Transcript
[0:00] you know, an Iawaska circle where then
[0:02] me and my brother are just like there
[0:04] sleeping in sleeping bags on the floor
[0:06] while the grown-ups are like, you know,
[0:08] losing their minds.
[0:09] >> How was that? That's
[0:11] >> again like you don't know that
[0:12] something's strange when you're a kid.
[0:14] It just is kind of
[0:16] >> I met visual artist Clea McKenna,
[0:19] daughter of psychedelic philosopher
[0:21] Terren McKenna [music]
[0:22] and ethnobbotonist Kathleen Harrison.
[0:24] For people like my parents, [music] our
[0:27] inner life is often as interesting or
[0:31] more interesting [music]
[0:32] than the outer world.
[0:34] >> Nature is some kind of minded entity.
[0:40] >> This feeling that the [music] landscape
[0:43] is alive and that it has an agenda like
[0:46] a will. I can see all the problems and
[0:50] [music] processes in my own life like
[0:52] reflected back to me and all the
[0:54] solutions.
[0:54] >> Clea is now archiving her parents'
[0:57] legacy and that started with an art
[0:59] project on Terren's [music] large
[1:01] butterfly collection
[1:03] catching butterflies. I mean that to me
[1:06] is sort of like a metaphor for for his
[1:08] life in a sense because you're chasing
[1:09] something [music] alive and but once you
[1:12] capture it, you know, if you want to
[1:13] really study it, you cannot, you know,
[1:15] you have to kill it. How do you hold on
[1:18] to the insights that [music] you grasp
[1:20] in moments on psychedelics? How do you
[1:23] hold how do you bring that into your
[1:25] down life?
[1:27] >> Return to nature. Culture is not your
[1:31] friend. The clock is ticking.
[1:33] >> When I [music] stand in a tropical
[1:35] rainforest, I feel as though I am
[1:37] standing in a library that is on fire.
[1:40] I think [music] what he meant was not so
[1:42] much that culture is bad, but that the
[1:47] culture that is [music] handed to you by
[1:48] default should be questioned and you
[1:50] should invent your own culture.
[1:58] A warm welcome at the Asencia
[1:59] Foundation's YouTube channel. I'm here
[2:01] in Harlem at the conference on
[2:03] psychedelic research and I have the
[2:05] pleasure of meeting Clea McKenna. Clea,
[2:07] a warm welcome. Thank you.
[2:09] >> You are a visual artist um who makes
[2:13] films, writes and your work has been
[2:15] published internationally and you are
[2:16] currently a Guggenheim fellow on
[2:20] photography and you master the craft of
[2:23] cameraless photography.
[2:25] >> Yes.
[2:26] >> Which is I think a direct way of playing
[2:28] with light, right? More direct than
[2:30] normal photography and it gives like
[2:32] beautiful images. We can show some of
[2:34] your work to our audience. I think it's
[2:35] it's beautiful. And you now also um are
[2:40] archiving the work of your father
[2:42] because you're the daughter of
[2:44] ethnobbotonist Kathleen Harrison and
[2:46] psychedelic philosopher Terrence McKenna
[2:48] that many of our audience will know and
[2:52] you are archiving the legacy of your
[2:54] parents um in the Lux Nura archive. So,
[2:58] it's just great to touch upon your work,
[3:01] the archive, your far father's legacy,
[3:04] and how all of that plays uh together.
[3:08] Um my first question to you I think many
[3:12] people of course hearing that you're the
[3:14] daughter of Terrence McKenna will be how
[3:16] it must have been to have the youth you
[3:19] have with a father doing this work your
[3:20] mother and to in reading also about this
[3:24] in the latest biography on your father
[3:28] it seems that to say that this was sort
[3:30] of an unconventional youth would be like
[3:32] even an understatement right
[3:34] >> yes so I guess where to start on how you
[3:38] reflect back on your youth and how it
[3:40] shaped you as a person but also as an
[3:41] artist.
[3:42] >> Yeah. Um
[3:44] yes, it it was unconventional but I
[3:47] think that you know like most children
[3:49] you sort of what you get is all you know
[3:53] and so there's a way in which as a child
[3:54] you sort of just accept this is how it
[3:57] is. Um, and it's only really once you
[3:59] maybe leave your family of origin and
[4:03] compare your life with other people that
[4:05] you realize how unusual it was or what
[4:08] what was lacking or what was there or,
[4:11] you know,
[4:12] >> [snorts]
[4:12] >> um,
[4:15] but yes, it definitely [sighs and gasps]
[4:18] shaped my artwork and my world view for
[4:21] sure. Um, not entirely. I'd like to
[4:24] think some of my vision is my own, but
[4:26] uh [gasps]
[4:28] I think certainly
[4:30] an awareness of um well relationship to
[4:34] nature that is just very uncommon in um
[4:39] you know western capitalist society kind
[4:41] of and that was given to us partly by
[4:46] the choices my parents made where to
[4:48] live what to value you know but also by
[4:52] their own worldview. view and perhaps
[4:54] more so by indigenous worldviews that we
[4:56] were exposed to as kids, you know,
[4:58] because as my parents would travel and
[5:00] do their work and we traveled a lot in
[5:02] Central and South America,
[5:04] >> um
[5:06] they sort of had the parenting attitude
[5:08] of take your kids wherever you're going
[5:09] and just kind of let them [laughter]
[5:13] go, you know, and so that meant we're
[5:15] playing alongside with the other kids
[5:17] wherever we are. and were kind of, you
[5:20] know, they'd find a local babysitter for
[5:22] us to go off and do while they do their
[5:23] thing. And um I think that exposure to
[5:29] different ways of living had a big
[5:31] impact. Um and I see that in my own
[5:35] artwork and in my own
[5:39] relationship to the world in ways that I
[5:41] thought was just kind of normal. And
[5:43] then the longer I am alive, the more I
[5:46] realize it is it is unique by
[5:48] comparison, at least within my own
[5:50] culture. Um, yeah.
[5:53] >> Yeah. And I think especially what you
[5:54] said that sort of choice your parents
[5:56] made for living in in culture and of
[5:59] course your father very much sort of uh
[6:02] followed that path through his own
[6:04] psychedelic experiences and had this
[6:06] sort of it's hard to say not not
[6:09] negatively but he had a sort of distrust
[6:10] in culture or sort of suspicion on
[6:12] culture like that we have to be be aware
[6:15] what culture does and we radically need
[6:17] to move back to nature. So uh that must
[6:20] have been strange to you. I I I can
[6:23] assume right sort of that how do you see
[6:25] that sort of that that sort of nature
[6:27] versus culture?
[6:29] >> Yes. I actually like listening to him
[6:32] now which I've been doing lately because
[6:34] I'm you know archiving his work and
[6:37] we're developing a podcast that pulls
[6:39] from all the archival talks. Um, I
[6:41] actually think he sort of is like
[6:44] misusing the word culture or at least he
[6:47] needs more different words because he
[6:49] uses the word culture to mean a specific
[6:51] thing and then he uses it in other
[6:53] context to mean something entirely
[6:55] different. And I think when he's talking
[6:56] about it in a negative sense like the
[6:58] culture is not your friend thing.
[7:02] >> I think he means more like society than
[7:05] culture. Do you know what I mean? M
[7:07] >> or maybe it's that over the last 40
[7:09] years our use of that word has evolved
[7:11] and now what it means is a little
[7:13] different than what it meant then. Um
[7:16] I think what he meant was not so much
[7:21] that culture is bad but that the culture
[7:25] that is handed to you by default should
[7:28] be questioned and you should invent your
[7:30] own culture within your own communities
[7:32] and within you know what I mean? I don't
[7:34] think it was that like culture as a
[7:36] concept was bad. I think it was that
[7:37] American mainstream culture was bad.
[7:40] [laughter]
[7:42] >> Yeah. And that's why you because you
[7:43] your your childhood was sort of in
[7:45] between the US and Hawaii where you were
[7:48] homeschooled, right? So you spent quite
[7:49] a lot of time like really in nature.
[7:52] >> Yes. Yes, we did. And that was also, you
[7:55] know, the relationship to plants and to
[7:57] to nature was largely my mom's agenda as
[8:01] well. And you know I think when I look
[8:04] at the way he talks about it he
[8:09] he is articulating it and he understands
[8:12] that intellectually and obviously he's
[8:14] very good at articulating ideas but I
[8:17] think that the person who was feeling
[8:19] that was my mom
[8:21] >> and then her values were being
[8:22] translated through his intellect you
[8:24] know.
[8:25] >> Ah that's interesting.
[8:26] >> Um but yes we lived very rurally in
[8:28] Hawaii. I mean, even in California, we
[8:30] lived rural in a small town out in the
[8:32] country. Um, you know, swimming in
[8:34] creeks and playing in the forest and all
[8:36] of that, but it wasn't, it was still
[8:39] California, you know. And then in
[8:41] Hawaii,
[8:43] excuse [clears throat] me, in Hawaii, we
[8:44] lived um off the grid, like no
[8:46] electricity, no telephones, no anything.
[8:51] Um, and that was definitely a kind of
[8:54] magical period. That was more also my
[8:57] early childhood. And then we moved back
[8:59] to California.
[9:00] >> Um,
[9:02] and yeah, it was a magical time for sure
[9:05] and a time when I became very um
[9:09] conscious of what I now understand as
[9:12] animism.
[9:13] >> But this feeling that the landscape is
[9:16] alive and that it has an agenda. Every
[9:19] not and when I say it, I don't mean like
[9:21] the earth, although that too. I mean
[9:23] like every little element in a
[9:26] landscape, you know, bug, plant, moss,
[9:31] that all of it has an agenda. So, not
[9:33] just that it's alive and that it's
[9:35] interconnected, but that it has like a
[9:37] will
[9:38] >> kind of I think was impressed upon us.
[9:41] And so what that does to your experience
[9:43] of being in nature, I've learned now, is
[9:46] that
[9:48] it is very hard to perceive nature as
[9:52] just like placid and beautiful. And this
[9:55] is in relation to being an artist and
[9:57] thinking about
[10:00] human perception of nature through art
[10:01] history, right? because that's my
[10:03] education is
[10:06] how most modern people perceive nature
[10:09] is a kind of um pastoral beauty. It's
[10:13] like a symbol of something
[10:16] >> calm, you know, and that is not at all
[10:18] how I experience nature. experience
[10:20] nature as um
[10:23] very active as many characters with many
[10:26] needs and wills and agendas all vying
[10:29] for what they want, you know. And so
[10:31] that makes the experience of being in a
[10:34] natural space much more like
[10:38] psychologically complicated and busy.
[10:40] It's more like being at a party with a
[10:42] lot of people and you're kind of aware
[10:44] of like people's social agendas and like
[10:46] oh he likes her but she doesn't want to
[10:49] talk to this person but you know but if
[10:51] you think of every plant and animal and
[10:52] organism that way then it makes things
[10:54] very um a little bit overwhelming.
