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Inspiration

Does 2 Peter 3:16 Really Endorse Paul? A Closer Look

AA
Aaron Abke
Nov 10, 2026
読了 約6分

出典:Aaron Abke

視聴 · 5

Apologists have a favorite verse for settling whether Peter ever stood behind Paul. It is 2 Peter 3:16, a single line that seems to hand the first apostle's blessing to the letters of a man who never walked with Jesus. In the Jesus Way Podcast episode "The Only Verse That Endorses Paul Is A FORGERY," host Aaron Abke and guest David the Nazarene take that line apart. They examine its Greek on its own terms, argue that it is not the ringing endorsement it is sold as, and place the letter it belongs to well into the second century, a period in which the video's description notes no secular scholar believes Peter wrote the book. What emerges is less a verdict on Paul than a question about how early Christians decided which voices carried apostolic weight.

読む · 7セクション

Why does one verse carry so much weight in the Paul debate?

Paul's authority was contested from the beginning. His letters make up a large share of the New Testament, yet the early church argued over how to read him, and the tensions show up within the New Testament itself. For a modern defender of Paul, the cleanest move is to find an apostle vouching for him in writing. If Peter, the most prominent of the twelve, called Paul's letters Scripture, the argument would be over.

That is why 2 Peter 3:16 gets cited so often. The verse refers to Paul and his letters, describes some of their content as hard to understand, and says the untaught and unstable distort them, as they do the other Scriptures. Read quickly, it looks like Peter placing Paul in the same category as Scripture. The video's central claim is that a quick read is exactly what the apologist is counting on.

What does the Greek actually say, and what does it not say?

The episode's method is to slow down and read the Greek rather than the English gloss a reader inherits from a single translation. Abke and David the Nazarene treat the wording of the passage as the evidence, and they argue that even granting the apologist's reading, the verse does not deliver the clean, unqualified endorsement it is credited with. A line that praises a writer's wisdom while noting that his hard sayings get twisted is praise with a warning inside it, and the video presses on that ambiguity.

For a reader who wants to test this, the practice is simple and worth doing regardless of where you land. Put the verse in an interlinear Greek-English text, mark every word that carries the weight of the claim, and ask whether "endorsement" is the only reasonable rendering of what the author is doing. Small grammatical decisions, such as what a clause modifies or who the "they" in a sentence refers to, can carry an entire doctrine.

Why do scholars date 2 Peter to the second century?

The argument that changes the verse's meaning is about when the letter was written. The description states that the video dates 2 Peter well into the second century, and the conversation returns to the question with some precision. At about 30:31, the hosts discuss the scholarly consensus that no one alive today thinks the apostle himself produced the letter. At around 60:03, the conversation places the writing at roughly the 140s.

The logic behind such a date is straightforward. If a letter presupposes a collection of Paul's letters already circulating and treated as authoritative, it cannot easily be the work of a man who died decades earlier. A later writer looking back at Paul's correspondence as a settled body of texts would sound exactly like this verse. The date does not prove forgery on its own, but it removes the easy assumption that the letter is a first-generation witness.

Where does Marcion fit into the story?

Around 63:16, the conversation turns to Marcion, the second-century teacher who is remembered for building a canon centered on Paul's letters and for rejecting the Hebrew Scriptures. Marcion's example matters here because it shows that by the middle of the second century, the question of which texts counted, and which apostolic names stood behind them, was a live and consequential fight. A letter that appears to bless Paul would have been useful to anyone trying to settle that fight.

This is the context in which the video's "forgery" framing becomes more than a provocative title. Writing in the name of a revered figure was a recognized literary practice in antiquity, and scholars use the term pseudepigrapha for works attributed to someone who did not write them. Whether 2 Peter belongs in that category is the question the episode is built to press, and it is the question a careful reader should keep separate from the rhetoric around it.

Who wrote 2 Peter, if not Peter?

The hosts push the authorship question directly. At around 69:54, Abke and his guest describe the author as a later figure rather than the fisherman from Galilee:

"But a later writer, a Gentile Greek ... of Greek scribal training to write a ..."

Aaron Abke, Jesus Way Podcast 067 (about 69:54)

The argument as presented is that the Greek style and the literary habits of the text point to someone trained in Greek letters, not a Galilean speaking to his own community. Whether a reader accepts the full case, the question of style is one of the most concrete tests scholars have, because the vocabulary and sentence structure of a text can reveal far more about its origins than its claimed author does.

Why does this matter for how Christians read their Bible today?

The stakes of this debate are not limited to one verse. If a doctrine of Paul's authority rests on a single line in a book whose authorship is disputed, then the line is carrying more weight than it can hold. Reading the verse closely, dating the letter honestly, and asking who stood behind the name on the cover are habits that serve any believer, whether they end up defending Paul or questioning him.

The episode is also a reminder that a dramatic title is a claim in its own right. "Forgery" is a strong word, and the strength of the argument will depend on the Greek evidence and the dating case, not on the title. Watch the full conversation with that in mind.

Where to go from here

Start with the full episode, Jesus Way Podcast 067, which runs about an hour and forty minutes and includes David the Nazarene's breakdown of the Greek. Read 2 Peter 3:15 and 3:16 in full, then compare them with the Pauline letters the episode discusses. Pull up an interlinear Greek text and trace the verse yourself before accepting either side's reading. The guest's own channel, @DavidTheNazarene, is the place to look for more of his work on the Greek and the textual history.

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Transcript

[0:07] [music]

[0:18] >> Peace be with you, my friends, and

[0:19] [music] welcome back to the Jesus Way

[0:20] podcast where we are restoring the

[0:22] original gospel teachings of Yeshua the

[0:25] Nazarene. [music]

[0:26] I'm Aaron Abke, joined alongside my

[0:28] co-host Mr. James Benefico.

[0:30] [music] And uh James, it's been a minute

[0:32] since we've been in this podcast studio.

[0:34] How's it feel to be back, man?

[0:35] >> It feels great. We're back, dialed in on

[0:38] God's timing.

[0:40] It's been a wild couple months.

[0:42] >> It sure has. Yeah, a lot of a lot of

[0:44] life has transpired since our last

[0:46] podcast.

[0:47] And we wanted to take a minute to

[0:48] explain the reason for the hiatus before

[0:50] we jump back

[0:52] uh into today's topic because a lot of

[0:54] you guys have been, you know, in the

[0:55] comments like, Aaron, what what happened

[0:57] to the Jesus Way podcast?

[0:59] And I'm like, we're coming back, don't

[1:00] worry, but we had to take a little time

[1:02] off because uh the first real catalyst

[1:05] was the the hacking of my YouTube

[1:08] channel back in I want to say late July.

[1:11] >> Mhm.

[1:11] >> Um

[1:12] long story short, I'd got some texts

[1:14] from my admin and they were very um

[1:16] strange. It was like 2:00 in the

[1:18] afternoon. I think I got back from the

[1:20] gym.

[1:21] >> I'm I told you not to visit those

[1:22] websites [laughter]

[1:24] and you

[1:26] >> Oh, don't blast me like that on our

[1:27] podcast, bro.

[1:28] >> I 'm sorry. He's better now. He's

[1:30] >> going to edit that out, Brad. Let's just

[1:31] get rid of that now.

[1:33] Um but here's what really happened. I

[1:34] got these texts from my admin,

[1:37] my admin's phone, and she said uh

[1:40] Aaron, send send the Gmail code.

[1:42] I need to get into your Gmail. And this

[1:43] is normal, right? Like my admin will ask

[1:46] me for Google codes a lot of the time.

[1:48] And so I just sent the Gmail code that I

[1:50] had gotten without thinking twice about

[1:51] it.

[1:52] And then a follow-up text came through

[1:54] that said, quick, send Coinbase code.

[1:57] And I just knew right away, that's not

[1:59] my admin. She would say quick, do this

[2:01] or do that. Plus, she doesn't need

[2:03] access to my Coinbase. So, I was like,

[2:05] oh no, is this a hacker? And I had the

[2:07] thought of I just sent a hacker my Gmail

[2:10] code.

[2:11] And you know, I've had these things

[2:12] happen before and you know, just

[2:14] [clears throat] block the number and

[2:14] move on. So, I didn't think too much of

[2:16] it. And then I think it was the next

[2:17] morning, it might have been you or

[2:19] somebody else sent me a text saying

[2:21] like, Aaron, someone's posting on your

[2:22] YouTube channel.

[2:24] And that's when it all began. And um

[2:27] not going to lie, it was a wallop or a

[2:28] catalyst because my YouTube channel is

[2:31] the top of funnel for my whole business

[2:32] and 40 University, how I make money for

[2:35] my family and my team members and put

[2:37] food on their tables too. And so all

[2:39] these thoughts, you know, fear-based

[2:40] thoughts started to spiral.

[2:42] And it was the kind of ultimate trust

[2:44] surrender catalyst for me.

[2:46] And uh you know, I had to deal with the

[2:49] spiraling for a few days and I just kept

[2:51] surrendering it to God and kind of

[2:52] turned a corner on day three or

[2:54] something like that and just felt like,

[2:56] you know, I don't know why this is

[2:58] happening, but A Course in Miracles

[3:00] says,

[3:01] as long as you trust in God, a happy

[3:03] outcome is guaranteed.

[3:04] >> Mhm.

[3:05] >> And so I just put my faith in that and I

[3:07] knew that something good is going to

[3:08] come of this, although I don't know what

[3:09] it is.

[3:10] And uh most of you guys have seen the

[3:12] video by now of what transpired. I'll

[3:14] I'll post a a link to the video here if

[3:16] you want to watch it. But essentially, I

[3:17] got to get my channel back using the

[3:20] Jesus way.

[3:21] Uh the the exact philosophy we teach

[3:23] here that forgiveness is the way.

[3:26] And I just wanted to I I truly didn't

[3:28] have any concept that this guy was going

[3:30] to give me my channel back. It was a it

[3:33] was a Muslim hacker from Iran, I

[3:35] believe.

[3:36] And you know, he's sending all these

[3:37] threats and they tried to extort me for

[3:39] money. And I just messaged him on

[3:41] Instagram and said, look, brother,

[3:43] I want you to know that like I forgive

[3:45] you for what you're doing, but you are

[3:46] violating the commandments of Allah in

[3:48] the Quran. You are stealing from another

[3:50] person. And I posted some verses from

[3:52] the Quran of forbidding, you know, Allah

[3:55] forbidding theft.

[3:56] >> Who was on Instagram? Was it on

[3:57] WhatsApp?

[3:58] >> It was Instagram.

[3:59] >> Oh, no way. He had like a burner

[4:00] Instagram?

[4:01] >> [clears throat]

[4:02] >> Yeah, he had commented. He made

[4:03] >> fake account with my Gmail and then I

[4:06] saw him commenting on one of my posts

[4:08] being like, I've got your channel. Haha,

[4:09] give me my money now.

[4:11] So I DM'd him and we had this really

[4:14] beautiful conversation, which again I'll

[4:15] save for the video. But suffice to say

[4:18] the Jesus Way philosophy clearly works,

[4:20] brother, because we got the channel back

[4:22] by the grace of God and

[4:24] I think he deleted, you know, 30

[4:26] something Jesus Way podcast episodes.

[4:28] YouTube eventually restored those,

[4:30] thankfully. But it it brought up a

[4:32] bigger catalyst for both James and I,

[4:35] which is that, you know, in all

[4:37] transparency, we do this podcast as a

[4:41] pure passion project. We make $0 on this

[4:44] podcast.

[4:45] All the ads we've ran so far on this

[4:47] podcast have just been to pay off this

[4:50] studio, which our friends Scott and John

[4:52] were generous enough to

[4:54] fund for us in return for running some

[4:56] ads for them.

