Transcript
[0:08] Hey there, my name is Klet Gunim and
[0:11] this is Rooted in Love, a podcast where
[0:13] we dive deep into conversations with
[0:16] spiritual and social justice servant
[0:17] leaders who are dedicated to cultivate a
[0:20] world truly rooted in love. Join us as
[0:23] we intertwine powerful insights and
[0:25] visionary ideas that inspire us to
[0:27] reimagine what it would look like to
[0:29] truly be in radical loving community
[0:32] together. Thank you for joining us to
[0:34] expand your mind and open your heart
[0:37] towards our collective liberation.
[0:39] This is Rooted in Love.
[0:48] Hello everyone and welcome to today's
[0:49] episode of Rooted in Love where we talk
[0:52] about the intersection of spirituality
[0:54] and social justice for our collective
[0:56] liberation. Today I'm here with a very
[0:58] special soul. It's Cell Hayward who I
[1:01] just was so inspired by when I first met
[1:03] just by her level of presence and her
[1:06] level of depth and grounding and really
[1:08] doing the work to do so much healing in
[1:10] the world that is so desperately needed.
[1:12] So so excited to go into depth and about
[1:14] your own journey and here to learn from
[1:17] you and learn with you on this path of
[1:20] being able to heal within ourselves and
[1:22] for the collective as well. So thank you
[1:25] so much for taking the time to talk
[1:28] today.
[1:29] >> Absolutely. It's a pleasure to be here
[1:31] with you.
[1:31] >> Thank you. It's so wonderful. So, I'd
[1:34] love to start our conversation off with
[1:36] the podcast title, which is called
[1:38] Rooted in Love, and being able to talk a
[1:42] little bit about what practice allows
[1:44] you to stay rooted in love, especially
[1:46] at a time where there's a lot of
[1:47] darkness and what seems to be an absence
[1:51] of love. For me, I often come back to
[1:54] what does love mean to me? You know,
[1:57] what does that what does that mean on a
[1:59] daily basis? And for me, I try to bring
[2:04] a non-judgmental awareness to the people
[2:06] who are around me, to the experiences
[2:08] that are happening around me, so that I
[2:09] can be really really present for them.
[2:12] And I see that kind of presence and that
[2:13] kind of attention as being love in
[2:15] action. That's beautiful. Yeah. Of like
[2:18] being able to be there for somebody
[2:20] fully. And before I we go in deeper, I
[2:23] know that you do lead meditations and
[2:25] yoga and wondering if there's any small
[2:27] practice that you'd be open to sharing
[2:28] with us and the viewers that are here to
[2:32] learn and to
[2:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I'd be happy to.
[2:36] I think um you know in any given moment
[2:39] when I notice that I'm feeling
[2:41] disconnected or um you know
[2:45] discombobulated or or just not present
[2:49] um a practice I often do is just to come
[2:51] back to my breath. So we can do that
[2:53] together.
[2:54] >> That sounds great.
[2:54] >> All right. So I'm going to put both of
[2:56] my feet on the floor. That's how I feel
[2:58] um most grounded and present. But I
[3:00] definitely invite um everyone to just
[3:03] make the body as comfortable as you can.
[3:06] Um, and some days the body is more
[3:08] comfortable than others. So, just being
[3:10] with whatever is here in this moment.
[3:13] If you'd like, if it's comfortable, you
[3:15] can allow the eyes to gently close.
[3:19] Or if you prefer, you can lower the eyes
[3:21] and soften the gaze
[3:26] and simply bring the awareness to the
[3:28] breath.
[3:33] The breath doesn't need to be changed or
[3:35] altered in any way.
[3:40] Just be aware.
[3:43] When are you breathing in?
[3:47] When are you breathing out?
[3:57] If it's helpful, I invite you to take a
[4:01] moment to notice where you feel the
[4:03] breath most distinctly.
[4:06] So, it may be in the rising and falling
[4:08] of the chest or of the abdomen.
[4:12] It may be the movement of the air in the
[4:15] nostrils slightly cooler on the inhale,
[4:19] slightly warmer on the exhale.
[4:27] Maybe it's the gentle sound of the
[4:29] breath.
[4:31] Wherever it is you're most aware of the
[4:33] breath, allow the attention to rest
[4:36] there
[4:39] for each inhalation
[4:41] and each exhalation.
[4:57] And taking a moment to
[5:01] perhaps set an intention to come back to
[5:04] the breath at different moments
[5:06] throughout the day.
[5:10] Just to simply notice
[5:13] I am here.
[5:16] This is the inb breath.
[5:20] This is the outreath.
[5:37] And I like to close my practice
[5:41] and each practice that I do
[5:44] with a silent wish.
[5:48] And we'll close this practice together
[5:50] in this way today.
[5:53] If you'd like, you can bring the palms
[5:55] of the hands together in front of the
[5:56] heart.
[5:59] And together we'll send out a silent
[6:01] wish that the entire universe and all
[6:06] beings everywhere
[6:08] know peace.
[6:10] Peace
[6:12] and only peace.
[6:21] And as you're ready, you can release the
[6:23] hands to the knees or to the lap and
[6:26] gently lift or open the eyes.
[6:37] >> Thank you.
[6:39] >> My pleasure. My pleasure.
[6:41] >> Oh, wow. I felt that wave of peace come
[6:44] over my body. Thank you so much.
[6:47] >> Absolutely.
[6:48] >> Very beautiful practice. Thank you.
[6:50] Absolutely. Yeah. And it's it's so
[6:53] supportive for me too to just simply
[6:55] come back to the breath
[6:56] >> to remember that I'm here. Right. Our
[6:58] mind so often wants to take us into the
[7:01] future, take us into the past
[7:04] >> and to just be present with what's here
[7:07] in this moment. This is where we begin,
[7:09] right? This is where we do the work.