[10:58] >> That's beautiful. I think what you said
[10:59] about sort of that animistic worldview
[11:01] and also the complexities it has and not
[11:04] this romantic view that that many of us
[11:06] have when we think about nature and um
[11:10] of course people who have had
[11:11] psychedelic experiences can sort of more
[11:14] relate to this I guess to the will of
[11:17] the the world around us
[11:19] >> and a big question I have is what
[11:20] psychedelics what the role was in your
[11:22] upbringing did your parents keep it sort
[11:24] of as a separate thing as their work was
[11:27] it integrated and were you introd uced
[11:28] early on to psychedelics.
[11:31] >> Yes, it was very integrated and they
[11:35] were of the opinion not to hide anything
[11:38] from their kids.
[11:40] >> Um, and I remember very clearly, you
[11:43] know, some of their closest friends even
[11:44] had kids who they who where the parents
[11:48] did hide it. So, we go over to their
[11:49] house and then they say, "Oh, you know,
[11:51] we can't get stoned until the kids are
[11:53] in bed." And my brother and I were
[11:55] always just like, "Okay." like
[11:57] [laughter] they also they know the kids
[11:58] know you know kids know everything.
[12:01] >> Um so no my parents were very open very
[12:04] they didn't hide anything. They talked
[12:06] with us a lot about all of it and it
[12:10] might be surprising to people to know
[12:11] that it was not just some loosey goosey
[12:14] like drugs are great. They had very
[12:18] strong moral judgments about which drugs
[12:21] are okay and which ones aren't
[12:23] >> and they laid that on heavily including
[12:25] a real judgment around alcohol
[12:28] >> as like that doesn't count you know like
[12:30] and that's for like normal people
[12:33] [laughter] that's not for us.
[12:34] >> Yeah. Um [clears throat] so yes they
[12:37] they it was around we were I mean prior
[12:40] to ever like taking psych they didn't
[12:42] give us psychedelics as small children
[12:44] although we did start very young but um
[12:47] but we were around other people taking
[12:49] psychedelics a lot
[12:50] >> including things like you know an
[12:52] Iawaska circle where then me and my
[12:54] brother just like there sleeping in
[12:56] sleeping bags on the floor while the
[12:58] grown-ups are like you know losing their
[13:00] minds.
[13:01] >> How was that? That's
[13:02] >> again like you don't know that
[13:04] something's strange when you're a kid.
[13:05] It just is kind of um
[13:10] >> but and then I would say, you know, in
[13:13] our we both started experimenting with
[13:15] with drugs of all kinds when we were
[13:18] probably like 13 about and um
[13:24] you would think that that then would be
[13:26] a very open conversation with given who
[13:28] my parents were. But I think that
[13:30] teenagers have a human nature to be
[13:34] secretive.
[13:36] >> You know, it's like part of being a
[13:37] teenager is about individuating from
[13:39] your parents.
[13:40] >> And so even then we were sneaky about
[13:45] things.
[13:46] >> Um [laughter and snorts] and sometimes
[13:47] not. You know, it'd be like I'd be
[13:48] sneaky and and get, you know, take
[13:51] mushrooms for me and my friends and then
[13:53] I'd also go with my mom to a peyote
[13:55] ceremony. So both were happening.
[13:58] secrecy and openness, you know. Um,
[14:02] but but my my psych psychedelic
[14:05] preference has always been psilocybin.
[14:08] That is the one I prefer. Um, and it
[14:11] still is. And yes, it has a it plays a
[14:14] role in my life for sure. Even in the 25
[14:16] years when I sort of like checked out of
[14:18] the psychedelic scene, um, and did my
[14:22] life, built a family, built an art
[14:24] career, um, psilocybin's always kind of
[14:27] a like
[14:29] touch point of like if I if it's been
[14:32] too long since I've done mushrooms, I'm
[14:34] like, I need to check back in with that,
[14:36] >> you know?
[14:37] >> And how do you relate to everything your
[14:39] father wrote about sort of the
[14:42] mushrooms? And I'm I'm asking this also
[14:43] in a personal level. For instance, I'm
[14:45] just as a sort of a analogy um I'm
[14:48] brought up like very Christian. So for
[14:50] me the route towards psychedelics was a
[14:52] long one. I only did my when I was
[14:53] [laughter]
[14:54] >> 35 or so and
[14:56] >> it's been like shocking uh and and be
[14:59] beautiful.
[15:01] But uh I'm telling you this because I I
[15:03] long pursued sort of to the worldview my
[15:05] my father had as of like Orthodox
[15:08] Christianity uh Protestant Christianity
[15:10] and uh always felt sort of this tension
[15:13] you have your own experience of what you
[15:14] think is God and then you have the the
[15:16] view of your parents right and uh and
[15:18] exactly what you say want to keep your
[15:20] own you make it your own I'm just
[15:21] curious how that was for you because you
[15:24] are then having these experiences being
[15:26] the daughter of worldwide being
[15:28] recognized as deep psychonaut and sort
[15:31] like a guru to many people.
[15:33] >> Was it to you ah now I'm I'm getting
[15:35] what my father's writing and saying all
[15:37] or was it like different? It's like
[15:39] that's his worldview. I'm having
[15:40] different experiences on these
[15:42] substances.
[15:44] >> I think that I never really placed it
[15:48] clearly like in conversation.
[15:51] >> I like I didn't really place it as like
[15:53] disagreeing or agreeing. I sort of found
[15:58] my experiences to be very personal, you
[16:03] know, and um I think there's definitely
[16:06] like some of the values that I absorbed
[16:09] from his and my mom's perspective, you
[16:12] know, like for example, some years ago
[16:15] when micro doing started to become
[16:17] popular and everyone's talking about
[16:19] their micro doing regime and whatnot, um
[16:22] I was like, [sighs and gasps]
[16:24] you know, And I realized, oh right, I
[16:26] very much absorbed the like five grams
[16:28] in silent darkness. Like this is this is
[16:30] my my lineage. Um I like big doses. But
[16:35] but there are also ways in which like
[16:37] the content of those experiences was
[16:41] my own. And also, you know, I think
[16:43] people assume that I like listened to
[16:47] all of his
[16:49] talks, which I
[16:53] I absorbed his ideology through osmosis,
[16:56] but not because I was like reading all
[16:58] of his books or listening to his talks.
[17:00] I was a kid, you know, he he died when I
[17:02] was 19. M so and then I did you know in
[17:05] the couple of years after he died I read
[17:07] several of his books and of course I
[17:09] attended many of his lectures when he
[17:11] was alive but from that point onward I
[17:13] didn't listen to a lecture of his for 20
[17:15] years
[17:16] >> because why would I you know
[17:18] >> um until more recently so
[17:23] >> I don't know I think part also another
[17:26] part that I have absorbed in a way that
[17:28] is his idea but that has also held me
[17:31] separate from it is that he really
[17:33] believed in the value of of individual
[17:36] lived experience
[17:38] >> and sort of in like never letting there
[17:41] be a middleman.
[17:42] >> Mhm.
[17:44] >> In lots of parts of life and I absorbed
[17:46] that. So I don't ever participate in
[17:48] anything organized, you know, I just do
[17:51] things my way and um in terms of like
[17:55] anything spiritual or psychedelic and um
[18:00] so that in a way is following in his
[18:02] footsteps, but it also means I also
[18:04] don't let him be the middleman for my
[18:06] experience, you know, if that makes
[18:08] >> Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah,
[18:09] it's sort of it's being it's sort of
[18:11] practicing what he told and that means
[18:13] also not taking him as sort of the
[18:15] serious too seriously. And when you said
[18:17] sort of his ideology indeed I think
[18:20] >> what to me made your father such a
[18:23] beautiful
[18:25] person is that he he really tried sort
[18:27] of go to the other edge in these
[18:30] experiences and then to be critical to
[18:32] be to to to to try and be rational about
[18:35] it first. bring it back, think about it,
[18:38] link it with everything he he knew and
[18:40] he read like crazy.
[18:42] >> But it is sort of this way of
[18:44] intellectualizing it in a sense and
[18:46] bringing it in the rigor of science. And
[18:47] I think that's has been has been his
[18:48] legacy and has been tremendously
[18:50] important in the psychedelic world and
[18:52] bridging those worlds.
[18:55] Um but also it can be sort of some how
[18:58] do I say this sort of a a a disconnect
[19:00] between that direct experience and of
[19:02] course trying to intellectualize it
[19:03] because he ended up with like big
[19:05] theories also.
[19:07] >> Yes. Yes.
[19:07] >> That yes can be scrutinized I mean if
[19:11] you go through an irrationally. So how
[19:13] do you see that sort of that
[19:14] >> but but they were theories that were
[19:16] dependent on lived experience which like
[19:19] one of the things that's striking to me
[19:21] now being here at this conference is
[19:24] that everything is data driven
[19:26] >> you know which is so different than the
[19:29] psychedelic culture I was raised in. Um
[19:31] it was much more you know there was no
[19:34] data so how could you depend on data
[19:38] >> um you had to just depend on on
[19:40] philosophy basically you know and and
[19:42] and lived experience and so
[19:46] >> for his time maybe he it seemed like he
[19:49] was trying to take these ideas and
[19:51] filter them through some kind of
[19:52] legitimizing scientific perspective but
[19:55] I I don't think that's really what was
[19:57] happening. I I mean he was not a
[19:59] scientist. he was not a doctor, you
[20:01] know, um he was really more of a
[20:04] philosopher who was informed by all of
[20:06] these fields.
[20:08] >> But now listening to these lectures
[20:10] here, um you know, these people are
[20:14] really really
[20:16] >> into the data
[20:18] >> and so so it's it's a very different
[20:20] approach.
[20:21] >> Yeah, it is. And your father was also of
[20:23] course an artist, right? In a sense.
[20:26] >> I I think so. I mean when I look at it
[20:28] now I see his work I experience his work
[20:30] as art partly because
[20:33] [clears throat]
[20:35] that taking that perspective to it
[20:37] allows me to enjoy it without picking it
[20:41] apart you know um
[20:45] also I'm an artist and I've spent my
[20:47] whole life looking at art and it's how I
[20:50] the strategy I know for engaging with
[20:53] something outside of me is to look at it
[20:55] as art and to
[20:58] not try to judge it based on like, well,
[21:00] is this factual? Do all the factors line
[21:03] up? Is it is he being consistent? Is he
[21:07] saying the same thing in this talk as
[21:08] this talk? You know, because I get
[21:10] questions like this from people like,
[21:11] well, in this one talk in 1984, he said
[21:13] this, but then in ' 91 he said this. So,
[21:15] what do you think he believed? I'm like,
[21:17] I don't know. Like,
[21:18] >> it's to me this is not important at all.
