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Inspiration

Emotion Regulation: The Proactive Artof Meeting Your Best Self

Ten Percent Happier
Ten Percent Happier
Sep 21, 2026
9 min di lettura

There's a particular brand of humiliation that comes after losing your temper unnecessarily—the moment you recognize the damage, the apology that follows, the effort to repair what you've broken. Dr. Marc Brackett, founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, calls this the gap between who we are in moments of reactivity and who we want to be. His work, detailed in books including Permission to Feel and his latest Dealing with Feeling, offers a clear alternative: what if you could prepare yourself before the moment arrives, turning emotion regulation from a reactive scramble into a strategic practice?

Lettura · 9 sezioni

What Emotion Regulation Actually Is

The first barrier Brackett encounters isn't lack of desire to regulate emotions—it's misconception. Lawyers tell him they "leave their feelings at the door." Teachers say the same. Parents nod along to advice about emotional mastery. Brackett's response is direct: it's biologically impossible to suppress emotion, so why pretend?

"Emotion regulation is not denying your emotions," Brackett explains. "It's not ignoring your emotions. It's not suppressing your emotions." Instead, emotion regulation is using your emotions wisely to achieve what you want out of your life. The feelings are going to happen anyway—the question is whether you harness them toward your goals or let them run the show.

This distinction matters. Brackett illustrates it through an exercise he conducts with families: parents imaginatively walk through their teenager's day, from morning feelings through each class to end-of-day exhaustion. When asked how many see mostly unpleasant emotions—boredom, overwhelm, stress, fatigue—every hand rises. One father with a "big personality" then asks the natural question: "Hasn't it always been that way? Hasn't everybody always felt like shitty in school?" Brackett's response reframes the entire conversation: "Maybe, but is that what we want for kids? Is that a recipe for creativity, innovation?" The point isn't that emotions vanish; it's that we can shift them when they don't serve us.

Proactive Regulation: Preparing Before the Moment

The real leverage in emotion regulation comes not in the heat of the moment, but in advance. Most people think of emotion regulation as self-control deployed in real time—a white-knuckle effort to manage themselves once triggers have already fired. Brackett advocates for what he calls proactive regulation: setting yourself up for success before the challenging situation even arrives.

His personal example is the doorknob habit. When Brackett returns home after long trips, he's tired, irritable, and genuinely not in the mood for relational engagement. His husband wants to know about the trip; there may be plans to discuss or logistics to handle. In that raw state, Brackett could come through the door broadcasting the worst version of himself: "Don't talk to me. I hate everybody right now. I want to go to bed." Instead, before entering, he grabs the doorknob, takes a deep breath, and speaks to himself: "Okay, Mark, you are not in the mood for anything right now. This person is going to want to know how your trip went. How am I going to meet that in a way that's not going to show off the worst version of myself?"

It's a small ritual, but it contains the entire logic of proactive regulation. The pausing and prep happen before emotion has already hijacked behavior. Brackett uses similar signals throughout his day—before picking up a work call, before entering this podcast recording (taking a breath in the elevator and asking himself, "How do you want to show up today?"). The habit isn't about pretending to feel differently; it's about choosing which version of yourself will respond.

The Best Self: A Practical Inner Reference

The concept of "best self" has been softened by overuse. Oprah and Michelle Obama have invoked it; wellness culture has made it a cliché. Yet Brackett's application is surprisingly concrete. He doesn't mean some aspirational fantasy of perfection. He means a specific inner character—an actual reference point you can consult when you're about to react.

Brackett came by the "feelings master" label almost accidentally. On his first day teaching at Yale, a student writing for the Yale Daily News published an article with that title. His colleagues' reactions made him uncomfortable. But Brackett decided to lean in: "You know what, Mark, you are the freaking feelings bastard. Live into it, buddy." That's the spirit of the best self—not false positivity, but a deliberate embodiment of the version of you that can handle difficulty with intention.

Host Dan Harris has developed his own trio of internal characters to consult: Robert (a martial artist character), Arthur (another reference), and Teacher Dan. When a challenging moment arrives, he can ask which character should respond. This isn't dissociation or role-play; it's creating psychological distance from reactivity by having a menu of selves to choose from. Your best self is not a doormat—fierce compassion is on the menu. The distinction matters because emotion regulation can be mistaken for niceness, suppression, or conflict avoidance. It's the opposite. Your best self can be fierce; it's just intentional about it.

The Five-Step Meta Moment

To make this concrete, Brackett offers a five-step protocol he calls the Meta Moment: Sense, Stop, See your best self, Strategize, and Self-assess.

  • Sense: Notice what's happening in your body and emotions before you act.
  • Stop: Pause—the doorknob breath, the elevator check-in, the moment before you speak.
  • See your best self: Consult that inner reference point. Who do you want to be right now?
  • Strategize: Choose a specific action aligned with that self.
  • Self-assess: Afterward, reflect on how it went and what you'd do differently.

Brackett shares a vivid example from his own life. He struggled with social anxiety at industry dinners, leading him to eat compulsively as a form of self-soothing. Instead of white-knuckling through abstinence, he applied the Meta Moment. His best self in that context wasn't someone who ate nothing; it was someone who could enjoy food without using it as an escape hatch from discomfort. The shift came not from willpower but from accessing a different version of himself to lead the response.

Harris has used a similar reframe for his own Zoom-meeting anxiety. Instead of fighting the nervousness, he tells himself, "It's showtime." This simple cognitive shift—reframing anxiety as energy for performance—changes which part of his nervous system gets activated. The anxiety doesn't disappear; it gets repurposed.

Flexible Regulation: Different Strategies for Different Emotions

A critical insight: no single emotion regulation strategy works for all emotions. Brackett uses the term "poly" regulation—the practice of flexibly matching strategy to the specific emotion at hand.

Overwhelm, for instance, responds well to micro-breaks. When you're drowning in too much input, pushing harder doesn't help. A brief pause—stepping outside, a few deep breaths, five minutes away from screens—recalibrates your capacity. Anxiety, by contrast, often needs self-talk or cognitive reframing. The "it's showtime" shift Harris uses works because it redirects anxious energy toward purpose. Relationship conflicts, however, often require perspective from outside your own mind—talking with a trusted friend who can reflect back what you're missing.

The key is recognizing which emotion you're actually dealing with, then applying the regulation strategy that fits. A breath technique might calm overwhelm but won't resolve relational hurt. A conversation might help with loneliness but won't manage acute panic. Emotional intelligence includes knowing the difference.

Worst Self as Teacher

Brackett's own worst-self moment came in the form of a "movie-book fight" with his neighbor that got so loud the neighbor later asked him if there were wolves in his backyard. Looking back, Brackett can see exactly where the Meta Moment failed—where he reverted to automatic, habitual reaction instead of choosing his response. That failure taught him something that success never could.

Rather than shame himself, Brackett treats the worst-self moment as data. What triggered the reaction? What was actually happening underneath the rage? How had he set himself up to be reactive? The practice becomes one of curiosity rather than judgment, a principle he illustrates through a story about his Aunt Sandy and a diamond ring.

Curiosity as the Antidote to Reactivity

Brackett describes a family situation where reactivity could have sparked unnecessary conflict. Instead of leaping to interpretation, he approached it with genuine curiosity: "Why might this be?" That question—asked without defensiveness—opened a conversation that reactivity would have closed. Aunt Sandy's perspective, once understood, made sense. The conflict dissolved because Brackett chose to understand before reacting.

This is emotion regulation as a creative process, not a rigid technique. Brackett uses a metaphor: "Be like water." Water doesn't fight obstacles; it flows around them, finding the shape of the container. Applied to emotion, this means not fighting what you feel, but flowing with it toward your actual goals. You feel angry—okay, what is the anger trying to tell you? You feel anxious—what does the anxiety want to protect you from? You feel overwhelmed—what's the signal underneath?

The Improbable Seeding: Uncle Marvin

The origin of Brackett's life work traces back, improbably, to a family member. Uncle Marvin, living in Westchester, embodied an emotional aliveness and intelligence that young Brackett recognized as unusual. That relationship planted something that would eventually grow into a career dedicated to teaching others emotional skill. The personal lineage matters: Brackett didn't arrive at this work through abstract theory alone, but through witnessing what emotional intelligence looked like lived out in a human being he loved.

Where to Go from Here

The practices Brackett outlines aren't complicated, but they're also not automatic. The doorknob breath requires intention. The Meta Moment requires pausing when your instinct is to react. Consulting your best self requires that you've actually spent time figuring out who that is. Yet the payoff is substantial: fewer moments you regret, more moments where you actually show up as the person you want to be, and the cumulative effect of those moments on your relationships, your work, and your own sense of integrity.

Start small. Pick one transition point in your day—entering your home, starting a meeting, moving between tasks—and build the micro-practice there. Notice what happens when you pause. Get curious about what your emotions are trying to tell you before you act on them. Over time, the habit of proactive regulation becomes less effortful, more available. The worst version of yourself doesn't disappear, but you develop a reliable way to choose something different when it matters most.

Transcript

[0:04] Hello everybody. Welcome to the 10%

[0:05] Happier Podcast. I'm your host Dan

[0:07] Harris. One of the worst feelings in my

[0:10] experience is when I lose my [ __ ] And

[0:14] uh it's even worse when I lose my [ __ ]

[0:16] unnecessarily, the humiliating process

[0:19] of looking back at that uh and then

[0:21] having to make amends, etc., etc. So,

[0:23] what can you do in advance to prevent

[0:27] these moments from happening? That's

[0:29] what we're going to talk about today

[0:31] with my guest Dr. Mark Brackett who is

[0:33] the founding director of the Yale Center

[0:35] for Emotional Intelligence and the

[0:37] author of several books including his

[0:39] latest Dealing with Feeling. You may

[0:41] remember that I had uh Dr. Brackett on

[0:43] the show a few months ago. You guys love

[0:45] that conversation so much that we're

[0:48] bringing him back.

[0:49] >> Dr. Bracket, welcome back to the show.

[0:51] >> It's nice to be back again.

[0:52] >> You're a fan favorite.

[0:53] >> I like and I like this in person one.

[0:55] >> Yes, it's so much is so much better in

[0:57] person. It's more interesting.

[0:58] >> I'm really trying to move this show to

[1:01] in person, which involves a lot of

[1:03] commuting for me, but it's worth it.

[1:05] >> It is.

[1:06] >> Let's just do a a broad definition of

[1:09] emotion regulation. You're you have

[1:12] sometimes been called the feelings

[1:13] master, which I love. So, given that

[1:16] you're the feelings master, like what

[1:18] does emotion regulation actually mean?

[1:20] >> Okay, maybe we should talk about what

[1:21] it's not. How about that?

[1:22] >> Sure.

[1:23] >> So, it's not denying your emotions. It's

[1:27] not ignoring your emotions. It's not

[1:29] suppressing your emotions, which is what

[1:31] a lot of people think it is. I did a

[1:33] talk for lawyers recently. They're like,

[1:34] "Oh, so like we just like we just like

[1:36] leave our feelings at the door." I'm

[1:37] like,

[1:39] [laughter] like I wish that were

[1:40] biologically possible. You know,

[1:42] teachers say that too. I just, you know,

[1:44] I have my life is so chaotic as a

[1:45] teacher. I just leave my emotions at the

[1:46] door. I'm like, they're gonna pop up.

[1:49] So, it's not about denying your

[1:51] emotional life at the broadest level.

[1:53] It's about using your emotions wisely to

[1:56] achieve what you want out of your life,

[1:58] which is a broad definition.

[2:00] >> So emotion regulation properly

[2:02] understood is using your emotions so

[2:05] that you can achieve what you want in

[2:06] your life.

[2:07] >> Correct?

[2:08] >> So emotions are going to happen anyway.

[2:10] So you might as well harness them to get

[2:12] you to your goal.

[2:13] >> Correct. I did a speech for a bunch of

[2:15] families recently and um I asked them to

[2:19] do an exercise uh which I had the

[2:22] parents reflect on uh their child like

[2:25] live vicariously through your child who

[2:27] is a teenager right now just close your

[2:28] eyes and for two minutes we're going to

[2:30] it's the morning how you feeling it's

[2:33] now it's you're walking into school how

[2:34] are you feeling class one class 2 class

[2:36] 3 class 4 and then the end of the day

[2:40] and I said how many of you saw more

[2:42] unpleasant feelings everybody raised

[2:44] their hand. And so I said, "Well, let's

[2:47] talk about that. You know, why is that

[2:49] the case?" And so one dad who had a big

[2:51] personality, he um he looks at me, he's

[2:54] like, "You know, Mark, hasn't it always

[2:55] been that way? Hasn't everybody always

[2:57] felt like shitty in school and bored and

[2:59] tired and overwhelmed and stressed?" And

[3:01] I said, "Maybe, but like is that what we

[3:05] want for kids?" Like, is that a recipe

[3:08] for creativity, innovation?