[4:57] So yeah, we you know, we have businesses

[5:00] that is how we actually make money and

[5:02] this podcast, as you can imagine,

[5:04] requires an enormous amount of time and

[5:06] preparation and

[5:07] James and I have been locked in on this

[5:09] podcast for over a year and a half. And

[5:12] so we sort of decided to take a pause

[5:13] and say maybe this is a a call from God

[5:17] to put the podcast aside for a little

[5:19] bit, get our businesses back in order,

[5:21] and that way we can come back

[5:23] with a new resurgence to the podcast.

[5:25] And so I'm happy to say we've done that.

[5:27] I have personally totally restructured

[5:29] my business model in a way that's a lot

[5:31] more suitable for me, and you've made a

[5:33] lot of big changes to Organic Muscle as

[5:35] well. So we're glad to be back, but I'll

[5:37] I'll pitch it to you, man, for anything

[5:38] you want to say in that regard.

[5:40] >> Yeah, it was actually really helpful to

[5:42] have this extra period without, you

[5:44] know, spending 10 or 15 hours a week on

[5:46] the podcast just to get some of my ducks

[5:49] in a row with the business.

[5:51] And also,

[5:53] full transparency for the audience, I

[5:55] had an addiction I wanted to get in

[5:57] order.

[5:58] I've conquered so many addictions

[6:00] throughout my life and I still had one,

[6:01] which was nicotine.

[6:03] And I kicked that habit.

[6:04] >> Both of us.

[6:05] >> Yeah, Aaron too.

[6:07] Um,

[6:08] it was it's kind of hanging over it was

[6:11] hanging over my head a bit because we're

[6:13] teaching this the narrow way

[6:16] and how important it is to live in

[6:17] integrity and I knew deep down I had I

[6:20] did have this one addiction left

[6:23] and um it was a brutal process quitting.

[6:25] >> Mhm.

[6:26] >> It was brutal.

[6:27] And uh

[6:29] lots of demons come up and they try and

[6:30] convince you to get back

[6:32] but persevere. So I'm really excited to

[6:35] continue this podcast in full alignment

[6:37] with the health message that we preach

[6:40] about, you know, prioritizing the vessel

[6:43] because that's that's the foundation.

[6:45] >> Yeah.

[6:45] >> And I did feel like that addiction was

[6:48] blocking my connection to the creator a

[6:50] bit.

[6:51] >> Of course. Yeah. Yeah, it's especially

[6:53] hard for us here in Austin where like

[6:55] everybody we know, all of our friends

[6:57] use nicotine daily for work and love

[6:59] nicotine and

[7:00] >> entrepreneurs especially.

[7:02] >> Yeah, man. And you know, there's so many

[7:03] health benefits to nicotine. It's not

[7:05] like it's bad or something. It has it

[7:06] has a lot of upside, but anything that

[7:08] you get dependent on needing every day,

[7:11] you know, is it addiction and

[7:13] as trivial as some people may think it

[7:15] is, like

[7:16] being people who teach the Jesus way

[7:18] philosophy and we want to be as embodied

[7:20] in that as possible, we both had talked

[7:22] a lot about, you know, we need to we

[7:24] need to stop using this daily and and

[7:26] really give our body a long break from

[7:28] this and get back into full congruency

[7:31] with what we teach. And so that 's also

[7:32] something that's been uh a really great

[7:34] transition for us in this time off. So

[7:37] thank you all for your patience and

[7:38] giving us the space to kind of reorient

[7:40] our lives and come back to the podcast

[7:42] with a new found zeal and motivation.

[7:44] And we are excited today to get back

[7:45] into one of our premier topics, which is

[7:48] the conversation on Paul that has in the

[7:51] last few months, man,

[7:53] strangely just exploded on the public

[7:55] zeitgeist on social media. And uh we

[7:57] have a great guest back on our good

[7:59] friend David the Nazarene who's going to

[8:02] I guess it's our third Paul episode with

[8:03] David.

[8:04] >> It is.

[8:05] >> Um, so we're going to go into another

[8:07] big topic on the Paul subject, which is

[8:09] this whole defensive Paul from Second

[8:11] Peter 3:16 and that tends to be kind of

[8:14] the primary defense people use for Paul.

[8:16] And so we wanted to do a standalone

[8:18] video uh focusing on that exact rebuttal

[8:22] because most of our audience, probably

[8:24] you guys hear this all the time from

[8:26] Christian friends and family or just in

[8:28] your you know comment section on

[8:30] Instagram and YouTube. It's kind of the

[8:32] one big major defense that is used in

[8:35] defense of Paul and there's big big

[8:38] problems with it. And so joining us

[8:40] again today for the third time back on

[8:41] the Jesus Way podcast is our good friend

[8:44] Mr. David the Nazarene. Welcome back to

[8:45] the pod, brother.

[8:47] >> Hey, good to be back.

[8:49] >> Great to have you back, man.

[8:51] We uh we've been talking a lot over text

[8:53] the last few months as this Paul

[8:55] conversation has mysteriously just

[8:58] exploded across the internet and is now

[9:01] pretty much as far as I can tell topic

[9:03] number one in the Christian zeitgeist

[9:05] and all the apologists are coming out of

[9:07] their armored castles with their weapons

[9:09] ready to defend their false Messiah and

[9:11] we just couldn't be more happy about it

[9:13] because we've been pushing and pushing

[9:14] and pushing this since day one on this

[9:16] podcast. But uh but you David you've

[9:19] been pushing this for I don't know how

[9:20] long at least you know better part of 10

[9:22] years I think. This is how we both found

[9:25] you was through researching the Paul

[9:26] versus Jesus conversation. So first of

[9:29] all just want to give you flowers for

[9:31] being one of the premier kind of

[9:32] pioneers of this conversation and want

[9:35] to ask you like first of all how do you

[9:37] feel seeing this you know we're going to

[9:39] watch a clip of Joe Rogan talking about

[9:40] this in a minute but how have you felt

[9:42] seeing this conversation finally spread

[9:44] across the internet and what are some

[9:46] things that you've noticed?

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[10:52] >> Yeah.

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[11:03] >> Yeah, Scott's making this book available

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[11:21] >> Well, um

[11:23] I don't know if you remember this, but

[11:25] it's probably been more than a year ago

[11:27] that you and I and and Cam were having a

[11:30] conversation, and

[11:32] I said, I feel like that that really

[11:33] what we need to do is impeach Paul

[11:35] before anything else because the public

[11:37] can't really

[11:39] understand the whole Nazarene position

[11:42] until that happens. And so now it's

[11:44] almost like that's just manifested

[11:45] before our eyes and

[11:47] um it's it's now in the in the public

[11:50] arena being discussed. There's all kind

[11:53] of reaction videos from

[11:56] Christian apologists trying to defend

[11:58] Paul. Um oddly enough, they don't

[12:01] do any defense of Paul. Uh it's a lot of

[12:03] grandstanding and it's a lot of

[12:05] attacking those that um criticize Paul.

[12:08] >> A lot of emotions.

[12:10] >> Right.

[12:12] So yeah, it's uh it's it's pretty

[12:13] amazing. And I think we're having a big

[12:15] effect just on not just that

[12:17] conversation, but

[12:19] there's a I saw a little bit of a video

[12:21] today of Dan McClellan talking about the

[12:24] whole

[12:27] the the Christian blood cult type of

[12:30] situation. So I mean it's starting to

[12:31] kind of

[12:33] even that part of our discussion is

[12:35] starting to hit hit the mainstream, so.

[12:38] >> Well

[12:39] these conversations we're having it

[12:41] brings back rationality to Christianity.

[12:44] So

[12:45] once once it starts proliferating into

[12:48] the the culture, I think a lot of people

[12:51] are going to start waking up and that's

[12:53] what we see happening.

[12:55] David, why do you think Christians are

[12:58] getting so triggered specifically by

[13:00] this topic? It seems like they really

[13:02] blow a gasket.

[13:04] What it is what is it specifically about

[13:06] the Paul conversation?

[13:09] >> I think that they know that their

[13:11] theology is completely based on Paul.

[13:16] You know it's

[13:17] it's like this

[13:20] that they lure you into the church

[13:22] preaching Jesus and then they deliver

[13:24] Paul. They don't you know they don't

[13:26] ever stick with Jesus. It's it's a

[13:29] religion

[13:31] about Jesus, but really in name only.

[13:34] So they if you take out Paul then they

[13:38] lose

[13:39] saved by faith alone, they lose

[13:42] the laws done away with and all of these

[13:45] pet doctrines that they have.

[13:47] Dispensationalism falls apart, which is

[13:49] really the basis of Protestantism at

[13:52] this point.

[13:54] So they'll they'll be forced to actually

[13:58] obey Jesus if we get rid of Paul and

[14:00] they can't have that.

[14:02] >> Well it's it's putting their salvific

[14:04] security at risk. A lot a lot of these

[14:07] people in their own minds believe

[14:09] they've secured salvation.

[14:11] So it's very discombobulating to will to

[14:15] >> Yeah.

[14:16] >> Absolutely,

[14:17] >> I I remember full well growing up in

[14:20] evangelical Christianity and you know,

[14:22] the vast majority of like worship songs

[14:24] you're singing on Sunday are all Pauline

[14:26] theology. For such a worm as I and I'm

[14:29] God, I'm just grateful that you would

[14:30] forgive a sinner like me and the blood,

[14:32] the blood, I drink the blood and pour

[14:33] the blood, the blood, the blood.

[14:35] And more than anything, I think it's

[14:36] just an ego reaction to being wrong

[14:39] about something, right?

[14:41] If you've been if you've spent thousands

[14:43] of hours in church with your arms raised

[14:45] high singing Pauline theology and

[14:47] thanking God for murdering Jesus on your

[14:49] behalf and then people come along and

[14:51] start exposing it as a total fallacy and

[14:54] in my opinion, a demonic inversion of

[14:55] Jesus's gospel.

[14:57] It's like the ego can't accept or

[14:59] swallow the concept that it could

[15:01] possibly have been that wrong about

[15:03] something. And I remember this cognitive

[15:05] dissonance with myself uh when I got my

[15:07] first pastoral job at Crossroads Bible

[15:10] Church in San Jose at 23 and I started

[15:12] to get annoyed that my pastor was

[15:14] literally only ever preaching Paul on

[15:16] Sundays.

[15:17] And then came the moment I've talked

[15:19] about on this podcast a lot where

[15:21] uh woman gives an offering testimony and

[15:23] her husband standing behind her and all

[15:25] this weird stuff and I'm like, wait,

[15:26] what are they doing here? And I come to

[15:28] find out like, oh, they take all these,

[15:30] you know, anti-woman passages in 2

[15:32] Timothy like literally like women can't

[15:34] even speak on a stage without their

[15:35] husband cuz they're defiled and you

[15:37] know, we know that Paul didn't write 2

[15:38] Timothy, but it's some Pauline group

[15:40] trying to harmonize Paul later. And I

[15:43] got so angry and triggered because I was

[15:45] newly married and my wife is sitting

[15:46] next to me like this this can't be

[15:48] right. Like this isn't what God wants.

[15:50] And I'm like, don't worry, babe. Like

[15:51] I'll find some other verse from Paul to

[15:52] dismiss this Paul verse away with, which

[15:54] is what we like to do in church, right?

[15:56] And I dug through the Pauline epistles

[15:58] looking for any like positive thing I

[16:01] could find that Paul says about women

[16:02] that I could use to say, oh, you're just

[16:04] taking 2 Timothy there out of context

[16:06] cuz over here in 1 Corinthians, Paul

[16:07] says great things about women.

[16:09] And uh the cherry-picking strategy that

[16:12] normally works didn't work and it made

[16:14] me more frustrated and kind of angry at

[16:16] God. Like why would you put such

[16:18] misogyny in your Bible? Now I have to

[16:20] believe and teach this. Like I know this

[16:22] isn't you.

[16:23] And as I'm rifling through Paul, I'm

[16:25] starting to for the first time in my

[16:26] Christian life see

[16:28] the problems with Paul.

[16:30] I'm seeing the narcissism. I'm seeing

[16:32] like this guy literally never stops

[16:34] talking about himself.