[21:21] Um, and that is again very like him, you
[21:23] know. He he used to say always don't let
[21:25] the truth get in the way of a good
[21:27] story. So I I guess [laughter]
[21:29] >> I like that. I like that. I can also see
[21:31] like it's verbal art only listening to
[21:33] McKenna talks if you've had especially
[21:35] if you had your first psychedelic
[21:36] experience. It's just
[21:38] >> a word of art what he does. You know he
[21:40] plays with the experience and he he
[21:42] links it to everything. But you
[21:44] shouldn't take it all literal literal of
[21:46] making these links as you say. But it is
[21:48] funny that a lot of people did do that
[21:50] in the archive you you presented here.
[21:52] For instance, you have these funny notes
[21:54] in the archive of people asking your
[21:56] father, "What did the mushrooms say we
[21:58] should do about Bush?" about George
[22:00] Bush, [laughter]
[22:01] >> like this guru, what like like this
[22:03] oracle.
[22:03] >> Well, and people all the also even the
[22:05] criticism of him as a public figure is
[22:08] that he, you know, advocated for drug
[22:10] use in a way that was unsafe, not
[22:12] everyone can handle five grams, these
[22:14] kinds of things. And to me, I'm like,
[22:16] well,
[22:18] >> again, he's not a doctor. He's not your
[22:20] doctor. He's not prescribing it. And if
[22:21] you're the kind of person who's taking
[22:23] advice from strangers online, you need
[22:25] to question your own intellect, you
[22:28] know, like that is not it is not
[22:30] instructions for life. In my opinion, it
[22:33] is a combination of philosophy,
[22:37] literature,
[22:39] um, you know, because of his way with
[22:41] language and performance.
[22:43] >> And the whole identity, the whole
[22:44] persona of him was a a a performance
[22:48] that he crafted, you know, and so the
[22:51] way I evaluate that is
[22:55] does it make me feel something? like
[22:58] when I listen to his talks or see him
[23:00] see a video of him talking
[23:02] >> do I feel moved by it either like it's
[23:06] expanding my mind or my heart and if I
[23:08] do then that's good art and that's the
[23:10] measure
[23:11] >> and I don't I I'm not that concerned
[23:13] beyond that kind of it I don't know yeah
[23:16] >> I like what you're saying that he played
[23:17] these roles also when you uh I found
[23:21] that emotional to to read how you spoke
[23:23] about an art project you did and I think
[23:25] it was your first step into this work of
[23:27] archiving the legacy of your father.
[23:30] After his death, he he left you a as a
[23:33] legacy a box with 2,000 butterflies,
[23:35] right, that he had collected early on in
[23:37] his career in the 60s and 70s, I think a
[23:39] lot in Asia. Um, you unpacked those,
[23:42] went through them, and photographed them
[23:45] in a book called The Butterfly Hunter.
[23:47] It's a beautiful book and I've only I
[23:50] haven't ordered the real book, but I've
[23:51] seen the pictures online and we see
[23:54] these butterflies on the the scraps of
[23:56] newspapers that he wrapped them in. So,
[23:58] you get these butterflies with tax about
[24:00] Reagan and sort of the politics of the
[24:02] day with the butterflies.
[24:04] >> I found it a beautiful art project.
[24:06] >> Thank you. [clears throat]
[24:07] >> And also how you spoke about it because
[24:09] it was to you this combination of
[24:11] processes, right? On the one hand, you
[24:13] were just archiving it and making art,
[24:16] but it was also mourning your father's
[24:18] death as you spoke about it. Could you
[24:20] tell us about that that process and what
[24:21] it meant me meant for you?
[24:23] >> Yeah. So, he died in 2000 and it was
[24:27] messy around his death. there were a lot
[24:29] of people involved who were sort of like
[24:31] vultures and um
[24:34] >> by the time he died we sort of checked
[24:38] out like we I think both my brother and
[24:40] I were just like we want out of this
[24:42] scene and um
[24:45] and then went on with our lives and yes
[24:47] I inherited this large trunk like a
[24:50] steamer trunk um filled with butterflies
[24:53] that had not been spread. I also
[24:55] inherited some drawers of ones he had
[24:58] spread and mounted.
[25:00] >> Um, but this trunk was filled with ones
[25:03] that were just wrapped, like you said,
[25:05] in whichever paper he had available to
[25:07] him while traveling. So, travel
[25:10] documents, typewriter pages with his
[25:12] writing on it, um, American news
[25:15] magazines, foreign newspapers, things
[25:17] cut out, you know, because you fold them
[25:18] into this triangle to fit the butterfly
[25:20] inside, folded flat. And uh
[25:26] in 2008 was when I did that project. So
[25:29] it was 8 years after he died. And
[25:31] because of the sort of mess around the
[25:34] time when he died, there had not really
[25:36] been a proper like family memorial.
[25:39] There had not really been a proper
[25:41] mourning process.
[25:42] >> Um which I see as as a failure now. I
[25:45] would do it very differently. But um I
[25:48] think yes that doing that project eight
[25:50] years later was a way of processing and
[25:54] mourning and [snorts]
[25:57] >> you know and it was very poignant
[25:58] because you're also dealing with the
[26:00] actual you know all these little dead
[26:02] physical bodies of the insects
[26:04] >> and
[26:06] >> they are fragile you know and they're
[26:08] crumbling in your hands kind of and um
[26:12] >> and they smell very strong of
[26:14] formaldahhide and mothball balls, you
[26:16] know, because he had packed that in the
[26:18] in the
[26:19] >> trunk.
[26:20] >> And so the smell I found would give me a
[26:23] headache if I did it for more than an
[26:25] hour. So I sort of had a daily I was in
[26:27] graduate school at the time in art
[26:29] school and I had a ritual where every
[26:31] morning around 10:00 a.m. The light was
[26:34] just right in my studio for
[26:36] photographing them for about an hour.
[26:39] >> And I could only handle the smell for
[26:41] about an hour. And so there I would do
[26:43] an hour of going through them, unfolding
[26:46] them, choosing which ones to photograph,
[26:48] photographing them, putting them all
[26:50] away. And it took several months of
[26:52] doing this. And it it was very much a
[26:55] morning ritual. And I'm I'm glad that I
[26:57] had that as an option, you know,
[26:59] >> and then thinking about it, writing
[27:00] about it, and ultimately I made an
[27:02] exhibition and then a book.
[27:04] >> Um,
[27:06] >> but yeah, it was helpful. You know, I
[27:08] think in general for me, art making, and
[27:12] often you only see this in retrospect,
[27:14] but art making is often um
[27:19] especially [clears throat] well,
[27:19] especially if you're someone who works
[27:20] in like projects and works in different
[27:23] mediums. Often you come up with an idea
[27:26] that you think is an idea to make a
[27:28] certain kind of art.
[27:29] >> Yeah.
[27:30] >> Right. Like, oh, I have this idea. It's
[27:32] going to look like this. But then once
[27:33] you go through the process of making it,
[27:35] you realize that in fact it was a
[27:37] prescription for a certain kind of
[27:38] action that you needed to take and the
[27:41] thing that you made is not what's as
[27:43] important as the experience you had
[27:45] making it. And in a way you're like
[27:47] self-prescribing what you need when you
[27:49] get these ideas, you know. So I very
[27:51] much see that project as that. It was an
[27:53] idea that
[27:54] >> that demanded I do a a ritual that
[27:57] needed doing.
[27:58] >> Yeah.
[27:58] >> Kind of. And it's a beautiful way of
[28:01] looking at things and it it reminds me
[28:03] of two things sort of like earlier on
[28:05] when we were talking about will like the
[28:07] will in nature. is like something deep
[28:09] that you need to do then as sort of a
[28:11] will. But that's just an association I
[28:13] have with with what we but but getting
[28:15] back to sort of the the metaphor of the
[28:18] butterfly hunter
[28:19] >> in your presentation there's this
[28:21] beautiful photo of your father standing
[28:23] in the midst of the jungle with a giant
[28:25] butterfly net
[28:27] >> and this image of catching butterflies.
[28:31] I mean that to me is sort of like a
[28:33] metaphor for for his life in a sense.
[28:35] Would you go along there? And of Because
[28:37] you're chasing something alive and but
[28:39] once you capture it, you know, if you
[28:41] want to really study it, you cannot, you
[28:43] know, you have to kill it. Yeah.
[28:45] >> Yes. And you know, he only did he only
[28:48] collected butterflies for four years,
[28:50] 1968 to 1972.
[28:53] And he became
[28:55] very
[28:57] >> [clears throat]
[28:57] >> um bothered by it and ultimately stopped
[29:01] doing it because he felt guilty. He felt
[29:04] both kind of squeamish, I think, and
[29:07] kind of guilty about it. And uh so later
[29:11] when my mom my mom and him met in 1975
[29:14] and she said there were a couple of
[29:16] times where they'd be somewhere exotic
[29:18] where he thought, "Oh my gosh, they're
[29:20] going to this kind of butterfly lives
[29:21] here and he like once or twice maybe in
[29:24] 1976 they were in the Amazon again. He
[29:27] caught one and then she said he said
[29:29] that's it. That was the last one. I'm
[29:31] not doing I'm never doing this again." M
[29:33] >> um because he sort of tapped back into
[29:35] that feeling of guilt about it. So it's
[29:38] interesting to me like it is can be seen
[29:40] as a metaphor but it also I think was a
[29:42] an ethical or a process of understanding
[29:45] his own ethics that he had to go through
[29:47] kind of.
[29:48] >> Um
[29:51] >> yes it's a it's a very poignant thing to
[29:53] do.
[29:54] >> Yeah indeed. and sort of the the the
[29:56] getting back to sort of the you telling
[29:59] about your early childhood and this
[30:00] deeply notion that that everything
[30:02] around us is alive and has a will and we
[30:04] can can can sort of we have to we have
[30:06] to relate to that and we participate in
[30:08] that. And a big question at this
[30:10] conference to many people is is um is
[30:13] sort of the the the psychedelic state
[30:16] and sort of the philos philosophical
[30:18] term is then sort of
[30:20] looking at the epistemics of you know is
[30:22] it does it give us true knowledge? Mhm.
[30:24] >> Of course, in the thinking of your
[30:26] father, I'd say that. So, how to is that
[30:29] to you personally when thinking about
[30:31] these sort of psychedelic states
[30:34] >> for my experience?
[30:35] >> Yeah.
[30:37] >> Um, yes. I I
[30:40] it does. I don't The word knowledge to
[30:43] me sometimes feels like
[30:46] it is about learning new information,
[30:50] which is not necessarily how it feels
[30:52] with psychedelics. For me, it feels a
[30:54] little more like understanding.