[7:11] >> Wow. Wow. And it can be also so hard to
[7:14] do that sometimes because of the chaos
[7:16] of the world. You know, colonization has
[7:18] made us just go at full throttle speed
[7:21] all the time. There's actually another
[7:23] way of living and being. And so you
[7:26] giving the permission to do that, it's
[7:29] really inspiring. You know, I do believe
[7:31] that colonization, capitalism, all that
[7:33] is by design to keep us so busy, so
[7:36] worried, so distracted, you know. So we
[7:40] really have to be very intentional about
[7:42] bringing a practice into our own lives
[7:44] so that we continue coming back to this
[7:46] moment, coming back to the people in
[7:48] front of us and around us. How can we
[7:51] support? How can we be of service? And
[7:53] we can only do that if we're here, if
[7:55] we're present with that. Well, I'd love
[7:57] to backtrack.
[7:59] I'd love to go deeper into your own
[8:01] journey now if you're open to sharing a
[8:03] bit about your own path towards the
[8:06] space of healing, yoga, meditation. And
[8:09] I was reading a bit about your own
[8:11] background that you were in the legal
[8:13] space and that you were really into
[8:15] pursuing law and wondering what made you
[8:18] interested in that and then what caused
[8:20] that shift for you to go into the
[8:22] well-being space as well.
[8:25] >> Yeah. Yeah. I I practiced law for a lot
[8:28] of years. I was a lawyer for about 13
[8:30] years in San Francisco.
[8:32] >> Wow.
[8:32] >> Um very I loved the work that I was
[8:36] doing. Um I worked in a different a
[8:38] couple of different places, but I did
[8:40] work um supporting low-income
[8:42] communities of color in California um in
[8:45] regulatory spaces. I helped to prosecute
[8:48] unethical attorneys, particularly those
[8:51] who were targeting um limited English
[8:53] speakers.
[8:55] Um I was doing a lot of really great
[8:57] work, powerful work. Um and I was very
[8:59] very um proud of the work I was doing,
[9:03] the organizations I was working in and
[9:05] the people who I I was working with.
[9:08] And I reached a point in um that work
[9:12] where I really felt like there was
[9:15] something fundamentally that I wanted to
[9:18] challenge about the justice system. Um,
[9:21] and I was looking at how we're managing
[9:24] conflicts in ways that are very deeply
[9:27] disconnected
[9:28] and very much based on this paradigm
[9:32] where there is a victim and then there
[9:34] is a villain. And I just started seeing
[9:39] um that there was a different way,
[9:42] right? I believed that there was a way
[9:43] that we could still achieve what I
[9:47] thought were the goals of justice, which
[9:49] it was which is a functioning society
[9:52] where folks are cared for and when harm
[9:55] occurs, it's addressed in some way. But
[9:58] I really started to see that there were
[9:59] other ways that we could address the
[10:01] harm that weren't punitive, that weren't
[10:03] pushing people out of the circle or of
[10:06] the community, but actually bringing
[10:08] people back in, restoring
[10:11] um the harm that occurred, and then also
[10:13] looking at the conditions that existed
[10:15] in the first place that led to this
[10:17] person engaging in this activity that
[10:19] caused harm, right? Um and so that just
[10:23] I just took a big step back. I wanted to
[10:26] just get a bigger picture look at what
[10:29] justice meant to me, what um what
[10:33] community meant to me and how we hold
[10:35] harm when it occurs in community and
[10:38] what was my role going to be in that.
[10:41] Um so that was the entry point.
[10:44] >> That was the entry point. Um and then
[10:46] from there I really started looking at
[10:49] systems around restorative justice,
[10:51] transformative justice. uh I begin began
[10:54] studying non-violent communication
[10:57] and at the same time that this is all
[11:00] happening um you know I'm coming out of
[11:03] a high stress
[11:05] um uh career uh profession and I had
[11:11] taken yoga before um but then I really
[11:15] dove into my practice very very deeply
[11:18] and started understanding that there's
[11:20] this whole philosophy underlying it
[11:21] right it wasn't just these postur that
[11:23] made me feel great and relaxed and
[11:25] wonderful and open and you know I loved
[11:27] the practice but then understanding that
[11:29] there there are there's a whole
[11:31] philosophy underneath it that's actually
[11:33] guiding the practice which is why I
[11:35] would feel so great and present and open
[11:36] afterwards. Um, and so I just started
[11:39] kind of bringing everything together,
[11:42] um, all those parts together, just this
[11:44] idea of community and interdependence
[11:47] and how we care for ourselves and how we
[11:49] care for each other. Um, and that's how
[11:52] I and that's how I ended up here where I
[11:53] am today. Wow. It takes a lot of courage
[11:57] to like make that leap over to the
[11:59] other. It seems like the other side of
[12:01] what it should be, you know, intertwined
[12:03] for sure. And I'm wondering, are you
[12:05] still intertwining those two worlds or
[12:08] have you left the legal world behind?
[12:10] Where are you at now?
[12:11] >> No, it's it's very much still
[12:13] intertwined. I'm actually teaching a law
[12:16] school class right now, working with law
[12:18] students um specifically teaching tools
[12:21] around facilitation, which is how do
[12:23] groups work together to move a project,
[12:26] move a goal um forward together. And so
[12:30] much of that is about if you're the
[12:32] person guiding that group toward that
[12:35] destination. So much of that is about
[12:37] how do you hold conflict in a way that
[12:40] keeps the group together and not
[12:42] ruptured. How do you stay present when
[12:44] things arise with yourself so that you
[12:47] can be present for the group? What was
[12:48] that that spark or that catalyst to say,
[12:51] "Okay, I want to dive deeper into yoga."
[12:53] Was at that time in your life, was there
[12:55] something happening where you're like,
[12:56] "Okay, I need to make this shift." or
[12:58] was it just a curiosity intrigue?
