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Inspiration

Why Your Brain Turns YourPartner Into an Enemy

Modern Wisdom
Modern Wisdom
Sep 5, 2026
読了 約12分

Most couples drift into relationships on a current of desire and emotion, believing that love will carry them through. Then, somewhere along the way—often without warning—the person they chose feels like a stranger. Or worse, an adversary. The argument over who forgot to lock the door escalates into something that feels existential. A missed text triggers a cascade of resentment. The partner who once felt safe suddenly registers as a threat. This transformation baffles people. What changed? The answer lies not in the heart but in the brain: specifically, in how survival systems rooted in infancy can hijack adult romantic attachment without either person understanding why.

Dr. Stan Tatkin, a psychologist and couples therapist who specializes in attachment neurobiology, approaches relationships not as a matter of feeling but as a matter of design. His core insight is radical in its simplicity: love is not enough. Relationships are not saved by passion or good intentions. They are saved by structure, agreement, and a deliberate hacking of the neuroendocrine system—the biological machinery that determines whether two people remain collaborative or slip into threat.

読む · 11セクション

Why Romantic Relationships Are Neurochemically Harder Than Any Other Bond

The first shock Tatkin delivers is that romantic attachment relationships are not just emotionally intense; they are neurochemically distinct from every other relationship on Earth. This is not poetry. It is biology.

The reason is rooted in memory and survival. When two adults enter into a primary romantic partnership, the brain does not file it under "special friendship" or "important alliance." Instead, it registers it as most similar to the earliest attachment relationship—the one with caregivers in infancy. That primal bond was literally about survival. Food, comfort, protection, and existence itself depended on it. The attachment system is, as Tatkin puts it, "the I can't quit you biology."

Because the romantic relationship mirrors that ancient survival imperative, it carries a long memory. A partner is not simply a partner; they become a proxy for every important figure from your past. This is not conscious. It happens automatically. When your partner raises their voice, your nervous system may not hear your partner. It hears your parent. When they withdraw, you do not experience withdrawal—you experience abandonment echoing from childhood. The same memory that makes breaking up so devastatingly difficult (because it resurrects the terror of early dependency) also makes conflict escalate faster and wound deeper in romantic relationships than in any friendship or professional partnership.

The chances of accumulating threat memory in a romantic relationship are, Tatkin notes, close to 100 percent if couples do not actively work to minimize threat and maintain a collaborative stance under stress. This is not pessimism. It is prediction based on how the brain works.

Is Love Alone Enough to Maintain a Relationship?

Tatkin's answer is blunt: "Absolutely not."

The reasoning is unsparing. Feelings come and go. Love is a feeling. Therefore, feelings cannot be the foundation of long-term partnership. Beyond that, people's definitions of love are often different from what they actually do when they express love. Expectations shift. Emotions are unreliable. Over decades, relying on emotion is like building a life on a roller coaster.

Instead, Tatkin argues that lasting relationships must be built on what he calls "earned love"—love that is generated daily through knowledge of how to work with the brain's systems, how to design the relationship to protect and enhance feelings, and how to maintain a collaborative attitude under pressure. This is work. It requires what he calls "a certain amount of planning, predicting, and preparing."

The foundation is not passion but purpose. Couples need a shared reason for being together that is independent of emotion. This is not romantic. It is essential. That purpose might be practical (building a family, creating a life of mutual growth, serving something larger than yourselves) or philosophical (committing to seeing each other through all seasons, from health to illness, youth to age). But it must exist. Without shared purpose, the relationship will eventually lose its moorings when emotion fluctuates—and emotion always fluctuates.

How Professional Fields Protect Themselves—And Why Couples Don't

Here is where Tatkin identifies what may be the most consequential failure in how couples approach their own survival as a team: they do not plan for what could go wrong.

Medicine does post-mortems so the patient is not killed again. Police, military, science, and business all predict and prepare for worst-case scenarios. They design systems and protocols. They make agreements. They establish governance. They assume, as Tatkin says, that "devils we are if the opportunity arises. If we're under enough load bearing, if we're in enough pain or enough pressure or enough stress."

Couples do none of this. They fall in love, move in together, and improvise. They have no terms and conditions. They have no social contract. They have no system of agreements about what is good for both, what is right for both, or what serves the purpose they say they share. And then, when conflict arises—as it always does—they repeat the same patterns, walk into the same traps, and wonder why they end up in the same fights.

The result is predictable: relationships either do not last, or one or both people never feel safe or secure. Tatkin is clear: without governance, without explicit agreements, without a designed system that protects both partners from their own reactivity, the relationship becomes "the wild west." And the wild west, by definition, is not a place where two people can thrive together.

The Role of Memory and Threat in Reshaping Perception

One of the most unsettling discoveries Tatkin shares is how memory alters present-moment perception in real time. This is not about grudge-holding or rumination. It is about how the brain literally rewrites what you see and how you interpret it.

When your executive areas of the brain (the thinking, rational parts) are offline—which happens under stress, threat, or high emotion—your limbic system (the ancient survival system) takes over. In that state, your proximity to your partner, their facial expression, their tone of voice, all of it is scanned for threat. But that scan is not neutral. It is colored by every previous wound, every unresolved rupture, every time you felt betrayed or unsafe with this person.

So when your partner says something neutral, like "We need to talk," your nervous system does not hear those words in the present. It hears all the times before when "We need to talk" led to pain. Your visual field narrows. Your interpretation of their facial expression shifts. What might have been a simple statement becomes loaded with menace. And because you respond as if the threat is real, your partner experiences your response as an attack. They become defensive. The cycle spins faster.

Tatkin emphasizes that this is not anyone's fault. It is how the brain works. The question is whether couples can become aware of it—aware that their present perception is being shaped by memory—and whether they can develop the skills to catch that hijacking before it runs the show.

Why Rupture Repair Must Happen Quickly

The conventional wisdom says sleep on it. Let emotions cool. Give it time. Tatkin pushes back. If you can repair the rupture quickly—within hours, not days—the threat memory does not harden into the nervous system. If you wait, the nervous system learns: this rupture, this wounding, is part of the permanent threat landscape of this relationship. Do it enough times and the nervous system stops believing the relationship is safe. One or both partners begin operating from a baseline of threat and vigilance. Resentment accumulates not because of any single incident but because the nervous system has learned that safety with this person is provisional.

Quick repair is not about pretending the conflict did not happen or avoiding necessary conversations. It is about reconnecting enough, quickly enough, that the nervous system can stand down from threat. Once the threat response is active, rational problem-solving becomes nearly impossible. The prefrontal cortex is offline. You are in a survival state. So the smartest move is to restore enough safety—through proximity, reassurance, and acknowledgment of the rupture—so that the couple can actually talk about what happened from a place where both brains are online.

The Agreements That Matter

Tatkin identifies that couples need to make explicit agreements, but the specific content matters less than the fact of making them. The agreements function as a social contract—a set of terms that both people have consciously chosen and that both understand. These agreements might cover how conflict is managed, how distance is handled, how repairs happen, what lies outside the bounds of acceptable behavior, and what the shared vision actually is.

The point is not to create a rigid rulebook but to establish what Tatkin calls "governance"—a system that keeps both people accountable and protected. When agreements exist and are revisited and honored, they serve a neurobiological function: they tell the nervous system that this relationship is safe because it is predictable. Predictability is one of the most powerful signals the nervous system can receive.

The Distance Problem and the Repair Window

Physical distance—whether partners work long hours apart, travel, or live in separate spaces—compounds the rupture-and-repair challenge. When couples are far apart, the window to repair quickly narrows. A rupture that happens over text, email, or phone call cannot be resolved with the re-establishment of safe proximity, which is one of the most powerful tools the nervous system has to downregulate threat.

Tatkin points out that distance changes the entire temporal calculus. What could be repaired in an hour if both people are in the same room may take days to repair if they are apart. And by then, the threat memory has begun to consolidate. Over time, couples who manage distance poorly find that ruptures leave deeper marks. This is not a failing of the relationship. It is a neurobiological reality that requires its own agreements and strategies.

How to Distinguish Between Conflict and Incompatibility

Couples often assume that conflict means incompatibility—that if they fight about something, they are fundamentally mismatched. Tatkin separates these. Conflict is normal. It is the friction that arises between any two beings trying to coordinate lives. Incompatibility is different: it means that core values, life goals, or personality traits are so misaligned that no amount of good repair can create a sustainable partnership.

The question is whether a couple can repair. If they can—if they can move from rupture back to safety and collaboration—then they can likely navigate almost any conflict. If they cannot repair, then even small conflicts become relationship-threatening because the nervous system learns that safety is not possible. Over time, resentment does not come from any one issue. It comes from the felt experience that repairs do not work, that wounds do not heal, and that this person cannot be trusted to restore safety when things go wrong.

The Biology of Pair-Bonding and Why Breaking Up Hurts So Much

Tatkin names what he calls the "I can't quit you" biology—the neurochemical attachment system that evolved to keep partners together for the sake of survival and reproduction. This is not love in the poetic sense. It is a system as powerful as hunger or thirst. It is why breaking up activates the same pain centers as physical injury. It is why people stay in relationships they know are not good for them. And it is why, when a relationship ends, the loss feels existential.

Understanding this biology does not make the pain go away, but it does contextualize it. The pain is not evidence that you made a mistake or chose wrong. It is evidence that your attachment system did exactly what it evolved to do: bind you to another person at the deepest level. The fact that you can't quit someone you love—even when love is no longer enough—is not a flaw in you. It is the feature the attachment system was designed with.

The Principles Behind Secure Relationships

At the end of the conversation, Tatkin outlines the top principles behind relationships that remain secure and collaborative over time:

  • Design over drift: Relationships must be intentionally designed, not simply allowed to evolve. This design includes shared purpose, vision for the future, and explicit agreements about how to handle rupture and repair.
  • Plan for the devils, not the angels: Assume both partners will struggle, make mistakes, and act out of self-interest under pressure. Build safeguards accordingly.
  • Respect the neurobiology: Understand that the survival system is always on. Learn to minimize threat and maintain collaboration under stress.
  • Repair quickly: When rupture happens, repair it within hours if possible. The goal is to restore enough safety that both nervous systems can stand down from threat.
  • Make agreements and keep them: Agreements are not constraints. They are the foundation of predictability and safety. They tell the nervous system that this relationship can be trusted.
  • Accept that love is not enough: Feelings will fluctuate. Passion will wane. Purpose, design, and skill are what carry the relationship through the seasons.

