Transcript
[0:01] I don't know when the morning drinking
[0:02] started, but that was a standard. And
[0:04] I'm just like, I'm going to die like
[0:06] this. Like, this is how I die.
[0:08] >> He's sober. He's an accomplished runner.
[0:10] He's making a positive impact on the
[0:12] world. Prepare to be inspired because
[0:15] today you're going to hear the
[0:16] experience, strength, and hope of Tommy
[0:19] Runs.
[0:19] >> 17 years old, senior year, I think it
[0:21] was. Ran out of the classroom and then
[0:24] like passed out. All of a sudden, I'm
[0:25] drinking every day for 2 weeks. That's
[0:27] like the most accelerated case of
[0:30] alcoholism I've ever heard. Well, hold
[0:32] on. You The story hasn't [laughter] even
[0:33] The story hasn't even finished yet.
[0:36] The meetings saved my life. There
[0:39] wouldn't be any running if I didn't get
[0:40] sober. I did Osaka Marathon 7 days
[0:43] before Tokyo. Six or seven marathons in
[0:46] a year. The speed project from LA to Las
[0:48] Vegas, 340 mi. How do you continue? How
[0:52] do you make that decision for yourself
[0:54] even though like everything's telling
[0:55] you to stop? So, how do you do that? Um,
[0:59] [music]
[1:03] >> all right, Tommy, before we even get
[1:05] into it, Dan over here dug into the
[1:07] archives and I want to share something
[1:09] with you.
[1:12] >> Hello, Rich Roll podcast. This is Tommy
[1:15] Runs. I think it's important to mention
[1:17] that I'm a young black guy from Detroit
[1:20] area. Went sober, then went vegan, then
[1:24] started running. and sober vegan runner
[1:27] isn't normally synonymous with like the
[1:28] black community. So, it was just so much
[1:30] different for me to be going down this
[1:32] road and I was kind of like on my own
[1:34] with it. You know, the veganism is just
[1:36] not a thing in the black community for
[1:37] real. I mean, it's getting better now
[1:39] for sure. But at the time, like I didn't
[1:41] know anybody that was vegan that's black
[1:43] or that was in my circle or even close
[1:45] to my circle. So, I was just kind of on
[1:47] my own looking for material and
[1:50] information. uh found finding ultra and
[1:53] it just spoke so much like to me. Um
[1:55] I've been in AA and went through the
[1:58] program. Love the program. Programs
[2:00] helped me so much in so many ways that I
[2:02] mean I just I feel like I'm indebted to
[2:04] those people in those rooms in those
[2:06] tables. So hearing that Rich went
[2:07] through the same process in so many
[2:09] different ways from a different side of
[2:10] the world to me. Um but then also felt
[2:13] like all the same feelings and all the
[2:15] same like just troubles, you know? It
[2:18] just made me feel at home reading the
[2:19] book. And then so I started watching the
[2:21] show and it seems like every time that I
[2:24] was trying to make a new like direction
[2:25] in my life, the podcast had a guest on
[2:29] it that was perfect for that moment,
[2:30] perfect for the past, the moments that
[2:32] just passed that I needed to get over or
[2:34] someone that was inspiring me to move on
[2:36] to the next step and kind of reach
[2:38] forward. My journey went from desperate
[2:42] to thriving with running veganism. Now I
[2:45] have a running company. I have my own
[2:47] little personal brand on Instagram. Now
[2:49] I'm working with companies. I've been
[2:51] able to interview and I have a podcast.
[2:53] I've been able to interview some of the
[2:54] people that and have ended up on your
[2:56] show as well to help people just kind of
[2:59] navigate through these things and
[3:00] through these times. I super appreciate
[3:02] how much time you spent on talking about
[3:04] the black community uh and the issues in
[3:07] 2020 that arose and came back to the
[3:09] forefront. So I appreciate you. Tommy
[3:11] runs. Thanks Rich. Namaste.
[3:15] >> So that was 2021.
[3:17] >> Yeah. So like five five six years ago um
[3:22] >> I had forgotten about that and Dan
[3:24] unearthed it and uh it was so fun to
[3:27] listen to that today you know.
[3:29] >> I happily forgot about that. [laughter]
[3:31] >> So how does that make you feel hearing
[3:33] that now like so many years down the
[3:35] line from where you were at that moment?
[3:38] Um, it makes it feel like sitting here
[3:40] feel surreal because I know how much um
[3:43] I know like what role that book and your
[3:46] podcast and the beginning of my sobriety
[3:48] in running. Um, I just I just know how
[3:52] much it all meant to me to like see
[3:54] somebody thriving and working cuz before
[3:58] sobriety, I just didn't know like what
[4:00] life was on the other side of that and
[4:02] like who I would be. So to to get into
[4:04] it and be curious about like
[4:06] self-improvement and all that stuff, um
[4:09] to catch all that, you know, catch your
[4:11] your your content and your story at that
[4:14] time. It was like a big deal for me. So
[4:16] I was really happy to be able to like
[4:17] have a moment to record my thoughts and
[4:19] like send it to you, you know, whether
[4:21] you used it or not. So it's like surreal
[4:23] for me to be sitting here. Um and I
[4:26] guess I'm proud of me then. Like it
[4:27] makes me feel kind of proud. Like it's
[4:28] kind of cringey hearing it, but it's I'm
[4:31] proud that like I'm still
[4:33] finding out like still like trying to
[4:35] find out who I am in this journey but
[4:37] then also like trying to help people
[4:39] along the way. Mhm. I'm very moved
[4:41] listening to that. Uh and knowing you uh
[4:45] now you're paying it forward like this
[4:48] is what we do, you know, this is what we
[4:50] learn in the rooms. Like you hear the
[4:52] experience, strength and hope, you put
[4:55] it into practice in your own life and
[4:56] then you
[4:58] >> turn your head around, you put your head
[4:59] on a swivel and then you pay it forward
[5:01] for somebody else. And this is just an
[5:03] example of that. And I think this
[5:04] journey that you've been on is
[5:06] >> so beautiful. You know, we first met at
[5:09] the running event. How many What year
[5:10] was that?
[5:11] >> 2021.
[5:12] >> 2021. Yeah. So, maybe it was Was that
[5:15] after before? It must have been It had
[5:17] to have been after, right? It was we
[5:18] were introduced uh by our mutual friend
[5:21] Russell Nadal. Uh shout out, Russell.
[5:23] >> Shout out Russell.
[5:23] >> Thanks for making the introduction. And
[5:26] uh I've been able to kind of watch from
[5:28] afar as you really embraced sharing your
[5:32] story uh your story of addiction and
[5:34] redemption uh and your running journey
[5:38] and it just continues to blossom and it
[5:40] feels like you're really hitting your
[5:41] stride right now and you're connecting
[5:43] with people uh you're out at all the
[5:46] races, you're creating content and
[5:48] you're inspiring all kinds of people
[5:51] particularly uh you know communities
[5:54] that are unfamiliar with this world that
[5:57] you are now like very much a part of.
[5:59] >> I appreciate that.
[6:00] >> Yeah. Uh let's do uh a little walk into
[6:04] the past. I want to take it all the way
[6:06] back to you know growing up in in in
[6:08] Detroit or just outside Detroit.
[6:10] >> Yeah. Um all right. So when I was one
[6:13] year I'm playing um
[6:15] >> it's far back. It's you know we're we're
[6:17] going to do what it was like what
[6:19] happened and what it's like now.
[6:20] >> Okay. Okay. Cool. Yeah. So, like I grew
[6:22] up um I was born in New York and um my
[6:26] mother and father separated when I was
[6:27] five. So, then we moved back to Detroit.
[6:29] My whole mom's side of the family is
[6:30] from Detroit. And like my mom was just
[6:36] like single mother kind of like from
[6:37] that point on. My dad passed away when I
[6:39] was uh 8 years old. He died of a of a
[6:42] stroke at 39 years old.
[6:44] >> Um
[6:45] >> and you're 41 now.
[6:47] >> About to be 42 now. To be 42. Yeah. So
[6:49] like the my 39th [clears throat]
[6:50] year was like I was my I was in my head
[6:52] so crazy, you know.
[6:54] >> By the way, you look like you're like
[6:55] 26. It's crazy. You're like ageless.
[6:58] It's insane.
[6:59] >> I heard some like some some saying like
[7:00] black don't crack or whatever. But I
[7:02] grew up without him, you know, and my
[7:05] mom did such a great job of like really
[7:08] hustling and trying to make everything
[7:10] work for me and my sister, you know,
[7:12] like and it was really
[7:16] like a great place to be, you know, to
[7:19] grow up because there was just so much
[7:20] diversity in some of those schools. But
[7:22] at the same time, like I felt lost, you
[7:27] know, like, and I'm not sure if it was,
[7:29] you know, probably because my dad passed
[7:30] and I didn't have like I'm the third, so
[7:32] I have the same name as him, you know,
[7:34] and I just always was like trying to
[7:36] chase this or thought of chasing this
[7:38] person that I didn't really know that
[7:40] like people spoke so highly of like it
[7:42] wasn't like, oh, your dad was cool or
[7:44] whatever. It's like the people that
[7:45] talked about him, it it made me feel um
[7:48] like I could never be that. your kid
[7:51] growing up, confused, uh, not feeling
[7:55] great about yourself, like what was your
[7:58] kind of journey through like junior high
[8:01] school and the early years of high
[8:02] school? Like, who are you hanging out
[8:03] with? Like, what kind of kids? Like,
[8:04] where did you fit in?
[8:06] >> I was not like the cool kids and I
[8:09] wasn't like like
[8:10] >> That's crazy cuz you're so [ __ ] cool.
[8:12] >> It took a long time. I was like, I need
[8:14] some fashion advice, but go ahead.
[8:16] >> You're doing good. You're doing good. I
[8:17] like this. I like this whole look.
[8:18] >> Yeah, I thought a lot about this. I was
[8:20] like, Tommy's coming in. I got to like I
[8:22] got to I got to take this seriously now.
[8:24] >> One thing I wish I could do is grow a
[8:25] beard. And you know, every time you grow
[8:27] >> I saw your video about that. You It'll
[8:29] Well, yeah. I guess Well, I guess you're
[8:31] 40 [laughter] years old. You about to
[8:33] gaslight my beard is going to come in.
[8:35] >> For those that don't know, like you can
[8:36] see it on Tommy's Instagram. He did a
[8:38] video where where he's like, "I wish I
[8:40] could grow a beard." So, you had AI. You
[8:41] had AI lock you up with a beard. And I
[8:44] was like, "Oh, you look like Denzel
[8:46] Washington's son and tenant." Like, it's
[8:47] pretty badass. Yeah. Like it it looked
[8:49] pretty good. Yeah. So you're like I'm
[8:51] going to go to Turkey and get
[8:52] >> hair transplants on my face.
[8:54] >> I'm traumatized at this point now.
[8:56] >> But like you got so much on top of your
[8:57] head.
[8:58] >> Yeah.
[8:58] >> Going on, you know? You get one or the
[9:00] other. I think,
[9:02] >> you know,
[9:02] >> I guess I guess [laughter]
[9:04] I feel like there's people with both,
[9:05] but whatever. You know, um
[9:07] >> we can't have everything.
[9:08] >> No, you really can't. Um but yeah. So
[9:11] like I don't even know. What was the
[9:12] question?
[9:13] >> I don't know either. Uh what you weren't
[9:15] with the cool kids. Who were you? Who
[9:17] who was your hang?
[9:18] >> Yeah. So like I was kind of like I was I
[9:20] was like in the middle like I was trying
[9:22] to I was like kind of watching the cool
[9:23] kids do their cool kid good things you
[9:25] know like cuz we just didn't have like
[9:27] you know the school I grew up in cool
[9:29] meant you had the all the nice stuff you
[9:31] know you had all the you had the iceberg
[9:33] you know sweaters and the whatever jeans
[9:36] um and that was the vibe and and if you
[9:39] didn't have that you were just kind of
[9:40] like had to watch it happen. So, like I
[9:42] was friends with all of them, but I was
[9:44] just like on the outside because I just
[9:45] wasn't that cool, you know, like to them
[9:47] because of like what I wore.
[9:49] >> But I was always everybody knew me, I
[9:50] knew them, and I just felt like I was
[9:52] just kind of meandering through this
[9:54] like, you know, middle school, high
[9:56] school experience. It was like watching
[9:58] what I wanted to be, which like just
[10:01] kind of like tore me up a bit because
[10:03] like I was friends with all of them, but
[10:05] I just wasn't I didn't feel like I was
[10:07] okay or cool enough to come like walk to
[10:09] like the you know the heaters that they
[10:10] used to sit on like in the hallway in
[10:12] the school, you know, and it was it was
[10:16] like strange, but I've always had like a
[10:19] few friends. I've never been the person
[10:21] that had like 20 friends at a time,
[10:23] which is kind of counter like what I was
[10:25] what I wanted. But I wanted all of them
[10:26] to be my friend. But in reality, like
[10:29] I'm the type of person that has like
[10:30] two, three friends that I rock with and
[10:33] hopefully till like death do us part
[10:35] type of vibe. And so like middle school
[10:38] and high school was like a weird thing
[10:41] for me. Like I was I wasn't great at
[10:43] school. I didn't like homework. I could
[10:46] pass any test that you give me. Um just
[10:49] because I was in the class like I could
[10:50] figure it out on the test day. But I
[10:52] never [snorts] really like applied
[10:54] myself like just ever um at that point.
[10:57] And maybe it was cuz I was trying to not
[11:00] look like I was trying hard.
[11:02] >> Mhm.
[11:02] >> But it just left me in this like limbo
[11:04] of like are we trying to do this life or
[11:06] not? And if if I can't be as cool as
[11:08] them, then maybe I don't want to try. Um
[11:10] but I started golfing in like 8th grade
[11:14] or something like that, which was
[11:15] definitely also different at that time,
[11:17] but that was like the Tiger Woods era,
[11:19] so it was okay enough. But that kind of
[11:22] gave me some like purpose through
[11:23] through high school, which was like make
[11:25] sure my grades were good enough to cont
[11:27] to play. And I was like pretty decent,
[11:30] but I was also still pretty short at
[11:32] that point. And so it just didn't allow
[11:34] me to like like flourish in the way that
[11:36] I thought I wanted to. But it kind of
[11:37] gave me purpose to kind of connect those
[11:39] years of making sure I didn't like flunk
[11:41] out of school. Um so
[11:43] >> so no track and field, no cross country,
[11:46] basketball, no running,
[11:48] >> golf.
[11:48] >> Yeah. Like so like all the sports that I
[11:50] played were just all like neighborhood
[11:51] stuff. Like we had a bunch of kids in
[11:53] our neighborhood and we used to play
[11:54] every sport like possible. If somebody
[11:55] watched a movie about football, we're
[11:57] playing football the next day for sure.
[11:59] >> But so I've always been athletic, but I
[12:01] I never I didn't play any like high
[12:03] school um sports except for on the golf
[12:05] team.
[12:06] >> So when does drinking enter the picture?
[12:09] >> Drinking enters um in the hallway. Um 17
[12:13] years old, senior year I think it was.
[12:15] Um, and my friend brought like these
[12:18] little nips, you know, little bottles.
[12:20] Uh, he like got them from his mom or
[12:22] something like that or stole them from
[12:23] his mom. And he's like, "You want some?"
[12:26] And I'm like, "Sure." So, the first
[12:27] drink I took, it was like all of a
[12:30] sudden I didn't care about what I
[12:33] thought everybody else thought. It was
[12:35] like the moment of like fake clarity,
[12:38] like, "Oh my god, I can I don't care
[12:40] anymore. I can be myself." And then once
[12:43] people start realizing I was drinking
[12:44] cuz then I just went from those couple
[12:46] little nips to like trying to find out
[12:48] like next day like how can I drink more
[12:49] of this stuff? Do you have more? And
[12:51] then I found out ways to try to get some
[12:53] of my own. So I went from not drinking
[12:55] at all really um having a family of in
[12:58] my dad's side of the family is a
[12:59] drinking family. Um or at least that's
[13:02] what my my my view of it um to like all
[13:06] of a sudden I'm drinking every day for 2
[13:08] weeks
[13:09] >> just like that. just like a light switch
[13:11] got flicked.
[13:11] >> Yeah. Like it was like I mean it was
[13:13] like fast friends like I need tomorrow
[13:16] like or today. I need this like now like
[13:18] cuz if I can walk into school and not
[13:20] like think that everybody's looking at
[13:21] me weird cuz or whatever then that's
[13:24] what I want. And
[13:25] >> did it go [clears throat] immediately to
[13:27] drinking like before going into school
[13:29] like in the morning?
[13:30] >> I was just looking forward to after.
[13:33] >> No no it was in school. Wow.
[13:34] >> It was cuz I needed it in school in my
[13:36] head. Yeah. like right away. Like, so
[13:38] that's like the most accelerated case of
[13:40] alcoholism I think I've ever heard.
[13:42] >> Well, hold on. You the story hasn't even
[13:44] the story hasn't even finished yet. So,
[13:47] like two weeks into the drinking thing.
[13:49] Um, this is the first time I've said
[13:51] this uh on on microphone before. So,
[13:54] this is funny. Um, so the first into two
[13:56] two weeks into drinking, there was a pep
[13:57] rally day and I had gotten whatever
[14:01] liquor that I thought I needed or
[14:02] whatever. And I drank so much cuz like
[14:07] even in that first two weeks, people
[14:08] realized like I had a drink on me. So
[14:10] they would be like wanting the drinks.
[14:11] All the cool kids, oh, let me take a
[14:12] sip. Let me take a sip. So like then all
[14:14] of a sudden I needed to have extra, you
[14:16] know? And then so I'm drinking
[14:18] throughout this whole day, this pep
[14:19] rally day. It's only a half day. By the
[14:22] time like before the pep rally, it was
[14:23] only like two hours into school. Like I
[14:26] wake up and I'm on the floor in the
[14:29] bathroom,
[14:31] passed out with my mom, my principal,
[14:35] and like the security layers on like
[14:37] standing over me cuz I had like ran out
[14:39] of the classroom and then like passed
[14:41] out. And that was two weeks into my
[14:45] alcoholic like journey.
[14:47] >> Wow, that's wild. Like I tell that like
[14:50] cuz it's probably my mom's probably like
[14:51] you did not have to tell that story. But
[14:53] it's just like it just that just shows
[14:54] like how powerful like alcoholism
[14:56] alcoholism is because like in any other
[14:59] scenario that happens to you that fast
[15:02] into this thing you're scared straight.
[15:04] You scared away like I I can't obviously
[15:06] that's not for me. I can't handle it.
[15:08] >> But what I did was like slowly like okay
[15:10] well if I can't drink liquor right away
[15:12] cuz I just can't even smell it cuz it's
[15:14] just too it just sends me off. Maybe
[15:16] I'll just drink some beer. like as I got
[15:18] back into it. So, I like slowly like
[15:19] weaned myself back into it because I
[15:21] just needed to have like that feeling
[15:22] again.
[15:23] >> Uh yeah, a normal person would be
[15:25] appalled and say, "Yeah, no more of that
[15:28] for me." But the reason that it happened
[15:30] is because you're not that guy. Like
[15:32] from the first drink, you're like,
[15:33] >> "Oh, this is the solution to all my
[15:35] problems. This just makes me finally
[15:37] feel comfortable in my own skin."
[15:39] >> And you begin to realize like how
[15:41] uncomfortable you've been all along. as
[15:43] if all the cool kids had this operating
[15:46] manual for life and they're all walking
[15:48] around feeling great about themselves
[15:49] and and now you've discovered this
[15:52] elixir of life that allows you to feel
[15:54] the way that you assume everyone else
[15:56] feels all the time.
[15:57] >> Yeah, it was a cure to to like the pain
[15:59] that I felt like I was going through
[16:01] every single day.
[16:03] >> And that's the thing that gets missed, I
[16:05] think, too often in discussions around
[16:08] alcoholism and recovery. Like it works.
[16:11] >> That's why you're doing it. you know, it
[16:13] is a solution to a problem. It's not the
[16:16] problem.
[16:17] >> The problem is, you know, you feeling
[16:20] uncomfortable in your own skin and why
[16:22] that's the case, right? And until you
[16:24] heal that or find a solution for that,
[16:27] >> uh, you're going to continue to drink.
[16:29] >> Yeah.
[16:33] >> This episode is brought to you by Whoop.
[16:36] To celebrate turning 60 in a handful of
[16:38] weeks, I am planning to guide a disabled
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[16:58] need to check my ego to prevent it from
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[17:07] is where Whoop becomes my essential
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[17:26] So each day's decision gets made from
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[17:32] from insecurity or anxiety. Push today,
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[17:37] trust the process. Getting to that start
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[17:42] for me and whoop is how I protect it.
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[18:02] I spent a lot of time on this show
[18:04] encouraging you to chase experiences
[18:06] that actually light you up. Careers, of
[18:08] course, but also hobbies and other
[18:11] pursuits that could turn into revenue
[18:13] generators [music]
[18:14] and even careers like a coaching
[18:16] practice or the creative thing you've
[18:18] always pushed off until later. But if
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[19:22] That's such a extreme kind of episode
[19:26] where, you know, even a young person is
[19:28] going to know immediately like, oh, this
[19:30] is like like my my thing with this
[19:33] drinking is different than
[19:35] my classmates.
[19:37] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not that you're going
[19:38] to do anything about it. But you're like
[19:40] you you make a mental note of it.