[13:01] >> Yeah. No, there were a lot of shifts
[13:03] happening in my life and I, you know, I
[13:08] very much had a maybe an unconscious
[13:12] belief or not fully conscious belief
[13:14] that um, you know, if you're a good
[13:17] person, bad things won't happen to you.
[13:19] You know, like there was kind of this I
[13:21] mean, and it wasn't exactly that. It
[13:22] wasn't like I'd had this perfect life
[13:25] and no bad things had ever happened to
[13:26] me, but I just kind of felt like, you
[13:28] know, I'm a grown-up and I'm a lawyer
[13:31] and now I'm just going to keep doing all
[13:33] the right things and and and everything
[13:36] will work out. and life had different
[13:39] plans
[13:41] and you know so at this time that I'm
[13:44] shifting out of my profession all these
[13:46] other areas of my life my personal life
[13:48] you know my professional life of course
[13:50] um my the well-being of family members
[13:53] around me all these things started
[13:55] shifting and I just had so many just
[13:58] major losses that all just came all at
[14:02] once and I
[14:06] I didn't know what to do with. I didn't
[14:08] know what to do with that, you know. I
[14:10] just I felt so lost and so confused. And
[14:12] I started going to these yoga classes
[14:14] and I would feel better in the classes,
[14:16] which was great. And then I thought,
[14:18] well, let me see what this about this is
[14:20] about. And I started reading some books
[14:22] and I was like, "Okay, there's there's
[14:23] something here that um that is like in
[14:28] the midst of all this loss, there's
[14:30] something here within me that is steady
[14:34] and peaceful and quiet and how is that
[14:38] and why is that and what is that?" Um,
[14:41] so that really inspired a deeper a
[14:44] deeper look, a deeper dive. I feel like
[14:46] it's always having to go through that
[14:49] >> that rock bottom, that deepest suffering
[14:51] that it's like, okay, I need to
[14:53] surrender to something, some practice or
[14:55] something that will allow me to have an
[14:57] anchor point.
[14:58] >> And I'm wondering for you like on your
[14:59] own spiritual journey, did you grow up
[15:01] with any kind of faith and also I know I
[15:04] was reading that you also lived in the
[15:06] ashram for some time too and so also a
[15:08] very bold step to go into fully in that
[15:12] experience. And so yeah, maybe a bit
[15:13] about your faith and spiritual journey.
[15:15] I grew up in a Christian household. Um,
[15:19] my parents grew up with different in
[15:21] different Christian religions from each
[15:23] other. And so I always had the sense
[15:25] that they were very open-minded about,
[15:29] you know, religion. And you know, I I
[15:33] felt like what really was um important
[15:36] to them as I was growing up was that I
[15:41] for lack of a better word, just like be
[15:43] a good person. You know what I mean?
[15:45] There there weren't like really, you
[15:48] know, tenants that I needed to abide by,
[15:51] but just like, you know, be a good
[15:53] person in this world. Have a make a
[15:55] positive impact in this world. And um
[15:59] you know my parents were tremendous role
[16:01] models to me in that respect. Um you
[16:03] know very big-hearted generous people
[16:06] worked very very hard to give me um you
[16:10] know the opportunities that I was able
[16:12] to have. They both were they're both
[16:14] immigrants um immigrated to the United
[16:16] States you know and they I mean you I
[16:19] can't even imagine I can't even imagine
[16:22] truly just the courage you know to do
[16:25] that.
[16:26] I think about myself. They're both from
[16:29] Panama, Central America.
[16:30] >> Wow. Wow. Wow.
[16:32] >> Yeah. So, just the courage to just leave
[16:34] everything, you know, you know, come to
[16:36] a brand new country, you know, they did
[16:38] everything for me from just the support
[16:40] and the love, but also the modeling.
[16:43] Um, and so when I, you know, left home,
[16:48] I had that kind of foundation.
[16:50] Um, and I didn't have like a faith home,
[16:54] per se. you know, I didn't have a
[16:56] particular church um that, you know, I
[16:59] attended regularly, but I always stayed
[17:02] in, you know, I speak very regularly
[17:03] with my parents, and that's part of the
[17:06] conversation, just like what is what is
[17:08] your life looking like? What are you
[17:10] doing for the world? You know, what are
[17:13] you doing for your community? Um
[17:16] and so that, you know, that was always a
[17:18] part of my my upbringing and just the
[17:21] way I moved through the world.
[17:22] Absolutely.
[17:24] Um, and then I found yoga. I decided I'm
[17:27] going to just dive really deep into
[17:29] this. I loved the philosophy so much.
[17:32] Um, it made a lot of sense to me and I
[17:35] loved the perspective of this is a
[17:37] science, you know, yoga as science. So,
[17:39] you you do it, you experiment and it if
[17:42] it works, well, now you know. There's
[17:44] not like believe me, I'll tell you what
[17:46] to do. You know, it's like no, you
[17:48] practice and then you believe yourself.
[17:50] you know, you believe the experience
[17:51] that you have. You believe the impact
[17:53] you have on the world, on your
[17:54] relationships.
[17:56] Um, and I was really I was moved by that
[17:59] and the philosophy seemed very sound to
[18:02] me. Um, and so I decided to do the yoga
[18:06] teacher training and um, I think maybe
[18:10] halfway through the training, I was
[18:12] like, "This is this is it.
[18:15] This is it. This is it. The real deal.
[18:18] >> This is it." Yeah. And I moved in I
[18:20] think a month later or something. I
[18:22] moved into the ashram about a month
[18:24] later
[18:24] >> and just you know deep dive.
[18:27] >> That's so amazing. Which practice of
[18:30] yoga or which branch?
[18:31] >> Yeah.
[18:32] >> Called you.
