Transcript
[0:09] uh
[0:09] specifically about
[0:13] being a layperson and living in the
[0:15] world yes
[0:17] well i'll go back to one of the
[0:21] first things that you said the
[0:24] expectations about
[0:27] how things change after awakening
[0:34] there what people expect
[0:41] is both true
[0:44] and false because uh
[0:49] of the fundamental
[0:53] misperception of the nature of
[0:57] of everything i don't know the way this
[1:00] is
[1:01] that awakening is all about after
[1:04] awakening life
[1:06] is seen to be as good
[1:10] as it always was uh it's just that
[1:13] before you didn't recognize that it was
[1:15] good
[1:16] life still has just as many obstacles
[1:20] as it ever did perhaps more
[1:24] it does seem you know it's a bit of a
[1:28] cliche but there's some real truth in it
[1:30] that
[1:31] uh life or the universe or whatever you
[1:34] want to think however you want to think
[1:35] about it
[1:37] gives us only gives us the challenges
[1:40] that we have the potential
[1:41] to deal with so
[1:44] it's more the recognition that life is
[1:47] and always has been
[1:50] good in a more ultimate sense that it's
[1:53] really unfolding as it should
[1:56] uh and
[2:00] you know in terms of the obstacles the
[2:03] buddha himself made this clear
[2:05] that no matter what you're going to age
[2:09] he aged you're going to be subject to
[2:12] injury
[2:12] and illness he was subject to injury and
[2:15] illness
[2:17] there's many references in the suit as
[2:20] to
[2:21] the physical ailments that he suffered
[2:24] as he
[2:24] got older injuries that he sustained
[2:28] one in particular when his cousin
[2:31] devadatta
[2:32] had rolled the boulder down and
[2:34] lacerated his foot and became
[2:37] obviously infected clearly
[2:41] problematic but sickness aging
[2:44] injury and ultimately death are always a
[2:47] part
[2:47] of life and i think what the buddha was
[2:50] pointing to
[2:50] in that is that that life
[2:54] was always going to be that way that
[2:58] being awakening isn't going to change
[3:01] uh the way that the way that
[3:05] reality unfolds
[3:09] it changes our perception of it
[3:12] in such a way that maybe the best way
[3:15] for
[3:17] a layperson
[3:20] looking at you know what can i
[3:23] expect from this
[3:30] they might develop expectations that are
[3:33] unrealistic
[3:34] but their basic expectation
[3:39] is actually fulfilled there are no fewer
[3:42] challenges in life
[3:44] but one no longer sees them
[3:48] from the vantage point of i know better
[3:51] how things should be than where they are
[3:55] right for a lay person
[4:03] this is this is one of the things that
[4:05] is something of a
[4:07] conundrum in buddhism because
[4:12] with the buddha he was encouraging
[4:16] people
[4:16] to give up the worldly life and become
[4:19] homeless wanderers
[4:21] but even during his life those
[4:24] wonders became more settled places were
[4:28] built for them to
[4:29] stay spend their brains retreats and
[4:32] things like that
[4:35] eventually there was this complete
[4:38] separation of those who
[4:42] fully embraced the dharma as monastics
[4:46] and complete withdrawal from the world
[4:48] and this became strongly entrenched
[4:50] in most most schools of buddhism
[4:54] to a greater or lesser degree and there
[4:56] are variations of course
[4:58] as with everything but um
[5:01] uh now an
[5:04] interesting thing if you look at the
[5:06] elephant diagram that i used in the mind
[5:09] eliminated
[5:10] and likewise if you look at the hoof
[5:13] prince of the ox
[5:14] which is uh very similar
[5:18] in at the very last
[5:22] thing you see in the elephant diagram
[5:25] is the elephant is now going back the
[5:27] other way
[5:28] the monk is astride the elephant he's
[5:31] holding the sword of wisdom and he's
[5:34] cutting through
[5:36] the cutting through using that wisdom to
[5:39] cut
[5:40] through ignorance the last image
[5:43] in the hoof prints diagram
[5:46] is a return to the marketplace there is
[5:50] this
[5:50] acknowledgement that has been there in
[5:53] traditional buddhism
[5:54] from two very disparate traditions that
[5:58] one is tibetan and the other is uh is uh
[6:02] well it's a chinese chan but also the
[6:06] then
[6:08] and in both of them then there is an
[6:11] acknowledgement
[6:12] of this return to the marketplace that
[6:15] seems not to have ever become
[6:18] firmly established in people's
[6:20] understanding
[6:22] i on the other hand feel like
[6:25] there could be no other outcome and
[6:29] the image of the forest recluse
[6:33] or the sage in a mountain cave
[6:37] or just simply somebody retired into a
[6:40] monastery
[6:42] after awakening that is actually a case
[6:46] of
[6:46] arrested spiritual development
[6:51] to complete the process uh well no let
[6:54] me take that back
[6:56] it's not as though there's ever a
[6:57] completion of the process but to
[6:59] continue the process
[7:02] it's necessary to rejoin
[7:06] the world that it was necessary to
[7:08] withdraw from perhaps for a period
[7:10] in order to accomplish this
[7:13] [Music]
[7:15] and i think what my teacher
[7:18] recognized and something that was
[7:21] becoming
[7:22] more obvious to many people and
[7:25] was very appropriate for buddhism coming
[7:28] to the west
[7:29] was this recognition that
[7:34] that there was a place for buddhism in
[7:37] lay life other than supporting
[7:39] monasteries other than trying to
[7:41] quote accumulate enough merit to be
[7:44] reborn to become a monk
[7:47] you know and become awakened
[7:53] and in a conversation with uh
[7:56] high tibetan llama geshe dorje
[8:01] we discussed this very thing and
[8:04] he agreed that the uh the past
[8:07] of the lay practitioner was more
[8:10] challenging
[8:11] but ultimately more powerful
[8:14] was the way that he put it it's more
[8:16] powerful and i think there's an implicit
[8:18] recognition
[8:20] of that in the vajrayana yeah
[8:25] yeah so
[8:30] well let's move on from that and and