Where to Go From Here

If you recognize yourself and your partner in Tatkin's description of couples who repeat the same patterns, the invitation is to begin with awareness. Notice when memory is coloring your present perception. Watch for the moment when your partner's neutral words trigger a threat response. And rather than blame yourself or your partner for the reaction, understand it as a sign that the nervous system needs safety restored.

Begin a conversation about shared purpose. What are you building together? Why does this partnership matter? Beyond that, start small with agreements. How will you handle conflict? How quickly will you aim to repair? What is off-limits? What matters most? These conversations are not romantic, but they are the most practical expressions of love you can offer—love that is earned, daily, through the design and skill to keep each other safe.

Transcript

[0:00] Hello friends, I'm bringing a brand new

[0:02] live show across the UK and Ireland this

[0:04] October. It's stories, psychology,

[0:06] audience Q&A's, and whatever happens

[0:08] when thousands of overthinkers

[0:10] voluntarily leave the house and end up

[0:11] in the same room together. I'd love to

[0:12] see you there. The last tour completely

[0:14] sold out, so make sure that you snag

[0:16] tickets now using the link in the

[0:18] description or heading to

[0:19] chriswilliamson.live. Dublin's already

[0:21] sold out, loads of venues are limited.

[0:23] Tickets are very limited, so get yours

[0:25] now. Chriswilliamson.live.

[0:27] You're great. Your work is fantastic.

[0:29] You rule.

[0:30] >> Thank you.

[0:31] Thank you.

[0:32] >> Uh if I was to

[0:34] if I was to try and summarize

[0:37] your worldview on relationships, allow

[0:39] me to step into your skin and wear it

[0:41] for a second. I would summarize it as

[0:44] love by design, not desire.

[0:47] Is that a fair like it's thought, not

[0:50] felt as relationships? That design

[0:52] versus desire thing, how far away am I?

[0:54] >> I I think um I I prefer earned love.

[0:58] Earned love on a daily basis by by

[1:01] knowing how to hack the brain, uh the

[1:03] neuroendocrine system, which we can talk

[1:05] about.

[1:06] By uh by

[1:08] you know, uh

[1:10] designing the relationship uh to protect

[1:13] feelings, uh to enhance feelings, to

[1:16] uh to um uh allow two different people

[1:20] under stress to maintain a collaborative

[1:23] and cooperative attitude.

[1:26] Uh that is a hard get um because that

[1:29] that takes a certain amount of planning,

[1:31] predicting, and planning, and preparing.

[1:33] Uh what what could go wrong between

[1:35] human beings?

[1:37] >> Why are romantic attachment

[1:39] relationships neurochemically

[1:42] so hard to navigate?

[1:44] >> Well, they're hard because in the

[1:46] attachment world, if you uh if you

[1:50] understand or buy the idea of a primary

[1:53] attachment relationship. A primary

[1:55] attachment relationship is one that is

[1:57] is tends to be dyadic

[1:59] with human primates. We pair bond in

[2:02] herds.

[2:03] And the romantic adult primary

[2:06] attachment relationship

[2:08] is most like the earliest one.

[2:11] Which is predicated on survival.

[2:14] So

[2:15] the attachment system is actually an

[2:16] existential

[2:18] you know glue that holds us together.

[2:20] It's the I can't quit you biology. We

[2:23] confuse it for love.

[2:25] And because it goes back to the earliest

[2:29] you know survival relationship

[2:32] that's why breaking up also is hard to

[2:34] do. That's why it has a very long memory

[2:37] cuz it reminds us of that earliest

[2:39] dependency relationship whereas other

[2:42] relationships tend to not do that.

[2:44] >> So we're reliving our childhoods in a

[2:46] way.

[2:47] >> We're we're reliving our relationships

[2:51] how we felt with all these important

[2:54] originals that we were around in this

[2:58] relationship that we call a romantic

[3:01] adult relationship. But it is 12 and

[3:04] before. That is generally how I will

[3:07] think of it is that we have the parents

[3:10] in our heads that we had

[3:12] around 12 and and before that time even

[3:15] if our parents and they do changed a

[3:18] great deal for the better

[3:20] or for the worse

[3:22] we still draw upon the that earliest

[3:25] uh you know because that's the root of

[3:27] our experience through thousands upon

[3:29] thousands of interactions starting from

[3:31] infancy. Most of the people

[3:34] So powerful.

[3:36] >> Is love enough to maintain a

[3:38] relationship?

[3:39] >> Absolutely not.

[3:41] >> [laughter]

[3:46] >> No feeling is

[3:48] cuz feelings come and go and besides who

[3:51] knows what your definition of love is?

[3:54] It may be very different than mine.

[3:56] And even if I were to describe my

[3:58] definition of love in action, my

[4:01] expectations of love may be quite

[4:03] different than what I say.

[4:05] So, there you already have a problem.

[4:08] But, if you're basing your life on

[4:10] emotion, which is like a roller coaster,

[4:13] then your life is like a roller coaster.

[4:15] So, I I think the smartest and the

[4:19] wisest and the way that it's always

[4:21] worked in terms of long-term

[4:23] relationships between individuals of

[4:25] equal power, adults,

[4:27] uh

[4:28] is that uh you have to have first a

[4:31] shared purpose, a reason for being in

[4:34] this relationship, not based on

[4:36] feelings.

[4:37] And a vision of where are we headed?

[4:39] What's the end point? Are we ride or

[4:41] die? Is it all the way till, you know,

[4:43] I'm wiping your butt?

[4:45] Uh you're wiping my butt in old age? Uh

[4:48] you know, what where are we headed? Um

[4:50] and why?

[4:52] What's the point of us? Who or what do

[4:53] we serve?

[4:55] Only purpose that's based on a selfish

[4:58] reason will carry the day because we're

[5:01] too

[5:02] uh unreliable as a species. Um our

[5:06] species is uh

[5:08] notably historically

[5:10] moody and fickle and impulsive and uh

[5:14] unpredictable, sometimes opportunistic,

[5:17] warlike, uh xenophobic, um easily

[5:21] influenced by groups and other people.

[5:23] So, we're we're not great over the long

[5:26] run

[5:27] uh in unions.

[5:29] Therefore, we have to a a account for

[5:32] going through time together, and that

[5:35] would be going through some changes. So,

[5:36] we need an invention, we need a design

[5:40] from the ground up, which is a made-up

[5:42] thing, right? All relationships are made

[5:44] up.

[5:45] That would sustain us in the long run

[5:47] and would account for all of that wiggle

[5:50] room necessary as we change through

[5:52] time, right? Otherwise,

[5:55] uh we're going to you know, we're not

[5:58] going to make it somehow. Um

[6:00] that's issue one. Uh issue two is we

[6:03] have to understand the forces that push

[6:05] us around, namely our survival instinct.

[6:08] Because it's always on and because this

[6:11] relationship is unlike any other on the

[6:15] planet because of its memory, uh most

[6:17] like that earliest one,

[6:19] based on survival. Uh uh it has a long

[6:23] memory and we tend to be proxies for

[6:25] everybody who came before, right? We

[6:27] tend to it's a very projective system.

[6:30] The chances of us accruing threat memory

[6:34] by getting things wrong based on memory

[6:37] and appraisal

[6:38] is 100%.

[6:40] And so if we're not really good at

[6:43] knowing and understanding how to

[6:45] minimize threat and stay collaborative

[6:48] under most stress and pressure,

[6:51] we're going to accrue threat memory,

[6:53] which is a biological matter and

[6:55] eventually takes people down.

[6:58] >> So you're saying we need to respect the

[7:01] biology

[7:02] >> Oh yeah.

[7:02] >> by in advance

[7:04] having structures in place

[7:08] uh and principles that keep guardrails

[7:11] in so that we're not relying on the

[7:14] uh

[7:14] abs and flows of how we feel.

[7:17] >> Like any other any other union of any

[7:20] kind that's professional of any kind, we

[7:24] plan on our devils, not our angels,

[7:26] right? Couples plan on their angels. And

[7:28] that's a big mistake cuz

[7:30] >> What does that mean?

[7:31] >> Um devils we are if the opportunity

[7:33] arises. If we're under enough load

[7:35] bearing, if we're in enough pain or

[7:37] enough pressure, enough stress.

[7:39] Again, emotions. Uh you know, if I'm

[7:41] going to behave according to how I feel,

[7:43] which is pretty much everybody on the

[7:45] planet most likely,

[7:47] then I It stands to reason that we're

[7:50] going to have a hard time getting along,

[7:53] right?

[7:54] And so

[7:56] this this just has to do with predicting

[7:58] what could go wrong and planning for it

[8:00] ahead of time instead of

[8:02] just falling into it, which is what

[8:04] couples always do, right?

[8:06] >> Yeah.

[8:07] >> Couples don't predict, plan, and prepare

[8:08] for what could go wrong based on what

[8:10] has gone wrong.

[8:12] Nobody else does that. Medicine, we do

[8:14] post-mortems, right? We Let's not kill

[8:17] the patient again.

[8:18] Uh and but couples don't do that. They

[8:20] just repeat, repeat.

[8:22] Uh we predict what could go wrong in the

[8:25] police force, in military, in medicine,

[8:28] in science, in business.

[8:31] Couples don't do that. They just walk

[8:32] into the same situations live without

[8:35] being prepared. Uh

[8:37] we would never involve uh get involved

[8:40] with a group of people if we didn't know

[8:42] what the culture was and how are we

[8:44] going to be protected from each other

[8:46] cuz we're animals.

[8:48] Couples don't have any any governance,

[8:51] any way of protecting each other from

[8:52] each other cuz they don't set it up.

[8:55] So couples are the only system, the only

[8:58] voluntary system of free, fair, you

[9:01] know, voluntary system

[9:02] uh of individuals coming together um of

[9:06] equal power and authority, at least on

[9:08] the face of it.

[9:10] It should be on based on terms and

[9:12] conditions that do not have any of this

[9:15] ever.