[30:57] >> It's more like things that are already
[30:59] there, knowledge that is maybe already
[31:01] in me somewhere, but I don't have access
[31:03] to, it reconnects me to it, you know,
[31:07] >> and so, but yes, absolutely. which is
[31:11] why I feel like I have to check in with
[31:12] that periodically is because it's and he
[31:16] talks about this a bit about like how do
[31:18] you hold on to the insights that you
[31:20] grasp in moments on psychedelics? How do
[31:24] you hold how do you bring that into your
[31:25] down life, [snorts]
[31:27] >> right? And I find that it works for a
[31:30] while
[31:31] >> and then it sort of like peters out and
[31:34] like this world takes over again and
[31:37] then I have to check back in to bring
[31:38] that back otherwise I I lose touch with
[31:41] it, you know.
[31:42] >> Um
[31:45] >> yeah.
[31:45] >> Yes. But I think that like my
[31:47] relationship to nature in particular and
[31:49] in into the way the relationship to
[31:52] nature question which I think
[31:54] psychedelics very much connect you to um
[31:59] it's not really like we say relationship
[32:01] to nature but it's not really about my
[32:03] relationship to nature. It's more about
[32:05] seeing how
[32:07] how everything is connected, but also
[32:09] how everything happening in nature, even
[32:12] in like the most mundane little pocket
[32:15] of it in your city park, is a sort of um
[32:19] allegory for human emotional experience.
[32:22] M.
[32:23] >> And so there's a way where like
[32:25] sometimes I can see in looking at a an
[32:30] area like a a glenn of trees and moss
[32:33] and leaves that are rotting and things
[32:35] that are climbing and eating something,
[32:37] you know, I can see all the problems and
[32:40] processes in my own life like reflected
[32:43] back to me and all the solutions in the
[32:45] sense of like, oh, this is how nature
[32:48] does death and and trauma and repair and
[32:52] community and all the things that are
[32:54] the major factors in human lives, you
[32:57] can find them in a kind of microcosm.
[32:59] >> Yeah.
[32:59] >> You know,
[33:00] >> yeah.
[33:01] >> In the biography on your father, strange
[33:03] attractor, there's this what is called a
[33:05] moment when your parents, they regularly
[33:08] sort of had sort of psychedelic retreats
[33:11] with the two of them. And one of them is
[33:14] described as sort of a trip of terror. I
[33:17] think in the 80s when they were coming
[33:19] on on psilocybin
[33:21] um high dose and um a thunderstorm
[33:24] started.
[33:25] >> Mhm.
[33:26] >> And how it's described is that that
[33:28] became one of the most difficult
[33:30] experiences for your father on
[33:32] psychedelics whereas your mother was
[33:34] difficult for her as well but she sort
[33:35] of managed
[33:36] >> and afterwards your father had sort of
[33:38] difficulty in sort of having to
[33:40] acknowledge that he couldn't handle that
[33:42] trip in a sense. And when you just spoke
[33:46] about sort of integration, to what
[33:48] degree was your father, I mean so much
[33:51] of the journeys that he undertook on
[33:53] psychics, to what degree was he able to
[33:55] integrate? Um because this to me was a
[33:58] story that your mother seemed more sort
[34:00] of like whole in sort of having the
[34:03] psychics and and as a person, but this
[34:05] is just how I read the read the book.
[34:08] >> Um
[34:10] >> well, the first thing I would say like I
[34:12] wasn't there. Yes. Sorry. Yeah.
[34:14] >> And also neither was anyone else who's
[34:17] recounted any of this. So like Graham
[34:19] >> who wrote the book like this is Graham's
[34:21] version.
[34:22] >> I check.
[34:22] >> Um I would guess that Graham's version
[34:25] comes mostly from Dennis's version, but
[34:27] Dennis also wasn't there.
[34:30] >> So let's just be conscious that like
[34:32] every every biography, every story is
[34:35] one person's version of a story.
[34:36] >> So maybe just leave it as an anecdote
[34:38] then.
[34:39] >> Yes. What I can say is I mean yes I
[34:42] agree with you that my dad had a bad
[34:44] trip and you know as one does sometimes
[34:47] when you do a lot of psychedelics and uh
[34:51] >> and I'm sure just knowing his
[34:52] personality that the fact that my mom
[34:54] weathered that better than him was hard
[34:56] for him to accept because you know ego.
[34:59] Um [sighs]
[35:01] >> however the sort of like myth that he
[35:04] never did psychedelics again is not true
[35:07] based on my experience. Um, and I don't
[35:10] know why that's such a thing out there,
[35:12] but um,
[35:16] >> yeah, and that's all I really know about
[35:18] it. And the only other thing I know
[35:19] about it really is that I know that my
[35:21] mom
[35:23] >> has been very irritated by other
[35:26] people's accounts of it
[35:27] >> and she was there. So, I trust her more
[35:30] than anyone else, you know.
[35:31] >> Yeah. And the role sort of that was
[35:34] projected on him. I mean, that must have
[35:36] been difficult for him as well, right?
[35:37] because you you are this sort of
[35:39] traveler and you get these stories and
[35:41] then you get all the projections of the
[35:42] psychedelic community
[35:44] >> and um you have to be someone and of
[35:48] course it was also his his his living
[35:50] sort of did you see during the 80s that
[35:52] that started to weigh on him or
[35:55] >> not during the 80s? No. I feel like 1989
[35:59] like this late 80s he was in his like
[36:01] intellectual [snorts]
[36:04] peak of he was he had figured out his
[36:07] public persona. He had it had calcified
[36:11] into like who he was and he um
[36:16] h was getting a lot of energy from his
[36:19] audience in the way that performers do
[36:21] where there's this kind of feedback. You
[36:23] know
[36:23] >> by the early 90s though I think by like
[36:26] 94 you know he was in a different stage.
[36:29] my parents had split up. That was hard
[36:31] on everyone, you know, and by the
[36:34] [clears throat] mid '9s, I think he was
[36:38] um a little bit disillusioned with his
[36:42] own role. And part of that part of that
[36:44] is just like professional burnout, you
[36:47] know, right? We all are like, what am I
[36:48] really doing? Like, you know, at a
[36:50] certain point. And then I also think
[36:52] like when I hear people sort of like
[36:54] critique that
[36:56] him maybe like slowing down a bit.
[37:00] >> I also think like you know I'm 45 now
[37:02] and I'm like well yeah
[37:05] >> like when you're partying in your 20s
[37:07] and 30s and then you're middle-aged like
[37:10] of course you want to like retreat a
[37:12] little. He wanted to live in Hawaii. He
[37:14] wanted to not travel as much. He was
[37:16] getting a little older. And then the
[37:17] other thing is we don't know in the, you
[37:20] know, latter half of the 90s, we don't
[37:22] know how long his brain cancer was like
[37:24] affecting him before we knew it was
[37:26] there. So there's some talks of his in
[37:28] the late '9s
[37:30] >> that to me, I think it was already
[37:32] affecting him. The way his voice sounds
[37:35] to me is sounds a little different
[37:37] >> than before. Like maybe there was
[37:39] something already going on, you know?
[37:42] >> Um, but I don't know that. I mean,
[37:44] that's just my intuition. But yeah, I
[37:46] mean, I think let's like it's okay to
[37:48] not go like pedal to the metal full
[37:51] blast for every moment of your life.
[37:53] >> Agree. And I love these pictures of the
[37:55] home he built in Hawaii with the big
[37:57] antenna. I was like,
[37:58] >> yes. He was trying to build a sort of
[38:00] like rural nest, but that could be like
[38:04] a a an antenna to the rest of the world.
[38:06] >> Yeah. And he wanted to connect. I'm just
[38:08] so so curious what your father would
[38:11] just ma think of what the world has
[38:14] become with the internet etc. in that
[38:15] sense his ideas and where we have now
[38:18] become I think
[38:19] >> and in your opinion people having these
[38:20] experiences on how to sort of
[38:22] communicate them because often it's sad
[38:24] these states are ineffable right and we
[38:26] cannot communicate of course your father
[38:27] did it in words you do it in art and
[38:29] writing as well but I I find it funny to
[38:33] hear you being annoyed about psychedelic
[38:36] art and a lot of the psychedelic art we
[38:38] see could you tell us just about
[38:39] [laughter] your critique on that
[38:41] >> at the risk of offending people Um,
[38:46] so there's two different things. There's
[38:47] there's there's visionary art,
[38:50] >> right,
[38:50] >> which
[38:52] I tend to not love. That doesn't mean
[38:55] there's not some great work in there,
[38:57] but and then there's just like more
[38:59] broadly the aesthetics of the
[39:01] psychedelic scene.
[39:03] >> And this lands differently here because
[39:06] the psychedelic scene in Europe is very
[39:07] different than in the West Coast of
[39:09] America. And that's the one I know. So,
[39:12] but in in my opinion, it has
[39:16] unfortunately
[39:18] held very tightly to a particular
[39:21] aesthetic and has not let that aesthetic
[39:24] evolve over the last 30 years. Like
[39:30] that kind of trippy acid color,
[39:32] everything feels weird kind of look.
[39:35] >> Fractal DMT entities
[39:37] >> and like the way Yes, exactly. that was
[39:40] that became sort of a thing in the '9s
[39:43] and I feel like was very drawing from
[39:46] the ' 70s heavily drawing from rock
[39:48] posters and this kind of hippie '7s
[39:51] aesthetic
[39:52] >> and then it and then and then they just
[39:55] held on to it. They just kept
[39:57] regurgitating the same thing for so long
[40:01] and then AI walked in and was like, "Oh,
[40:04] and now we'll just like turn up the
[40:05] volume on this and produce it really
[40:08] fast without evolving the aesthetic, you
[40:11] know." And so I just feel like
[40:14] until very recently anyways, the sort of
[40:16] like pop culture psychedelic aesthetic
[40:20] of marketing of um these websites,
[40:24] posters, events, all of this has been
[40:28] very unfortunate and it has expressed
[40:30] itself a lot in videos with my dad's
[40:33] voice. [laughter] And so when you look
[40:35] up Terrence McKenna, if you're if you
[40:38] don't know about him, what you encounter
[40:39] is YouTube videos of him talking with
[40:42] this kind of aesthetic, just like hodge
[40:44] podge poured over it. [snorts]
[40:47] And
[40:50] that is
[40:52] careless because it as a visual artist,
[40:56] I'm like what I'm looking at while I'm
[40:59] hearing these words really matters.
[41:01] It matters because the ideas are
[41:03] informed by it and vice versa. But it
[41:05] also matters because visual cues tell us
[41:08] whether something is for us or not,
[41:11] whether we identify with it or not.
[41:13] That's what marketing is, you know. And
[41:15] so
[41:17] if I weren't Terrence McKenna's daughter
[41:19] and someone said, "Oh, I listened to
[41:21] this amazing lecture. You should you
[41:22] should listen to it." And sent me a link
[41:23] and it was someone I trusted.