[8:31] look at exactly how you've practiced
[8:33] because you didn't
[8:35] i mean you did not go and live in a
[8:36] monastery i mean you you did seek out
[8:38] um a contemplative life at uh
[8:42] as you as you retired as i understand it
[8:44] but
[8:45] um you never fully went monastic
[8:48] as they say uh you didn't become
[8:51] entirely become a monk
[8:52] um no i i did spend almost two years
[8:57] as a catholic seminarian yeah which
[9:00] was a very significant movement in that
[9:04] direction
[9:05] yeah i would say i tried it out
[9:09] and i think that that's the thing on if
[9:11] i look at the the you know the the
[9:12] reddit community where people post a lot
[9:14] of questions about
[9:16] their experiences with tmi and and in
[9:18] general
[9:19] i mean one of the big questions comes up
[9:21] comes up as like i
[9:22] like my job i want to keep working i
[9:24] have a family that i want to support
[9:27] you know going off and leaving my family
[9:29] behind is neither
[9:30] desirable nor um nor possible
[9:34] so i suppose what i want to ask you then
[9:37] is um
[9:38] let's start off by looking at uh your
[9:41] life growing up
[9:42] how did you go from what was your
[9:44] childhood like what was your
[9:46] life like and and how did you go from
[9:49] that into
[9:49] buddhism and and becoming chula dasa
[9:53] sort of
[9:54] give me the the david copperfield i was
[9:56] born i grew up
[9:58] in as much detail as do you think it is
[10:00] useful for for people to know
[10:04] maybe i should begin by uh
[10:07] just sort of a
[10:10] broad overview and a few
[10:14] sweeping strokes so yeah
[10:17] the first 15 years of my life
[10:21] uh well the first 14 years of my life i
[10:25] should say
[10:26] were pretty sequestered
[10:29] it was a very unusual family situation
[10:33] [Music]
[10:35] i didn't attend school
[10:38] with any kind of consistency i never
[10:40] really became socialized
[10:42] never became part of a peer group i was
[10:46] there was a lot of physical and
[10:49] psychological abuse
[10:51] in my childhood very
[10:55] very unhealthy relationships between
[10:58] myself my parents and my siblings
[11:01] had had really severe
[11:06] consequences for for myself
[11:09] and my brother and two sisters
[11:13] i left home like my 15th
[11:16] let me between my 14th and 15th
[11:19] birthdays
[11:20] uh was probably the most
[11:24] extremely traumatic year of my entire
[11:27] life
[11:28] i left home in the summer of my 15th
[11:32] birthday
[11:33] and i basically lived on the streets
[11:37] well over a period of about three years
[11:40] not
[11:41] entirely on the streets but bouncing
[11:43] around between
[11:45] different situations that were very much
[11:47] you know i
[11:48] i was i was
[11:52] a runaway from home um
[11:58] as i approached my 18th birthday
[12:03] i looked around me at people whose
[12:06] lifestyle i had been sharing over the
[12:08] previous three years
[12:10] [Music]
[12:12] and i came to the conclusion that this
[12:14] isn't what i wanted for myself
[12:18] there was another very major thing that
[12:22] was a factor in this you know i can go
[12:24] into
[12:25] detail about this later but the nature
[12:28] of
[12:29] the first that first 14 years of my life
[12:32] was that i had been
[12:36] led to hold
[12:39] a belief about the way things were in
[12:42] the world
[12:44] that i think would be frankly described
[12:47] as psychotic
[12:51] i was a bit of a you know
[12:55] uh remus and romulus raised by wolves
[12:58] totally out of touch with normal human
[13:02] interactions in reality what made
[13:05] what made that final year so traumatic
[13:08] for me was
[13:09] being thrust into a situation where that
[13:12] became
[13:12] so very very evident
[13:16] one of the things that came out of that
[13:18] was a powerful
[13:20] powerful recognition
[13:23] that what i had believed to be the way
[13:27] things
[13:27] are was totally
[13:31] deluded now you'll recognize
[13:34] something that's certainly yeah right i
[13:37] had no
[13:38] i had no access at all to the framework
[13:40] that i do now to understand that in
[13:43] but that was a rather profound
[13:45] realization that circumstances had
[13:48] driven me towards so i became
[13:53] a totally driven seeker after the truth
[13:56] if i'd been living in this delusional
[13:58] life i had to find out what was true
[14:00] what was real the first thing i had to
[14:02] do was get out of my family environment
[14:05] and i began to search for truth in
[14:10] in religion and philosophy and science
[14:13] these were the places where i had hoped
[14:14] to find answers
[14:18] but anyway back to the broad strokes
[14:22] sweeping strokes so
[14:25] not not only
[14:29] did i recognize that i did not want to
[14:33] continue to be part
[14:34] of the life that i had been living
[14:38] since i left home but
[14:42] as a part of the search i'd really come
[14:45] to the profound conclusion
[14:47] that no one really knew what
[14:51] this was all about
[14:54] and that if i was going to find out
[14:57] i was going to have to find out on my
[14:59] own and i wasn't going to be able to do
[15:01] it
[15:02] as as a homeless homeless person
[15:05] living on the fringes of society right
[15:10] so i said about
[15:14] on a totally unrealistic mission
[15:17] to pull myself out of that and to
[15:21] have a place in the world from which i
[15:24] could
[15:25] pursue these ends
[15:31] it's an interesting thing i don't know
[15:32] if you're familiar with gerta's
[15:37] short dissertation on commitment
[15:44] well i just happen to have that
[15:47] open somewhere here if i can find it i
[15:49] can just read it to you because
[15:51] it's useful it has defined so much
[15:55] of of my life indeed
[15:58] that i'll
[16:03] okay let me sorry by who did you say
[16:06] goethe yeah
[16:09] uh as in the the german poets
[16:13] uh writer goethe g-o-e-t-h-e
[16:16] yes that's right okay
[16:19] oh my goodness of course when i want to
[16:21] find something i've read his faults
