and gender and creativity

[8:54] and creativity and suicide and

[8:56] creativity and alcoholism and creativity

[8:58] and culture. And I looked at that whole

[9:00] shelf of books one day and thought, if I

[9:01] have to read even one of these books,

[9:03] I'm going to kill myself. I can't even I

[9:06] don't care. Um, and I'm proud to say

[9:09] there is not a single fact in Big Magic.

[9:11] Um, it is a factfree book. Um,

[9:16] so I think you can either say it's

[9:19] completely unressearched or you can say

[9:20] the research has been the 25 years I've

[9:22] been living by the principles that I put

[9:24] forth in this book. Um, and then I

[9:26] finally, you know what it was is

[9:27] Facebook. It was three, four, how many

[9:30] people here do I know from my Facebook

[9:31] page?

[9:34] Sweeties. Um, I love us on that page. I

[9:38] do. And and it's a really big part of my

[9:41] life and my day sort of talking on that

[9:43] page with with all of you. And and you

[9:45] may some of you may remember that two

[9:47] years ago I put a notice up and I said,

[9:48] I'm about to start writing this book on

[9:50] creativity. Um, if you are not living a

[9:53] out any sort of creativity in your life

[9:55] right now, tell me why you aren't. Let

[9:57] me hear all the problems, all the

[9:58] obstacles so that I can discuss them

[10:00] all. And then many of you wrote very

[10:02] long like legal lists very intricately

[10:06] of all the obstacles and all the

[10:07] problems and all the details. And I read

[10:10] every single one of those comments very

[10:11] carefully. And honest to God, all I saw

[10:14] in Invisible Ink through all the reasons

[10:16] and the obstacles was fear. Just a huge

[10:19] amount of fear. And so that became the

[10:21] central topic of the book. Um, let's

[10:23] talk about creativity and fear and how

[10:25] to get around it and through it and over

[10:27] it and under it in order to be able to

[10:29] bring forth the treasures that are

[10:31] hidden within you that I can only assume

[10:32] are. So, okay. Uh, one thing that you

[10:35] just said, you said this is how you

[10:37] should,

[10:38] you know, I'm I wrote this book so I can

[10:40] tell you this is how you should

[10:42] live a creative life. Do you mean that?

[10:44] I do.

[10:45] Not this is how you can or this is one

[10:47] option.

[10:48] I talk a lot of smack in there about

[10:49] how, hey, if it's not for you, don't

[10:51] worry. But I actually mean you should do

[10:53] this this way.

[10:54] Um I really do.

[10:55] I know. I And I respect that.

[10:56] I really do. And that's why I'm not

[10:58] afraid to call it a self-help book

[10:59] because I am. It's the first time where

[11:01] I feel like I'm putting myself out there

[11:03] in a way saying I'm going to speak as an

[11:05] expert about this because people often

[11:08] come to me with questions that are so

[11:09] above my pay grade um that I really

[11:12] can't. I mean, I want to help and be

[11:14] there, but I don't know how to advise

[11:16] people about problems with their

[11:17] children because I'm not a mother and I

[11:19] don't know how to talk about women in

[11:20] the workforce, in the corporate world,

[11:21] because I've never worked in the

[11:22] corporate world. And I there's a million

[11:25] things that people bring me that are

[11:26] really serious questions where I just

[11:28] think, I don't know, but I know you can

[11:29] get through it. Like, that's usually my

[11:31] answer. And but if you want to talk

[11:33] about creativity, that's a place where I

[11:35] feel very confident to say, okay, let me

[11:39] tell you what to do. And um and it's

[11:41] probably the only place I can't even

[11:43] even meditation spirituality people come

[11:45] to me with those questions and I'm like

[11:47] I have the sketchiest lamest meditation

[11:49] practice if I you know I'm not the

[11:52] person to ask go talk to pim showed

[11:54] about this. Um, but this subject I feel

[11:57] like this is what I do and I do it in a

[11:59] way that is very pleasurable and very

[12:03] generative and very enjoy. Like it's

[12:07] just full of joy and work at the same

[12:09] time. Um, so I thought, yeah, what if I

[12:12] just throw down and say this is how you

[12:15] guys have to do your creativity, all of

[12:17] you. I mean, you might as well say it

[12:19] because people either will or won't, you

[12:21] know. Um, but yeah, I kind of secretly

[12:24] wish people would do it this way. Not so

[12:26] secretly now that we've said it here in

[12:27] the auditorium.

[12:29] So, let me instill a little fear in the

[12:31] audience. Um, right at the beginning,

[12:33] you have a Jack Gilbert quote. Jack

[12:35] Gilbert being the poet who has no

[12:37] relation to Liz Gilbert, although they

[12:39] had

[12:40] spiritually

[12:40] they had spiritual overlap and they

[12:42] almost shared an office. So, the quote

[12:44] is, "Do you have the courage to bring

[12:46] forth the treasures that are hidden

[12:48] within you?"

[12:50] to which I would say that's a really

[12:53] great point of fear, right? Do you have

[12:55] the do you have the courage to go down?

[12:57] To me, when I read that quote, what I

[13:00] think is the reason if you're afraid,

[13:02] you're afraid to go down there to find

[13:04] out that in fact there are not really

[13:06] jewels there. There may be some

[13:08] rhinestones or little lumps of coal or

[13:11] something. But what if you spend your

[13:13] life feeling good about yourself because

[13:15] you feel like a really creative person,

[13:18] but if you had the courage to sit down

[13:20] and really do the hard work of chipping

[13:23] those jewels out and you find out not so

[13:26] great. Well, you know, I like

[13:28] rhinestones and lumps of coal. Truly,

[13:32] I'm really interested in them. And

[13:35] somebody said to me, I think it was an

[13:36] NPR interviewer said, "Aren't you afraid

[13:39] that your book is just going to

[13:40] encourage more talentless people to make

[13:42] more bad art?" Which is a very like

[13:46] harsh

[13:46] That is what I'm asking.

[13:48] That's what you're asking, but you're

[13:49] asking it in a in a nicer way.

[13:51] In a nicer way.

[13:51] You're asking it in a nicer way. And I

[13:53] will tell you as a populist which is

[13:55] what I am and as somebody who's

[13:58] interested in people people becoming

[14:02] people in the process of becoming people

[14:04] in the process of search people in the

[14:06] study of themselves people as my guru in

[14:09] India used to say becoming a scientist

[14:11] of their own experience right I think

[14:12] there's nothing more interesting you can

[14:14] do with your life than that so for me

[14:16] coming from that aspect of it my issue

[14:20] with the world is not that there's too

[14:22] much bad art in it. My issue with the

[14:24] world is that there are millions and

[14:25] millions and millions of people who

[14:27] aren't making anything at all because

[14:30] they've been told that they don't have

[14:32] anything to say or to share or to do or

[14:34] because they're afraid there's no point

[14:36] in it or because there's afraid that

[14:38] they're afraid that they can't they

[14:39] can't divorce the commercial aspect of

[14:41] it and so they think well I'm never

[14:43] going to make a living out so why in the

[14:44] world would I do this? What other

[14:45] purpose would you possibly have for

[14:47] making a thing that possibly nobody

[14:48] wants? You know, those are the issues

[14:50] that I'm much more interested in than I,

[14:52] you know, this is why I'm not a critic.

[14:53] This is why I'm not a teacher even

[14:55] because it's not a comfortable position

[14:58] for me to sit around saying this person

[15:00] is talented, this person isn't. You've

[15:02] got nothing. Skip it. You have something

[15:04] maybe you you know I I would never feel

[15:08] comfortable doing that. world has

[15:10] humbled me out of that because if I look

[15:12] back at 20 years ago and the people I I

[15:14] hung out with, there were people who I

[15:16] would have bet the farm on who I thought

[15:19] had everything. They had everything.

[15:22] They were shining with promise and they

[15:25] did [ __ ] nothing. They did nothing.

[15:28] And there were people who I dismissed

[15:30] and ignored and was arrogant and almost

[15:33] and probably very rude about who then

[15:36] blew my mind with something that they

[15:38] made that I could never have looked at

[15:40] them and seen was in there. I have a

[15:41] friend who like said, "Oh, I'm writing a

[15:44] novel." I was like, "Oh, so cute. He's

[15:46] wring." Um, you know, 20 years ago, I

[15:49] won't even say who it is. It's somebody

[15:50] who's a very now very renowned novelist.

[15:52] Um, and when he showed this book to me

[15:55] and all of our friends, we thought, did

[15:57] he go hiking and find a cabin and there

[15:59] was a dead body and he moved the body

[16:00] and underneath it there was a pi a

[16:02] manuscript.

[16:04] He couldn't have possibly. So, so having

[16:07] seen both really, we were like, where

[16:11] did he buy this?

[16:13] This is a person with no soul. This is a

[16:15] person with no imagination. Who who

[16:22] You can do it this way, but I want to

[16:24] know. Will you tell them if I I don't

[16:26] want to get it out there?

[16:27] No, I can't. I can't because I just And

[16:29] I love feminist deer, but he's

[16:30] tremendous. Tremendous. Um and and so

[16:34] having seen that

[16:36] I for Darren Strauss.

[16:39] The book was changing.

[16:41] Yeah. Okay.

[16:42] The book was changing. Yeah. Um and many

[16:44] wonderful books to come. And I I

[16:46] shouldn't say had no soul. He just

[16:47] didn't.

[16:49] That's going to go all over the fight.

[16:51] He's a friend of mine. But I

[16:53] can Yeah. Can we just have a pact? Can

[16:55] we just be stays here and say what's

[16:58] what happens in Vegas?

[16:59] So, what I'm saying is I the the

[17:02] question to me that is the least

[17:04] interesting in the world is the question

[17:06] of talent for two reasons. One is

[17:08] because it can never be objectively

[17:10] measured. We will have I have no idea

[17:11] how much writing talent I have. Um

[17:14] there's no way for me to know. All I

[17:15] know is that I've devoted myself to this

[17:18] as a craft from a very early age and

[17:20] I've put years and years and years into

[17:21] it. Um what I'm interested in is what

[17:25] are you going to do? What are you going

[17:27] to do? I don't know what's in you. I

[17:29] don't know what's in people. I can't

[17:31] look at people and decide that. You

[17:32] know, we sort of the interesting thing

[17:35] for me and the most interesting way that

[17:36] I can go through the world is to assume

[17:39] that everyone's got something

[17:40] fascinating in them. And it may not be a

[17:42] Pulitzer Prizewinning novel, but it's

[17:45] but I I think it's a much more

[17:46] interesting way to go through the world

[17:47] than being like, "No, no, no."

[17:50] Okay, but I'm not talking about you

[17:52] judging someone or me judging someone.

[17:54] I'm talking about self- judgment, and

[17:56] it's going to fit into this next

[17:58] question. when I was in Province Town uh

[18:03] 25 years ago and I went away for seven

[18:07] months and I wrote my first novel and I

[18:09] decided that for one time in my life I

[18:14] was going to do my best work. I was

[18:16] going to go to the wall and I wasn't

[18:20] going to write something and then say,

[18:22] well, you know, if it hadn't been for

[18:24] this guy or if it hadn't been for this

[18:26] job or if it hadn't been for, you know,

[18:28] whatever, it would have been better if

[18:30] I was going to see what I had. And and

[18:35] that's the judgment I'm talking about,

[18:36] not the judgment of the world, but when

[18:38] you look inside yourself and you see

[18:41] coal or you see rhinestones. If you make

[18:46] art, but you can always say to yourself

[18:48] or you don't make art and you'd say,

[18:50] "Well, if I had the time, if I had this,

[18:51] if I had that, it would have been so

[18:52] much better." You actually feel a lot

[18:54] better about yourself.