[3:10] You know, and so I think that people

[3:12] often times think that emotions are

[3:14] emotions. You have them, you experience

[3:16] them, but there's nothing you can do

[3:18] with them. And I'm saying that is the

[3:21] opposite of what emotional intelligence

[3:23] and emotion regulation is. Emotion

[3:25] regulation is saying here's a feeling I

[3:28] can see is this helpful or unhelpful for

[3:30] what I want to achieve and if it's not

[3:32] helpful, I can shift it. Okay. So,

[3:35] there's a lot here and this is such a

[3:37] huge topic. We're not going to be able

[3:39] to cover all the pieces. I do want to

[3:41] say that if people want to learn more,

[3:42] they can also obviously read your books

[3:45] >> or go back and watch uh or listen to the

[3:48] previous episode when you recorded.

[3:49] Okay. But today specifically, we're

[3:51] going to talk about what I think is

[3:53] called proactive regulation. What you

[3:55] can do in advance

[3:56] >> to like when you know you've got a

[3:58] potentially triggering situation, what

[4:00] you can do in advance to set yourself up

[4:02] for success.

[4:03] >> Correct. I think most people again when

[4:05] they think about emotion regulation

[4:07] because some people obviously think

[4:09] about it. I think the mindset is like

[4:10] self-control. I'm going to control

[4:12] myself. You know, I'm going to like deal

[4:15] with this in the moment. And what I want

[4:17] to encourage people to think about is

[4:20] how can I be better prepared for the

[4:22] moment that's probably going to happen

[4:23] anyway? Like I don't know about you, I

[4:25] travel a lot and so my uh husband is

[4:29] home sometimes and I get back from this

[4:31] long trip and I'm irritable. I am tired

[4:35] and I don't feel like actually, you

[4:37] know, in that moment being in a

[4:38] relationship. [laughter]

[4:40] And then it's like, you know, maybe we

[4:42] had plans or maybe there was something

[4:43] that needed to get done or whatever it

[4:44] is. And I before I walk into my house, I

[4:48] like I grab the doororknob, take a deep

[4:51] breath, and I'm like, "Okay, Mark, you

[4:53] are not in the mood for anything right

[4:54] now." Yes, that's true. You are not.

[4:57] You're tired. You're irritable. Whatever

[4:58] it is, this person is going to want to

[5:00] like know how your trip went. like are

[5:02] we going out for dinner tonight or

[5:03] whatever the heck it is. And so how am I

[5:06] going to meet that in a way that's not

[5:07] going to show off the worst version of

[5:10] myself because I have a choice. I can

[5:12] come in and be like, you know, don't

[5:14] talk to me. I hate you right now. I hate

[5:16] everybody right now. I don't want to,

[5:17] you know, I want to go to bed and I

[5:18] don't want to talk to anybody. Like

[5:19] that's not great for my relationship. So

[5:21] how can I be the best version of myself

[5:24] in those moments? And that's having a

[5:26] bit more of pausing and prep time. And

[5:29] for you that pausing and prep time is

[5:31] just hand on the doororknob.

[5:32] >> It's a reminder. So I have like little

[5:35] uh signals for myself. It's before I

[5:37] pick up a call. If that's going to be

[5:39] like a a work call, it's before I um

[5:43] come home, before I open the door to my

[5:45] house. Um it could be, you know, even um

[5:50] like today coming into this podcast, I

[5:52] was in a taxi. It was running late. I'm

[5:53] like, what's going on here? Like come

[5:55] on, let's move it. I get into the

[5:57] elevator. I

[5:59] you know, I have to check in. And then

[6:01] right before the person came out to

[6:02] greet me, I took a deep breath and I'm

[6:04] like, "Okay, Mark, how do you want to

[6:07] show up today?" It's just a habit. The

[6:09] concept you've come back to a couple

[6:11] times is uh being your best self, and I

[6:15] say this all the time on the show. Uh I

[6:18] said it in an interview just yesterday.

[6:21] One of the recurring themes in hosting

[6:23] the show for more than 10 years is that

[6:26] ideas that I previously dismissed as

[6:30] psycho babble [ __ ] are actually

[6:32] really helpful. So these can include uh

[6:35] your inner child or uh going to your

[6:37] happy place or being in the present

[6:39] moment. All these like sort of apex

[6:42] predator spiritual psychological uh

[6:45] cliches. They're actually there's

[6:47] something to them and that is true with

[6:49] this idea of being your best self,

[6:51] >> you know, because everybody Oprah talks

[6:53] about it, Michelle Obama talks about it,

[6:54] everybody talks about like be your best.

[6:57] It can be um superficial. Not that

[7:01] they're I think they're thinking about

[7:02] it in a very strategic way. I apply it

[7:05] specifically to regulation and I think

[7:07] that matters. And so in moments when you

[7:11] know, you call me the feelings master.

[7:13] So just a quick story about that. So my

[7:15] very first day or class I taught at Yale

[7:18] um the one of the students in my class

[7:20] it was a big class had like 500 students

[7:23] and he wrote for the the Yale Daily News

[7:25] and he wrote this article the feelings

[7:28] master and it was a little embarrassing

[7:30] like brand new on campus it's like other

[7:33] colleagues like what are you going to

[7:34] think of me and then I I just read the

[7:37] article I thought it was a nicely

[7:38] written article about my course and I I

[7:41] was like you know what Mark you are the

[7:43] freaking feelings bastard

[7:44] >> [laughter]

[7:45] >> like live into it, buddy. You know, like

[7:48] get your posture like the feel, you

[7:50] know, like at a place like Yale, you get

[7:52] students who can be sometimes

[7:53] challenging, you know, like oftenimes

[7:55] challenging. I love my students for the

[7:58] most part. They're bright students who

[7:59] are motivated, inspiring, but once in a

[8:02] while I get one that can trigger me, you

[8:04] know, like the one that says something

[8:05] like, you know, Professor Bracket, I've

[8:07] got a question, but you know, I'm not

[8:08] really sure you'll know the answer,

[8:10] right? And I'm like, okay, this is going

[8:13] to be a good one. And so in those

[8:15] moments there's Mark like the Jersey boy

[8:18] who wants to like punch the kid in

[8:20] [laughter] the face and then there's

[8:22] Mark the Felix master.

[8:24] >> Right. Right.

[8:24] >> And so like it is a place to go for

[8:27] inspiration. It is a place to go to

[8:29] shift your values. It is a place to go

[8:31] to have better solutions.

[8:33] >> And so we can all have this version of

[8:37] ourselves. Um I I'll give you mine. Um

[8:39] I've worked for a long time with this

[8:41] executive coach. His name is Jerry

[8:43] Colona. He's great. He's been on the

[8:44] show many times. And with him, I had

[8:48] mentioned that I have these two like

[8:50] demons I wrestle with in my mind that I

[8:52] had given names to. One is Robert, named

[8:55] after my grandfather, who was a very

[8:56] angry dude. And that was kind of just

[8:58] like the personification of my penchant

[9:01] for anger. And the other was Arthur, who

[9:03] was a great-grandfather of mine, who I

[9:05] never met, who was a crook, uh who was

[9:06] the personification of my like sort of

[9:09] hustler, ambitious, greedy energy. And

[9:12] he kept saying, "But bro, there's a

[9:15] third character you're overlooking." Uh,

[9:17] he called him teacher Dan, like your

[9:20] capacity to help people with their

[9:22] problems. Great.

[9:23] >> And that is my feelings master. When I'm

[9:26] Yeah. When I want to psych myself up to

[9:28] be the best version of myself, that's

[9:29] what I'm trying to inhabit.

[9:31] >> And that version of yourself probably

[9:32] has attributes.

[9:35] >> Yes.

[9:36] >> And that's what I want people to think

[9:37] about. what are the attributes

[9:39] >> of your, you know, self-help guru, you

[9:43] know, which is yourself in this moment.

[9:45] And it works. It just works really. I

[9:47] mean, I go, I've taught this now for 20

[9:48] years to millions of people and people

[9:52] really find it helpful because it's like

[9:55] a shortcut to, you know, you there's a

[9:57] lot going on when you're dealing with

[9:59] your feelings. But if you can break it

[10:00] into a simple process of a for the

[10:05] proactive piece that we're talking about

[10:06] today, anticipatory. So I can pretty

[10:09] much tell when I'm going into a

[10:12] situation like I was giving a speech in

[10:14] a red state. Now I say that because my

[10:16] work is now being, you know, banned in

[10:19] some red states.

[10:20] >> Really?

[10:20] >> Yes. There is antisocial emotional

[10:22] learning legislation trying to be

[10:24] passed. Really?

[10:25] >> Yeah. So the idea is we should just go

[10:27] right for unrestrained rage.

[10:30] >> It's, you know, this the opposite too.

[10:32] It's like, oh, teaching kids how to

[10:34] regulate is actually like a form of

[10:36] fragility, which makes no sense. So

[10:39] there's a lot of push back. Um, I was

[10:41] giving a speech um to about 500

[10:44] superintendent and I was warned that the

[10:47] person who was the head of the whole

[10:48] union was like really against this work.

[10:52] So I'm going I'm in the hotel, right? I

[10:54] go down for breakfast like I'm doing the

[10:56] 9:00 a.m. opening keynote. I don't even

[10:57] know why I'm invited to this freaking

[10:59] place and all of a sudden I was becoming

[11:01] the self-sabotur. Like this is

[11:03] ridiculous. You're too advanced in your

[11:05] career for this. Why you doing this to

[11:06] yourself? I mean I they're going to

[11:07] throw tomatoes at you. You know I was

[11:09] just going down the rabbit hole of

[11:11] negativity. And then you know I'm like

[11:13] Mark where's the feelings master? Like

[11:16] this is not going to be helpful. like

[11:18] you know that getting on stage with that

[11:20] mishagus in your head is just not going

[11:23] to be good. So like okay, how do I want

[11:28] to be seen? How do I want to be talked

[11:30] about? How do I want to be experienced

[11:31] on that stage? It's like oh okay. I'm

[11:34] like I'm like I'm I'm one of the world's

[11:36] leading experts. Like I know this [ __ ]

[11:38] better than anybody else, you know? I'm

[11:40] going to I'm going to I have the

[11:42] opportunity to convince 500

[11:44] superintendents who reach millions of

[11:45] kids to learn the science of emotion

[11:48] regulation to improve learning and

[11:51] improve teacher retention. This is an

[11:53] opportunity. Do you follow? Like it's

[11:55] just a complete reframing or

[11:57] reappraisal.

[11:57] >> Yes.

[11:58] >> But the best self creating that image of

[12:01] myself like sitting at breakfast being

[12:03] like completely negative like okay we're

[12:06] going to put that on pause. We're going

[12:08] to think 15, 20 minutes ahead of time.

[12:10] I'm on that stage. What do I want to

[12:13] look like? You know, how do I want to

[12:14] sound? Etc.

[12:16] >> There are so many times in my life, and

[12:17] I suspect this is true for you, where

[12:19] you just need a little reset, some

[12:21] little hack to get you out of a thought

[12:23] spiral or to help you fall back to sleep

[12:26] when you wake up at 3:00 in the morning

[12:27] or help you recover from some sort of

[12:29] temper tantrum. You know what I'm

[12:31] talking about. Which brings me uh to a

[12:34] little meditation challenge we're

[12:36] launching over on my app 10% with Dan

[12:38] Harris. Starting today, September 21st,

[12:41] we're kicking off a 5-day meditation

[12:43] challenge. It's called Reset, and it's

[12:45] all about getting back on solid ground

[12:47] when life throws you for a loop, which

[12:49] is inevitable in all of our lives. This

[12:51] challenge is guided by the amazing Diana

[12:53] Winston, who's a really legendary and

[12:57] fascinating and very nice meditation

[12:59] teacher. And crucially, she has crafted

[13:02] each daily practice to be something you

[13:04] can actually do in a moment of suffering

[13:06] when you're struggling in some way,

[13:08] large or small. These practices can

[13:10] literally help you reset. September 21st

[13:12] through the 25th, reset with Diana and

[13:14] friends and me over on the uh 10% with

[13:17] Dan Harris app. You can sign up now at

[13:19] danharris.com.