[16:24] but that's that's about it
[16:29] well it's actually a poem a poem okay
[16:33] so very quickly until one is committed
[16:38] there is hesitancy
[16:40] the chance to draw back always
[16:42] ineffectiveness
[16:43] concerning acts of initiative and
[16:45] creation
[16:46] there is one elementary truth the
[16:49] ignorance of which
[16:50] kills countless ideas and splendid plans
[16:54] that the moment one definitely commits
[16:57] oneself
[16:58] then providence moves to all sorts of
[17:02] things
[17:03] occur to help one that would never
[17:05] otherwise have occurred
[17:07] a whole stream of events issues from the
[17:10] decision
[17:11] raising in one's favor all manner of
[17:14] unforeseen events
[17:15] and meetings and material assistance
[17:18] which no man could have dreamt
[17:20] would have come his way whatever you can
[17:23] do
[17:24] or dream you can begin it oldness has
[17:28] genius power and magic in it
[17:31] begin it now so
[17:34] i discovered that a few years
[17:37] after uh the
[17:42] series of just basically miracles that
[17:45] allowed me to go from being a homeless
[17:48] adolescent
[17:49] to who had never attended high school
[17:53] much less graduated
[17:55] [Music]
[17:56] and who eventually uh
[17:59] gotta got a phd had a successful
[18:04] professional career and a fulfilling
[18:06] spiritual life
[18:10] and i felt like gerda had touched on
[18:14] something that was
[18:15] incredibly true that i had had the good
[18:18] fortune
[18:19] that in the unfolding
[18:23] of reality to be directed into the
[18:26] discovery of that
[18:28] quite by accident
[18:31] anyway so
[18:35] i continued my search being able to get
[18:38] into university was an incredible
[18:40] experience for me i wanted to learn
[18:43] everything there was
[18:44] about everything my
[18:47] previous excursions into
[18:51] philosophy when i was trying to stay off
[18:54] the cold streets in the in the winter
[18:58] in the county library
[19:03] i was able to pursue those more deeply
[19:06] in the academic environment
[19:10] science i took every science course that
[19:14] i was
[19:14] eligible to get into and
[19:18] it was it was wonderful because
[19:21] the university i attended was also a
[19:24] seminary
[19:26] and i had during my time on the streets
[19:30] i
[19:31] i had directed my attention towards
[19:34] the spiritual side of things i knew
[19:36] nothing other than
[19:38] christianity i knew that the catholic
[19:42] church
[19:42] was essentially what persisted today
[19:46] from the original church
[19:47] so i undertook
[19:51] studies and catholicism
[19:54] then when the opportunity was there
[19:56] years later
[19:58] i became a seminarian for almost two
[20:00] years
[20:03] that didn't work out
[20:07] so you know i moved on from
[20:11] there uh i
[20:14] became very much a part
[20:18] of the uh of the hippie generation of
[20:22] that time
[20:23] uh experimented with well i went far
[20:26] beyond experimenting i would say
[20:28] with many different psychoactive
[20:29] substances
[20:31] and this was tremendously enhancing
[20:34] to the growing understanding that i had
[20:37] been developing over the years
[20:40] and it was an appropriate place place
[20:41] for me to
[20:43] arrive at following my disenchantment
[20:45] with uh
[20:47] with what the
[20:50] catholic priesthood had to offer
[20:53] um what i realized out of all of that
[20:56] though was
[20:59] that while it opened the gates of
[21:03] doors of perception very much so
[21:06] and provided a lot of understanding it
[21:08] did so in a very
[21:10] unreliable manner that's when i became
[21:13] aware that there were
[21:14] mystical traditions both western and
[21:17] eastern
[21:18] where exactly these kinds of
[21:22] realizations and discoveries were being
[21:24] cultivated
[21:26] uh in a much much more
[21:29] consistent manner and so i became
[21:32] interested in that
[21:33] and but i didn't really know how to
[21:35] pursue it it wasn't something that was
[21:38] available where i lived at that
[21:40] particular
[21:41] time in history i did though after a few
[21:44] years
[21:45] when it during my phd studies
[21:49] encounter buddhist teachings
[21:53] and i quickly recognized that
[21:56] this at least promised more of what i
[21:59] had been looking for
[22:01] than anything that i had looked into
[22:03] before
[22:04] so my life after that was pretty much on
[22:06] the track two parallel tracks of science
[22:09] and buddhism and buddhist practice
[22:12] my life went through many other
[22:16] convolutions after that nothing as
[22:18] extreme as
[22:19] what the first uh
[22:23] two and a half decades of my life have
[22:26] been
[22:30] and yeah i think that gives you sort of
[22:34] a broad broad overview yeah so there are
[22:38] a number of things there that i think
[22:39] would be
[22:40] uh worth going into some detail on
[22:43] and you and i did discuss before the
[22:45] time that uh
[22:46] you know we we would speak in in uh
[22:50] more detail than uh you might have done
[22:54] before in one sort of one interview
[22:56] because you have spoken in detail about
[22:58] certain things
[22:59] um to guru viking and michael taft and
[23:02] so forth
[23:04] what i was saying to you when we pause
[23:06] the recording to find the poem which was
[23:08] really
[23:09] lovely i mean i think that's something
[23:11] that every
[23:12] uh dharma practitioner can hold close to
[23:15] their to their heart
[23:17] because it does take a significant
[23:19] commitment this
[23:21] this path um but what we talked about
[23:25] is um that you know people who are
[23:28] generally happy
[23:29] with their lives um and
[23:33] feel successful and and so forth
[23:36] um are not typically the kinds of people
[23:40] who seek out meditation and
[23:43] dharma training or and for most people i
[23:46] think the start particularly here in the
[23:47] west is
[23:48] is with meditation you know we come to
[23:51] the dharma and we come to meditation