[9:16] And uh and that is why they're predicted

[9:19] not to last very long or if they do, one

[9:23] or both people are not going to be happy

[9:25] or not going to feel safe and secure.

[9:28] Because there's no social contract uh

[9:31] system of making agreements

[9:34] uh based on purpose, based on what is

[9:36] good

[9:38] so say you both we both right what is

[9:40] best so say we both or what you know is

[9:44] right those are the three

[9:46] and without that it's going to be the

[9:49] wild west

[9:51] >> Does that mean that discussing

[9:52] non-negotiables and practical things in

[9:55] advance and as early as possible is

[9:56] actually the romantic thing to do?

[9:58] >> It's not well I think you don't put that

[10:00] into the hey honey let's go out to

[10:02] dinner and have a nice romantic dinner

[10:04] and everything and let's talk about if

[10:06] we have any deal breakers

[10:08] you could I guess it's not you know it's

[10:12] dual purpose but

[10:14] deal breaker is

[10:16] should be known ahead of time

[10:18] I want a baby

[10:20] I have to have a baby

[10:22] you hate kids

[10:24] and let's get married so that is what

[10:27] people do

[10:28] and that's like not smart because that

[10:30] can't work I want monogamy and you want

[10:33] polyamory well neither of us are wrong

[10:35] we have a right to want what we want and

[10:37] get what we want but we can't do

[10:39] business together because that's going

[10:40] to cause a lot of trouble

[10:42] so those are deal breakers

[10:45] big ticket items that couldn't work

[10:47] because we're pointing in two different

[10:48] directions

[10:49] >> Having a specific shared purpose and

[10:53] vision is still important outside of

[10:55] deal breakers I have to imagine

[10:58] >> So if you look if you look at the human

[10:59] condition and and how people have

[11:01] sustained in groups uh

[11:05] groups don't stay together very long or

[11:08] they don't get along with each other

[11:10] very well if they don't have a shared

[11:12] purpose for being together you and I are

[11:14] going to start a band that's our purpose

[11:16] we want to start a band we want to

[11:19] what what is our goal our vision we want

[11:22] to get a record deal at least initial

[11:25] so if we didn't have that we wouldn't

[11:27] have reason to hang together very much

[11:29] and we would probably not get along

[11:32] because we tend to pick at each other if

[11:33] we don't have a shared purpose.

[11:35] Right? Uh that's if we're, you know,

[11:38] spending a lot of time together.

[11:40] And a shared reason for doing this.

[11:42] Otherwise, we tend to otherize. We tend

[11:44] to pick at each other's differences.

[11:46] We don't uh we don't look naturally to

[11:49] where we agree and where we are the

[11:51] same.

[11:52] People who are consensus makers have to

[11:54] do that. But at the average Joe, because

[11:57] of energy conservation, meaning

[12:01] uh you know, we're meant to do the least

[12:03] amount necessary biologically, all

[12:05] living things,

[12:06] um we're lazy and we won't do things

[12:10] that we should do cuz we don't think we

[12:12] have to.

[12:13] So,

[12:14] uh uh this whole idea of you know, we're

[12:18] in it to win it, uh you know, we're a

[12:20] survival team, uh we want to win, we

[12:23] want to make money, we want to succeed,

[12:25] want to survive,

[12:26] uh um all of these things are essential

[12:29] for keeping things on keeping people on

[12:32] the path together and and not paying

[12:34] attention so much to their differences.

[12:37] Otherwise, we fight. And when it happens

[12:40] in a country such as ours, that's when

[12:43] we see civil war or tribalization or

[12:46] massive amount of splintering, right?

[12:48] Cuz there's no more centralized sense of

[12:51] purpose that holds us together that's

[12:53] believable and uh and a vision, American

[12:56] dream, right?

[12:58] And so, if things break down.

[13:01] Uh

[13:01] so, if that is true with all systems

[13:03] large and small, it goes to follow that

[13:05] a couple would be no different. If they

[13:07] have no shared reason for being

[13:10] at any given time, they're going to

[13:11] fight uh or they'll drift.

[13:14] Because that's what actually holds us

[13:15] together, yeah.

[13:16] >> What's the importance of agreements?

[13:19] >> Uh

[13:20] that's all we've got to keep us from uh

[13:22] being harmful to each other. All we have

[13:24] is our pacts, our agreements, our social

[13:27] contracts.

[13:28] Civilizations predicated on social

[13:30] contracts. The first laws of religion,

[13:35] even though it was a social contract

[13:37] with God, an Old Testament God that

[13:40] would rain in your bedroom 40 days, 40

[13:41] nights if you disobeyed, you know, that

[13:44] was a powerful thing to get people to

[13:45] start to behave. The first way of

[13:48] getting people to stop harming each

[13:50] other

[13:52] with the 10 Commandments, right? So,

[13:54] everything is predicated on agreements.

[13:56] Otherwise, we we go to war. We do harm.

[14:01] You know, we're

[14:02] like I said, we're selfish,

[14:03] self-centered,

[14:05] opportunistic animals. If we can get

[14:08] away with something, we will. That's

[14:10] that's in our DNA.

[14:12] Only norms and laws and principles and

[14:15] rules keep us from doing that and allows

[14:18] us to stay together in safety and

[14:21] harmony. Otherwise, we wouldn't. No

[14:24] difference with a couple. So, they have

[14:26] to come up with this as well.

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[14:34] >> Back in my day, I had to walk 10 miles

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[14:37] >> Aren't you younger than me?

[14:38] >> Yeah, but my dad got a DUI.

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[15:23] Why do we make the fundamental agreement

[15:25] to prioritize each other above

[15:27] everything else at all times?

[15:29] >> You don't have to. You could agree that

[15:31] ourselves come first. Then you'd have to

[15:34] describe that to each other, define

[15:36] that. What does that really mean? Same

[15:38] with a relationship. What does it mean

[15:39] in practical purposes? If this happens,

[15:42] what would we do? If that happens, what

[15:44] would we do?

[15:45] Are there any exceptions to this? What

[15:47] could go wrong with this idea of putting

[15:49] ourselves first? Uh what happens if if

[15:53] this relationship crashes and burns?

[15:56] Um we put ourselves first. What does

[15:58] that uh do for our kids? What does that

[16:01] do for our own health? So does it make

[16:03] sense?

[16:04] Well, maybe we put religion first.

[16:06] That's fine. But you'd have to think it

[16:09] through because you're planning your

[16:11] life

[16:12] because your lives depend on this. How

[16:14] you're going to rule, how you're going

[16:16] to govern, what decisions you're going

[16:18] to make is going to be predicated on

[16:20] what is the highest priority, right?

[16:23] Otherwise, you're not a team.

[16:25] It'll be chaos when load-bearing hits.

[16:27] You're going to, you know, be

[16:28] unprepared.

[16:30] So

[16:31] uh it's all practical, it's all

[16:33] tactical. It it's not about emotion,

[16:36] it's about what would be the best thing

[16:38] and what

[16:40] what one thing must be protected at all

[16:42] costs in order for everything else to

[16:45] thrive. That's how to think of it,

[16:47] right?

[16:47] >> Mhm.

[16:48] >> But it has to be defined, has to be done

[16:50] judiciously because again it's no small

[16:52] thing. Your happiness, safety, and

[16:54] security, everything's predicated on

[16:56] your design.

[16:57] >> What's the threat response based on

[16:59] memory?

[17:00] >> Well, memory is is is a problem. We're

[17:03] memory animals. Everything we do is by

[17:07] memory. Most of our day is memory run.

[17:10] It's automatic. We're not thinking.

[17:12] We're not using energy-expending areas

[17:14] of the brain that use critical thinking.

[17:17] We save that for novelty. We save that

[17:19] for our work. Save that for other

[17:21] things.

[17:22] But so we're just walking through the

[17:24] day doing things automatically

[17:26] reflexively based on memory.

[17:29] The um because of our survival instinct

[17:32] uh

[17:33] negative memory negative experiences

[17:36] favored

[17:38] uh in memory because of we have to

[17:40] remember where we're hurt because of

[17:42] danger. So survival is at the top of our

[17:46] subcortical drive.

[17:48] Right? And it does not uh it does not

[17:51] equivocate. It does not differentiate.

[17:54] Uh you hurt me if you didn't fix it

[17:56] right away and you do it again then I'm

[18:00] going to predict you're going to do it

[18:01] again and again and again which you will

[18:03] feel attacked by.

[18:05] But that is me protecting myself. Uh I'm

[18:08] using pattern recognition to sweep the

[18:10] environment for cues.

[18:12] And every time you you repeat something

[18:15] or we repeat something that's

[18:16] threatening

[18:17] the array of threat cues that I'm

[18:20] looking for increase.

[18:22] Naturally makes sense. It doesn't know

[18:24] the difference between you holding a gun

[18:26] on me and you uh you looking askance uh

[18:30] that I view as a judgment as an attack

[18:32] as a criticism. Right?

[18:35] And so this becomes problematic if we're

[18:37] not careful

[18:39] which is why there are ways to uh to

[18:42] prevent this from taking hold because it

[18:45] does have a snowball effect.

[18:47] >> It does It sounds like it sounds like it

[18:48] sensitizes your system over time.

[18:50] >> Yeah. Has to because we have to survive.

[18:53] Uh this part of our brain is lightning

[18:56] fast. It I see it I shoot it.

[18:59] And that makes sense if you if you're if

[19:01] your life depends on on making a a quick

[19:05] decision and an an an action that

[19:07] protects you uh from a danger it makes

[19:11] sense that this can be a problem

[19:13] relationships.

[19:15] Because

[19:16] I will react very quickly based on my

[19:19] own narrative history memory

[19:21] and I will likely be wrong and you will

[19:23] likely feel

[19:25] threatened by my assuming.

[19:28] Which you will then protect yourself and

[19:30] behave in a way that's threatening in

[19:32] return and therein lies problem with the

[19:35] human condition. Why we're better at

[19:37] war.

[19:39] >> [gasps]

[19:40] >> We're we're just not great at

[19:42] relationships over the long run.

[19:44] So there are ways to remedy this if you

[19:47] know what you're up against. One is

[19:49] quick repair.

[19:51] Quick repair is a way to keep memory

[19:54] from going into long-term memory where

[19:56] it's the gift that keeps on giving.