[19:41] >> I knew I was an alcoholic
[19:42] >> and like you don't want to be the guy
[19:43] who's passing out. So you realize like I
[19:45] got to reel it in, but I got to find a
[19:47] way to be able to continue doing this.
[19:49] >> Yeah. Like you have to it's like okay
[19:50] lesson learned instead of you know
[19:52] lesson learned. Here's how I can do this
[19:53] better, you know, and be I don't want to
[19:55] be that extreme cuz that's that's
[19:57] abnormal as well. I'm not going to fit
[19:58] into the cool kids if I'm laying in the
[20:00] bathroom floor. But how do I like how do
[20:02] I weave this into my life in a way that
[20:04] can allow me to be functional? And I
[20:06] think that like the functional
[20:07] alcoholic, the term that's the most
[20:09] dangerous
[20:11] term that is thrown around like in
[20:13] society to me because that's the issue
[20:16] cuz you if you're if you have a job, if
[20:18] you're moving forward, if you're going
[20:19] to school, doing the things, you're
[20:20] you're not on the side of the road, you
[20:23] know, drunk all the all day. You feel
[20:25] like you're normal in some way. And then
[20:27] you it just lets you just pass time and
[20:30] continue to just like make these
[20:32] decisions or tear your life apart or
[20:33] tear your health apart as you
[20:34] >> Well, the word functional is the wrong
[20:36] word. Like you're operating
[20:38] dysfunctionally. Yeah.
[20:39] >> But you're not so dysfunctional uh that
[20:42] anybody is going to kind of force you to
[20:44] stop doing what you're doing. You can
[20:46] get by, but you're operating at like
[20:48] such a suboptimal level in
[20:51] >> think you're crushing it. You really
[20:53] think you're
[20:53] >> Well, that's part of the denial and the
[20:54] delusion. Like nobody knows what I'm
[20:56] doing. they don't, you know, like I'm
[20:58] getting away with this and and then as
[21:00] it accelerates, then you have to start
[21:02] with all the lying and the hiding and
[21:04] all of that. But what was what was the
[21:06] conversation with moms that night after
[21:08] passing out on in in the bathroom in
[21:11] high school? She [snorts] couldn't have
[21:12] been too happy.
[21:12] >> Yeah. So, I don't even know. I think um
[21:15] you know, this was in the this was in
[21:16] like early 2000s, so like um parents
[21:20] putting their hands on on kids was kind
[21:21] of was okay at that point. And I was
[21:23] like 17, so I think she like punched me
[21:25] when I got in the car. Uh like maybe in
[21:27] the chest or something like that. But
[21:29] like she never like she wasn't a
[21:30] physical person like that.
[21:32] >> Um but I just knew like really her the
[21:34] look she's always she has this like look
[21:35] that she's like a lot of like a lot of
[21:38] parents have
[21:39] >> but it's this look that just like tore
[21:41] me up and I I just felt so embarrassed
[21:44] and like ashamed and felt like I like I
[21:47] um like disrespected her and and
[21:50] disrespected my family. And the thing
[21:52] was like I had a one thing I remember
[21:53] about that day is like I had a job at
[21:56] that point and I had I was supposed to
[21:59] go to work like later on that day and
[22:01] she made me go to work but she wasn't
[22:05] going to take me. So like I had to call
[22:06] my grandma to come take me to work. She
[22:09] knew the whole situation and she's like
[22:12] this if you like I hope you get to meet
[22:14] her. Um, she's like this really like,
[22:17] you know, quiet, so kind. Everybody, if
[22:21] you meet her, everybody's just going to
[22:22] be like, they're just, everybody loves
[22:24] my grandma, just automatic cuz she's
[22:25] just so kind, supportive, and attentive.
[22:28] And you feel like she's like looking
[22:29] into your soul as you talk to her, as
[22:31] she talks to you. And so she got in she
[22:33] I got in her car quiet cuz I'm trying to
[22:36] figure like how to not be drunk right
[22:37] now. And we're driving to this this
[22:41] place out in like the suburbs. And she
[22:44] like right before I got out, she like
[22:46] looked at me and like the first word she
[22:48] said was or the only word she said in
[22:50] the car was like don't let them see you
[22:51] like this. Like to me that meant just it
[22:55] was just so much cuz I was just walking
[22:56] into this building with you know at that
[22:58] time it was a it was a golf store and it
[23:00] was just it's just going to be all white
[23:01] people and I'm just looking a mess. So
[23:03] she's like just pull yourself together
[23:05] >> and don't ever let anybody see you like
[23:07] this. And I wish I took like the meaning
[23:10] of that like right away and and and
[23:12] maybe just went a different direction.
[23:14] But, you know, the the addiction won in
[23:16] that in that case. But that's what I
[23:18] remember from that day. And once I
[23:20] finally like came to terms with like my
[23:22] sobriety and started going on that walk,
[23:24] I knew more like what she what she
[23:26] meant. And um and I kind of tried to
[23:29] chase that that like redemption of that
[23:31] of that moment, you know, like
[23:33] throughout my life. Now
[23:35] >> with that rapid of an acceleration
[23:38] uh it seems like uh it would be
[23:41] difficult for you to sustain any kind of
[23:44] relationship with alcohol for very long.
[23:47] But
[23:48] >> that was what year? 2000
[23:50] >> 2002.
[23:50] >> 2002. You get sober in 2017. So you got
[23:55] a good 15-year run after that.
[23:57] >> Yeah. Yeah. Good is is a is a strange
[24:00] word. [laughter]
[24:02] >> Yeah. from so from that point like I got
[24:04] back into it just a little more tame I
[24:06] thought I was being and like I said I
[24:08] eased back into it
[24:09] >> and
[24:11] I just knew my I kind of learned my
[24:13] limit you know I thought I learned my
[24:15] limit at that point like I'll never I'll
[24:17] never be that drunk in public ever again
[24:19] I'll never drink that much in a short
[24:22] period of time ever again like I set
[24:23] these parameters without like without
[24:25] knowing it and it just allowed me to get
[24:28] to the point of you know okay I need to
[24:30] go home and I would just go home.
[24:32] >> And you were able to do that.
[24:33] >> I was able to do that, but then a lot of
[24:35] but that also led me to like this really
[24:37] isolated life. You know, you had family
[24:39] and stuff like that, but I still was
[24:40] like I would just be at home drinking. I
[24:42] wasn't I wasn't the type of drunk or
[24:44] drinker that like would want to be
[24:46] outside and at the bars and stuff like
[24:48] that. Like that.
[24:49] >> Yeah. You're taking your grandma's
[24:50] advice. It doesn't You're you're not
[24:52] interpreting it as stop drinking. Just
[24:54] don't let anyone see you doing it.
[24:56] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, like and if you're in my
[24:58] house Yeah. It is what it is. like, you
[25:00] know, so that was my my my thing was
[25:02] just like kind of hide hiding it as much
[25:03] as I could and then just never being in
[25:06] a car.
[25:08] >> Um, you know, absolutely just trashed or
[25:11] just I just didn't want to be around
[25:13] people like I was very alone to myself
[25:16] like drunk and that's it was just part
[25:18] of I wake up every morning and finish
[25:20] whatever I didn't you know the day
[25:22] before.
[25:22] >> So the morning drinking started pretty
[25:25] early. Um, I don't know when the morning
[25:27] drinking started, but it was, you know,
[25:28] definitely around like 200 like 12 or
[25:32] 13. Like that was standard, you know,
[25:35] and that was and I I just pulled from so
[25:38] many different like dumb inspirations.
[25:40] Like it was a dude that I I remember
[25:42] being around like cuz after I graduated,
[25:44] I went down this whole like street like
[25:47] rabbit hole where I just knew that I
[25:49] wanted to be out there or outside like
[25:51] that. And as a dude I knew that was like
[25:54] he would drink every day before he'd go
[25:55] out, you know, into the world because I
[25:57] mean he was living a much different
[25:58] lifestyle, but he just felt like he
[26:00] needed to have like a edge when he went
[26:02] outside.
[26:03] >> And I'm like, well, I'm going to work
[26:06] inside, but I could I could still use
[26:09] this like little edge. So, I was just
[26:10] using all these little random moments to
[26:13] validate like how I was like moving
[26:15] through my life. And but I just, you
[26:18] know, like they said, like there's like
[26:19] three phases of it. It's fun in the
[26:21] beginning. In the middle, you're just
[26:22] kind of maintaining. And at the end,
[26:23] it's just like absolute torture cuz you
[26:26] there's no chance of of stopping this
[26:28] this like train that's just is
[26:30] constantly rolling. And like every time
[26:33] that I would try to like stop, I would
[26:36] try to stop for like a week and I
[26:38] couldn't make it a day. And so every
[26:41] time I'd wake up in the morning and
[26:42] drink or every time that I would fail on
[26:44] these like little small little stances
[26:46] of of
[26:48] sobriety or like dry Januaries, it just
[26:51] felt like every day I like I was losing.
[26:53] I'd wake up every day and take a L. And
[26:57] it felt so out of control. Not because I
[27:00] was just like
[27:02] walking around the street stumbling
[27:03] around, but I was just had no control
[27:06] over my next like 20 minutes. Every time
[27:10] that happens, it's it's like another
[27:12] deposit in the uh hopelessness,
[27:15] desperation, uh piggy bank.
[27:18] >> Desp desperation was was like if I could
[27:21] have bought like two weeks of sobriety
[27:24] with every dollar I had at any point, I
[27:26] would have just to say that I did it. Um
[27:29] >> did you know anybody that was sober or
[27:31] that didn't drink or you were just it
[27:34] was like lower companion situation? No,
[27:37] I mean [clears throat] I I knew people
[27:38] that drank normal like regular like
[27:40] people that would drink once every week
[27:43] or something like that and they could
[27:45] control it. When you leave somebody's
[27:46] house like you'd buy a bottle and you
[27:48] take it to the house to have a party and
[27:49] you come back 2 weeks later and that
[27:51] same bottle is there. Like those people
[27:52] drove me crazy. Like how did you not
[27:55] drink this while I was gone?
[27:56] >> But no adult in your like orbit who was
[27:59] like yeah I'm an AA person.
[28:02] No one's checking in on you like that.
[28:04] Like cuz even the people like in my
[28:05] people in my family like um on my mom's
[28:07] side that didn't drink,
[28:08] >> they drank every now and then, but it
[28:10] was no like no intentional, you know, I
[28:13] go to AA was was a movie thing for me.
[28:16] >> Um that's the only time I saw it and it
[28:19] was never really depicted in like this
[28:21] light of like you should check it out.
[28:23] >> Yeah.
[28:24] >> That wasn't an option.
[28:25] >> Yeah.
[28:25] >> For me.
[28:27] >> You worked for many years uh at a auto
[28:30] transport company, right? Like now
[28:32] you're full-time running influencer
[28:35] racer dude. Uh but you had a pretty good
[28:38] job for a long time. Like you kind of
[28:39] worked your way up the ranks to like a
[28:41] VP level I guess, right?
[28:43] >> Is that a job that you started like
[28:45] right out of high school or or you know
[28:47] like how did you find your way there?
[28:48] And then how are you uh kind of uh
[28:52] getting promoted at your job while
[28:54] balancing this secret life as a morning
[28:56] drinking alcoholic? [laughter]
[28:58] >> Functional bro. Oh, no. It was
[29:01] >> because they they must have on some
[29:03] level. There's no way you had to just
[29:05] smell bad.
[29:06] >> I asked him after I got sober. I was
[29:07] like, "Did you?" And he was like, "No,
[29:09] >> I didn't."
[29:10] >> Wow.
[29:10] >> And I mean, he had to be lying to make
[29:12] me feel good. I don't know. But so I
[29:14] started working for them in 2007. So
[29:17] like from the like graduating high
[29:18] school to 2007, there was like this like
[29:21] little area where I like I jumped into
[29:25] like I guess like street life um in a
[29:28] way. And
[29:31] I I found myself going directly in this
[29:34] path of of like self like actual
[29:37] self-destruction and like gambling like
[29:39] my freedom
[29:40] >> and life like every day.
[29:44] >> What are we talking about here? Like
[29:45] selling drugs or
[29:46] >> um so I knew people that I knew people
[29:48] that did and I was around people that
[29:50] did. Um, and like I dabbled in it here
[29:53] and there, but I was much more like the
[29:56] younger dude around like people that
[29:57] were like 10, 15 years older than me and
[29:59] they were just doing really well. And I
[30:01] met them through through a girl that I
[30:04] knew at the time. And next thing you
[30:05] know, like cuz I I I I grew up
[30:07] glorifying like that,
[30:10] I guess, the cars and the money and
[30:11] stuff like that, but it was really more
[30:12] of like that masculine like I have it
[30:16] figured out energy and and that
[30:18] confident energy that I felt like I
[30:20] didn't have. Like, so I watch all these
[30:22] movies and it's like, yo, that's the guy
[30:24] that I that I think I should be like,
[30:25] you know, I should be like running this
[30:27] or having, you know, money and doing
[30:30] what I want to do. And so like all of a
[30:32] sudden to like run into some people like
[30:34] this, they were they were everything
[30:38] that I thought I wanted to be, which
[30:40] was, you know, confident, took care of
[30:42] their families, um, and people knew
[30:44] them, you know, and in hindsight, it was
[30:48] a very dangerous like decision for me to
[30:50] be like, "All right, what y'all need?
[30:51] And let's let's work and let me help and
[30:54] let me, you know, make some money on the
[30:56] side here, do all these like it was it
[30:58] was a um a big risk, but like I actually
[31:01] like thank God that that I met them and
[31:03] not like a different set of people
[31:05] >> cuz it wasn't like I guess hand to hand
[31:08] like it wasn't like I was like standing
[31:09] on a corner somewhere. Yeah. Like it was
[31:12] >> much different than that and a little
[31:14] safer but probably higher. the amount of
[31:17] years that potentially you could get if
[31:18] you got caught doing something would
[31:19] probably be a little a little crazy. But
[31:23] it was I'm just happy I met them because
[31:25] they they kept they were kept me farther
[31:27] away far away from that daily energy as
[31:31] possible. But then they also like
[31:33] strangely had even though I looked at
[31:36] the drug dealing part of it as yo this
[31:39] is who I want to be because they're drug
[31:41] dealers. It was really who I wanted to
[31:43] be because they were a lot of these guys
[31:46] are people that are just trying to take
[31:48] care of their families.
[31:48] >> Yeah. They look like they're thriving.
[31:50] >> They look like they're thriving. But
[31:51] then a lot at least in the generation
[31:53] that I grew up in and looked up to, they
[31:56] had morals and like and in and to a to
[32:00] an extent and had
[32:03] like a code amongst themselves like how
[32:05] they would carry themselves in the world
[32:06] and how they would take care of them
[32:08] their families like you know this is all
[32:11] a roundabout story to get to like 2007
[32:13] but when my my kids mom had our daughter
[32:16] uh in 2007 in 2007 I needed to get I
[32:20] needed to make a as I couldn't be in the
[32:22] house I was in and have her in the house
[32:24] with a baby. So, we moved to this other
[32:26] house. And
[32:29] I didn't see a dad directly with with
[32:33] children until I saw these guys handle
[32:35] their kids. And so, like for 2 3 years,
[32:38] I I acted I treated my daughter how they
[32:41] treated their their little girls. And I
[32:43] would say the same things to my daughter
[32:46] eventually that they were saying to
[32:47] their kids. and they like taught me how
[32:49] to be like a a a father and like a man
[32:53] to a to kids and a man to a woman, you
[32:57] know, and so it's like a blessing, but
[33:00] it was it's a weird it's a dark moment
[33:02] in my life, but it was also this
[33:03] blessing that I ran to these people in
[33:05] general. But so like to fast forward to
[33:07] 2007. But before you go there, I mean, I
[33:10] think the
[33:11] point that stands out to me in in what
[33:14] you just shared is that these things are
[33:18] not black and white. It's in the same
[33:20] way that we were characterizing alcohol
[33:22] as a solution to a problem.
[33:24] >> You know, you could look at this
[33:26] community of people and now in
[33:28] retrospect realize like that was a bad
[33:29] decision. That was a potentially
[33:31] dangerous environment for me. I'm
[33:33] grateful I got out of it.
[33:34] >> But they were fulfilling a need. like
[33:37] they were solving a problem for you by
[33:39] being a mentor in a certain kind of way
[33:42] that you needed and lacked and didn't
[33:44] have in your in your upbringing.
[33:46] >> Yeah. And I'm like super thankful for,
[33:48] you know, to them and for them. I'm not
[33:49] really in communication with them that
[33:51] much at all anymore, but like they they
[33:56] kind of gave me the blueprint of like
[33:58] how I can move in the world and how I
[34:00] can thrive in the world. you know, all
[34:01] you just got to replace, you know, you
[34:03] know, from drugs to something different,
[34:05] but like how do you carry yourself
[34:06] through these business interactions and
[34:08] how do you u like stand tall, I guess,
[34:10] on your on your what you believe is true
[34:12] and right and how do you move forward
[34:14] with that like with some sense of
[34:15] confidence and build.
[34:16] >> Um, so like that was just a that was
[34:18] definitely a blessing.
[34:20] >> So, you have kids all of a sudden.
[34:22] >> Yeah.
[34:22] >> How old are you?
[34:23] >> I'm 40 Well, at the time 23 23
[34:26] >> 23 in 2007. So I imagine that's a that
[34:29] that was a catalyst or kind of a
[34:32] recognition like hey like I gotta like
[34:34] figure my [ __ ] out a little bit.
[34:36] >> Yeah. So like I'm So I started say like
[34:39] I'm I'm going to get a job now cuz like
[34:40] I can't I don't want to be like the
[34:42] movies just doing one more little thing
[34:44] for a couple dollars here and then all
[34:45] of a sudden like you're in prison. So
[34:47] I'm like all right let me get a job. And
[34:49] I was I I said no to using like some of
[34:52] the cars that I had access to before cuz
[34:54] I just didn't want to have to be pulled
[34:55] in that direction. So I'm like, "No, I'm
[34:57] good." Or, you know, and I was paying
[34:58] for a cab just to get back and forth to
[35:00] this church that I got a job at. There
[35:02] was a church that my mom like like kind
[35:04] of grew me up in and like for my like my
[35:06] high school years. And so I'm working at
[35:09] this church and also sort of trying to
[35:11] play that lifestyle of trying to make
[35:13] money every now and then if I could. But
[35:15] it was just like this hard thing to go
[35:18] from like having everything that I
[35:19] needed and making really good money to
[35:22] all of a sudden trying to raise another
[35:24] person and
[35:27] figure like this like life out. And it
[35:30] was just my mom came to visit and cuz
[35:33] she was living in Massachusetts at the
[35:34] time and she came to visit for a few
[35:36] days and I was just trying to hold it
[35:38] together like as much as I could and act
[35:39] like this like $20 that I had was like
[35:41] enough. and she like saw it, didn't say
[35:45] too much. Her and my grandma came picked
[35:47] me up and took me to like Target or
[35:49] something like that to buy a bunch of
[35:51] stuff and they're like, "Oh, we just
[35:52] want to help you with like a home a
[35:53] homewarming type of gift." And she
[35:55] called me like a month or so after
[35:57] visiting and was like, "I see that
[35:59] you're I don't know what you're doing or
[36:01] what you were doing. I see that you're
[36:03] trying to make a difference or a change
[36:06] in your life and you're trying to take
[36:07] care of this little girl. Um, if you
[36:10] want, you could come to Massachusetts,
[36:12] live with me, and you know, you can
[36:14] bring, you know, you can bring Iris, her
[36:15] mom, you can bring her, too, and you
[36:18] guys can start over if you want.
[36:20] >> And she's like, it's different. It's
[36:22] Newport, Massachusetts. It's like as
[36:25] white as you can get,
[36:27] >> you know? And I'm like, uh, let me talk
[36:30] to her and see what she said. And she
[36:32] said yes. Like within like first
[36:34] conversation, she's like, yeah, sure.
[36:35] Let's get out of here. cuz she everybody
[36:39] saw me like that cared I guess about me
[36:41] saw me trying to figure this thing out
[36:42] and not like resort to what I thought
[36:45] was the easiest way to make money at
[36:47] that mo at that point. And so I moved um
[36:50] my mom the guy my mom was like really
[36:53] close friends with came picked me up on
[36:56] September 10th 2007 and we drove from
[36:59] you know through Canada um to go to
[37:02] Massachusetts. All my stuff was in the
[37:04] back of a pickup truck and we just like
[37:06] started this life over and I started
[37:09] working at like a a doughnut shop for
[37:11] seven days and then the eighth day I
[37:14] started at at Lowe's like home the home
[37:17] improvement.
[37:18] >> Yeah. worked there for two months. And
[37:19] while I was working there, I got hired
[37:21] at Reload Trains, Auto Relocation for um
[37:25] at the entry level position. Like I was
[37:28] the money I was making was like kind of
[37:30] laughable like but it was definitely my
[37:32] first desk job and I started at the
[37:34] lowest position you could get and just
[37:36] over those years I I just kept kind of
[37:39] climbing and kind of instilling like
[37:41] what I saw my mom and my sister and my
[37:43] grandma do in their lives which is just
[37:44] like keep going forward and figure it
[37:47] out. So, how many years were you in
[37:49] Massachusetts before you moved back to
[37:50] Detroit?
[37:51] >> I moved back to Detroit, I think, in
[37:53] like 2014.
[37:54] >> Oh, wow. So, so I was there for like
[37:56] seven years.