[23:53] from pain and suffering um and in order
[23:56] to relieve that and
[23:57] there's a large which i think will
[23:59] something we'll address a little bit
[24:01] later
[24:02] in one of the future recordings but um
[24:06] you know there's a large number of
[24:08] people who deal with
[24:09] uh mental illness such as depression
[24:12] anxiety
[24:14] substance use all sorts of things that
[24:16] they
[24:18] that they want help with and this
[24:21] presents a very
[24:22] uh promising and enticing sort of thing
[24:25] and particularly trauma you know that's
[24:27] something that does come up a lot
[24:29] would would you would you be able to
[24:32] talk to us a little bit about some of
[24:33] the specific
[24:34] um experiences you had growing up and
[24:38] how that affected you
[24:39] and how that uh led to you eventually
[24:42] leaving home and
[24:43] and then we'll talk a little bit about
[24:45] the seminary
[24:46] uh how that was and then your time at
[24:48] university because i know
[24:50] uh at some stage you mentioned you were
[24:52] you were considered
[24:53] the resident trip doctor and and that
[24:56] sort of thing
[24:57] and then how you uh how your academic
[25:00] life went
[25:00] and um uh why you left that
[25:04] you know academia and research and then
[25:08] talking a little bit about about how you
[25:10] got into
[25:11] really studying uh the dharma and
[25:14] making progress with that and then uh
[25:16] your awakening and all of that so we'll
[25:18] take the
[25:19] the real narrative arc here as if we are
[25:21] watching a movie
[25:23] uh so go for it all right
[25:27] well the my childhood was
[25:32] traumatic there was a physical abuse
[25:35] aspect to it
[25:37] um i was from
[25:43] almost as early as as
[25:47] i can remember in my relationship with
[25:50] my father
[25:52] uh severely beaten and with increasing
[25:56] frequency i think this
[25:57] probably started about
[26:00] oh maybe around
[26:04] age three or four and the older i got
[26:08] the the more severe that physical abuse
[26:11] aspect became
[26:13] at the same time my mother
[26:16] was very inappropriately attached
[26:20] and dependent upon me emotionally
[26:25] uh the one result of that was that
[26:29] she kept me out of school as much as
[26:32] possible
[26:35] and once she had set that process in
[26:37] motion
[26:39] subsequent attempts by
[26:42] school and other authorities and my
[26:45] father
[26:46] to try to change that i was very
[26:48] resistant to
[26:50] because for me
[26:53] being fussed into the
[26:56] school environment was an extremely
[27:00] unpleasant uh and
[27:04] your experience my mother was more than
[27:07] happy
[27:09] to keep me sequestered in her presence
[27:11] fulfilling her needs
[27:15] and i suppose there were so many
[27:19] things that she aspired to that that
[27:22] she maybe hoped that she could
[27:25] experience vicariously through me
[27:29] as you know looking back on this from a
[27:32] later perspective
[27:34] with regard to my father
[27:38] he was suffering very severe
[27:42] ptsd what would be recognized now as
[27:44] ptsd
[27:46] there wasn't at the time he had
[27:50] within a month of his having married my
[27:53] mother
[27:54] uh he met her after he'd already
[27:57] actually enlisted in the us army during
[27:59] world war ii
[28:02] within about a month after his getting
[28:04] married
[28:06] he was shipped out to europe he was
[28:08] involved
[28:09] in some of the most
[28:12] extreme and bitterest fighting
[28:16] across france and eventually
[28:19] into germany the closer
[28:23] the allied forces came to the german
[28:26] border
[28:27] the more desperate the fighting became
[28:31] and that's that's what my father arrived
[28:33] in the middle of
[28:35] wow and then because he
[28:38] spoke german and i don't know what other
[28:40] reasons led to it
[28:42] rather than being allowed to return home
[28:45] when when the fighting was actually over
[28:47] when the war ended
[28:50] they kept him there for um
[28:53] i don't know another year or so as a
[28:56] part of the occupation forces
[28:59] and that in itself i can see was
[29:02] enormously traumatic
[29:03] he returned you know when he left
[29:07] my mother was pregnant they'd only been
[29:09] married less than a month
[29:11] when he came back you know i was
[29:15] i was a toddler and i my mother's
[29:18] life revolved around
[29:22] her infant child and her infant child
[29:25] knew nothing else
[29:26] but this i think for my father
[29:32] i'm sure as with most soldiers in combat
[29:35] you know the fact that he had someone at
[29:39] home to return to
[29:40] but when he did return in a traumatized
[29:43] state
[29:43] here she was totally involved with
[29:46] someone else right
[29:48] and i think that his ptsd
[29:54] you know it involved a huge amount of
[29:56] anger
[29:57] resist resentment frustration
[30:00] really directed at all kinds of other
[30:02] things but
[30:04] was unable to channel it in any
[30:07] healthy ways and so it's just a
[30:10] confluence of
[30:11] circumstances i became the target for
[30:13] that
[30:15] but anyway the physical abuse was real
[30:18] and
[30:18] continued and my relationship with my
[30:20] father
[30:21] was extremely difficult my mother
[30:25] on the other hand she had a lot of
[30:28] psychological problems that were not
[30:30] realized
[30:31] recognized by anyone else she was
[30:34] an absolutely brilliant woman and very
[30:37] talented
[30:41] but subsequent to my leaving home she
[30:43] had
[30:44] a complete psychotic break and
[30:47] a lot of her pre-existing
[30:50] psychiatric problems became evident she
[30:53] was ended up being diagnosed with
[30:56] several very severe personality
[30:58] disorders
[31:03] basically she
[31:06] was generating her own reality
[31:09] as i look at it now as the only way that
[31:13] she could cope
[31:15] um with life with the circumstances she
[31:18] found herself in and
[31:22] i had filled an enormous need from the