[13:21] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

[13:23] If I could wake up tomorrow and be

[13:25] better at one thing, it would be having

[13:29] uh a calmer, less anxious nervous system

[13:32] so that I could enjoy my life more. I

[13:35] have made massive amounts of progress in

[13:37] this regard in the past 20 years as a

[13:40] result of meditation and therapy and

[13:42] getting better at tending to my

[13:44] interpersonal relationships. But it's

[13:48] really a neverending process. Hence the

[13:50] name of the show, 10% happier. As I

[13:52] often argue, the 10% compounds annually.

[13:55] Better is a feeling defined by you. And

[13:57] for better help, it's a better health

[14:00] therapist who really gets you. It's a

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[14:03] with thousands of therapists and

[14:06] millions of members in over a 100

[14:07] countries. It's progress and it's also

[14:10] getting better at regulating your

[14:12] nervous system or whatever is important

[14:13] to you. And I know that having a

[14:14] therapist has been very helpful to me in

[14:17] this regard. Sign up and get 10% off at

[14:19] betterhelp.com/happier.

[14:21] That's betterhp.com/happier.

[14:25] One of the through lines here is that

[14:26] you're talking to yourself.

[14:28] >> Yeah, I do. I'm maybe I'm just an erotic

[14:30] guy. I do a lot of selft talk.

[14:31] [laughter]

[14:32] >> But there's there's um from what I've

[14:34] seen quite a bit of evidence to support

[14:38] the right kind of selft talk. Correct.

[14:39] Because we're doing the wrong kind of

[14:41] selft talk all the time. I'm calling

[14:43] myself a schmuck or an [ __ ] all the

[14:45] time. Let's say constructive selft talk

[14:48] is you know you I'm sure you're familiar

[14:50] with Ethan Cross's work at at the

[14:52] University of Michigan. There's a lot of

[14:54] evidence to show that we can talk

[14:55] ourselves into being the best version of

[14:58] ourselves.

[14:58] >> Exactly. Actually um we're friends and

[15:01] we talk a lot about this together. Um

[15:04] 100% right. And he you know he studies

[15:06] something called distance selft talk

[15:07] which is a really helpful technique

[15:09] which is Mark you got this. you you

[15:12] literally talk to yourself as you as if

[15:14] you would talk to a friend. And there

[15:16] are lots of these tricks in terms of

[15:18] moving out of the self-sabotur, you

[15:21] know, into the person who is going to

[15:23] achieve their goals. But I think that's

[15:26] the key here, which is that the big

[15:29] piece of this is the awareness. Like I

[15:35] was self-aware to know that I was really

[15:38] negative and I was self-aware enough to

[15:41] know that like that wasn't going to be

[15:43] good for my presentation. I don't want

[15:45] to show up, you know, in fear or anxiety

[15:48] or kind of like anticipating negativity.

[15:50] Like I'm the one in charge here. I'm the

[15:52] one standing on stage. All right. What's

[15:54] it going to be like? What do what do you

[15:55] want to make out of this? And how do you

[15:57] and how does that frame the way and

[15:59] communicate to the audience? And that's

[16:01] like communicating to my husband or your

[16:04] wife or your kids or your colleague at

[16:06] work. It's the same thing. I do the same

[16:08] thing at work, you know. Um sometimes if

[16:11] I know we're going to have like a tough

[16:12] meeting about a grant or something like

[16:14] that, I'm like, "Okay, the news is not

[16:16] great. We didn't get the grant." I can

[16:18] go in as Mark's true self and be like,

[16:22] "I can't take it anymore. This is

[16:24] [ __ ] We've read all these grants

[16:25] and nobody understands our work and this

[16:27] is not going to I don't know what to

[16:28] do." and then my team is like you know

[16:30] the diarrhea they're like looking for

[16:32] another job right like how is that

[16:34] helpful for like the culture and climate

[16:36] of my team or I can go in and say all

[16:41] right I can prepare in advance say okay

[16:43] Mark how do you want to show up and how

[16:46] do you want to manage your

[16:46] disappointment and frustration but also

[16:49] let people know that this is an

[16:52] opportunity to rethink and grow and that

[16:56] just automatically like brain goes goes

[16:58] in a different direction and I walk in

[17:00] there, same news saying, "Listen, you

[17:05] know, it's really disappointing. I

[17:06] really thought we were going to get this

[17:08] grant and I feel terrible that we didn't

[17:11] get it." And so, I don't want to focus

[17:13] on why we didn't get it. I want to focus

[17:15] on what's next. So, let's think together

[17:17] about let's look at the feedback and

[17:20] let's come up with our best plan of

[17:21] action so that we can have a better

[17:23] chance the next time. I got your back.

[17:25] Let's do it. We can do this. let's just

[17:27] put on our critical thinking hat. And

[17:28] then all of a sudden, people feel like I

[17:30] care about them. They're inspired to

[17:32] really work hard as opposed to feel

[17:34] like, you know, there's no future.

[17:36] >> It's interesting you use the phrase true

[17:38] self. I don't want to show up as my true

[17:40] self. It would have been a negative

[17:41] Nancy. But there I don't think there is

[17:42] a true self. All self isual.

[17:46] >> It is. But we have, you know, like a big

[17:50] part of my work, this is more recent

[17:52] research, is about non-judgmental kind

[17:55] of actions and and thought processes.

[17:58] Um, like we're just taught to be

[18:02] completely selfjudgmental and judgmental

[18:05] of others. Like just you're born and you

[18:07] just become like biased and judgmental.

[18:10] And so

[18:12] unfortunately, you know, my true self

[18:15] sometimes is like, you know, [laughter]

[18:19] just quick aside. So I was on this other

[18:22] podcast recently and a friend of mine

[18:25] from childhood uh reached out to me.

[18:27] She's like, I you know, we haven't seen

[18:28] each other in 45 years. I'm like, I

[18:31] know. And and then I had this memory of

[18:33] her, we were like teenagers, and we were

[18:35] going to go into business, which is this

[18:38] is the story. So it was in the Jersey

[18:39] Shore and our business was going to be

[18:41] that we were going to ask people to pay

[18:43] us for us to tell them what we really

[18:46] thought about them. [laughter]

[18:49] So like like you know like if if you

[18:52] like you know I walk in the park with my

[18:54] dogs in the morning I'm looking at all

[18:55] these people like you know like that's a

[18:57] whack this what's this you know like

[18:58] we're we're pretty much criticizing you

[19:01] know a lot. So point is my true self

[19:05] might be, you know, like you got to be

[19:08] freaking kidding me, Dan. Like are you

[19:10] really whatever it is, you know, with my

[19:12] husband, with my friends, family, and

[19:14] but that's your maybe your true self,

[19:16] your authentic self. But then, okay, is

[19:20] that the self that's going to preserve

[19:22] my relationship? Is that the self that

[19:24] is going to help motivate my team? No.

[19:27] So sometimes your true self needs to be

[19:29] suppressed a little bit so the best

[19:31] version of yourself comes out.

[19:33] >> But I'm arguing and you're the feelings

[19:35] master so how dare I argue with you. But

[19:37] I'm arguing that true is a misnomer

[19:40] because that's just a version of

[19:41] yourself and the best version of

[19:43] yourself is no less true.

[19:45] >> Well and maybe like my uncle who is my

[19:47] hero in life would say that everybody in

[19:49] every moment is doing the best they can.

[19:51] >> Yes. And so in I'm like in the moment my

[19:54] true self is just whatever is coming out

[19:56] like I'm call it authentic self call it

[19:59] momentary self.

[20:00] >> What about reflexive self?

[20:02] >> Reflexive self. Sure.

[20:03] >> It's just it's just your reaction

[20:05] >> your automatic. Yes. That's fine. Which

[20:07] often times is not helpful?

[20:10] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[20:11] >> Like most of the time.

[20:12] >> Yeah. That's my experience.

[20:14] >> Yeah. So that's because we're not

[20:16] trained to take the meta moment to step

[20:19] back, take a breath, pause, think about

[20:22] the consequences, think about the

[20:24] outcome we want. And if we do that, then

[20:27] sometimes we got to put that reflexive

[20:29] self on hold and be our best selves.

[20:34] >> Okay. So, you just used this phrase meta

[20:36] moment to uh and I think this is crucial

[20:39] and I believe you've got a five-step

[20:41] process that would allow us to achieve a

[20:44] meta moment. In other words,

[20:45] >> this gets us back to proactive

[20:47] regulation. What can we do in advance so

[20:49] that we have the ability to pause and

[20:52] not be reactive? Can we walk through

[20:55] what these steps are?

[20:56] >> First, I want to acknowledge my

[20:57] colleague Robin Stern who is uh my

[21:00] co-creator of this concept. Uh we've

[21:03] gosh I'm now I'm having all these

[21:05] memories today. So Robin's late husband

[21:08] was um a great guy. Uh, but one he was

[21:12] this like big Italian guy who was like

[21:15] very reactive and you know Robin and I

[21:17] were the type that we'd work together

[21:18] late at night and we'd be on back in the

[21:20] day Skype and she'd be walking around

[21:22] her house on Skype with and her husband

[21:24] would be hearing me like let's think

[21:25] about how we want to call this best self

[21:27] and let's think about this and and he

[21:29] would like like lit if I have to hear

[21:32] about this effing best self. [laughter]

[21:34] >> You can say [ __ ] on the show by the way.

[21:36] You don't have to censor yourself.

[21:37] >> Thank you. And so not everybody wants to

[21:40] learn this. By the way,

[21:41] >> people listening to this show wantanna

[21:43] want want to learn it. Absolutely. I

[21:44] agree. There are a lot of people don't

[21:46] want to learn.

[21:46] >> This is like I'm gonna just be my I had

[21:48] actually somebody once say to me, "My

[21:50] best self tells someone to go [ __ ]

[21:51] themselves."

[21:52] >> Oh, okay. Well, this is a key question.

[21:54] So, this is You're not pointing just to

[21:57] resistance to emotion regulation like

[21:59] we're seeing in some of the red states.

[22:01] You're just pointing, I think, to the

[22:03] fact that a lot of people have, I think,

[22:06] a justifiable concern that their best

[22:09] self is going to make them into a

[22:11] punching bag, a doormat, a paluca.

[22:13] >> Not cool. And that's something that's

[22:15] important to just talk about up front.

[22:18] Your best self should not be a doormat.

[22:20] Your best self should not be gaslighted.

[22:22] Your best self is the self that will

[22:26] help you preserve your dignity and also

[22:30] the other person's dignity. And I think

[22:31] that's a big piece of it. So if you are

[22:34] in a relationship where you are being

[22:37] gaslighted and like say your husband,

[22:40] wife or whatever is saying like gosh

[22:41] mark you you are so sensitive and then

[22:45] you're like maybe I am too sensitive.

[22:46] Maybe I shouldn't be you know speaking

[22:48] my voice. No you're an [ __ ]

[22:52] >> [laughter]

[22:54] >> like my best self is like I'm going to

[22:56] tell you how you know what's going on

[22:58] here and either you're going to ship up

[22:59] or I'm going to ship out. So I think the

[23:01] best self is not always kind and loving.

[23:04] The best self sometimes is very strong

[23:06] and assertive.

[23:06] >> Yes. Well although I would argue coming

[23:08] as I do out of the Buddhist tradition

[23:11] they talk about fierce compassion. So

[23:13] you can actually be loving but still

[23:15] fierce. There's a great uh story of I

[23:19] believe it was Sharon Salsberg the

[23:20] legendary meditation teacher was in

[23:22] India and she was just learning about

[23:23] Buddhism and she

[23:25] >> was sitting with all of these monks who

[23:27] were telling talking about compassion

[23:29] and she said well what do I do if I go

[23:30] outside and somebody tries to mug me and

[23:32] one of the teachers said well you

[23:33] compassionately whack them with your

[23:35] umbrella.

[23:35] >> Exactly. It's funny I was we're making a

[23:38] film about the work I do in schools and

[23:40] I was interviewing someone from a very

[23:42] conservative think tank in DC recently.