[37:57] >> Yeah. So, like six or seven years, I was
[37:59] out there. And in that, in that time,
[38:01] like I I I stopped working for Reload
[38:04] Trans in 2025.
[38:07] And in that time, I went from the person
[38:10] that just talks on the phone about the
[38:11] relocation that ads puts it together to
[38:14] sales to creating a position for like
[38:17] director of sales and then just kept
[38:19] working my way up because I was just
[38:21] making a name for myself in the industry
[38:22] and really like helping the company grow
[38:25] really quickly. But all that time I was
[38:28] like my my addiction was just there
[38:31] >> and [clears throat] it was just
[38:32] increasing. And then I was drinking
[38:34] during the job. I was had like liquor in
[38:36] Red Bull bottles, you know, just
[38:38] thinking that the smell of the Red Bull
[38:40] would like mask the liquor. But I it was
[38:43] keeping me together, I thought. And um
[38:46] couple like scares like health-wise and
[38:50] just like decision- making, but somehow
[38:53] like I put this like string of of years
[38:55] together where I was really thriving.
[39:00] The first time I saw an R2 in person, I
[39:02] got it immediately. This is the Rivian
[39:05] that a lot of people are going to be
[39:06] able to enjoy. Driving it with R.J. only
[39:09] confirm that.
[39:10] >> All right. So, first impressions in my
[39:13] first
[39:13] >> in your first
[39:14] >> experience in the R2.
[39:20] >> Nice. All right. Now I'm getting the
[39:21] feel.
[39:22] >> Yeah.
[39:23] >> Feels [music] really tight.
[39:25] >> It feels nice, right?
[39:26] >> Yeah. Interestingly, like from a first
[39:28] impression point [music] of view, when
[39:29] you see it from a distance,
[39:32] proportionally, it looks very similar
[39:34] [music] to the R1, you know, like the
[39:36] way that it is designed, it looks kind
[39:39] of integral with the original.
[39:42] >> It's quite a bit smaller. And [music] so
[39:43] when you look at them separately,
[39:45] sometimes people be like, is that an R1
[39:46] or an R2? And they have a lot of
[39:48] similarities.
[39:49] >> But I I actually think R2 ended up with
[39:51] a better set of proportions. And it's
[39:53] [music] that kind of thinking that just
[39:55] exists across everything to try to
[39:58] deliver an [music] experience that still
[40:00] feels really Rivian like but at a
[40:02] fraction of the cost of R1.
[40:04] >> First impressions aside, there's a lot
[40:06] more to the R2 than what you see at
[40:08] first glance. [music] To learn all about
[40:09] the R2, watch the rest of our
[40:11] conversation and book a demo drive at
[40:14] stories.
[40:16] Roll.
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[41:42] So, you're moving up in the job, but
[41:44] your quality of life is degrading. You
[41:46] have a 10-year run drinking as a parent
[41:51] also.
[41:52] >> Yeah.
[41:52] >> You know, that has to be like looking
[41:54] now, you know, backwards at those times.
[41:58] Like, it seems like you have a great
[41:59] relationship with your kids now.
[42:01] >> I think so. I tried to. She's 19. My
[42:04] son's just turned 16. Um they I mean I
[42:08] don't think they remember me drinking,
[42:10] you know, but she remembers me as a dad
[42:12] then. So I don't know. I just don't
[42:13] really know like how much of that life
[42:15] she remembers. But I'm so happy that you
[42:20] know that I've been I've been sober
[42:21] going on I've been sober over 9 years
[42:24] now. And it's um I I can't I'm so
[42:31] thankful. like I don't even necessarily
[42:32] have the words of like how happy and um
[42:36] grateful I am to be in their lives and
[42:40] be in and be a point of inspiration in a
[42:45] way or I don't hide you know the fact
[42:47] that I used to be an alcoholic or I am
[42:49] an alcoholic when we first met correct
[42:53] me if I'm not me remembering this
[42:55] properly but uh when we were talking you
[43:00] you were still sort struggling with
[43:02] whether to share your addiction and
[43:04] sobriety story. I mean, obviously you
[43:06] were much earlier in sobriety at that
[43:08] point.
[43:08] >> Yeah.
[43:08] >> And now this is, you know, it's it's
[43:11] sort of running first in terms of like
[43:13] how you communicate publicly, but um the
[43:16] recovery piece has has become much more
[43:19] prominent in how [clears throat] you
[43:21] think about, you know, how you share
[43:22] your life. Yeah, it was definitely like
[43:26] I didn't being in corporate for so long
[43:28] and trying to build yourself, your your
[43:31] personal brand, but then also you're
[43:32] working you're representing a company
[43:35] like I didn't ever I never talked about
[43:37] sobriety. Even after I got sober, I kind
[43:39] of was really quiet about it cuz I you
[43:41] don't want to you don't want to
[43:43] negatively impact a company, but I had
[43:45] to like come to terms with this is my
[43:47] per this is my personal brand. This is
[43:49] my message. this is like could
[43:51] potentially be my purpose in the world
[43:52] is to share some of the things that I've
[43:54] learned and I got on a podcast uh once
[43:57] or it was like a live with believe in
[43:59] the run and he it was like 30 minute
[44:01] little spy he asked me some questions
[44:03] and there was a moment that I could have
[44:05] talked about sobriety but and he like
[44:07] teed it up perfect for it and then I
[44:09] like pivoted and went back to running
[44:12] and I got off that that 30 minute live
[44:14] and felt so terrible like like I missed
[44:18] an opportunity potentially help one
[44:20] person maybe. And I'm like, okay, if I'm
[44:23] going to do this whole Tommy Runs thing
[44:25] and I ever get an [clears throat]
[44:26] opportunity to be on a podcast again, if
[44:28] someone ask me that m about that moment
[44:30] or there's a chance that I could talk
[44:31] about sobriety, I'm doing it. And I
[44:34] think that was when we met, it was like
[44:37] kind of right before that all that
[44:38] happened. And you know, knowing that
[44:41] there's a you too out in the world that
[44:44] leans heavily into that story gives like
[44:47] other people moments of um clarity in a
[44:50] sense or I can do that too. And so in
[44:54] that moment I'm like probably referenced
[44:56] to you and other people in my brain like
[44:58] they're doing just fine and there's no
[45:00] one like shaming them for being you know
[45:02] attempting to be sober and stay sober
[45:03] and help other people. So that's when I
[45:05] leaned in like I'm telling this story
[45:07] because when I got sober in the first
[45:10] day, the first meeting I went to, I went
[45:13] into a room with, you know, it was in a
[45:15] nice area. There was nice cars outside.
[45:17] Walked inside, everybody, you know, the
[45:19] average age was probably like 45 to 50.
[45:22] Um, everybody, no one looks like me in
[45:24] the room. And I walked in because a
[45:27] therapist told me that I should maybe
[45:29] check it out. And there's a guy that was
[45:30] going to be waiting on me to get there.
[45:32] So I'm like, "Okay." And I walked in,
[45:34] I'm like, "These people will there's no
[45:36] chance that they understand what I've
[45:38] been through."
[45:39] >> Yeah.
[45:39] >> And then I heard
[45:40] >> like a Gross Point crowd.
[45:42] >> Yeah. [laughter]
[45:44] >> I told you this, you know, I was born in
[45:45] Gross Point.
[45:46] >> Okay. Yeah.
[45:47] >> Do you remember? We I think we talked
[45:48] about
[45:49] >> it was actually West Bloomfield.
[45:50] >> So basically, same thing. Maybe even a
[45:53] little
[45:54] definitely a little more. And it was
[45:56] like a a Bentley outside and like a like
[45:58] a Porsche or something like that. Okay,
[45:59] this is this isn't going to work. But
[46:01] then I'm sitting there and all these
[46:02] people are telling their story and they
[46:04] literally in some way said how they in
[46:07] their stories they they shared how I
[46:08] felt you know about myself addiction um
[46:13] and all that. So I'm like this is these
[46:14] are my people almost immediately before
[46:16] I even said a word. I'm like these are
[46:18] my people and I need to be here. If I
[46:20] can do that randomly on a podcast or in
[46:23] some version of like a caption of a post
[46:24] that I share about some shoes and I
[46:26] mention something else that strikes like
[46:28] that chord of like, oh, I do I resonate
[46:32] with this and if he can do it, I can do
[46:35] it, too. And that's been my theme for
[46:38] like everything that I've done, whether
[46:40] it's, you know, these big races or just
[46:43] going after marathons. It's not
[46:45] necessarily like I want to inspire you
[46:47] to do this, but I want to inspire you to
[46:50] do some form of whatever that next step
[46:52] is for you. Um, so that that was really
[46:55] what I was grappling with was like, can
[46:57] I share this and is it helpful? And then
[46:59] I had to think about like my life was
[47:00] saved in those rooms because people
[47:02] shared their stories authentically. They
[47:04] didn't cut corners. They didn't try to
[47:06] preach to the thing. They literally just
[47:09] shared some of their most vulnerable and
[47:12] scary and kind of like laughable
[47:15] stories. Um, but it was what I needed to
[47:19] to know that like it's not just me, you
[47:22] know?
[47:22] >> Yeah. Walk me up to your moment of
[47:25] clarity. Like how did you uh wake up one
[47:28] day and decide this is the day that I'm
[47:31] gonna get sober. I'm gonna go to my
[47:33] first AA meeting. The day was uh January
[47:36] 11th, 2017. Um that was the the the last
[47:40] drink I had was January 10th. And
[47:42] leading up to that was like just a
[47:44] couple years of just trying so hard to
[47:46] figure out how to string together a week
[47:49] or a month or whatever. And my friend
[47:52] Donovan, uh like best friend, brother,
[47:55] met him when I was like 12. And we just
[47:58] were like inseparable for so long. Rest
[48:00] in peace. He passed in um March in March
[48:04] 2025.
[48:06] And so he was he definitely was
[48:09] alcoholic as well. He didn't never say
[48:11] he was, but whenever like I would say
[48:13] that I wanted to stop drinking for a
[48:15] little bit, he would be like, "All
[48:16] right, cool. I'll do it with you." And
[48:18] it was strange how quick he would I knew
[48:21] he needed it too, but he was doing it
[48:23] for me, you know, in his head. But it
[48:26] like it let me keep trying to do it. So
[48:29] every time I would try and fail, like I
[48:30] would tell him the truth and he'd be
[48:32] like, "Oh, you good, bro?" Like, you
[48:34] know, you got a good job. Like we kind
[48:35] of played it off and kind of roll
[48:36] forward. But every time I would try to
[48:37] get worse and worse to the point where
[48:39] like my mom text me one day in January
[48:44] 2007, like right after the new year, uh
[48:46] he and I were going to do this dry
[48:48] January thing. And I got to like the
[48:52] third or fourth day into January, went
[48:54] over his house. Um, our wives at the
[48:57] time were, you know, were drinking and I
[49:00] I made it through the whole night, no
[49:02] drinking. And I woke up at like 2:30 in
[49:04] the morning. Our my kids are downstairs
[49:06] with his kids. Everybody's sleeping in
[49:07] the house at 2:30 in the morning. And I
[49:09] like went into the kitchen, found the
[49:12] bottle of vodka, and just started
[49:14] drinking in the middle of the night. No
[49:16] one's awake. There's no reason why I
[49:17] would need to do this, you know, in my
[49:19] in rational mind. and
[49:22] then just got drunk and
[49:25] >> fell asleep. And that was the silliest
[49:29] and dumbest and saddest that I've ever
[49:32] been. [laughter] You know, it's like
[49:34] >> at least like I could have caved like
[49:36] people were awake.
[49:37] >> Sleep. You just woke up in the middle.
[49:38] Yeah. Like you couldn't even sleep
[49:39] through the night. There's everyone's
[49:41] there's nothing going on.
[49:42] >> There's no benefit to me being tipsy,
[49:45] drunk, or anything alike at that point.
[49:47] There's no awkward social situation that
[49:49] you have to show up for. Yeah, I
[49:51] [snorts] just had to [laughter]
[49:52] I just had to stay asleep. I could have
[49:54] just went back to sleep, but I'm like,
[49:55] let me go have this drink and and then
[49:58] but that was just I woke up the next day
[50:00] and the days after that I would just
[50:01] obviously right back to it, but I just
[50:03] felt that was the worst that I felt. And
[50:05] I'm just like I'm going to die like
[50:07] this. Like this is how I die is in a car
[50:10] or you know I'm already I'm I'm 30
[50:14] whatever 32 and it's going to be blood
[50:16] pressure cuz my blood pressure was high
[50:18] blood pressure.
[50:19] >> Yeah. Like I was in the hospital when I
[50:21] was 30 or something like that 29 30 with
[50:25] like 82 over like 120 something.
[50:28] >> Wow. Like at this point from then on I
[50:30] could feel whenever my blood pressure
[50:32] would get high enough like my hand was
[50:33] starting to go numb like so I was
[50:34] playing with like dying just like my dad
[50:37] did you know?
[50:38] >> Yeah. You have this you know father
[50:40] figure looming over you died so young.
[50:43] >> If I can't be better than him I might as
[50:45] well like die sooner than ridiculous I
[50:49] guess. But
[50:50] >> so like that's but that's where I was
[50:51] like that's like this is just how it
[50:52] ends you know. There's no I I cannot
[50:55] beat this. It will not happen. And
[50:58] it just is what it is. And my mom like
[51:00] texts me one day. She's like, "How's my
[51:03] son?" And this was like a day or so
[51:04] after that episode. And I'm like,
[51:07] normally I just go, "I'm doing great.
[51:10] Kids are good." Blah blah blah. I just
[51:12] told her, "Not good." And simply like
[51:14] just just that quick. Not good. Didn't
[51:16] divulge what what was happening. And she
[51:18] said, "You know, you should call you
[51:20] should reach out to EAP. You have
[51:21] insurance employee assistance program.
[51:23] Reach out. They'll maybe help you." And
[51:26] so I did what she told me to do
[51:29] >> and they called me like the next day and
[51:31] was like, "Hey, you know, they do like a
[51:33] little screening thing to figure out
[51:34] what type of therapist maybe you need."
[51:36] I complained about family stuff and
[51:38] blamed everything. The reason why I was
[51:39] calling is not my fault. It's not
[51:40] addiction. It's just, you know,
[51:41] whatever. But she asked me how many how
[51:44] many times I drink a day or a week. And
[51:46] I'm like, it really just depends on like
[51:48] what it is. If it's beer, it's a ton. If
[51:50] it's liquor, it's 7 8 or whatever until
[51:53] I can't anymore. And I wake up in the
[51:54] morning, I drink. And she was like,
[51:56] "Okay, no, no."
[51:57] >> So, you were honest in that answer.
[51:58] >> So, like I told her the truth. I told
[52:00] this lady on the phone the truth. And
[52:02] then they like, "Okay, well, we have an
[52:06] appointment for you on January 11th uh
[52:09] with this person and she's a family
[52:11] therapist." And so I'm like, "Okay,
[52:13] cool. January 10th, I drank at like
[52:15] 10:30 p.m. Like, I can't go there
[52:18] smelling like liquor, so let's stop
[52:20] here." Um, so I walked in and she starts
[52:23] talking to me. started complaining about
[52:24] family and this and that, works hard.
[52:26] She was like, "Well, how much do you
[52:27] drink, you know, or do you do do you
[52:29] think I have a drinking problem?" I'm
[52:30] like, "Yeah, I mean, I drink a bit." And
[52:32] she asked me, "How much?" And I told her
[52:33] the truth again. She was like, "Okay,
[52:35] well, the cool thing is I'm a family
[52:36] therapist, but I'm also um I'm I'm
[52:40] actually mainly a substance abuse
[52:41] counselor." And I'm like, I almost
[52:43] walked out like, "You guys tricked me."
[52:44] You know what I'm saying? But uh they
[52:47] she she said, "Well, you you definitely
[52:49] have a drinking problem. I'm not going
[52:51] to call you an alcoholic, but you you
[52:52] have you have an issue. There's a
[52:54] meeting that happens on Sunday. I know a
[52:57] guy that goes there. He's a nice guy.
[52:58] He's around your age. You should go with
[53:00] him. Just meet him there. And then so I
[53:02] walked out of that office and was like,
[53:04] "All right, well, how about I just don't
[53:06] drink from Wednesday to to Sunday." And
[53:09] at that point, that's like four or five
[53:10] days. And that is a stretch for me.
[53:12] >> Mhm. But somehow because of I said like
[53:16] those three truths, I was able to like
[53:18] the weight of the addiction was lifted
[53:20] enough for me to to hold and not drink
[53:23] from January 11th to that till when I
[53:25] walked in that meeting.
[53:26] >> Right. Also, you're a man of great
[53:28] integrity and when you say I'm going to
[53:30] I'm going to not drink for these four
[53:32] days, like you're a man of your word.
[53:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. I've been able to Yeah.
[53:35] Yeah. I didn't tell her that. I just
[53:37] said that in my head like I'm just not
[53:38] going to drink. But it's that it's that
[53:40] thing that superiority complex like I
[53:43] am, you know, like I'm stronger than
[53:44] anyone while also feeling like I'm the
[53:46] worst person in the world. Like you're
[53:48] simultaneously like inhabiting those
[53:51] >> two ideas about yourself.
[53:52] >> I don't know. Like I don't know if I
[53:54] ever I always thought that I could be
[53:56] really good at something. Um but I just
[53:59] didn't think that I was I had what it
[54:02] took to reach like my potential,
[54:04] >> you know? Like that's just it. Like I
[54:06] knew that I was like smart enough. I
[54:08] knew I could talk enough. I knew I could
[54:11] make friends with people that I needed
[54:12] to and talk to whoever. My mom, you
[54:14] know, my family raised me so well.
[54:16] >> Who else could drink as much as you were
[54:18] drinking and still move up the corporate
[54:20] ladder at your job and be a parent, you
[54:22] know, like you know, you're like, I'm
[54:23] I'm like crushing it. I mean low key
[54:26] like low-key renaissance man type stuff,
[54:28] you know, but you know like I think that
[54:30] I just never looked at myself well ever,
[54:33] you know, like even during that time
[54:35] working for that one company for 17
[54:36] years. I was just telling somebody the
[54:38] other day like I had job offers that
[54:39] were easily anybody else would have
[54:42] taken. But I can't take that job because
[54:44] you're going to you'll find out they'll
[54:46] find out.
[54:46] >> You'll find out cuz if whatever whatever
[54:48] reason this company they don't they're
[54:50] not paying attention to me like that.
[54:51] you're going to find out that I'm an
[54:52] [ __ ] or that I'm like just drinking
[54:54] my life.
[54:55] >> I'll stay here cuz they're sort of blind
[54:56] to what I'm doing and I have a setup
[54:58] where
[54:58] >> they need me. They like, you know, like
[55:01] >> and so like I just didn't have the
[55:03] confidence at that time to like make a
[55:06] decision that would put me at risk of
[55:08] being like found out, you know,
[55:11] >> right? But leading up to that like
[55:13] moment of of like walking into her
[55:15] office was just I think it's it's just
[55:18] the truth part, you know, like I li you
[55:21] we lie about our our alcoholism and the
[55:23] things we're doing so much. It's just
[55:25] it's like second nature or first nature
[55:27] almost just to hide lie. Um you know,
[55:31] how many drinks have you had? Two. you
[55:33] know, but it's like I finally was able
[55:35] to tell the truth about it to someone
[55:37] outside of Donovan, you know, and people
[55:40] that I probably wouldn't have told the
[55:42] truth to and it just it like loosened
[55:43] its like grip enough for me to see some
[55:47] space in between, you know, myself in
[55:49] this drink.
[55:50] >> Um, and I'm I just like thank God for
[55:52] like for whatever happened like I was
[55:55] able to tell the truth at that moment.
[55:57] >> Yeah. So, you go to that first meeting,
[56:00] you hear a version of your story,
[56:03] something clicks in you. How do you go
[56:05] from being a guy who can't go three or
[56:08] four days without drinking to not
[56:11] drinking for coming up on 10 years at
[56:14] this point from that January 11th, 2017
[56:18] day?
[56:20] >> Um,
[56:21] you know, the the meetings
[56:24] saved my life. not just like that day,
[56:26] but having um a place to go that felt
[56:31] like home more than home did
[56:34] allowed me to just continue to work
[56:37] through some of those those worries and
[56:40] issues that I thought were just so
[56:42] important to me. You know, like when you
[56:44] go into a meeting and you complain about
[56:45] something or you're worried about
[56:47] something like somebody that has like
[56:49] 15, 20 years says like the most simple
[56:52] stupid statement
[56:53] >> Mhm. That just means like, oh, relax.
[56:56] That's one day at a time. I'm worried
[56:58] about three months away because I got to
[56:59] go to a conference.
[57:00] >> One of the endless apherisms that are so
[57:02] annoying.
[57:03] >> It's like, so it's like, bro, shut up.
[57:04] [laughter]
[57:05] >> Like, okay, though. I get it. you know,
[57:07] it's but it was it's all the things that
[57:09] I like I learned in the program and as I
[57:13] worked through those like first few
[57:15] years of, you know, being able to bounce
[57:18] ideas or thoughts or worries off of
[57:20] people who weren't judging me but like
[57:22] saw themselves or heard themselves in
[57:24] what I was worried about and responded
[57:26] in a way that was much more passionate
[57:29] and um like caring than someone who
[57:32] doesn't understand who can have a drink
[57:34] and not drink for 3 4 is um people like
[57:37] that don't understand like what your how
[57:40] silly some of the things you worry about
[57:42] but how large those issues can become if
[57:45] you if they go unchecked.