[31:25] time of my birth and she continued to
[31:27] depend on me
[31:28] for that
[31:31] and the only thing that i knew about the
[31:34] world
[31:35] people human relationships was a
[31:37] distorted version
[31:38] that i got from my mother who as i say
[31:42] i mean her view of the world was
[31:46] it did fit the definition of a psychotic
[31:49] worldview
[31:50] but it was not in the form that
[31:52] everybody else would say
[31:54] oh there's something really seriously
[31:55] wrong with that person
[31:57] it was a sort that that uh
[32:01] could remain camouflaged and people
[32:04] close enough to realize that there was
[32:05] something wrong
[32:06] you know like my father for example and
[32:10] maybe some family members and things
[32:11] like that
[32:13] either didn't want to or unable to
[32:16] to accept that
[32:20] and uh try to do anything about it until
[32:22] my leaving home
[32:24] produced a total collapse in here and of
[32:26] course back then people as you said
[32:28] didn't know about things like
[32:29] ptsd it wasn't well recognized and they
[32:32] didn't know about
[32:33] uh schizotype or personality disorders
[32:36] and
[32:36] and borderline personality disorders and
[32:40] things like that i mean we've come so
[32:41] far
[32:42] and even if people did know about mental
[32:45] illness people didn't talk about it
[32:47] because there was such a you know such a
[32:49] tremendous stigma about these things
[32:52] that's true yes and and particularly
[32:56] children growing up
[32:57] in in in these kinds of environments of
[33:01] very affected so that that all makes
[33:04] sense to me
[33:07] well i certainly was
[33:10] i during my childhood like i say had
[33:14] very very little exposure to anything
[33:17] outside of my home
[33:19] my attendance at school you know i if
[33:22] if there was a week that i actually
[33:24] attended school for
[33:26] three days i think it was fairly unusual
[33:29] uh there were all kinds of things that
[33:31] went on in association with that
[33:33] i won't go into here but
[33:37] the state of things was such at that
[33:39] time
[33:40] that this could happen i don't think
[33:43] in today's world
[33:47] that could have happened but in the
[33:48] 1950s
[33:50] like late 40s 1950s it could
[33:53] and it did
[33:57] so like i say i
[34:00] the only world i knew was my mother's
[34:03] world
[34:04] and my limited exposure to anything else
[34:08] well
[34:09] i when i attended first grade
[34:15] and once again i was rarely in
[34:17] attendance but my first grade teacher
[34:21] very much favored me this created
[34:23] resentment i
[34:25] remember in a relatively small
[34:29] community within a small city
[34:32] okay and so
[34:37] there's a lot of whoever it was that
[34:41] you lived in the same area with you
[34:43] would go to school with
[34:44] right yeah see each other at the
[34:48] shopping center and
[34:50] with the shops
[34:53] neighbors live down the street across
[34:55] the street around the corner
[34:58] so my first grade teacher
[35:02] favored me i wasn't present enough to
[35:06] achieve any kind of integration with my
[35:10] school peer group i
[35:14] yeah i wasn't i i didn't attend school
[35:17] very much
[35:19] i as if i wouldn't
[35:22] already have been a kind of outsider i
[35:24] became
[35:25] even more of an outsider because all
[35:27] these other six-year-olds
[35:29] you know they didn't like the fact that
[35:31] that somebody who wasn't even
[35:33] participating in the expected way
[35:37] was receiving all this favor in second
[35:40] grade
[35:42] it was the same group of people the same
[35:45] circumstances that i was coming from
[35:48] and i had a different teacher who was
[35:51] just
[35:53] totally the opposite and
[35:57] she essentially fed the resentment
[36:00] that had already developed uh
[36:03] during first degree right yeah yeah
[36:08] and i became even more alienated
[36:11] and also the whole the whole school
[36:15] situation
[36:16] became very unpleasant for me
[36:20] in a way that i hadn't the year before
[36:24] now small school
[36:27] who should turn out to be my third grade
[36:29] teacher
[36:30] but the same teacher from first grade
[36:35] interesting somebody couldn't have
[36:38] orchestrated
[36:39] the system uh more
[36:42] appropriately to have
[36:46] produced as much alienation as possible
[36:48] between
[36:49] the school school system
[36:52] by peer group right because in
[36:55] attachment terms we would say you really
[36:57] had very little
[36:58] uh security to attack the moment that
[37:01] you attached
[37:02] to people then uh you know it was then
[37:04] taken away from you and then brought
[37:06] back and so that
[37:07] creates a great deal of of uncertainty
[37:09] and
[37:10] and distrust with people right
[37:18] so that that gives you a bit of a
[37:21] window into some of the psychological
[37:26] processes that were taking place in my
[37:28] early childhood development
[37:33] my brother was born when i was about
[37:36] three years old
[37:37] and my father gave him
[37:41] his name identified with him totally
[37:44] as his son
[37:48] my brother and i shared a bedroom and as
[37:50] he got older
[37:51] he freely helped himself to anything
[37:55] that was mine
[37:57] if i'd ever tried to establish any kind
[38:00] of boundary
[38:03] uh with my younger brother
[38:07] uh he would just be all daddy and i'd
[38:10] have another beating coming up
[38:12] if he was the chosen one he could do no
[38:14] wrong
[38:15] the things he did were so outrageous i
[38:18] was
[38:19] the good little boy and i was the one
[38:21] that was always being punished
[38:23] i mean right there with something that
[38:26] was
[38:26] you know i can look back on it and say
[38:29] wow
[38:31] that must have really twisted me around
[38:34] sure
[38:35] i mean and experiencing it it was just
[38:38] the way things are
[38:39] yeah i had nothing to compare it to
[38:42] right you didn't know any better you