[18:56] Do you do you Well, there's the

[18:58] question. Because

[18:59] Because I disagree. Well, because it can

[19:01] be really painful to sit down and look

[19:05] at yourself and think, "Ah, that's not

[19:07] it's not there."

[19:08] Well, first of all, I don't know a

[19:09] single artist, myself included, who

[19:11] doesn't at times or at many times look

[19:14] in and see Cole, right? So, if that's

[19:17] the criteria by which you should stop

[19:18] working,

[19:19] no, not stop working. Not stop working.

[19:21] But I'm just saying it's

[19:23] it's painful.

[19:25] I have such a different view of this.

[19:26] It's remarkable. Like we are so on the

[19:29] different side of the stage of this

[19:30] because my view of it is so much more in

[19:32] line with the pain of not

[19:36] being a maker and the pain of being the

[19:40] sort of frustration and the

[19:44] I'm going to say the sort of flatlining

[19:45] of being a just being a witness, a

[19:48] bystander, consumer. To me that's much

[19:50] scarier. That's much scarier. Um and

[19:53] Bnee Brown, are we all down with Bnee

[19:55] Brown? Um, you know, Bnee Brown and I

[19:57] had a really interesting conversation

[19:59] about this on our podcast on the last

[20:00] podcast I did with her. Um, which was

[20:02] she was fabulous on this. And I said,

[20:04] "So, what does creativity mean to you?"

[20:05] This is a woman, if you don't know of

[20:06] her, who's a sociologist who studies

[20:08] vulnerability, shame, wholeheartedness,

[20:10] resilience. And one of the things that

[20:12] she discovered in her data is that

[20:14] creativity is actually like expressing

[20:16] creativity, whether you're good at it or

[20:18] bad at it, whether it's diamonds or

[20:20] coal, is essential to a wholehearted

[20:22] life. And she said she would have never

[20:25] realized that years ago. And she said,

[20:27] "If you had asked me five ten years ago,

[20:28] what do I think of creativity?" I would

[20:30] have said, "Oh, that's very cute. I

[20:32] don't do art. I've got a jo o."

[20:34] Oh. Um, which is, you know, just how she

[20:37] felt about it. She thought it was sort

[20:38] of that's not I have a real life, so I

[20:41] don't mess around with have fun making

[20:43] your puppets was basically what her

[20:45] opinion was. And she said the problem is

[20:47] that all of her research has shown that

[20:49] and the the line that she used that I

[20:51] love is unused creativity is not benign.

[20:56] That your creativity is a sort of life

[20:58] force within you that's part of your

[20:59] human inheritance that 50,000 years of

[21:02] human beings have participated in at

[21:03] some level or another. And it's part of

[21:05] something that needs to be it's an

[21:07] engine that needs to be going. And if

[21:08] you don't use it for something, it

[21:10] doesn't just idle in neutral. You know,

[21:13] it's it's as I say in here, having a

[21:14] creative mind, having a human mind is

[21:17] like owning a border collie for a pet.

[21:19] You have to give that thing a job to do

[21:21] or else it's going to find a job to do.

[21:22] And the job it finds, you won't like.

[21:24] And so what I want, all I want is to let

[21:27] people let their border collie run a

[21:29] little bit and then let's see what it

[21:30] is. Do you think that that's also true

[21:32] for compassion, generosity,

[21:36] intellectual stimulation,

[21:38] unused virtue is not benign?

[21:39] Yeah.

[21:40] Yes, I would say so. Unused love is not

[21:43] benign. Yeah.

[21:44] Um, you know, we are richly made and

[21:48] filled with remarkable

[21:51] mechanisms and software of of feeling

[21:54] and sensitivity and emotion. And I think

[21:55] they need they need some space. And if

[21:58] they don't get it, there's I mean my my

[22:01] lived experience. I don't have the data

[22:02] that Bnee has, but it matches my lived

[22:05] experience when I see lives of people

[22:08] sort of

[22:10] they they sort of take a gray pal um and

[22:13] there's something and then they can

[22:14] restimulate. I mean the my favorite

[22:15] story that I tell in the book is of my

[22:17] friend Susan who took up figure skating

[22:19] when she was in her 40s and you wrote

[22:20] about it. I love that story too.

[22:22] Yes.

[22:23] Go ahead, answer that question. So, my

[22:25] friend Susan was a very talented figure

[22:28] skater as a teenager. Uh, it was her

[22:30] life. It was her passion. It was her

[22:32] joy. And then she was informed one day,

[22:34] as very talented young people often are.

[22:36] Um,

[22:38] off the ice, you'll never be an

[22:39] Olympian. You're done. Bye. Pack up your

[22:41] skates. And she got off. I mean, what a

[22:43] system, first of all. So, here, young

[22:45] person who has devoted your entire life

[22:46] to this thing that you love more than

[22:48] anything else. We just realized and did

[22:50] the data that you're never going to win

[22:51] a gold medal. So, I guess you're done

[22:52] with this. Good. See you. Um, and 25

[22:55] years later, when she was in her 40s and

[22:58] feeling very drab and dull and sort of

[23:01] just uninspired, she did a big soul

[23:03] search and asked herself when the last

[23:05] time she had felt really alive, was

[23:08] really kind of in touch and invigorated

[23:10] and creative. And to her horror, she

[23:12] realized it hadn't been since she was 14

[23:14] or 15 years old and she was figure

[23:15] skating. So, she went and got some

[23:18] skates and found a rink and hired a

[23:20] coach. And three mornings a week before

[23:21] her demanding day job began, she would

[23:23] go and skate. And she didn't sell her

[23:26] house, didn't quit her job, didn't get

[23:27] divorced, didn't move to Toronto, and

[23:29] didn't win a world championship. She

[23:31] just gave herself back this thing that

[23:33] was the most efficient engine for her to

[23:35] feel a certain way that she couldn't

[23:37] seem to feel any other way. And what I

[23:40] don't tell in the story is everything

[23:42] else that opened up in her life after

[23:43] that. After that, then she was like,

[23:46] "This job sucks. I need a better job."

[23:50] Um, and so she got a better job, not in

[23:52] figure skating, just in the field that

[23:53] she was in in publishing.

[23:54] Susan in San Francisco.

[23:56] No, no, no. Um, this is an editor who I

[23:58] used to work with at GQ. She's like,

[24:00] "I'm tired of sitting in my pajamas

[24:02] eating cereal out of the box in front of

[24:03] the TV every night. I'm going to start

[24:05] dating." Um, she met her husband. She

[24:08] said, "I've lived in this apartment

[24:09] since the year I graduated from college.

[24:11] I'm a 45-year-old woman. I deserve a

[24:12] better place with some sun and I can

[24:14] afford it." All of this came from the

[24:17] figure skating, right? So, that's what

[24:19] I'm talking about about it doesn't have

[24:22] to be. And and look, she was the only

[24:24] middle-aged woman on the ice with a

[24:27] bunch of feathery nine-year-old girls

[24:28] flying around her. And she was like, "I

[24:31] don't care. I don't care. I just want to

[24:33] be here because I can't feel this way

[24:36] any other way. That's what I'm

[24:37] interested in."

[24:38] All right. But, but a big problem, if

[24:40] you read to the end of the index card,

[24:42] um,

[24:45] is that in writing,

[24:47] right? I'm always trying to tell people

[24:50] it is so

[24:52] beyond okay, beautiful, wonderful,

[24:54] important. You write because you love

[24:55] it. You don't need to publish. You don't

[24:57] need to make money. You write because

[24:59] you can't help but write. You love to

[25:01] write. It improves your life. But the

[25:03] desire to monetize the art. And I will

[25:06] only speak for writing, but I'm sure

[25:08] it's true all over the place

[25:11] completely squashes

[25:13] the art in so many cases with so many

[25:16] people. When they say, "I would like to

[25:19] do what you do," they're talking more

[25:21] about the living, the life,

[25:23] your career, not your I want your

[25:25] career, not your art,

[25:26] not your art. And what I love about the

[25:28] story of Susan is that is removed. I

[25:31] don't care how good you are. If you are

[25:33] 40 years old, you are not ever going to

[25:36] be an Olympian. Doesn't make any

[25:38] difference. Diana Niad has really thrown

[25:40] a curve in this whole thing for me. But

[25:43] you know, it's channel swimming for most

[25:46] of us is not going to be competitive at

[25:47] this point.

[25:49] How can we get that across to people?

[25:53] Well, what I always I mean, look, you

[25:55] can't take people's hope away from them

[25:57] and you can't take people's dreams away

[25:58] from them, nor I mean, I think I try to

[26:00] be as realistic as I possibly can be in

[26:02] this book and talk about, please don't

[26:04] please don't bank on, you know, please

[26:06] don't bank on this, please don't bank on

[26:08] that. Please don't go into debt to

[26:10] become an artist. That's the number one

[26:11] rule that I have whenever anybody asks

[26:13] me for creative advice. Um, first of

[26:15] all, please don't go into debt for a lot

[26:17] of things, but mostly, please do not go

[26:19] into debt to become an artist. it's not

[26:21] fair to you or to your art or to your

[26:23] creativity. Um, don't do that. There's

[26:25] no need to do that. Um, so I mean, we

[26:28] can speak as rationally as we can to

[26:29] people. The only thing I can do when I

[26:32] talk to people is to ask them, and here

[26:34] I'm going to go back up into sort of the

[26:36] magical thinking that's at the basis of

[26:38] so much of how I operate because it's

[26:40] what I have to tell myself is it's

[26:44] perfectly okay to have an ego. We all

[26:46] have one. The definition of your ego is

[26:48] it's a bottomless hole of desire. It can

[26:50] never be satisfied with anything. Your

[26:52] ego is the thing that will sell 20

[26:54] million records and wonder why it wasn't

[26:56] 30 million. Right? Um and if and that's

[27:00] it. It can't be it can be satisfied for

[27:02] moments, but it can't be eternally

[27:03] satisfied. No matter what your ego gets,

[27:05] there's going to be another level where

[27:06] it wants more. It wants five of them. It

[27:08] wants them in blue. It wants it tomorrow

[27:09] morning. You know, that's the definite.

[27:11] We all have this at some level in

[27:13] ourselves. So, I had a a letter on

[27:15] Facebook the other day from a young

[27:16] woman who said, "I don't think it's fair

[27:18] for anybody to tell me that I shouldn't

[27:20] want to be a successful actress. I'm

[27:22] going to acting school and I want to be

[27:24] a successful actress." And I said,

[27:25] "That's of course you want to be a

[27:26] successful actress. I wanted to be a

[27:28] successful writer. Um, when I was your

[27:30] age, I wanted to be published. If I

[27:31] didn't want to be published, I wouldn't

[27:32] have bothered try to get published. I

[27:34] would have just written in my bedroom

[27:35] and put it under my desk and been fine.