[23:45] He's like, "The problem I have with your

[23:46] work, you know, is that if my kid is

[23:49] being bullied at school, you're telling

[23:51] them that you should just talk about

[23:53] their feelings." And then I'm like, "No,

[23:55] I I didn't write that." He's like, "I'm

[23:56] going to tell my kid to punch the kid in

[23:58] the face." [laughter]

[23:59] I said, "Well, maybe there's some

[24:00] strateg."

[24:04] But I do agree. I'm a martial artist.

[24:07] Like strike one, strike two, strike

[24:09] three, you know, like I got to protect

[24:11] myself. This is not cool. So, I'm not

[24:13] saying that being assertive or even

[24:16] sometimes aggressive is bad. I'm saying

[24:18] let's not create a world where that's

[24:20] the automatic response to everything,

[24:22] which is what it feels like right now.

[24:24] >> Before we get to the five-step process,

[24:26] how did it go with the red state

[24:27] superintendent?

[24:28] >> Amazing. Nobody Amazing.

[24:30] >> Okay, great.

[24:31] >> Yep. Nobody Nobody

[24:32] >> feelings master. This is amazing.

[24:34] >> I mean, I just I I decided like they're

[24:36] not going to want to hear my whole

[24:38] stick. They're gonna I'm gonna stick to

[24:39] the science. I'm going to stick to the

[24:41] outcomes. Like, how many of you in the

[24:43] room would love for your teachers to be

[24:45] less burnt out? Yes. How many of you

[24:48] would like them to be better able to

[24:50] manage stress? Yes. You know, how many

[24:53] of you would like the students in your

[24:55] classrooms to be more focused and

[24:57] attentive and better learners? Yes. I'm

[25:00] like, well, that's why I'm here today

[25:01] instead of like, let's get into a

[25:03] circle, hold hands, and sing kumbaya,

[25:06] which is what people sometimes think the

[25:07] work that we do is

[25:08] >> clearly. Yeah. which is not at all what

[25:10] it is,

[25:10] >> right? No, it's just a that's a it's a

[25:12] warping.

[25:13] >> Yeah.

[25:14] >> A caricature. All right. So, back to the

[25:16] five steps to to prepare ourselves.

[25:19] >> I'm a little bit of a divergent thinker.

[25:21] >> No, go. Nonlinearity is fine.

[25:23] >> All right. Good. But let's I I do think

[25:25] that it's a good idea to like All right,

[25:26] let's bang this out. So, step one, sense

[25:30] >> sense.

[25:31] >> The sense the shift the shift in your

[25:34] mind. This is meditation. This is

[25:36] mindfulness. It's awareness of Mark,

[25:40] you're getting negative here. Mark, your

[25:42] heart is racing. Mark, you're clenching

[25:45] your fists. Mark, you're gritting your

[25:46] teeth. It's just a a a tremendous amount

[25:49] of self-awareness around that. You

[25:52] anticipate or you are in the moment

[25:55] experiencing a shift in your feelings.

[25:59] >> So, just notice, okay, I'm things are

[26:02] going along fine. I'm in a conversation

[26:04] with my wife or my child or my a

[26:06] colleague and all of a sudden big blast

[26:08] of anger. Can you catch it?

[26:09] >> Yes. Can you catch it? And you might not

[26:11] even know what the feeling is to be

[26:13] frank. You just know that there's

[26:14] something something has happened.

[26:15] Something in the environment in my

[26:17] thought process or in the external world

[26:19] around me has um created a shift. That's

[26:22] step one. Now the the important piece of

[26:25] that is that typically for many of us,

[26:28] we revert to automatic habitual

[26:31] reactions.

[26:33] Right? I trigger me, I go for the

[26:35] jugular, you know, I'm going to just

[26:37] true self, reflexive self just comes out

[26:40] without any thought because there's no

[26:42] real access to reflection in that

[26:45] moment. You're in survival mode. And

[26:47] that's where we have to be really

[26:49] skilled at training ourselves. This is

[26:51] why being proactive is so much better

[26:56] because in the moment when someone tells

[26:59] me to go [ __ ] myself now that I have

[27:01] permission to say the word I'm going to

[27:03] be like no no no you go [ __ ] yourself

[27:04] right [laughter]

[27:06] cuz that's just it's like I don't know I

[27:08] can't think I'm just like you've

[27:10] attacked me no you go it's it's going to

[27:12] be this back and forth and we're going

[27:13] to get escalated that's the automatic

[27:15] habitual

[27:17] reflexive response doesn't really get

[27:19] you far in many instances is. So the

[27:22] meta moment says no no no no no step two

[27:26] breathe step back say something to

[27:29] yourself like mark don't say it mark you

[27:32] got this whatever you need to just build

[27:35] the space because in that space is where

[27:38] the magic happens and what we have to do

[27:41] is help people just build that re

[27:43] reprogram rethink their habits as soon

[27:47] as you get the urge actually I'm going

[27:49] to just can I give you a really good

[27:50] example of

[27:51] So, I was telling you and I have this

[27:53] husband, his name is Oasio. He is a

[27:55] filmmaker and he literally, we were

[27:56] talking the other night and um he's on

[27:59] this set making a movie and he wants uh

[28:03] a second camera for this particular

[28:06] scene and that's out of our budget like

[28:08] you know and he's pissed because he

[28:10] knows that the movie well it's going to

[28:12] make a difference for the visuals and he

[28:13] that's his job. He's in charge of he's a

[28:15] cinematographer. So,

[28:18] in the moment, he was like, "I want to

[28:20] just start like ripping this guy to

[28:21] shreds. You're you're you're a producer.

[28:23] You don't know what the hell you're

[28:24] talking about. I'm the creative guy.

[28:25] That's why you hired me. Like, this is

[28:27] what we need." And he's like, he

[28:28] realized thanks to his significant

[28:32] other. Like, that response would not be

[28:34] great. So, I said, "What did you do?" He

[28:36] goes, "I just took a breath. I I left

[28:40] the situation. I took a five minute walk

[28:44] and I just planned how do I want to show

[28:46] up to be the most convincing

[28:47] cinematographer in the history of film

[28:49] making to let this guy know how valuable

[28:53] this you know camera will be for the

[28:55] shot that I think will make the movie

[28:56] the movie and he got the camera

[29:00] >> great

[29:01] >> and he said you know 10 years ago he

[29:02] probably would have just been like go f

[29:04] yourself and like you're a [ __ ] but

[29:06] instead he took his meta moment and he's

[29:08] like I'm going to build some space I'm

[29:10] not going to respond right now cuz right

[29:11] now I don't know what to say. I don't

[29:12] know what to do. I feel like I just want

[29:14] to attack. Instead, I'm going to take

[29:16] that walk and I'm going to give myself

[29:18] the space to problem solve and be

[29:20] creative. The point is that you we're

[29:23] going to always have activations in our

[29:26] lives. There's no way around it. This is

[29:28] life. I'm an acute observer of the human

[29:31] condition. I'm a psychologist. So, like

[29:32] everywhere I go, I'm just like staring

[29:34] at people because [laughter] I'm like,

[29:35] "Wow, that was a really interesting

[29:37] response." You know, when you're

[29:38] checking into hotels, I just or at the

[29:40] airports, it's the best.

[29:41] >> Yes.

[29:42] >> The best.

[29:43] >> And I just I love watching how people

[29:44] just like triggered,

[29:46] >> you know, this airline sucks. It's like,

[29:49] okay, whatever. But um and so step two

[29:53] is called um stop. So, we've gone from

[29:58] we sense

[29:59] >> and then we just put on the stop button,

[30:01] the pause button.

[30:03] That might be, like I said, pinching

[30:05] yourself, taking a deep breath, saying,

[30:08] "Dan, I need a minute. I'm sorry. I'm

[30:10] just I just need a minute." And they

[30:12] leave the room and I come back. Whatever

[30:14] it might be, it's your whatever you need

[30:16] for you. But it really is like you have

[30:18] to have the discipline to shut up

[30:22] and not say what you feel like saying in

[30:24] the moment or do, you know, and that, by

[30:27] the way, is um also about behavior. So,

[30:33] another little tangent, but relevant

[30:35] because I do a lot of public speaking. I

[30:38] uh and I get invited out for dinners. I

[30:40] don't like it because it's just I'm an

[30:42] introvert and I prefer I just don't like

[30:44] to have to present, present, and

[30:46] socialize. You know, if it's I might go,

[30:49] but point is that I noticed that people

[30:54] expect me or maybe I'm just making this

[30:56] up to be like the entertainer like I'm

[30:59] the guest of honor for the presentation.

[31:01] So they want to like they want to ask me

[31:03] questions and blah blah blah. And I

[31:06] noticed that I I I actually self

[31:09] diagnosed myself with like a social

[31:11] anxiety eating problem.

[31:13] >> That sounds familiar.

[31:14] >> Yeah. And I just started eating way too

[31:16] much at these meals so I would keep my

[31:18] mouth busy.

[31:19] >> Yes. Yes.

[31:19] >> And then I go back to my hotel room

[31:22] >> and I'd feel like [ __ ]

[31:23] >> Yeah.

[31:24] >> And I just said, Mark, like this is like

[31:25] you have you're like a 50some year old

[31:28] man who is like a leader in the field of

[31:29] emotional intelligence. It's like you

[31:31] got to work on this. This is not the

[31:33] self that you aspired to be. So, I built

[31:36] out my little routine. And it was that

[31:40] no matter what, I I knew I could

[31:43] anticipate getting we're talking

[31:44] proactive here. I would anticipate that

[31:46] I'm going to be anxious at the meal

[31:48] because I'm going to have to like talk

[31:49] all night and it's not my cup of tea.

[31:51] And I would say, "Mark, you can actually

[31:54] ask good questions of other people.

[31:57] Mark, you can observe the food and not

[32:00] eat the food. Mark, how do you want to

[32:03] feel at the end of the night when you go

[32:05] back to your room before you go to bed?

[32:07] Do you want to feel bloated and kind of

[32:09] like annoyed with yourself or do you

[32:12] want to feel like you got this, you made

[32:14] it through the night, and you didn't

[32:15] have to eat your feelings? It radically

[32:16] transformed like my experiences because

[32:19] I just I I set myself up for success. I

[32:22] have my go-to strategy. when I notice

[32:24] myself getting anxious, I stop talking

[32:26] and I start asking questions and then I

[32:28] get to listen as opposed to one that's

[32:30] got to be like the, you know, on stage.

[32:33] So that's again an example of sensing

[32:36] either in the moment or anticipating,

[32:39] pausing to take that breath. But here's

[32:41] the the piece that was the missing

[32:43] piece, which is now it's about seeing

[32:44] your best self. And so what does that

[32:46] mean? Well, it means a lot of things.

[32:48] Um, it means Mark the best self-husband.

[32:52] It means Mark the best self-p

[32:53] profofessor. It means Mark the best

[32:54] self-presenter because the selves that

[32:56] we need to present are different across

[32:59] our roles. And also the characteristics

[33:02] of that self are different across those

[33:04] roles. So I always joke like Mark I I

[33:07] really like to use humor when I present.

[33:09] It's just my style. I make fun of the

[33:11] audience. I use them. You know at home

[33:14] you know it doesn't work as well. You

[33:16] know looks like you're in the red. You

[33:18] know red tonight honey. you know, it's

[33:20] like I'll give you a red. Um, and so I

[33:23] got to be mindful that Mark's public

[33:26] speaking best self is not the same as

[33:28] his either and mentor self. Sometimes my

[33:31] humor doesn't like people don't like get

[33:33] it at work. I'm like, okay, we got to

[33:35] work on that one. And again, best friend

[33:38] self, etc. So, a big piece of this, and

[33:41] maybe people who are listening can

[33:42] actually do this right now, is to take a

[33:44] moment and think about maybe a role that

[33:47] you're struggling with. Maybe it's

[33:49] husband, dad, podcast host, whatever.

[33:53] And just think about what that self

[33:56] would ideally look like for you right

[33:59] now. What are the adjectives that you

[34:00] would use to describe that self? I think

[34:03] about this like I haven't seen Odasio in

[34:06] a month because he's been making this

[34:07] film and I'm going to show up tonight

[34:10] and know he's going to be exhausted and

[34:12] I know that, you know, I'm I'm going to

[34:14] I'm going to want to ask a lot of

[34:15] questions like, "Oh, Dennis Quaid's on

[34:16] the movie. Tell me about Dennis Quaid.