[16:36] And I'm seeing some of the like, you

[16:37] know, weird slights against the apostles

[16:39] and I'm just going why why is why is

[16:41] everyone focused on Paul so much and not

[16:43] Jesus? And began the journey of

[16:46] realizing that Paul definitely corrupted

[16:48] the Jesus movement. And it took me a

[16:50] long time after that to really come to

[16:52] that full conclusion. But I just that

[16:53] was enough for me to be like I I don't

[16:55] resonate with this. I'm out of here.

[16:57] So like one thing that happened for sure

[16:59] that I think spurred um

[17:02] this movement online with the whole Paul

[17:04] movement we're seeing is these big

[17:07] content creators picking up this

[17:09] message. And there's a bunch we could

[17:11] name but like I think the biggest one

[17:13] would be K. Poji.

[17:15] And I did I want to say I did a reaction

[17:17] video in like April or something of this

[17:20] year.

[17:21] And she had done this classic defense of

[17:23] Paul. You know, she used 2 Peter 3:16

[17:25] that we're going to talk about today.

[17:27] And I did a reaction video and just went

[17:29] through and kindly refuted all these

[17:31] points of like well here's what we say

[17:32] about that and why we don't accept that

[17:34] as a valid defense of Paul.

[17:36] And there was no response. But uh to K's

[17:38] credit, she messaged me

[17:40] a month or two later and basically said

[17:42] hey like you know, I watched your video

[17:44] and some of the things you said about

[17:45] Paul were like making sense and I

[17:47] started looking further into it and

[17:48] here's all this other stuff I found.

[17:50] And she starts presenting me with other

[17:52] Paul arguments that I never even thought

[17:54] of. And you know, K has a as a really

[17:56] unique mind for doing research. A lot

[17:58] like Cam in my opinion. Like just a nose

[18:00] for finding good you know, threads. And

[18:03] she's just as we know like exploded in

[18:06] on social media talking about this.

[18:08] >> I mean props to her. It takes a really

[18:10] courageous soul to

[18:12] maybe promoting one perspective and then

[18:15] to

[18:16] >> Flip.

[18:16] >> to flip to re-evaluate and look at the

[18:19] facts and flip.

[18:20] To me that's uh a really beautiful

[18:22] thing.

[18:23] >> I can count on one hand creators I can

[18:26] think of who've ever done that with

[18:27] anything. You know, usually it's

[18:28] carnivores or vegans or whatever. But

[18:30] this was the first one of like a

[18:31] Christian influencer who went full

[18:34] anti-Paul and she's only seen, you know,

[18:36] growth and resurgence from it. So yeah,

[18:39] we wanted to play a quick clip from Joe

[18:41] Rogan talking about this because to us,

[18:43] this was like the big moment of like,

[18:45] whoa.

[18:47] This conversation has arrived, my

[18:49] friends, because now we have the premier

[18:51] podcaster on planet Earth saying all the

[18:53] things we've been saying about Paul on

[18:55] this podcast and you've been saying

[18:57] David for a long time. And it was just

[18:59] for me, it was kind of surreal to listen

[19:00] to Joe Rogan talking to, you know, top

[19:03] prominent scholar Dan McClellan about

[19:05] this.

[19:06] >> And David hasn't seen this clip yet, so

[19:08] it'll be cool to get his live reaction.

[19:10] >> Yeah, this will be fun.

[19:12] >> More it just gives you pause. Like Paul

[19:14] was really kind of the creator of

[19:16] Christianity because he never met Jesus.

[19:19] So Jesus never spoke to him and Jesus

[19:20] never wrote anything down.

[19:22] And so when Paul has this vision, when

[19:25] he's on the road to Damascus and he has

[19:26] this, whatever it is, some spiritual

[19:28] encounter that he says he met Jesus,

[19:30] like we're taking the the entire

[19:33] religion is based on this guy saying I

[19:35] think he said all these things 20 years

[19:37] after he said them, but no one wrote it

[19:38] down and I never met him.

[19:39] >> Yeah.

[19:40] >> So it's really Paul.

[19:43] >> Yes and no. Um it it was two people. It

[19:46] was Jesus and there was Paul. Yes, Paul

[19:48] was a great organizer. Jesus of those

[19:50] various other rival Messiahs. Um Jesus

[19:53] had some advantages with his message. It

[19:55] was a universal message. It was not

[19:57] directed just to the Romans. It was not

[19:59] directed just to men. It was it was

[20:02] aimed aimed at everybody. Um so

[20:06] of the candidate Messiahs then, um Jesus

[20:08] had a particularly good message. Um but

[20:11] it took good messages aren't enough. It

[20:12] took Saint Paul as as the organizer.

[20:15] >> Yeah, but it's fascinating that Paul

[20:17] never met him and that Jesus never wrote

[20:19] anything down. So when Paul's talking

[20:20] about this, this is literally just from

[20:22] verbal history.

[20:23] >> Right.

[20:23] >> Which is really strange. An oral history

[20:26] that it takes 20 years before this guy

[20:28] says this is what Jesus said, and then

[20:30] we all go on that.

[20:32] >> Right. The the what's thought to be the

[20:34] first of the Gospels, um um Gospel

[20:36] according to Mark, um is estimated to

[20:39] have been written down something like 20

[20:41] years after the death of Jesus. So we we

[20:44] have have no

[20:46] first-person accounts of of Jesus.

[20:48] >> It would be really nice if he wrote

[20:49] things down.

[20:50] >> Um it would have [laughter] made things

[20:51] more certain. In the case in the case of

[20:53] Muhammad, um it was two centuries before

[20:56] things got written down. So we we know

[20:58] even less about Muhammad than we do

[21:00] about Jesus.

[21:02] >> So this actually wasn't the clip I was

[21:03] thinking of. I thought this was the Dan

[21:05] McClellan clip. I'm pretty sure he

[21:06] brings Paul up again on Dan McClellan,

[21:08] but suffice to say here he is basically

[21:10] making all the same arguments we make.

[21:12] Uh what are your thoughts, David?

[21:16] >> Yeah, I I think he raises some good

[21:17] points and

[21:19] and really so

[21:22] kind of to to segue from from these

[21:24] questions and the way that we've put all

[21:27] of our faith and all of our trust into

[21:30] Paul,

[21:31] this actually plays back into what we

[21:32] were discussing before the clip, which

[21:34] is why do people get so upset about

[21:36] Paul?

[21:37] It's because if

[21:40] if you're a member of a

[21:42] religion that bases

[21:45] your

[21:46] reasoning for salvation solely upon what

[21:48] you believe, it's just based upon what's

[21:50] up in here. It has nothing to do with

[21:52] what you do, your works, the way you

[21:54] live your life. It's just thinking the

[21:56] right things and having faith in those

[21:57] things.

[21:59] Well, if you find out

[22:01] that the things that you base that faith

[22:03] on

[22:04] were weren't true, didn't happen,

[22:08] then where is your salvation?

[22:11] You have no salvation. Now,

[22:13] Yeshua, Jesus, he taught salvation

[22:16] through works.

[22:18] So if your doctrines change,

[22:22] your works don't disappear. Like we all

[22:24] know what's what we should do, like

[22:27] do charitable works, love your neighbor,

[22:30] you know, help the old lady down the

[22:31] street that needs her yard mode or

[22:34] or somebody needs some help paying for

[22:36] the groceries in the grocery store, help

[22:37] them out. Whatever you got to do to to

[22:39] be

[22:40] that shining light in the world, those

[22:43] works never go away.

[22:46] But

[22:47] you know, if you're

[22:48] if your doctrine changes or you realize

[22:49] that you bought into a lie, then that

[22:51] salvation that you were counting on it

[22:53] just evaporates.

[22:55] >> Yeah.

[22:56] Yeah, exactly. And back to the ego

[22:58] conversation,

[23:00] I teach about this full-time in 40

[23:02] University of how to how to transcend

[23:04] ego, which I believe is the essential

[23:06] crux of Jesus's gospel. Deny thyself,

[23:09] take up the cross and follow me, follow

[23:11] the Christ.

[23:12] Uh Course in Miracles talks about how

[23:14] the ego and the Christ are at eternal

[23:16] odds with each other cuz the ego is

[23:17] pride. And

[23:20] if if your if your salvation is

[23:22] dependent on thoughts you think and

[23:24] believe in in your brain,

[23:25] it's like, okay, what do we know for

[23:26] sure the ego is involved in? Your

[23:28] thoughts. That's where the ego lives,

[23:30] like you said, David, it's up here.

[23:32] And where do we know for sure the ego

[23:34] isn't genuine good works of service to

[23:37] others? Ego has no interest in service

[23:39] to others. It's fully service to self.

[23:42] So if we're predicating salvation on

[23:44] what thoughts I believe in my brain,

[23:46] we're basically giving salvation

[23:47] completely over to the ego. And if we

[23:49] don't predicate it on good works, we're

[23:52] we're taking it away from the one true

[23:54] measuring stick, as you said, that you

[23:57] can actually quantify in real time. It's

[23:59] like, is this a righteous person who

[24:01] does good works or not? You can

[24:03] basically know the answer if you know

[24:04] the person, right? Does this person

[24:06] really believe Jesus died for my sins

[24:08] and rose on the third day, blah blah

[24:09] blah?

[24:10] I can't possibly know if someone

[24:11] believes that. They can say they believe

[24:13] it, but how do I know they're not just

[24:14] afraid of burning in hell or something?

[24:16] >> Yeah.

[24:16] >> So this is the big problem with the Paul

[24:18] conversation that it's not like we bring

[24:20] this up on this podcast so much cuz we

[24:22] just love to bash on Paul. We do it

[24:24] because it is central to this Jesus Way

[24:26] message that when 99% of on earth talk

[24:30] about Jesus,

[24:32] they are really referring to Paul in

[24:34] their mind. They're they're referring to

[24:35] the private Jesus of Paul's private

[24:37] visions, which as we can point out, was

[24:40] markedly different than the historical

[24:42] Jesus. And so that is a robbery of the

[24:46] true Jesus message, the true gospel that

[24:48] Jesus came to preach. And if we say we

[24:51] follow Jesus, he says, my sheep know my

[24:53] voice, the voice of another they will

[24:55] not follow.

[24:56] It's like, well, hey, guess what? Paul's

[24:57] literally the voice of another. And so

[25:00] we don't have to hate Paul or judge

[25:02] Paul. We can just say, ah, he's the

[25:04] voice of another. I'm just going to air

[25:05] on Jesus. It's not like we don't have a

[25:07] pretty hefty amount of Jesus's

[25:09] teachings, you know, chronicled and

[25:11] written down by, you know, early

[25:13] writers. We have a good amount of his

[25:15] gospel teachings that we can hang our

[25:16] hats on. And so our big argument here is

[25:18] like, why do we need anybody else when

[25:20] we already have the teachings of the

[25:23] master himself?

[25:24] >> Mhm.

[25:25] And let's consider how much the world

[25:28] would change

[25:29] if people,

[25:31] you know, billions of people suddenly

[25:33] understand

[25:34] that salvation is through good works.

[25:38] >> Mhm.

[25:39] >> It's not through mental ascent. It's

[25:40] through good works. The world would

[25:42] transform.

[25:43] >> Oh, man.

[25:44] >> It would absolutely transform if people

[25:45] are working diligently every day to help

[25:48] their neighbor,

[25:49] to tell the truth, to live an honorable

[25:51] life, how much will the world change?

[25:54] And and that's that's the will of the

[25:56] Father. The will will of the Father is

[25:58] for all of us to be uplifted, right?

[26:00] >> 100%

[26:02] Yeah, I mean, how could you

[26:05] bring a kingdom on the earth if

[26:07] you don't do the works of the kingdom?

[26:10] It's like Yeshua said, the kingdom of

[26:12] heaven's not going to come by you

[26:14] looking for it. It's it's kind of like

[26:17] how's that any different than than

[26:18] thinking about it or just having faith

[26:20] up here and not having faith in action?