[19:58] And sadly most people don't fix things

[20:01] quickly. They don't fix things. I'm

[20:03] sorry you're right that was stupid. I

[20:05] shouldn't have done that. I'm sorry. I

[20:08] love you. And then move on, right? Um

[20:10] they delay it. They don't do it. They

[20:14] they apologize in in the wrong way.

[20:17] Uh

[20:18] and and so the beat goes on and this is

[20:20] why families lose their kids.

[20:23] Estrangement. That's why people get

[20:24] sued. That's why in the old days people

[20:27] you know, challenge each other to a duel

[20:29] to the death. You know, because um we

[20:32] remember harm done. We don't forget it.

[20:36] Person who harms us does.

[20:38] But because of the adrenaline that's

[20:40] created created when we feel

[20:42] misunderstood, hurt, judged,

[20:46] something's unfair, unjust.

[20:48] Uh that that creates a lot of juice to

[20:51] go into long-term memory unless you fix

[20:54] it right away which case it doesn't.

[20:58] So that's one of the main reasons to

[21:01] grow up and do what we invented. Uh the

[21:05] reason we invented apologies uh, amends,

[21:08] was to hold on to our relationships.

[21:11] And if you two want to hold on to your

[21:12] relationship with your kid or your your

[21:15] spouse or your parents, then you got to

[21:17] learn how to fall on your sword

[21:20] and only apologize

[21:23] um, without equivocation, without

[21:25] qualification, explanation, uh, without

[21:28] any any other qualifier, if you know

[21:30] what's good for you. Is that in the real

[21:32] world is the only thing that'll relax

[21:34] another person. Yeah, the only thing.

[21:37] And I have to apologize for what you

[21:38] think I did, not what I think I did.

[21:42] >> Mhm.

[21:42] >> Think how hard that is for us cuz we're

[21:44] so prideful. We think that we're always

[21:47] right.

[21:48] And that's not true, by the way.

[21:51] We're hardly ever right by much.

[21:54] And, um, but, you know, it's our

[21:56] arrogance. It's our, you know, hubris to

[21:59] think that our communication was

[22:00] spot-on. I heard you clearly. Um, uh, my

[22:04] memory is great. Uh, my perception is is

[22:07] correct. Yours isn't. And none of this I

[22:10] can prove. None of this is true at any

[22:12] given time. It's all false. And yet,

[22:15] we'll die on that hill unless we're

[22:17] dumb.

[22:18] >> It's so fascinating that

[22:21] intense negative experiences, if

[22:24] repaired quickly,

[22:26] have

[22:28] basically a completely different future

[22:30] ahead of them than ones that are left to

[22:32] fester. That if you're in a relationship

[22:34] which has regular rupture without

[22:35] repair, and especially without repair

[22:37] quickly,

[22:39] that makes it's painful in the moment

[22:43] and

[22:44] more painful in the future and

[22:47] sensitizes your system to detecting this

[22:51] happening again, even perhaps when it's

[22:53] not, which means that your world view is

[22:56] going to appear increasingly deranged to

[22:59] the other person who needs to apologize

[23:01] based on your interpretation, not on

[23:04] their projection.

[23:06] >> Right.

[23:07] >> It's vicious. It's a It's a really badly

[23:09] designed system.

[23:11] >> Well, it's it's not designed, like I

[23:13] said, for Remember, we used to die at at

[23:15] 15 or 30 tops, right? We didn't live

[23:18] that long. We would pair bond for 4

[23:20] years and then leave and then, you know,

[23:23] mix up the gene pool. That, you know,

[23:25] that satisfied the, you know, the

[23:27] natural the ways of natural laws and and

[23:29] that nature's

[23:31] uh right? Nature didn't plan on us,

[23:33] you know, doing what we do today.

[23:36] We're on our own.

[23:37] Uh that's why we have to invent our

[23:40] meaning. We did We're not born into a

[23:42] world with meaning, right? Clearly.

[23:45] We're not born into a world where we get

[23:47] why we're here and how we got here and

[23:49] where we're going.

[23:51] That's the whole existential dilemma,

[23:53] right? It's the angst. You know, we're

[23:54] going to die, we're alone, uh we don't

[23:57] know uh why we're here, um uh and life

[24:01] has no meaning,

[24:03] right? Uh that's very depressing. So, we

[24:05] create meaning,

[24:07] right? Same thing. But meaning also

[24:09] involves governance.

[24:11] How are we going to protect each other

[24:12] from each other? That is not in by

[24:15] nature, right? We We are predators.

[24:18] We're apex predators as as a matter of

[24:21] fact.

[24:22] Um we're nice on a when we're happy,

[24:24] right? Yeah. But you may not want to be

[24:26] around us if we're unhappy. We're kind

[24:28] of nasty. Unless unless

[24:31] there are norms, you know? Sweetheart,

[24:33] you know, my 14-year-old daughter,

[24:36] uh

[24:36] you can be angry. You cannot walk around

[24:38] and destroy the atmosphere here for

[24:40] everybody who's in the house. That's a

[24:42] community issue. You can't do it.

[24:44] So, stop it.

[24:46] Right? Um only that stops that kind of

[24:48] behavior. Um no, you can't do this. I

[24:52] know you want to do it, but I'll show

[24:53] you you can't. Try.

[24:55] And I will show you you can't. And that

[24:58] uh gives rise to an idea that there are

[25:01] limits, there are boundaries, there are

[25:03] things you can and cannot do. But let's

[25:04] say I don't do that. Let's say I give

[25:06] in,

[25:07] then you can get away with anything.

[25:10] Right? Cuz there is no God. I did that.

[25:13] It doesn't happen naturally. Um you

[25:15] know, Lord of the Flies, you know, we're

[25:17] animals. And the off the the uh the

[25:21] product line, you know, uh

[25:23] human primate

[25:25] isn't great.

[25:27] >> [snorts]

[25:28] [laughter]

[25:28] >> You know, uh you know, civilization uh

[25:32] you know, uh

[25:33] over so many years of uh of you know,

[25:37] building complexity socially,

[25:39] emotionally, and and and um ideals and

[25:43] values and and uh and and morals,

[25:48] principles. That That, you know, in in

[25:51] the whole span of history, of course,

[25:53] it's a blip, but in our time, it's a

[25:56] long period

[25:58] to get here, and we're still a mess.

[26:00] Um and so, you know, again, don't be

[26:04] naive.

[26:06] You are responsible for this

[26:08] relationship. No one else is. You're the

[26:10] only ones who are going to benefit and

[26:13] are also going to suffer if you're not

[26:16] an an alliance, right? If you're not

[26:19] working together, you can't work. If

[26:22] you're not able to work together as a

[26:24] two-person system of we and us

[26:27] interdependently having the same things

[26:29] to gain and lose,

[26:31] are you going to survive this life,

[26:33] really?

[26:34] Uh with all the slings and arrows and

[26:36] all the the things that happen and and

[26:39] the indifference of others, which, you

[26:41] know, just test that out. When the chips

[26:43] are down, people will be indifferent to

[26:45] your concerns.

[26:47] Um

[26:48] and that's just the way it is.

[26:51] Uh and so, not knowing that and

[26:54] preparing is just simply not being aware

[26:57] and not being an adult and and in

[27:00] reality.

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[28:07] >> I've heard you say that if you leave

[28:09] those memories to encode in long-term

[28:11] for too long, you can end up seeing your

[28:13] partner more as a predator than a lover.

[28:15] >> Yeah, the subcortical brain does not

[28:18] differentiate.

[28:19] >> What's what's happening What's happening

[28:20] neurochemically in and in

[28:22] the brain?

[28:23] >> Well, the

[28:25] there's an intentional center uh um

[28:28] uh the salience network in the brain is

[28:31] what causes me to to look, right? You

[28:34] know, I hear a sound and I look. That's

[28:35] a salience network that's directing me

[28:37] to what's most important at this moment.

[28:40] And there are other networks that are

[28:41] involved here that are fear-related

[28:44] um and threat-related that are involved

[28:47] in this one network.

[28:49] And so, I I begin to hone in on your

[28:52] face because you repeatedly do something

[28:54] that reminds me of something that makes

[28:56] me feel small

[28:59] and devalue, okay? You may not intend to

[29:02] do that, but your intentions aren't the

[29:03] matter here.

[29:05] Um I'm picking up a threat memory a cue

[29:08] from your face because I'm vigilant. Um

[29:12] I've I now have to look for this because

[29:15] I've been hurt too much.

[29:17] >> [clears throat]

[29:17] >> You feel attacked by it, but I'm simply

[29:20] taking care of myself. I don't control

[29:22] this. It is pushing me around.

[29:25] It's because I don't understand it,

[29:26] right? I assume that everything I'm

[29:29] picking up is correct. I don't check.

[29:31] You know, are you are you are you doing

[29:33] that thing right now?

[29:35] >> [clears throat]

[29:36] >> Right? I just I just shoot first uh

[29:38] assuming you are doing it. And that's

[29:40] because these areas don't have an

[29:42] executive function.

[29:44] They're not meant to have an executive

[29:46] function. An executive function takes

[29:49] time and resources.

[29:51] That is why that that, you know, when

[29:54] we're relaxed, we have all oars in the

[29:56] water, we can think, we can error

[30:00] correct, we can we can think in a

[30:03] relativistic way and not in a in in a uh

[30:07] dominant end way, right? I am certain.

[30:10] No, maybe you're right.

[30:11] But I'm relaxed. I can do that. As soon

[30:13] as I blood pressure and heart rate go to

[30:15] a certain level, my brain changes. I

[30:18] literally don't have a capacity to do

[30:21] that because the executive areas

[30:25] uh demand a lot of resources to run,

[30:28] oxygen, glucose, and blood.

[30:31] That is now going to my striated muscles

[30:33] because I'm starting to get into fight

[30:35] or flight. I'm getting hyper-aroused.

[30:38] And there's a brain change. I'm altered.

[30:40] I no longer care about your interests.

[30:44] And it takes very little uh this is uh

[30:47] Robert Sapolsky's uh work not just very

[30:50] little uh glucocorticoids coursing

[30:53] through my veins for me not to give a

[30:55] damn about you.