[34:18] blah blah blah and um and he's not going

[34:21] to be in the mood to talk about any of

[34:23] the actors or anything that's going on

[34:25] like I'm not in the film making

[34:26] business. I'm kind of curious but so

[34:28] okay, you know, we're going to get

[34:29] together for the first time tonight in a

[34:31] month. How can I show up as the best

[34:33] version of me in that moment? I haven't

[34:35] figured it out yet. I have the I have

[34:36] the flight to [laughter]

[34:38] but my you get my point here. Like you

[34:39] just it's

[34:42] for the for the stage maybe it's funny

[34:44] self. It's I want to be seen as smart

[34:46] but also humble. Like that's a big deal

[34:48] for me because of where I work. People

[34:50] automatically assume like whatever I

[34:53] think a lot of myself because of my job

[34:55] and I'm like I'm from Jersey like I'm

[34:57] just a normal guy like I you know I'm a

[35:00] beef and potatoes kind of guy and I

[35:02] think that really helps people when I do

[35:06] public speaking because they're what

[35:08] that the self that they they have

[35:10] created for me is not who I am etc. So

[35:13] Dan, let me ask you this. Can is there a

[35:15] role that you feel like you could work

[35:17] on more so than any other role?

[35:19] >> So many to choose from. [laughter]

[35:21] >> Pick the one that's uh shows up.

[35:22] >> The one that's just coming up right in

[35:23] my mind is uh we do a lot of company

[35:27] meetings at my little company. I own my

[35:30] company and small staff. I don't know

[35:32] somewhere between 10 and 15 people. Um

[35:35] and we do them on Zoom. And I hate Zoom.

[35:38] >> Yeah.

[35:38] >> I [ __ ] hate Zoom. I like I just if

[35:41] people video call me, I'm annoyed. Uh if

[35:44] I have to get on a Zoom, I'm annoyed.

[35:46] It's actually my biggest problem with

[35:48] hosting this podcast and why I'm trying

[35:49] to get it to be in person is I hate

[35:51] sitting and looking at a screen um

[35:53] unless that screen is playing House of

[35:55] the Dragon. Yeah. Um I don't I don't

[35:57] want to be talking on Zoom. And so yeah,

[35:59] so sometimes in these uh team meetings

[36:03] I am like physically uncomfortable

[36:06] because I don't I get really tired when

[36:08] I have to look at a screen and I don't

[36:10] think I'm accessing my best self and

[36:12] being a good leader because I'm annoyed.

[36:15] >> That's a great uh example. I do have one

[36:18] trick for you. Uh I have radically

[36:21] transformed my Zoom meetings because I

[36:24] now have a walking machine.

[36:26] >> Yeah. Yes. It has changed my life. I

[36:28] actually refuse to be in a Zoom meeting

[36:30] and not walking.

[36:31] >> So, it's a treadmill at your desk.

[36:33] >> Y

[36:34] >> love it. Extra 10,000 steps a day.

[36:36] Sometimes 15,000 depending on how many

[36:38] meetings I have. If it's a real like if

[36:41] I'm doing like an interview, I'm not

[36:42] going to like be walking [laughter]

[36:44] weird. But if it's just like

[36:45] conversations with staff about stuff,

[36:47] they just know that Mark's going to be

[36:49] walking. I've gotten like five people,

[36:50] you know, on my team to get them. Um,

[36:52] and it does help me have a better

[36:54] mindset because I feel like the movement

[36:56] piece

[36:57] >> Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

[36:58] >> But, um, so going back to you now, so

[37:01] you're saying that you kind of

[37:02] automatically get disengaged.

[37:04] >> Yeah.

[37:05] >> And you get like you're kind of just

[37:06] like yucky about it.

[37:08] >> Yes. Disengaged and then judgmental of

[37:10] myself.

[37:11] >> Who is the self that you'd like to show

[37:13] up in those meetings?

[37:14] >> Teacher Dan. Uh, who's generous,

[37:17] attuned, signaling that he cares about

[37:20] my employees, which I do. What's one

[37:22] strategy that you can imagine using?

[37:24] This is a great example of proactive

[37:26] regulation. You know now about yourself.

[37:28] You know that the Zoom automatically

[37:30] kind of brings up fatigue,

[37:32] disengagement, etc. So that's going to

[37:37] happen till the cows come home. We want

[37:40] to prevent that.

[37:41] So what's your strategy? What what might

[37:43] be one thing you could do differently in

[37:45] the next Zoom meeting? Now, I'm going to

[37:47] take us on a digression because I had a

[37:49] conversation with um DJ who's the

[37:53] executive producer of this show and he

[37:55] was very I love when my team does this.

[37:58] I don't actually love it in the moment,

[37:59] but I love that they feel comfortable

[38:00] enough to do it and uh it's really been

[38:02] helpful to me. He was he was able to

[38:05] like call me out on something in in a he

[38:08] in a very polite and constructive way,

[38:10] but he was saying, "I'm noticing that on

[38:12] a lot of these podcast interviews,

[38:14] you're kind of flat. And you know,

[38:17] people are saying things that you're not

[38:18] picking up on. And and I explained to

[38:21] him, you know, it's it's because of the

[38:23] Zoom. It's because I've spent the entire

[38:25] morning working on tough creative

[38:27] problems and I get into the podcast and

[38:29] I'm I just don't want to be stuck in a

[38:31] little closet in my house staring at a

[38:33] Zoom. And uh

[38:35] >> he's like, I totally get that, but like

[38:37] >> it's showtime.

[38:38] >> Yeah. And it's showtime has been a

[38:42] little phrase I've said to myself when I

[38:44] sit down for podcast interviews. Not

[38:46] like this because I'm super engaged

[38:47] because you're a live human being right

[38:49] in front of me. Um and I think it's

[38:51] showtime is another thing you could say

[38:53] I could say to myself before these Zoom

[38:55] team meetings.

[38:56] >> 100%. Love it. Simple technique, a

[38:59] simple um kind of shift strategy. Just a

[39:03] mindset shift. Showtime that that

[39:06] conjures up a whole thing for you which

[39:07] is brighteyed, cheery face, you know,

[39:09] engaged, good posture, etc., etc.

[39:12] Perfect. And maybe you think about other

[39:13] things you can do like a little

[39:15] exercise, a little bit of movement

[39:17] before you

[39:18] >> Yes. I've been I I keep a tennis ball at

[39:20] my desk and I've been sort of walking

[39:22] around the room just catching the tennis

[39:24] ball a little bit. It's not as good as

[39:26] having a treadmill at my desk, but I

[39:29] don't have to look at the screen the

[39:30] whole time and I can kind of pace a

[39:33] little bit and throw a tennis ball to

[39:34] myself, and that I find actually keeps

[39:36] me more engaged.

[39:37] >> And do you feel like every meeting has

[39:39] to be a Zoom meeting?

[39:40] >> No, we're actually talking about moving

[39:42] to phone and and for my one-on ones, um,

[39:46] we I do a lot of phone and and

[39:48] increasingly like just having people get

[39:51] together in person. like my CEO who

[39:53] lives near me. She and I just we get

[39:55] together and the and there's another

[39:57] person on my team who's who is a very

[39:59] close creative collaborator and we just

[40:01] get together and that makes all the

[40:03] difference. I have now cuz I am a

[40:06] movement guy. I uh with the key people

[40:10] on my leadership team we had a

[40:12] conversation just literally two days

[40:13] ago. I said, "Can we divide our meetings

[40:15] up into meetings where I need to like

[40:18] look at things versus not look at

[40:20] things, you know, versus we're just

[40:22] going to be talking through stuff?" So,

[40:23] yesterday I had a meeting where we were

[40:26] going through like all the emails that

[40:27] have come in and like what what do we

[40:28] want to do with this these inquiries? We

[40:30] want to do this, do we not want to do

[40:31] this? I'm like, so I just had to listen

[40:33] and basically say yes, no. They're like

[40:35] yes. I said great, I'm doing a walk

[40:37] around the reservoir. And so, it was a

[40:40] 45minute meeting. I walked around the

[40:42] entire reservoir up by where I live on

[40:43] Central Park

[40:44] >> and I was like I felt great at this.

[40:46] >> Yes.

[40:47] >> So like helping like I think that this

[40:49] again it's like there are simple

[40:50] techniques that people can do and then

[40:52] of course I come out of that feeling

[40:54] energized because it was a beautiful

[40:55] day. I got movement in. I feel

[40:58] accomplished because I got the work

[40:59] done. And or I could have been for

[41:01] people who are on YouTube watching this

[41:02] like this, [laughter]

[41:05] which is basically my jaw sticking out,

[41:08] you know, my back hunched, my neck

[41:09] crunched, you know, [laughter]

[41:13] >> an unhappy salamander is basically the

[41:16] >> Yeah. It's like I don't want that in my

[41:17] life. I want, you know, my feelings

[41:19] master, man. I want to have good

[41:20] posture.

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[42:31] >> So, did we make it through the list?

[42:33] >> No.

[42:34] >> So, we're at step three.

[42:35] >> Okay. Sense, stop.

[42:37] >> See your best self.

[42:38] >> See your best self. Now, four.

[42:40] >> Strategize.

[42:41] >> Strategize.

[42:41] >> So, the my best self says it's showtime.

[42:44] My best self says, "I'm going to walk

[42:46] during this meeting." My best self says,

[42:49] "I need a 5minute break to get myself

[42:52] together." My best self says, "Mark,

[42:56] this is part of your life. This is going

[42:58] to be one of those dinners. You can be

[43:00] the learner, not the knower."

[43:03] And um that's what's really important.

[43:06] And by the way, going back to emotion

[43:08] regulation as a kind of concept, I think

[43:11] what's so important is that people

[43:12] realize that

[43:15] different strategies are useful for

[43:17] different emotions and experiences. So

[43:19] I'll give you an example. I've been

[43:20] going through some stuff, you know, just

[43:23] who am I? What am I doing? And I was in

[43:25] yoga last night and I had this one great

[43:28] teacher. He said maybe for certain

[43:31] things given the lack of control we

[43:33] really have we can just surrender to the

[43:36] process and I don't know what it was in

[43:39] that moment but it was so I just my

[43:41] whole body and mind said you know what

[43:44] the law of physics the law of the

[43:46] universe is that we will we will we will

[43:49] move forward right now it feels like

[43:52] everything is stuck I don't love that

[43:54] feeling but if I can bring in that

[43:56] mindset of just

[43:59] This is the process, Mark. It's going to

[44:00] be This is just It's okay. I texted him.

[44:03] I actually have never done this before,

[44:05] but I was walking home and I found him

[44:07] on Instagram and I sent him a DM and I

[44:10] just said, you know,

[44:12] there was something I've been going

[44:13] through something, you know, that I'm

[44:15] struggling with and I want to just thank

[44:17] you because that language was enormously

[44:21] helpful for me and just thank you. And

[44:23] he wrote me back like, "Oh my god, we're

[44:24] in this together." you know, was but you

[44:27] know, now I can now that I learned that

[44:30] that was helpful for me cuz I just my I

[44:32] just felt my body and mind shift when

[44:34] I'm going into a meeting over the next

[44:36] couple weeks about this particular

[44:38] thing. I will bring that memory in. I

[44:41] will bring that feeling in. So, I'll be

[44:43] more I took what I learned in the moment

[44:45] and I'm applying it to be more

[44:47] proactive. Just a digression on your

[44:49] digression here, but th this notion of

[44:51] surrender is tricky because it can be

[44:53] misinterpreted just as uh emotion

[44:56] regulation can be misinterpreted. S

[44:59] >> I just want to signal to the listener

[45:01] and viewer that you are surrendering to

[45:03] a process. Correct. There is a process.

[45:06] So this is not like drift

[45:08] >> but I'm not going to solve that process

[45:10] when I'm ruminating about it in yoga.

[45:12] >> Right. Right.

[45:13] >> And so I'm not going to ruin my class by

[45:16] just sitting there like oh my god. I'm

[45:17] like,

[45:19] luckily, you know, hot power yoga for me

[45:21] gets me out of my head. But for me, it

[45:23] was that phrase and it just said, you

[45:25] know what, Mark, it's a process. You're

[45:28] not going to solve this problem in this

[45:30] next 45 minutes. Enjoy the moment. Be

[45:32] here. You love this class. And then but

[45:35] then when I left I actually you know it

[45:37] was I felt joy and I you know it was

[45:41] beautiful for me to have that experience

[45:43] of like just a reminder like I like you

[45:46] said it's a process not going to solve

[45:48] it today. It's not something that's

[45:49] actually even solvable in the moment.