[27:37] But I wanted it to be seen. It's fine."

[27:40] But make sure you have, if not a, if

[27:43] you're not capable of having a stronger

[27:44] motive than that, make sure you at least

[27:47] have an additional one, make sure you

[27:49] have an additional one. And let that

[27:51] additional one be something that has

[27:53] more to do with your soul than your ego.

[27:56] Because you are also a soul and your

[27:58] soul wants a bunch of different stuff

[27:59] than your ego wants. Your soul wants

[28:01] wonder. It wants becoming. It wants

[28:02] unfolding. It wants process. It wants

[28:04] connection. It wants some sort of sense

[28:07] of meaning. Those are the things your

[28:08] soul wants. And I have this lecture with

[28:10] myself all the time so that when I get a

[28:13] bad review and I'm miffed about it and I

[28:15] feel like I've been misunderstood or

[28:16] worse understood

[28:18] um and revealed in a way that I don't

[28:20] want to be. I can see this difference

[28:22] where I can check in with my ego and my

[28:24] ego is wounded. It doesn't like it. I

[28:26] would like everybody to like everything

[28:28] I do. It hurts. I still don't like it

[28:31] after all these years. And I'll be like,

[28:33] "Ouch, I don't that didn't feel good. I

[28:35] didn't want that." And then I check in

[28:37] with my soul and say, 'How you doing?'

[28:39] And my soul's like, "We're fine. Can we

[28:42] play more? Can we make another thing? I

[28:43] just want to make another thing. Let's

[28:45] do it again. Let's do another one. Let's

[28:47] do it differently. Let's try this." And

[28:49] that's, you know, I can never totally

[28:51] circumvent my ego, but as long as I'm

[28:54] making sure to constantly check in with

[28:55] a richer and more interesting part of

[28:57] myself, then I feel like I'm all right.

[29:00] And that's the only thing I can ever

[29:02] tell people. And they will or will not

[29:03] hear it. They will or will not hear it.

[29:06] Um, but that's what I've got to offer.

[29:10] Um, something horrifying that happened

[29:14] to me four years ago on a stage in

[29:16] Australia,

[29:18] uh, doing a panel. The moderator asked

[29:21] me what I thought about my brand. Did I

[29:25] ever tell you this story?

[29:26] No.

[29:27] Um, what did I think about my brand? How

[29:29] did I cultivate and market my brand? It

[29:33] was a moment that changed my life in a

[29:35] terrible way because until then I never

[29:37] knew that I had a brand. I had no idea.

[29:40] Like I never knew that that word could

[29:42] be applied to me. I mean I guess I

[29:45] thought Taylor Swift has a brand but

[29:47] probably everybody under her were

[29:49] brandless.

[29:50] Um

[29:54] so you

[29:55] how did you can I ask you how you

[29:56] answered it?

[29:57] What did you do in that moment? I mean

[29:59] I mean I burst into tears and run off

[30:01] the stage. I I said, "I have I really I

[30:04] was like, I'm sorry. I'm going to have

[30:06] to go into therapy for years before I

[30:08] can answer this question. I don't know."

[30:10] It really shook me up. It really really

[30:12] shook me up. And it's sort of like a

[30:14] nasty thing that's been in my head

[30:16] because people will ask me to do things

[30:19] when I interviewed Shirley Mlan um uh at

[30:22] TAC a few months ago and I actually came

[30:26] off the stage thinking that probably

[30:28] wasn't good for my brand.

[30:33] And I hate having that thought, but your

[30:37] brand

[30:39] is

[30:40] enormous and um and in in I don't want

[30:46] to say it's in conflict with itself, but

[30:49] you are doing very different things. I

[30:53] understand how they're all connected,

[30:56] but you're a you're a brilliant fiction

[30:59] writer. you uh your novels, your short

[31:01] stories, you are you are tops and there

[31:06] are a lot of people who would say

[31:09] writing self-help even writing Eat Pray

[31:12] Love. I mean, as somebody who owns a

[31:14] bookstore, the people who don't like

[31:15] Eat, Pray, Love, when I would say, oh,

[31:17] you know, signature of all things, this

[31:19] is the book that you would love. And

[31:20] they would say, oh, no, no, I'm not

[31:21] going to read her. I don't like Eat,

[31:23] Pray, Love. I said, did you read Eat

[31:24] Pray Love? No, I didn't. Oh, no, I

[31:26] didn't eat. And I'm

[31:29] your brand takes you up. There are

[31:32] people who are going to read Signature

[31:33] of All Things because they loved E,

[31:35] Pray, Love. And your brand crashes you

[31:38] to the ground. And now on top of it,

[31:40] you've got this third thing which is an

[31:43] enormous social media presence, which is

[31:46] a different kind of brand. Go for it.

[31:50] Um, there's a question in there

[31:52] somewhere.

[31:53] I I hear you. I hear you. Um, and I'm

[31:56] having the time of my life. I'm having

[31:59] the time of my life. And the Um, thank

[32:03] you.

[32:05] Um,

[32:06] here's the thing about what happened

[32:08] with Eat Pray Love. A bunch of stuff

[32:10] happened because of E Pray Love. Um,

[32:13] I messed with my brand what I had of one

[32:17] by even writing that book because prior

[32:19] to that that's

[32:20] I mean I was not a well-known I was not

[32:22] a well-known writer but if I was known

[32:24] at all I was known for a very certain

[32:26] kind of thing. I was known as a woman

[32:28] who wrote very sympathetically about

[32:29] men.

[32:30] I wrote I mean my two of my first three

[32:32] books had the word men in the title

[32:33] which says a lot about my 20s first of

[32:35] all but um you know I was I was writing

[32:37] for GQ. I was writing for Spin. I

[32:39] And if you haven't read Last American

[32:41] Man,

[32:42] it's genius. I mean, honest to God, that

[32:44] is a genius book. Um, and I kind of blew

[32:48] that up. I knew that I was blowing that

[32:50] up to go and write a memoir about a

[32:52] woman's journey.

[32:53] I just knew that that was it. And I felt

[32:57] I had no choice. I just thought, well,

[33:00] sorry everybody. And this is literally

[33:02] what I was thinking as I was writing. I

[33:03] was like, sorry everybody. And by

[33:05] everybody, I meant like 5,000 people.

[33:07] But sorry everybody. I we may be done

[33:10] here. Um and you may never take me back

[33:13] again, but this is a book I really need

[33:15] to and want to write. So no one's going

[33:17] to like it, but here it is. So it didn't

[33:20] feel like a safe gambit to write that

[33:22] book. It felt like I was and I quit my

[33:24] job at GQ to go and do that. I lost all

[33:26] my credibility as a literary figure. I

[33:29] mean it it felt like a big risk. So

[33:31] obviously turned out great. We all know.

[33:34] Um so two a couple things happened. one

[33:36] is to be very frank that book made me

[33:38] incredibly wealthy to the point that I

[33:40] can do whatever the [ __ ] I want for the

[33:42] rest of my life. Um and and so

[33:48] and so I will

[33:50] because the other thing it did is that

[33:53] it made everyone decide some stuff about

[33:56] me and the great thing about that is

[33:58] that that's in concrete essentially. So

[34:01] once enough people have decided what you

[34:04] are, you are totally free because

[34:08] there's nothing you can do to alter

[34:11] their opinion of you. It's such an

[34:12] enormous waste of time anyway. But

[34:14] they're finished. They already decide

[34:15] they're they're done. They're it's done.

[34:18] They're done with you. So do whatever

[34:20] you want. Do whatever you want. And

[34:22] that's and that feels those two things

[34:24] feel so liberating. And don't think I am

[34:26] not aware that first of all, no woman in

[34:29] the history of my family has ever been

[34:30] independently wealthy. Two, no, very few

[34:34] female artists and creators have ever

[34:36] had that kind of freedom. And don't

[34:39] think I'm going to waste that by not

[34:41] taking doing whatever I want and taking

[34:43] whatever risks. And do you think I think

[34:45] it's so great to write a self-help book

[34:48] right now? Right after Signature of All

[34:50] Things was just beginning, they were

[34:52] just beginning to take me back, you

[34:55] know? They were just beginning to take

[34:57] me back. And I can now they're like, "Oh

[34:59] my god,

[35:01] and now and now basically a book that's

[35:04] a that's a Facebook post, you know, like

[35:07] and I was like, yeah, that's what I want

[35:08] to do right now." and next and so I have

[35:11] this so my brand is my brand there's a

[35:15] level at which your brand is decided is

[35:17] put upon you by other people you're not

[35:20] I mean unless you're a superb marketing

[35:22] genius essentially your brand is what

[35:24] the public decides you are um and then

[35:27] just do whatever you want anyway

[35:30] cares you know I mean I have such

[35:33] freedom I have such freedom um and I

[35:35] don't want to

[35:36] I mean I'm not kidding when I say I mean

[35:38] the reason I wrote the signature of all

[35:39] things is because I thought there aren't

[35:41] a lot of women writers who have the time

[35:43] and the resources to spend four years

[35:45] writing a book about a 19th century

[35:47] virgin who spends her life studying moss

[35:49] and can afford to go to Tahiti and do

[35:52] this. I mean, I can do this. So, I'm

[35:55] going to do this. Um, and people can

[35:58] come along with me or not, but I'm

[36:01] having a ball and and I have to say I

[36:04] have so much respect for you for that.

[36:06] But it's a it is a bold thing. I had so

[36:10] many people tell me in the business who

[36:14] love signature, you would have won a

[36:16] Pulitzer if it hadn't been free for you.

[36:18] Pray love.

[36:19] I don't need a P.

[36:20] No, I know you don't. I absolutely know

[36:22] that. I don't need one.

[36:23] You are not managing your brand the way

[36:26] the world

[36:26] no would manage.

[36:28] And I tell you, if I started managing it

[36:30] that way, I think it would go very

[36:31] badly. I had a conversation with um the

[36:33] the performance artist Sarah Jones

[36:35] recently and she said the greatest thing

[36:37] that I've now been stealing and saying

[36:39] everywhere, but she said

[36:41] at the moment of the beginning of

[36:43] creation for her, not the beginning of

[36:45] creation,

[36:47] how whenever you think that may have

[36:49] occurred. I was I was about to throw out

[36:51] a number and then I was like fill in the

[36:53] blank years ago. Um 4,000 years ago when

[36:57] the um but she's talking about her own

[37:00] creation, right? And she said, she said,

[37:03] "There's a highway that I need to get on

[37:05] when I'm inspired and excited about

[37:07] something. And the minute I start

[37:10] thinking, can my agents sell this? Will

[37:13] people like it? Does this reflect my

[37:16] brand? Will my audience come along with

[37:18] me?" She said, "At that moment of the

[37:20] initiation of the creative journey, the

[37:22] second I have any of those thoughts, I

[37:24] have taken such a bad detour off that

[37:27] highway and I'm going to end up in a

[37:29] neighborhood." And this is her line

[37:30] where she said where they're going to

[37:31] beat me, rob me, and take the hub caps

[37:34] off my car. That is where I'm going to

[37:36] end up immediately after getting off the

[37:38] highway that I needed to be on. Right.

[37:39] And and I believe that enormously to be

[37:42] true.