[18:33] >> Yeah. I I got trained in the integral
[18:35] yoga tradition which is the um which is
[18:38] the ashram in which I lived and um you
[18:41] know it was definitely
[18:44] um
[18:46] living in an ashram is almost just like
[18:48] amplifies everything right like you
[18:50] think you're like moving into this like
[18:52] I'm going to just be at peace all the
[18:54] time and it just like amplifies like you
[18:57] hear your thoughts you become so attuned
[19:00] to to you know what's happening around
[19:02] you and
[19:03] you know, things touch you. So, you
[19:05] know, you're so sensitive. It was like
[19:06] you're kind of like this raw exposed
[19:08] nerve. Um, and so it was very, very
[19:12] powerful experience. You know, I can't I
[19:15] just there's nothing really like it. Um,
[19:18] and then I moved out. Um, I lived there
[19:21] for three years. I'm pretty sure I have
[19:24] to do I know. I think about that. I'm
[19:25] like, is that right? Yeah. I lived there
[19:27] for three years.
[19:29] >> How long ago was this also? That was 20
[19:32] I want to say oh my gosh like 2010 to
[19:37] 2013 I think that's exactly it. Yeah
[19:40] that's exactly it
[19:41] >> and um yeah and then since then you know
[19:45] there have been a lot of things that
[19:47] have come up at the integral yoga
[19:49] institute which is which was very
[19:50] painful for a lot of folks in the
[19:52] community. You know, it was um a lot of
[19:55] people came to learn that the teacher,
[19:57] the founder of integral yoga had had
[20:00] inappropriate relationships with his
[20:02] students, which is a story that we just
[20:05] keep hearing over and over again. And it
[20:09] really shook up the community a lot. Um
[20:13] and you know, we we we definitely
[20:15] practiced our yoga through it. Um but I
[20:18] you know the the harm of both what
[20:22] happened then also how some members of
[20:24] leadership managed that discovery for
[20:27] some and that disruption um has just had
[20:30] so many ripple effects. So it's been
[20:32] really hard to to see that.
[20:34] >> Yeah. I'm wondering because I feel like
[20:36] this is something that really happens in
[20:38] all spiritual paths and everything and
[20:40] people who go through religious trauma
[20:42] or have that experience that they're
[20:44] just like well this is all not obviously
[20:46] this is not real or it's not working
[20:48] because this person who's supposed to be
[20:49] the leader is not embodying these
[20:52] principles and so then they just
[20:54] completely shut it off and I'm wondering
[20:56] for you that you kept going on the path
[20:58] even with all of this and I guess what
[21:00] was your viewpoint on everything that
[21:03] was happening? Yeah, I mean for me it
[21:05] was always so clear from the moment I
[21:08] was introduced to yoga that these
[21:10] teachings are timeless and that the
[21:13] teacher is the teacher and thank you for
[21:15] being the vessel to provide me with the
[21:17] teachings but it's not about the teacher
[21:20] and so I myself as a teacher
[21:23] do my best to impart that to my students
[21:25] as well like I am just I'm just the
[21:27] delivery person. I'm just the messenger,
[21:30] you know, like it's not me, you know,
[21:32] and so um I just have always been able
[21:35] to so deeply connect with the teachings
[21:37] that a teacher not no longer being my
[21:41] teacher certainly there's pain and loss
[21:42] there, but that does not change that the
[21:45] teachings um are are the true teacher.
[21:48] Wow. Yeah, that's a much more like Yeah.
[21:51] profound and zoomed out way to look at
[21:52] it that it's like okay, yeah, you don't
[21:54] have to see it for the person. It's for
[21:56] the actual philosophy that's coming
[21:58] through.
[21:59] >> It's very powerful.
[22:00] >> And it's so interesting because I've
[22:01] never talked about my history growing up
[22:05] with religion. But I mean, I think
[22:07] that's just like a very clear throughine
[22:09] like it's not this dogma. It's not this
[22:11] person, right? It's like what is true
[22:14] for you um that allows you to be
[22:17] present, be openhearted, be connecting,
[22:20] be supportive, serve where you can. And
[22:23] you know all these principles are so
[22:25] timeless and I just I never had that
[22:28] firmly tied to any one thing. So for me
[22:32] it was like yoga was like another I mean
[22:34] I'm realizing that in this moment as
[22:36] I've never thought about this wow.
[22:38] >> Oh wonderful.
[22:39] >> So I mean that maybe made it easier for
[22:42] me.
[22:43] >> Okay. I'm also wondering like your idea
[22:46] of higher power source like where if
[22:48] you're open to sharing like what is your
[22:49] own belief of if there is a creator god
[22:53] I feel like I have different answer
[23:00] oh my goodness but at this point what
[23:03] most calls me
[23:05] >> is this idea that there is life and life
[23:09] and each one of us is just an expression
[23:12] of that life of the same life,
[23:15] >> right? And if I can honor that life
[23:17] energy and if I can see everything and
[23:20] anyone as that life energy, that divine
[23:23] energy, that creator energy, the name I
[23:26] think the name can get um tricky, right?
[23:29] Putting a name on it, I think can I know
[23:31] for me anyway, it really hung me up for
[23:34] a very long time um because I learned
[23:36] certain things that were associated with
[23:38] certain names and I'm like, I don't like
[23:40] that. So now I don't like that word,
[23:43] right? But if I can just get all the way
[23:46] down to that place where I genuinely
[23:48] believe we're all connected and and
[23:51] honor that and see the divinity in that,
[23:54] that's what supports me. That's the
[23:56] foundation.
[23:57] >> It's beautiful.
[23:57] >> You know what I'm doing.
[23:59] >> I'm wondering like do you believe that
[24:02] there is a being? Like do you think it's
[24:04] a being or like an energy or Yeah. Yeah,
[24:06] I guess like in your own faith path like
[24:09] can you have a relationship with that
[24:11] life energy or is it
[24:13] >> it's just the thing that connects your
[24:14] solid force field?