[41:26] Within 10 seconds of play pressing play,
[41:28] I would be like, "Oh, this isn't for
[41:30] me." because of the visual aesthetic,
[41:31] not because of the content of the words,
[41:34] right? I would go, "Oh, this is this I
[41:36] know who this is for and it's not me. I
[41:37] don't fit that mold, you know?" And so
[41:39] to me, that presents a barrier to entry
[41:41] to the intellectual ideas. And I see
[41:44] part of my job as stewarding his legacy
[41:47] now as,
[41:49] you know, I'm not going to undo any of
[41:51] that. Internet culture does what it
[41:52] does. I'm not trying to contain it. But
[41:54] I want to offer a counterpoint and offer
[41:57] his ideas with a different visual
[41:59] packaging that lets a different kind of
[42:02] person engage and that maybe
[42:05] acknowledges that um
[42:08] what we think looks psychedelic can mean
[42:11] many different things to different
[42:12] people and that that that singular
[42:14] aesthetic doesn't have to be it. You
[42:16] know, the flip side of that though that
[42:19] I have to mention so that it's clear I'm
[42:21] not going in this direction is that in
[42:24] this recent boom of like interest in
[42:26] psychedelics, pharmaceutical companies,
[42:28] therapies, all of this, um there's this
[42:31] other version of of the new psychedelic
[42:33] aesthetic that's like corporate
[42:35] whitewashing, you know, where you with
[42:37] these websites look like they're selling
[42:39] health insurance or something. And I
[42:41] think that's also a risk and another way
[42:44] that the underground is being visually
[42:47] erased kind of in this moment. So that's
[42:50] not a good direction either. We have to
[42:52] find another way or a multitude of ways.
[42:54] I mean that's the other thing like if
[42:56] your psychedelic experience is as
[42:58] individual as you are, then shouldn't
[43:00] there be many different aesthetics to
[43:01] represent this? you know, so I' I've
[43:04] read what you write about the Luxura um
[43:06] um archive you're working on and and it
[43:09] says there that um um as a generation
[43:12] passes the torch of psychedelics and we
[43:15] move from um the shadows into mainstream
[43:18] culture, science and medicine, the
[43:19] wisdom and stories of the counterculture
[43:21] will fade into the past. So that's what
[43:24] you try to keep alive.
[43:26] >> [snorts]
[43:26] >> um for people who maybe even didn't have
[43:29] a psychedelic experience, what would you
[43:31] say is a good entry point into the Lux
[43:34] Natura archive and what would you say if
[43:38] if one thing to our listeners is sort of
[43:41] like a key message that that's that
[43:43] speaks from the archive and I know this
[43:44] is a big question but maybe just the
[43:47] first feeling you have or the first
[43:49] thing that comes to mind. a key entry
[43:51] point to the archive is to be honest not
[43:54] yet available because we're still
[43:56] building it and so we're still in the
[43:58] stage of processing all this material.
[44:00] It's not yet being fully like shared
[44:03] with the public. Um but it will be and
[44:05] that will happen via both it will go to
[44:08] an institution where it's available for
[44:10] research but also we're making a
[44:14] whole range of um collaborations and
[44:18] publications that will pull from it. The
[44:21] first one, so this is an easy entry
[44:23] point, will be a podcast that's going to
[44:25] start um probably at the end of
[44:27] summertime. Uh that will
[44:31] use audio from
[44:34] the audio collection in the archive. So,
[44:36] some of it will be well-known talks and
[44:39] others will be material that's never
[44:41] been heard before, including lots of
[44:43] very kind of intimate recordings like
[44:46] things like um field recordings in the
[44:50] Amazon or conversations recorded in our
[44:52] living room. And then we're kind of
[44:55] activating that material, editing it in
[44:57] with more well-known material.
[44:59] >> So, that will be our first like big
[45:00] public thing. And then another thing
[45:02] that's coming that some sector of his
[45:05] fans will love is um a new album being
[45:09] released in the fall with uh Spacetime
[45:11] Continuum. He released they released
[45:13] Alien Dream Time together, you know, in
[45:15] the '90s. And this was a there was
[45:18] another concert besides Alien Dream
[45:20] Dream Time which they performed together
[45:22] on Halloween in 93 and that one was
[45:25] never released anywhere. So Jonah Sharp,
[45:28] who is the musician behind Spacetime
[45:31] Continuum, um lives in San Francisco
[45:33] also. And so we've been working together
[45:34] to release that as an album.
[45:36] >> Nice. And and when things become
[45:38] available, we will we can add them to
[45:40] the links in the description to his
[45:41] video so people can can find it.
[45:43] >> Yeah. Oh, but you asked also about like
[45:45] a message. Yeah,
[45:47] >> I I really
[45:48] >> may I share you just to see where we get
[45:50] maybe get at because thinking from our
[45:53] foundation essencia foundation is about
[45:55] idealism and non-duality and that in the
[45:58] end it's most plausible to think of the
[46:00] world as mental as as will as you just
[46:02] uh said it and in the archive in your
[46:06] presentation you have this quote from
[46:07] your father I want to say it right so
[46:09] look it up um
[46:13] um and I love this one when I stand up
[46:16] in the forest, I feel as though I'm
[46:18] standing in a library that's on fire.
[46:21] >> Yes. And I found that in his notes in a
[46:23] in a you know notepad. So I don't know
[46:26] if he ever included that in a lecture or
[46:28] not. I think it's such a beautiful idea
[46:31] because we usually think of the
[46:34] ecological and the planetary crisis we
[46:37] find ourselves in as sort of just that
[46:39] the resources and the ground of our
[46:41] existence is sort of now of course
[46:42] endangered but not of it as a world of
[46:45] ideas
[46:47] >> um um that that could help us and and
[46:49] and overlap with who we are. And just
[46:53] this notion to see a library, to see
[46:55] nature as a library, that to me is like
[46:57] astonishing and so representative of of
[46:59] your father's thinking and Yes. So I
[47:01] love that.
[47:01] >> I agree. I agree. Okay, I'll take that.
[47:04] [laughter]
[47:05] >> Okay.
[47:07] >> Thank you.
[47:08] >> Yeah, Clea, thank you so much for your
[47:10] your your wonderful um openhearted uh
[47:14] sharing of sort of who your father was
[47:17] to you, your art, and this whole
[47:19] reflection on the Lux Natura. I find it
[47:21] just a beautiful sort of play of things
[47:23] that you're working on and u thank you
[47:26] for your insightful questions too.
[47:28] >> Oh, thank you. And uh we will put uh
[47:30] links below in the description and we
[47:32] will share of course links to the Lux
[47:34] Nura archive um and when new things
[47:37] become available we'll update those
[47:39] links and a full presentation of Clea
[47:42] that she gave here at the ICPR
[47:44] conference. Thank you so much for
[47:46] watching and thanks again Clea.
[47:47] >> Thank you.
[47:53] Welcome to the talk archival revival ter
[47:56] McKenna's life and work seen through the
[47:58] Luke's Natura archive. As you may
[48:01] already know by now, you can come front
[48:03] for questions in the end of the talk.
[48:06] Now introducing the speaker, Clea
[48:08] McKenna is a visual artist and writer.
[48:10] She is a 2023 Guggenheim fellow and is
[48:13] known for cameraless photography and her
[48:15] innovative use of light sensitive
[48:17] materials. In early 2024, Clea became
[48:20] the manager of Luke Natura, a family
[48:23] partnership founded in 1977
[48:26] by her parents Kathleen Harrison and
[48:28] Terrence McKenna, which now stewards her
[48:31] father's legacy and is building an
[48:32] archive of his life and work. So, please
[48:36] give a warm welcome to Clea McKenna.
[48:41] [applause]
[48:43] >> Thank you.
[48:46] Thank you to Open Foundation for
[48:48] inviting me and also thank you to
[48:51] Nostromo Foundation who gave us a
[48:53] generous grant to launch this Lux
[48:56] Notoria archive
[48:58] and I'm Cle McKenna. Um, as she said,
[49:01] I'm primarily a visual artist. I live in
[49:04] San Francisco.
[49:06] I am also a working mom with two kids
[49:09] and I feel like a very unlikely person
[49:12] to be presenting at this conference. But
[49:14] in addition to those roles, I'm also the
[49:17] daughter of Kathleen Harrison and
[49:18] Terrence McKenna, who you may know one
[49:20] or both. Um,
[49:24] this is my artwork in the San Francisco
[49:27] Museum of Modern Art a few years ago.
[49:33] So, as you can likely imagine, Terrence
[49:37] was a complicated character to have as a
[49:40] father and cast a long shadow. And um he
[49:45] was warm and charming and charismatic
[49:49] and also mercurial and relatively
[49:53] unreliable as a parent. and um he
[49:57] delighted in,
[49:59] you know, telling us wild stories and
[50:04] fantasies and whatnot, but then he also
[50:06] would disappear into his own mind and be
[50:08] kind of completely unavailable. And I
[50:10] think if you look at the history of art
[50:12] or literature or politics, it's very
[50:14] very rare for um for someone who is a
[50:19] brilliant mind to also make a brilliant
[50:21] parent or partner. So that comes as no
[50:24] surprise. Uh let's see.
[50:27] The thing that I understand now in terms
[50:30] of my upbringing is that for people like
[50:33] my parents and also people like me, our
[50:36] inner life is often as interesting or
[50:41] more interesting than the outer world.
[50:43] And so it kind of creates this tension
[50:46] between your inner and your outer. And
[50:48] that is a conflict with the you know
[50:51] daily necessities of parenting. So I
[50:53] feel that now in my life and it gives me
[50:56] a lot of sympathy for my parents'
[50:58] shortcomings.
[51:00] Um my dad
[51:03] died when I was 19 26 years ago and when
[51:09] he did I needed to just like step away
[51:12] and do my own life and do my own you
[51:15] know find my own people my own
[51:17] community. So, I did that and I I built
[51:19] a career. I built a family. I found my
[51:22] community within the art world. And
[51:24] really only in the last two years, I've
[51:26] sort of had a big like midlife swerve
[51:29] back towards my roots.
[51:32] And so, I realized that took me a long
[51:33] time. And for those of you who have been
[51:35] waiting with baited breath for like new
[51:36] Terrence McKenna material, thank you for
[51:38] your patience. [laughter]
[51:41] Only a quarter century later. Um, so
[51:43] these are my parents, brighteyed and
[51:45] bushy tailed. And they founded Lux
[51:48] Notori in 1976. And its first role, it
[51:52] sort of has acted as just an umbrella
[51:54] for whatever it was that they wanted to
[51:56] be doing, but its first job was to sell
[52:00] psilocybin spore prints via mail order.
[52:03] So they would put these little tiny ads
[52:06] in the back of magazines and you know
[52:08] flyers at events and send out score
[52:11] prints. Over the years it did other
[52:14] things. It also became a small press and
[52:16] published some of their early book
[52:18] projects and all throughout my mom did
[52:22] all the illustrations and the art and
[52:23] the editing. So you can see here some of
[52:25] those examples.