[37:42] You know, this is not the same thing,

[37:43] but it's sort of similar. I really

[37:46] believe in writing literary fiction, you

[37:49] have total freedom.

[37:50] Total total freedom. No one's looking

[37:53] because you you know when I the book

[37:55] that I wrote after Belcanto and I

[37:57] remember going out on tour and people

[37:59] saying weren't you so terrified to write

[38:01] another book after a book that was

[38:03] really popular and I was like nobody

[38:05] reads these things you know I mean

[38:07] honestly even if it's 12 million people

[38:11] in in the scope of the world it's kind

[38:14] of like you know and then it's it's

[38:17] over. We're not curing cancer. we're not

[38:20] working working out the malaria problem.

[38:24] Uh and so I always sit down and feel

[38:27] like, oh my gosh, I can say whatever I

[38:29] want. I can hide in plain sight. And

[38:32] we're not even, you know, I met Karen

[38:35] Slaughter, who writes mystery novels

[38:38] when I was in Amsterdam on a book tour.

[38:40] That woman has sold something like 160

[38:44] million books in her life.

[38:45] The Wimpy Kid, the Wimpy Kid guy, 150

[38:48] million. Captain Underpants 80 million

[38:52] books.

[38:52] I mean, you know, you and I were just

[38:55] like putting peanut butter on toast.

[38:57] You you and I accidentally had a hit

[39:00] within the the very small literary world

[39:02] and then there's all this thing around

[39:04] that, right? We're so small scale

[39:06] compared to what and that's

[39:07] compared to Captain Underpants. We very

[39:10] small scale. I mean to me all a lot of

[39:13] this conversation not our conversation

[39:15] but the sort of conversation around

[39:16] literary fiction reminds me of

[39:18] Kissinger's line about his answer when

[39:20] somebody said why is academia why is the

[39:22] world of academia so vicious and he said

[39:24] because the stakes are so small um you

[39:27] know I mean I don't and I don't I truly

[39:30] don't I truly don't care about a legacy

[39:33] because I won't be around to enjoy it

[39:35] um you know I'm enjoying my life at this

[39:38] very moment but when I'm dead what

[39:40] possible posible benefit am I going to

[39:41] have from having any kind of legacy dead

[39:44] doesn't help me I want to do stuff now

[39:47] um and I want to do the stuff that makes

[39:49] you know there's that wonderful Japanese

[39:51] word akigu is that it akigu your reason

[39:53] to get up in the morning

[39:54] I it's so flattering that you're looking

[39:56] at there

[39:57] I'm like who speak but it's that could

[39:59] you help me

[40:00] I know it from my friend Rob Bell but

[40:01] it's your it's the reason that you wake

[40:03] up and go what do we get to do today

[40:06] what do we get to do today

[40:09] what are you scared of now. Um, same

[40:11] thing. I've always been scared of

[40:12] confrontation, emotional confrontation

[40:14] with people I care about. Um, that is

[40:16] the biggest remains the biggest fear of

[40:18] my life and I'm getting so much better

[40:21] at it. But it's still very scary for me.

[40:24] And it doesn't have anything to do with

[40:26] creativity or what we're talking about

[40:27] on stage here. But there are certain

[40:29] conversations that are so almost

[40:32] impossible for me to have that it's

[40:35] easier for me to move to another country

[40:36] and never see that person again than it

[40:39] is to pick up the phone and say, "That

[40:41] really hurt my feelings." Um,

[40:43] wow. It's very hard. So, but I'm but I'm

[40:46] I'm I'm getting there. I don't want to

[40:49] go to my grave with that. I want to kind

[40:50] of I want to be proc, you know, working

[40:53] on that my whole life. We'll talk about

[40:55] that in the car later.

[40:57] Now I'm terrified.

[41:02] Is there anything that you're scared to

[41:05] do creatively?

[41:07] Well, no. Well, I mean

[41:09] this this is in the list somewhere, but

[41:12] um I think about the whole hunter

[41:15] gatherer thing

[41:16] and I think you are 100% hunter and I am

[41:21] 100% gatherer. One of the reasons that I

[41:25] really think that we do this so well

[41:27] together is we are very good friends and

[41:30] we arrive at the same destination and

[41:33] our planes come in from the completely

[41:36] different sides of the airport and and

[41:38] yet I think we have a lot of respect for

[41:40] each other.

[41:40] We meet in the airport lounge.

[41:42] We meet in the airport lounge. I have so

[41:45] much respect for your hunter quality

[41:49] both in how you live your life that you

[41:52] will go anywhere with a backpack not

[41:56] having any clue where you're going and

[41:59] what the conversation that we were

[42:01] having this afternoon about the hiking

[42:03] and and bringing your father along on

[42:06] these incredibly long hikes and not

[42:08] knowing how long they were and trudging

[42:11] and and I just think God I could never

[42:14] do that. And and that sort of I mean I

[42:17] wouldn't want to I

[42:20] mean I always say my idea of taking a

[42:22] real risk is reading P in a straight

[42:24] back chair. Uh

[42:27] I I am I am a gatherer. I will get your

[42:31] nuts and berries and put them in a

[42:32] basket and bring them back to the

[42:34] hearth.

[42:35] But it's also in your work.

[42:37] So you're always putting yourself out

[42:39] there. You are always on the journey.

[42:42] You are the hero's journey. Uh, and is

[42:45] any of that scary for you?

[42:47] Yeah. All of it is scary. All of it is

[42:49] scary. Well, is that true? Is it all

[42:51] scary?

[42:52] No, it's not. It's scary for me.

[42:54] It's more

[42:55] It's not scary for you.

[42:57] It's more, you know, it's more Here's

[43:00] the thing. I feel like I'm a I don't

[43:03] feel particularly physically courageous.

[43:05] Um,

[43:06] you told me in the car today that your

[43:08] goal was to walk for a year. Yeah, but

[43:11] that's walking. I'm not going to surf.

[43:14] I'm not going to go skiing. I'm not

[43:16] going to, you know,

[43:17] not be home and you're going to wear the

[43:18] same pair of underwear every day and

[43:20] you're going to just walk.

[43:21] I do that even when I'm home, man. Um,

[43:23] but yes, I uh but yeah, anyway, I here's

[43:28] the thing. My view of myself is very

[43:30] Thank you for calling me a hunter

[43:31] because that makes me feel like a sexy

[43:34] cougar. So, thank you. But I um you know

[43:37] that is not actually how I perceive

[43:39] myself because I think I still have a

[43:41] sort of child a vision of myself as a

[43:43] child. I was always very timid and and

[43:44] very fearful and I feel like inside I

[43:46] still feel that that way often. Here's

[43:48] what I feel like my saving grace is is

[43:50] that as scared as I am and as tremulous

[43:53] as I often feel in the world, I'm just

[43:55] 1% more curious than I am afraid.

[43:58] That's beautiful.

[43:59] Just 1%. And you only have to be 1% more

[44:03] curious than afraid to do the thing. Um,

[44:05] and so the curiosity just outweighs the

[44:08] fear.

[44:09] Well, you know, I have something all my

[44:10] life, the risktoleasure ratio. What I

[44:13] really worked out when I lived in

[44:15] Montana and every night on the local

[44:17] news, there would be new and interesting

[44:19] way that citizens died in Missoula. Uh,

[44:22] you know, they they did their hang glide

[44:25] and caught the downdraft, a cougar ate

[44:27] them in the parking lot, whatever. Um,

[44:30] and I would always think no. I mean,

[44:32] there there is the risk almost never

[44:35] outweighs the pleasure for me that I

[44:38] think I would get more out of bungee

[44:39] jumping than I might

[44:42] get when the cord breaks and I I hit the

[44:45] bottom of the gulch. But you you

[44:48] creatively bungee jump and you cliff as

[44:51] a novelist as a gatherer. Yes, I I

[44:54] creatively No, I don't.

[44:57] I don't know. We're losing we're losing

[44:58] this metaphor.

[44:59] We're losing the thread.

[45:00] Um, but I love what you're saying about

[45:02] curiosity.

[45:03] I mean, that's I think, you know, and I

[45:05] talk a lot in this book about, you know,

[45:07] another one of my guiding principles is

[45:09] curiosity over passion because I think

[45:11] another way that people end up getting

[45:13] left out of creative life is that

[45:16] they're constantly being told to follow

[45:17] their passions. And I always feel

[45:18] terrible for graduates sitting in

[45:21] audiences where people tell them to

[45:22] follow their passion and they're like, I

[45:24] don't even know what that what that is.

[45:26] I have one. um or any

[45:28] what direction did it go in? So, how

[45:29] could I follow it?

[45:30] Um I don't um or people who are sort of

[45:34] struggling on their own path at any age

[45:36] and people will just sort of blightly

[45:37] say well yeah just follow your passion

[45:40] in that voice. Um and I feel like it's

[45:42] an I feel like it's a it's sometimes a

[45:45] very cruel piece of advice and sometimes

[45:47] um and usually not very helpful because

[45:49] the deal is this. If you have a central

[45:51] burning passion odds are 10 to one

[45:52] you're already following it. That's kind

[45:54] of the definition of passion. you're do.

[45:55] That's what it means to have one as

[45:57] you're doing it. If you don't have one

[45:59] and somebody tells you to go find one,

[46:03] they're constantly sending you back to

[46:04] look in your purse for the car keys that

[46:06] you have said for 20 years are not in

[46:08] the purse. And they're just like, "Yeah,

[46:09] but did you look in the little side

[46:10] pocket in the purse?"

[46:11] Oh my god. Have we ever done this

[46:12] before? That's one of my favorite

[46:14] metaphors. Really?

[46:15] I use that all the time. The keys are in

[46:17] the drawer. No, they're not. Go back and

[46:19] look again. Really?

[46:20] I didn't know that. One more. It's Look,

[46:22] we're on the same page. this big magic.

[46:26] Um,

[46:27] and and so for me, I just feel like and

[46:29] we live in a passion fetishizing

[46:31] culture. And I think sometimes when

[46:33] people keep hearing that and then they

[46:34] keep saying, "Yeah, but I don't have

[46:36] that thing." Then they think, "Well, I

[46:37] must not be special or matter. Maybe I'm

[46:41] just not supposed to be a thing. Maybe

[46:43] I'm just not a thing." Um, whatever a

[46:46] thing is, I guess I'm not one. And and I

[46:48] feel like the more interesting life is

[46:51] the curiositydriven life. The

[46:52] passion-driven life is all about sort of

[46:54] big signs and dramatic gestures and

[46:56] shaving your head and getting divorced

[46:58] and moving to Nepal and opening an

[47:00] orphanage which most of us don't need to

[47:01] do this week. And um the curiositydriven

[47:04] life is the breadcrumb the trail of

[47:06] breadcrumbs which you know is available

[47:09] daily in a way that passion isn't. I

[47:11] think of myself as a very passion driven

[47:12] person but I can't access my passion

[47:14] every single day but I can access my

[47:16] curiosity every single day. I mean, only

[47:18] when I was in the most savage jaws of

[47:21] deepest depression did that die. Um, but

[47:24] even then, I there was still a little

[47:25] ember of something that was even curious

[47:27] about how are we going to get out of

[47:28] this depression, you know? Do you know

[47:30] what's really funny? I can I think of

[47:33] that in terms of I can access my work

[47:36] ethic every single day.