[45:51] It's a it's going to be this process.

[45:53] >> Well said.

[45:54] >> But I want to just help people

[45:55] understand what I mean by flexible

[45:58] regulation. um or sometimes we call it

[46:00] polyregulation which is the idea that

[46:03] I'll give you some a few examples. So I

[46:06] have noticed I've been paying attention

[46:08] go figure to like what strategies I use

[46:10] for what emotions and what situations.

[46:13] What I've learned is that when I have a

[46:16] relationship challenge, I'm not great at

[46:19] using cognitive strategies. I will

[46:21] ruminate and I will try to figure it out

[46:24] and like wonder like why does this

[46:26] person not like me or why is this like

[46:28] this and you know it's like I'm I think

[46:29] I'm the nicest guy in the world and how

[46:31] could anybody not like me like I'll go

[46:33] through a whole thing of like self-doubt

[46:35] or like I'm whatever that never that has

[46:38] not worked for me for I'm going to be 57

[46:41] in a few weeks.

[46:42] >> Happy birthday.

[46:42] >> Thank you. What does work

[46:45] is recognize I have a lot of close

[46:48] acquaintances, a lot of friends, a lot

[46:50] of people who I really respect and

[46:51] admire and why should I have to worry

[46:53] about this alone? Why don't I just call

[46:55] up a friend and just say, "What do you

[46:57] think about this and hear your

[46:59] perspective?" And all of a sudden, I'm

[47:01] like, "Oh my god, I'm not alone. I'm a

[47:02] nice guy. People there are people who

[47:04] love me." Um, but my point is that

[47:07] whatever it is for me in my makeup and

[47:09] my development, when it's about an

[47:13] interpersonal thing, I struggle with

[47:16] resolving it on my own. I do really well

[47:19] by listening and getting just sharing

[47:21] the situation, not venting for hours and

[47:24] hours because I know that doesn't work.

[47:26] I take I just say, "Do what do you think

[47:27] about like this particular situation?

[47:30] Any thoughts?" And I listen and then I

[47:32] sh and I'm I sift through what I hear.

[47:34] I'm like, "Yeah, of course, great." And

[47:37] then I can move on. Now, when I am

[47:41] frustrated

[47:42] with something, let's say with Odasio, I

[47:47] have to talk it out. I just got I can't

[47:49] like I don't want to go to bed at night.

[47:51] I just need to verbalize it in a way

[47:53] that, you know, can get met. And the

[47:55] reason I'm sharing this with you is that

[47:57] for people I think we get obsessed with

[47:59] like one strategy like breath work seem

[48:02] people seem to be obsessed with which is

[48:04] fine breath work is great it's not going

[48:06] to solve the world's problems you you

[48:09] can you know I joke about this but my

[48:11] mother-in-law who came during co

[48:13] accidentally was a whole crazy thing

[48:15] where she um came March 5th of 2020 to

[48:20] visit us from Panama.

[48:22] >> Okay. She did not go home until

[48:24] September 17th. So, she was supposed to

[48:27] stay for two weeks. She stayed for seven

[48:29] months because of COVID and all the

[48:31] flights being cancelled. So, I take

[48:32] breaths and okay, it's even clear why

[48:35] she's got to get the hell out of my

[48:36] house. It's like I have complete clarity

[48:39] why I can't take it anymore. So, yeah,

[48:42] breath work is great. Yoga is great. But

[48:45] sometimes we need perspective from other

[48:47] people. Like this is a big issue for

[48:49] example with men and emotions. Men think

[48:51] I got to solve it on my own. No, I can't

[48:52] be vulnerable. Why? Who said you can't

[48:56] ask someone for some advice or some

[48:57] support or get perspective? It's just

[49:00] that we're taught that that's weak or

[49:02] being too vulnerable.

[49:04] Um, so polyregulation or flexible

[49:07] regulation says, okay, emotion

[49:09] regulation is a function of the emotion

[49:11] itself and the context. So, marks when

[49:15] I'm overwhelmed, for example, I'm a

[49:17] writer, you do a lot of writing, too. I

[49:19] noticed that if I am overwhelmed and I

[49:22] try to keep writing, it sucks. How about

[49:24] you?

[49:25] >> This is a mistake I keep making. I I'm

[49:27] overwhelmed, but I feel pressure to

[49:30] bulldoze through it and I it's just

[49:32] nothing. Nothing good happens.

[49:34] >> Exactly. So, give my little thing. I am

[49:37] very hyper aware of when I am stuck

[49:40] writing. A, you know, I've written two

[49:42] books, I'm going to write a third book.

[49:44] I have written 200 scholarly articles. I

[49:47] can write. I actually know I can write

[49:48] because I have the data to prove it.

[49:51] There are moments when I can't even

[49:53] think of a I can't write a paragraph.

[49:55] It's like the craziest thing in the

[49:56] world and I can just be like, "Mark,

[49:59] like you're a writer. This is you're a

[50:00] professor. You're a scholar." And it's

[50:03] like, "Who gives a fuck?" And in that

[50:05] moment, I'm like, "You need a break."

[50:07] And I just shut the computer and I walk

[50:09] outside. I take a 10-minute walk.

[50:11] Sometimes I'll do a little movement and

[50:14] I come back and it's like all the ideas

[50:17] come back to me. So I really encourage

[50:19] that. And so this is again knowing

[50:21] yourself. So for overwhelm

[50:24] I know that I have to give myself those

[50:25] micro breaks. That's great. For anxiety

[50:30] which is more about like this like

[50:32] what's going to happen? What's going to

[50:33] happen?

[50:35] I could take a break and what's going to

[50:36] happen? What's going to happen? I take

[50:37] another break. I come back. What's going

[50:39] to happen? What's going to happen? It

[50:40] doesn't work for me. For anxiety, I have

[50:42] to use selft talk strategies. I have to

[50:45] say things like, Mark, take the high

[50:47] road here. Mark, you're not, you know,

[50:50] during co I would say things like, Mark,

[50:51] you are not the CDC. Mark, you are not

[50:54] the president of the university. You're

[50:55] not going to ever make the choice about

[50:57] when we go back to work. And it would

[50:58] just be like, oh yeah, I have no control

[51:00] over this. So I can either just sit all

[51:03] day long watching the stock market crash

[51:05] and watching people die of COVID or I

[51:08] can distract myself from that and focus

[51:10] on what I can focus on. So overwhelm

[51:13] strategies different from anxiety

[51:15] strategies. Um does that make sense?

[51:18] >> Yes.

[51:18] >> Okay. It does. I think it's just really

[51:20] critical because I think people get

[51:22] stuck and you know part of the reason

[51:24] why I wrote this new book dealing with

[51:25] feeling was to create these to really

[51:27] show people that like your strategy

[51:30] might just be a mindset shift. Your

[51:32] strategy might be the breath work. Your

[51:34] strategy might be shifting your thought

[51:37] processes. Your strategy might be

[51:40] getting social support. Your strategy

[51:42] might be getting taking a nap, getting a

[51:45] little bite to eat, doing a little

[51:47] physical activity. And in the end, what

[51:49] I believe is that if you accumulate all

[51:51] these evidence-based strategies, that's

[51:54] what helps you what? Become the best

[51:57] version of yourself.

[51:57] >> Right. Exactly.

[51:58] >> It all kind of it all all these kind of

[52:01] strategies come together so that when

[52:03] you are triggered and you pause and you

[52:06] take the breath and then you visualize

[52:08] the best self, you now have trained

[52:10] yourself with all these strategies and

[52:12] you can match the strategy to the

[52:14] emotion in the moment.

[52:16] >> Got it? Yes. Does that make sense?

[52:18] >> It makes complete sense. As we march

[52:20] through this five-part strategy, it

[52:21] makes me realize that this is actually

[52:23] you could use this in preparation for

[52:26] something the meta moment, but you can

[52:28] also use it in the actual moment.

[52:30] >> Exactly. It's meant It was originally

[52:32] developed for the moment, like prolong

[52:34] the space between stimulus and response

[52:37] um to, you know, be the best version of

[52:39] yourself. And then I just realized that

[52:42] wait a minute, like why don't we use

[52:44] this for what we might anticipate would

[52:47] be a difficult meeting, you know, and I

[52:49] do a lot of work in school, so it' be

[52:50] like the teacher having the parent

[52:52] meeting and it's like the parents going

[52:55] to be angry, their kid is getting in

[52:56] trouble. Can I be better prepared? Can I

[52:59] think about my go-to strategy for when

[53:00] the parent says you're ruining my kid?

[53:04] Like I don't want you to be caught off

[53:05] guard. you know this person, this parent

[53:08] after, you know, years of working with

[53:09] them or whatever. Let's pretend it's

[53:12] gonna happen. Let's be prepped in

[53:15] advance so that you can be a better

[53:17] responder as opposed to automatic

[53:20] reactor. Have you ever called a business

[53:22] and nobody picked up? So then you just

[53:24] went to the next business in the in the

[53:27] [music] array of Google results when you

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[54:41] [music]

[54:43] This episode is sponsored by FarmKind. I

[54:46] had a key moment several years ago when

[54:49] I was listening to a podcast by my

[54:51] friend Sam Harris [music] and he asked

[54:52] his guest, "What do you think in

[54:55] hindsight will be today's version of

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[56:18] We've done four of the five steps. First

[56:20] is sense. Second is stop. Third is see

[56:23] your best self. Fourth is strategize.

[56:25] Yep.

[56:26] >> Is the fifth also going to start with a

[56:27] letter S?

[56:28] >> Of course. Yeah. [laughter]

[56:31] >> Um it's going to be uh self assess. So

[56:36] now the real meta moment is the four

[56:38] steps. It's you go from sensing the

[56:41] shift in your mind and body to

[56:44] strategizing and acting in a way that

[56:45] aligns with your best self. But I'm

[56:48] going to give you one just terrible

[56:50] example of my like worst self. Odasio um

[56:53] made this movie called America

[56:55] Unfiltered that I helped to make and he

[56:57] had a book of his portraits. It was a it

[56:58] was a tour of America and asking people

[57:00] what it meant to be an American. and we

[57:03] were he's like I really want to do the

[57:06] book of portraits like a coffee table

[57:08] book of all of his photography. Great.

[57:11] We we'll figure it out. We'll figure it

[57:13] out. So now his English is a second

[57:16] language. Uh he's from Panama originally

[57:18] and we had to write like the forward and

[57:20] or the you know the introduction and the

[57:22] conclusion of the book and obviously I

[57:25] do a lot of writing. I'm going to be the

[57:26] editor. I'm going to make this much

[57:28] shorter than it really was. So I get

[57:30] home from a long trip. The book is due

[57:32] the next day. I had already edited the

[57:35] the intro and the conclusion and I get

[57:38] the galley and I'm like this is not the

[57:41] version that I edited. Like I don't

[57:43] understand like what happened here. Like

[57:46] I spent a lot of time editing this intro

[57:49] and he's gets very defensive and you

[57:52] know we got into this huge fight. I was

[57:54] so tired and irritated that I mean like

[57:58] the worst worst version of the feelings

[58:02] master came out. It was awful. I mean

[58:06] and in retrospect I I think all this

[58:09] work on emotional intelligence all in

[58:11] the crapper. Has this ever happened?

[58:13] >> Every Tuesday. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

[58:16] And you It's worse because and I don't

[58:19] most people listening to this probably

[58:20] won't be able to relate to it, but you

[58:22] and I have public personas. Sure.

[58:24] >> And internalize personas of being, you

[58:27] know, better than that.

[58:28] >> Yeah. Like people who are practitioners.

[58:30] >> Yes. Yes. And then so when I do the

[58:34] stupid thing or say the stupid thing,

[58:35] it's it's even more embarrassing for me.

[58:38] >> Exactly. And I'm like, you're a fraud.