[26:23] And

[26:24] so you know, when you think of it in

[26:25] that in those terms, works should be

[26:28] just common sense, a requirement

[26:32] to do

[26:33] what it was that Yeshua came to do.

[26:36] >> Yeah, that's that's another, you know,

[26:38] kind of straw man response you'll hear

[26:39] is like,

[26:41] Oh, you you think faith is bad and works

[26:42] are good? No, no, no, not at all. Faith

[26:44] is a total prerequisite to good works.

[26:47] We're just saying that you can't measure

[26:49] faith in any objective sense, but we

[26:52] know for sure that if you do have real

[26:54] faith in God, faith in Christ, then that

[26:57] faith will produce good works. This is

[26:59] what James said. This is what Jesus

[27:00] himself said. And so we have to measure

[27:03] real faith by the only thing we can

[27:05] actually measure by, which is how you

[27:07] live your life. The only way to know

[27:09] what someone believes is how they live

[27:10] their life, period.

[27:11] >> Yeah. And this is a really important

[27:13] distinction I want to ask David about.

[27:15] How is a Nazarene understanding of

[27:18] faith,

[27:19] different than a Pauline understanding?

[27:21] Because this really gets to the crux of

[27:23] this entire premise as well.

[27:27] >> Well,

[27:29] [clears throat]

[27:29] I think

[27:31] for one, Paul kind of he separates faith

[27:34] and works into these two different

[27:35] categories.

[27:37] And in some ways, he pits one against

[27:39] the other.

[27:40] Someone in a Nazarene faith or a

[27:43] Nazarene understanding would never do

[27:46] that. The the two of them go together.

[27:48] It's not that you can have one or the

[27:50] other or separate the two.

[27:52] It's it's the same way with belief.

[27:55] If you say that you believe that Yeshua

[27:59] is the Messiah,

[28:01] he is the king, he is the savior,

[28:04] then that belief will will be seen in

[28:07] obedience and submission and in in

[28:10] walking the way that he walked.

[28:13] You're not separating belief and works.

[28:16] You can't separate faith and works. They

[28:18] they go together.

[28:20] They're one and the same.

[28:21] >> Yep. Yeah, that's the argument is they

[28:23] they always have to go together.

[28:25] I look at it as like cause and effect.

[28:28] Faith is the cause of good works. Works

[28:30] are the effect of true faith. And so if

[28:32] we know that you can never have faith

[28:34] without good works, then all we have to

[28:36] do is measure good works. If you're not

[28:38] doing good works, you don't have faith.

[28:39] Sorry, it doesn't matter what you say.

[28:41] >> Yeah, and it's also a completely

[28:43] different definition of what faith is in

[28:45] the sense that in Pauline Christianity,

[28:47] faith is like believing in the blood

[28:51] sacrifice. That that was the atonement

[28:54] for sin, right? Or there's penal

[28:56] substitution, there's Christus Victor

[28:58] and Eastern Orthodox, but it's a very

[29:00] different conception of of faith.

[29:03] It's like I don't think the ancient

[29:05] ascenes would consider

[29:07] would think about faith like that at

[29:08] all. I think they would

[29:10] uh

[29:11] more see it as a a covenant with the

[29:14] creator and a a conviction in the

[29:17] goodness of the creator and the laws of

[29:19] the creator and a yoke to that

[29:21] >> Right.

[29:22] >> as opposed to like a

[29:23] blood I mean, maybe the the Pharisees

[29:25] and Sadducees their faith was more blood

[29:27] sacrifice

[29:29] connected.

[29:30] >> It's true. Yeah, I mean, it's if I have

[29:32] to believe in an event that took place

[29:34] thousands of years before I was born,

[29:36] I'm sorry, that's not what real faith

[29:38] is.

[29:39] Uh you've done lots of videos on this,

[29:41] David, and we've talked about this on

[29:42] this podcast. The Greek word pisteu, and

[29:45] you know, Jesus didn't teach in Greek,

[29:46] but it's the primary Greek word. Uh

[29:48] pisteu means to trust in, to commit

[29:51] oneself to, to obey.

[29:54] And that lines up with the gospel of

[29:56] Jesus of why do you call me Lord and not

[29:58] do what I say?

[30:00] And so let's go ahead and pivot now into

[30:02] the second Peter 3:16 conversation

[30:04] because if you guys have talked about

[30:06] this on your social media or been on

[30:08] ours, anywhere you see the Paul

[30:10] conversation on anyone's page right now,

[30:12] you're going to see just a absolute

[30:15] spamming in the comments of what Peter

[30:17] approved of Paul, second Peter 3:16.

[30:20] And

[30:21] this is very problematic for a number of

[30:23] reasons. Um for me, David, I've always

[30:25] taken the approach of you know, the

[30:27] textual critic approach of like, well,

[30:29] second Peter is a known forgery from the

[30:31] second century that no scholar alive

[30:34] thinks Peter wrote. And so we can't just

[30:36] say, well, this is what Peter thought

[30:37] about Paul when we know that. But

[30:40] watching your content over the last few

[30:42] years, I started to see you actually

[30:44] unpacking

[30:45] the language and the Greek behind this

[30:47] passage and showing that even the way

[30:49] that it's worded is a total

[30:51] misunderstanding of what uh the

[30:53] pseudonymous author here is actually

[30:55] trying to put in Peter's mouth. It's not

[30:57] actually the compliment that Christians

[30:59] think that it is. Um so if you want to

[31:01] kick us off and kind of go into your

[31:03] research on that, we'd love to have you

[31:04] take us through it.

[31:06] >> Okay.

[31:08] Um yeah, so

[31:11] and and I and I do have the same

[31:12] understanding that you do, that it is a

[31:15] pseudepigraph pseudepigraph work. It's

[31:18] not anything that Peter wrote.

[31:20] It was probably written

[31:22] maybe even 100 years after Peter died.

[31:26] But when it comes to

[31:29] putting out content on YouTube, just

[31:31] telling someone who brings up this

[31:35] passage that, oh, that's not really

[31:36] Peter, that that really doesn't you

[31:39] know, sway their opinion and it doesn't.

[31:40] It it makes it look like you're avoiding

[31:42] the argument when in reality you're

[31:44] trying to tell them the truth.

[31:46] >> Right.

[31:47] >> But even if we even if we take that for

[31:49] granted and we just say, okay, let's

[31:50] just assume that it was Peter that wrote

[31:52] it,

[31:53] when you get into it and you actually

[31:54] look at what's being said, it's not

[31:56] quite as clear-cut as

[31:59] some people like to think that it is.

[32:03] So here's the the passage in question, 2

[32:06] Peter uh we start at 3:15.

[32:08] And count the patience of our Lord of

[32:11] salvation just as our beloved brother

[32:13] Paul also wrote to you according to the

[32:15] wisdom given to him,

[32:18] as he does in all his letters when he

[32:19] speaks of them in these matters.

[32:22] There are some things in them that are

[32:24] hard to understand which the ignorant

[32:26] and unstable twist to their own

[32:27] destruction

[32:29] as they do the other scriptures.

[32:31] You therefore, beloved, knowing this

[32:33] beforehand, take care that you are not

[32:35] carried away with the error of lawless

[32:37] people and lose your own stability.

[32:40] So, there's a few elements in this that

[32:43] people like to point to. Um, first is

[32:46] Peter calling Paul a brother. Um, saying

[32:49] that he

[32:51] often they say well

[32:53] he's saying that God gave him wisdom and

[32:55] it's like well that's not really what it

[32:56] says. It says according to the wisdom

[32:58] given him, but it doesn't say from whom.

[33:01] Um,

[33:02] he writes in all these letters uh these

[33:04] things that are hard to understand.

[33:07] And so because they're hard to

[33:08] understand, the ignorant and unstable

[33:12] twist it to their own destruction. So,

[33:13] it's the fault of the ignorant.

[33:17] And this says as they do with the other

[33:18] scriptures, so they say oh well Paul

[33:21] Peter considered Paul's writings to be

[33:23] scripture.

[33:24] So, we can look at these various

[33:27] um presumptions that are made that they

[33:30] use to try and make the case that

[33:32] that Paul is being given some type of

[33:35] certification by Peter in these

[33:37] passages.

[33:40] So, we're going to start off with um

[33:44] the issue of him calling Paul a brother.

[33:48] Uh, there's a early Syriac Christian

[33:53] um I guess you could call it a like a

[33:56] devotional. It's a it's a document. It's

[33:59] got uh 20 parts or 20 tracts within it.

[34:04] And it's it's basically

[34:07] um written to encourage believers on how

[34:11] to live their lives, to uh

[34:13] convict them of places they need to work

[34:16] on and just basically it's like a um

[34:21] it's almost like a theological statement

[34:24] of morality.

[34:26] And

[34:27] in the Liber Graduum in Memra 13

[34:31] it says that um

[34:34] uprightness, the upright are not

[34:36] permitted to call a person by another

[34:38] name

[34:40] or to grieve him or call him something

[34:43] like a fool or contemptible or stupid or

[34:45] spiteful.

[34:46] For if it is able to give him honorable

[34:49] names, it does so. Yet if not, does not

[34:53] give him insulting insulting names, but

[34:55] calls the person simply by his regular

[34:57] name.

[34:59] So in other words, if you're a believer

[35:02] and you're upright, you shouldn't call

[35:04] people slanderous names. And if you if

[35:07] you can't call them anything else, just

[35:09] call them by their regular name.

[35:12] And then it goes on. It says it's not

[35:15] right

[35:16] for one who possesses the love of

[35:18] uprightness to give disreputable names

[35:21] to people, but he should call them

[35:23] honorable ones, my lord, my my mistress,

[35:27] or

[35:28] an older people, my father or my mother,

[35:31] and his neighbors, my brother and my

[35:34] sister, and the younger ones, my son and

[35:37] my daughter. If they do not like to

[35:39] refer to everyone in this way and become

[35:42] upright ones, they should call a person

[35:44] by his regular name,

[35:46] but not give him hateful names and

[35:47] grieve him so and so sin. For the evil

[35:51] one teaches people to call one another

[35:53] names.

[35:54] >> Mhm.

[35:55] >> So here we see an early Christian

[35:58] document.

[35:59] It's written in Syriac, which is

[36:01] essentially Aramaic

[36:03] with the Syriac font.

[36:05] So it's the same language that Yeshua

[36:08] and his apostles taught.

[36:11] And in this document it says that if

[36:13] someone is your enemy or your adversary,

[36:16] you just call them your brother.

[36:18] >> Wow.

[36:19] >> Which is exactly what Peter refers to

[36:21] Paul as.

[36:23] Furthermore, we actually have this

[36:25] example from Yeshua.

[36:27] In Matthew 26:48 through 50,

[36:32] this is where Judas is bringing the

[36:33] soldiers to take Yeshua into custody,

[36:36] which eventually leads to his

[36:38] crucifixion.

[36:40] And what does Yeshua say to Judas?

[36:43] He calls him friend. He says, friend,

[36:44] why are you here?

[36:46] So literally, right after Judas betrays

[36:49] Jesus with a kiss,

[36:51] Jesus doesn't call him

[36:53] an enemy

[36:55] or you know,

[36:56] any other type of disrespectful name. He

[36:58] calls him a friend. And if Yeshua can

[37:01] call him a friend

[37:03] and it's not a meaning that they are

[37:04] somehow in alignment because obviously

[37:07] they were not at that moment,

[37:09] then why does it mean something if Peter

[37:12] calls Paul a brother?

[37:14] >> Yeah.

[37:15] Yeah, that that argument always does

[37:17] like agitate me a little bit because

[37:19] it's like

[37:20] do you really think that just calling

[37:22] someone a brother means I agree with

[37:24] everything they think and teach and

[37:25] believe?

[37:27] In no way does that imply that.

[37:29] >> I've watched debates where they're

[37:31] debating and they'll be like, brother,

[37:32] brother. Like and they're literally

[37:34] going at each other.