[38:43] didn't know that people
[38:45] yeah this is what so often what kids
[38:46] report is they go well i just thought
[38:48] this is how every
[38:49] all children live like this is normal
[38:52] yeah
[38:54] yeah i look look back on it and see it
[38:56] just
[38:57] so differently and and shake my head you
[39:00] know
[39:00] yeah so
[39:07] this one of the thing one of the
[39:10] dynamics too that i
[39:12] i think was really difficult for me as a
[39:15] child
[39:16] my mother was so dependent upon me
[39:19] to meet her needs of course this was
[39:21] very unhealthy
[39:23] this would have the effect it had on her
[39:27] relationship with my father
[39:29] and the fact that that had on my father
[39:32] of course
[39:32] i can understand now the pain
[39:35] that that must have caused him and
[39:40] just made me increasingly the
[39:44] object of of his his anger and his
[39:48] resent
[39:54] well let's just jump ahead to this when
[39:57] i was 14 years old
[39:59] uh my father was doing well enough he
[40:01] was a
[40:02] research chemist he's quite successful
[40:05] uh he was working in private industry
[40:08] and
[40:09] you know so he was he was rewarded in
[40:13] ways that an academic would not have
[40:15] been
[40:18] so when he was
[40:21] able now both he and my mother had grown
[40:23] up during the great depression
[40:25] so they were extremely frugal and
[40:27] careful with money
[40:29] but when my father felt that within his
[40:32] frugality he could afford to
[40:35] they moved to a rural community
[40:39] that he could commute from
[40:42] it was in the sort of transition area
[40:46] between
[40:47] the bayou country and the pine forests
[40:51] of texas a very beautiful place
[40:55] huge majestic trees spanish moss hanging
[40:58] down
[40:59] you know all these sorts of things
[41:02] compared to the
[41:04] horrible industrial environment of the
[41:07] of the
[41:08] city where my father worked and where we
[41:09] lived for
[41:11] a number of years
[41:15] so when i was 14
[41:19] i was in a completely new community
[41:22] not only that there was
[41:25] absolutely zero tolerance for me
[41:28] not you know they they received my
[41:30] school records
[41:32] they knew they knew about all the things
[41:35] that had happened
[41:36] from grade six to grade eight my
[41:39] minimalist uh to nothing attendance
[41:43] the fact that i was still able to i mean
[41:45] i was a straight a student all the way
[41:47] through elementary
[41:48] and junior high school
[41:52] but i just never attended classes it was
[41:55] a constant
[41:56] struggle uh the school
[41:59] and my father trying to change things
[42:02] and my mother
[42:03] and i doing everything we could to
[42:05] prevent that i mean
[42:06] when my father would insist that i leave
[42:09] to go to school and he was not going to
[42:11] go to work until
[42:12] he knew that i was was going away
[42:16] except i would not go into the school
[42:18] i'd go off and i'd hide
[42:20] and the school would call and my mother
[42:22] would freak out and
[42:23] you know i would show up after school
[42:25] was supposed to be out
[42:27] and she would be totally distraught and
[42:30] that school would call my father and oh
[42:33] it just it went on and on
[42:36] anyway when i moved when we moved to
[42:38] this rural community
[42:41] they would have none of this and it was
[42:44] made clear to me
[42:45] that you know when i registered for the
[42:47] school here it was a four-year high
[42:49] school
[42:50] i was going into as a freshman into this
[42:52] high school
[42:54] and i was going to maintain an expected
[42:57] level of attendance
[42:59] or else
[43:03] that was the most painful year of my
[43:04] life because
[43:07] of course i was 14 years old
[43:11] for an adolescent acceptance uh
[43:14] is is the most crucial thing in the
[43:16] world right
[43:18] but i was i was a total anomaly anyway
[43:23] i was this was people that had grown up
[43:26] together
[43:27] and knew each other well and i was in
[43:30] every possible way the new kid in town
[43:33] but with a background that was totally
[43:36] incomprehensible to
[43:38] to them and i was thrust more or less
[43:42] full time into a world that was totally
[43:43] incomprehensible to me
[43:49] talking to other students trying to
[43:52] fit in trying to speak up
[43:56] and join in conversations the words that
[43:58] came out of my mouth
[43:59] would elicit a reaction like oh my god
[44:02] what a weirdo
[44:05] and i was i was and and i
[44:08] was very aware of that from their
[44:10] reactions
[44:13] as if being a teenager in in high school
[44:15] isn't difficult enough
[44:16] i think you had everything stacked
[44:19] against you right every possible
[44:23] thing that that could be uh
[44:25] disadvantageous in that situation
[44:28] yeah it was a terribly traumatic thing
[44:32] uh i was through
[44:36] unpredictable circumstances thrown into
[44:38] contact
[44:39] with similar
[44:43] alienated outsiders mostly from a more
[44:48] what would it say uh
[44:52] well typical outsiders yeah more typical
[44:55] outsiders
[44:56] uh who are involved in a lot of things
[45:00] uh truancy
[45:04] vandalism theft a lot of rebellious
[45:07] extreme forms of adolescent rebellion
[45:11] and some of which extended i ended up
[45:14] with one friend who was
[45:16] from a mafia family yeah his total
[45:19] aspiration
[45:20] you know at at the age of 15
[45:24] 16 was you know he wanted to become a
[45:26] made man
[45:27] he wanted to uh
[45:31] he wanted to serve his first prison term
[45:33] because that was sort of a
[45:35] emblem of uh of accomplishment
[45:39] and and the circles that he'd grown up
[45:42] in
[45:42] so these really twisted values and
[45:45] things that people
[45:46] an alienation and all of that sort of
[45:50] thing
[45:51] right and i didn't
[45:54] that in itself didn't appeal to me but
[45:57] i was in this in the midst of this
[46:01] pain and this anger and this resentment