[57:47] >> And so being in the program those first
[57:49] few years was so
[57:52] I needed every I needed that more than
[57:54] anything. And I also think that I'm
[57:58] blessed to to not have the urge to
[58:01] drink. And it kind of happened really
[58:04] fast. Like once I like fully made that
[58:07] decision that this is where I belong.
[58:10] I just haven't had that, oh, I think I
[58:13] need a drink or oh, I should drink right
[58:15] now. I've just I just haven't had that.
[58:17] And I know people struggle with that
[58:19] like every day.
[58:20] >> So, I know that I'm blessed and kind of
[58:21] rare in that in that aspect, but I think
[58:23] it was just because of how for me how
[58:26] much I I really wanted to be here, but
[58:30] just couldn't see a way. and they and
[58:31] they showed me like the way to it
[58:34] >> and I just accepted it like
[58:35] wholeheartedly. And yeah, I probably
[58:37] still act like an alcoholic and process
[58:40] things in a weird way that only we
[58:43] would. But at the same time, it just
[58:46] doesn't lead me back to to like wanting
[58:48] a drink cuz I know I know and I also
[58:51] know that I fully believe that I'll die
[58:54] if I go back to drinking.
[58:56] What do you think the difference is
[58:58] between someone like yourself who can
[59:02] walk into a meeting desperate,
[59:05] still not sure, not only like am I going
[59:09] to be able to
[59:11] be a sober person, but do I even really
[59:14] want this? Uh and yet building this
[59:18] foundation of sobriety and the person
[59:20] who has walked some version of your path
[59:23] who goes in and feels similarly about
[59:27] themselves and their relationship with
[59:28] alcohol and like can't get it or is in
[59:31] and out all the time. Is it something
[59:34] more than deeply wanting it? Is it a
[59:38] function of willingness? like what is
[59:39] the differentiator between the person
[59:41] who really kind of locks in and like
[59:45] does the work and builds a new life and
[59:48] the person who just continues to
[59:50] struggle.
[59:51] >> I think I mean the first thing that
[59:53] comes to mind to me is like ego. I mean,
[59:55] we have we have this like identity built
[59:57] in like who we think we are and
[1:00:01] and I mean the reason why it takes
[1:00:03] people to get to rock bottom, whatever
[1:00:05] your rock bottom is to make that change
[1:00:07] is cuz you're still attached to that ego
[1:00:10] or to that identity. Um, and anything
[1:00:12] that rubs against that, you're going to
[1:00:14] have some, you know, unwillingness to to
[1:00:17] shift or make the change. So, like for
[1:00:19] me, my rock bottom doesn't look maybe
[1:00:22] not nearly as bad as someone else's, but
[1:00:24] I was just ready to change and like I
[1:00:27] wanted it, you know, bad enough to be
[1:00:30] willing to do all the things and say all
[1:00:33] the silly statements. But I think it
[1:00:36] really just comes down to maybe not
[1:00:37] wanting it, but just being open and
[1:00:40] ready to take the suggestions of this
[1:00:43] book or these people that are ahead of
[1:00:46] you in this journey. Um, and also just
[1:00:49] like surrendering to the fact that you
[1:00:52] really don't have any control like
[1:00:54] whether it's over alcohol or drugs or
[1:00:57] whatever, you just don't have it in life
[1:00:59] in general. We just have no only control
[1:01:02] we have is just how we respond to these
[1:01:04] to like to these moments and to these
[1:01:06] opportunities or happenings in life. And
[1:01:09] as if you can just get to the point
[1:01:11] where you just are okay with like that,
[1:01:13] then that's the building blocks for like
[1:01:16] whatever is next.
[1:01:17] >> Yeah.
[1:01:17] >> But you just see so many people kind of
[1:01:20] holding on to their identity or who they
[1:01:22] think they should be. They want to be
[1:01:24] sober,
[1:01:24] >> but there's also this this thing that's
[1:01:27] holding them too close to
[1:01:31] what they built during their addiction.
[1:01:34] They haven't fully surrendered to this
[1:01:37] idea of powerlessness. Yeah. And the
[1:01:40] idea that this has to come before
[1:01:42] everything else and there's no quick
[1:01:45] fix. Like
[1:01:46] >> you really have to just be like, "All
[1:01:48] right, like what's it going to be?" You
[1:01:50] know, um,
[1:01:52] >> you know, Odysius uh, on the raft, you
[1:01:55] know, [laughter]
[1:01:56] >> leaving Calypso behind in full surrender
[1:01:59] and letting the the gods direct the
[1:02:01] current, you know, and hopefully I'll
[1:02:02] end up home. But it's really out of my
[1:02:04] hands.
[1:02:05] >> So silly. I almost like cried in that
[1:02:06] movie when he did that cuz it's like I
[1:02:08] mean that's how it feels. It's just like
[1:02:10] you
[1:02:11] >> he's going through the 12 steps in that
[1:02:13] movie. He talked about this with Ryan
[1:02:15] Holidayiday. I love that podcast. Yeah.
[1:02:17] >> Thank you [laughter] for that.
[1:02:18] >> And it's like finally, you know, like
[1:02:20] now he's going to get it. Like the only
[1:02:22] way he's going to solve this problem is
[1:02:24] by by like relinquishing the idea that
[1:02:27] he can solve it himself.
[1:02:29] >> Yeah. You just have Yeah. You just have
[1:02:30] to have to let go. And if that's what it
[1:02:33] feels like, it feels like you're you're
[1:02:35] just laying. It's not like they sent
[1:02:37] them in a little boat with a paddle.
[1:02:39] It's literally just lay on these couple
[1:02:41] pieces of wood and just float and see
[1:02:43] what happens. And that's what it feels
[1:02:45] like. Even though we were like probably
[1:02:46] on a makeshift boat with like 20 holes
[1:02:48] in the bottom, going to sink anyway.
[1:02:50] We're like holding on to this thought of
[1:02:51] we should be able to this should be
[1:02:53] different. It should be a plan. It
[1:02:55] should be something more, you know,
[1:02:58] amazing to think about like this better
[1:03:00] journey. But we really just have to like
[1:03:02] let go and follow the like the tenants
[1:03:05] of the program, but then also
[1:03:09] just relinquishing all control of what
[1:03:13] we thought we were controlling. Cuz
[1:03:15] that's one thing like for for me at
[1:03:16] least, alcoholism seems like this wild
[1:03:19] thing that you're just so out of
[1:03:20] control, but there's this weird false
[1:03:23] sense of control within ourselves. We're
[1:03:26] like, we know what we're doing. We've
[1:03:28] crafted this master plan of how to be
[1:03:30] drunk around everybody. No one knows.
[1:03:32] It's this false sense of of security
[1:03:35] that we still try to hold on to as we're
[1:03:37] like trying to step away from it.
[1:03:39] >> Mhm.
[1:03:41] >> Yeah. Well said.
[1:03:42] >> When that was my goal is to get you to
[1:03:44] say well said at least once.
[1:03:46] >> I got Well, all right. Goal goal
[1:03:47] unlocked. Okay.
[1:03:49] >> Um I have some goals also. I'll show
[1:03:51] them. Okay. At the end. We're not there
[1:03:53] yet. When is running enter the picture?
[1:03:56] Uh so running um enters in 2018.
[1:04:00] Um so I was like after getting sober
[1:04:03] like two weeks into um that walk I could
[1:04:06] I could like start to see myself in the
[1:04:08] mirror like physically. I'm like oh I
[1:04:11] look like crap like you with my shirt
[1:04:13] off in the mirror like this is I feel
[1:04:15] terrible still. I look bad. Um so let me
[1:04:19] start going to the gym. So I was going
[1:04:20] to the gym six or seven days a week. I
[1:04:23] just started going and I got real buff.
[1:04:26] Like I was really into it and my name I
[1:04:29] forgot what my name was before but uh my
[1:04:32] name was Tommy Guns on Instagram after
[1:04:35] like I started getting like real buff.
[1:04:37] >> You had a you had some other uh stage
[1:04:40] name on Instagram before that.
[1:04:42] >> I mean it was like
[1:04:43] >> I can't remember what it is.
[1:04:44] >> No, I think it was like something about
[1:04:45] cooking or something like cuz I liked
[1:04:47] cooking cuz I could drink while I was
[1:04:48] cooking and I enjoyed that that process.
[1:04:52] All right. So now you're
[1:04:53] >> So now I'm Tommy Guns. Tommy guns. I'm
[1:04:55] in the gym like heavy. Um like I was
[1:04:58] actually
[1:04:58] >> Guns with a Z. Of course.
[1:04:59] >> Guns with a Z. Yeah. Yeah. We we stayed
[1:05:01] branded right across.
[1:05:03] >> Um but then so like I was still working
[1:05:06] at the job. I had a client that was
[1:05:07] based in Chicago and he's like in 2018
[1:05:11] he's like, "Hey, um you're fit. We run
[1:05:15] the Chicago Rock and Roll Half Marathon
[1:05:17] every year as my for my company. who
[1:05:18] raised a bunch of money for a charity
[1:05:20] called Move for Hunger. Um, and I was
[1:05:22] familiar very familiar with the charity.
[1:05:24] Like I met the guy who owns or who
[1:05:26] started that the same like my first
[1:05:28] business trip. He was on that first
[1:05:30] business. It was his first business
[1:05:31] trip. So, shout out to Adam. Um, but so
[1:05:35] like I'm like, "Yeah, bet. I'll raise
[1:05:36] some money for the charity." So, I
[1:05:38] raised some money and but I'm training
[1:05:40] for this race training. you know, it was
[1:05:43] like six weeks of just like kind of like
[1:05:44] I jumped into a couple like 5ks to see
[1:05:46] what I could do. And then I ran this
[1:05:48] this this race in Chicago and at that
[1:05:52] point it was like a little over a year
[1:05:53] of sobriety. But somehow like getting on
[1:05:56] the line with all these people that I
[1:05:59] don't know, like thousands, it was a big
[1:06:00] race. Thousands of people I don't know
[1:06:02] running through the streets of Chicago
[1:06:05] all with like the same similar goal.
[1:06:07] Some people are going to get there
[1:06:08] faster or slower, but like we all did it
[1:06:10] together. And it felt like this number
[1:06:14] one felt a lot like the rooms to me
[1:06:17] somehow in in sobriety. And then
[1:06:21] secondly, no disrespect to my kids or
[1:06:24] whatever, but it was probably one of the
[1:06:26] most proud moments that I've had in my
[1:06:27] life to be somewhere so far from like
[1:06:31] from what I thought was possible like
[1:06:33] growing up. I didn't grow up seeing
[1:06:34] people like run half marathons for fun.
[1:06:38] Like my mom did like a couple charity
[1:06:39] walks and stuff like that for like
[1:06:40] breast cancer like back when I was a
[1:06:42] kid, but I didn't know anybody that
[1:06:44] would run 13.1 miles in a row on purpose
[1:06:47] and pay for it and go do it. So it was
[1:06:49] like I'm so proud of myself at this
[1:06:51] point. And so as soon as I got over like
[1:06:53] a metatarsal fracture that I had like
[1:06:55] right before the race, I ran anyway cuz
[1:06:58] that's what we do.
[1:06:59] >> Yeah.
[1:06:59] >> Um I'm like I like this running thing.
[1:07:02] Let me just keep doing it. So then I
[1:07:04] would just run a little bit more and
[1:07:05] started training and started signing up
[1:07:06] for different stuff. And then eventually
[1:07:08] my cousin was like, "Uh, you're not man.
[1:07:11] You ain't Tommy Guns anymore. You're
[1:07:12] Tommy Runs." And I'm I looked on
[1:07:13] Instagram really quick, put the R in to
[1:07:15] see if it was available and it was so I
[1:07:17] took it.
[1:07:18] >> And that's all she wrote.
[1:07:19] >> That's all she wrote. Now we're sitting.
[1:07:20] >> You were off to the races. Uh, literally
[1:07:22] from that point forward,
[1:07:25] >> um, you've gone on to I mean, how many
[1:07:27] marathons have you run at this point?
[1:07:28] >> 17.
[1:07:29] >> 17. You did all six majors.
[1:07:32] >> Mhm. Did you do that in a single year?
[1:07:34] >> I did run all six majors at the time
[1:07:36] when there was only six still. There was
[1:07:38] the last year there was six. 2024 I did
[1:07:40] all six in a year. I did Osaka marathon
[1:07:43] seven days before Tokyo, which is the
[1:07:44] first marathon major of the year. So I
[1:07:46] did all six in one year, but I had done
[1:07:48] multiple multiple of them many different
[1:07:50] times. But I got my six-star
[1:07:53] medal thing in uh London that year.
[1:07:55] >> Yeah. And your marathon PR is like 246
[1:07:59] or something.
[1:07:59] >> 2469. Yeah.
[1:08:00] >> 246. So, you're quick. You've matured
[1:08:04] into like an excellent marathon runner.
[1:08:07] Now, you're applying your trade on the
[1:08:10] trails.
[1:08:10] >> Yeah.
[1:08:11] >> You've done the Havalina 100. Uh you did
[1:08:14] 100k race also. You uh you did the speed
[1:08:18] project and you recently did Western
[1:08:20] States.
[1:08:20] >> Western States 100. Yep.
[1:08:21] >> Did I get all of them?
[1:08:22] >> Yes, you did.
[1:08:23] >> Yeah. So, uh you stepped into this whole
[1:08:26] other world. along the way at some point
[1:08:29] uh in your running journey, you decided
[1:08:31] to be kind of a content creator in this
[1:08:34] space.
[1:08:35] >> I'm interested in how that evolved like
[1:08:38] this thing that was a very personal kind
[1:08:40] of self-discovery
[1:08:42] >> um relationship with running now becomes
[1:08:44] like a you know kind of a public
[1:08:46] relationship that you're having and now
[1:08:48] it's like a business. you know, it's
[1:08:50] like you're a running influencer, quote
[1:08:52] unquote,
[1:08:53] >> in the best kind of interpretation of
[1:08:56] that phrase that has a kind of porative
[1:08:59] connotation.
[1:09:00] >> When I first started running, I was
[1:09:01] already making like content and stuff
[1:09:03] like on LinkedIn for work. So, I was
[1:09:04] very familiar with like just making
[1:09:06] content, editing videos. So, when I
[1:09:08] started running, I started posting more.
[1:09:11] And the cool part about the sobriety
[1:09:13] thing, going to the gym, and then the
[1:09:16] running was I would share like just what
[1:09:18] I did. and some of the things I was
[1:09:20] doing was so far outside of what people
[1:09:22] that I knew would see on a day-to-day
[1:09:24] basis. People responded to it really
[1:09:26] well. Just like the it wasn't about
[1:09:28] influencer cuz there was no influencers
[1:09:29] to me at like 2019 or 18. But the people
[1:09:32] who give me like little kudos here and
[1:09:34] there saying like, "Oh, wow. This is
[1:09:35] really cool. Keep going. Oh, wow. You're
[1:09:37] a year sober. Great. Keep going." That's
[1:09:39] what I needed. I needed like some of
[1:09:40] that reinforcement that that what I did
[1:09:43] mattered not only to me, but it
[1:09:44] potentially mattered to other people.
[1:09:46] And I just needed that nudge to keep
[1:09:47] pushing. So, like as I that that journey
[1:09:50] went on, I started just getting more,
[1:09:52] you know, just a little better at making
[1:09:53] content and seeing people on YouTube do
[1:09:55] cool videos. So, I tried to make my own
[1:09:56] little cool videos on on Instagram. Um,
[1:10:00] but then after like during 2020, um,
[1:10:04] obviously I mean I was already working
[1:10:05] from home cuz I had already moved back
[1:10:06] here, I mean back to Michigan. So, um, I
[1:10:10] was, you know, I just had a little bit
[1:10:13] more time because everything slowed
[1:10:14] down, work slowed down. So then I
[1:10:16] started, you know, really kind of
[1:10:17] leaning in and making some content. And
[1:10:19] then one thing that I felt I felt like
[1:10:21] that was very prevalent in that moment
[1:10:22] for me is like after like co happened.
[1:10:25] So obviously like life is strange and
[1:10:28] weird and kind of scary because you're
[1:10:30] like who what's next? But then Ahmad
[1:10:33] Arbory, George Floyd, it's like, okay,
[1:10:37] like number one, I as a black man in
[1:10:40] America, I felt very just vulnerable at
[1:10:43] that time
[1:10:44] >> that my job could be just gone because
[1:10:47] of COVID. My life could be gone because
[1:10:49] of, you know, anything or racism.
[1:10:52] >> So, I'm looking at my kids like, if
[1:10:55] something happens to me, what have I
[1:10:56] left behind for them? the fact that I'm
[1:10:58] sober sweet, you know, but I'm like, let
[1:11:01] me start doing something that I feel
[1:11:02] like they can be they can see and
[1:11:05] something that's like a little more
[1:11:06] tangible than just like he was a cool
[1:11:08] guy and he ran or something like that.
[1:11:11] So, I started a um I heard this phrase
[1:11:14] said run eater Pete like years before
[1:11:19] and so I'm like you know I'm about to
[1:11:20] print shirts and make shirts that say
[1:11:21] run sleeper Pete. So that was like my
[1:11:23] like foray into like starting a company
[1:11:26] and having shirts for sale. People liked
[1:11:28] it. People were supporting it. And as I
[1:11:30] was doing that, like my social media
[1:11:31] presence was kind of growing like very
[1:11:33] slowly. But then I'm like, okay, how do
[1:11:36] I sell these shirts? Like what can I do
[1:11:38] around that? And then watching your
[1:11:40] podcast, I'm like, I could do like a
[1:11:41] podcast, right? And so I started doing
[1:11:43] live videos of the Run Eat Sleep show.
[1:11:46] So then I started doing live videos with
[1:11:48] people I knew. I would ask people to be
[1:11:49] on the show and I started interviewing
[1:11:52] like really big names in the industry or
[1:11:54] in the running world as I kind of went
[1:11:56] on. So everything just started like
[1:11:58] growing at that time and I was also
[1:12:00] doing the Tommy Runs thing, also doing
[1:12:01] the show, but I was making a lot of
[1:12:02] contact with brands because of the show.
[1:12:04] So I was just like they were feeding
[1:12:06] each other. Um, and then eventually I
[1:12:08] got to the point where Tommy Runs was
[1:12:09] just doing well enough where me doing
[1:12:12] this show, interviewing other people
[1:12:14] didn't feel like my voice anymore
[1:12:15] because Tommy Runs was my voice and I
[1:12:17] could talk about sobriety and talk about
[1:12:19] the things that I'm feeling, you know,
[1:12:21] on the other side of the world, you
[1:12:22] know, like I was in I was in Tokyo uh
[1:12:26] with my mom cuz she came to on that trip
[1:12:28] to to run the Tokyo Marathon. I was
[1:12:30] there the day like the day that my dad
[1:12:35] that I was the same exact age as my dad
[1:12:37] when he passed like cuz I was very
[1:12:39] familiar. Our birthdays are only 5 days
[1:12:41] apart. So I know like February 19th is
[1:12:44] the day he passed. I know. So I knew on
[1:12:45] this day I'm the exact same age as he
[1:12:47] was, you know. So, like I'm able to
[1:12:50] share that story directly through the
[1:12:52] Tommy Runs thing and I can lean into the
[1:12:55] the the the what I think is potentially
[1:12:58] helpful, maybe very vulnerable but
[1:12:59] helpful for other people in that
[1:13:01] position. And so, I just kept building
[1:13:03] that thing, slowed down on the show and
[1:13:04] leaned more into the Time Runs thing and
[1:13:06] started working with brands because of
[1:13:08] those relationships. That's just been my
[1:13:10] like my journey a little bit.
[1:13:12] >> What is the mission that you're on? Like
[1:13:14] what is the purpose of all of this? It's
[1:13:15] like what are you aiming for or trying
[1:13:18] to accomplish in the in the public
[1:13:20] facing aspect of of running these races
[1:13:23] and training for them and sharing your
[1:13:25] sobriety story?
[1:13:26] >> Um it imposter syndrome going crazy
[1:13:29] right now. um in to inspire people
[1:13:32] through telling my story and doing these
[1:13:34] things like in an authentic way, you
[1:13:36] know, like if I'm if I say yes to doing
[1:13:38] a race, uh it's obviously for me because
[1:13:40] I learned in the program like I have to
[1:13:42] put a lot of my decisions with me first
[1:13:44] in mind to make sure that like what that
[1:13:47] I'm okay and I want to do this and I can
[1:13:48] be um of value to the people around me
[1:13:51] at least. So I have my own like personal
[1:13:53] journeys and like this is why I'm going
[1:13:54] to do that because I want to do it and I
[1:13:56] know that it'll push me to to work hard
[1:13:58] to get there. But then I I share all
[1:14:00] this stuff and um run all these races to
[1:14:06] present like my my vulnerable self to
[1:14:10] people and try to make it look good and
[1:14:13] fun and cool. But if if I can go run
[1:14:18] six or seven marathons in a year or the
[1:14:22] speed project from LA to Las Vegas, you
[1:14:24] know, 340 mi, if that thing kind of
[1:14:28] clicks somebody into being like, "Oh,
[1:14:30] well then I can do like a 5K or 10K or
[1:14:32] whatever or even a marathon, then that's
[1:14:35] what, you know, that helped him doing
[1:14:37] that helped me
[1:14:37] >> you know, pass past the drive-thru on
[1:14:40] the way home or like the whole bag of
[1:14:42] chips. It's like it doesn't have to be
[1:14:44] running, you know?