[37:35] >> It's just a way to show goodwill.

[37:36] >> Yeah.

[37:37] >> Yeah.

[37:38] >> Yeah, I mean it's almost like if

[37:41] if you shake hands with someone then

[37:43] that means that you approve of

[37:44] everything they say.

[37:45] >> Exactly. The right hand of fellowship.

[37:48] >> Right. Yeah.

[37:49] Shook me He shook my hand one time so

[37:51] now I'm a certified apostle to

[37:53] >> Yeah.

[37:54] >> corrupt the doctrines however I want to.

[37:59] Uh also on this according to the wisdom

[38:02] given him,

[38:04] uh this I think is referring to just

[38:06] Paul's claims of wisdom,

[38:08] um which is

[38:11] brought up in in places like here in 1

[38:12] Corinthians 2:6 and 2:7

[38:16] um where he speaks about this this

[38:18] wisdom. He He has this knowledge, this

[38:20] secret and hidden wisdom of God which he

[38:23] calls the deep things of God.

[38:25] >> Gnosis.

[38:26] >> Yeah.

[38:27] >> Yep.

[38:28] And then Yeshua refers to someone

[38:31] teaching that it's okay to eat meat

[38:32] sacrificed to idols

[38:34] and he calls that the deep things of

[38:35] Satan. So

[38:37] I think

[38:38] yeah,

[38:39] I don't think Jesus really saw them as

[38:41] the deep things of God, this wisdom that

[38:44] Paul got from somewhere.

[38:45] >> Well, we know Paul did love

[38:47] >> a good meat sacrifice to an idol.

[38:49] >> Yeah, we know that.

[38:52] Uh next, uh this word hard to understand

[38:54] is uh

[38:57] And it's a it's a compound word. It's

[38:59] got a prefix of dis and then the root is

[39:02] noetos. Noetos means

[39:05] um good sense or uh good reasoning.

[39:10] But this prefix dis is I wanted to kind

[39:13] of touch on it for a minute.

[39:16] The

[39:17] the passage in 2 Peter 3:16 where it

[39:20] says hard to understand,

[39:22] the understand comes from the noetos.

[39:24] The dis is what is being translated as

[39:26] hard to.

[39:29] [clears throat] So the question is does

[39:30] dis really mean

[39:32] hard to or does it mean something else?

[39:35] So we use this actually in the English

[39:37] word dystopian.

[39:39] There's dystopian and utopian.

[39:42] And so utopian is like a place that's a

[39:44] paradise.

[39:46] Um topia is a

[39:49] um is a place.

[39:51] So

[39:52] dystopia is it

[39:55] a hard to place?

[39:56] Is it a place that's hard to get to or

[39:59] [laughter] I mean or is it a place

[40:02] that's had all the good stuff

[40:05] stripped away from it and all that's

[40:07] left is is terrible things?

[40:10] >> Yeah.

[40:12] >> So like you know when we talk about

[40:14] dystopia, no one says it's a hard to get

[40:16] to place. It's a a place that's just

[40:20] awful.

[40:20] >> Destroyed place.

[40:21] >> Dysfunction.

[40:23] >> Right.

[40:23] >> Right.

[40:25] Exactly.

[40:28] So here is a

[40:30] entry for dis. It's from a Greek-English

[40:34] lexicon by Liddell and Scott from 1863.

[40:38] And it says that one of the meanings of

[40:40] dis is destroying the good sense of a

[40:43] word or destroying the good sense of the

[40:45] root word. So

[40:47] in the in the case of dystopian,

[40:50] topian is place or topia.

[40:53] So does it mean destroying the good

[40:56] sense of a place? Yes. You know, and if

[40:59] you've ever watched a dystopian movie,

[41:01] you you know what that is.

[41:02] >> Mhm.

[41:04] >> So the same thing with noetos.

[41:07] If you're going to to destroy the good

[41:09] sense of understanding,

[41:11] what would that be?

[41:13] It would be like

[41:15] um believing something that's wrong

[41:17] that's going to destroy your

[41:18] understanding or

[41:20] believing something nonsensical or

[41:22] foolish.

[41:24] These are all things that would fit much

[41:27] more closely to the constructed meaning

[41:29] of this noetos.

[41:32] >> Mhm. Yeah, it's very like common

[41:34] vernacular, at least in English, to say

[41:36] like all that's a dystopian nightmare.

[41:39] You always hear those two words married

[41:41] or you'll hear that's that's some

[41:43] utopian dream.

[41:44] >> Mhm.

[41:45] >> you get those two opposites. It's like

[41:46] they're they're clear polarities to each

[41:47] other, right?

[41:49] >> Yeah.

[41:49] >> Right.

[41:51] So this word uh this noetos is actually

[41:54] used by Lucian

[41:56] in his uh I guess you would call it an

[41:58] essay, but it's it's about Alexander the

[42:00] False Prophet. And it's actually the

[42:02] exact same context that Peter's using.

[42:06] Peter is is referring to

[42:09] written words that are disno or yeah

[42:12] disnoetos.

[42:14] And that's exactly what Lucian is

[42:16] talking about. He he wrote a letter to

[42:18] Alexander. Alexander wrote back a

[42:20] response and he said that

[42:23] um his response

[42:26] uh had no connection with earth or with

[42:29] heaven, but were silly and nonsensical

[42:33] everyone.

[42:35] So the English translator of disnoetos

[42:38] in Alexander the first False Prophet

[42:42] translates disnoetos not as hard to

[42:44] understand, but as nonsensical.

[42:48] Which is a much more accurate

[42:51] description of this

[42:53] word, which is supposed to mean

[42:55] destructive to understanding.

[42:57] >> Mm.

[42:57] >> If you believe something that's

[42:58] nonsensical,

[43:00] that's going to destroy your

[43:01] understanding because you're putting

[43:02] your faith in something that's not true.

[43:04] >> Yeah. It makes more sense.

[43:08] >> And it totally sums up what we're

[43:09] saying.

[43:10] >> Mm-hmm.

[43:10] >> Paul's gospel is

[43:12] to Jesus's gospel.

[43:14] >> Yeah.

[43:15] Yeah, and like even the following

[43:16] context that it supplies in 2 Peter 3:16

[43:19] is like which the unstable and ignorant

[43:22] twist to their own destruction, right?

[43:24] It's already implying like this is a

[43:26] destructive doctrine. Like good luck

[43:28] twisting Jesus's gospel teachings to

[43:30] your own destruction.

[43:32] I don't know even how you could do that.

[43:35] >> Yeah, I mean Yeshua, his his doctrines

[43:38] are never hard to understand. They're

[43:39] very clear.

[43:40] >> Childlike.

[43:42] >> Mhm.

[43:44] One other thing I want to bring up is

[43:46] Calvin's commentaries.

[43:48] You know, Calvin is um he he rejected 2

[43:52] Peter. He didn't like it.

[43:54] And one of the reasons he

[43:56] Yeah, one of the reasons he disliked it

[43:57] was because of what is actually said in

[44:00] 2 Peter 3:16.

[44:03] So the the the portion on the screen,

[44:05] this is from 2 Peter 3:16 in his

[44:07] commentaries, and he says, and yet

[44:10] when I examine all things more narrowly,

[44:12] it seems to me more

[44:14] probable that this epistle was composed

[44:16] by another according to what Peter

[44:19] communicated

[44:21] then that it was written by himself. For

[44:23] Peter himself

[44:25] would have never spoken thus. He would

[44:28] have never spoken this way about Paul.

[44:31] So Calvin wanted to reject the epistle

[44:34] outright

[44:35] because he didn't believe Peter had

[44:37] written it because of what was said

[44:38] about Paul in it.

[44:39] >> Wow.

[44:41] And he's essentially the founder of

[44:42] modern-day Protestantism.

[44:44] >> Mhm.

[44:46] He he definitely knew what it said. He

[44:48] knew the meaning of

[44:50] >> Mm.

[44:51] Wow.

[44:53] >> Uh the other argument they I use is that

[44:55] Peter calls

[44:56] Paul's letter scripture.

[44:59] Well, the word the problem is the word

[45:00] for scripture is graphe and graphe just

[45:03] means writing. It doesn't mean

[45:04] scriptures.

[45:06] >> Yeah, see these English translations

[45:08] just go to such liberties to translate

[45:11] things the way that fits their

[45:12] theological beliefs. And when you unpack

[45:15] the the Greek like this, a lot of times

[45:17] you're like, this is just a complete

[45:19] uh dismemberment of what the passage is

[45:21] really saying, you know?

[45:25] >> Yeah, then they a lot of the times when

[45:27] they translate things in certain ways,

[45:29] it

[45:30] it's seems pretty obvious that they're

[45:32] trying to do it to protect Paul's

[45:33] doctrine.

[45:34] >> It's a narrative.

[45:35] They're protecting a narrative.

[45:37] >> Yeah, you really never see it go the

[45:38] other way. You never see a translation

[45:40] that like favors Jesus's teachings and

[45:42] against Paul. It's always one direction.

[45:44] >> always talks about how it always favors

[45:47] the anti

[45:49] or the pro sacrifice position or pro

[45:52] flesh

[45:54] consumption.

[45:54] >> Yep.

[45:55] >> Yeah.

[45:56] >> Yeah.

[45:56] >> It's all Pauline as well.

[45:57] >> Yep.

[45:58] >> And one other point I want to make is at

[46:00] the end of this so-called endorsement of

[46:03] Paul,

[46:04] Peter says, you therefore, beloved,

[46:06] knowing this beforehand, take care that

[46:08] you're not carried away with the error

[46:10] of lawless people

[46:12] and lose your own stability.

[46:14] Now, when I read that, knowing this

[46:16] beforehand, it reminds me

[46:19] of Matthew 24:25 where

[46:22] Yeshua says, behold, I have told you

[46:25] beforehand.

[46:26] So, in this warning

[46:28] where Yeshua is is telling people

[46:30] beforehand, warning them about

[46:32] a lawless person,

[46:34] the very next sentence he says, if

[46:36] therefore they tell you, behold, he's in

[46:38] the wilderness, don't go out, or behold,

[46:41] he's in the inner rooms, don't believe

[46:42] it.

[46:44] These are the two places that Paul

[46:46] claimed to have seen

[46:49] Jesus was in the wilderness on the way

[46:50] to Damascus,

[46:52] and he says three different visions of

[46:54] him in inner rooms of different

[46:56] buildings he was in.

[46:59] So it's almost like the the author of

[47:01] Second Peter, whoever that was, whether

[47:03] it was Peter or somebody else,

[47:05] it's almost like they're leading you

[47:07] back to this passage in Matthew 24

[47:10] uh 25 through 26, which is a warning

[47:13] against Paul himself.

[47:16] So that's that's all I have for the

[47:17] slides.

[47:18] >> Oh, can we Can you go back to the full

[47:20] quote real quick?

[47:21] >> Yeah.

[47:22] >> Yeah.

[47:25] >> 3:16 you mean?

[47:26] >> 3:16 yeah.

[47:26] >> Yeah.

[47:29] >> This one?

[47:29] >> Yes.

[47:31] So the the hilarious thing about all of

[47:33] this is that Paul and Christians when

[47:36] they when they show us this endorsement,

[47:41] they're making it seem like or they

[47:43] believe that Peter is saying that people

[47:47] like us are the ignorant and unstable

[47:51] twisting this to our own destruction

[47:54] and that we're the lawless people who

[47:56] have lost our stability

[47:58] when the exact opposite is what is being

[48:00] communicated.

[48:03] >> Yeah, that's a projection. That's what

[48:04] they call that.

[48:05] >> Yeah.

[48:06] >> This is what you see in this topic is

[48:08] the projections. Like

[48:09] I I think it's so kind of funny or

[48:11] ironic how like

[48:14] whenever you see these comments, I'll

[48:16] actually show you. I I went on my page

[48:18] and just like for two minutes just

[48:19] grabbed some screenshots cuz there's so

[48:21] many Second Peter 3:16, you know, Peter

[48:24] approved of Paul.