[58:40] You know, the whole thing. And

[58:44] it's like, gosh, it was bad. I'm going

[58:47] to I'm going to be like I'm going tell a

[58:48] story that I know. I hope he doesn't

[58:50] kill me for this. But so we live we have

[58:53] a a place in the country and um he was

[58:56] so upset with me he went outside and

[58:58] started like howling. [laughter]

[59:01] So the next morning our neighbor said

[59:02] did you hear the wolves [laughter]

[59:06] like I actually did and they weren't

[59:08] wolves it was actually harassio

[59:10] [laughter] and I mean obviously we're

[59:12] we've been together 32 years we're in a

[59:15] I think in the best place we've ever

[59:16] been and we now have the skills to

[59:18] repair. So my point of telling you this

[59:21] is that I didn't take the meta moment

[59:24] and I hate myself for that. But I don't

[59:27] want to go backwards in life. I want to

[59:28] move forward and I need to have learned

[59:31] how to apology apologize you know ask

[59:34] for forgiveness repair not with all the

[59:37] butts buts buts buts but buts but but

[59:38] why didn't you edit it and but why'd you

[59:39] give the wrong version that happened you

[59:42] know just because it didn't go as

[59:45] planned and he made a mistake doesn't

[59:47] mean I need to be a jerk. It takes the

[59:49] same amount of time to be a jerk as it

[59:51] does to be compassionate.

[59:52] >> Yeah. But it's so much harder to be

[59:54] compassionate.

[59:55] >> But this is what we have to strive for.

[59:57] And that's another big piece of this.

[59:58] And I'm glad you said that because we're

[1:00:00] never going to attain our best self.

[1:00:02] >> We're never going to attain it

[1:00:03] permanently.

[1:00:04] >> Exactly. It's something we strive for

[1:00:06] because it's and it's, you know, our

[1:00:08] relationships change over time. The

[1:00:10] person that I met when I was 24 years

[1:00:12] old, you know, is not the person I'm

[1:00:15] with now 32 years later. Um, and that's

[1:00:18] important to know. And so this the self

[1:00:23] assessment is really about,

[1:00:26] okay, it worked. Congratulations. Let's

[1:00:29] use this one again. Mark, you got

[1:00:31] through the meta moment. You used your

[1:00:32] best self. Now, every time you go out

[1:00:35] for dinner, you're going to take the

[1:00:36] breath in the elevator. You're going to

[1:00:38] remind yourself that you're the learner,

[1:00:40] not the knower. You don't have to talk

[1:00:42] throughout the whole night. You can

[1:00:43] observe the food, not eat at all. You

[1:00:45] got this, Mark? Yes, got it. And it

[1:00:49] works 90% of the time, not 100%.

[1:00:52] You know, it happens. And then there's

[1:00:54] the times when, you know, I ate the

[1:00:56] whole thing of nachos and guacamole and

[1:00:58] I feel like or the times that I just say

[1:01:01] the nastiest thing ever to my

[1:01:04] significant other and I have to go I

[1:01:06] have to take them I have to take some

[1:01:07] time and like just say like why did this

[1:01:12] version of myself come out tonight?

[1:01:15] And usually it's an issue of control.

[1:01:17] Usually it's an issue of trying to prove

[1:01:19] myself. Usually it's something that's

[1:01:21] just not that healthy. Um and then I can

[1:01:25] build again and say, "Okay, next time

[1:01:27] what's your strategy?"

[1:01:29] >> Well, you said something crucial there

[1:01:30] because the self assessment

[1:01:33] is actually part of the proactive

[1:01:36] regulation because if you can see like

[1:01:38] what's my trigger? You just said there

[1:01:40] it was something about control. I think

[1:01:42] that's a very common trigger. Yep.

[1:01:44] >> Well, then you're better prepared for

[1:01:46] when you're going into a situation and

[1:01:48] you understand, oh yeah, that trigger

[1:01:50] could come up for me.

[1:01:52] >> 100%. And this is the whole point like

[1:01:55] anticipatory. Another example I'll just

[1:01:56] give you. We're actually close to her

[1:01:59] neighborhood. She has passed, but I had

[1:02:01] an aunt who was a very successful woman

[1:02:03] in the garment industry here in New

[1:02:05] York. But she had she was like the devil

[1:02:07] was word prototype, except she didn't do

[1:02:09] fancy clothing. She did other kinds of

[1:02:11] clothing.

[1:02:12] >> Trade. Yeah, pretty much. [laughter]

[1:02:15] The sweaters that she designed are to be

[1:02:18] discussed elsewhere. [laughter] But

[1:02:20] anyway,

[1:02:22] the um so but my aunt would like she had

[1:02:26] all this jewelry and we'd be in a

[1:02:28] restaurant and she'd be like bang her

[1:02:31] diamond ring on the thing to get

[1:02:32] attention from the waiter and you'd be

[1:02:34] sitting there thinking like,

[1:02:34] >> "Oh my god,

[1:02:35] >> I can't believe this is happening."

[1:02:36] >> Yeah. or we had she had an apartment on

[1:02:38] the east side and we'd go there and

[1:02:41] she'd say things like, "What are you

[1:02:42] doing?" I said, "I don't know. We're

[1:02:44] having dinner with the family. I'm just

[1:02:45] lighting the candles." She goes, "Those

[1:02:47] are for real company."

[1:02:49] >> Got it.

[1:02:49] >> Okay. That's That was my aunt. Funny,

[1:02:52] cool, not easy to be with. So, what do

[1:02:55] you do before you go to Aunt Sandy's

[1:02:58] house or before you have dinner with

[1:02:59] Aunt Sandy? You do a lot of prep work.

[1:03:02] You take the meta moment in advance. You

[1:03:05] say she's going to bang her diamond ring

[1:03:07] on the table and be a, you know, so

[1:03:09] embarrassing. She's going to say nasty

[1:03:11] things about people. She's going to roll

[1:03:13] her eyes. She does a lot of eye rolling,

[1:03:15] too. It's like if someone she doesn't

[1:03:16] agree with you, she people who can't

[1:03:18] see, you know, she does this massive eye

[1:03:20] roll in front of the person. I'm like,

[1:03:22] what's going on? Ridiculous. But like,

[1:03:25] this is who she is. I'm not changing

[1:03:26] her. It's not my job to be her teacher.

[1:03:29] It's my job to not to want to be with my

[1:03:32] family. And she's part of the family. So

[1:03:34] I got to deal with it. But then it

[1:03:37] became honestly I called it like a game

[1:03:39] of creativity. And so what I mean by

[1:03:41] that is I actually think emotion

[1:03:43] regulation is a very creative process

[1:03:46] cuz it's like divergent. It's like let

[1:03:48] me think about it this way. Let me try

[1:03:49] this. Let me do this. Mark, how would

[1:03:51] the feelings master respond to that

[1:03:52] thing and that thing and that thing? And

[1:03:54] it's really fun if you make it into a

[1:03:55] game.

[1:03:56] >> Bruce Lee used to say, you're a martial

[1:03:58] artist. He used to say be like water.

[1:03:59] Yes. And that's what you're doing when

[1:04:02] you're um when and I say this to the

[1:04:05] listener and viewer, when you're being

[1:04:07] your own feelings master, you're being

[1:04:09] like water. You're adapting to the

[1:04:10] situation. Creative.

[1:04:11] >> Couldn't agree more. So that became like

[1:04:13] a fun exercise. I would be like, okay.

[1:04:16] So when an makes the dumb comment, what

[1:04:19] am I going to think and what am I going

[1:04:20] to say? And it just became like this is

[1:04:23] like this is who she is. This is, you

[1:04:25] know, and I wouldn't get triggered

[1:04:27] anymore. I would just find it amusing. I

[1:04:29] would observe it and say like wow I wish

[1:04:31] I would have tracked her development

[1:04:36] [laughter]

[1:04:36] like what was her relationship like what

[1:04:38] did it look like for her growing up in

[1:04:39] her family

[1:04:40] >> and I would I again that's selft talk

[1:04:42] too I would actually say these things to

[1:04:44] myself I'd be like gosh this is a

[1:04:45] fascinating story like how does someone

[1:04:48] like that get made

[1:04:50] >> so that's the process from you know we

[1:04:53] sense we stop we see our best selves we

[1:04:57] strategize guys and then we have to do

[1:04:59] some evaluation or self assessment.

[1:05:02] >> Actually, if it's okay to share this, I

[1:05:04] uh on my website, I created a little

[1:05:05] worksheet for this.

[1:05:06] >> Oh, great. So, just mark bracket.com and

[1:05:09] uh there's a it's called the metam

[1:05:10] moment strategybuilder worksheet to help

[1:05:12] people just try it out.

[1:05:15] >> And if you go to markbrackchet.com, you

[1:05:17] can also find your books which are

[1:05:18] permission to feel and dealing with

[1:05:20] feeling.

[1:05:20] >> Correct.

[1:05:21] >> And there's a third one coming.

[1:05:22] >> That's right.

[1:05:23] >> Okay. Great. Will you come back on the

[1:05:24] show when that

[1:05:25] >> I would love to. This is I think this is

[1:05:27] um I'm excited about this one. This is

[1:05:29] if I can just say upfront it's about how

[1:05:32] to be an emotion ally

[1:05:33] >> for somebody else.

[1:05:34] >> Yeah.

[1:05:35] >> A thought came into my head when you

[1:05:36] were talking about your aunt uh Sandy um

[1:05:39] where you

[1:05:41] trained yourself to be able to get

[1:05:44] curious about like okay well what was it

[1:05:46] like in her home that she's now had

[1:05:48] developing an ocular sprain by rolling

[1:05:50] her eyes so ostentatiously

[1:05:53] you know when somebody says something

[1:05:54] she disagrees with. I'm wondering

[1:05:56] whether learning how to become your own

[1:05:59] feelings master inexurably and

[1:06:01] inevitably leads you to becoming more

[1:06:04] compassionate to becoming more of an

[1:06:06] ally for other people cuz you see how to

[1:06:10] use the word you used before you see

[1:06:11] your own mishagas you see how [ __ ]

[1:06:13] crazy you are so you understand though

[1:06:16] everybody's got their own stuff

[1:06:17] >> yeah I think what you're getting at Dan

[1:06:19] is something that we didn't talk about

[1:06:21] which can kind of like bring in at the

[1:06:23] end which is that the The reason why I

[1:06:26] think this technique helps and the

[1:06:27] reason why I think emotion regulation is

[1:06:29] important is that you're not really

[1:06:30] doing it for its own sake. You're doing

[1:06:32] it for outcomes. I actually want to feel

[1:06:36] good about myself.

[1:06:37] >> Of course.

[1:06:37] >> Yes. And achieve your goals.

[1:06:39] >> I Yeah. I want to like I want to be in a

[1:06:41] healthy, productive, honest, and open

[1:06:43] relationship with my significant other.

[1:06:45] >> I want to make the best decisions. I

[1:06:47] want to have good mental health. And

[1:06:49] like you just said, I want to achieve my

[1:06:50] goals in life. And as someone who has,

[1:06:52] you know, coached thousands of people

[1:06:54] and trained millions of people at this

[1:06:56] point in my career, I can tell you right

[1:06:58] now, cognitive ability is a necessary

[1:07:01] but insufficient skill. You got to learn

[1:07:03] how to deal with your feelings.

[1:07:05] >> And to get back to the thesis of your

[1:07:06] next book, are you arguing in that book

[1:07:09] that learning how to deal with your own

[1:07:10] feelings helps you be an ally to others?

[1:07:12] >> I am. I mean, that's part of it. That's

[1:07:14] part of the dealing with feeling book.

[1:07:15] What I'm arguing in this next book is

[1:07:19] that only about a third of us feel like

[1:07:22] we had a pretty good emotional

[1:07:24] development. Twothirds of us feel like,

[1:07:26] gosh, I was raised by wolves. Nobody

[1:07:28] really cared about my emotions. That's

[1:07:30] my research. 70 studies across the

[1:07:32] world.

[1:07:32] >> Wow.

[1:07:32] >> So, you can't change the past. Now,

[1:07:36] maybe I'll end with this kind of little

[1:07:39] story, which is I uh I wrote this book,

[1:07:43] Permission to Feel, which is I dedicated

[1:07:44] to my uncle because he was the adult who

[1:07:46] gave me permission to feel. He was the

[1:07:48] only one who ever asked me how I was

[1:07:49] feeling. And so, I'm now running around

[1:07:52] giving speeches. I'm in Westchester of

[1:07:54] all places where you are,

[1:07:56] >> where I live. Yes.