[1:14:44] >> No, it doesn't have to be.
[1:14:46] >> Inspiration is transferable.
[1:14:47] >> Yeah. So, it's like if if I can just be
[1:14:49] real open and honest in this journey and
[1:14:52] do things that kind of light me up, then
[1:14:54] I want to inspire people along the way.
[1:14:56] And some of that like when I started
[1:14:58] that company and selling clothes and
[1:14:59] stuff like that, that was also like in a
[1:15:01] way it's like what can I do that makes
[1:15:03] me feel good enough that I can position
[1:15:06] this and share in a way that someone
[1:15:08] else can be inspired in some way. And
[1:15:11] but that also goes back to the sobriety
[1:15:13] thing is is just people sharing their
[1:15:16] stories. They weren't doing it for me.
[1:15:17] They weren't sharing their their drunken
[1:15:19] story for me and their 20 years of
[1:15:21] sobriety for me.
[1:15:22] >> Yeah.
[1:15:22] >> But them being real and open and showing
[1:15:25] like the the process that they went
[1:15:26] through, that's what inspired me to
[1:15:28] change my life and saved my life.
[1:15:30] >> Let's talk about representation. When I
[1:15:32] asked you about your mission, you know,
[1:15:34] a big piece of this is is is about
[1:15:37] representation. like, you know, what is
[1:15:39] the the black community's relationship
[1:15:41] to running generally, to the marathon
[1:15:44] space, and now more recently the trail
[1:15:47] space?
[1:15:48] >> Um, so I'll just speak from like my
[1:15:50] perspective. Most of us didn't grow up
[1:15:52] seeing running done as a hobby um or for
[1:15:56] fun or for health or for whatever. We
[1:15:58] just we thought like we've always
[1:16:00] thought that, you know, running and
[1:16:02] jogging is a white people thing to do.
[1:16:04] >> Yeah. I listened to the podcast that you
[1:16:06] did with our friend Zack Clark. Yeah.
[1:16:08] >> And you're like, "No offense, like
[1:16:10] jogging is a white people thing."
[1:16:11] >> Yeah, it is. You know, I mean, it was.
[1:16:13] And that's what at least that's what our
[1:16:14] perspective was on it cuz um we just
[1:16:17] didn't we just didn't grow up seeing
[1:16:18] that like in our in our areas and
[1:16:20] neighborhoods. Um and if we did, it was
[1:16:22] it was definitely not somebody that
[1:16:23] looked like us. So, you know, as I
[1:16:26] started running 2018, you know, I'd go
[1:16:29] to some of these races and um it was
[1:16:32] wasn't terrible, but it was still like
[1:16:34] very much um an outlier thing to do as a
[1:16:37] as a as a black man in this in in
[1:16:38] America to be like running marathons.
[1:16:40] And I know that there's plenty of people
[1:16:41] that were doing it before us, but that's
[1:16:43] just like, you know, you come into these
[1:16:45] races and you don't feel represented.
[1:16:46] Well,
[1:16:47] >> what's interesting about that is, you
[1:16:50] know, at the elite level, the highest
[1:16:52] level of performance from the 100 meters
[1:16:54] to the marathon, it's dominated by black
[1:16:57] people.
[1:16:57] >> Yeah.
[1:16:58] >> But then like
[1:16:58] >> that's not trickling down participation
[1:17:01] level.
[1:17:01] >> I mean, okay, like you're not jogging
[1:17:03] with Noah Li, you know, like
[1:17:05] >> he's not jogging, you know, but like but
[1:17:07] then on the other side, like when you
[1:17:09] talk about the marathons, I mean, they
[1:17:10] are black folks, but they're also just
[1:17:13] different. I mean they're they're you
[1:17:15] know just from they're different
[1:17:16] different countries. They're born in
[1:17:18] different circumstances and that doesn't
[1:17:20] necessarily like that just doesn't
[1:17:22] resonate with you know people from
[1:17:24] Chicago or Detroit or whatever you know
[1:17:27] it's just not it's not us still in some
[1:17:29] way like we're just like oh that's them
[1:17:30] cuz they're from Kenya or whatever.
[1:17:32] >> So it just there's a disconnect there
[1:17:34] when it when you when in reality there
[1:17:36] really shouldn't be cuz it should be
[1:17:37] like oh that's obvious we we should be
[1:17:38] able to do that. Um, but as I like
[1:17:41] started to run and and grow in that
[1:17:43] space more and then 2020 happened and
[1:17:44] then Black Lives Matter happened, then
[1:17:47] people are starting to like we're
[1:17:48] starting to gain steam, people are
[1:17:49] inside or like, you know, not going to
[1:17:52] work necessarily, so they have more time
[1:17:54] to try to find recreation. So, we saw
[1:17:56] that running boom and black people were
[1:17:57] involved in that. And then you have, you
[1:17:59] know, people that are out like really
[1:18:01] pushing forward like uh Allison Deir,
[1:18:03] like shout out to her, you know, like
[1:18:05] people like that were like outside like
[1:18:07] talking about these issues and how, you
[1:18:10] know, the running community or running
[1:18:11] industry needs to to open and at least,
[1:18:15] you know, make space for this to be a
[1:18:17] path, you know, and as that happened,
[1:18:20] you know, you got run clubs popping up
[1:18:22] shouts like we run 313 in Detroit and
[1:18:24] all these big run huge run clubs right
[1:18:27] now. It's like started in those in like
[1:18:29] around that time and
[1:18:31] >> gave black people um a space to come and
[1:18:34] hang out and run two, three, four, 10
[1:18:36] miles, whatever that felt like this is
[1:18:39] our thing and we do belong at least in
[1:18:41] this spot. And so the more you saw that
[1:18:43] happen, the more you saw that trickle
[1:18:44] into like 5ks, 10ks, marathons. And as
[1:18:47] I'm going through like my marathon
[1:18:49] journey and sharing it intentionally,
[1:18:51] um, not being like, hey, I'm the only
[1:18:53] black person here, but it's like, hey,
[1:18:54] I'm here and here's the process that I
[1:18:57] went through and sharing it in a way
[1:18:58] that I think looks cool. And then you
[1:19:00] start seeing more and more people um,
[1:19:02] gravitate towards like, okay, marathon's
[1:19:04] next and let's what are we going to do?
[1:19:06] And as I saw like that thing happen, now
[1:19:09] that I've like kind of stepped into
[1:19:11] trail, I just walking into a running
[1:19:15] space that doesn't mirror or even
[1:19:19] closely resemble the progress that's
[1:19:21] happened on the road feels very um
[1:19:27] it feels intentional. It feels like like
[1:19:32] how is this possible, right? You know,
[1:19:34] like how is this happening? I mean, the
[1:19:36] trail, you know, racing, running world
[1:19:39] is is about as white as it gets.
[1:19:41] >> Yeah. So, and in being closer to it,
[1:19:44] like from from the outside looking in,
[1:19:45] it's like, oh, this is intentional for
[1:19:47] sure. But then you get closer to it and
[1:19:50] you know, you maybe talk to the right
[1:19:51] people and you start seeing like what
[1:19:53] the what the actual intention is, but
[1:19:56] maybe there's not enough paths or like
[1:20:00] whatever tools for this to change
[1:20:03] rapidly. So, as I'm like in this space,
[1:20:06] I'm like, how can I what can I do to
[1:20:10] like help this? Because I feel like I
[1:20:12] was I helped a bit like on the roadside
[1:20:14] just by sharing like my journey and
[1:20:16] pushing forward and speaking on podcast
[1:20:19] and sharing like my perspective on like
[1:20:21] what black running is and what like the
[1:20:23] black experiences are at these races and
[1:20:25] traveling around the world. um how can I
[1:20:27] mimic that or like lean into that
[1:20:30] feeling of not only you know showing or
[1:20:34] making a statement that that shows that
[1:20:37] there's so much room to grow here but
[1:20:39] doing it in a way that's pulling people
[1:20:42] in um and not necessarily speaking at
[1:20:46] the like not avoiding the issue but not
[1:20:50] but all my focus is on how do I make
[1:20:54] connections for like someone that's in
[1:20:56] Atlanta, what if I post a video or a
[1:20:59] picture or a shirt that makes somebody
[1:21:01] say like, "I want to support that, but I
[1:21:03] don't run on trails, so let me go find a
[1:21:06] trail." Or, "Oh, if Tommy just ran
[1:21:09] Western States, I don't even know what
[1:21:10] Western States is or like why it's
[1:21:12] important, but it seems like it's
[1:21:13] important. I can find a trail near me."
[1:21:15] And I'm not necessarily saying like we
[1:21:17] all need to be out there, but the fact
[1:21:19] that it's it's definitely it's just so
[1:21:22] much different than road. Like you don't
[1:21:24] run for 5 miles on the road and then go,
[1:21:26] "Oh, wow. Look at this." Like it's like
[1:21:28] >> Yeah.
[1:21:28] >> You know, it's it I was listening to
[1:21:30] Oprah Pod that she did the other day and
[1:21:34] she was talking about hiking is her
[1:21:35] favorite thing to do right now. And she
[1:21:38] said that like you don't look at the
[1:21:40] where you're going. You don't look at
[1:21:41] the top of it the whole time. You just
[1:21:42] kind of head down doing your thing and
[1:21:43] every like 10 minutes or so you can like
[1:21:45] look backwards to see how far you how
[1:21:48] far you've come. And when you run these
[1:21:49] trail races, like if it's a long enough
[1:21:52] race, you could run for 10 minutes, 15
[1:21:54] minutes, and if you can look around, the
[1:21:58] view changes so often that it's so like
[1:22:02] you find yourself looking at things that
[1:22:04] you never dreamed that you that you'd
[1:22:06] see. And I want that experience for as
[1:22:09] many people as possible, especially
[1:22:10] people of of color that like grew up
[1:22:13] that didn't think that they'd ever see
[1:22:16] themselves on a mountain.
[1:22:17] >> Mhm. [clears throat] I said on a on a
[1:22:19] panel once, it was like we did a little
[1:22:22] a shakeout run um for Trailcon last year
[1:22:25] and it's a four mile run. It's not very
[1:22:27] far, you know, it's just four miles and
[1:22:29] you get to the top of that thing. It's
[1:22:30] like right up near the escarment and you
[1:22:32] turn around and you look and you see
[1:22:33] views that I that a picture just a phone
[1:22:38] couldn't capture the beauty of this
[1:22:40] thing. And so if I can share
[1:22:43] my journey that would make someone
[1:22:45] potentially want to find that in their
[1:22:47] way, that's like what I have to do.
[1:22:49] >> Yeah. It's very much uh attraction, not
[1:22:53] promotion. You know, it's kind of a
[1:22:54] recovery principle. You're not trying to
[1:22:57] convince people that this is what they
[1:22:59] should do. You're kind of modeling the
[1:23:01] aspiration of doing it yourself as a
[1:23:03] magnet to attract more people and and
[1:23:06] demonstrate that it's possible. But when
[1:23:08] I think about why the trail community is
[1:23:12] the way that it is, I mean, you you use
[1:23:14] the word, you know, intentional. I mean,
[1:23:16] what are the the barriers to access are
[1:23:19] economic, obviously, there's proximity
[1:23:21] to trails, you know, for communities
[1:23:23] that are in urban environments, etc.
[1:23:25] There's not seeing somebody that they
[1:23:28] recognize or, you know, feel like
[1:23:31] represents who they are in this
[1:23:33] community. And now you're very much like
[1:23:35] serving that role for a lot of people.
[1:23:38] What are the other factors that you
[1:23:39] think have contributed to this? And and
[1:23:42] beyond what you're doing individually,
[1:23:45] >> what are the solutions
[1:23:46] >> to diversifying this sport? Because it
[1:23:49] started so granola. It's not like like
[1:23:51] these were cheap races. Nobody was
[1:23:52] signing up for them. Now there's a lot
[1:23:54] of money in it. It's very different. But
[1:23:56] um but it's not like
[1:23:59] you know lacrosse or hockey or you know
[1:24:02] or cycling or something that you know
[1:24:04] there's a there's a there's a huge
[1:24:05] capital expenditure involved except that
[1:24:07] there's having to travel to these places
[1:24:09] and that's obviously expensive.
[1:24:11] >> Yeah. I mean so I think it's just the
[1:24:14] some of the solution is like back to
[1:24:15] intention you know like it's um I'm a
[1:24:19] brand like guy like work with brands so
[1:24:21] it's it's a lot of my thought when I see
[1:24:23] like some of these spaces the community
[1:24:25] itself plays a big role in like how much
[1:24:28] they're like trying to extend that net
[1:24:30] or like the the like how much are you
[1:24:32] trying to show that this is an option
[1:24:34] like and attract people in but then
[1:24:36] you're also like I also look at the at
[1:24:38] the some of these uh the brands I mean
[1:24:40] because
[1:24:41] you know how it works like you choose
[1:24:43] some brands they go on a trip to Tahoe
[1:24:46] or whatever there's they're making a
[1:24:48] choice of who they want to be there and
[1:24:51] it seems like really simple and little
[1:24:53] but like you know I'm not saying every
[1:24:55] brand invite me somewhere but like if
[1:24:57] there's people that are already in trail
[1:25:00] and they may not be the biggest trail
[1:25:02] influencer in the world
[1:25:05] it's it's it's a vote to be like you
[1:25:07] know we I do want trail as a brand I do
[1:25:09] want trail to look different. I do want
[1:25:11] Trail to represent our customer base. I
[1:25:13] do want Trail to feel like everyone
[1:25:17] should be able to experience something
[1:25:18] like this. So, our vote as a brand is to
[1:25:21] make sure that we're finding authentic
[1:25:23] people that are really into this thing,
[1:25:25] but then they also serve as a catalyst
[1:25:29] or like uh people that will open the
[1:25:31] aperture of a community to be like, hey,
[1:25:33] you know, that's an option, too. because
[1:25:35] I think you know there's obviously some
[1:25:37] some economic issues of how or in
[1:25:39] proximity of trail and all that stuff
[1:25:42] but there's also a lack of or has been a
[1:25:46] lack of a communication of like the
[1:25:50] possibilities of it just period because
[1:25:52] two years ago
[1:25:54] >> I didn't see if you can see it
[1:25:59] >> and you're interested you you you'll
[1:26:01] make it happen you know like you can
[1:26:03] make it happen at least So I think that
[1:26:05] it just has to be more of a vote and a
[1:26:07] real thought like let's look back at
[1:26:09] road in 2019 2020 2021 and how much
[1:26:14] brands leaned in to making sure that
[1:26:16] that row was more diverse and these
[1:26:18] races are more diverse in the in um
[1:26:20] advertising and brand trips and blah
[1:26:22] blah blah blah. That was a very
[1:26:24] strategic effort, you know, on them in
[1:26:26] response to a lot of pressure, but they
[1:26:29] responded decent to it. So like maybe we
[1:26:33] should think about for trail let's
[1:26:36] implement some of that and lean into as
[1:26:38] a community whether it's brand whether
[1:26:40] it's um uh organizations whether it's
[1:26:43] conferences how do you lean into like we
[1:26:46] want this place to look like you know
[1:26:49] what we want a random trail race in the
[1:26:52] you know close to Chicago to look
[1:26:54] >> you know cuz this isn't about getting
[1:26:57] more people to one spot or like one race
[1:27:00] and access to western states or trail
[1:27:02] con or broken air like that's a separate
[1:27:06] that's like an entity within itself like
[1:27:07] that's an isolated thing but there there
[1:27:10] is access to these to trails much closer
[1:27:13] than that and much cheaper than going to
[1:27:15] fly to Tahoe California
[1:27:17] >> sure I mean most urban areas have some
[1:27:19] kind of natural preserve situation that
[1:27:22] isn't that far away
[1:27:24] >> but it's also a mindset thing like the
[1:27:26] idea of like I'm an urban dweller this
[1:27:27] is my environment like I I don't belong
[1:27:30] in those spaces like it's a it's before
[1:27:34] you even get into trail running it's
[1:27:36] like oh just like I'm going to go for a
[1:27:38] walk in a nearby forest.
[1:27:40] >> Yeah.
[1:27:40] >> You know could be a leap for you know a
[1:27:43] certain a certain person who was raised
[1:27:46] um to believe a certain thing about like
[1:27:48] who they are.
[1:27:49] >> Yeah. Like we like when I came here it's
[1:27:51] it's you know I see a mountain close by.
[1:27:55] Two years ago I would have just saw a
[1:27:57] mountain like just that just happened.
[1:27:59] whatever. I don't care. But as soon as I
[1:28:01] see it now, I'm seeing like, oh, maybe I
[1:28:03] should look on on on an app to find out
[1:28:05] if there's a trail or not. And I think
[1:28:06] that that's like that little switch of
[1:28:09] there's a there's a potential really
[1:28:11] cool view or like a really good workout
[1:28:13] that could be had if I just find a
[1:28:15] trail. And a lot of people just don't
[1:28:16] have that. Like if if you I don't even
[1:28:19] know all the trails in my area, you
[1:28:21] know? And there's people that have been
[1:28:23] in trail that would be like, "Yo, bro,
[1:28:24] there's a trail 15 minutes from you.
[1:28:25] Like what do you mean?" And that to me
[1:28:28] is just saying like let's open up like
[1:28:30] the the direct like line to like this is
[1:28:33] a possibility and if even if you only
[1:28:35] run on trail like once a whatever or you
[1:28:38] don't
[1:28:39] >> it just it should be an option or an
[1:28:41] unlock there and I think that that's the
[1:28:43] way towards progress is opening that
[1:28:47] thought up to to as many people as
[1:28:49] possible so they can decide how far they
[1:28:51] want to go when we push for like more
[1:28:53] people to more black folks and brown
[1:28:55] folks to be on on the road at these
[1:28:56] marathons. That doesn't mean, you know,
[1:28:59] everybody that was inspired by that
[1:29:01] doesn't mean that they ran a marathon,
[1:29:03] but they might have started going to
[1:29:04] their their local run club. They might
[1:29:06] have just decided to get to run by
[1:29:08] themselves and get healthy. But how do
[1:29:10] we just like get that rolling and get
[1:29:12] that momentum as a people and as a
[1:29:14] community?
[1:29:15] >> Were you the only black person running
[1:29:17] Western States? No, there was only a
[1:29:20] few. But I don't I don't know all of the
[1:29:22] people, but I think there was at least I
[1:29:23] can't remember if I saw any other black
[1:29:25] person at Trail Con other than you.
[1:29:27] >> Oh, okay. Well, Trailcon was a little
[1:29:29] different. Um Trail uh I was the only
[1:29:32] person that was I think that was like
[1:29:34] speak that spoke at Trailcon this year.
[1:29:36] Um that was black and there were like a
[1:29:38] lady that I know that was there. She was
[1:29:40] black. She counted I think it was like
[1:29:41] four of us at Trailcon
[1:29:43] >> and then probably less than
[1:29:45] >> thousands of people that attended that
[1:29:47] event. the Trailcon part and some of the
[1:29:50] Western States part. To me, that's it.
[1:29:53] The brands have a lot to do with that. I
[1:29:56] think, you know, there's a they spend a
[1:29:58] lot of money to be sponsors to these to
[1:30:00] these things. Yeah. It's become a very
[1:30:02] commodified event like all the vendors
[1:30:04] and like you know, ACG had a huge like
[1:30:07] presence there like every brand was
[1:30:09] showing up at Trailcon like and you know
[1:30:12] they're investing money in this space
[1:30:14] like it's a very commercial prospect
[1:30:16] right now. Yeah. And so, but like in
[1:30:18] that, you know, if a brand's a big
[1:30:20] sponsor, they're not it's not just them.
[1:30:22] They're bringing people with them.
[1:30:23] They're we know this influencer market
[1:30:25] is what it is. They're they've got five
[1:30:27] 10 people there just making content,
[1:30:29] having fun, running the races, being
[1:30:31] involved in the in the in the
[1:30:32] conference. So, it's like at that
[1:30:34] moment, I think that's the decision.
[1:30:35] That's the point where it's like, okay,
[1:30:37] like where how can we make that part
[1:30:39] look a little different too
[1:30:40] intentionally? that I think that's the
[1:30:43] move, you know, for some of these bigger
[1:30:45] moments is like how do we vote in the
[1:30:48] right direction? And it's not a
[1:30:49] diversity. It's not like a oh, let's um
[1:30:52] it's not a DEI thing. This is just like
[1:30:55] what do you want trail to be and look
[1:30:57] like? Do you want it just to be what
[1:30:58] it's always been? Do you or do you want
[1:31:00] to see some of the progress and
[1:31:02] innovation that's happened on the road
[1:31:04] when it comes to like run clubs and
[1:31:06] race, different types of races,
[1:31:07] different types of brands, uh making
[1:31:09] different types of clothes and apparel.
[1:31:11] All that came because just more people
[1:31:13] from different backgrounds were
[1:31:14] attracted to it. And we've seen the
[1:31:16] running boom because of so many
[1:31:18] different people. It wasn't because
[1:31:20] running stayed the same.
[1:31:21] >> So if you look at trail like how can we
[1:31:24] bring more more people from some thought
[1:31:26] they would be there forever, some never
[1:31:28] even imagined it, but those two people
[1:31:30] come together.
[1:31:32] It's it the possibility is like kind of
[1:31:35] endless.