[48:25] Um and they they hit you with it like

[48:27] they've just dropped the most

[48:29] devastating defeat

[48:30] >> You've never heard this one, have you?

[48:31] I'm about to rock your world, Buster.

[48:33] [laughter]

[48:33] >> Totally. It's like that Do you really

[48:35] think in all of our, you know,

[48:37] researching and teaching against Paul's

[48:39] gospel that we just we've never

[48:41] encountered Second Peter 3:16?

[48:43] And it is funny how you could even

[48:45] assume someone would think that cuz like

[48:46] we, you know, we do debates sometimes.

[48:48] You prepare for your opponent and if you

[48:50] don't want to get smoked in a debate,

[48:52] you have to prepare for your opponent

[48:54] like they're they know their stuff and

[48:56] they've done their research and you

[48:57] better assume they have really good

[48:59] arguments and counter arguments. So like

[49:01] it is the worst move you could ever make

[49:03] to just assume your opponent has like

[49:04] never read a Bible verse and you're just

[49:06] going to drop a Bible verse and win the

[49:08] debate.

[49:08] >> Yeah.

[49:09] >> But the reason they do that is because

[49:10] that's what they do, right? They don't

[49:12] really do their research. They don't

[49:14] really dig into these things. For the

[49:16] most part, they probably go to church,

[49:17] hear their pastors talk, they watch

[49:19] apologetic channels who just spoon feed

[49:21] them these things and they're like,

[49:22] yeah, yeah, we've got the answers on

[49:23] lockdown this I don't need to dig into

[49:24] this further.

[49:26] And I remember that apprehension to dig

[49:28] into things further when I was a

[49:29] Christian. I had a big aversion to that

[49:31] and that's actually how I found James

[49:33] Tabor's work was when I was looking into

[49:35] things and I came across um his book on

[49:37] um the Talpiot tomb

[49:39] and it's like you you find it especially

[49:41] in scholarship like

[49:43] completely different takes on these

[49:45] things than you're hearing in church and

[49:46] you you read it and you're like, oh man,

[49:48] that's like a top level academic PhD

[49:50] scholar saying that my pastor is wrong

[49:52] and so you just like, I don't really

[49:53] want to do too much research on this.

[49:55] I'm just going to trust my pastor's done

[49:56] his research on it. And so because

[49:58] that's what they typically do, they

[50:00] project that onto you like, oh you've

[50:01] probably never even read this verse

[50:03] before.

[50:04] But um yeah, when your salvation is at

[50:05] stake, it's it can be scary to do that

[50:08] kind of research. So I get it.

[50:11] >> Well, one other point I think we should

[50:13] make here is that

[50:15] the the warning and that's what it is,

[50:18] it's a warning. It's not an endorsement.

[50:20] But the way that it's written out

[50:24] um if the problem is that Paul's

[50:27] teachings contain nonsensical things

[50:30] and you have ignorant and unstable Now

[50:33] the word for unstable is unestablished.

[50:36] So you got ignorant and unestablished

[50:38] people.

[50:40] Well, who is a teacher supposed to

[50:42] teach?

[50:43] Don't teachers teach people that are

[50:46] unlearned and unestablished?

[50:48] So if

[50:50] Paul is teaching things, now it can't be

[50:52] the fault of the student.

[50:54] If if the teacher can't teach a student

[50:57] in a way where they're not sharing

[50:59] nonsensical concepts with them,

[51:02] then it the the burden is on the

[51:04] teacher, not the student.

[51:06] >> It's a great point.

[51:07] >> Yeah.

[51:07] >> Now, the way it's translated, it puts

[51:09] all the burden on the students to know

[51:11] better.

[51:13] >> Yeah.

[51:13] >> Um

[51:15] so so if

[51:16] if it's not

[51:18] the students twisting the scripture, but

[51:20] it's the scripture twisting the student,

[51:24] then

[51:25] when he says it the twists the students

[51:27] as well as the other writings or the

[51:30] other scriptures,

[51:32] then

[51:33] it's almost like he's saying that that

[51:35] the nonsensical things don't only twist

[51:37] the unlearned and unestablished,

[51:39] it also twists the other scriptures. And

[51:41] that's what we see Paul doing.

[51:43] >> Wow.

[51:43] >> He's constantly quoting scriptures out

[51:45] of context and misquoting them and

[51:48] uh you know, twisting them to fit

[51:50] whatever he's trying to prove.

[51:52] Like he'll take a scripture that says

[51:54] the opposite

[51:55] of what he's saying, but he'll present

[51:57] it as if it's in alignment with what

[51:59] he's saying.

[52:00] >> Yeah.

[52:02] Yeah, and I feel like a lot of that has

[52:03] to do probably with the fact that

[52:05] illiteracy was so high in his day and

[52:08] age. Very few people could actually

[52:10] pick up the scriptures and read it for

[52:11] themselves. And so if he's quoting the

[52:13] Septuagint or whatever, like he probably

[52:15] is aware that 90% or something like that

[52:18] of his audience isn't going to be able

[52:19] to fact-check him on how he's quoting

[52:21] that.

[52:22] And he's this like highly trained

[52:23] Pharisaical scholar, right? So he's

[52:26] they're probably just going to outsource

[52:27] to whatever Paul's saying.

[52:28] But uh Jesus said, you know a tree by

[52:30] its fruit.

[52:31] A good tree cannot produce bad fruit.

[52:34] And that's you know, going back to what

[52:36] we said, like Jesus's gospel teachings,

[52:38] good luck twisting love your neighbor as

[52:40] yourself to your own destruction.

[52:43] And like I guess in some conceivable

[52:45] insane reality, you could come up with a

[52:47] weird scenario someone could do that. I

[52:49] don't know. I sure can't think of a way.

[52:51] Um and so that's another evidence of

[52:52] like these teachings aren't based in

[52:54] truth if they can be so easily twisted.

[52:57] And

[52:57] like we all grew up in Christianity.

[52:59] Like we this is what we were born into

[53:01] and believed for so long. Why why would

[53:04] anyone assume that we just all the

[53:06] sudden woke up one day as devout

[53:07] Christians? I was a pastor, pastor son.

[53:10] just woke up one day and just decided to

[53:12] start twisting Paul's scriptures to my

[53:13] own destruction.

[53:15] But Paul was my guy. I loved Paul's

[53:16] letters before that. It doesn't make any

[53:18] sense. So like you're saying, David, it

[53:19] really is the case that it's Paul's

[53:21] letters that twist people's minds to

[53:23] destruction.

[53:24] >> Mhm.

[53:24] >> And this was this is the criticism you

[53:26] see from the, you know, Jewish Christian

[53:28] sources, Nazarene sources going back to

[53:30] the Clementines, that Paul's gospel,

[53:33] even if Paul didn't wasn't trying to

[53:35] teach this, this lawlessness, right?

[53:37] People say, well no, Paul was uh Paul

[53:39] said good things about the law. It's

[53:40] like no none of us are saying that Paul

[53:43] said don't do good works. Good works are

[53:44] bad. Only believe. That's a straw man.

[53:47] Of course Paul said good things about

[53:48] the law. The distinction is Paul said

[53:51] you can't be saved by good works and you

[53:53] can only be saved by faith in Christ in

[53:56] his blood sacrifice. Of course good

[53:58] works are good and the law is good and

[53:59] you should do that, but just know it

[54:00] can't save you. And that's the problem

[54:02] we point out because Jesus said exactly

[54:05] the opposite. He said only by good works

[54:07] do I know you're my disciple and by no

[54:09] other way can you enter my kingdom and

[54:11] do not call me Lord Lord and not do what

[54:13] I say. So that's where Paul diverts from

[54:15] Jesus and why the first Nazarene

[54:17] Christians were accusing Paul of, hey,

[54:20] your teachings are giving people,

[54:21] especially in the Gentile world, right?

[54:23] This license to sin. This this is the

[54:26] the condemnation you hear is this

[54:27] license to sin, license to sin because

[54:30] he's teaching this radically new new

[54:31] message that, hey, God has come along

[54:33] with the Messiah and abolished the

[54:34] Torah. You don't have to keep that moldy

[54:36] old law. It can't save you. Just believe

[54:39] and confess. And so you can understand

[54:41] how pagan Gentiles hearing that might

[54:43] go, oh, cool. Sounds like we can have

[54:45] some orgies tonight as long as we

[54:46] confess and believe.

[54:48] So it's like maybe Paul wasn't teaching

[54:49] you can have orgies, but like that's

[54:51] what his his teachings led to in the

[54:53] first century.

[54:55] >> Mhm.

[54:57] Yeah, we see evidence of that in Paul's

[54:59] own letters.

[55:00] >> Exactly. He's correcting all his

[55:02] churches left and right.

[55:03] >> Yeah.

[55:07] >> So I'm going to go through now the

[55:08] second argument against 3:16,

[55:12] which is just the scholarship behind the

[55:13] text itself, which I think is really

[55:15] interesting. I I'm a sucker for good

[55:17] scholarship on on uh you know the origin

[55:20] of ancient texts. It's it's a really fun

[55:21] subject, but just to quickly show you an

[55:24] example like these are some of the

[55:25] comments you'll see on my page, James,

[55:28] David, Cam, um this kind of like really

[55:31] intense confidence

[55:33] behind this passage. Um surely Peter

[55:36] would not have called him

[55:38] his beloved brother, all caps.

[55:41] >> Donk.

[55:42] >> And warned us not to twist his letters

[55:44] cuz they are hard to understand. Stop

[55:46] the lie.

[55:48] Peter basically said Paul's writings are

[55:49] scripture. That's actually an argument

[55:50] against 2 Peter. Um

[55:53] this dude's premise is outrageously

[55:54] false. You're so wrong. Apostle Peter

[55:56] loved Paul. Despicable nonsense. 2 Peter

[56:00] affirms Paul's writings as scripture. So

[56:02] you just it's the same thing again and

[56:03] again.

[56:04] >> Oh look, they say they add God in there,

[56:06] the wisdom wisdom given to him, but they

[56:08] say the wisdom that God gave him.

[56:10] >> Oh yeah, there we go.

[56:11] All caps. The wisdom that Paul said that

[56:13] God gave him. Yeah.

[56:15] It always goes back to the circular

[56:16] reasoning of Paul said.

[56:19] So this is the

[56:20] the primary evidence and scholarship for

[56:22] why 2 Peter is totally disputed and

[56:25] again unanimously considered a forgery

[56:27] from uh the mid to late 2nd century and

[56:30] some scholars even put it early 3rd

[56:31] century for reasons I'll show you here

[56:33] in a minute.

[56:34] Um but here's a quote from our good

[56:36] friend and uh Jesus Way Podcast guest

[56:38] Dr. James Tabor. I believe this is from

[56:40] Jesus and Paul. Could be wrong, but he

[56:43] says

[56:44] uh one to two, Peter is in fact a

[56:45] production of a 2nd century Pauline

[56:48] group, an obvious attempt to associate

[56:50] Peter's theology with that of Paul.

[56:53] So he's kind of taken the conventional

[56:54] Christian understanding of you know that

[56:56] passage in 2 Peter there.

[56:58] But uh the facts are it is the single

[57:00] most widely disputed book in the New

[57:01] Testament. Nothing else even comes close

[57:04] in terms of the scholarship. And I mean

[57:05] that's to me that's saying something

[57:07] because you have like the pastoral

[57:09] epistles for example, first and second

[57:11] Timothy and Titus and those are like,

[57:14] you know, just textbook dead ringer

[57:16] forgeries, but second Peter annihilates

[57:18] them in terms of the just the weight of

[57:20] evidence.

[57:21] Uh it's agreed upon by all the top

[57:23] scholars you'll find even from Bruce

[57:25] Metzger who's like a Presbyterian

[57:27] Christian scholar, he says it's a

[57:29] pseudonymous text. Of course Ehrman,

[57:31] Tabor, Kester and so many others.