[46:05] and this rebellion against everything
[46:08] and they accepted you they accepted me
[46:12] and not only that they exemplified
[46:15] how you go about behaving in rebellion
[46:18] against
[46:19] society and parents and authority in
[46:22] general
[46:24] and that that sort of built me up to the
[46:28] point
[46:28] of making the break leaving
[46:32] leaving home leaving my family going out
[46:35] into the world on my own
[46:36] escaping the physical abuse the
[46:39] emotional
[46:40] abuse from my mother i mean i didn't
[46:43] know it was emotional abuse at that time
[46:45] but
[46:46] being both totally dependent upon her
[46:48] and her being totally dependent on me
[46:51] i was responsible on a daily basis for
[46:53] her happiness
[46:55] now i was realizing that my mother had
[46:57] essentially
[46:58] destroyed me by filling my head with all
[47:01] kinds of things that weren't true
[47:03] that that became so apparent in that
[47:06] year
[47:07] and i hated my father
[47:10] i hated my mother i hated everything
[47:14] uh the the pain uh the pain
[47:17] and the anger and resentment was just
[47:20] overwhelming
[47:21] and so well people use the word
[47:25] people use the word hate quite easily
[47:27] nowadays but
[47:28] from what you're telling me i can it
[47:31] seems to me like there was a real
[47:32] intense intensely passionate
[47:36] uh hatred going on there and resentment
[47:39] and
[47:39] and bewilderment and anger and all those
[47:42] things
[47:43] yes there was at the same time there was
[47:46] this enormous determination that
[47:49] i am going to make sense of this you
[47:51] know
[47:52] as i say i was coming to realize that
[47:55] nobody really
[47:56] knew what was going on everybody was
[47:58] living in their own reality
[48:01] and their
[48:04] apparent agreement about things was only
[48:08] that it was apparent
[48:09] yeah yeah and so i all of this was
[48:13] combined
[48:14] all of this anger and hatred and
[48:16] resentment and the pain that i had dirt
[48:19] was also combined with this
[48:22] determination that not only was i going
[48:24] to get myself out of the situation
[48:26] i was going to find the answers what is
[48:29] really
[48:30] all about because some people right
[48:32] would go and say
[48:33] well how i'm going to deal with all this
[48:36] anger is i'm going to become
[48:38] you know a gang member or a mafioso or
[48:40] whatever
[48:42] and then there are in my opinion much
[48:44] rarer individuals who say
[48:46] well i'm going to figure out a way out
[48:48] of this and lead a life
[48:50] like a good life uh figure out what that
[48:53] means what a good life
[48:54] and how to achieve it yeah and that's
[48:58] that's what the next three years were
[49:00] really about i mean i
[49:02] naturally got absorbed into that when i
[49:04] left home
[49:06] homeless kid on the streets i
[49:08] immediately drew the attention
[49:10] of the gangs the street gangs
[49:13] that whose turf i suddenly appeared on
[49:16] right
[49:17] well you've got it you've got to survive
[49:19] so and there you are on the
[49:21] on they turf and that they go well i've
[49:24] got to deal with this kid
[49:26] that's right and really thanks to my
[49:29] contact with
[49:30] with his name was eddie
[49:34] and these other people i
[49:37] basically had the language and the
[49:40] conceptual framework
[49:42] to manage to uh to manage to
[49:45] interact with us and so whereas i never
[49:48] became
[49:50] a firmly entrenched member of these
[49:52] gangs
[49:53] but rather what i think in
[49:56] modern terminology yeah i mean this
[49:59] preceded
[50:00] crips and bloods and things like that by
[50:03] a couple of decades maybe or at least i
[50:06] don't know
[50:07] i don't know the history of the crypts
[50:08] and bloods but it was sort of an
[50:09] evolution of
[50:11] street gangs that took place uh over
[50:13] that period of the 50s and 60s
[50:17] where were you then when when uh when
[50:19] you were out on the streets
[50:21] well i was in uh galveston texas texas
[50:24] okay okay so you're out on the streets
[50:27] but
[50:27] they've sort of accepted you uh as well
[50:30] like they're not they don't have an
[50:32] issue with you
[50:33] that's right i i fit right in and
[50:36] i knew the language and i was filled
[50:39] with enough anger
[50:40] uh and rebellion that uh you know
[50:44] uh i i could win my place
[50:48] you had your bona fides right my
[50:50] bonafides
[50:51] that's right i had my bonus lies
[50:54] but like i say i also
[50:58] well i had nowhere else to go really
[51:01] and i wasn't going to be accepted
[51:02] anywhere else and i wasn't aware of any
[51:04] other options anyway
[51:06] i just knew that i had i i had to leave
[51:09] the situation that i was in
[51:11] and this was the only thing that was
[51:12] offered to me
[51:16] some would argue that's not much of a
[51:17] step up but clearly for you it was a
[51:19] massive escape from
[51:24] and enormous freedom right like
[51:27] i'm really glad that i didn't buy into
[51:29] and get
[51:31] too involved with you know that
[51:34] lifestyle but rather remain on the
[51:37] periphery of it
[51:40] because the other part of me
[51:44] was not just about escape and
[51:48] rebellion and things like that but it
[51:50] was also about uh
[51:52] you know really wanting answers to
[51:55] things
[51:56] so you didn't want revenge on the world
[51:58] you wanted to figure things out
[52:01] i wanted to figure things out and
[52:04] so because i wasn't so totally committed
[52:07] there weren't the corresponding
[52:09] expectations
[52:11] of me and so i could drift in and out
[52:13] that's where
[52:14] i could spend all those hundreds i don't
[52:17] know
[52:17] maybe thousands of hours in the public
[52:20] library
[52:21] uh reading all kinds of things trying to
[52:24] find answers
[52:28] and so
[52:32] i was sort of i had not only separated
[52:34] myself
[52:36] from the situation that i'd grown up in
[52:38] i was trying