[24:15] >> No, I love that. I mean, one thing that
[24:17] I did take about yoga, take away from
[24:19] yoga that I absolutely adore is that
[24:22] because we're all expressions of this
[24:24] beautiful life energy, we can select
[24:27] anything to represent that for us, you
[24:30] know? So, it can be a person, right? Or
[24:33] it can be a being, it can be a flower,
[24:38] it can be nature, it can be love, it
[24:41] can, you know, like we have the
[24:43] opportunity to kind of tap into that
[24:45] energy
[24:47] >> anywhere.
[24:47] >> Wow.
[24:48] >> You know, so
[24:50] >> that's beautiful. Yeah. Cuz it's like I
[24:52] mean if we do say God then they say like
[24:53] God is everything. So like okay then
[24:56] then everything is God,
[24:58] >> right? If God is everything then
[24:59] everything is God.
[25:00] >> Right. Right. Right. Wow. Very
[25:02] beautiful. Thank you so much for going
[25:04] deeper in that. Very beautiful. Um,
[25:07] >> okay. I'd love to pivot a little bit now
[25:10] into the social justice space and
[25:14] talking a bit about, you know, how your
[25:16] own spiritual journey, how it has
[25:18] impacted how you show up in the world in
[25:21] that, you know, service ending
[25:23] oppression.
[25:24] >> How do they go together or not? You
[25:26] know, I've always been an activist and
[25:28] and you know, I like to say, you know, I
[25:30] used to be out there shouting and the
[25:31] protest. I still am. You know, I think
[25:34] that there's a a place for that and I
[25:36] think that there's a message that we're
[25:38] sending um when we do that, right? When
[25:40] we have our voices heard. Um so, the
[25:44] throughine is very consistent for me. I
[25:46] feel like I do believe it's important to
[25:48] speak out um when witnessing injustice.
[25:52] um what I like to what my practice is to
[25:54] come back again and again to the
[25:56] humanity of that person on the other
[25:58] side. And that does not mean that um I
[26:02] excuse the behavior or that I'm you know
[26:04] that I um what what troubles me the most
[26:09] that I see sometimes in spiritual
[26:11] communities is this idea that um so if
[26:15] if if everything is divine um why do
[26:18] anything right? Why? Why do anything at
[26:21] all? Why why help? Why stop? Why do I
[26:24] even say why would it even cross my mind
[26:27] that that thing is wrong,
[26:28] >> right? If everything is perfect and
[26:30] everything is divine.
[26:32] And so for me, you know, everyone's on
[26:35] their own journey on this, of course. Um
[26:37] but for me what I really see is um this
[26:42] idea that like the vision I have for the
[26:45] world is that we all witness that
[26:47] divinity in all of us. Right? That is
[26:50] that is the vision,
[26:52] >> right? And so if I see someone harming
[26:54] another person, I can recognize that
[26:58] they are a person. They are divine, but
[27:00] they're not recognizing the divinity in
[27:02] other people. They are creating a harm.
[27:05] And so to for me to not intercede, for
[27:09] me to not do anything at all is actually
[27:12] perpetuating that harm, right? Where I
[27:14] can, of course, right? I can't I'm
[27:16] seeing harm every day all the time on
[27:18] the news, right? And I can't do
[27:20] everything every day, but where I can
[27:22] >> um
[27:24] to not intercede is perpetuating that
[27:26] harm,
[27:27] >> right? And so I think it's really
[27:28] important um to take action,
[27:32] >> right? To take action when we see harm
[27:34] happening. um to support to protect you
[27:37] know I'm a big believer in um protective
[27:40] use of force you know like I don't you
[27:43] know I'm not going to try to force
[27:44] people to do something I'm not going to
[27:46] you know um you know use my power to
[27:48] force people to act a certain way or do
[27:50] a certain thing um but if I can protect
[27:54] if I can use my force to protect I will
[27:57] um I think that that's where there's
[27:59] that's where the distinction lies right
[28:00] if I'm using force to power to coersse
[28:03] to manipulate um to to create fear. I
[28:07] don't see the benefit to that. That's
[28:08] creating more harm.
[28:10] >> Um but using to protect using force to
[28:12] protect um I think is really valuable
[28:15] and it supports this vision
[28:17] >> of um a place where people's divinity is
[28:20] honored. I think a lot of people are in
[28:22] so much rage and so much anger
[28:25] rightfully so for uh the the harm of the
[28:30] divine nature of people and like just
[28:33] very very hard and so something that I
[28:35] am struggling with and I'm wondering
[28:37] what if you may think about this too is
[28:40] around
[28:41] reactionary
[28:43] anger and coming reactionary protection
[28:45] of harm and that versus intentionally
[28:48] responding
[28:49] And
[28:51] yeah, I guess like in the idea of
[28:53] justice through fighting back through
[28:57] nonviolence versus violence and where
[28:59] you are and where you stand on that. I
[29:01] think that um when we come to a problem
[29:04] of violence with violence or with
[29:06] aggression, we're just bringing more
[29:07] violence and aggression into the world.
[29:10] Um and so when I even talk about
[29:12] protective use of force, I'm talking
[29:13] about the minimum amount of force that I
[29:15] need to stop the harm, right? So, um, a
[29:19] a very classic example that I often talk
[29:21] about in my class is if you're a child
[29:23] with a child and the child runs into the
[29:25] street, right? Like I like a a
[29:27] relationship with with all beings,
[29:29] including children, that's power with,
[29:31] not power over. So, I'm not going to
[29:33] make a child do something. But if I see
[29:35] a child's going to run into the street,
[29:36] I will make them stop. I will physically
[29:38] hold them, right? Not to punish, right?