[47:37] Oh, cool.

[47:38] Yeah. Which is just again coming at it

[47:41] from a different place. I don't think

[47:42] about curiosity. I don't think about

[47:44] creativity. I don't think about

[47:46] discipline every day.

[47:47] I can access my discipline every day.

[47:49] I can get myself there and trust that if

[47:51] I sit down and sit there long enough,

[47:53] sooner or later it may not be today, it

[47:55] will come.

[47:56] What did David Carr say? You can um type

[47:58] until it turns to writing.

[48:01] I actually I would buy that. Yeah, I

[48:04] really would. Um, tell me about Oprah

[48:06] and going out on tour with her and how

[48:10] that experience influenced this book as

[48:13] I think it must have. You know, I'll

[48:15] tell you to drop a name. I was talking

[48:17] to Oprah one day. Um,

[48:20] oh, tell the story about the gym. I just

[48:24] I love that story so

[48:26] so much. Oh, um,

[48:30] she's incredible. She's a she's

[48:32] extraordinary and I will leave a room if

[48:35] someone says a bad thing about her that

[48:37] my loyalty to her and my respect for her

[48:39] is incredible and I've always had that

[48:41] respect for her but having spent some

[48:43] time around her now that has returned to

[48:44] reverence um because she is really

[48:47] really extraordinary. The gym story is

[48:48] that I was in Seattle on book tour for

[48:50] Signature of All Things and I had a time

[48:53] zone thing. So, I woke up early because

[48:55] I was I'm on the East Coast time, but I

[48:56] was on the West Coast. So, my husband,

[48:58] who never gets up early and who never

[49:00] travels with me, was with me. And we did

[49:02] a thing we have never done before or

[49:04] will ever do again in our life, which

[49:05] was go to a gym at 6:30 in the morning.

[49:08] Um, even though you were so wildly

[49:10] rewarded, you'll never do it again.

[49:12] Yeah. I guess how are you going to beat

[49:13] that, though? We walk into the gym at

[49:16] the Four Seasons Hotel in Seattle and we

[49:20] do 10 minutes of exercise, which is

[49:23] about what we do when we go to the gym.

[49:25] And we're wrapping it up. Good. We're up

[49:27] at minute nine and we're like, "We're

[49:28] good. We're good. It's 6. Let's go to

[49:30] the breakfast buffet now, right?" And um

[49:33] and in walks Oprahale Winfrey with her

[49:37] bodyguard at 6:45. It's now 6:45.

[49:41] Um,

[49:43] crazy. And I and I

[49:45] And you knew her because you'd been on

[49:46] her show.

[49:47] Yeah. I'd been on her show twice at that

[49:48] point. That was all the interaction that

[49:50] we had had. And but it was long ago. And

[49:53] a million and a half people have been on

[49:54] her show. Um, and she and she saw Jose

[49:59] and sort of smiled politely at him. And

[50:01] my husband, his real name's not Felipe,

[50:02] by the way. Um, and then I saw her and I

[50:04] said, "Oprah, it's Liz Gilbert." And she

[50:07] said, "How are you?" And I said, "I'm

[50:09] I'm the one who wrote Heat Pray Love."

[50:10] And I was like, I felt like I had to

[50:11] give her.

[50:14] She said, "I I know who you are, Liz."

[50:16] And uh and then immediately Jose and I

[50:20] started backing out of the room, bowing

[50:21] like you would do with a queen

[50:24] just and I just kept saying, "I don't

[50:27] want to take your time. I don't want I

[50:28] know you have no privacy and it's

[50:31] beautiful to see you." And she looked at

[50:32] Jeze and said, "And you're the Brazilian

[50:34] husband I've been hearing so much." She

[50:36] knows everything about everybody. She's

[50:38] amazing. Um, well, and then she said

[50:40] that I she got the bookstore to order

[50:43] more of your books. She said, "I was in

[50:44] the bookstore in Santa Barbara and they

[50:45] were out of Signature of All Things, so

[50:46] I told them to order more." I was like,

[50:48] "Thanks, Mom. That's what my mom does."

[50:51] Um, gee, I wonder if they did it. Ah,

[50:54] she's she's extraordinary. Um, you know,

[50:56] I going on that tour. So, she did then

[50:58] did this tour and invited me and we our

[51:00] magical thinking about that is that she

[51:02] remembered me from the gym and was like,

[51:05] I should have the invitation came. came

[51:08] very shortly thereafter. And I think and

[51:10] my husband's theory is she saw how much

[51:12] you fast you ran out of that room to

[51:14] leave her alone and she thought I could

[51:15] probably spend six weeks with her and

[51:16] she's not going to be a problem. She's

[51:18] not going to bother me because I just

[51:20] don't want to bother I have certain

[51:21] rules around her and one is that I will

[51:23] never ask her for anything and the other

[51:24] is I will never hand her anything

[51:26] because people spend eternity putting

[51:29] things in her hands that is their dream.

[51:31] This is my can you read? Will you

[51:34] support? can you you know and I just

[51:36] won't. Um but I I will tell you the

[51:39] moment that where I saw why she's Oprah

[51:42] Winfrey and nobody else is please.

[51:44] And it was in Newark, New Jersey at this

[51:46] event. So this was this huge tour she

[51:48] did with Ian Vanzant and Deepo Chopra

[51:50] and Rob Bell and me and her and um these

[51:54] stadiums. It was this giant ginormous

[51:56] thing. Um and she's at this stadium tour

[51:59] in New York, New Jersey. and there she

[52:01] says there's a young woman in the

[52:02] audience who I would like to put the

[52:05] spotlight on for a minute and she said

[52:07] this is I can't remember her name but

[52:09] let's say this is Natalie um Natalie's

[52:11] here with her family Natalie is 14 years

[52:13] old and she is a guest of the Makea-Wish

[52:15] Foundation so you know you don't know

[52:18] what but you know we all know what the

[52:21] Makea-Wish Foundation is and we all know

[52:22] that there's something very horrible

[52:25] happening to this girl and to this

[52:26] family and so she this bright beautiful

[52:29] girl stands up and waves and and Oprah

[52:31] said, "I got to meet her backstage and

[52:33] she's so terrific and vivacious and she

[52:35] loves music and just gives her this

[52:36] moment that is so fantastic and her

[52:39] parents are standing behind her crying

[52:40] and it's beautiful." Great. That's

[52:43] terrific. A lot of people could do that.

[52:45] Um, and then she says, "And there's

[52:48] somebody else I'd like to introduce you

[52:49] to who is also a remarkable young woman

[52:52] who I met backstage. Natalie's little

[52:54] sister, Tiffany. Can you stand up?" the

[52:57] nine-year-old

[52:59] who's the little sister of the dying

[53:01] girl and has been probably for years and

[53:04] no one sees

[53:06] and she said, "Can you can you stand

[53:08] up?" I got to talk to Tiffany backstage.

[53:10] She loves horses. She's really good at

[53:14] math. She wants to be a scientist when

[53:15] she grows up. She's a fascinating young

[53:17] woman. I think she's going to be a

[53:18] tremendous She reminds me of me when I

[53:21] was at her age. She loves to read and

[53:23] she just put the light on the person

[53:26] that nobody else sees and pays attention

[53:29] to because she has this 360 degree

[53:32] vision of empathy. And I was like,

[53:35] that's why you're that. That's what you

[53:38] do that nobody else would do and totally

[53:43] self-generated things. So, she's

[53:45] amazing.

[53:46] So, did did that tour have an effect on

[53:49] this book? You know what it did in that

[53:50] I told her? I mean, I've only had one

[53:52] personal conversation in my life with

[53:54] her and it was at one point in that tour

[53:57] and we were talking and she said, "What

[53:58] are you working on?" And I told her I

[53:59] was working on this book about

[54:00] creativity and she said, "Is it just a

[54:03] book for writers or is it going to be a

[54:05] book that's useful for all people?" And

[54:08] at that point, it was just a book for

[54:09] writers. And I was like,

[54:15] and I said, "Oh, it's going to be a book

[54:18] that's useful for all people.

[54:21] So yeah, she influenced it enormously.

[54:26] Okay, we've been talking for an hour, so

[54:28] we have to No, we have you look above

[54:30] the exit sign up there, there's a glowy

[54:32] clock. Uh, so we have to make some

[54:35] decisions.

[54:36] Let's make some decisions.

[54:40] [Laughter]

[54:41] Do you want to take questions from the

[54:43] Let's take a couple questions from the

[54:44] Okay. And we're going to take a couple

[54:45] questions from the audience.

[54:46] Here's my rule. Do you have rules?

[54:48] I have rules. Okay, cool.

[54:50] We're both such hard asses about this.

[54:52] I know. Do you want to do yours and I'll

[54:53] do mine? Or which way?

[54:54] Here's what you don't do. You don't get

[54:56] up and say, "It's not so much a question

[54:58] as it is a speech. It's not so much a

[55:02] question as it is um a weird assault.

[55:08] It is not so much a question as it is a

[55:10] plea for you to read my manuscript." So,

[55:12] don't do any of those things. Just if

[55:14] you have an actual question that is a

[55:16] real question, we will hear your

[55:18] question. That is my rule.

[55:19] Do you have a rule?

[55:20] Mine's very similar. I say if you're the

[55:22] crazy person in the audience, realize

[55:25] realize that about yourself and and just

[55:28] hold yourself in your seat.

[55:33] Um, oh, I'm so stealing that one, Ann.

[55:37] Okay, one one very brief nonsequittor. I

[55:40] I interviewed Sally Man actually both in

[55:43] Nashville but also at Symphony Space in

[55:45] New York the day her book Cold Still

[55:47] came out which is a fabulous book. But

[55:49] Sally Man wrote a memoir about her

[55:51] career. She's a photographer and if the

[55:53] name sounds familiar it's because she's

[55:55] took those amazing naked pictures of her

[55:57] children that really rocked the world in

[55:58] the 80s. And so I said this, you know,

[56:01] if you're the crazy person, just just

[56:04] hold on really tight and wait in your

[56:07] chair till we leave the theater. And

[56:09] everybody was great. They were so great

[56:11] and the questions were so smart. And

[56:14] then at some point this guy stands up

[56:16] and he's crazy guy. And he's standing up

[56:19] and he's going on and on about, you

[56:20] know, Sally's been persecuted all these

[56:22] years and nobody's ever given her the

[56:24] chance to say that she loves her

[56:26] children. And he's going on and on and

[56:28] he's so crazy. And we're up on stage and

[56:31] she leans over and she says to me, not

[56:34] on the mic, she goes, "It's my brother.

[56:39] Oh,

[56:41] and I said to her, "Out him

[56:44] immediately."

[56:46] And so she goes, "It's my brother Bob.

[56:48] You can sit down." And I said, "Who

[56:53] would have guessed crazy guy is actually

[56:56] Sally Man's brother?"

[56:59] It was a really inappropriate thing to

[57:01] say.

[57:02] [Applause]

[57:04] Oh my god.

[57:05] And she said to me later, You know, my

[57:08] daughter Virginia said the just the

[57:11] craziest thing to me after that event.

[57:13] She said that you said, "Who would have

[57:16] guessed that crazy guy was Sally Man's

[57:18] brother?" You didn't say that.