[1:31:36] >> Sure. that was the topic of at least one
[1:31:39] panel at Trail Con. Like there's a lot
[1:31:41] of uh discourse around like what's
[1:31:44] happening to the Trail community. You
[1:31:47] know, it's it's grown obviously.
[1:31:49] >> Um but you know, there's a
[1:31:51] romanticization of like the early days
[1:31:54] where you would pitch your tent at the
[1:31:56] starting line and it was you know, a
[1:31:57] couple guys in vans or whatever and now
[1:32:00] it is what it is today. Is this moving
[1:32:02] in the right direction? Is it not? Like
[1:32:04] there are protectionists like we need to
[1:32:06] protect the purity of this culture and
[1:32:08] then there are opportunists on the other
[1:32:10] side of that spectrum who are like
[1:32:12] looking at like the financial
[1:32:15] >> opportunities that are available here.
[1:32:17] And in the middle there's like you know
[1:32:20] a variety of opinions about like what
[1:32:22] this community should look like and what
[1:32:23] trail running should represent etc. But
[1:32:26] the community is dictated by the people
[1:32:29] who are participating in that community.
[1:32:31] It's not dictated from above like this
[1:32:33] is who we are and what we are. It's like
[1:32:35] the people who inhabit the ecosystem are
[1:32:38] the ones who get to decide that and
[1:32:40] unless you are onboarding a diversity of
[1:32:43] voices, it's going to you know remain
[1:32:45] stagnant and kind of stuck in what it
[1:32:48] was before and it's missing out on what
[1:32:51] it could be by you know virtue of having
[1:32:54] a variety of perspectives.
[1:32:57] >> Yeah. Because like the more the you know
[1:32:58] to the people that like are are
[1:33:00] romanticizing like the old days and
[1:33:02] keeping some of these things you know so
[1:33:04] pure. Um I understand that like it's I
[1:33:07] mean I get that I get
[1:33:08] >> and there are certain races that
[1:33:09] probably will always stay that way like
[1:33:11] Barkley Marathons is never going to
[1:33:12] change. You know
[1:33:13] >> somebody's like would you run Barkley?
[1:33:15] Hell no. [laughter] Right. Like so
[1:33:16] >> I'm not ridiculous. Um, but it's like to
[1:33:19] those people that like are trying to
[1:33:20] like hold on to that, the running boom
[1:33:24] has showed us that like if you don't
[1:33:25] open the door to new voices, the way
[1:33:29] that things are going with social media,
[1:33:30] it's going to happen. They're going to
[1:33:32] they're going to people are going to
[1:33:33] start running trail regardless whether
[1:33:34] you invite them or not, you know, or if
[1:33:36] you if they feel welcome by you or not.
[1:33:39] And so if you feel like a like a real
[1:33:41] like trail trail purist and you want
[1:33:43] people to take care of the trail and you
[1:33:44] want people to to make sure that they're
[1:33:46] like respecting like nature and all
[1:33:48] these different things, you should
[1:33:50] openly be a part of the growth of the
[1:33:52] sport instead of like clinging to like
[1:33:55] we can't do this because of the you know
[1:33:57] all these reasons. open up a bit and
[1:33:59] realize that you could be like the the
[1:34:01] the generation or the people that help
[1:34:04] guide this growth in a way that stays
[1:34:07] and maintains like this this purity of I
[1:34:10] mean because we are in nature. It's not
[1:34:11] like we're just running down the street
[1:34:12] and there's some rules and guidelines
[1:34:14] that you should follow, you know, just
[1:34:17] because it's we're running on on on on
[1:34:21] borrowed land or taken land, you know,
[1:34:23] and so we should respect these things.
[1:34:25] And if you decide that you don't want
[1:34:28] this group to come because they are
[1:34:30] different, then they're probably going
[1:34:33] to do whatever they think is best for
[1:34:35] them at that moment. And that may not be
[1:34:38] in line with what some of the things
[1:34:39] you're trying to say. And then so it's
[1:34:41] just going to happen anyway.
[1:34:43] >> Is there anything else that we should we
[1:34:45] should talk about when we're talking
[1:34:47] about u representation and inclusion?
[1:34:50] Like have I even asked like the right
[1:34:52] questions? Is there something that I'm
[1:34:54] missing?
[1:34:55] >> No, I don't think so. I'm like you said
[1:34:57] earlier, I'm very much on that like I'm
[1:35:00] going on my journey and I know that I
[1:35:03] repres I know what I represent and I
[1:35:04] know who I am and so I intentionally
[1:35:07] just share
[1:35:09] because of that.
[1:35:10] >> And I'm not
[1:35:13] like I'm not as well verssed on all the
[1:35:16] things that are like the way to move a
[1:35:18] culture and a movement forward. I just
[1:35:20] know that, you know, if I can use what I
[1:35:23] have in my and the leverage that I have
[1:35:25] with brands or the relationships that I
[1:35:27] have with brands, then I'll just try to
[1:35:28] push um in that way. Cuz if I can maybe
[1:35:33] risk or like maybe not jeopardize, but
[1:35:36] if I can use some of those things that I
[1:35:38] have to say like, oh, hey, can we get a
[1:35:39] couple people couple more people invited
[1:35:41] to this space that wouldn't necessarily
[1:35:43] be invited by you? But just the fact
[1:35:45] that there's this, you know, dude with
[1:35:47] dreadlocks who's like running western
[1:35:49] states and every every other dude kind
[1:35:51] of looks like the same guy. Yeah.
[1:35:53] >> You know, a skinny guy with a probably
[1:35:55] with a mustache and you know,
[1:35:57] >> some good mustaches.
[1:35:58] >> Yeah. And you know, listen, nothing but
[1:36:00] love, but uh you know, I think it's
[1:36:02] really powerful. It's it's like you
[1:36:04] don't
[1:36:04] >> like just your being there, you know, is
[1:36:07] is making a statement louder than
[1:36:10] anything you could put into words. And
[1:36:12] it's it's powerful. Like if I if I could
[1:36:14] say like what I would love to recreate,
[1:36:16] I guess the feeling of or the thought of
[1:36:18] was like when I did uh the speed project
[1:36:20] in uh early 2025. Going into that thing,
[1:36:24] what I saw was who does this race if
[1:36:27] they do it solo is is like white and
[1:36:31] super tatted and really cool looking,
[1:36:33] you know. But then there was a guy named
[1:36:34] Malcolm who who was the second person to
[1:36:37] do like the OG 340 mi route. He's a
[1:36:40] black dude from from New York. explain
[1:36:42] what uh the Speed Project is for people
[1:36:44] that don't know before we get too deep
[1:36:46] into this.
[1:36:47] >> Speed Project is a unsanctioned
[1:36:50] um race from Santa Monica Pier to the
[1:36:53] Las Vegas the old the welcome to Las
[1:36:55] Vegas sign in Las Vegas, Nevada. It's a
[1:36:57] the original route that they did was 340
[1:37:00] mi um on foot and but there are no rules
[1:37:04] as well. So like there's relay teams
[1:37:06] that do it. It's a mainly a relay race.
[1:37:08] >> Most people do it. most people
[1:37:10] >> by relay because it's 340 miles, right?
[1:37:12] So, how many people solo it? And
[1:37:15] >> when you say there's no rules, like it
[1:37:18] doesn't even matter like what route you
[1:37:20] take to get there. Like people are
[1:37:21] taking all different kinds of routes.
[1:37:22] >> Yeah. So, there's only only like I guess
[1:37:24] technically there's only one route and
[1:37:25] it's like the OG route
[1:37:27] >> that's like if you're going to say you
[1:37:29] did the OG, this is the route you have
[1:37:31] to go. Any other thing is shorter if you
[1:37:33] can find a way to do it while being
[1:37:34] safe, not on the, you know, whatever.
[1:37:36] Um, you just get to go. So it can be as
[1:37:38] it can be as short as 200 like high high
[1:37:41] 200s or as long as 340 or unless you get
[1:37:44] lost it could be more I guess. But he
[1:37:46] had done Malcolm had done the 340 mile
[1:37:48] route solo and he was the second person
[1:37:51] to have done that OG route and not gone
[1:37:53] like through some of the other ways that
[1:37:54] people have like carved into this thing
[1:37:56] now. and he was really instrumental in
[1:38:00] like once he found out that I was going
[1:38:01] to do it, he like I met him before in
[1:38:03] like the marathon scene, but he hit me
[1:38:05] up and was like he was really helpful
[1:38:07] and like for me and my crew. Um, so he
[1:38:09] kind of like gave us gave me the the
[1:38:12] like audacity to like continue to push
[1:38:14] for this and make sure I showed up. Like
[1:38:16] one thing he said was like don't come to
[1:38:18] this thing and then just kind of fit in
[1:38:20] with whatever. Be Tommy runs like all
[1:38:22] the way, you know? That's kind of the
[1:38:24] ethos of the whole event. Like you said,
[1:38:26] like lots of tatted guys. Like
[1:38:28] >> there's a panache to this event that's
[1:38:30] very different from the traditional
[1:38:33] trail world. Like this is like it's very
[1:38:35] punk rock.
[1:38:36] >> Yeah, it is. It feels like and he helped
[1:38:39] me by just being him
[1:38:41] >> um and being being useful like re
[1:38:43] resource-wise and knowledge. But then
[1:38:45] when I went about it, I made sure like I
[1:38:47] lived up to like that part. I was like,
[1:38:49] I've been Tommy runs this whole time. I
[1:38:50] did this on the road already. just make
[1:38:52] sure you pull up and be you like fully.
[1:38:54] And we captured it and made a little
[1:38:56] documentary and everything about it. The
[1:38:58] cool part,
[1:38:58] >> you're saying that with a lot of
[1:39:00] humility like that documentary is
[1:39:01] incredible.
[1:39:02] >> Oh, thank you.
[1:39:02] >> Yeah. Yeah. I watched it for a second
[1:39:04] time um this morning.
[1:39:06] >> It's really well done. It's beautiful
[1:39:07] and it really illustrates
[1:39:10] the odyssey of this race and the highs
[1:39:14] and lows. like you just go to the depths
[1:39:16] of your capabilities uh and you're being
[1:39:19] tested, you know, to the fullest extent
[1:39:21] uh you know, possible. And it's all
[1:39:24] illustrated and beautifully beautifully
[1:39:26] filmed. So, I encourage everybody to to
[1:39:28] check out that documentary. I'll link it
[1:39:30] up in the show notes and stuff.
[1:39:31] >> And it was called and I called the hero.
[1:39:33] And I knew I was going to call a hero
[1:39:34] before, but it was really just it wasn't
[1:39:36] necessarily like I'm about to go be a
[1:39:37] hero, but it was that moment of um that
[1:39:40] storyline of like we all have to be like
[1:39:44] the hero of our of our own stories at
[1:39:46] some point. And we all did it at some
[1:39:48] point whether we decided to like I'm
[1:39:50] going to lose weight or I'm going to get
[1:39:52] sober or I'm going to start a company.
[1:39:54] Those moments where we had to decide to
[1:39:56] like no longer be the villain victim or
[1:39:59] guide for someone else. We had to be the
[1:40:01] hero ourselves. And me telling me doing
[1:40:06] this and like sharing my sobriety story
[1:40:08] and walk this whole time was just me
[1:40:10] deciding at one point I had to be like
[1:40:11] the hero of this journey and that
[1:40:13] hopefully people would watch it and
[1:40:15] decide to be the hero of theirs in some
[1:40:17] way.
[1:40:18] >> But the way that I shared it
[1:40:19] intentionally was like I'm like told the
[1:40:20] guy um this dude named Olu he shot it
[1:40:22] was his first time making a feature like
[1:40:24] a feature length film. Oh wow. He did
[1:40:25] just a phenomenal job. Like it's crazy.
[1:40:28] I never had didn't meet him until the
[1:40:30] day that we met in Santa Monica or I met
[1:40:32] him before at TR. He took some pictures
[1:40:33] of me. That's how that's how I knew
[1:40:35] about him. But spent six days, seven
[1:40:37] days with us. Um, but I told that story
[1:40:40] like that openly and show I mean, please
[1:40:43] don't get all the highlights like show
[1:40:46] all the all the crap that's like makes
[1:40:47] it challenging. And then fast forward,
[1:40:49] reason why I brought it up is cuz like
[1:40:51] this year, shout out to a d young dude
[1:40:53] named Mitchie Paul from from uh from
[1:40:55] Boston. He ran, he's the fourth person
[1:40:57] to do uh the OG route, a a young black
[1:41:00] guy from Boston. And uh it was like he
[1:41:04] did it because he saw me do it. And I
[1:41:07] also felt like that's it was cool
[1:41:09] because I also showed everything that I
[1:41:12] had to show. So it wasn't like I vainly
[1:41:15] inspired him. I showed them all the
[1:41:16] [ __ ] And if you feel like you're
[1:41:20] watching what I'm doing and and I share
[1:41:22] my story, whether it's sobriety or being
[1:41:23] black in space content creating or
[1:41:25] whatever, I want you to be inspired by
[1:41:29] something I do, but for the right
[1:41:30] reasons. And
[1:41:32] >> the inspiration doesn't come from uh
[1:41:35] this this idea that you're out crushing
[1:41:39] it. Like, you're you're just so beaten
[1:41:42] up, dude. Like, it's shocking that you
[1:41:44] finished this race. like you're so far
[1:41:46] away from Vegas and you can't even walk,
[1:41:49] you know, and you've just got like an
[1:41:50] insane number of miles left before
[1:41:52] you're going to get there.
[1:41:54] >> And the inspiration is like how did he
[1:41:56] even like
[1:41:58] >> complete this thing? Like you were just
[1:42:00] absolutely broken. That's what I wanted
[1:42:03] to show because that to me is the same
[1:42:06] story as as us or me in sobriety because
[1:42:09] you're just like like shredded to pieces
[1:42:12] at some point and like how do you
[1:42:15] continue like how do you keep keep going
[1:42:17] and how do you make make that decision
[1:42:20] for yourself even though like
[1:42:21] everything's telling you to stop or
[1:42:23] saying that you can't make it or can't
[1:42:25] do it.
[1:42:25] >> So how do you do that?
[1:42:28] To me, it's like that
[1:42:31] somewhere you you've you've made some
[1:42:34] decision that you're willing to go as
[1:42:38] far as you possibly can and then a
[1:42:41] little bit more. Partially because, you
[1:42:44] know, I feel like I owe it to myself to
[1:42:46] go farther than I thought and dig deeper
[1:42:50] than I thought I could because I don't
[1:42:52] think I'll ever be as low even in that
[1:42:54] whole dock. I'll never be as low as I
[1:42:56] was in those last like couple years of
[1:42:58] sobriety. Just never. I don't care if
[1:43:01] I'm choosing to do this. Like it's my I
[1:43:04] want to do this. It may be terrible in
[1:43:06] that moment, but I got to remind myself
[1:43:07] that I can go further because like this
[1:43:09] is what I decided to do.
[1:43:10] >> To me, what you did and the documentary
[1:43:14] that you made about that journey is a
[1:43:18] living breathing document. It's the
[1:43:20] embodiment of this idea I believe in
[1:43:22] that we're all so much more capable than
[1:43:25] we allow ourselves to believe and that
[1:43:27] our darkest moments and our depths of
[1:43:30] despair and our trauma are actually
[1:43:33] engines of change and transformation.
[1:43:35] >> Yeah, you want we can redo the
[1:43:37] documentary. You could narrate it.
[1:43:39] [laughter]
[1:43:39] >> No, I it's perfect as it is, dude. Yeah,
[1:43:43] it really illustrates those are the
[1:43:44] themes, you know, that come across for
[1:43:46] me
[1:43:47] >> that these low moments are not things to
[1:43:50] be ashamed of. They're things to be
[1:43:52] leveraged.
[1:43:52] >> Yeah.
[1:43:53] >> Um and the way that you do that is the
[1:43:57] way that you get sober one day at a
[1:43:59] time, one foot in front of the other.
[1:44:02] What's the next right thing to do?
[1:44:04] What's the contrary action to take? and
[1:44:07] cultivating this familiarity, this
[1:44:09] relationship with discomfort as a friend
[1:44:12] rather than something to avoid.
[1:44:14] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this like this
[1:44:16] choosing the the uncomfortable thing to
[1:44:19] do when you know it's against your lower
[1:44:21] nature is like if I could say that to
[1:44:24] myself over and over, I think I'd still
[1:44:26] even be a better person. if you can
[1:44:28] choose to lean into that like that thing
[1:44:30] that's saying you really should do this
[1:44:31] even though you don't want to, you know,
[1:44:33] that's what I lacked for so long, you
[1:44:35] know, and that's why I, you know,
[1:44:37] essentially like hated myself and who I
[1:44:39] was and who I was going to be was just
[1:44:41] because of this like
[1:44:43] my first thought was always go towards
[1:44:45] like what's comfortable now even if it
[1:44:47] was the most painful choice.
[1:44:48] >> Mhm. That has to be the hardest thing
[1:44:51] that you've done
[1:44:52] >> that that distance.
[1:44:53] >> Yeah. that race in comparison to western
[1:44:56] states or are they all just some version
[1:44:58] of awful?
[1:44:59] >> Yeah, they're all some they're all some
[1:45:00] version of awful. The Speed Project 340
[1:45:02] was was challenging, but it was like it
[1:45:04] felt like I was all the pain was spread
[1:45:06] out over like a few days instead of like
[1:45:10] Western States was was challenging,
[1:45:12] really tough like in its own right
[1:45:13] because it was such a short period of
[1:45:15] time and you have like a thought of like
[1:45:17] when I want to finish this thing. Um
[1:45:18] like I wanted to finish in 22 hours and
[1:45:20] I finished in 2455 which I'm still happy
[1:45:23] about. But it's like
[1:45:26] boiling it down to like a day of
[1:45:28] movement and having like a time goal in
[1:45:31] in mind is to me just made the speed
[1:45:34] project feel like a little easier in a
[1:45:37] sense. Um but it's all it's all like
[1:45:39] some version of of crap.
[1:45:41] >> What is the difference? Like you're a
[1:45:43] marathon guy. You've done all these
[1:45:44] marathons for a long time. You're like
[1:45:46] the guy who's always at every marathon
[1:45:48] and now you're in the trail world. like
[1:45:50] how do you put to words like the
[1:45:52] difference in those experiences? And
[1:45:55] then
[1:45:56] secondarily, like how do you change your
[1:45:59] training to train for these kinds of
[1:46:01] races versus marathons?
[1:46:03] >> I guess I've never I never like looked
[1:46:04] at it like differently like showing up
[1:46:06] and doing this. I I look at it the same
[1:46:08] because I'm still me wherever I'm going
[1:46:09] to go. I just try to look at it the
[1:46:11] exact same and just share as I'm going
[1:46:13] along. um and just connect and and and
[1:46:17] bring the presence that I feel like
[1:46:19] maybe is lacking in the room and and
[1:46:20] like that might be mine, you know, and
[1:46:22] just making sure that I'm like truthful
[1:46:24] and honest in like whatever answers or
[1:46:25] whatever questions I get asked.
[1:46:27] >> There's this idea like a marathon is
[1:46:29] long and it's super hard, but you know,
[1:46:31] in
[1:46:32] >> 240, whether it's, you know, 246 or 4
[1:46:36] and a half hours or 6 hours, it's going
[1:46:37] to be over, right? Like you're gonna
[1:46:39] you're going to be on this trail for
[1:46:41] what is going to feel like a lifetime by
[1:46:43] comparison. Yeah. To me, to be honest,
[1:46:46] like once I did the speed project, I
[1:46:48] think I think I kind of started on the
[1:46:49] deep end, you know?
[1:46:50] >> Yeah.
[1:46:51] >> I I really [laughter]
[1:46:54] >> I enjoy like this
[1:46:55] >> the pyramid's upside down. Yeah.
[1:46:57] >> I feel like and then I'll be down to 50
[1:46:59] miles. But um I feel like I enjoy this
[1:47:01] this I enjoy this like low level of like
[1:47:05] consistent discomfort in negotiating
[1:47:09] with yourself. Like in a marathon, you
[1:47:11] do it is over much quicker and it seems
[1:47:14] like to me there's just less opportunity
[1:47:16] to make a choice to stop. You know, like
[1:47:19] during a 100 mile race or 100k, there's
[1:47:21] so many exit points. There's so many
[1:47:23] exit ramps where you could just be like,
[1:47:24] "Yeah, I'm done." You know, and you're
[1:47:26] you're negotiating with yourself for
[1:47:28] hours and hours and hours. You know, out
[1:47:30] of 24 hours, I probably wanted to
[1:47:33] like it's I en but I enjoy
[1:47:38] it feels like my life. 100 miles feels
[1:47:41] like
[1:47:43] what 42 years of trying to figure it out
[1:47:47] like as I go along and trying to talk to
[1:47:50] myself the right way and not lean into
[1:47:52] every negative thought or thing that
[1:47:54] happens. And
[1:47:57] so like when you get to a finish line,
[1:47:59] it's like you it's like you rearrive and
[1:48:02] like have like re like shown yourself
[1:48:04] again that everything that just happened
[1:48:09] in that race and everything that's
[1:48:10] happened so far in my life all still can
[1:48:13] come together
[1:48:14] and be a success. And I just don't feel
[1:48:18] like I have in marathons, they're just
[1:48:19] so much faster and it's just kind of a
[1:48:21] >> not a blink of an eye, but it is
[1:48:23] essentially just over much. It's just
[1:48:25] over faster 24 hours. You're not running
[1:48:27] a marathon for 24 hours.