[29:42] But to protect. And so, I'm going to
[29:43] just do the bare minimum I need to do. I
[29:45] don't need to shout at them. I don't
[29:46] need to or maybe they're too far to
[29:48] grab, I do shout. Whatever the minimum I
[29:50] need to protect, I'll bring that.
[29:52] >> Um, and so I do believe in nonviolent
[29:55] movements and the protective use of
[29:56] force in a way that is absolutely the
[29:58] minimum needed to stop the harm that's
[30:00] happening.
[30:01] >> I guess it's the next followup is when
[30:05] somebody is at that level of rage, the
[30:08] injustice just like in our face.
[30:10] >> Yeah.
[30:11] When somebody is has that level of
[30:13] heightened emotion,
[30:16] how can they come from a place of okay,
[30:19] how can I do bare minimum
[30:21] >> when their when their nervous system is
[30:22] so shot and disregulated and
[30:26] >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're kind
[30:28] there are two things I want to say. I do
[30:30] think that these practices right for
[30:33] presencing ourselves I think that they
[30:35] give us a little bit more capacity which
[30:38] I think is beautiful to have a nervous
[30:39] system has a little more capacity a
[30:41] little more resilience and there are
[30:43] some things that our nervous system is
[30:45] not going to
[30:47] normalize to right and I don't think
[30:49] should right and so I think it's so
[30:51] important to have these practices so
[30:53] that we can come back we can recognize
[30:55] where when we're in that space
[30:57] >> and come back to ourselves so that we
[30:59] can be more intentional, right? And come
[31:03] from a higher like cognitive function.
[31:05] Like I talk about this a lot that our co
[31:07] cognitive function or higher cognitive
[31:09] function shuts off, you know, and so we
[31:13] are going to make the best difference
[31:14] when we can connect back into that or
[31:16] the the you know the wisest choices and
[31:18] I think probably the best choices for
[31:21] whatever our goal is when we could tap
[31:23] into that. So having a regular practice
[31:25] is so important. And then kind of to
[31:28] zoom back, the second part of what I
[31:30] wanted to say to zoom back, a lot of
[31:32] what we're seeing now isn't individual
[31:34] harm, but systemic harm, you know, and
[31:37] so that's a whole that's a whole
[31:39] different thing. That is not just like
[31:41] me putting my body between someone who's
[31:43] harming another or me grabbing a child
[31:44] from running into a street. That's about
[31:46] changing systems around us that are
[31:48] harming people. Um, and that takes
[31:51] collective action. You no one of us can
[31:54] do that alone. M what does that
[31:56] collective action look like for you or
[31:58] what you feel would be most beneficial
[32:00] for that shift in system?
[32:03] >> I mean I think for me when I'm in that
[32:06] state of just like overwhelm I come back
[32:09] to community like my immediate community
[32:12] how can I get support in my community?
[32:14] How can I bring support into my
[32:16] community? How can we build more
[32:18] resilient communities together? Right?
[32:20] Like immediate, right? like my home, my
[32:23] neighbor, my neighborhood, my city, you
[32:26] know, that's where I come back to when I
[32:28] feel like, oh my gosh, what can I
[32:30] dismantle ice by myself, you know what I
[32:33] mean? Like,
[32:34] so that is where I channel my energies.
[32:37] Like I come back to healing communities.
[32:39] What do my neighbors need? What do the
[32:41] people in my community need? What
[32:43] communities are being targeted in my
[32:44] city? What do they need? Right? Um, so
[32:48] to me that helps me so much because I
[32:51] feel like I can make such a bigger
[32:53] impact. And then I absolutely love what
[32:56] people are doing across the country. I
[32:57] think it's so important to people for
[32:59] people to find organizations that they
[33:01] trust that they can support, people who
[33:05] they can follow, who can, you know,
[33:07] filter the news so that they're
[33:09] receiving what's most important to them
[33:10] and what they feel most empowered to
[33:12] take action toward.
[33:14] um and and and take care of themselves,
[33:17] right? And those are ways we can take
[33:18] care of ourselves and stay in action. I
[33:20] think that's so important.
[33:22] >> You know, something I hear a lot from
[33:24] people is like especially in the
[33:25] organizing space or activism space is
[33:27] that there's not enough time to like
[33:29] these practices of healing wellness like
[33:32] there's just so much that is needed to
[33:34] be done on the ground that this is not
[33:36] the priority. Mhm.
[33:38] >> And wondering if you have anything you
[33:40] would say to those people that are
[33:43] really focusing on the direct action
[33:44] work versus this more subtle
[33:47] >> Right. Right.
[33:49] >> work.
[33:49] >> Yeah. I love that. I mean, it's it's I
[33:52] don't mean to be flip with this quote,
[33:54] but it's a quote that I love that um
[33:56] that makes me kind of chuckle and makes
[33:58] me think. Um but there was a teacher, I
[34:01] wish I could remember the name of the
[34:02] teacher who said, "You should meditate
[34:04] for 30 minutes every day." And if you
[34:08] don't have time to meditate for 30
[34:10] minutes, you should meditate for an
[34:11] hour,
[34:15] right?
[34:18] >> So, I know I love that quote. I love
[34:20] that quote. Right? And so, like that's
[34:23] how foundational this work is, right? We
[34:26] need to be able to come back to
[34:28] ourselves where we can't do that great
[34:30] work out into the world.
[34:33] >> Yeah.
[34:33] >> Yeah. I mean, I guess if it's okay for
[34:35] me to share a reflection that I feel
[34:36] like you embody that peace, you know,
[34:39] and it's like, how is there going to be
[34:41] peace in the world if we haven't
[34:42] embodied it within ourselves? And that
[34:44] like, yeah, just being around you is
[34:46] already healing, you know, and that like
[34:48] it's because you've done the work that
[34:50] you have the regular practices that
[34:52] allow you to show up in that way that uh
[34:55] yeah, you it's it's almost impossible to
[34:57] harm at that point once you're no longer
[34:59] harming
[35:00] >> within yourself.