[57:19] Who would have said something like that?

[57:20] I said, "Oh, Virginia, what a horrible

[57:22] thing." Ann wouldn't have said that. I

[57:24] was like, "Oh my god.

[57:27] Oh my god."

[57:28] And he was crazy, you know, like he he

[57:32] really was.

[57:34] So, with all of that luggage behind you,

[57:39] who has a very succinct and specific

[57:43] that smacks you just you've got sanity

[57:46] written all over you. Yellow scarf. Yes.

[57:49] Just shout out.

[57:50] I'm a psycho magnet. So, I'm not going

[57:52] to pick the person. Thank you so much.

[57:55] Let me repeat the question a bit, but

[57:56] it's when you're The question is about

[57:58] something for me. Pray love. you're in

[57:59] the jaws of depression and you're really

[58:01] in the darkness and the 1% of curiosity

[58:04] seems so far away. How do you push

[58:06] yourself through that? Um, here's the

[58:09] crazy. In the end, I started to think of

[58:12] it as this really weird almost physical

[58:15] challenge because I thought this is

[58:17] really interesting. At the moment in

[58:19] your life where you feel the weakest and

[58:20] the most depleted and the most defeated,

[58:22] you have to summon the most strength.

[58:24] That's insane. What a weird pro, what a

[58:27] weird system that is for how we

[58:29] transcend. And yet

[58:32] again and again and again when you speak

[58:33] to people who've been all the way down

[58:36] and come up, they'll they'll talk of

[58:38] that being the truth and the reality of

[58:39] what it means that somehow you have to

[58:41] find when you have no strength, you have

[58:44] to find more strength than you'd ever

[58:45] needed in your entire life. It's

[58:47] tremendously ironic. It's also really

[58:49] interesting as a sort of psychological

[58:52] and almost physical challenge. And so

[58:54] what I would do is I started this thing

[58:56] where I would wake up in the morning and

[58:58] I usually woke up I had a ter some of

[59:00] you who have depression and anxiety may

[59:02] know the 4:30 in the morning wake up um

[59:05] where you wake up in the gasping

[59:07] darkness and it's too late to take a

[59:10] sleeping pill and it's too early to get

[59:11] up and you're just being eaten by your

[59:14] thoughts and it's awful. It's the worst.

[59:16] Um and I would do a kind of cat scan on

[59:19] myself. So, you know, when you go and

[59:21] get a CAT scan, what you're looking for

[59:22] is the one spot, right? Is that what CAT

[59:25] scans and radiology or X-rays are, chest

[59:27] X-rays, you're looking for the one dark

[59:28] spot, which is the pathology. So, when

[59:31] you're in severe depression, your whole

[59:34] body is pathology. Your whole life feels

[59:36] like a pathology. And you do this

[59:38] reverse CAT scan where you're looking

[59:40] for the cluster of five cells of light,

[59:44] you know, um that's what the challenge

[59:46] is. And so every morning when I would

[59:48] lay there, I would and it was a job to

[59:52] try to find the tumor of light, right,

[59:55] that was growing in a completely

[59:57] pathologized life. And then think, what

[1:00:00] can I give that? What can I feed that?

[1:00:03] I'm going to call it a tumor because I'm

[1:00:04] just doing this reverse metaphor, but

[1:00:06] what can I feed that today so that

[1:00:08] tomorrow it's like eight cells and the

[1:00:12] next day it's 10 and the next day it's

[1:00:14] 20. because you can't push darkness out.

[1:00:16] You can only grow light. You can only

[1:00:19] grow light. So, you have to find

[1:00:20] whatever and and and the thing would be

[1:00:22] different every day. Um sometimes it

[1:00:24] would be call somebody who you really

[1:00:26] care about. Give something to someone.

[1:00:29] Um practice some generosity today. Who

[1:00:31] can you give something to just to feel

[1:00:33] like you have something to offer, right?

[1:00:35] Um who can you look in on? Who uh how

[1:00:39] can you exercise in a way that makes you

[1:00:40] feel some vitality again? What can you

[1:00:42] read that's inspiring? Um, how about not

[1:00:45] listening to Leonard Cohen? Um,

[1:00:49] you know, how about maybe not watching

[1:00:51] Verer Herzog movies? How about doing How

[1:00:54] about crossing the street to walk in the

[1:00:56] sunlight deliberately? How about choice

[1:00:57] after choice after choice, seeing what

[1:01:00] you can feed that's a nutrient to get

[1:01:02] that light to grow. And for me, a big

[1:01:04] one was starting to study Italian, which

[1:01:06] is where Eat, Pray, Love really began. I

[1:01:08] just thought, I need to replace some

[1:01:10] language. All the language in my head is

[1:01:12] so disruptive and so dark right now. So

[1:01:14] I need to put a new language in my head

[1:01:15] that has no bad memories. So I literally

[1:01:18] have to learn a new language. And I went

[1:01:19] to like adult school for divorce ladies

[1:01:22] and um started taking an Italian class

[1:01:25] so that I could literally have new words

[1:01:27] that didn't have any dark association.

[1:01:29] So all of that is about does that make

[1:01:31] sense? Um it's it's the biggest

[1:01:33] challenge of your life. It just seems so

[1:01:35] very helpless. But but everyone who had

[1:01:37] ever been through it said the same thing

[1:01:38] like well here's the game. You have to

[1:01:41] find all the strength in the world when

[1:01:42] you have none. Go. Wow. Intense.

[1:01:46] It's beautiful.

[1:01:48] I want to get somebody over here because

[1:01:49] I have been facing away the whole time.

[1:01:51] Yes.

[1:01:52] Well, I think the question is about

[1:01:54] changing conversations about creativity

[1:01:55] in the arts. You know, I think we're

[1:01:57] living in an Etsy moment. Um, and I'm so

[1:02:00] glad. I'm so glad that we are because

[1:02:03] that sort of exemplifies everything that

[1:02:05] I believe in and stand for.

[1:02:07] Felting. What's that?

[1:02:08] Felting.

[1:02:09] A lot of felting. A lot of felting going

[1:02:11] on.

[1:02:12] A lot of coloring books. It's a big

[1:02:14] change in the cultural conversation

[1:02:15] around the arts. You know, I I got to

[1:02:17] tell you, I one thing I'm really

[1:02:19] terrible about is huge social questions.

[1:02:22] Um, because I don't tend to see the

[1:02:25] world that way. I'm not good at that. My

[1:02:27] my record so far in life for solving

[1:02:29] huge social issues is zero. Um I'm much

[1:02:32] better kind of at in like the questions

[1:02:35] of the individual than I am at the

[1:02:36] questions of the culture because I feel

[1:02:38] like the culture gets so big I don't

[1:02:39] know how to deal with it.

[1:02:40] But what about committed?

[1:02:42] Oh right. I take that back. I'm so good

[1:02:45] at writing. That is a big cultural

[1:02:46] question, isn't it? Yeah, it really and

[1:02:48] and in a world view cultural question

[1:02:51] that what she was asking about

[1:02:52] creativity is what you did with marriage

[1:02:55] and committed which is another book that

[1:02:56] I really love and if you're if you know

[1:02:58] anybody who's thinking about getting

[1:03:00] married give them that book because it's

[1:03:03] such an incredible thoughtful look at

[1:03:05] marriage all over the world.

[1:03:07] Thank you.

[1:03:07] So look, you did it.

[1:03:09] I needed to write that book because I

[1:03:11] needed to figure that stuff out. And

[1:03:12] there are books that you know there are

[1:03:13] books that you want to write and there

[1:03:14] are books that you need to write and

[1:03:16] that was one I needed to write because I

[1:03:18] the only way I could change my thinking

[1:03:21] about marriage was to learn everything

[1:03:22] about it and then find a pathway to make

[1:03:24] myself feel comfortable with it.

[1:03:25] Okay. So can you answer that question?

[1:03:27] I don't know if I can. I don't know if I

[1:03:28] have an answer. I mean I I it's hard for

[1:03:30] me to say I don't know because that's a

[1:03:31] hard thing for me to say. I'm bad at it.

[1:03:34] But the truth is I don't know that I

[1:03:35] have a big vision on that. But thank you

[1:03:37] for thank you for asking. Um, how's the

[1:03:40] balcony all the way in the very back

[1:03:42] grow? Yes. You have such a strong

[1:03:44] authentic voice. How did you find it?

[1:03:47] It's a good question.

[1:03:49] Thank you. I'm uh

[1:03:54] I'm tempted to say by trying out a bunch

[1:03:57] of others

[1:03:59] first, right? Um the the wonderful

[1:04:02] psychoanalyst Adam Phillips says that

[1:04:04] sometimes the only way we can learn I

[1:04:05] mean this is for me. This is how I've

[1:04:07] learned everything in my life. Sometimes

[1:04:09] the only way we can learn boundaries is

[1:04:10] to practice excess to see where the

[1:04:13] boundaries are. Um because otherwise you

[1:04:15] just don't know. Um and so I think it's

[1:04:17] almost the same way for me with like

[1:04:19] that's certainly been the case for me

[1:04:20] with most of the lessons that I've

[1:04:21] learned in my life is that I was only

[1:04:23] able to learn them by going over the

[1:04:27] boundary of what was too much and then

[1:04:29] being like, "Oh, I guess that's where

[1:04:30] the line is." Um oh, that hurt and hurt

[1:04:33] a bunch of other people. Back it up. You

[1:04:35] know? Um, and I think with my voice it's

[1:04:37] a little bit the same practicing. I

[1:04:39] mean, certainly in my 20s, I was trying

[1:04:41] to write like everybody. I was trying to

[1:04:43] write like Annie Pru for so long. Most

[1:04:45] of the stories in Pilgrims, I think,

[1:04:47] sound like Annie Pru.

[1:04:49] Thank Well, not for lack of that's only

[1:04:52] because I wasn't doing a very good Annie

[1:04:53] Pru imitation, but I was trying to.

[1:04:55] I congratulate you. Um,

[1:04:58] Ann loves Annie Pru's writing. you can

[1:05:00] see um I I think I just tried a bunch of

[1:05:04] other voices. Um and and then through

[1:05:08] that and ultimately I don't know how did

[1:05:10] I get a strong authentic voice.

[1:05:12] I I think it's actually DNA. I really I

[1:05:14] mean no joke. I think it's like being

[1:05:15] tall. It's like being blonde. It's like

[1:05:17] it's who you are. I'm tall, blonde,

[1:05:19] strong, and authentic. Um

[1:05:23] I don't know. I mean, I think I had to I

[1:05:27] think I played I played around with a

[1:05:28] you didn't know me in my 20s. I played

[1:05:30] around with a lot of different

[1:05:31] identities. We were at the store today

[1:05:32] and there was a jacket that I said there

[1:05:34] was a period of my life when I would

[1:05:35] have worn that. Like there's a that's

[1:05:37] something I was going to be trying to

[1:05:39] pretend to be. So, I think I I had to

[1:05:41] pretend to be a bunch of stuff until I

[1:05:42] found my way to my real self. And I

[1:05:44] don't advise that. If you can do it

[1:05:46] another way, do it another way. But

[1:05:48] unfortunately, that's the only way I I

[1:05:49] was ever able to figure it out. And I

[1:05:51] just made eye contact with you. So, yes.