[57:33] Uh the academic debate really only

[57:35] focuses on is it a pseudepigrapha or a

[57:38] forgery, but not there's no discussion

[57:40] on is this written was this written by

[57:42] Peter in any way?

[57:43] And for those of you don't know the

[57:45] exact distinction there, pseudepigrapha

[57:47] just means like

[57:48] it wasn't written by the author, it's

[57:50] penned under whatever, but it wasn't

[57:52] intended to deceive people. It just kind

[57:54] of gained uh this title as as time went

[57:57] on kind of like the the Gospels, right?

[57:59] They don't like the Gospel of Mark

[58:01] doesn't call itself Mark, but it later

[58:03] was added that name and title as well as

[58:06] Matthew and Luke and so forth.

[58:07] Whereas a forgery is a definite

[58:10] deliberate attempt to deceive the reader

[58:12] into thinking this is Peter, the

[58:14] right-hand man of Jesus saying this to

[58:16] you, right?

[58:18] So the first piece of evidence in the

[58:19] passage is this kind of curious part

[58:22] where

[58:23] the author talks about ever since the

[58:24] fathers fell asleep

[58:26] and really he means apostles here

[58:28] which is kind of kind of funny.

[58:30] Uh the the founding generation has died

[58:32] and the death is a scandal demanding an

[58:34] answer. So as with all these forgeries

[58:37] in the New Testament like the pastoral

[58:39] epistles and first and second Peter,

[58:41] they were they were written in the

[58:42] second century to address evolving

[58:45] problems in the early Gentile church

[58:47] such as hey, Paul was banging on about

[58:50] how Jesus is coming back, Jesus is

[58:52] coming back, don't get a wife, don't get

[58:53] a job, Jesus is coming back.

[58:55] Jesus hasn't come back and Paul's gone,

[58:57] the apostles are gone. You know, how do

[58:59] we uh how do we answer our critics on

[59:01] this?

[59:02] [snorts] So the promises failed that

[59:04] this generation would not pass away, you

[59:06] know, as Jesus says or is quoted as

[59:07] saying in Mark 13:30.

[59:09] Um Peter dies probably between 64 to 68,

[59:12] not even a full generation after the

[59:14] crucifixion.

[59:15] And so the author, the pseudonymous

[59:17] author of Second Peter, tries to solve

[59:18] the problem by saying, well, but a

[59:20] thousand years is like a day.

[59:24] So he concedes the delay and relocates

[59:26] the promise to God's cosmic calendar

[59:28] there.

[59:31] And then as we talked about kind of

[59:32] calling even calling Paul's letter

[59:34] scripture is very problematic for saying

[59:37] this is a text written by Peter in the

[59:39] first century

[59:41] because even the phrase all his letters,

[59:44] we know that there was no collected

[59:45] circulating corpus of Paul's letters

[59:48] until and this is like the absolute most

[59:51] generous possible dating where Ignatius

[59:54] kind of mentions one or two of the

[59:56] letters of Paul to his letter to the

[59:58] Corinthians. And this is I think this

[1:00:01] date is wrong actually. Secular scholars

[1:00:03] say this is probably between 140 around

[1:00:05] 1 140 but

[1:00:07] some scholars say this could be around

[1:00:08] 108. So that's even the first mention of

[1:00:11] like a Pauline letter outside of the New

[1:00:13] Testament canon.

[1:00:15] We know that Origin is the first one to

[1:00:18] talk about Second Peter itself, which is

[1:00:21] like 230 to 240 AD. So we're talking

[1:00:23] like mid third century.

[1:00:25] The only place in the New Testament

[1:00:28] where one New Testament writing calls

[1:00:30] another scripture is this passage.

[1:00:33] And we can get into Marcion and how

[1:00:35] Marcion was the first guy to really

[1:00:37] champion Paul's letters and that's you

[1:00:40] know mid second century as well.

[1:00:42] It also says Paul is being distorted

[1:00:45] which presupposes an established history

[1:00:47] of interpretation, right?

[1:00:49] Well, Paul's letters are being distorted

[1:00:51] according to what?

[1:00:52] What standard?

[1:00:54] What person, right?

[1:00:56] In the 60s, Paul had been dead a few

[1:00:58] years and was still a highly contested

[1:01:00] figure.

[1:01:01] So this is another argument, right? Is

[1:01:02] the farther back you go in time, the

[1:01:04] more controversial and contested Paul's

[1:01:08] apostleship is. And the later you go in

[1:01:10] time, the more accepted his apostleship

[1:01:12] is

[1:01:13] which is another problem.

[1:01:16] Anything you guys want to add?

[1:01:18] >> Well,

[1:01:19] >> it's just interesting how um

[1:01:22] you know, the scripture is really

[1:01:23] writing. So even

[1:01:26] >> Yeah.

[1:01:26] >> And then um

[1:01:28] can you go back?

[1:01:31] Yeah, it's like uh there's this

[1:01:33] different even in academia there's this

[1:01:36] model that's kind of not understanding

[1:01:39] what David just broke down. Like some of

[1:01:42] these uh

[1:01:44] I think we got to bring this we got to

[1:01:45] bring this to Tabor.

[1:01:46] >> Yeah, yeah. [laughter]

[1:01:47] Yeah, I'd be I'd be curious to see if

[1:01:48] graphe is ever used for scripture if

[1:01:51] there's a different word. Do you know

[1:01:52] about that, David?

[1:01:55] >> I know it's always translated scripture

[1:01:57] in

[1:01:58] the New Testament.

[1:02:00] But there's that passage where um where

[1:02:03] pseudo Paul says

[1:02:05] all scripture is

[1:02:07] given under inspiration of God, but the

[1:02:10] is is added.

[1:02:11] So it should be all scripture given by

[1:02:14] God,

[1:02:16] which would imply that there's some

[1:02:18] scripture that's not given by God, which

[1:02:20] would be just a normal writing.

[1:02:22] >> Yeah.

[1:02:23] >> Um

[1:02:23] >> Good point.

[1:02:24] >> so

[1:02:25] and it's almost like this circular

[1:02:27] reasoning where they say, well,

[1:02:30] graphe is always translated as scripture

[1:02:33] in

[1:02:34] the New Testament, so they always mean

[1:02:36] scripture when they say it.

[1:02:38] But there's two instances, one here in

[1:02:40] uh 2 Peter 3:16 and the other one in uh

[1:02:44] that letter to Timothy where

[1:02:47] it's arguably not it should not be

[1:02:49] translated as scripture. It should be

[1:02:50] translated writing.

[1:02:52] >> Yeah, good point.

[1:02:54] And then of course on the 2 Timothy

[1:02:56] whatever passage of uh all scripture is

[1:02:58] God breathed,

[1:02:59] it's like but again,

[1:03:00] hermeneutics is to find out what is the

[1:03:03] context of this passage, who was it

[1:03:04] written to and when and why.

[1:03:06] And in that time when 2 Timothy was

[1:03:08] written, there was no established New

[1:03:10] Testament canon at all. That was, you

[1:03:12] know, 100 plus years later before we get

[1:03:14] anything like that from probably

[1:03:16] Marcion, right? So scripture to them

[1:03:18] would have been the Hebrew Bible, the

[1:03:20] Septuagint.

[1:03:22] And even in those early first few

[1:03:24] decades, there was many different gospel

[1:03:26] accounts circulating, um mostly which

[1:03:28] are probably not extant today. So, there

[1:03:30] was no established like, you know, it's

[1:03:31] Mark Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John.

[1:03:33] Those are the scriptures of the New

[1:03:34] Testament.

[1:03:35] >> Yeah. We weren't referring to the KJV.

[1:03:38] >> Yeah, exactly.

[1:03:40] >> Yeah. Well, I mean you brought up

[1:03:41] Marcion too that wasn't he the first one

[1:03:44] that really kind of collated all of

[1:03:46] Paul's letters?

[1:03:47] >> 100%

[1:03:48] >> So, 2 Peter 3:16 would have have to have

[1:03:51] been after

[1:03:52] Marcion, which would have been in the

[1:03:54] 150s.

[1:03:55] >> Mhm. Great point.

[1:03:56] >> Right around the same time, yeah, like a

[1:03:57] decade or two after. And uh yeah, a lot

[1:04:00] of these forgeries in the New Testament,

[1:04:02] the Pauline and first and second Peter

[1:04:04] forgeries are there's a lot of attempts

[1:04:06] to

[1:04:07] kind of get at the Marcionites and

[1:04:08] downplay what they're saying and kind of

[1:04:10] take Paul away from them, I think

[1:04:12] mostly.

[1:04:13] >> Yeah.

[1:04:15] >> And then this is uh Ehrman's best piece

[1:04:17] of evidence or favorite piece of

[1:04:18] evidence from his book uh forged,

[1:04:21] which is calling calling it your

[1:04:24] apostles.

[1:04:25] If it's like [laughter] if this is

[1:04:26] Peter, he's like, yeah, your apostles.

[1:04:28] Oh, me too though. I'm I'm an apostle.

[1:04:30] It's like very curious passage.

[1:04:33] Um so, you know, here the apostles are

[1:04:34] being invoked as a collective past

[1:04:36] closed body of authority.

[1:04:38] An apostle does not write about the

[1:04:40] apostles this way.

[1:04:42] So, this is the passage here that you

[1:04:44] should remember the words spoken in the

[1:04:46] past by the holy prophets and the

[1:04:48] commandment of the Lord and Savior

[1:04:49] spoken through your apostles

[1:04:52] in the past. Interesting.

[1:04:55] Now, this is one that I just added

[1:04:56] because this is

[1:04:58] David, this is the argument I go back to

[1:05:00] that I find to be like the most

[1:05:02] frustrating glaring blind spot

[1:05:05] for modern Christianity that I don't

[1:05:08] know how it doesn't bother them more is

[1:05:10] this whole distinction between, you

[1:05:12] know, Gentile and Jewish Christianity

[1:05:15] and how the two, you know, scholars call

[1:05:17] it the parting of the ways, that there

[1:05:19] is no question or debate that first form

[1:05:21] of Christianity was the Nazarene form.

[1:05:24] And after the destruction of the temple

[1:05:26] in 70 AD or right before it, um you know

[1:05:29] Rome bans the Jews during the war with

[1:05:31] the Jews from the Roman all Roman

[1:05:33] jurisdictions and so even Orthodox Jews

[1:05:36] and Nazarene Jews had to flee from all

[1:05:39] Roman territories to avoid this war and

[1:05:41] we know the Nazarenes opted out and

[1:05:43] would not fight on behalf of the Jews

[1:05:46] against Rome. And so we have multiple

[1:05:48] accounts, historical accounts showing

[1:05:50] that Peter and the apostles fled to

[1:05:52] Pella to escape from Rome destroying the

[1:05:55] temple.

[1:05:57] They definitely didn't flee to Rome

[1:05:59] during the war with Rome, right?

[1:06:02] It's just the craziest idea that Peter

[1:06:04] started the church at Rome. And of

[1:06:06] course we know Peter did it because of

[1:06:07] Paul's letter in the probably early 50s

[1:06:10] or maybe even late 40s. He writes to the

[1:06:12] Romans in the book of Romans and he's

[1:06:14] clearly states that he's never been

[1:06:15] there before. He's kind of beseeching

[1:06:18] them to like accept me in your movement

[1:06:20] and come list let me come preach my

[1:06:21] gospel to you and

[1:06:23] um he greets like 26 people by name at

[1:06:26] the church and never mentions Peter or

[1:06:29] even Linus or any of the Rome first

[1:06:30] Roman bishops that are purported by the

[1:06:33] Catholic Church. And you know it's just

[1:06:34] impossible to imagine that Paul would be

[1:06:37] writing a letter to the Roman Church

[1:06:39] founded by Peter who Paul knows

[1:06:40] personally and not even mention Peter's

[1:06:43] name. It's like if you want a guaranteed

[1:06:45] way to get your letter tossed in the

[1:06:46] garbage can by this church, don't

[1:06:48] mention their pope in the letter, right?