[1:48:28] >> Yeah.
[1:48:29] >> So, it's like it feels like very
[1:48:31] gratifying to to do a 100 mileer or run
[1:48:34] through these different, you know, races
[1:48:37] and see different um scenes as you go
[1:48:39] through and views. You know what I mean?
[1:48:42] >> There's also the highs and lows that you
[1:48:45] experience. uh the longer the distance.
[1:48:48] Like if you're running a marathon, like
[1:48:50] you're going to go and then you're
[1:48:51] either gonna maybe you're going to blow
[1:48:53] up and like that's all she wrote.
[1:48:56] >> In an ultra, you can feel like it's over
[1:48:59] and then suddenly something shifts and
[1:49:01] then you feel good again, you know, like
[1:49:03] there there's it es and flows in a
[1:49:04] different kind of way.
[1:49:06] >> As you were sharing, I was thinking
[1:49:07] about uh Max Joliff's recent performance
[1:49:09] at Badwater, which is just absolutely
[1:49:11] insane. like yeah like like bow let's
[1:49:14] all bow down you know at at that
[1:49:16] performance it's like when you look at
[1:49:18] >> his stats I don't know if you saw them
[1:49:21] like he's running 730s and then he's
[1:49:23] running eights and and you're like okay
[1:49:25] when's it going to drop down to the
[1:49:26] 12minute mile it just he's at like
[1:49:29] eights consistently the entire time and
[1:49:32] >> I think it was I don't know if it was
[1:49:33] mile 35 but like pretty early in the
[1:49:36] race like he was like this is not going
[1:49:37] well and his he was having gut issues
[1:49:39] and he thought it was all over and and
[1:49:42] suddenly when he gets to the hills or
[1:49:44] what he has a second wind and like you
[1:49:46] know he just he comes alive again like
[1:49:48] there are these kind of mini deaths and
[1:49:50] rebirths that happen along the way that
[1:49:52] you're not going to experience in a
[1:49:54] marathon and not for nothing like
[1:49:57] >> you know it's 130 degrees out his body
[1:49:59] temp is like he even has his body temp
[1:50:01] metrics and there it goes up to like 101
[1:50:03] degrees like he's essentially running a
[1:50:05] fever you know
[1:50:06] >> and his heart rate never goes over like
[1:50:09] 138 like it's just like That is a
[1:50:11] bananas performance.
[1:50:12] >> Yeah. I text him after that and was
[1:50:14] like, "Hey, congrats, bro. How you
[1:50:16] feeling?" He said, "That race took
[1:50:18] everything that I had."
[1:50:19] >> I can't imagine. And you know, nobody
[1:50:21] has won that race without doing some
[1:50:24] version of a runwalk method. And he
[1:50:26] never walked the entire way.
[1:50:28] >> Insane.
[1:50:28] >> He only stopped to like change his shoes
[1:50:30] or whatever. Like that is just like the
[1:50:32] next level. And that's what continues to
[1:50:34] convince me that, you know, this is such
[1:50:37] a new sport and even when we see these
[1:50:39] outrageous breakthrough performances,
[1:50:41] like I think we're still at the
[1:50:42] beginning of seeing what's actually
[1:50:44] possible. And the longer the distance,
[1:50:46] the bigger the delta between like,
[1:50:48] >> you know, who's winning now and who's
[1:50:50] going to be winning, you know, what
[1:50:51] we're going to see in five or 10 years
[1:50:53] from now, you know,
[1:50:54] >> like with UTMB coming up, like I'm
[1:50:56] really interested to see like what
[1:50:58] happens there, you know, cuz it just
[1:50:59] seems like since I just started watching
[1:51:01] or looking into Trail even, it's just
[1:51:03] like the
[1:51:06] the the like advancements in like the
[1:51:08] the the gains that have that have
[1:51:10] happened over like a year's time are
[1:51:11] just really crazy. Um, and it's just fun
[1:51:14] to watch. It's fun to watch. Like these
[1:51:16] people are, including Max, like these
[1:51:18] people are ridiculous people.
[1:51:19] >> Like this the guy who won Western, what
[1:51:22] he finished in sub4 or something like
[1:51:24] that.
[1:51:25] >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's
[1:51:26] >> Yeah, sub 14. Three Three people
[1:51:27] finished.
[1:51:28] >> The pace at which people are running
[1:51:29] Western States now that are winning is
[1:51:30] just is off the rails.
[1:51:32] >> I was out there. I know it's not like
[1:51:34] Apparently, it's not hard.
[1:51:35] >> 246 marathoner and it took you uh, you
[1:51:37] know, 24 plus hours to finish this
[1:51:40] thing. some of the stuff that these
[1:51:41] people ran up at mile 90 something it
[1:51:44] like while I was running I'm like this
[1:51:45] is ridiculous like I got my friend Ern
[1:51:48] out there he'd never been out there he
[1:51:49] never seen it he's like I can't believe
[1:51:51] you're still we're still moving but yeah
[1:51:53] these races are just they're they're
[1:51:55] beautiful in their own like right like
[1:51:57] if you're if you are like interested in
[1:52:00] like these longer distances it's a
[1:52:02] journey like it's a it's like you said
[1:52:04] like the highs and lows the lows are
[1:52:06] long and you have to like manage your
[1:52:08] way through those and that's why I think
[1:52:09] I like it cuz I spent so much of my life
[1:52:12] kind of at this low energy or not low
[1:52:14] energy but like low like state of mind
[1:52:17] that like it's kind of fun to to be
[1:52:22] there and still and have to like
[1:52:23] negotiate through those cuz you know
[1:52:24] it's going to change and it's not life
[1:52:26] or death if it doesn't you know like you
[1:52:28] can you can stop if you need to and you
[1:52:30] know you can DNF this and the one thing
[1:52:32] about trail that's really cool is like
[1:52:33] DNF is not like some big shameful thing
[1:52:36] like if you if you don't finish a
[1:52:37] marathon the road scene is like more
[1:52:39] like like oh dang what happened like you
[1:52:42] you know if you don't if you DNF 100
[1:52:43] mileers it's like oh okay well next year
[1:52:45] you know
[1:52:45] >> yeah I mean sometimes it's just not
[1:52:47] going to happen it just happens but
[1:52:49] >> it's just been it's been really fun and
[1:52:50] and I'm going to run marathons still
[1:52:52] like I'm actually going to be running
[1:52:53] Berlin I'm not going to be racing it cuz
[1:52:55] I'm not like fit like that but I'll be
[1:52:57] running it and I'm always going to be
[1:52:59] around the marathon scene cuz it's just
[1:53:00] it's still so fun. It's still like
[1:53:02] that's where like my people are at and
[1:53:04] that's where I feel like that's where I
[1:53:05] started at. But I definitely want to
[1:53:07] keep pushing in the trail and like just
[1:53:09] see I want to see where I can go like,
[1:53:11] you know, helping, you know, increase
[1:53:14] visibility is one thing, but then I also
[1:53:16] would love to see like what me a couple
[1:53:19] years from now running 100ks, 100
[1:53:21] mileers, like I wonder what that looks
[1:53:22] like.
[1:53:23] >> Yeah.
[1:53:23] >> Finish time wise.
[1:53:24] >> Uh we left the training part dangling.
[1:53:26] >> Okay. Training in training.
[1:53:28] >> Training was cool. Like big shout out to
[1:53:29] my coach Melissa Johnson Weiss. She's
[1:53:31] been she I got her before my first
[1:53:33] marathon in 2019. So she's been with me
[1:53:35] all these years through all these
[1:53:38] different races, backto-back races, tsp.
[1:53:41] So it's like she literally just ramped
[1:53:44] up the numbers and changed some of like
[1:53:47] the the the like the concepts of a
[1:53:49] workout. And a lot of it was much more
[1:53:51] instead of trying to hit this marathon
[1:53:52] pace for a 10 mile, you know,
[1:53:54] progression run, it's more about like,
[1:53:55] okay, you're going outside and you're
[1:53:56] going to be outside for 4 hours today
[1:53:58] >> and just get outside and get moving. And
[1:54:00] the miles are much obviously the the
[1:54:01] weekly miles is crazy high.
[1:54:03] >> Mhm. But at the same time,
[1:54:04] >> lower volume, lower intensity.
[1:54:06] >> Yeah. Just you're just out there. And we
[1:54:08] still did like workouts like to for
[1:54:09] turnover to not make to make sure it's
[1:54:11] not boring. But she's done a really
[1:54:13] great job of like hearing what I wanted
[1:54:15] to do, believing that I that I would put
[1:54:17] in the work to do it and then and just
[1:54:20] give me a plan and like letting me do my
[1:54:22] thing.
[1:54:22] >> Um, so the training for it is just
[1:54:24] slower, longer, way more miles. I think
[1:54:27] for for Western States, I think I was
[1:54:29] like a couple weeks over 100. Um, but a
[1:54:32] lot of like just time outside and I
[1:54:35] enjoy just not necessarily having to go
[1:54:39] be obsessive over a pace for 16 weeks of
[1:54:42] training.
[1:54:43] >> Yeah.
[1:54:44] >> Similar to myself, your your influence
[1:54:47] sort of crisscrosses uh recovery with
[1:54:50] running.
[1:54:51] >> And that means that like me, you're also
[1:54:54] probably getting um a lot of DMs from
[1:54:57] people uh you know with questions about
[1:54:59] these things. And one of the things that
[1:55:01] I've that I'm curious about uh that I've
[1:55:04] experienced is uh a fair amount of
[1:55:07] confusion that conflates these two
[1:55:09] things like in other words that the
[1:55:11] recovery is is related to running uh in
[1:55:16] a way that like misrepresents like what
[1:55:18] sobriety is like oh if I just start
[1:55:20] running like that's the solution to my
[1:55:22] addiction problem versus like what you
[1:55:25] and I both know that it's anchored in
[1:55:27] like working this program and that's
[1:55:30] something that's very different and
[1:55:31] takes priority over the running. The
[1:55:33] running is a byproduct of putting in the
[1:55:35] work in the rooms of recovery and
[1:55:37] participating in in sobriety. But I
[1:55:40] would imagine that you probably get
[1:55:41] like, oh, like I'm I'm struggling with
[1:55:43] this, but like I've quit drinking and
[1:55:45] now I'm I'm running, but there's like no
[1:55:46] program there.
[1:55:47] >> Yeah.
[1:55:47] >> Like how do you respond to those people
[1:55:49] or try to be helpful uh for people who
[1:55:51] are
[1:55:52] >> either struggling with sobriety or sober
[1:55:55] curious and also running curious? you
[1:55:57] know, it's sort of like let's take care
[1:55:58] of the sobriety thing first, like and
[1:56:00] then we can get to the running part
[1:56:02] later.
[1:56:02] >> I think exactly that like I I remind
[1:56:05] people um that there they wouldn't know
[1:56:09] who I am or they wouldn't be DMing me if
[1:56:11] it wasn't for sobriety period. I started
[1:56:14] running a year after. So, a lot of times
[1:56:16] like I'll I'll people like to like if
[1:56:19] you do a podcast or an interview or
[1:56:21] something like that, they'll try to go,
[1:56:22] "Oh, he use you running to stay sober."
[1:56:24] And I like I make them change. running
[1:56:26] is how you got sober.
[1:56:27] >> Yeah. Like I make them change that cuz
[1:56:28] like I wouldn't I there wouldn't be any
[1:56:30] running if I didn't get sober. And so I
[1:56:33] just try to like remind people while
[1:56:34] they're trying to figure their thing
[1:56:35] out. I remind them what is most
[1:56:36] important to me. And most important to
[1:56:39] me is soiety cuz without that I wouldn't
[1:56:41] be here. It's as simple as that. Like I
[1:56:43] can't necessarily I mean I can say check
[1:56:46] out a meeting or whatever but at the
[1:56:48] same time like I just want to make sure
[1:56:50] that whoever's talking to me understands
[1:56:52] like what I put as a priority
[1:56:54] >> so that they can maybe look at their
[1:56:56] thing okay maybe I am using this as
[1:56:58] something that is unsustainable cuz what
[1:57:00] if you get hurt what if you don't like
[1:57:02] running after 6 months or whatever are
[1:57:04] you back that means you're back to
[1:57:05] drinking or back to whatever um so I
[1:57:08] just say like hey priority is the is the
[1:57:10] sobriety do that and everything else and
[1:57:13] do that for yourself, not for anybody
[1:57:15] else. Be sober for you and then
[1:57:18] everybody else benefits from that. And
[1:57:20] the running thing or for the cycle or
[1:57:22] whatever it is, that's all second or
[1:57:24] third or whatever, but never first.
[1:57:26] >> It's complimentary though, you know, it
[1:57:28] it it is putting the principles into
[1:57:31] action. Like you have to take contrary
[1:57:33] action. You have to take things one day
[1:57:34] at a time. You know, it's it's it's an
[1:57:37] exercise in humility because you're
[1:57:39] never going to you're never going to
[1:57:40] beat the mountain and you're never going
[1:57:42] to beat yourself and there's always
[1:57:43] going to be other people faster than
[1:57:45] you.
[1:57:46] >> And uh and it's also an exercise in
[1:57:50] confronting yourself honestly, you know,
[1:57:52] like you can't participate in one of
[1:57:55] these races, especially the really long
[1:57:56] ones or or any race for that matter
[1:57:58] really, and not have uh your denial
[1:58:02] upended. You know what I mean? cuz
[1:58:03] you're going to meet yourself where you
[1:58:05] are in in the truest version of yourself
[1:58:07] and that's an opportunity for growth
[1:58:09] like just like how can I move towards
[1:58:12] this thing that is uncomfortable it's
[1:58:14] going to teach me something and failure
[1:58:16] is good because I can learn from that uh
[1:58:19] and I can grow as a result of these
[1:58:21] experiences so it's not that running is
[1:58:24] you know something totally detached from
[1:58:26] sobriety and I think it's why so many
[1:58:29] people in recovery gravitate towards
[1:58:30] endurance sports because it is it's
[1:58:32] almost like a spiritual practice on some
[1:58:34] level.
[1:58:35] >> Yeah. You just like you just have so
[1:58:36] much time to to to work through these
[1:58:39] things like in movement. But if you're
[1:58:42] some of these longer races, like you
[1:58:43] said, there's so many um you meet
[1:58:46] yourself, different versions of yourself
[1:58:47] so many different times in these races
[1:58:49] if you want to finish and keep going,
[1:58:51] you do have to like have that
[1:58:53] conversation with yourself. I mean,
[1:58:54] you're out there sometimes by yourself
[1:58:56] for hours.
[1:58:57] >> Yeah. And you have plenty of opportunity
[1:58:59] to to beat yourself up if you want and
[1:59:02] talk crap to yourself or and or continue
[1:59:05] >> or like change that negative internal
[1:59:08] >> Yeah. narration
[1:59:09] >> and then but then that lasts for 20
[1:59:11] minutes sometimes like you you feel like
[1:59:13] a high for 20 minutes and you're back to
[1:59:14] that low again because something reminds
[1:59:16] you of the thing that was bothering you
[1:59:17] before.
[1:59:18] >> So it's it's it's the it's therapeutic.
[1:59:20] I was going to say it's therapy, but
[1:59:22] it's therapeutic in a way just to to
[1:59:25] know that you are you've signed yourself
[1:59:28] up for a task that is going to require
[1:59:31] you to
[1:59:34] to dig so deep, you know, to continue at
[1:59:38] certain moments um that when you finish
[1:59:42] it just it feels like you you're a
[1:59:44] different person on the other side of
[1:59:45] these races if you allow it. because you
[1:59:47] could go through and kind of, you know,
[1:59:49] only look at the highs and go like,
[1:59:51] "Okay, I'm great." But I also it that's
[1:59:54] pointless. That's also like when people
[1:59:56] are sober and they're only just looking
[1:59:57] at the the the the fancy stuff that they
[2:00:00] get to tell people how many like how
[2:00:01] long they've been sober.
[2:00:02] >> They they are transformative
[2:00:03] experiences. Like each and every one of
[2:00:05] them is like its own hero's journey.
[2:00:07] >> 100%. Yeah.
[2:00:08] >> And I'm just I'm grateful that like I'm
[2:00:10] grateful that I started backwards and
[2:00:12] did the TSB thing first,
[2:00:13] >> but I'm just like I'm so grateful to
[2:00:15] like to be out there like I when I was
[2:00:19] when I was in at Western, I planned on
[2:00:21] being done before the sun rose,
[2:00:22] >> but like the one of the most beautiful
[2:00:24] moments of that race was after like
[2:00:26] coming to terms with like I wasn't
[2:00:27] having the day that I wanted to have
[2:00:28] around like 19 or 20 hours in that I was
[2:00:31] gonna I was going to miss this goal of
[2:00:33] the 22-hour thing and may maybe even the
[2:00:36] 24h hour the sub 4 like once I like in
[2:00:39] motion like was able to like keep moving
[2:00:42] forward but then also like grapple with
[2:00:44] that disappointment potentially and
[2:00:47] rephrase and reframe like what life was
[2:00:50] at that second or that time got to this
[2:00:53] point where the sun rose that I didn't
[2:00:54] think I was going to see and it was the
[2:00:56] most beautiful moment and like joyful
[2:00:58] moment of the race when I looked around
[2:01:01] and saw like this sun rising over the
[2:01:03] mountain and that to me is like we all
[2:01:06] thought we were going to be somewhere
[2:01:08] different or somewhere better at this
[2:01:10] point. But if you stop thinking about
[2:01:13] like the future or the lack of the
[2:01:15] future that you thought you wanted and
[2:01:17] really stay like exactly where you are,
[2:01:18] like be where your feet are and be in
[2:01:20] this moment, it's so many beautiful
[2:01:22] things like right in front of us. And
[2:01:24] we're experiencing so many things to be
[2:01:26] grateful for. even in the midst of like
[2:01:29] the most terrible or tough moments of
[2:01:31] our lives, there's always something like
[2:01:33] right there that we can be eternally
[2:01:36] grateful for. And running to me shows me
[2:01:39] that just in much more like physical
[2:01:41] sense. And then I get to go home and try
[2:01:44] to figure out like how what I learned
[2:01:47] from that moment and then how can I
[2:01:49] actually like live that out in a
[2:01:50] day-to-day basis and maybe even like
[2:01:52] impart some wisdom like onto my kids
[2:01:54] first and then maybe other people after.
[2:01:55] It's a very elaborate extensive
[2:01:57] gratitude practice,
[2:01:59] >> you know, [gasps]
[2:01:59] >> but that opportunity to frame it uh you
[2:02:02] know having agency over how you you know
[2:02:05] decide uh whether this was a good or a
[2:02:07] bad experience, whether or not it went
[2:02:09] your way or not. Like another example of
[2:02:11] that is Molly Sidell who Olympic
[2:02:15] marathon like the elite of the elite of
[2:02:17] the elite who like is like okay now I'm
[2:02:19] going into trail and you know there
[2:02:21] isn't that much time or distance between
[2:02:23] when she was just like you know the
[2:02:25] world's best essentially
[2:02:27] >> uh and things didn't go her way at
[2:02:29] Western states she ends up finishing
[2:02:30] around the same time you do I don't know
[2:02:32] exactly like in the same range right
[2:02:35] that could be chocked up as like a
[2:02:37] failure or like oh turns about like the
[2:02:41] Olympic marathon like that doesn't
[2:02:42] translate on the trail but it's actually
[2:02:44] a story of triumph because almost
[2:02:47] anybody else in her shoes would have
[2:02:49] pulled out and she's like I am finishing
[2:02:51] this thing
[2:02:51] >> and it was just the most kind of
[2:02:53] courageous you know kind of statement
[2:02:56] that she could make and ends up
[2:02:58] >> being this inspirational story rather
[2:03:00] than like an example of failing. I mean,
[2:03:03] to me, it just shows it shows me where
[2:03:05] like where her ego lies. And her ego is
[2:03:08] is more so on the like I'm going to
[2:03:10] finish what I started thing as opposed
[2:03:12] to like a ego of what people are going
[2:03:14] to think of of this time because like
[2:03:16] you said, if somebody in her shoes
[2:03:19] >> pulling the plug and then just signing
[2:03:21] up for a different race, you know, and
[2:03:22] just running as a professional. But I
[2:03:24] saw that and like huge hats off to her
[2:03:27] cuz a lot of people that were elites and
[2:03:28] pro and pros dropped out that day and no
[2:03:31] like shame in that. they made the
[2:03:32] decision that worked for them, but she
[2:03:34] signed on and was like, "Nope, I'm gonna
[2:03:37] I'm finishing." And who cares what
[2:03:40] everybody else thinks as long as she
[2:03:41] crossed that finish line and was proud
[2:03:43] of herself and felt like she
[2:03:45] >> Yeah. And she was so like it looked like
[2:03:47] a very cathartic experience for her.
[2:03:49] >> Yeah. And and I I love that like that's
[2:03:52] >> I mean cuz that's more realistic to all
[2:03:54] of us anyway.
[2:03:55] >> Mhm. the perfect race day like happens
[2:03:58] for who you know like very very rarely
[2:04:00] even on the marathon side you don't like
[2:04:02] strike a perfect race all the time her
[2:04:04] having that moment and deciding to
[2:04:06] continue and push through and then share
[2:04:08] it and let it just be a thing and go on
[2:04:10] pods and talk about it that's like
[2:04:12] that's what we're doing is is living
[2:04:14] life and trying to do it to the best of
[2:04:16] our ability and and framing it or
[2:04:18] sharing it in a way that's like
[2:04:20] authentic true and like potentially
[2:04:22] inspirational
[2:04:22] >> yeah um all right uh I got a few uh
[2:04:26] lightning round questions for you.