[30:57] And you lose me as an audience if you're

[30:59] not careful.

[31:00] Um you don't even think it cuz you

[31:02] haven't noticed you've lost me as an

[31:04] audience.

[31:05] Uh I feel unsafe therefore talk to the

[31:07] hand. I care only about my interests and

[31:10] you get nothing.

[31:11] That's how sensitive the system is cuz

[31:13] I've determined I'm not safe

[31:15] on a subcortical level.

[31:17] Now, I may not know this but you will if

[31:21] you pay attention.

[31:23] I will know when you fall into out of

[31:25] safety because I'm watching you if I am.

[31:29] Um and that's why

[31:31] you know, in each other's care is we're

[31:34] psychobiologically wired in close

[31:36] proximity to pick up social emotional

[31:39] cues faster from the other person than

[31:43] we are from our own bodies.

[31:45] >> Mhm.

[31:46] >> That makes it

[31:47] uh that makes us primed for something

[31:49] called interactive regulation or

[31:51] coregulation, right?

[31:53] Um that's another kind of teamwork but

[31:55] it's more autonomic.

[31:57] Anyway, so uh so

[32:00] uh it doesn't you know, this is a very

[32:02] stupid part of us but it's but we'll

[32:04] thank it because we dodged a bullet.

[32:06] Um

[32:07] and and so

[32:09] I have to understand

[32:12] that you and I

[32:14] have to talk to each other in a

[32:16] particular way.

[32:18] Otherwise

[32:20] uh you'll confuse me as an adversary.

[32:24] And this is what's hard about secure

[32:25] functioning. The formula really is

[32:29] I have to take care of myself and you at

[32:33] the same time

[32:35] under stress or you will confuse me for

[32:37] an adversary. And it will compel you to

[32:40] then take care of yourself on

[32:43] Now we're one-person systems. We're no

[32:45] longer

[32:46] in a team sport, we're in a solo sport.

[32:48] >> Does this explain

[32:50] how

[32:51] >> everybody. There are no exceptions to

[32:53] this, by the way. They're all people.

[32:55] >> Mhm.

[32:56] Does this explain how resentment

[32:57] accumulates in relationships, and

[32:59] relationships start to look very

[33:00] deranged from

[33:02] both the outside and the inside?

[33:04] >> Um

[33:05] One of the greatest uh causes of anger,

[33:08] sustained anger, is injustice, right?

[33:11] Uh the other is helplessness. Um

[33:14] uh

[33:15] uh

[33:15] uh and, you know, right? And so

[33:18] a any any system that's too unfair, too

[33:21] unjust, uh and too insensitive can't

[33:23] last because it's unfair, unless

[33:26] it's an employer, you know, asymmetric

[33:29] relationship where I have to suck it up

[33:30] cuz I want the job and I need the money.

[33:33] But in in a in a equal system that's

[33:37] voluntary, that's voluntary,

[33:40] if it's not fair and just, um

[33:42] and I'm getting the short end of the

[33:44] stick, you should keep your eyes open at

[33:45] night cuz that never ends well

[33:48] uh in the human uh field, right? And so

[33:52] insecure functioning is too unfair.

[33:55] Uh it's good to be king.

[33:56] Um and I get things at your cost, not

[33:59] realizing that we're tied together

[34:02] psychobiologically. Anything I do to you

[34:05] is going to happen to me.

[34:07] There's no decoupling that, unless

[34:09] unless this is an autocracy, unless I am

[34:13] the dictator, in which case I still

[34:15] better keep my eyes open at night. But,

[34:17] you know, then I get to do everything.

[34:19] Um and you have to do it. But that's not

[34:22] the reality of a free and fair union of

[34:25] equals in an adulthood, right? The

[34:27] expectation is that it be fair, whether

[34:30] people say that or not, it is that way.

[34:33] And that's universal.

[34:35] >> How much can you prune those bad

[34:37] memories? How much harder is it to get

[34:39] over that once you've accumulated them?

[34:42] >> You can't get rid of these memories and

[34:44] you don't want to because that'll happen

[34:46] sooner enough. I'm 72 and starting to

[34:48] happen

[34:50] with names, but you don't want to get

[34:52] rid of those memories.

[34:53] Um the only way to change the past is to

[34:55] change the future.

[34:57] There's no other way. These these

[34:59] neuropathways are weighted by repeats,

[35:03] right? We're repeating things. Yeah, and

[35:05] that's the worst.

[35:06] >> Mhm.

[35:07] >> This is the smart thing to do that we

[35:08] already know and couples don't do. One

[35:11] is

[35:12] I will apologize forever for harm done.

[35:14] That is the right and just thing to do.

[35:17] In the real world, that is expected. I

[35:19] don't get a free pass in memory.

[35:23] Right? By saying, "I don't need to

[35:24] apologize. I did my time in prison."

[35:26] That's not ever going to work. Same in

[35:30] couples, right? I'll always apologize

[35:32] for what you feel I did. No problem. But

[35:35] let's put something in place, you and I,

[35:38] to prevent either of us from doing that

[35:41] again.

[35:43] If only

[35:45] we did that.

[35:47] We'd be great.

[35:49] Because we're doing the same thing.

[35:52] We're learning from the past and we're

[35:54] creating a future that is different

[35:57] based on what we learned. Let's not do

[35:59] that again. Not you, not just me, either

[36:02] of us cuz we're human. We could both do

[36:05] this.

[36:06] So, we found a place where we're

[36:07] vulnerable.

[36:08] Let's close that up as we go.

[36:12] But couples don't do that.

[36:13] They just walk right into the same thing

[36:15] again, rinse and repeat, and that is

[36:17] deadly.

[36:19] You do not want repetition. It creates

[36:21] inflammation. Once that repetition

[36:23] start, it accrues. And sadly, I deal

[36:26] with couples that have been together,

[36:27] you know, sometimes 12 years, but you

[36:29] know, often three to 30 years.

[36:31] And they're burdened not only by

[36:35] having to uh look back at all the

[36:37] resentments, but they feel compelled to

[36:40] litigate the past.

[36:42] >> Mhm.

[36:42] >> Just rehearsing the same thing that

[36:44] nothing comes of it.

[36:46] And besides, memory sucks and they're

[36:47] going to fight about memory.

[36:49] I'm I'm there and they're not watching

[36:51] where they're going, so they're

[36:52] repeating.

[36:54] Um I The other thing is that when they

[36:56] do try to work on the relationship, now

[36:59] memory intrudes

[37:01] on the present and puts the kibosh on

[37:04] the future.

[37:05] This is a big problem we're trying to

[37:07] solve.

[37:08] >> How so? How does this happen?

[37:10] >> We you and I have been fighting for

[37:12] years.

[37:13] And and um we both complain of

[37:16] unfairness. Right? And we neither of us

[37:19] trust each other now because we did

[37:21] that. We did that.

[37:23] Um years of doing business poorly.

[37:26] Now we want to right things, right? And

[37:29] we go to, let's say, me or anybody who's

[37:31] pre uh proposing, let's design this

[37:34] thing from the ground up.

[37:36] Um

[37:37] as we're doing this,

[37:39] one of us is going to go, that's not

[37:42] going to you know, you know.

[37:44] Why are you depressed? Because he'll

[37:46] never do this.

[37:48] I already know. And now I'm back

[37:50] because [snorts]

[37:51] subcortically

[37:53] I'm being yelled at.

[37:55] Don't trust him.

[37:58] That won't happen. It's right?

[38:01] Why am I being fatalistic? Because I'm

[38:04] being warned on what has happened.

[38:08] It doesn't It has no interest

[38:11] and I say yeah to this these networks

[38:13] that are subcortical

[38:15] have no interest that we're working on

[38:17] something to improve it.

[38:20] Therefore, what is now causing us a big

[38:24] problem is that neither of us can forget

[38:27] as we're going forward. Going forward

[38:30] triggers the past. The past is always

[38:33] present. That's the problem. Yeah. Past

[38:36] that we created.

[38:37] >> Yeah.

[38:38] >> That it adds a huge

[38:41] neurobiological layer of difficulty.

[38:44] Think of this. Um

[38:47] uh

[38:48] you know, as numbers grow gets more

[38:50] difficult because of memory. Israel and

[38:53] Palestine Palestine.

[38:55] They cannot get out of this loop because

[38:58] there are generations upon generations

[39:01] of memory.

[39:03] Where everybody is getting their

[39:05] justice, right? I want my justice and

[39:08] it's to blow up your family and now you

[39:10] have a reason to get your justice and

[39:13] and there's no getting out of that,

[39:15] right? Because there's too many people

[39:16] with too much memory and there's too

[39:18] many people wanting to get their justice

[39:21] at the cost of somebody else.

[39:23] Well, partners do this, too. I want my

[39:25] justice and now I create a new one at

[39:27] you, right?

[39:29] You could put the kibosh on that. But it

[39:31] is hard because the very same problem

[39:34] is that I feel that something happened

[39:36] to me.

[39:37] There's that itch I need to scratch. I

[39:40] need you to pay. I need I need something

[39:44] to square this. Because there have been

[39:46] too many years of unfairness and

[39:48] sometimes I just have to divorce you.

[39:50] So,

[39:52] I this accruing of memory is central and

[39:56] if people only knew,

[39:58] they could prevent this.

[40:00] Uh because it is human nature. It's not

[40:03] him or her. It's all of us. This is a

[40:06] problem.

[40:07] And if you don't know about it, you're

[40:09] going to do it.

[40:11] >> It feels like prevention is

[40:13] significantly better than an attempt at

[40:14] repair.

[40:15] >> Yes, because you cannot erase the

[40:17] memory. You can only relegate it those

[40:21] neuro pathways to a dirt road cuz

[40:23] they're no longer being used. They're no

[40:25] longer being triggered. Nothing you're

[40:27] doing right now triggers that memory.

[40:30] >> But given that most people live lives of

[40:32] routine,

[40:33] um

[40:34] you

[40:36] were concerned and

[40:39] small amount of justification about why

[40:41] your partner was staying late at work

[40:43] with somebody that you felt

[40:44] uncomfortable about.