[52:28] So back then, Luxur had many purposes
[52:31] and one of its purposes was to gather
[52:35] information about their community to try
[52:38] to kind of understand who were
[52:40] psychedelic people and help create or
[52:43] find that community.
[52:46] So this is a questionnaire that they
[52:49] sent out and gave out at events in the
[52:52] years between like I think 1982 to 85.
[52:55] They used this questionnaire. Don't
[52:57] worry, I'm going to read you some of it
[52:58] if it's too small to see. Um, this could
[53:01] be called folk research, kind of how
[53:04] communities construct meaning, gather
[53:07] data, and self-document outside of the
[53:10] official framework of, you know,
[53:11] institutions and those kinds of things.
[53:14] I think it's particularly interesting to
[53:16] consider this in this context that we're
[53:18] currently in of a conference on
[53:21] psychedelic research that is now you
[53:24] know much of it um
[53:29] government sanctioned institutionally
[53:31] funded and every one of those forces
[53:35] affects what is researched and what
[53:36] shape that research takes just like the
[53:39] absence of that structure affects that
[53:41] as well. And so what did psychedelic
[53:45] research look like in the absence of
[53:47] those kinds of structures of both
[53:49] support and regulation? And instead in
[53:52] the presence of taboo and secrecy and
[53:54] everpresent risk.
[53:57] So these are a few of the questions on
[53:59] the questionnaire. I'll read them to
[54:00] you. Describe the settings in which you
[54:03] have taken mushrooms. Were you in
[54:05] darkness alone? What are your thoughts
[54:07] on the role mushroom consciousness might
[54:09] play in the future? Have you cultivated
[54:12] magic mushrooms? Yes or no?
[54:15] Approximately how many dried grams per
[54:17] jar have you produced? Very specific.
[54:20] [laughter]
[54:21] And this is my favorite question. Do you
[54:23] own a micro computer? If you do and
[54:26] would like to be part of a mycelial
[54:28] computer network, please send a separate
[54:30] postcard marked computer with your name
[54:34] and address, type, and memory size of
[54:36] your computer. You will be contacted.
[54:41] So, I asked my mom recently what was
[54:44] their goal with this questionnaire, and
[54:46] she said, "Well, we were trying to find
[54:48] our people." And I was like, "Oh,
[54:50] right." And she said, "We were trying to
[54:51] find psychedelic people, but also people
[54:53] who were thinking about the future." And
[54:55] so, it's almost as though they were
[54:57] imagining the connectivity of the
[54:59] internet and the way it might help them
[55:01] find community before it existed. But
[55:04] what I like to imagine is a flood of
[55:08] postcards. the most analog form of
[55:10] communication there is moving through
[55:12] the United States Postal Service that
[55:14] just says computer on it and the kind of
[55:18] like mystery that might create. Um, and
[55:22] so we did receive a lot of these
[55:24] questionnaires and postcards in response
[55:26] and unfortunately they have either been
[55:28] lost to time or just I haven't found
[55:30] them yet.
[55:34] Another example of what independent
[55:36] psychedelic research looked like 50
[55:38] years ago is Terren's journal entry from
[55:41] 1977.
[55:43] And you know, at this time it basically
[55:45] looked like individuals experimenting
[55:47] often on themselves,
[55:49] recording that in one way or another,
[55:51] doing it again and again, and then
[55:53] sharing notes with friends and trying to
[55:55] understand, you know, what these
[55:57] phenomena mean. Um, I'm going to play a
[56:02] recording that is basically of Terrence.
[56:05] He made this recording. He was by
[56:07] himself in Hawaii. He was camping on our
[56:09] land there before we built a house. And
[56:12] he was taking mushrooms and
[56:14] experimenting with glossalia.
[56:17] And he
[56:19] had this experience recorded during it
[56:21] and then the next day wrote about it in
[56:23] his journal. So this this journal
[56:25] transcription refers to the the recorded
[56:28] evening and I'll just play a moment of
[56:30] it. Don't get too excited.
[56:35] >> We're talking to McKenna.
[56:39] >> I am taking 7 g of stfaria.
[56:47] I have decided to do seven grams because
[56:51] five grams was apparently insufficient
[56:55] two days ago.
[56:57] And uh if there's anything like
[57:01] tolerance, it would seem that a higher
[57:04] dose is indicated. And also uh perhaps
[57:09] five grams of this strain is uh simply
[57:12] not sufficient for what I'm trying to
[57:14] do.
[57:26] I'm what?
[57:31] This is chibberish.
[57:34] SL
[57:38] [laughter]
[57:57] [laughter]
[57:59] didn't
[58:01] delh
[58:04] My how dead
[58:06] flow didn't hurt me.
[58:09] >> Okay, that's enough of that. [laughter]
[58:12] Okay,
[58:18] so Lux Notori has evolved over the years
[58:21] and sort of went dormant for some
[58:23] decades. And when I took it over a year
[58:25] and a half ago,
[58:29] we took it on with this role of being
[58:32] the stewards of Terren's legacy of his
[58:34] original work, his intellectual
[58:36] property, and also building this
[58:38] archive. And that's really like the
[58:40] heart of it.
[58:42] So when I began this work, there really
[58:44] was no archive. It wasn't that it
[58:46] existed and I, you know, took it on. It
[58:48] didn't really exist. But there were
[58:50] multiple generations of people who never
[58:53] get rid of things. And so I began by
[58:55] going to family storage units and in
[58:58] both California and Hawaii, reaching out
[59:00] to close friends, to family members, to
[59:03] colleagues he collaborated with, to
[59:05] institutions that he taught at and
[59:07] seeing what they have and then compiling
[59:10] it. Um,
[59:13] Eselin Institute contributed 50 hours of
[59:16] video footage from the 80s. Librarian
[59:18] Chris Maize contributed his collection
[59:20] of periodicals featuring Terrence. And
[59:23] my mom had saved all the illustrations
[59:25] and mock-ups and ephemera from their
[59:27] projects together during their 17-year
[59:29] marriage. And then I had inherited all
[59:32] of his journals and papers and
[59:34] correspondents.
[59:37] So what does this archive contain and
[59:39] what does this process look like? Here's
[59:42] a very kind of broad strokes version of
[59:45] the categories that are in the archive
[59:47] and the types of material that we're
[59:48] processing. Within each category, we
[59:52] gather as much as we can. We inventory
[59:55] it. We give each item numbers and do all
[59:58] these a lot of spreadsheets. And then we
[1:00:01] identify the gaps in that inventory and
[1:00:03] go out and try to find those things when
[1:00:06] possible. And then we scan and digitize.
[1:00:10] And along the way, we're publicizing
[1:00:12] this project through things like doing
[1:00:14] talks and social media. And the reason
[1:00:17] for that is that it seems to elicit new
[1:00:21] material. So people hear about it and
[1:00:23] then reach out and say, "Oh, I have this
[1:00:25] thing from 82." And, you know,
[1:00:26] contribute it. And so it makes the
[1:00:29] archive both more complete and more
[1:00:31] collective.
[1:00:34] This is my studio in San Francisco,
[1:00:36] which has become archiving headquarters.
[1:00:38] Um,
[1:00:41] the team on this is basically me and
[1:00:44] Kelly Eisworth with the black hair here.
[1:00:47] And then we have a whole slew of
[1:00:49] volunteers who come to do specific jobs
[1:00:52] like digitization
[1:00:54] and adding metadata and sorting things
[1:00:57] by date. We also, this is my mom,
[1:01:00] Kathleen on the right, on the left,
[1:01:02] right, whatever. Um, who uh swoops in
[1:01:06] every once in a while to answer
[1:01:08] questions like weird audio tapes that
[1:01:10] have no labels? Can you identify them?
[1:01:12] Things, mysteries. Um,
[1:01:17] yeah. And the way that I'm I'm operating
[1:01:20] this project, the process I'm using, and
[1:01:22] particularly the way I'm working with
[1:01:24] others and volunteers is really guided
[1:01:27] by advice I've gotten from other
[1:01:30] parallel projects. Both the Ann and
[1:01:32] Sasha Schulan archive and the Alan Watts
[1:01:35] Foundation have been advising me on kind
[1:01:38] of how to engage people, how to work
[1:01:40] with them in a way that is both useful
[1:01:42] and efficient for the archive as well as
[1:01:45] like engaging and enriching for the
[1:01:47] community. So I'm grateful to their
[1:01:49] advice.
[1:01:51] We also work with a crew of remote
[1:01:54] volunteers who are all over the US and
[1:01:57] they transcribe his handwritten material
[1:02:00] via an online platform.
[1:02:03] So this is again a page from his
[1:02:05] journal. You can see his handwriting can
[1:02:07] be challenging especially for younger
[1:02:09] people who are not comfortable with
[1:02:11] cursive. Um and you might ask why aren't
[1:02:15] we using AI to do this? And the reason
[1:02:17] why is that we like working with humans
[1:02:20] and we find that they um contribute
[1:02:24] something beyond actually the
[1:02:25] translation. They contribute their
[1:02:27] insights, their experiences. They
[1:02:29] actually end up getting involved in
[1:02:32] unexpected ways. And so it's another way
[1:02:34] to make this a connective process.
[1:02:38] Okay. So this collection is both
[1:02:40] physical and digital. And the long-term
[1:02:42] goal is to find it a home in an
[1:02:45] institutional archive where it will be
[1:02:47] professionally preserved
[1:02:50] and become part of a kind of more
[1:02:52] permanent or you know whatever is
[1:02:54] permanent um historical record and be
[1:02:57] available to the public for
[1:02:59] interpretation for research for
[1:03:01] collaboration.
[1:03:03] So why that why rely on an institution?