[1:05:55] Can I can I jump in here because this is

[1:05:57] a question that I have in my lap. Talk

[1:06:00] about the Melville letter to Hawthorne.

[1:06:04] That was so helpful to me to read that.

[1:06:07] Okay.

[1:06:07] Um I will and I will also

[1:06:09] Oh, and repeat her question.

[1:06:11] I will also say

[1:06:13] I think you can value your work without

[1:06:15] jeopardizing your life.

[1:06:18] I valued my work through my entire 20s

[1:06:20] and I never put myself in financial

[1:06:23] jeopardy over my work. When I talk about

[1:06:25] not quitting your job, I'm talking at

[1:06:27] the most real level about not putting

[1:06:30] yourself in a situation where you're

[1:06:31] going to be in trouble. And I have full

[1:06:34] faith in your resourcefulness as an

[1:06:36] adult that you can do both of those

[1:06:38] things at the same time. And at the same

[1:06:40] time that I was working three jobs to

[1:06:43] pay the bills because I needed a roof

[1:06:45] and I needed and I needed there's a I

[1:06:47] can't worry about I grew up in a family

[1:06:50] where like taking care of yourself was

[1:06:52] so valued and it was so driven into me

[1:06:54] that if I worry start worrying about how

[1:06:56] I'm going to look after myself or where

[1:06:58] the money's going to come from next

[1:06:59] month that's the only thing I can think

[1:07:00] about. So I needed to set myself up so

[1:07:03] that I was didn't have to worry about

[1:07:04] that. So I needed to become my own

[1:07:06] patron right? I needed to become my own

[1:07:08] sugar daddy, my own studio wife, my own

[1:07:11] grant writer, you know, and the way I

[1:07:12] did that was by bartending and waiting

[1:07:14] tables and working in a bookstore and

[1:07:15] selling things in a flea market and

[1:07:17] doing journalism when I could get the

[1:07:18] work and all of that. Never did that

[1:07:21] devalue the work because the work came

[1:07:25] before all of that even began. The work

[1:07:27] was setting the alarm an hour earlier.

[1:07:29] The way I valued my work was getting up

[1:07:32] an hour earlier and before I did any of

[1:07:34] those other jobs doing my writing. So, I

[1:07:36] could go tired to my bookstore job, but

[1:07:39] I wasn't going to go tired to my

[1:07:40] writing. Valuing the work meant every

[1:07:42] single week sending out another short

[1:07:45] story to another magazine, another

[1:07:47] request, another attempt. Valuing the

[1:07:49] work meant knocking on doors at

[1:07:50] magazines and saying, "I'm really good

[1:07:52] writer. You should hire me. I I should

[1:07:54] have a job here." All of that could be

[1:07:56] done at the same time as making sure

[1:07:58] that I didn't go under. Do you

[1:08:01] understand what I mean? So I don't see

[1:08:02] them as being in fact I actually think

[1:08:05] that there's a tremendous honor that you

[1:08:08] come into and sort of bone building that

[1:08:10] you come into by supporting yourself

[1:08:12] that will make you stronger as an artist

[1:08:14] that will make you more powerful and

[1:08:16] more confident as an artist. Um so do

[1:08:19] both. The answer is yes both if that

[1:08:22] makes sense.

[1:08:23] And and also think of it as being in

[1:08:26] love. If you have three jobs and you are

[1:08:28] in love with somebody, you are going to

[1:08:30] see that person. You're going to find

[1:08:32] those minutes and it's never going to

[1:08:34] feel like a burden and you're never

[1:08:35] going to quit your job so you have more

[1:08:37] time to spend with your lover. Everybody

[1:08:39] understands that that's craziness,

[1:08:42] but you just miss it. No. Um,

[1:08:46] again, you have to go to the excess to

[1:08:49] find the boundary. Um, but you're

[1:08:53] absolutely right. And no one who was

[1:08:54] ever having an affair had their lover

[1:08:57] who they haven't seen in a week call and

[1:08:58] say, "I'm in town. I have an hour." And

[1:09:01] they said, "I'm a little busy." Like

[1:09:03] when you're when you're in love, you you

[1:09:06] make you find that hour. You make it.

[1:09:07] The Melville story is a letter that

[1:09:10] Melville wrote to Hawthorne. Um they

[1:09:12] were pen pals, not unlike us, an um and

[1:09:16] he it's this heartbreaking letter where

[1:09:18] he just said, "I am pulled hither and

[1:09:21] thither by circumstance." He just this

[1:09:23] and the whole I only put a piece of it

[1:09:24] in Big Magic, but there's a whole long

[1:09:26] letter where he just is laying out all

[1:09:28] his burdens, all his responsibilities,

[1:09:29] all his troubles. Everybody wants a

[1:09:31] piece of him. He has no time. And he

[1:09:33] said, "I'm longing for the cool summer

[1:09:35] green grass uninterrupted days in which

[1:09:38] a man should compose." And I put this in

[1:09:41] Big Magic to say

[1:09:44] this is the desire that never goes away.

[1:09:46] I don't know a single artist, no matter

[1:09:48] how successful they are, who doesn't

[1:09:50] long for this Edenic dream of some sort

[1:09:54] of utopian thing that's going to happen

[1:09:56] someday where all the obstacles and all

[1:09:59] the responsibilities are going to be

[1:10:00] removed and you're just going to be

[1:10:01] given this eternity of slow languid warm

[1:10:06] summer green grass growing days in which

[1:10:08] to focus completely on creativity. No

[1:10:10] one ever gets that. No one ever gets

[1:10:12] that. Melville never got it. And he

[1:10:14] wrote Moby Dick anyway. He wrote it

[1:10:17] anyway. He did it the way we write our

[1:10:19] books. I wrote today I had 20 minutes

[1:10:22] before I met you here and I worked on my

[1:10:25] novel and I'm on book tour and that's

[1:10:27] how much time I had. And it's not ideal.

[1:10:31] It's not This is not an ideal

[1:10:32] circumstance in which to be working on a

[1:10:34] novel.

[1:10:34] You could have left UA a little earlier.

[1:10:36] No, I I had obligations.

[1:10:40] You could. My life is so full of

[1:10:41] demands, Ann. I had to try on all those

[1:10:43] pants.

[1:10:44] Gone into the dressing room and just sat

[1:10:46] down. Um, Liz Gilbert, why don't you

[1:10:49] tell us why you won't be having a

[1:10:51] signing line tonight? Okay, so here's

[1:10:53] the situation, you guys. My book tour

[1:10:56] began in the middle of September in New

[1:10:58] York City and it ends in the middle of

[1:11:01] December in Germany. And along the way,

[1:11:04] I'm going to six countries and I don't

[1:11:07] even know how many cities. I haven't had

[1:11:08] the the stomach to look at the number of

[1:11:10] them. Um, and I'm not and this is

[1:11:12] something I want to do and it's

[1:11:13] something I particularly want to do with

[1:11:15] this book because I feel like if you

[1:11:17] write a manifesto then you should bring

[1:11:19] your manifesto into the world, right?

[1:11:20] You should go out there and sort of like

[1:11:22] stand tall for your manifesto. And I

[1:11:25] want to bring this book to as many

[1:11:27] audiences as I possibly can. But as I

[1:11:29] was planning this tour and looking at

[1:11:31] what the demands of that tour was going

[1:11:32] to be, I realized that um the only way I

[1:11:36] was going to be able to do that and get

[1:11:38] through it without getting sick, and you

[1:11:40] and I know about getting sick on book

[1:11:42] tour, it happens usually every book tour

[1:11:44] for us. um is

[1:11:45] usually by the third sitting

[1:11:48] um was to be very real and honest with

[1:11:52] myself about the limits of my energies

[1:11:55] and my capacities, what I can physically

[1:11:57] and emotionally do when I'm going from

[1:12:00] airplane to airplane and city to city

[1:12:01] and hotel and hotel and venue to venue.

[1:12:04] And so I decided that for the first time

[1:12:05] I've been on tour for books for over 20

[1:12:07] years now. And this is the first tour

[1:12:09] where I'm not going to be doing a book

[1:12:11] signing line and we won't be doing

[1:12:12] selfies and I won't be meeting you face

[1:12:14] to face. And this was a really hard

[1:12:16] decision for me to make because I know

[1:12:18] that some of you come great distances

[1:12:20] and there's things that you want to say

[1:12:21] and there's a moment that you want to

[1:12:23] have. And so the two things that I want

[1:12:26] to do now, one of them is to formally

[1:12:29] explain why I'm not doing it, which I

[1:12:30] just did, and to ask your forgiveness

[1:12:32] for it. and and I hope that you'll

[1:12:34] understand and um not throw bottles at

[1:12:37] me. Um and the second thing is that I

[1:12:41] want to close with this idea and take

[1:12:43] take you out on this because

[1:12:46] I'm 46 years old and I'm starting to

[1:12:49] finally get real about what I can and

[1:12:53] cannot do. Again, pushing over the

[1:12:55] boundaries into the excess before you

[1:12:57] realize where the line has to be. And

[1:13:00] the reason that I wanted to tell

[1:13:01] everybody personally why I'm not doing

[1:13:02] the book signing line is one to

[1:13:04] the books are all signed.

[1:13:04] They're all signed. Oh, here's what I

[1:13:06] did do. I went to a um a warehouse in

[1:13:08] the middle of Maryland this summer for

[1:13:11] three days and I signed 20,000 copies of

[1:13:14] Big Magic to make sure that everybody

[1:13:15] gets a signed copy. Um so I didn't

[1:13:18] totally abandon you. Um, but what I want

[1:13:22] to the other reason I want to talk about

[1:13:23] it is that when I did that Facebook

[1:13:26] shout out two years ago and I asked you

[1:13:29] or whoever of you were on that Facebook

[1:13:31] page, if you're not practicing your

[1:13:33] creativity, why are you not? One of the

[1:13:35] main things that came up again and again

[1:13:37] and again was people saying, I don't

[1:13:38] have time. I don't have energy. By the

[1:13:41] time I've given everything that I give,

[1:13:43] at the end of the day, there's

[1:13:44] absolutely nothing left. I'm being sort

[1:13:47] of eaten by my life. and and that time

[1:13:49] isn't there. And so I hope that you'll

[1:13:52] take this example of this thing that I

[1:13:55] had to say no to that disappointed a lot

[1:13:57] of people and allow yourself to walk out

[1:14:00] of here thinking about what in your life

[1:14:03] you might have to start saying no to

[1:14:05] even at the risk of disappointing people

[1:14:07] that you care about, even at the risk of

[1:14:09] maybe not being as loved, in order to

[1:14:12] create the space and the time to do the

[1:14:15] thing that you keep saying you want to

[1:14:16] do. Right? because we don't have all the

[1:14:19] time in the world. And the only way

[1:14:21] you're going to get that time is to make

[1:14:22] it. And the only way you're going to

[1:14:23] make it is to start saying no to a bunch

[1:14:26] of other stuff. And look, if the if the

[1:14:28] no was easy, you would have said it a

[1:14:30] long time ago, right? So the things that

[1:14:32] you might have to start saying no to

[1:14:33] might be very difficult and very hard

[1:14:35] for you to say no to, but they have to

[1:14:37] be done. And I'm somebody who never said

[1:14:40] no until I was, I think, 34 was, I

[1:14:42] think, the first time that word came out

[1:14:44] of my mouth. Um, which again explains a

[1:14:46] lot about my 20s, but um, I just I

[1:14:51] didn't know how to I didn't know you

[1:14:53] could. Um, and the reason and it's such

[1:14:56] an interesting thing because the reason

[1:14:57] I never said no, I'm a big pleaser and I

[1:14:59] want everybody to be happy and I want to

[1:15:01] be liked and I want to be loved. Um, the

[1:15:03] reason I never said no to people for so

[1:15:05] many years was because I didn't want

[1:15:08] people to be disappointed and I didn't

[1:15:10] want people to like me less. That's

[1:15:12] quite frankly why I said yes to

[1:15:14] everything. And then I finally hit a

[1:15:16] wall where I realized I had to start

[1:15:18] setting boundaries in my life or even

[1:15:19] learning what they were. And what I

[1:15:22] realized when I started saying no to

[1:15:24] people, it was actually really amazing.