[2:04:28] >> Okay,
[2:04:29] >> Tommy,
[2:04:30] >> Rich,
[2:04:31] >> what are you running towards and more
[2:04:33] importantly, what are you running away
[2:04:35] from?
[2:04:37] Um
[2:04:38] I'm running towards whatever's in the
[2:04:41] future. It's like I'll leave it at that
[2:04:43] cuz I don't know what's out there. Um
[2:04:46] I'm running away from
[2:04:49] the person, the version of me that was
[2:04:51] scared of the future.
[2:04:53] And once an alcoholic, always an
[2:04:56] alcoholic. You can hide, you know, in
[2:04:59] this world uh very easily like and and
[2:05:02] and be shrouded in in praise and
[2:05:04] external validation for doing these
[2:05:06] races. You know, we all have things that
[2:05:08] we avoid and we can use any device uh to
[2:05:14] make people think that we're not
[2:05:15] avoiding them.
[2:05:16] >> So, what is the next mountain that you
[2:05:18] have to climb? Not running wise, but
[2:05:21] like personal growth wise or like like
[2:05:25] spiritually or like in terms of you know
[2:05:28] your psychological well-being cuz the
[2:05:31] work is never done right. We know this
[2:05:34] from the rooms
[2:05:35] >> for just like my own personal like
[2:05:37] internal work. It's more for me it's
[2:05:40] about like for me it's about like loving
[2:05:43] myself you know enough to
[2:05:46] um align like my actual decisions on a
[2:05:50] day-to-day basis and or even like some
[2:05:54] of the things that I am aiming for or
[2:05:56] want to do or share with the world or
[2:05:59] all of those things are based in like
[2:06:01] how much will I allow myself to like be
[2:06:04] proud and love myself you know and cuz
[2:06:07] some of this stuff whether whether I
[2:06:09] want to like sit here and be cool or not
[2:06:11] is based in validation in a sense, you
[2:06:15] know, like I would run these races I
[2:06:17] think without people saying is cool, but
[2:06:20] at the same time that's also part of the
[2:06:22] thing that's like feeding like my will
[2:06:26] to do more. And somewhere under there is
[2:06:30] this is like is this kid that's like not
[2:06:35] good enough. Um, [clears throat]
[2:06:38] and
[2:06:41] I just want to make sure that like as
[2:06:43] I'm growing that I'm actually like
[2:06:45] checking that version of me and bringing
[2:06:49] that like up to speed
[2:06:51] >> to like not just preach a story that's
[2:06:56] inspirational, but like
[2:06:58] live a life that like that I'm actually
[2:07:01] proud of that if everything went away
[2:07:04] like I'd still be really cool with it
[2:07:05] and I would still Keep going forward.
[2:07:08] >> Beautiful, man. I love that answer.
[2:07:11] >> All right, the rest of these are are fun
[2:07:13] ones. That was the heavy That was a
[2:07:15] heavy one. That wasn't really a speed
[2:07:16] round question, was it?
[2:07:18] >> Yeah. Okay, thanks.
[2:07:18] >> I lied to you.
[2:07:20] >> What is the appropriate reaction when
[2:07:22] you wave at a fellow runner and they
[2:07:24] don't wave [laughter] back?
[2:07:27] The appropriate reaction of you passing
[2:07:29] a runner, unless you're like in Central
[2:07:31] Park where there's like a thousand
[2:07:32] people running, you wave back. you wave
[2:07:36] or wave back or a nod or something like
[2:07:39] acknowledge each other. It's just human.
[2:07:41] It's a thing, you know. If you see me
[2:07:43] and I wave at you and we've made eye
[2:07:45] contact and I saw that you saw me wave
[2:07:46] and you don't wave,
[2:07:47] >> I think that's just that's just that's
[2:07:49] just rude on
[2:07:50] >> what's just punishment for the person
[2:07:52] who doesn't
[2:07:52] >> straight to jail. Straight to jail. So,
[2:07:54] yeah. [snorts] So, yeah, PR Project we
[2:07:55] do
[2:07:56] >> we're talking truth here.
[2:07:57] >> Run clubs are cool.
[2:07:58] >> Um,
[2:07:59] >> are there too many run clubs? Have we
[2:08:01] maxed out on run clubs?
[2:08:02] >> Nah, I won't say that. I I don't think
[2:08:04] we've maxed out on run clubs. I feel
[2:08:06] like maybe um maybe we've maxed out on
[2:08:09] some of the same type of run clubs, but
[2:08:11] I think that if you're if you're into
[2:08:12] like Zelda and you got a Zelda run club,
[2:08:14] great. If you're a trail guy or girl or
[2:08:17] whatever, you want to run do a trail run
[2:08:19] club, do it. I think that um we can't
[2:08:21] like police or people gathering for
[2:08:24] whatever reason they want to gather.
[2:08:27] >> Training with carbon plated shoes. Hell
[2:08:29] yeah. Or super cringe.
[2:08:32] >> Hell yeah. Okay. Why?
[2:08:34] >> Why not?
[2:08:35] >> It's more fun.
[2:08:36] >> It's more fun.
[2:08:36] >> You run faster,
[2:08:37] >> you know? Or just like I mean they're
[2:08:39] built for fast and speed, but they're
[2:08:40] also built in a way that like saves your
[2:08:42] legs. I mean, it may not be super
[2:08:44] healthy to always run in them. I'm not
[2:08:45] sure. I'm not a scientist. I've heard
[2:08:47] people talk about it different ways,
[2:08:49] >> but I think that like some of the long
[2:08:51] runs that I have, it's like I I'll bring
[2:08:52] out some super shoes and carbon plate
[2:08:55] shoes and figure out how to get through
[2:08:56] this run and have a good day and put the
[2:08:58] miles in. And I see nothing wrong with
[2:09:00] it. I was in New York uh a little while
[2:09:03] back and did this podcast with Chris
[2:09:05] Chavez and Malcolm Gladwell. And before
[2:09:08] we started taping, Malcolm was just
[2:09:10] talking. He's like, "I love I love
[2:09:11] training in carbon blade is because like
[2:09:13] also when you're older, like you know,
[2:09:15] you recover faster."
[2:09:16] >> Yeah.
[2:09:17] >> All right, good. You're on the record on
[2:09:18] that.
[2:09:19] >> Okay.
[2:09:19] >> Um what is a real runner?
[2:09:22] >> Somebody that runs. If you run to me, if
[2:09:25] you run once a month, a week, whatever,
[2:09:28] you're a runner. If you can, if you have
[2:09:30] a practice, uh, your movement practice
[2:09:32] is running. No matter how often you do
[2:09:34] it or how fast or slow you do it, you're
[2:09:36] a runner.
[2:09:38] Related question, also related to the
[2:09:40] Run Club question. What do you make of
[2:09:43] the fashion explosion in running right
[2:09:46] now? Because I'm of two minds when it
[2:09:49] comes to this. Like, I think it's cool.
[2:09:50] Like, I I'm like excited about like some
[2:09:53] like flare coming into the scene. Yeah.
[2:09:55] and some interesting, you know, brands
[2:09:57] that are trying to do things a little
[2:09:59] bit differently. Um, it just makes it
[2:10:02] feel like more vibrant and fun,
[2:10:04] >> but it also could be something that a
[2:10:08] new, you know, quote unquote real runner
[2:10:10] might find intimidating. Like it's a
[2:10:12] price of entry. Like if I don't if I
[2:10:14] show up to my run club and I don't have
[2:10:16] the right socks or, you know, my kid is
[2:10:18] like, you know, not not quite there.
[2:10:20] Yeah. like I don't feel like I feel
[2:10:22] insecure rather than like putting out a
[2:10:24] welcome mat where everybody feels
[2:10:27] comfortable showing up.
[2:10:28] >> Yeah. To be honest, I don't think I've
[2:10:30] thought about it like that. Um that's
[2:10:33] interesting and I feel like that that's
[2:10:35] obviously happening somewhere, but I
[2:10:38] think it's all good. Um I feel like
[2:10:41] that's a person thing. You know, if you
[2:10:44] pull up to a run club and they've
[2:10:46] created a atmosphere of of like
[2:10:51] being a super welcome and making sure
[2:10:53] people feel like they belong there, I
[2:10:54] don't think it really matters what you
[2:10:56] have on.
[2:10:56] >> Um, but if you've allowed yourself to be
[2:10:58] like more high school and you there's
[2:11:01] clicks in that thing and they make
[2:11:03] people
[2:11:04] >> inadvertently feel uncomfortable.
[2:11:06] >> All the run clubs, it can be that kind
[2:11:08] of like high school clickish sort of
[2:11:09] thing. there's a hierarchy and all that
[2:11:11] >> and that's just that just rely that's
[2:11:13] that the weight is on the shoulders of
[2:11:15] the run club leaders you know and and a
[2:11:17] lot of them know that and they work hard
[2:11:19] to make sure that that doesn't happen um
[2:11:22] as often as it probably could if there
[2:11:24] wasn't somebody like kind of policing
[2:11:25] that energy and that's just like that's
[2:11:27] I never start a run club like like I
[2:11:29] don't want to be responsible for all
[2:11:31] these different things um and I probably
[2:11:32] if I started a run club nobody would
[2:11:34] pull up anyway but
[2:11:34] >> yeah it it it seems like it's starting
[2:11:36] to come look more like what cycling has
[2:11:40] always been like cycling like I remember
[2:11:42] the first time I wanted to buy a bike
[2:11:45] and I went into a bike shop like I was
[2:11:47] so intimidated you know it's like it's
[2:11:49] scary and it's sort of like if you don't
[2:11:50] really know you know like you don't feel
[2:11:52] like you can even ask a question and
[2:11:54] there's these group rides and you know
[2:11:56] there's a certain sock height and like
[2:11:58] you got there all kinds of like
[2:12:00] unwritten rules and yeah are your are
[2:12:02] your
[2:12:03] >> are your shades on the inside or the
[2:12:05] outside of the which is right the
[2:12:07] outside outside.
[2:12:08] >> Yeah. Okay. Um Yeah. And it it's
[2:12:10] ridiculous, right? And I can see like
[2:12:13] running moving in that direction with
[2:12:15] all these clubs and that concerns me a
[2:12:17] little bit.
[2:12:18] >> So,
[2:12:18] >> while also appreciating that like you're
[2:12:21] taking your kit seriously in your
[2:12:23] presentation and there's a fashion thing
[2:12:24] to it and that makes it fun and
[2:12:26] interesting, albeit an expensive hobby.
[2:12:29] I think that part partially like the the
[2:12:31] coolness factor of it and like these new
[2:12:33] things, I think that's also why we're
[2:12:35] seeing such a boom because it does look
[2:12:37] cool. And I think for certain
[2:12:39] communities, the the a cool factor is an
[2:12:42] invitation. You know, like when I first
[2:12:44] started running, I went into a store and
[2:12:46] they were I was asking for the right
[2:12:47] shoes and they handed me two pairs of
[2:12:49] shoes that I thought were just
[2:12:50] horrendous. And I'm like, "All right,
[2:12:53] dang." This is a real I'm like, "Oh man,
[2:12:55] I left my wallet in the car cuz I'm too
[2:12:57] embarrassed to say that I didn't like
[2:12:58] them." So, I just walked out the store
[2:12:59] and just didn't go back into the store
[2:13:01] and I like ordered some shoes online
[2:13:02] that I thought looked better.
[2:13:04] >> And I think that like some of the the
[2:13:05] the the vibe for sure if you can make
[2:13:08] something look cool, people will want to
[2:13:10] want to like come to it sometimes. And
[2:13:13] >> that's an intrigue, too. Like, oh, I can
[2:13:15] I can run for my house.
[2:13:16] >> I don't have to wear that super stuff
[2:13:18] that everyone else is wearing. I can
[2:13:19] wear this. And
[2:13:20] >> like if I can get a fit off at the at
[2:13:21] the run club and I'm also healthy and
[2:13:24] meeting people that are doing the same
[2:13:26] thing, that's kind of cool, you know?
[2:13:27] like that's like not just cool, but like
[2:13:29] that's fun and that's like that's
[2:13:30] positive. So, I think it's just really
[2:13:32] just someone needs to police or watch
[2:13:35] like that that that thing that could
[2:13:37] make people not want to be there. And if
[2:13:39] and if that happens, that's also why
[2:13:40] there's other run clubs. Like you come
[2:13:42] to run club and you're like this is
[2:13:43] really fun and great, but there's like
[2:13:45] 10 of us that just don't feel like this
[2:13:46] is our thing. Then that's why you people
[2:13:49] have started other run clubs like down
[2:13:50] the street.
[2:13:51] >> Two more. This one is also related to
[2:13:54] the question of what is a real runner?
[2:13:58] Are you following Whiz Khalifa's running
[2:14:00] journey? [laughter] Because this is the
[2:14:02] best thing to happen to running in a
[2:14:04] long time. Like I am so in love like
[2:14:06] with what that guy is doing right now
[2:14:07] and the way that he's sharing it on
[2:14:09] social media. I think it's fantastic.
[2:14:11] >> Yeah, that's he's he's that's the next
[2:14:13] guest. It has to be.
[2:14:15] >> I'm trying. Anybody out there have a in
[2:14:17] with I DM'd him, but he doesn't follow
[2:14:19] me. He's not going to read my DM.
[2:14:20] >> I'll text him. I'll text him.
[2:14:21] >> Yeah, text him afterwards.
[2:14:22] >> Yeah. I don't have his number, but I'll
[2:14:23] text him. Um but I know I think it's
[2:14:26] really cool. cuz I feel like there's
[2:14:27] been it's funny as well because like you
[2:14:30] see like the running industry and all
[2:14:31] the brands are just like in the they're
[2:14:33] not even in the DMs. They're like in the
[2:14:35] comment sections like going crazy.
[2:14:37] >> Um I think he's been rocking the 247
[2:14:40] represent lately.
[2:14:41] >> Yeah. Yeah, I saw that. I saw that.
[2:14:42] Well, they Yeah, they got to him. I
[2:14:43] think Choros got to him. Um but
[2:14:46] >> he's sharing his choros little like
[2:14:47] graphic on the You know,
[2:14:49] >> I think it's cool. Well, like I mean we
[2:14:50] saw it with so many different likeuh
[2:14:52] entertainers as well and we've seen like
[2:14:54] there's just there's there's money like
[2:14:57] to be had like in the health and
[2:14:59] wellness space especially in running.
[2:15:00] It's such a big boom right now and if if
[2:15:02] somebody like him can come in too and
[2:15:04] and bring his like what he's created and
[2:15:07] the energy that he's that he's put into
[2:15:09] like the hip-hop and uh hip-hop scene
[2:15:12] and that's great. Like because if he can
[2:15:14] make other people that absolutely would
[2:15:18] never put on some running shoes and go
[2:15:20] out on a trail because he's in trail and
[2:15:21] road,
[2:15:22] >> that's fire. I think that that's really
[2:15:23] cool.
[2:15:24] >> And he looks great. Like he has the
[2:15:25] natural skinny runner's physique and you
[2:15:28] know and he's just like I don't know
[2:15:29] what I'm doing but like he's so in love
[2:15:31] with it. His enthusiasm, you know, is
[2:15:33] like really infectious and he's so
[2:15:35] funny.
[2:15:35] >> Yeah. And he and it's cool. That's true
[2:15:37] though because
[2:15:38] >> he makes it look cool cuz he's having
[2:15:40] fun doing it and he doesn't look like
[2:15:41] he's trying to look cool.
[2:15:43] just to be cool. He's just doing his
[2:15:45] thing and he's with Khalifa so it works
[2:15:48] out.
[2:15:48] >> I think it's it's fun. It It's
[2:15:51] >> that to me was proof that people are
[2:15:52] saying like the running boom's going to
[2:15:54] >> That to me is proof that like it's just
[2:15:56] going to keep like growing. It's going
[2:15:58] to look different in 5 years or
[2:15:59] whatever, but I just feel like this this
[2:16:01] running [clears throat] thing is like
[2:16:02] super here to stay on a mainstream type
[2:16:04] of level.
[2:16:05] >> Sure.
[2:16:06] >> All right, last question. This is going
[2:16:07] to [clears throat] hurt a little bit.
[2:16:08] Might be a little confrontational. Okay,
[2:16:10] Tommy. Um,
[2:16:13] am I correct in believing that from this
[2:16:17] point forward,
[2:16:19] uh, for the foreseeable future at least,
[2:16:23] or perhaps forever, you are only going
[2:16:25] to use Lidwig Goransson's Odyssey score
[2:16:27] on every single reel that you post on
[2:16:29] Instagram. [laughter]
[2:16:31] >> So, yeah. Yes, that is true.
[2:16:33] >> I think you've done it like
[2:16:34] >> So, whenever I'm
[2:16:35] >> 10 times in a row now, and I'm like,
[2:16:37] this he's he's like he's on his groove
[2:16:39] with this. I'm in there, bro. I've seen
[2:16:41] the movie twice.
[2:16:41] >> Me, too.
[2:16:42] >> Um, I think I'm gonna try I'm gonna go
[2:16:44] for three. Nine hours of my life is is a
[2:16:46] good investment.
[2:16:46] >> I think you should just like this is my
[2:16:48] thing. I just always use this. I always
[2:16:50] use this score for every real I make
[2:16:52] >> every time like all the videos that you
[2:16:53] mentioned like are the ones that like
[2:16:54] I'm talking and I don't normally talk
[2:16:56] directly to the camera as much as like I
[2:16:58] might I've used to. I've always just
[2:17:00] been like running and using like just
[2:17:01] different music, but I feel like it's a
[2:17:03] funny it's a funny like score to like me
[2:17:06] talking about something silly like
[2:17:07] growing a mustache or like Do people
[2:17:10] want to see my toes?
[2:17:11] >> And you have this like epic, you know?
[2:17:13] >> Yeah.
[2:17:14] >> So, it's like I think I'm gonna I'll
[2:17:16] make I'll make a video and I'm gonna I'm
[2:17:18] gonna tag you
[2:17:20] >> and I'll be talking about, you know, the
[2:17:21] fact that like I just sat down with you
[2:17:23] and I'll use the score. Is that cool?
[2:17:25] >> Yeah. As long as I can like post a meme
[2:17:27] in response,
[2:17:28] >> please.
[2:17:29] >> All right.
[2:17:29] >> I'll I'll allow that.
[2:17:31] >> All right. Cool. This was great, man.
[2:17:33] Uh, super fun. Uh, I think we covered a
[2:17:36] lot. Uh, wow. We've been going a long
[2:17:37] time. Um, you're amazing. I'm I've got
[2:17:41] nothing but love for the journey that
[2:17:42] you're on and I'm always behind your
[2:17:45] back uh spitting wind in your sales, my
[2:17:48] friend. I appreciate that.
[2:17:49] >> You're a beautiful representation uh of
[2:17:53] >> being a real runner and uh I think the
[2:17:55] mission you're on is is is beautiful as
[2:17:57] well. Auditory. So, thanks for sharing
[2:17:58] with me today.
[2:18:00] >> Thank you.
[2:18:00] >> Um if people want to connect with you,
[2:18:02] Instagram obviously you got your
[2:18:04] podcast. Where do you want to point
[2:18:05] people?
[2:18:06] >> Um Instagram. Tommy runs on Instagram.
[2:18:09] Um, I'm sure you'll tag it, but T M I E
[2:18:12] R U N Z on Instagram. And then a big
[2:18:15] thing that like we're pushing a lot
[2:18:16] you'll see there as well is PR project.
[2:18:18] That's me, Gary, and Aaron. Uh, we we
[2:18:21] sit down every other week and talk about
[2:18:22] all the things running and then we do,
[2:18:24] uh, some fun stuff. Um, but that's super
[2:18:27] important to me cuz it's like it's an
[2:18:29] extension of me and but it's it's my
[2:18:31] friends and we we represent different
[2:18:33] cultures that aren't normally seen in
[2:18:35] that like podcast world and
[2:18:36] communicating for and about brands and
[2:18:38] about running culture. So, that's super
[2:18:40] important right now. Um, I think those
[2:18:42] are the two places to find it. Got a
[2:18:43] couple short and longer documentaries on
[2:18:47] on on YouTube. Check those out and and
[2:18:49] hit me up if you want a shirt, too, cuz
[2:18:51] that's a statement that I that I want to
[2:18:53] continue to make and hopefully it turns
[2:18:54] into a movement that means something.
[2:18:56] >> You can buy that on your website.
[2:18:58] >> On my website, tommyruns.com.
[2:19:01] Um, yeah. And I appreciate this
[2:19:03] opportunity to be to sit here with you
[2:19:05] and talk and and do it in a way that
[2:19:07] like that just feels like the timing is
[2:19:09] right for it. And I can't wait to see
[2:19:11] what's next. So, I'm just ask everybody
[2:19:12] to kind of tap in and as I announce
[2:19:14] things, if you rock with me or you're
[2:19:17] you're liking where I'm going, support
[2:19:19] in some way.
[2:19:20] >> Right on, man. Excellent. Have a great
[2:19:22] time at UTMB.
[2:19:23] >> I will.
[2:19:23] >> All right, dude. Till next time. Peace.
[2:19:27] >> Thanks. You say it still sweet. I know.