[1:03:06] Um, I come from the art world and it has
[1:03:10] been my experience that art history is
[1:03:13] written through museum permanent
[1:03:15] collections. If you get your work into a
[1:03:17] museum permanent collection, no one can
[1:03:19] undo that. You are now part of the story
[1:03:21] of art history. And I think that in
[1:03:23] parallel archives operate that way for
[1:03:26] you know a more broader definition of
[1:03:28] history. And you know 100 years from
[1:03:30] now, 400 years from now, the history
[1:03:33] that will be told will be the one that
[1:03:36] is I mean is evidenced in
[1:03:40] archives that have survived have
[1:03:42] survived climate change, rising sea
[1:03:44] levels, political upheaval, and you know
[1:03:46] short-sighted personal decisions. So
[1:03:49] that's my goal also because I would like
[1:03:51] to pass this on and go back to making
[1:03:53] art. [laughter]
[1:03:56] So,
[1:03:57] so as I meet with curators and
[1:03:59] archivists at major institutions in the
[1:04:01] US, which I've done a lot of over the
[1:04:03] last year, um
[1:04:06] I'm hearing from them that we're in this
[1:04:09] unique moment where,
[1:04:13] you know, institutions are are funded by
[1:04:17] governments and corporations. And so
[1:04:19] therefore, what they collect tells the
[1:04:21] story that those entities want told. And
[1:04:24] because of that, because of the taboo
[1:04:26] nature of psychedelics, there is a very
[1:04:28] large gap in the archival record and it
[1:04:30] is the shape of 20th century psychedelic
[1:04:34] underground. Basically, that just hasn't
[1:04:36] been collected. And now, as there's this
[1:04:40] whole thing happening with psychedelics
[1:04:42] and they're sort of coming into the
[1:04:43] mainstream, it is retroactively
[1:04:45] legitimizing that history. So what once
[1:04:48] may have seemed sort of like fringy and
[1:04:50] crazy now seems like the history of a
[1:04:52] legitimate mainstream cultural phenomena
[1:04:55] and therefore they're willing to collect
[1:04:56] it. So that shift
[1:04:59] coincidentally maybe is happening at the
[1:05:03] same time as a generational changing of
[1:05:06] the guard from the baby boomers to you
[1:05:08] know all the rest of us. And
[1:05:12] you know my dad died very young. He died
[1:05:15] when he was 53, but his peers are 80
[1:05:18] now. He would be 80 if he were alive.
[1:05:20] And so they're dying off very quickly.
[1:05:22] And I'm seeing that in real time. I'm
[1:05:24] sure you all are, too. So I really feel
[1:05:27] like this presents an opportunity
[1:05:30] to both gather knowledge and try to
[1:05:35] facilitate a kind of um
[1:05:38] intergenerational transfer of knowledge
[1:05:40] and also get those stories into the
[1:05:42] permanent record.
[1:05:44] So that's kind of the big picture goal
[1:05:48] here.
[1:05:55] Thank you. [laughter] Sorry, I just need
[1:05:57] to make sure I didn't like skip
[1:05:58] something entirely. Okay.
[1:06:01] Okay. So now, wait, did it switch? Yes.
[1:06:05] Okay. So now I'm going to show you some
[1:06:07] highlights from the archive. This is one
[1:06:10] of my personal favorites that many of
[1:06:12] you have probably seen. These are the
[1:06:14] photographs of Sarah Hartley.
[1:06:16] Sarah was a friend of Terren's from UC
[1:06:18] Berkeley and in late 1970 when he and
[1:06:21] his crew were planning their you know
[1:06:24] adventure to the Amazon, Sarah sort of
[1:06:26] jumped on board and selfassigned
[1:06:30] the role of expedition photographer and
[1:06:33] she had some experience as a
[1:06:34] photographer on um archaeological digs.
[1:06:37] So she brought that, she went with them.
[1:06:41] She brought a twin lens, medium format
[1:06:45] camera and a 35mm SLR. And the result of
[1:06:49] that is that for the last, you know,
[1:06:52] 40ome, 50, whatever it was, years, we've
[1:06:55] had this series of about 10 really
[1:06:57] beautiful black and white prints. This
[1:06:59] being sort of the the hero of them, um,
[1:07:03] that she shot
[1:07:07] And I I'm giving you a closeup because I
[1:07:10] think this photo is kind of
[1:07:11] extraordinary with the level of
[1:07:13] botanical texture and detail in it. And
[1:07:16] at this time, you know, Terrence
[1:07:18] operated as a butterfly hunter from the
[1:07:21] years 1968 to 1972. this was a way of
[1:07:25] making a living but also um but also
[1:07:29] kind of a cover like a way of explaining
[1:07:32] what the hell he was doing in these
[1:07:34] places being himself, you know. So, it
[1:07:36] was his story. It sort of legitimized
[1:07:38] him, but it was also his living and it
[1:07:41] was also a way to cosplay being a
[1:07:44] Victorian explorer which he had been
[1:07:46] obsessed with since he was like a little
[1:07:48] kid.
[1:07:51] This is another one. This is the whole
[1:07:53] crew in Lerera. Terrence and Dennis are
[1:07:55] in the middle and the fellow at the far
[1:07:57] end has a little monkey in his lap and
[1:08:01] Sarah had the forethought here to set up
[1:08:04] the tripod and then go and get in the
[1:08:06] picture. So that's her on the left. So
[1:08:08] this is the whole band al together.
[1:08:13] These are more of them. I'm really
[1:08:15] eternally grateful to her for um for
[1:08:19] going on that journey and
[1:08:22] being such a good photographer
[1:08:24] [laughter] because this has been the
[1:08:26] only visual evidence we've had of the
[1:08:28] this moment in his life that became so
[1:08:30] pivotal to both his personal life and
[1:08:33] his philosophy.
[1:08:36] She was also kind of the voice of
[1:08:39] reason. And if you've read True
[1:08:40] Hallucinations, her character was named
[1:08:42] Vanessa, so you'll know what I mean. And
[1:08:44] again, like they may not have made it
[1:08:46] out of there alive had she not been with
[1:08:48] them because she really was the most she
[1:08:50] had her head screwed on. Um, okay. So,
[1:08:53] what we have found in doing the
[1:08:54] archiving that we didn't have before is
[1:08:56] we found contact sheets and we haven't
[1:08:58] found the negatives, but we found
[1:09:01] contact sheets and they provide
[1:09:03] narrative and context. This is a sheet
[1:09:06] from in the weeks before they went to
[1:09:08] Loera preparing for the expedition and
[1:09:10] passing through Periera Colombia.
[1:09:13] This is on the Rio Pamo.
[1:09:18] And in some cases, if the quality was
[1:09:20] good enough, we've been able to zoom in
[1:09:22] on the little contact sheets and, you
[1:09:24] know, do these high-res scans so that we
[1:09:26] can see images that were never printed
[1:09:28] and kind of um restore those. So, this
[1:09:32] is one as well from that.
[1:09:35] And if you'll notice on the lower right,
[1:09:37] there's this half of this boy's face,
[1:09:40] which I just love. And to me, this sort
[1:09:42] of sings of magical realism.
[1:09:46] So last month, I spent a day with Sarah.
[1:09:49] She is still alive. And um I spent a day
[1:09:51] at her house interviewing her, recording
[1:09:54] her stories, and going through these
[1:09:56] materials. And this is really one of the
[1:09:58] best parts of this whole job is getting
[1:10:00] to go beyond the actual material in the
[1:10:02] archive and find, you know, the
[1:10:05] characters and the stories connected to
[1:10:07] it and the parts that um like little
[1:10:10] putting pieces back into a puzzle.
[1:10:14] Okay. Another place where I've been able
[1:10:16] to do that kind of outreach and find
[1:10:18] material to add is in the
[1:10:21] correspondence. So we have hundreds
[1:10:22] maybe thousands of letters and
[1:10:26] the thing about letters is that you only
[1:10:28] have half the conversation generally
[1:10:30] right and it's the half not written by
[1:10:32] the person you're studying. So
[1:10:36] when we have a lot of letters from
[1:10:38] someone we try to find them or their
[1:10:41] heirs and see if by any chance some of
[1:10:43] Terren's letters to them survived. So
[1:10:46] one place where that was successful was
[1:10:48] Luis Eduardo Luna who many of you
[1:10:50] probably know. He's a renowned Iawaska
[1:10:52] researcher and ethnobbotonist. We have
[1:10:55] about 112 letters between the two of
[1:10:58] them back and forth and we've been able
[1:11:00] to sequence those and kind of see this
[1:11:02] arc of their relationship. They met in
[1:11:05] Colombia in 1972 and um
[1:11:10] and their their relationship affected
[1:11:12] both of their trajectories and Eduardo
[1:11:15] says that still.
[1:11:17] So
[1:11:19] this is a letter from 1973
[1:11:22] and you can kind of see the uh the way
[1:11:25] that they share ideas and also a sense
[1:11:27] of kind of a brotherly bond.
[1:11:31] Believe me, I s this is from Terrence to
[1:11:33] Eduardo. Believe me, I sympathize with
[1:11:35] your hunger for knowledge and I too look
[1:11:37] back at the life we knew at Villa
[1:11:39] Gloria. But don't worry, old friend.
[1:11:42] Reading all the mystics was very good
[1:11:43] for me because they insisted that there
[1:11:45] was a transcendent reality capable of
[1:11:47] being encountered. For years, they and
[1:11:49] their metaphors were the compass of our
[1:11:51] quest. When, however, we finally did
[1:11:53] encounter the mystery, we found that it
[1:11:55] was science that was most useful in
[1:11:57] allowing us to assimilate the contents
[1:11:59] of the mystery. My reading over the past
[1:12:01] couple years has centered on the worth
[1:12:03] of science. And I have wandered somewhat
[1:12:05] from the consensus of the pop mystics
[1:12:07] because I guess that we discovered that
[1:12:09] we ourselves, if we truly wish the world
[1:12:11] to take us seriously, we must give our
[1:12:13] theory the intellectual rigor that is
[1:12:16] only associated with the scientific
[1:12:17] theory.
[1:12:19] I'm not sure they totally achieved that,
[1:12:20] but they [laughter] tried.
[1:12:22] Okay. So, in the interest of time,
[1:12:24] unfortunately, I'm going to skip over
[1:12:26] this section, but these are letters from
[1:12:28] Terrence between Terrence and his
[1:12:29] mother. Um, which was a really beautiful
[1:12:32] and surprising relationship. Uh, I'll
[1:12:34] just the shortest version is just that,
[1:12:37] [sighs]
[1:12:38] [gasps] you know, she was a housewife in
[1:12:40] Colorado, a smart and educated one, but,
[1:12:43] you know, small town, and he was in
[1:12:45] Berkeley experimenting and doing all
[1:12:48] kinds of crazy things. and they he hid
[1:12:51] nothing from her. He was very open and
[1:12:54] candid. She really made a a true effort
[1:12:57] to sort of open her mind to his ideas
[1:12:59] and keep up and um and it's just
[1:13:02] beautiful to see. And then also these
[1:13:05] are postcards he sent her during the two
[1:13:08] years when
[1:13:10] he was ex exiled. He always called it uh
[1:13:13] he there was a there was a hash bust and
[1:13:15] he then there was a warrant out for a
[1:13:17] hash smuggling bust. there was a warrant
[1:13:18] out for his arrest and he couldn't
[1:13:19] re-enter the US and during those two
[1:13:22] years while he was living abroad she got
[1:13:24] breast cancer and died and he didn't
[1:13:27] make it back in time to say goodbye to
[1:13:29] her and this was a kind of wound that he
[1:13:31] carried his whole life it was a very a
[1:13:33] heartbreak for him um but you can see
[1:13:36] this is a transcription of the last of
[1:13:38] this series of postcards
[1:13:41] and you can see that he I'll let you
[1:13:43] guys read it to yourselves but you can
[1:13:44] see that he is
[1:13:47] trying to find connection between his
[1:13:49] kind of burgeoning worldview and her,
[1:13:52] you know, Irish Catholic
[1:13:56] perspective on dying.