[1:15:26] So I'd had this huge fear that if you

[1:15:27] say no to people, they won't like you as

[1:15:28] much and and and they'll be

[1:15:30] disappointed. When I started saying no

[1:15:32] to people, what I discovered was that

[1:15:34] they don't like you as much and they get

[1:15:35] really disappointed.

[1:15:37] It's totally true. There's a reason I

[1:15:39] never did it because everything that I

[1:15:42] feared comes to pass. People don't like

[1:15:44] it. I don't like being said no to,

[1:15:47] right? Nobody likes being said. If

[1:15:48] there's something you want from someone

[1:15:50] and they say no, you don't like it. It's

[1:15:52] just a fact of life. And yet part of

[1:15:54] maturity and part of honoring the

[1:15:56] limited energies that you have is being

[1:15:59] able to allow another person to stand in

[1:16:02] their disappointment and being able to

[1:16:04] observe it and feel it even and say, "I

[1:16:06] recognize that this is disappointing for

[1:16:08] you and I'm going to let you have that

[1:16:10] because I need to hold this now because

[1:16:12] I'm not going to be here forever and

[1:16:15] there's stuff I want to do and there's a

[1:16:16] way I want to feel and I'm not doing

[1:16:18] that stuff and I'm not feeling that way

[1:16:20] and it has to start now." So, that's

[1:16:22] what I'd like to invite you all to think

[1:16:24] about as you walk out.

[1:16:27] Thank you. And thank you for not

[1:16:29] throwing bottles at me.

[1:16:32] I appreciate it.

[1:16:34] You want to sing?

[1:16:36] You guys want to sing?

[1:16:37] Will you sing a song with me?

[1:16:40] And an um sure. Um

[1:16:42] and then we actually do have to go and

[1:16:44] Jane meet me up here. And Jane is gonna

[1:16:47] come and sing with us. Jane, where is

[1:16:48] Jane? Can you come sing?

[1:16:51] Come, come on up. Jane Hamilton,

[1:16:54] everybody. Oh, where is she? Where is

[1:16:58] she? She left 15 minutes ago.

[1:16:59] There she is.

[1:17:01] Um, I'm giving Jane my microphone.

[1:17:04] So, on this book tour, one thing I've

[1:17:05] been doing instead of the book signing

[1:17:06] line is I've been doing a song at the

[1:17:08] end of the night and asking everybody to

[1:17:09] sing. Bnee Brown says, "Come on, Jane

[1:17:12] Hamilton.

[1:17:14] She's so awesome."

[1:17:15] America's famous novelist crawling on

[1:17:18] the

[1:17:20] Hi Janie.

[1:17:21] I'm not wearing your outfit. I had to do

[1:17:23] something sort of extreme just to you

[1:17:26] know

[1:17:27] you're awesome.

[1:17:27] Yeah. Right. Right. Um Hey, that was

[1:17:30] Do you have your phone?

[1:17:31] That was wonderful. That was sweetheart.

[1:17:33] So good both of you.

[1:17:38] I'm just here to say that was really

[1:17:40] great. I don't know.

[1:17:42] Two out of three.

[1:17:44] I was going to say two of the best

[1:17:46] female novelists in the world are on

[1:17:47] this stage right now.

[1:17:50] I'm not going to say who. Um uh

[1:17:55] um do you have your phone with you so we

[1:17:56] can get the lyrics?

[1:17:58] That's We only called you up here for

[1:17:59] your and for your voice.

[1:18:01] Okay. Yeah.

[1:18:02] Cool. So here's what you all So here's

[1:18:03] why I'm doing this. There's something

[1:18:05] that happens when people sing together

[1:18:07] that can't happen any other way. And

[1:18:09] Nashville.

[1:18:10] And it is Nashville. And you probably

[1:18:12] guys probably sing more than other

[1:18:13] cities. So I'm expecting good stuff. um

[1:18:16] unless you go to church, unless you sing

[1:18:18] in a band, you probably don't do public

[1:18:20] singing. And public singing is really

[1:18:21] important. One of the things that Bnee

[1:18:22] found in her research about

[1:18:23] wholeheartedness is um wholehearted

[1:18:26] people sing and dance. And she kept

[1:18:28] trying to bury that data because she it

[1:18:30] freaked her out. And um and her graduate

[1:18:33] students kept saying, "Bnee, how come

[1:18:35] you never publish? How come you and

[1:18:36] she's I don't want to talk about the

[1:18:37] singing and the dancing." So last time,

[1:18:39] so I saw Bnee two weeks ago and we sang

[1:18:42] together. Um, we sang I Will Survive,

[1:18:44] which was fantastic. Um, with a bunch of

[1:18:47] women in an audience that was really

[1:18:48] great. So, what we're going to sing

[1:18:49] tonight, if you would all take out your

[1:18:50] devices because I know you have them.

[1:18:52] Um, what you're going to do is you're

[1:18:53] going to Google lyrics

[1:18:55] Take Me Home Country Road, John Denver,

[1:18:59] which is my go-to karaoke song because

[1:19:01] it has three notes and anybody can sing

[1:19:05] it and we know most of the words anyway.

[1:19:10] That's what we're going to do. And then

[1:19:10] we're going to walk out of here. And

[1:19:12] we're gonna walk out.

[1:19:14] Don't let me down, Nashville. I want

[1:19:17] hands in the air. I want people standing

[1:19:19] up. Will you stand up?

[1:19:22] Here we go.

[1:19:22] I kind of basically

[1:19:23] a little preparation would have been

[1:19:25] Well, you kind of basically know it

[1:19:26] because you've been singing. I sing it.

[1:19:28] Well, I also sing it every Wednesday at

[1:19:30] um the Rat Karaoke bar in Frenchtown,

[1:19:33] New Jersey in the basement where my

[1:19:36] friends and I plan days in advance what

[1:19:39] our song list is going to be for karaoke

[1:19:41] because it's very important to us.

[1:19:43] Here we go. Here we go.

[1:19:44] Okay.

[1:19:45] Can I get Come on in the middle.

[1:19:47] Yes. Yes.

[1:19:49] I I can't I'm going to sing it low.

[1:19:51] Yeah. You get in the middle because I

[1:19:53] can't even see.

[1:19:54] And then maybe we can make it big.

[1:19:55] Everybody can join. cat. I'll jump in.

[1:19:57] You'll jump in. She's got it.

[1:19:59] I got it. We got it. Ready?

[1:20:02] Almost heaven,

[1:20:05] West Virginia,

[1:20:08] Blue Ridge Mountain,

[1:20:10] Shannondoa

[1:20:12] River.

[1:20:14] Life is old there. Older than the trees,

[1:20:20] younger than the mountains.

[1:20:24] Blowing like a breeze. Country road.

[1:20:29] Take me home

[1:20:32] to the place

[1:20:36] I belong.

[1:20:39] West Virginia

[1:20:43] m

[1:20:49] country road.

[1:20:51] Someone's harmonizing so beautifully.

[1:20:54] All my meories

[1:20:57] around her.

[1:21:00] Miners lady stranger to blue water.

[1:21:06] Everyone does. Dark and dusty

[1:21:09] painted on the sky.

[1:21:13] Misty taste of moonshine.

[1:21:16] Tears in my eye. Country road. would

[1:21:22] take me home

[1:21:25] to the place

[1:21:28] I belong.

[1:21:31] West Virginia,

[1:21:35] Mount M,

[1:21:38] take me home,

[1:21:41] country road.

[1:21:45] I hear her voice in the morning hour.

[1:21:49] She calls me. Radio reminds me of my

[1:21:54] home far away.

[1:21:57] And driving down the road, I get a

[1:22:00] feeling that I should have been home

[1:22:03] yesterday.

[1:22:06] [Music]

[1:22:09] Country road.

[1:22:12] Take me home

[1:22:15] to the place

[1:22:18] I belong.

[1:22:20] [Music]

[1:22:22] West Virginia,

[1:22:25] Mount M,

[1:22:28] take me home,

[1:22:31] country road. One more time.

[1:22:34] Country road.

[1:22:38] Take me home

[1:22:41] to the place

[1:22:43] [Music]

[1:22:44] I belong.

[1:22:47] West Virginia

[1:22:51] mountain.

[1:22:54] Take me home.

[1:22:57] Country road.

[1:23:00] Oh, won't you take me home?

[1:23:03] home

[1:23:04] country roads

[1:23:08] [Applause]

[1:23:16] going around.

[1:23:19] That was so cool.

[1:23:21] Thank you, Nashville. Thank you,

[1:23:30] [Music]

Elizabeth Gilbert
ArtistElizabeth Gilbert

American author whose 2006 memoir Eat Pray Love — a year-long journey through Italy, India, and Indonesia in search of pleasure, devotion, and balance — became one of the most-read…

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CreativityBig-magicCreative-obstaclesArtistic-practiceMagical-thinking

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Elizabeth Gilbert spent 12 years thinking about writing Big Magic before she felt she had the legitimacy to do it. She needed to prove something to herself through writing other books first. But waiting for perfect readiness is an excuse; real obstacles only appear when you show up and actually start the work.
It's both, according to Gilbert—what she calls 'extreme magical thinking and tremendous Yankee pragmatism.' The magic is believing your work matters and that you're meant to make it. The pragmatism is the daily chipping away and confronting real obstacles that appear when you show up.
Pay attention to reasons you're not starting. 'If I had the time, if I had this'—these are fantasies, not obstacles. Real obstacles appear when you actually begin: rejection, failed drafts, market resistance. Excuses are comfortable; actual obstacles demand real solutions.
You can't separate the two, Gilbert says. Your work needs to feed you and reach an audience. Magical thinking about your work's importance actually helps with the practical business of getting it into the world—if you believe it matters, you'll do the unglamorous work of marketing and distribution.
Gilbert demonstrated this by buying Christian Dior flats that caused her pain, committing to 'marrying' them and believing they'd eventually fit. Real commitment means trusting that something uncomfortable now can work out later, and doing the hard work to make that true.
Gilbert wrote three additional books while thinking about Big Magic before feeling ready to write a manifesto on creativity. Legitimacy isn't just about publishing—it's about proving to yourself that your approach works through lived experience.

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