[35:02] >> So, thank you Thank you for being that
[35:05] reflection in the world.
[35:06] >> Oh, thank you.
[35:08] >> Yeah.
[35:10] >> My next question is about integrity. M
[35:14] m.
[35:16] And I think a lot of people really do
[35:19] want to do the things of meditating and
[35:21] having these practices, yoga, self-care,
[35:24] and yet life takes over, other
[35:27] priorities take over, and then they
[35:30] begin to lose the integrity within
[35:31] themselves of not doing the things that
[35:32] they said they were going to do for
[35:34] themselves.
[35:35] >> Yeah.
[35:35] >> And I'm wondering if you have any
[35:37] suggestions around that of like having
[35:39] inner integrity
[35:41] when we need it most. Yeah. Yeah. That's
[35:44] so beautiful. Um I think about, you
[35:47] know, if I'm thinking about creating a
[35:50] more peaceful interior or more peaceful
[35:52] world, whatever it may be, if I am
[35:55] violent to myself about missing my
[35:57] practice, right, that is violence, too,
[36:00] you know? So, how can I hold myself with
[36:04] self-compassion? And I I mean, I kind of
[36:07] want to expand this much bigger, but
[36:08] let's start with this. Like, how do I
[36:10] hold myself with compassion, right? like
[36:12] I missed my practice and then I missed
[36:14] my practice again and then I missed my
[36:15] practice again and then I missed my
[36:16] practice, right? Like how can I hold
[36:18] myself with compassion and then just
[36:20] remember I can always begin again. I can
[36:23] always begin again. And for me, like to
[36:26] kind of to to zoom that out on a bigger
[36:28] level, you know, I think about kind of
[36:31] cancel culture that I think is uh you
[36:34] know, it's it's very similar to what I'm
[36:36] talking about the divisive kind of sense
[36:37] of justice, like the pushing out, like
[36:40] how can we bring that person who's made
[36:43] this mistake into the fold? How can we
[36:45] show them compassion? How can we help
[36:47] heal any harm that's been created or
[36:50] caused by their actions? and how can we
[36:51] look at the system that existed to
[36:54] create um to you know have them choose
[36:57] the choices they made right so it's like
[36:59] almost like do I don't want to
[37:00] internally cancel myself either
[37:02] >> wow
[37:03] >> right
[37:05] >> how can people do that like how what
[37:07] kind of practice would allow them to no
[37:09] longer have that self-sabotage
[37:12] >> yeah I mean that is that is my lifetime
[37:14] work for sure but I do have an
[37:16] intentional self-compassion practice a
[37:18] self-mpathy practice where I check in
[37:20] with myself, you know, how am I feeling
[37:23] in this moment? What am I needing? You
[37:25] know, if I've done something that um I'm
[37:27] really disappointed, right, that maybe
[37:29] did cause harm, right? Like what was it
[37:32] in me that led to that action, right?
[37:36] What was that about? And can I hold that
[37:37] part of myself with compassion and go,
[37:40] look, I know you were doing the best.
[37:41] Like first start with that you were
[37:43] doing the best you knew how in the
[37:44] moment and it hurts now. You look at the
[37:46] impact and it hurts.
[37:48] >> Wow. you know, and give that part of me
[37:50] some space
[37:51] >> and then kind of the higher mind can
[37:53] lock in and go, okay, you got the care
[37:55] you needed. Now it's time for me to step
[37:57] in and fix this harm and maybe set up
[38:00] systems so I don't do this again,
[38:02] >> right?
[38:03] >> But if I can give that part of myself
[38:04] that empathy and what it does need,
[38:06] right? If I'm lashing out at somebody,
[38:08] there's there's some part of me that's
[38:10] hurt, right? So like, how can I take
[38:11] care of that part of me without hurting
[38:14] other people? and then how do I repair
[38:16] what's happened and set up systems so I
[38:18] don't do it again.
[38:19] >> Wow. I'm wondering this is also showing
[38:21] up because you're a mom too like with
[38:23] your child that now that you're doing
[38:24] that for your own you know inner child
[38:26] like selfcompassion like I'm sure that's
[38:29] another huge opportunity test to do that
[38:33] work.
[38:34] >> Yes. I joke not joke that my child is my
[38:36] guru. Oh my goodness. All the teachings
[38:40] all the all the buttons like okay how
[38:42] about this button? I'm like, "Okay,
[38:44] that's a new button. Didn't know I had
[38:46] that button."
[38:47] >> Wow. Trigger point, guys.
[38:50] >> Yes.
[38:51] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's all learning. All
[38:53] learning. I mean, I also see it as just
[38:55] a tremendous honor to, you know,
[38:57] shepherd this person through life. So,
[39:00] um, yeah, staying tapped into that
[39:02] honor, staying tapped into this is a
[39:04] different person. I think that's what's
[39:07] hardest with children actually, like
[39:09] this is not another part of you.
[39:11] >> Wow. you know, or like not an extension
[39:13] of you in some way. Of course, it is,
[39:15] but it's also an a unique human being on
[39:18] their own journey um that I would love
[39:21] to just like wrap and bubble wrap for
[39:23] the rest of his life and never be hurt.
[39:25] But, you know, there are going to be
[39:27] things that he does that he needs to
[39:28] learn that will trigger me that will
[39:30] all, you know, all the things.