[1:14:06] Okay.
[1:14:07] So, one of the things that is often said
[1:14:09] of Terrence is that he is hard to
[1:14:11] categorize,
[1:14:13] right? Is he a philosopher, a scholar,
[1:14:15] an ethnobbotonist, an entertainer? The
[1:14:18] term I've settled on out of convenience
[1:14:21] sort of is psychedelic philosopher, but
[1:14:23] it's not really comprehensive. I see him
[1:14:26] as a brilliant and deeply flawed man who
[1:14:30] was sort of just freef falling through
[1:14:32] life like the rest of us. and he
[1:14:36] definitely had, you know, was born with
[1:14:39] a gift for language and for creative
[1:14:41] thought and and connecting disparit
[1:14:44] ideas. And who knows where that came
[1:14:46] from. Um, but with decades of distance
[1:14:51] now re-encountering his work, I now view
[1:14:54] his work as art. And for me, that opens
[1:14:57] up
[1:14:59] the most room to appreciate it. Um, you
[1:15:03] know, I I understand it to be philosophy
[1:15:05] and literature and performance all sort
[1:15:09] of packaged into a persona that was
[1:15:11] itself a work of art. And um, like him,
[1:15:15] I've always been fairly unconcerned
[1:15:16] about truth or fact in art. He always
[1:15:19] said, you know, don't let the truth get
[1:15:21] in the way of a good story. Um,
[1:15:24] and you know when I encounter a work of
[1:15:26] art like a painting let's say I don't
[1:15:28] ask myself I don't judge it based on the
[1:15:30] criteria of like is it true is it
[1:15:33] factual or even like is it good advice I
[1:15:36] judge it on the metric of does it move
[1:15:38] me does it stretch my heart or mind and
[1:15:41] I feel like his work does and so that is
[1:15:44] my relationship to it now and I think
[1:15:47] that you know it is definitely not
[1:15:50] gospel it is not life instructions to be
[1:15:53] followed. What it is is art to be felt
[1:15:56] and considered and mold over and
[1:15:58] hopefully to incite wonder. And I think
[1:16:01] he would even back me up on that now.
[1:16:06] Okay. So, with that in mind, the next
[1:16:07] category I want to share with you is his
[1:16:09] lecture notes. Um, these are from the
[1:16:11] 80s and 90s. And I remember that during
[1:16:14] those years, he always had these yellow
[1:16:16] legal pads just like all over our house,
[1:16:18] everywhere. This one on the left is
[1:16:21] about the dangers of viral ideology
[1:16:25] and in the middle somewhere in there it
[1:16:27] says how to become resistant
[1:16:29] intellectual history rules of evidence
[1:16:31] mathematics aesthetics/good
[1:16:34] taste and psychedelics and then it ends
[1:16:37] with fullbrain condom
[1:16:41] [sighs]
[1:16:42] and this one says sweating the word out
[1:16:45] of the gross materia of the animal mind.
[1:16:49] So, you can see that some of these are
[1:16:51] actually lecture notes in the sense that
[1:16:52] they're like an outline with phrases
[1:16:55] that would trigger a whole rant and
[1:16:58] others are
[1:17:00] where he's sort of working through like
[1:17:03] word combinations and ways to express an
[1:17:05] idea and you can almost see the process
[1:17:07] a little more. And then some are just
[1:17:09] pros that may or may not have like
[1:17:11] become part of something later.
[1:17:15] So this one on the left is from a talk
[1:17:17] at Chapman College and it says,
[1:17:19] "Confidence is growing. Reality isn't
[1:17:22] what it used to be. Boundary dissolution
[1:17:24] is proceeding. Distancing ourselves from
[1:17:26] nature has failed."
[1:17:29] And then the other one I love says, "The
[1:17:32] old kingdom, its glory scattered, its
[1:17:35] great tombs unattended, lies 150 years
[1:17:38] in the past. The new kingdom has yet to
[1:17:41] rise 200 years in the future. It is 2300
[1:17:44] BC. It is the pivot. When I stand in a
[1:17:47] tropical rainforest, I feel as though I
[1:17:50] am standing in a library that is on
[1:17:51] fire.
[1:17:54] So, as I go through these lecture notes,
[1:17:57] I pull out little phrases that feel
[1:18:00] extra potent. And so, these are just
[1:18:02] some excerpts from the six pages I just
[1:18:04] showed you.
[1:18:09] Okay, I want to return to our current
[1:18:11] context.
[1:18:13] a conference on psychedelic science. And
[1:18:16] notice that in the shadow of all this
[1:18:19] progress that's been made, all this
[1:18:21] scientific research and policy and
[1:18:23] legislation and the arrival of the
[1:18:26] psychedelics into the mainstream that
[1:18:29] the psychedelic underground is sort of
[1:18:32] just quietly disappearing. And as I
[1:18:35] mentioned before, I see this as a window
[1:18:39] of opportunity
[1:18:41] both to do the folk research of
[1:18:44] gathering those stories and to get them
[1:18:48] into the actual historical record now
[1:18:51] that the forces that be will suddenly
[1:18:54] embrace that.
[1:18:56] And you know, obviously the deepest and
[1:18:58] truest roots of psychedelics belong to
[1:19:01] the indigenous cultures that have held
[1:19:03] those plants and practices for millennia
[1:19:06] and that should be
[1:19:09] recorded and respected as such. And so
[1:19:13] what then does the underground mean and
[1:19:16] what is its value if it's not that?
[1:19:19] Right? The way I see it is it's the sort
[1:19:21] of bridge in between. It's the
[1:19:25] it's a layer of culture that exists
[1:19:28] beneath mainstream culture and that
[1:19:31] anything that is taboo has to pass
[1:19:34] through that under underground to come
[1:19:37] to the surface of a culture. It's sort
[1:19:39] of like the bardau of a society.
[1:19:42] And I think that
[1:19:44] living in the underground carries real
[1:19:47] risk and stigma and is in and of itself
[1:19:50] a form of resistance. And that's the
[1:19:52] world I grew up in and spent the first
[1:19:54] 20 years of my life. Um,
[1:19:59] and so I think now
[1:20:02] one of the things that we can do,
[1:20:05] and I do want to say that this hits
[1:20:07] differently in different cultures. So
[1:20:09] the the depth of the underground perhaps
[1:20:12] was different in America than in Europe
[1:20:14] because the intensity of persecution was
[1:20:17] different. you know, the Reagan's war on
[1:20:19] drugs was a was a unique situation to
[1:20:21] some degree, but um
[1:20:24] yes, but that's my perspective, the
[1:20:25] American perspective.
[1:20:27] So,
[1:20:29] I think that now is a time to to gather
[1:20:33] this information and to share it. And
[1:20:38] there seems to be in the San Francisco
[1:20:40] Bay area a sort of wave of interest in
[1:20:42] archiving the psychedelic underground.
[1:20:44] There are several efforts, some I
[1:20:46] mentioned before, like the Scholan
[1:20:47] archive. Also at UC Santa Cruz, there's
[1:20:50] now the um the Grateful Dead archive,
[1:20:53] which is massive and sprawling in its
[1:20:55] scope. Um the archive of psychedelic
[1:20:58] history, which is a digital only archive
[1:21:00] at UC Santa Cruz. And so there is this
[1:21:03] interest and myself along with these
[1:21:06] other groups have been discussing some
[1:21:08] kind of collective way to encourage the
[1:21:11] public to do this kind of folk research.
[1:21:13] you know, to to if you know a
[1:21:16] psychedelic elder to sit down with them
[1:21:18] in a quiet room with your iPhone
[1:21:20] recorder and to ask them what it means
[1:21:23] to live a psychedelic life, what it
[1:21:26] means to live in the underground, how it
[1:21:28] shaped them, how they shaped it, and
[1:21:30] what advice they might have for us.
[1:21:39] I've jumped ahead. So, this is an image
[1:21:41] taken from uh the
[1:21:45] the making of the magic the psilocybin
[1:21:47] magic mushroom growers guide. These are
[1:21:49] like how-to photos and notes written in
[1:21:51] my mom's handwriting. This was a book
[1:21:53] that my uncle Dennis and Terrence and my
[1:21:56] mom published together both in 1976 and
[1:21:59] then reissued in 1986. And this was
[1:22:02] published under fake names, but you may
[1:22:04] know the book.
[1:22:07] Okay, here's another example of how folk
[1:22:09] research shows up in the archive. This
[1:22:12] is a collection of questions from the
[1:22:15] audience at Terren's talks from the
[1:22:17] years between 1986 and 1989. So when
[1:22:21] people would arrive, they would pass out
[1:22:23] these pieces of paper and then you could
[1:22:25] ask a question and pass it up to the
[1:22:26] front. And we have a few hundred of
[1:22:28] these and it's an interesting snapshot
[1:22:29] of that era and what people were asking.
[1:22:33] Um, I'll read you a few of them.
[1:22:38] People who have a near-death experience
[1:22:40] and come back seem to share common
[1:22:41] experiences. Do people using these drugs
[1:22:44] share common experiences? And the
[1:22:46] everpresent question, how does one
[1:22:48] acquire DMT? That one gets asked a lot.
[1:22:51] Um, in order to create a psychedelic
[1:22:54] society, it seems like we need to reach
[1:22:56] out to the public at large and get a
[1:22:57] significant percentage of it to have
[1:22:59] psychedelic experiences. How do we
[1:23:01] accomplish that? And then uh could you
[1:23:04] ask the mushroom what we do about George
[1:23:06] Bush? Or have you already?
[1:23:10] So in the 40 years since these questions
[1:23:13] were written, which ones have we
[1:23:14] answered, which ones have become
[1:23:16] obsolete, and which ones are still
[1:23:18] unknown to us?
[1:23:22] And uh lastly, I want to share with you
[1:23:25] what my dad told me about death.
[1:23:28] In the last week of his life, when he
[1:23:30] was already in this kind of liinal state
[1:23:33] between the veils, he said that
[1:23:38] at the moment that we die, our genetic
[1:23:41] material splits and travels both forward
[1:23:44] and backward in time, and we become
[1:23:46] simultaneously our ancestors and our
[1:23:49] descendants.
[1:23:52] And in the 25 years since then, I have
[1:23:54] yet to encounter a better definition of
[1:23:56] death. So, I've held on to that one. And
[1:23:58] I made this photo kind of in response to
[1:24:01] that. This is a picture of Terrence's
[1:24:03] Sicilian grandmother, Teresa, his
[1:24:06] mother, Hazel, Terrence, and of course,
[1:24:09] me as the photographer or the witness,
[1:24:12] and then my six-year-old son's hand
[1:24:14] there.
[1:24:17] And that's it. Thank you. [applause]
[1:24:24] Oh.