[40:46] You learned this lesson and you even do

[40:49] some of the repair. You deal with all

[40:50] the difficulty of

[40:52] going back over it. You do an open and

[40:54] honest completely frank apology. But the

[40:56] next time that your partner stays late

[40:57] at work

[40:59] regardless of what's been done to the

[41:01] past

[41:02] the present and your predictions about

[41:04] the future are now being colored by what

[41:06] happened before.

[41:07] >> Right. Right.

[41:08] Not only is the past always present but

[41:11] the present is changing the past as

[41:13] well.

[41:14] So you and I had a great wedding um but

[41:18] our marriage sucks and 12 years, 13, 15,

[41:21] 20 years down the line, the therapist

[41:24] ask us, "How was your wedding?"

[41:26] And our report is not great.

[41:29] Contrast that with a couple who had the

[41:32] worst had wedding from hell. People were

[41:34] arrested, drugs were found, um

[41:36] looted all gifts were looted all sorts

[41:39] of things happened. This is a true

[41:40] story.

[41:41] But their marriage um

[41:44] was it became a great marriage. They

[41:46] look back on it as funny

[41:49] as amazing. Um

[41:53] the present state of mind changes our

[41:56] memory which is why memory

[41:58] it is completely unreliable, folks.

[42:02] If you're arguing about memory, you're

[42:04] you're engaged in something where you're

[42:05] both wrong.

[42:06] >> Which is why it's so much better to just

[42:09] apologize for however your partner sees

[42:11] it.

[42:11] >> Yeah, you don't lose anything.

[42:13] You gain. You keep your marriage. You

[42:15] keep your your relationship intact.

[42:17] >> Does distance make this harder?

[42:19] Obviously, we're in a a modern world

[42:20] with a lot of people who argue, but

[42:22] they're not together.

[42:23] Um

[42:24] maybe they fight over the phone or text

[42:27] message or email, whatever. Does What

[42:30] does What wrinkles does that add to the

[42:32] rupture and repair conversation?

[42:34] >> I love your questions, Chris. They're

[42:36] great. Um

[42:38] here's the problem.

[42:39] We're We're

[42:41] We're face-to-face eye-to-eye animals.

[42:43] We're legally blind on this side. We

[42:44] have to be dead on to regulate each

[42:46] other because we're visual We have a

[42:48] visual brain.

[42:49] Therefore, we error correct through the

[42:51] visual field.

[42:52] Everything else is messy.

[42:54] So, if we're on the phone, we lose the

[42:57] visual, which means we're only using the

[43:00] auditory.

[43:01] Now, since we're visual, we're

[43:02] visualizing things according to our own

[43:04] state of mind. So, if I'm angry with

[43:07] you, what picture of you in my head do I

[43:09] have at the moment? Probably not great.

[43:12] That colors how you sound.

[43:15] Um so, my error rate in understanding

[43:19] and appraising you, especially if I'm

[43:21] under stress, all of this is about when

[43:24] we're under stress,

[43:25] which is a lot,

[43:27] right? We're only talking about when one

[43:30] of us is under stress, things are going

[43:32] to go wonky if we're not not careful.

[43:36] Under stress, I'm going to hear

[43:39] differently.

[43:40] Because the state of mind that is that

[43:43] is triggered by this

[43:45] by my feeling, by my stress,

[43:48] is connected to memory.

[43:50] And they they operate in a loop. They

[43:52] reinforce each other.

[43:55] The my state of mind alters my

[43:56] perception like a funhouse mirror.

[43:59] And it's stunning.

[44:00] What I see, what I taste, what I hear,

[44:03] what I feel, all of that is altered by

[44:06] my state.

[44:08] Therefore,

[44:09] what could go wrong here?

[44:11] Um I am at a angry state. I am talking

[44:15] in a way my prosody changes that is

[44:17] unfriendly to you. I can't see your

[44:19] face, you can't see my face. Maybe I was

[44:21] smiling.

[44:22] Uh you don't know. Uh now we're going to

[44:24] fight for no reason because we're our

[44:28] error rate is sky high and the more

[44:30] excited we get

[44:31] the worst uh the error rate goes really

[44:34] high, right?

[44:36] And [clears throat] and it's over

[44:38] nothing, right? It's over our brain

[44:40] thinks it's something, it isn't.

[44:42] Um or text.

[44:44] I mean, it's crazy. Uh

[44:47] never do relationship stuff or text. You

[44:49] send your

[44:50] a picture of your goofy face, I love

[44:53] you, emoticons,

[44:54] uh what time's dinner? That's it. No

[44:56] >> That's the limit. That's the upper bound

[44:58] of how much your relationship should be

[44:59] mediated through the phone.

[45:01] >> Yes. I What did we used to do?

[45:04] Well, you used to draw pictures on a

[45:06] cave, but you know,

[45:08] in the old days I'd write you a letter

[45:10] and it would take a month at least to

[45:12] get to you. You could be sure I

[45:14] wrote that thinking very carefully

[45:18] very carefully about what I am saying.

[45:20] It was beautiful letter, right? Yeah,

[45:22] beautiful letter. I didn't need spell

[45:24] check.

[45:25] I had my anxiety knowing that you're

[45:27] going to see this letter and it was

[45:29] going to take about a month, right? I

[45:30] wanted you to get this exactly right.

[45:35] Well, what do we do now?

[45:38] We get in a lot of trouble with our

[45:39] text, with our work, you know, with you

[45:42] know, add to that a little bit of Ambien

[45:43] or a little bit of benzodiazepines or

[45:45] alcohol and everything and we're

[45:46] screwed. So,

[45:50] yeah, we do not understand our

[45:52] limitations. There are things we cannot

[45:54] do and yet we expect things that are not

[45:58] possible. Like you and I under stress

[46:00] can talk about more than one topic

[46:03] without fighting, that's impossible.

[46:05] Or that you and I can talk about an

[46:07] emotional conversation while one of us

[46:09] is driving.

[46:11] That will end badly. It's not possible.

[46:13] Uh you know, there are things that

[46:16] people don't understand that we're

[46:18] limited

[46:19] by. We're smart in so many areas and

[46:22] we're so stupid on a daily

[46:26] basis.

[46:27] And it's funny except we take all of it

[46:30] personally and most of it isn't. Most of

[46:32] it is because we're stupid, automatic,

[46:35] reflexive, memory based, not thinking,

[46:36] not paying attention.

[46:38] Um because we live in a world where our

[46:40] attention is constantly split now.

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[47:39] What does I'm thinking about

[47:42] kind of how we discussed at the top this

[47:44] it's like a conversation about

[47:45] compatibility.

[47:48] How much of relationship conflict is

[47:51] just based around incompatibility and

[47:53] and not pointing in the same direction

[47:55] or being specific about what each of you

[47:57] wants to see if you're in agreement in

[47:59] advance.

[48:01] >> Compatibility in my game, in my mind,

[48:05] only is where you and I are pointing in

[48:08] two different directions on the big

[48:10] ticket items, right? I want full

[48:13] transparency. I want us to have you

[48:15] know, we're this is a team sports as I.

[48:17] I want us to work together. I want our

[48:21] left hands and right hands to know the

[48:22] same thing. That keeps us safe. That's

[48:25] what I want best thing and you say not

[48:27] so fast.

[48:28] I don't which you have a right to say.

[48:31] I don't think that's the best idea for

[48:33] me. I don't think it's really good for

[48:35] you, but I'll try to convince you.

[48:37] I think we should have our secrets. I

[48:39] think we should have our privacy.

[48:41] Every right to want that.

[48:43] Now, if you stick to your guns and I

[48:44] can't get you over to my side, you can't

[48:46] get me over to your side

[48:48] in an honest way. I have to really

[48:50] selfishly want what you want or it won't

[48:53] work.

[48:54] And vice versa.

[48:56] Um, we're not we're incompatible.

[49:00] We're we're just we're not wrong, we're

[49:01] just incompatible.

[49:03] Um, that's true incompatibility. Not you

[49:06] have a greater sex drive than I do. Not

[49:08] um, I like tennis and you don't. Not

[49:11] Right?

[49:12] That's not the kind of compatibility

[49:15] that's going to make a difference in

[49:17] life. Cuz every all interests are going

[49:19] to change no matter what.

[49:21] That's not a problem, right? You can

[49:23] create mutual interests.

[49:25] Um, but these things won't work. It's

[49:28] not about healthy, unhealthy, good, bad,

[49:30] right, or wrong. It just can't work.

[49:32] Right? Uh, it's a built-in fight.

[49:35] So, uh, you know, you can't ignore those

[49:37] things.

[49:38] But the attachment system, the I can't

[49:40] quit you biology will make us go

[49:43] let's get married

[49:44] and ignore that deal breaker.

[49:47] >> [laughter]

[49:48] >> It's

[49:48] >> What's You've said it a couple of times,

[49:50] uh, the I can't quit you biology. What

[49:52] is that?

[49:54] >> Attachment

[49:56] is is nature's glue. It keeps us sticky.

[49:59] It keeps us together.

[50:01] And and it feels like love cuz it has

[50:05] loving

[50:06] aspects to it and behaviorally

[50:09] could have it.

[50:11] But let's say you or an I are I'm

[50:14] abusive. I hurt you physically and

[50:17] mentally.

[50:19] Um

[50:20] that glue is likely to keep you in this

[50:22] relationship and you'll justify it in

[50:24] all sorts of ways.

[50:26] Um or because you're financially

[50:28] dependent on me, you'll justify it. Or

[50:30] because your religion says this. Or

[50:32] because you're in a in a culture where

[50:34] divorce is looked down upon. Or whatever

[50:37] it is, you'll come up with or the kids,

[50:38] the kids will suffer that, right? I have

[50:41] all these reasons, but I'm telling you

[50:42] the main reason

[50:44] is the attachment biology. That is uh

[50:47] connected to survival. That feels like

[50:49] death.

[50:51] I'm largely unaware of it. Some people

[50:53] are acutely aware.

[50:56] Right? Depending on their attachment

[50:57] organization.

[50:58] Um but that isn't always there thing for

[51:01] most people. There are outliers, but

[51:04] they are they're different. They don't

[51:06] they

[51:07] they're different. Um they don't attach

[51:09] in the same way.