[52:39] i was actively trying to make sense of
[52:42] the world
[52:43] in a number of different ways i was
[52:45] really
[52:46] really interested in and trying to
[52:48] understand
[52:51] not just the segment of society that i
[52:54] found myself
[52:55] in
[52:58] but everything and everybody
[53:01] you know i different differing from
[53:05] my counterparts at the time
[53:10] i was interested in what it was like
[53:14] to be a policeman the kind
[53:17] that we were constantly encountering or
[53:20] running from
[53:20] or things like that you know i was
[53:23] interested
[53:24] in knowing really understanding
[53:28] who middle class people like my
[53:32] parents and and all of our neighbors and
[53:34] things like that
[53:36] who were they what were they about
[53:40] there really wasn't any aspect of the
[53:42] world that just i wasn't
[53:44] totally curious about you became a
[53:47] basically a teenage anthropologist
[53:49] i suppose i suppose in some ways
[53:53] because because of this
[53:57] need to know and understand
[54:00] there's also kind of a curiosity that
[54:02] i've always had
[54:04] about when i see something that i don't
[54:07] understand
[54:08] i really want to understand it or if i
[54:10] see an opportunity to learn something
[54:12] that
[54:12] i didn't even know existed as a
[54:14] possibility it's like
[54:16] you know like i really i'm drawn to that
[54:19] it's like
[54:20] okay i i want i want to know more about
[54:24] this
[54:28] so i guess
[54:32] at least the way that i think about it
[54:34] those were the two sides
[54:35] to myself in those years now
[54:38] right up to the point of uh
[54:41] i guess it was in the this spring prior
[54:45] to my 18th birthday
[54:47] that i made this really clear resolve
[54:50] that
[54:50] okay i have to get myself out of this
[54:52] situation
[54:53] so it doesn't because we've got about
[54:55] five minutes left
[54:57] let's leave it there because this sounds
[54:58] like a good place to to take a
[55:01] break and next time we will move on to
[55:03] the next
[55:04] the next phase the 18th from 18 onwards
[55:07] and uh
[55:08] i can't wait to to hear the next
[55:09] installment because it's been
[55:11] quite a tale so far um
[55:15] i i mean it's been quite quite um
[55:19] well i'm just very sorry that you you
[55:21] went through all those things but
[55:23] but clearly um what we see so much with
[55:28] nowadays is this term that's being
[55:29] thrown around a lot more post-traumatic
[55:31] growth
[55:32] and i see that you you know your story
[55:35] uh
[55:35] is heading in that direction it's
[55:38] wonderful so
[55:39] i'm not familiar with the term
[55:41] post-traumatic
[55:42] growth but it's very appropriate yeah
[55:45] yeah
[55:46] so um well okay so we're gonna leave it
[55:50] there and next time we'll pick up here
[55:52] and we can go straight into it
[55:54] um because uh we've done uh all the
[55:57] laying the groundwork i think well it's
[56:01] fascinating i just um
[56:04] just it's just so sad that you went
[56:06] through through all that
[56:07] because i mean i think this is why i
[56:09] don't work with children because i find
[56:11] it too difficult to work with children
[56:12] who have been
[56:13] traumatized and abused it just hurts my
[56:16] heart too much
[56:17] and well here's something you know you
[56:20] don't need to feel sad
[56:22] because i don't uh i mean there was a
[56:25] time
[56:25] when i did feel sad and angry about it
[56:28] but
[56:29] right now i my with the understanding
[56:33] i am grateful for that it made me
[56:37] who and what i am and i like
[56:41] who and what i am yeah
[56:45] i can absolutely relate when i look back
[56:47] on things in my life that have been very
[56:48] very difficult
[56:50] um i i almost go thank god for those
[56:53] things
[56:54] uh because i wouldn't be and i mean this
[56:56] fits in so well with the buddhist
[56:58] understanding of the universe right
[57:01] and cosmology and karma and all of that
[57:03] like you wouldn't be
[57:05] the person that you are now with the
[57:07] opportunities and the
[57:09] thinking that you have now if those
[57:11] things hadn't happened to you
[57:13] but certainly yep post traumatic growth
[57:16] is a real thing that
[57:17] i'm very interested in and people are
[57:19] talking about and is possible
[57:21] right trauma trauma can be a source of
[57:27] great uh grit and
[57:30] and great um fuel
[57:33] it can be fuel like just like i think
[57:37] we'll talk about that you know pain and
[57:39] suffering are the
[57:40] so often the fuel that that drive this
[57:43] desire
[57:44] this wholesome desire to to seek out the
[57:46] dharma and to meditate and all of that
[57:50] it's uh you know there's a couple of
[57:53] common cliches that come to mind that
[57:56] speaks to a really deep truth
[57:57] you know one of which is what is what
[57:59] doesn't destroy you only makes you
[58:01] stronger
[58:02] yeah yeah yeah yeah and
[58:06] i think that that that is yeah that's
[58:09] really been true
[58:10] in my life and that's that's how i see
[58:13] it
[58:14] now in trauma and pain there's all this
[58:15] potential
[58:17] for for great um
[58:20] strength and healing and it's all in
[58:23] there
[58:24] and it's kind of what you do with it
[58:25] right that's right
[58:27] and the other thing which is probably
[58:31] a much harder thing for most people to
[58:33] accept but it's easy for me because of
[58:35] my background is this idea that
[58:38] life never gives you more than you are
[58:40] capable
[58:41] of dealing with which isn't to say that
[58:44] sometimes
[58:46] far too often i guess people don't
[58:52] manage to deal with it yeah yeah
[58:55] and and through no necessarily no not
[58:58] necessarily through any fault of their
[58:59] own but they just don't know
[59:01] how and what to do right and
[59:04] yeah well thank you julius i think this
[59:07] is a great start um
[59:09] and let me just pause the stop the
[59:11] recording there