[1:07:57] >> And I'm giving a speech to the different

[1:07:59] district leaders there because I do a

[1:08:01] lot of work in schools as I shared. And

[1:08:03] you're not going to believe this. So I

[1:08:05] don't I didn't always talk about my

[1:08:06] uncle and his profound impact on my life

[1:08:08] and how he gave me permission to feel,

[1:08:10] but I did because that's what I wrote

[1:08:11] about. And this guy who's a

[1:08:13] superintendent uh in a district up

[1:08:15] there, he's like, "Are you talking about

[1:08:17] Marvin Moore, the sixth grade social

[1:08:18] studies teacher from Monttoello, New

[1:08:20] York, I said, I am." And he goes, "Mark,

[1:08:23] you're not going to believe this. Your

[1:08:24] uncle Marvin was my uncle Marvin." I'm

[1:08:27] like, "What do you And he's like, "Your

[1:08:28] uncle was my sixth grade teacher 50

[1:08:31] years ago and he is the reason why I

[1:08:33] went into education. Your uncle was the

[1:08:34] most amazing human being. I never forget

[1:08:36] his facial expressions, his eyes, the

[1:08:37] way he talked." Like, he went on and on

[1:08:39] and on. I'm like, "Dude, I got to finish

[1:08:40] my talk." But can we talk afterwards? It

[1:08:43] was mind-blowing about how he saw my

[1:08:46] uncle like I did as his emotion ally.

[1:08:50] Now, here's what I really wanted to

[1:08:52] share, which is the the focus of this

[1:08:54] next project, which is at the end he

[1:08:58] said, "Hey, Mark, like it's pretty clear

[1:09:01] your uncle had a profound impact on your

[1:09:03] development and your whole career." I

[1:09:05] said 100%. I dedicate much of my success

[1:09:10] to him. And so he said, "Well, so for

[1:09:14] whom are you and Uncle Marvin Mark?" I'm

[1:09:15] like, "I like to do the research." And

[1:09:18] it was so eye openening to me about

[1:09:19] paying it forward. And so my hope is

[1:09:23] that in the future it won't be onethird

[1:09:26] of people across the world that say they

[1:09:28] had someone who cared about them in

[1:09:30] terms of their feelings growing up, but

[1:09:31] it would be 90 100%. And so it's kind of

[1:09:34] what have I learned from the research to

[1:09:37] support more people in showing up for

[1:09:39] other people as emotion allies?

[1:09:41] >> I look forward to talking about it with

[1:09:42] you.

[1:09:43] >> Thank you. Did Marissa, our producer,

[1:09:45] uh, prime you for the fact that we've

[1:09:46] got a new closing segment we do?

[1:09:48] >> No, but I'm happy to do whatever you

[1:09:51] want.

[1:09:51] >> Okay. So, we're we're toying with this

[1:09:53] new closing segment that we're calling

[1:09:55] What's Good. So, is there like a book, a

[1:09:58] TV show, some little practice, some

[1:10:01] movie, some something that you would

[1:10:04] recommend uh that's good in your life?

[1:10:07] And then I'll give you one. I can go

[1:10:09] first if that would be easier for you.

[1:10:10] Okay. A couple months before the America

[1:10:12] 250, I got um semi-obsessed with um the

[1:10:17] Revolutionary War and um I watched a

[1:10:20] 12-part documentary series on PBS, which

[1:10:23] is not the thing I'm recommending,

[1:10:24] although I do recommend it. Um uh but

[1:10:26] there's a book called Founding Brothers

[1:10:28] that talks about uh the founding fathers

[1:10:32] and

[1:10:34] their fraternal relationship sometimes

[1:10:37] warm sometimes Cain and Abel with one

[1:10:39] another. And it what it does is it kind

[1:10:42] of reveals that um these people that we

[1:10:45] lionize or actually on some college

[1:10:48] campuses vilify uh are

[1:10:52] complex human beings and you may have

[1:10:55] statues built to you. You might be on

[1:10:58] our currency, but you had your best self

[1:11:01] and your reflexive self. And um we can't

[1:11:06] tell one solid story about somebody,

[1:11:09] George Washington, for example. Um we

[1:11:11] think of him as a great warrior, but he

[1:11:13] lost for like the first 2 three years.

[1:11:16] He was just in retreat. We think about

[1:11:18] him as somebody who um I think

[1:11:20] justifiably as somebody who

[1:11:22] um allowed for the peaceful transfer of

[1:11:24] power, stepping down voluntarily when he

[1:11:26] could have become a kind of American

[1:11:27] Caesar. True. Also,

[1:11:31] dude traveled with a slave for much of

[1:11:33] that time in the Revolutionary War and

[1:11:35] was a slave owner and was uh largely at

[1:11:38] least initially motivated uh to buck the

[1:11:42] English because he wanted to colonize uh

[1:11:45] indigenous lands west of uh where he

[1:11:48] lived in Virginia. And so all of these

[1:11:50] things are true simultaneously. And I

[1:11:52] think that's really helpful just to

[1:11:53] understand about the founding fathers or

[1:11:56] about anybody really that we are more

[1:11:58] than one thing. So long wind up for

[1:12:00] recommending founding brothers.

[1:12:02] >> Yeah, mine is going to be much simpler.

[1:12:04] Um but I I actually um am familiar with

[1:12:07] that and and really appreciate that kind

[1:12:09] of complexity that we many of us have in

[1:12:12] our lives. I, you know, I have fifth

[1:12:14] degree black belt in the martial arts

[1:12:16] and I, you know, I'm one of those people

[1:12:18] who like was always like, you got to

[1:12:19] persevere at all costs and achieve your

[1:12:21] goals. And I've come to the conclusion

[1:12:25] observing people that what's good is

[1:12:28] play, just have fun. Like, can we just

[1:12:32] have fun? And like, I don't have to be

[1:12:33] great at everything and I can just try

[1:12:36] this out. If I don't like it, I could

[1:12:37] try something else. You know, be aware

[1:12:38] if I'm giving up because I, you know, am

[1:12:40] insecure. But I just think that I do so

[1:12:44] much work with families and parents and

[1:12:47] you know maybe it's because of the

[1:12:48] institution I work at that it's like by

[1:12:51] third grade you got to have your coach

[1:12:52] you know it's like really like try

[1:12:56] martial arts you know maybe you'll be

[1:12:58] good at maybe you won't try skiing try

[1:13:00] football swimming like just and actually

[1:13:03] if you look at the research what it

[1:13:06] shows is that some of our most um lauded

[1:13:10] Olympians

[1:13:12] were not focused on their initial sport

[1:13:14] at the beginning. They really tried a

[1:13:16] lot of things and then they found the

[1:13:17] one that they were most passionate about

[1:13:19] later on and became experts. So the good

[1:13:22] is is sort of just be flexible, have

[1:13:24] some fun.

[1:13:25] >> Just to I 100% agree with you. And just

[1:13:28] to back that up, um hopefully she's okay

[1:13:31] with me saying this, but my CEO of of my

[1:13:34] little company, Tony, who's amazing, um

[1:13:37] she often talks about how she can in her

[1:13:39] worst moments become a work robot where

[1:13:42] she's just working all the time. And I

[1:13:45] for her and for many of us, the antidote

[1:13:47] is to play, is to do, you know, for

[1:13:50] Tony, she likes to ride her bike or take

[1:13:51] hikes or garden. But what you're arguing

[1:13:53] is a step beyond that. Yes, play and try

[1:13:56] new things that you might suck at.

[1:13:58] There's real value in it.

[1:13:59] >> Actually, it's funny about play. I just

[1:14:00] thought of this. I forgot, but one of my

[1:14:02] former um researchers on at my center uh

[1:14:06] went on to be going in the gaming

[1:14:07] business and he came to visit me about 6

[1:14:10] months ago. I was like, why don't we

[1:14:12] make a game out of your work? And so, we

[1:14:14] actually built a game. It's called the

[1:14:15] point of connection. I'm going to give

[1:14:16] you one actually. And it's this fun card

[1:14:19] game where you're like getting to know

[1:14:20] people. And so we've decided that he we

[1:14:23] hadn't seen each other in like 3 years

[1:14:24] and we went out for dinner and it was

[1:14:26] like we talked for like 15 minutes and

[1:14:27] it was like uh-huh. [laughter]

[1:14:30] And then in that moment he's like what

[1:14:33] what kind of questions could we write to

[1:14:35] get to know each other better and we had

[1:14:39] so much fun. We like stayed for five

[1:14:40] hours writing questions and then we just

[1:14:42] made it into a game.

[1:14:43] >> That's great. Yeah. Okay. Is it

[1:14:45] available?

[1:14:45] >> Yeah. Okay. Point of point of connection

[1:14:47] also available through markbet.com.

[1:14:49] Okay. Mark Brackett, always a pleasure

[1:14:51] to talk to you, even more so in person.

[1:14:53] Thank you for doing this.

[1:14:54] >> Thank you for having me.

[1:14:56] >> Just a quick note before I let you go.

[1:14:57] If you're a listener to the show and

[1:14:58] you're looking for other ways to engage

[1:15:00] with my content, let me give you some

[1:15:02] options. Your first stop is danh

[1:15:04] harris.com. That's my new website and it

[1:15:06] has information and links to my

[1:15:08] meditation app. It's where you can sign

[1:15:10] up for my free newsletter. It's where

[1:15:12] you will find all the latest information

[1:15:14] on upcoming live events that I'm doing.

[1:15:16] We've also got 10% Happier Plus, which

[1:15:18] is an ad-ree subscription right inside

[1:15:21] Apple Podcast. So, that's another

[1:15:22] option. And if you would rather watch

[1:15:25] than listen, we film every episode now.

[1:15:27] Video versions are up on YouTube and

[1:15:29] Spotify. So, please like and follow

[1:15:31] whether you're watching or listening.

[1:15:33] Also, I'm on social media. I try to

[1:15:35] inject a little sanity into your feed,

[1:15:38] into the darker corners of the internet.

[1:15:39] So, just search for my name, Dan Harris,

[1:15:41] and you'll find me wherever you have a

[1:15:43] scrolling habit. All right, that was a

[1:15:45] mouthful. Thank you for being here.

[1:15:46] Deuces. Thank you so much to everybody

[1:15:49] who worked so hard to make this show.

[1:15:51] 10% Happier is produced [music] by Tara

[1:15:53] Anderson, Marissa Schneiderman, DJ

[1:15:55] Cashmir, David Hart, and Hayden Broom.

[1:15:57] Our recording and engineering is handled

[1:15:59] by the great [music] folks over at Pod

[1:16:01] People. And Nick Thorburn of the indie

[1:16:04] rock band Islands wrote our theme.

[1:16:07] Thanks for listening. Peace.

[1:16:10] [music]

Ten Percent Happier
ArtistTen Percent Happier

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Vedi il profiloSito web
Esplora i temi
Emotion-regulationEmotional-intelligenceMeta-momentSelf-regulationAnxiety

Hai domande?

Domande frequenti

Emotion regulation isn't about denying or ignoring feelings—that's biologically impossible. It's about using your emotions wisely to achieve what you want in your life. Suppression pretends feelings don't exist; regulation acknowledges them and chooses how to work with them.
Proactive regulation means setting yourself up in advance through small rituals. Brackett's doorknob habit—pausing before entering his home to check in with himself—is a simple model. Identify your high-stakes transitions (before calls, meetings, difficult conversations) and build a brief pause there to consult your best self before reactivity takes over.
The Meta Moment is a five-step protocol: Sense (notice what's happening), Stop (pause), See your best self (consult your intentional reference point), Strategize (choose a specific action), and Self-assess (reflect afterward). It turns the space between trigger and reaction into a choice point.
Not exactly. 'True self' implies a fixed, unchanging essence, but you actually have multiple selves available—different versions that emerge in different contexts. Your best self is a specific, intentional character you can consult and embody when you need to show up at your most capable and aligned with your values.
Yes. Different emotions need different strategies—'poly' or flexible regulation. Anxiety often responds to cognitive reframes like 'it's showtime,' while overwhelm needs micro-breaks and stepping away. Relational hurt might need conversation with a trusted friend. The skill is matching the right strategy to the specific emotion.
Treat it as data, not failure. Get curious: What triggered the reaction? What was actually happening underneath? How had you set yourself up to be reactive? This reflection isn't about shame—it's about learning where the habit of automatic reaction still runs deep so you can strengthen it next time.
Your best self can absolutely be fierce and assertive. Emotion regulation isn't about conflict avoidance or being a doormat—it's about intentionality. Fierce compassion is very much on the menu when the situation calls for it.
Start by noticing moments when you've handled difficulty well. What was present in you then? You might create internal characters (Brackett's host Dan Harris has Robert, Arthur, and Teacher Dan) or simply ask yourself before key transitions: 'How do I want to show up?' Over time, that reference point becomes clearer and more accessible.

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