[51:11] Um and so uh it you know, it it the

[51:15] everything in nature has a feature

[51:18] and a bug. Everything that's feature is

[51:21] a bug. And also in personalities, also

[51:24] I you know, if somebody has massive OCD,

[51:27] that's a feature for a a surgeon. For

[51:30] you know, you want your surgeon to have

[51:32] OCD. You want your surgeon your your

[51:34] pilot to have OC, right? Your accountant

[51:36] to have OC. That's great. You don't want

[51:38] a spouse with OCD necessarily cuz that's

[51:40] a pain in the ass.

[51:42] That's a bug there. So all of this

[51:46] isn't really good or bad. All people are

[51:48] disappointing. All people are pain in

[51:50] the ass. All people are are trouble and

[51:53] a burden.

[51:54] Um

[51:56] what you want is to create a system

[51:58] whereby neither of you can possibly feel

[52:01] unsafe or insecure by design.

[52:04] Neither of you will be unhappy in a

[52:06] relationship by design. You can do that.

[52:09] You can structure things this way.

[52:12] You can't control everything else

[52:15] outside of this, but home I think is as

[52:17] a relationship. Tracy and I,

[52:20] no matter where we go,

[52:22] as long as we're together, I'm fine.

[52:25] And and we've been in some really

[52:27] terrible places. I mean, really terrible

[52:30] places.

[52:31] That's an achievement.

[52:33] >> Mhm.

[52:33] >> Right. You know, that home is where we

[52:35] are.

[52:37] Uh it's going to make me want to cry

[52:38] because when you start to get to this

[52:41] place,

[52:43] the only thing now that's the bug is

[52:46] worrying that you know, you could lose

[52:47] them.

[52:49] You know, not

[52:50] to,

[52:51] you know, affairs, not to divorce, but

[52:54] to death.

[52:55] And and that's really troubling.

[52:58] Although it does make me

[53:01] um appreciate

[53:03] the moment instead of taking it for

[53:05] granted, which is what we should all do

[53:08] cuz we're in denial about that. Your

[53:11] partner could die at any moment. Did you

[53:13] say what you needed to say? Have you

[53:14] really enjoyed that person? Are you

[53:16] really [clears throat] here?

[53:18] Or are you going to regret uh that you,

[53:20] you know,

[53:21] um that's again, nature's forces.

[53:25] Energy conservation is to do the least

[53:28] amount necessary and direct our

[53:29] attention to what we deem important.

[53:32] It's usually something that is not

[53:34] familiar.

[53:35] You are familiar, therefore I don't need

[53:37] to look at you anymore. I don't need to

[53:38] court you or I don't need to

[53:41] I know you anymore. I think I know you.

[53:43] I don't.

[53:44] Um I I I you know, we store a picture of

[53:48] our partners and our children's face in

[53:49] our brain for weeks and months without

[53:52] really looking.

[53:53] I didn't even notice

[53:55] this.

[53:57] That's how lazy we are.

[53:59] And it's not laziness. It's energy

[54:00] conservation. Therefore, we have to

[54:03] build rituals otherwise we would never

[54:05] do anything good for ourselves. We would

[54:06] have to,

[54:08] you know, build things in that are

[54:10] romantic every day that we would do to

[54:13] to fall in love again with each other

[54:15] every day. It just doesn't happen.

[54:19] Uh behavior lags at hell of how we feel.

[54:22] And the and these are the forces we're

[54:24] up against.

[54:25] Um all of us, automation. And we're

[54:28] going to automate each other. Therefore,

[54:30] I think I know you. That's a dangerous

[54:32] proposition.

[54:33] I don't know you. I

[54:35] I don't I can never fully know you. And

[54:38] not only that, you've been on the planet

[54:40] too long. Which is why we used to have

[54:42] pillow talk and shoot the breeze and

[54:44] about our childhood. It's just fun talk.

[54:47] Now I see I see but couples and they

[54:48] know nothing about each other.

[54:51] They're not curious. There's no

[54:52] curiosity. Curiosity is the flame.

[54:55] Curiosity is the dopamine. Curiosity is

[54:57] the strangeness that goes,

[54:59] you know,

[55:00] you're novel even though I think you're

[55:03] familiar.

[55:05] If I look really closely,

[55:07] you're not as familiar as I think. Now

[55:09] you're interesting. But we'd have to

[55:11] look

[55:12] for the novelty in the ordinary. And

[55:16] we're too lazy to do that.

[55:17] >> It's interesting with the

[55:19] I can't quit you thing. I think a lot of

[55:21] people you you you mentioned uh

[55:23] injustice and helplessness. Yes. And uh

[55:26] it's strange that

[55:27] >> And fear and fear make us angry.

[55:30] >> Yeah. Uh

[55:32] with sort of sufficiently disorganized

[55:35] attachment,

[55:37] you can fear and feel injustice and be

[55:40] helplessly stuck inside of a

[55:44] relationship with a person who is both

[55:47] supposedly the self but also the cause

[55:49] of all of these

[55:51] >> Yeah.

[55:51] >> issues of your your

[55:54] psychological maladies. And people will

[55:57] it's another feature and bug scenario

[55:59] where

[56:00] it's a noble thing to sacrifice your

[56:02] needs in place of somebody that you're

[56:04] attached to, but that also can get

[56:06] hijacked to the point where

[56:08] you just continue to grit your teeth as

[56:10] you mentioned a couple that's been

[56:11] together for so long and they haven't

[56:13] enjoyed each other for decades and

[56:15] decades.

[56:16] And they just keep going because

[56:18] >> They can't stop.

[56:20] >> Yeah. Yeah, it's the same

[56:21] addiction.

[56:22] >> There is

[56:24] well,

[56:25] yeah, it there is an addictive component

[56:28] to it. I don't want to mislead your

[56:30] audience because it's not truly that. Um

[56:34] when I when I do something to feel

[56:36] better at the at the cost of doing the

[56:38] right thing. In other words, I feel

[56:40] better, but I just hurt the

[56:41] relationship, the union.

[56:43] I do get a reward for that, right?

[56:47] I feel good, which makes me want to do

[56:49] it again and again. And it is, you know,

[56:51] it is like addiction where I'm going to

[56:53] grab for it because I can't hold and

[56:56] wait. I can't wait, right? I'm going to

[56:58] take it now even though there's

[57:00] downstream bad effects for me, I'm

[57:02] ignoring those.

[57:03] So in that sense, yeah, that's very much

[57:05] like an addiction that is impulsive and

[57:08] and needs to grab impulsively what I

[57:10] need to do

[57:11] despite the fact that it's self-harming.

[57:15] Um so yes, but the system begins to

[57:19] react to itself.

[57:21] And that's really another way to look at

[57:23] it as systemic. And the system is

[57:25] reacting no longer real individuals.

[57:27] They're amplifying each other's

[57:29] negatives by pointing and

[57:32] poking

[57:33] uh their core vulnerabilities.

[57:35] Here's another unfair kind of unkind

[57:38] nature thing.

[57:40] Is that because we pair bond based on

[57:42] some kind of familiarity and

[57:44] recognition? We don't pair bond with

[57:46] strangers that are too strange, right?

[57:48] They have to be familiar enough.

[57:50] Um

[57:51] Um we're both likely to have the bite

[57:53] that fits the other person's wound.

[57:56] Um we're not those people, but we kind

[57:58] of play them on TV.

[58:00] Uh we have the we have the predilection,

[58:02] we have the ability to do those things

[58:05] that remind us of those relationships,

[58:07] which is why it's problematic. It's a

[58:10] memory.

[58:11] Um now, if [clears throat] we didn't

[58:12] know better,

[58:14] I don't know you have this wound.

[58:16] I only see your defense against it, and

[58:19] your defense is really threatening.

[58:21] So, I respond in a threatening way,

[58:24] which consolidates your vulnerability

[58:27] and increases your defense.

[58:30] And right, and makes you certain that

[58:32] I'm a dangerous character.

[58:34] Well, you're doing the same with me.

[58:37] You're have You happen to be poking me

[58:39] in a core vulnerable place.

[58:42] Um and that I can't do anything other

[58:44] than react.

[58:46] Um you don't know this, um because the

[58:48] way I'm responding to you feels

[58:50] threatening, of course. Therefore, you

[58:52] are going to protect yourself from me,

[58:54] and therein lies the problem. We're

[58:56] going to make each other worse,

[58:59] naturally.

[59:00] Cuz you're not paid to sit there and

[59:03] just think about what I'm doing.

[59:06] You're going to take it personally.

[59:07] Now, if you're a therapist, you can't do

[59:09] that, right? I have to sit and I have to

[59:10] sit with my feelings and not you know,

[59:12] not jump up and act out.

[59:15] I have, [clears throat]

[59:16] but I regret that. But, you know, it's

[59:18] you know, we're human. But but we're

[59:20] paid to do otherwise, right? Your

[59:22] partner isn't. And and therefore, we're

[59:24] more likely to make each other worse.

[59:27] Because it's a misunderstanding.

[59:29] You can't know why I'm doing this thing

[59:31] threatening thing and you don't need to

[59:33] know because you're feeling threatened.

[59:35] So,

[59:37] knowledge is power. Understanding how

[59:40] the brain works, understanding how these

[59:41] systems work, understanding your partner

[59:43] inside out, being an expert on your

[59:45] partner,

[59:46] which if your survival mattered to you

[59:49] and you thought about it,

[59:51] you better know how to restore your

[59:54] partner back to

[59:56] uh you know, level thinking and level uh

[59:59] performance because your life does

[1:00:01] depend on them. They go down,

[1:00:04] you're in the foxhole together, you're

[1:00:05] dead.

[1:00:06] So, you better know the animal you

[1:00:07] picked and how to how to work with this

[1:00:09] animal, be an animal whisperer this one.

[1:00:12] They're not you.

[1:00:14] And you're going to need them if you are

[1:00:16] a team.

[1:00:17] It matters if they go down and you

[1:00:19] better know how, just the right way, to

[1:00:23] pick them back up or you you you're this

[1:00:26] is yeah.

[1:00:27] Again, what what's the point?

[1:00:30] So, this is an orientation and

[1:00:33] couples just not not oriented towards

[1:00:36] this being a survival team.

[1:00:38] But it is. You just haven't been tested

[1:00:41] yet.

[1:00:42] Life has not thrown you that curve.