[39:32] >> Um, and how can I just make space make
[39:35] space for all of that? From a very early
[39:38] age,
[39:39] my child and I think most children have
[39:42] like this need for autonomy that floats
[39:44] up very early. You know, they talk about
[39:46] the twos and the threes and how
[39:47] challenging that could be. That's just
[39:49] them expressing their autonomy. And as
[39:51] they get older, that need continues and
[39:54] they just get bigger and it they have
[39:56] more words to express it and they have
[39:58] more ideas of how to, you know, work
[40:01] with you so that they can have that need
[40:02] met, you know. So, it's a lot of um I
[40:06] mean that's just such a big part of it
[40:07] is like how do I honor his need for
[40:08] autonomy and also do what I think I need
[40:12] to do as a parent to prepare him to to
[40:15] go out into the world in a way that I
[40:17] hope keeps him, you know, safe and
[40:19] healthy and happy and also contributes
[40:21] to the larger community and world that
[40:22] he's stepping into. Yeah. I feel like if
[40:25] there's nothing else that I taught
[40:27] parents, it would be just the power of
[40:29] repair,
[40:31] >> you know,
[40:32] >> because not only does that help you and
[40:34] help your child and help that
[40:35] relationship, but it also models to the
[40:37] child how to treat themselves,
[40:39] >> how to treat other people, how to move
[40:42] through the world, just the power of
[40:43] repair. God,
[40:44] >> it's always a possibility.
[40:46] >> I'd love to zoom it out now to like
[40:48] community work and the services that you
[40:50] offer in the community and the tuned
[40:51] living.
[40:52] >> Uh, is it that's It's a tune living,
[40:54] right? Yes. Attune living and that
[40:56] creation of a new entity for those in
[40:59] Yeah. what you're doing in
[41:01] >> Yeah. I mean, one of my one of the
[41:04] things I very much love to do and it's
[41:06] how we initially connected was working
[41:08] at the Healing Well, and I know you have
[41:11] another episode with the uh executive
[41:13] director Kathy Curran of the Healing
[41:15] Well, and they're doing such amazing
[41:17] work. Um, so that's just a big part of
[41:20] the work that I love to do, supporting
[41:21] that community. Um that's in San
[41:23] Francisco, also in the Bay Area. I'm in
[41:25] the East Bay, however. Um and then
[41:27] Attuned Living, yeah, that's my own
[41:28] business. Um I'm working with folks
[41:31] one-on-one. And I'm also on Insight
[41:34] Timer um which is a big piece of what
[41:36] I'm doing as well and offering live
[41:38] events and meditations. I hope to start
[41:40] teaching um physical yoga practices on
[41:43] there as well um just so I can reach
[41:46] more people, you know, reach more
[41:48] people. So that's what I'm looking at
[41:50] right now. And it's just been beautiful.
[41:52] >> Wow. So exciting. And what do you feel
[41:54] like is like your ultimate vision or
[41:56] like what you would want to bring to the
[41:58] world? What's your
[41:59] >> I guess sole purpose dharma in you.
[42:02] >> Yeah, definitely still working that out.
[42:06] >> Yes.
[42:07] >> And I think being a parent really shifts
[42:11] >> all the perspectives, you know. Um, but
[42:14] for me, I would love to bring a
[42:17] different um, vision for what justice
[42:20] can look like and what our justice
[42:21] systems can look like. Um, I think when
[42:24] I think about that, I mostly think in
[42:26] this country. Um, and you know, for me,
[42:30] I think it's going to take more than
[42:32] just kind of stepping in and making
[42:36] solutions on the surface. I think it's
[42:38] going to be something that needs to go a
[42:39] lot deeper and look more systemically.
[42:41] It's a big thing. I don't know if it's
[42:43] going to happen in my lifetime, but for
[42:45] me, that is something that um feels so
[42:48] important to me. And I just feel so like
[42:50] every part of me kind of lights up. Like
[42:52] the lawyer part of me, the you know,
[42:54] compassion, communication, the yoga. I
[42:57] feel like it's all um it's it's all
[42:59] pointing to that.
[43:00] >> Wow. Wow. Wow. Yes. You're on the path.
[43:04] You're always on the path.
[43:06] >> Beautiful. Wow. Thank you so much for
[43:08] sharing. Is there anything else that you
[43:09] feel like is important to share with
[43:11] people and their own healing journey or
[43:14] yeah whatever other takeaways you want
[43:16] folks to have.
[43:17] >> Wow. I mean I think and it and this is
[43:20] and we talked about it from the
[43:22] meditation all the way to the end about
[43:23] repair that we can always begin again
[43:26] >> you know begin again. I think if if that
[43:29] if there was any one thing I would want
[43:30] to leave folks with is you can always
[43:32] you can always begin again. Begin again.
[43:35] >> Thank you so much.
[43:36] >> Yeah. And thank you And so make sure how
[43:39] can people follow your work? How can
[43:41] >> Yeah, they can join in.
[43:42] >> Yeah, absolutely. They can find me at
[43:43] attunedliving.com. That's my website.
[43:45] And also I'm on um Insight Timer as
[43:48] Etsel Hayward. So they can find me there
[43:49] as well.
[43:50] >> Fantastic. Thank you so much. It was
[43:53] really such a beautiful conversation.
[43:54] Thank you. Thank you. And thank you
[43:56] everyone for listening. And yeah, we'll
[43:58] be sure to put everything in the show
[43:59] notes of all the links so people can be
[44:01] in touch and stay contacted. Yeah. Thank
[44:04] you so much.
[44:14] Thank you for tuning in to this episode
[44:16] of Rooted in Love featuring itself
[44:18] Hayward, a true embodiment of peace who
[44:20] is rippling healing support to so many
[44:22] through the power of yoga and
[44:23] meditation. If you'd like to learn more
[44:25] about Etsel's offerings in the
[44:27] community, you can find a list of useful
[44:29] links in the show notes. Please feel
[44:30] free to share this episode with a
[44:32] friend, subscribe, and leave a rating.
[44:34] Follow along for future episodes on
[44:36] Instagram at Coco Sanctuary, which is
[44:38] also in the show notes. Until next time,
[44:40] please be sure to take intentional
[44:42] moments of pause to be able to stay
[44:44] rooted in love within yourselves and for
[44:46] the community around you.