[1:00:44] You're not in

[1:00:46] Bosnia during that time. Uh you're not

[1:00:49] in Ukraine and Russia now. You're not in

[1:00:53] Gaza. Uh

[1:00:54] or you know, right? Uh the whole

[1:00:57] different orientation there. They know

[1:00:59] what's important. It's uh to protect

[1:01:02] each other, right? Uh we don't.

[1:01:06] We're asleep.

[1:01:07] Um that's the denial system cuz it would

[1:01:10] get in the way if we always had to plan

[1:01:12] for this.

[1:01:13] But

[1:01:15] the planning for this starts with the

[1:01:17] building blocks of reining each other in

[1:01:20] and being safe and secure and

[1:01:23] and predicting and planning and

[1:01:25] preventing

[1:01:27] future problems by predicting them ahead

[1:01:29] of time, that does the same thing. You

[1:01:31] don't have to build, you know, together

[1:01:34] a bomb shelter.

[1:01:36] Uh that's not what I'm talking about.

[1:01:38] I'm talking about

[1:01:39] that

[1:01:40] that the two of you know how to build

[1:01:42] structure, how to how to reform this to

[1:01:45] your liking.

[1:01:46] You just have to know how to do it and

[1:01:48] practice it.

[1:01:49] And it has to be predicated on

[1:01:51] principles that cannot be violated.

[1:01:54] >> Jared, have you ever considered you

[1:01:56] might have a drinking problem?

[1:01:57] >> I don't consider a lot, Chris.

[1:01:59] >> Well, you drank an entire case of

[1:02:00] Athletic Brewing Co. last night.

[1:02:02] >> But they're non-alcoholic.

[1:02:03] >> And that's not a problem?

[1:02:05] >> Sorry, man. I kept chugging waiting for

[1:02:07] the regret to creep in. Never happened.

[1:02:09] >> Didn't you end up going home with that

[1:02:10] chick with the lazy eye?

[1:02:12] >> I didn't seem lazy to me.

[1:02:15] >> [snorts]

[1:02:15] >> See, most people, like Jared, don't

[1:02:17] actually want to change what they drink.

[1:02:18] They just don't want the next day to be

[1:02:20] a complete write-off, which is why I'm

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[1:02:23] They make the best NA brews on the

[1:02:25] planet, so you can still have something

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[1:02:43] using the code modernwisdom at checkout.

[1:02:45] That's athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom

[1:02:47] at modernwisdom at checkout. Near beer

[1:02:49] terms and conditions apply. Athletic

[1:02:50] Brewing Company, fit for all times.

[1:02:53] >> If you could give

[1:02:55] people, couples,

[1:02:57] the

[1:02:59] most important big movers, the most

[1:03:01] important principles that they should

[1:03:03] follow to create these secure

[1:03:05] functioning relationships. That's what

[1:03:07] everybody wants, right?

[1:03:09] >> Yes.

[1:03:09] >> The thing that is the most important,

[1:03:11] it's going to help us steel ourselves

[1:03:13] against the woes of the world and the

[1:03:16] slings and arrows that are going to come

[1:03:18] from outside of it.

[1:03:20] What are the things that people should

[1:03:21] focus on in order to do that?

[1:03:24] >> On a on a more focused level, I'm going

[1:03:27] to give you two, see.

[1:03:29] On focused level, start now.

[1:03:32] If you do nothing else,

[1:03:33] uh make sure that you repair to the

[1:03:36] other person's satisfaction. See their

[1:03:39] face relax. If they're not relaxed,

[1:03:41] you're not done yet.

[1:03:42] Repair, fix, make it right, make amends

[1:03:45] probably immediately or within 30

[1:03:48] minutes.

[1:03:49] Make that a habit, make that

[1:03:52] a law, make that what must happen.

[1:03:56] Otherwise, you're going to die sooner. I

[1:03:58] guarantee you because of the the

[1:04:00] cortical steroids you produce in that

[1:04:02] stress when there's a breach. You're not

[1:04:05] doing yourself any favors.

[1:04:07] And [clears throat] you're setting the

[1:04:08] other person up for and yourself for um

[1:04:11] long-term damage. And that's you're not

[1:04:13] going to want that.

[1:04:15] So, fix fix it right away. I don't care

[1:04:17] how you do that. If you can do nothing

[1:04:19] else, you can say to each other, uh you

[1:04:22] know, I hate you right now, but we're

[1:04:24] okay.

[1:04:26] It turns out that the we're okay is is

[1:04:29] is sufficient

[1:04:32] to be able to sleep through the night or

[1:04:34] be able to get through your day cuz I

[1:04:36] promise you if you don't do that, you're

[1:04:38] you are not at your optimum performance

[1:04:41] level. You can't be. Uh you won't be

[1:04:43] unless you're paying attention.

[1:04:45] So, you know what's good for yourself.

[1:04:48] You just settle the existential question

[1:04:50] that is there when there's a breach in

[1:04:53] relationship when we fight,

[1:04:55] will this relationship exist tomorrow?

[1:04:58] Are we okay? If you can just do that,

[1:05:01] minimum, you're better than most.

[1:05:04] And

[1:05:05] my wife and I have a

[1:05:07] a rule.

[1:05:08] We can go to bed angry, but we have to

[1:05:10] at least touch toes.

[1:05:12] And that's harder than you might think.

[1:05:14] But um but that's been practiced and

[1:05:17] there's an immediate reward for doing

[1:05:19] the right thing when it's the hardest

[1:05:20] thing to do. And that is your

[1:05:21] self-esteem goes right up.

[1:05:24] Because you know you did the hardest

[1:05:26] thing, the right thing when it was the

[1:05:28] hardest thing to do. We're already doing

[1:05:30] the easiest things.

[1:05:31] That's what we're already doing, but

[1:05:33] that's not a good line.

[1:05:35] A purpose-centered life

[1:05:37] is decided ahead of time

[1:05:40] that this is right, best,

[1:05:43] or good, so say us both.

[1:05:46] And we're going to we're going to plan

[1:05:48] to do this for when we

[1:05:50] actually

[1:05:51] do not feel like doing it at all.

[1:05:54] Uh even when I hate you, I still do this

[1:05:56] beautiful thing. Even when I hate you, I

[1:05:58] still don't do this destructive thing,

[1:06:00] right?

[1:06:01] That's a good life. That's the only

[1:06:03] thing that's ever been a good life. That

[1:06:06] is reliable. That earns love. That earns

[1:06:08] respect as daily we're proving to each

[1:06:10] other.

[1:06:11] We stick to our principles. We show each

[1:06:14] other and when we fail, we fall on our

[1:06:15] swords, beg for forgiveness, and make it

[1:06:17] right. Simple.

[1:06:19] Um

[1:06:20] and this the other thing is design your

[1:06:23] relationship. Start with who are you,

[1:06:26] shared power, shared authority,

[1:06:27] something other than that. You've got to

[1:06:29] be explicit and you got to think ahead.

[1:06:31] Yeah, I'd like you to be in charge. I

[1:06:33] like it.

[1:06:34] I Okay. Remember that uh if uh if he's

[1:06:38] in charge, you don't get the final say

[1:06:41] on anything.

[1:06:42] You understand that, right? Unless you

[1:06:44] build that in somehow.

[1:06:46] Right? And so

[1:06:48] >> [clears throat]

[1:06:48] >> you just have to

[1:06:49] be adult and a grown-up because yours

[1:06:52] your individual lives are now your own,

[1:06:55] not your parents.

[1:06:57] And this and as a couple, you're on your

[1:06:59] own. You're the leaders here. There is

[1:07:01] nobody else. No therapist, right? I'm

[1:07:05] I'm not going to define your

[1:07:06] relationship. You have to. It's your

[1:07:08] gig. You can have it any way you want,

[1:07:11] and believe me, people have some very

[1:07:13] strange and

[1:07:14] novel arrangements, right? Fine.

[1:07:18] They're great because they fully agree,

[1:07:21] they've worked it out, no problem.

[1:07:24] But they it's all explicit. It's never

[1:07:27] implied.

[1:07:28] Right? Because

[1:07:30] if it's implied,

[1:07:32] I'm going to abuse that that that

[1:07:35] reality, right? It has to be explicit

[1:07:37] and agreed upon

[1:07:38] like a blood oath.

[1:07:40] Because

[1:07:42] this is this really is about our lives

[1:07:45] depend on on adhering to this. We have

[1:07:48] to have to drink the Kool-Aid and buy

[1:07:49] into it because we're in we're expected

[1:07:51] to come through when we least want you,

[1:07:52] and that's going to happen for sure.

[1:07:55] >> Awesome. Stan Tatkin, ladies and

[1:07:56] gentlemen. Stan, I think you're

[1:07:58] brilliant. I think your work rules.

[1:07:59] Where should people go to check out

[1:08:00] everything you do?

[1:08:02] >> All right. The PACT Institute is the

[1:08:04] place to go to. t h e p a c t

[1:08:07] institute.com.

[1:08:09] If you're a couple, there's a couple

[1:08:11] area

[1:08:12] that is

[1:08:13] devoted to you, workshops and retreats,

[1:08:17] materials. And then if you're a

[1:08:19] clinician,

[1:08:21] that's how this started. Um

[1:08:23] I we do trainings

[1:08:25] all over the world, and you can find

[1:08:27] that information there as well. Oh,

[1:08:29] and there's a new product called the

[1:08:30] Win-Win Couple. First time we've done a

[1:08:32] filming on how to work together

[1:08:35] collaboratively

[1:08:37] under stress.

[1:08:39] And that video is now now available on

[1:08:41] the website. They go to

[1:08:43] the PACT site.

[1:08:44] >> Okay. Stan, I appreciate you. Until next

[1:08:47] time.

[1:08:47] >> Chris, you're terrific. I wish every

[1:08:49] interviewer is like you.

[1:08:51] >> That's what I wanted to hear.

[1:08:52] >> All right. Thank you.

[1:08:54] >> Congratulations. You made it to the end

[1:08:55] of a podcast episode without dying. Now,

[1:08:58] here's another one.

[1:09:00] Go on.

[1:09:01] >> [music]

[1:09:01] >> Watch it.

Modern Wisdom
著者Modern Wisdom

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