[1:06:50] It's just impossible to think he would

[1:06:51] have done this. So Paul's letter proves

[1:06:53] Peter started no such church at Rome as

[1:06:55] Catholic Church claims. But Eusebius in

[1:06:58] church history, Epiphanius in the

[1:07:00] Panarion and even the Clementine

[1:07:02] recognitions all agree that the

[1:07:04] disciples were warned by Christ in a

[1:07:07] dream to flee the coming destruction of

[1:07:09] Jerusalem and the temple and go to

[1:07:12] Pella. And we know that that's where the

[1:07:13] whole Nazarene movement really

[1:07:15] flourishes after that in that

[1:07:17] Transjordan Pella Cole Syria kind of

[1:07:19] region.

[1:07:21] And so So, another argument against

[1:07:22] second Peter being this like uh written

[1:07:24] from a Roman church by Peter kind of

[1:07:26] like to the Romans about you know church

[1:07:28] issues. It just makes no historical

[1:07:30] sense and as I often say to you know

[1:07:34] Catholics and Eastern Orthodox friends

[1:07:37] it's like if you claim that your whole

[1:07:39] church your whole apostolic tradition

[1:07:41] rests on Peter Peter and Paul whatever

[1:07:44] but Peter's like you know he founded our

[1:07:45] church it's like show me one single

[1:07:48] piece of evidence that Peter was ever in

[1:07:50] Rome or started a church in Rome let

[1:07:52] alone

[1:07:53] like if if he's the Pope surely there's

[1:07:56] some kind of written document some

[1:07:58] liturgy some council meeting from Peter

[1:08:02] a commandment from Peter to the Roman

[1:08:03] church there is no such writing or

[1:08:06] evidence at all there's just these kind

[1:08:08] of later church fathers saying oh yeah

[1:08:09] we know that hundreds of years ago Peter

[1:08:11] started our church and it's all based on

[1:08:13] the hearsay of like Polycarp you know

[1:08:15] two centuries later. So, it just it's

[1:08:17] crazy to me I don't know.

[1:08:20] Anything you guys want to add?

[1:08:23] >> Well, I mean it was nice of Paul to

[1:08:26] recognize his

[1:08:27] Herodian kinsman.

[1:08:30] [laughter]

[1:08:31] May maybe that's the line where he was

[1:08:33] going to put Peter in there too but he

[1:08:34] just ran out of room.

[1:08:36] >> You know that's a good theory David.

[1:08:37] Never thought of that before.

[1:08:39] [laughter]

[1:08:41] So, this is a big one.

[1:08:42] Second Peter copies Jude word for word

[1:08:45] about 80 words identically in Greek

[1:08:48] and here's the problem with it right? We

[1:08:50] know that the Jewish Christians

[1:08:51] Nazarenes were a very Enochian strain of

[1:08:55] Judaism like the Essenes the the whole

[1:08:57] Essene type of Judaism

[1:08:59] it it appears to be from all the

[1:09:01] evidence we have in the Dead Sea Scrolls

[1:09:03] and so forth they really looked more to

[1:09:05] Enoch as the patriarch of their faith.

[1:09:08] Not that they didn't also revere Abraham

[1:09:10] but not in the way that the Orthodox

[1:09:12] Jews of the day did right? They really

[1:09:14] saw Enoch as the great prophet that they

[1:09:16] followed after for many reasons we've

[1:09:19] talked about but you know Jesus has all

[1:09:21] kinds of quotes and and parallelisms

[1:09:24] with the book of Enoch the book of

[1:09:26] James, the Epistle of James also does,

[1:09:28] and the Book of Jude, which Jude was the

[1:09:31] other younger brother of Jesus. He

[1:09:34] quotes directly from Enoch and he calls

[1:09:35] Enoch a prophet.

[1:09:37] Now, curiously, the pseudonymous author

[1:09:40] of Second Peter keeps that surrounding

[1:09:42] material but removes the Enoch portion.

[1:09:45] And the basic point here is that a first

[1:09:47] generation Jewish Christian has no

[1:09:49] reason to scrub Enoch, right?

[1:09:52] Especially if Jude is quoting Enoch.

[1:09:54] But a later writer, a Gentile Greek

[1:09:56] writer, as canon boundaries began to

[1:09:58] harden, has every reason to omit the

[1:10:01] Enoch. And we know that all the kind of

[1:10:02] Enochian strain of Judaism was heavily

[1:10:05] scrubbed out of the Greek New Testament.

[1:10:07] So that's another pretty damning piece

[1:10:09] of evidence there.

[1:10:15] So this book, as I said, also has the

[1:10:17] worst, you know, historical attestation

[1:10:19] of any New Testament text. No writer

[1:10:22] even named Second Peter until Origin and

[1:10:24] again the mid third century, who in the

[1:10:27] same breath reports that it's highly

[1:10:29] disputed.

[1:10:30] So even the early Church Fathers

[1:10:32] disputed Second Peter.

[1:10:35] And then Eusebius around 325 classes it

[1:10:37] among the

[1:10:40] which I think just means like disputed

[1:10:42] texts, something like that.

[1:10:44] And notes that ancient presbyters never

[1:10:46] quoted from it. So it's definitely

[1:10:48] written very late. This is one of the

[1:10:49] pieces of evidence that makes scholars,

[1:10:51] some scholars think it might be early

[1:10:53] third century.

[1:10:55] And it's omitted from the Syriac

[1:10:57] Peshitta for centuries as well. And as

[1:11:00] as you pointed out, David, the Syriac

[1:11:02] Aramaic whole tradition is really the

[1:11:05] one that we follow most closely, being

[1:11:07] that it was essentially the language

[1:11:08] spoken by Jesus and the Apostles.

[1:11:15] Now this is what Bart Ehrman also gets

[1:11:16] into in Forged, which I find really a

[1:11:19] really interesting argument, that if you

[1:11:21] just look at ancient literary rates,

[1:11:24] sorry, ancient literacy rates,

[1:11:26] uh

[1:11:27] you find that, you know, virtually

[1:11:28] nobody would have been able to write a

[1:11:31] highly sophisticated Koine Greek text

[1:11:34] like Second Peter outside of a highly

[1:11:36] trained Greek scribe. And so even if you

[1:11:39] try to say that Peter wrote First and

[1:11:42] Second Peter, it's like, okay, well, he

[1:11:44] would have had probably needed a decade

[1:11:47] of Greek scribal training to write a

[1:11:49] document that that well. And where's he

[1:11:52] going to get the money for that? You

[1:11:54] know, he's a he's a peasant

[1:11:56] from Galilee. Like where's he getting

[1:11:57] the money for this Greek scribal

[1:11:58] training?

[1:11:59] Um I've pointed out to Christians in the

[1:12:02] comments often that I mean, the Book of

[1:12:04] Acts directly says, Acts 4:13, that both

[1:12:07] Peter and John were agrammatoi, which

[1:12:10] means

[1:12:11] uh illiterate,

[1:12:12] which I think is on the next slide. But

[1:12:15] these scholars here say that in Roman

[1:12:17] Palestine, probably 3% at most were

[1:12:21] illiterate. Uh in urban villages, maybe

[1:12:23] 1%, and they would have been literate in

[1:12:25] Hebrew, not Greek.

[1:12:27] So that's a problem.

[1:12:29] And Capernaum, which is where Peter was

[1:12:30] from,

[1:12:31] 600 to 1,500 people, no public

[1:12:34] buildings, no inscriptions, no trade

[1:12:35] route. It was a very predominantly

[1:12:38] illiterate uh city.

[1:12:42] The only two literary authors that are

[1:12:44] known from first century Palestine are

[1:12:46] Josephus and Justice of Tiberius. So we

[1:12:49] don't even have a lot of examples of,

[1:12:51] you know, Hebrews from

[1:12:53] Palestine that could write at all, let

[1:12:55] alone in Greek.

[1:12:57] Uh the other big argument that Ehrman

[1:12:59] makes is that reading and writing were

[1:13:00] actually separate skills.

[1:13:03] And if you've ever tried to learn

[1:13:03] another language, you figured this out

[1:13:05] pretty quick, right? There's a big

[1:13:06] difference even between understanding a

[1:13:09] language and speaking it,

[1:13:11] let alone reading and then writing it.

[1:13:13] You can learn to read a language, you

[1:13:16] know, relatively quickly if you want to,

[1:13:18] but to write is like 10 times harder,

[1:13:21] right? Cuz now you've got to think of

[1:13:23] how to structure the sentences,

[1:13:25] prefixes, suffixes. There's so many

[1:13:28] linguistic artifacts you have to get in

[1:13:29] the right spot to

[1:13:31] a correct sentence, but to just learn

[1:13:33] what words mean and read is not that

[1:13:35] difficult, right?

[1:13:36] >> I'm learning Portuguese right now and I

[1:13:38] can

[1:13:39] I can kind of decipher what sentences

[1:13:42] say,

[1:13:43] but if I was left to my own devices to

[1:13:45] write out, I've I'm lost.

[1:13:48] >> Yeah, even a few words is difficult.

[1:13:51] Um yeah, and then Acts 4:13 calls Peter

[1:13:54] a grammatoi, which literally means

[1:13:57] unlettered. And I've researched this one

[1:13:59] especially because it's an argument I've

[1:14:00] used a lot.

[1:14:01] And this is the primary word used in the

[1:14:04] ancient Greek world for someone who is

[1:14:07] illiterate and cannot write is a

[1:14:09] grammatoi. A lot of times the counter

[1:14:11] argument is, well, a grammatoi just

[1:14:13] means not educated at a high level.

[1:14:18] And so I say, okay, well, show me a

[1:14:19] piece of ancient literature that uses a

[1:14:21] grammatoi in that way, right? It's

[1:14:23] always used to mean this person can't

[1:14:25] read or write.

[1:14:28] And then the final argument that I've

[1:14:30] gotten when I point out that 2 Peter is

[1:14:32] a known forgery is they'll say, well,

[1:14:35] but Peter could have dictated the book

[1:14:38] to a Greek scribe. And again,

[1:14:42] very few scholars would say that Peter

[1:14:44] or any of the apostles, even Jesus,

[1:14:46] would have been like fluent in Greek.

[1:14:49] It's it's very hard to make that

[1:14:50] argument.

[1:14:51] Most likely if he was going to dictate

[1:14:53] something, it would have been in Aramaic

[1:14:55] to a scribe that understands Aramaic and

[1:14:57] can write in Greek. So that's kind of

[1:14:59] the argument being made, but there's

[1:15:00] even bigger problems with that.

[1:15:03] I think 1 Peter says, you know, I'm

[1:15:05] writing this to you through Sylvanus,

[1:15:07] which

[1:15:09] a lot of Christians will try to sort of

[1:15:10] presuppose must mean a scribe, but

[1:15:13] scholars, most scholars think it just

[1:15:14] means the letter's carrier, the person

[1:15:16] who's delivering the letter.

[1:15:18] Uh it does not read at all like a

[1:15:20] translated Aramaic text. It reads as an

[1:15:23] original Greek with rhetorical

[1:15:25] flourishes and that high sophistication

[1:15:27] you get from Greek scribal writings.

[1:15:31] Uh dictating in Greek demands the same

[1:15:33] fluency as writing it. That's a big

[1:15:34] point.

[1:15:36] Um plus it would require Septuagint

[1:15:38] knowledge, which means Peter would have

[1:15:40] had to have been able to read Greek at a

[1:15:42] pretty high level to even remember

[1:15:44] passages from the Septuagint that he

[1:15:46] quotes.

[1:15:47] And then the final argument that Ehrman

[1:15:49] makes is that there is no example of

[1:15:50] this anywhere in the ancient world

[1:15:52] anyways, right? If you're even going to

[1:15:54] make this argument that well Peter was

[1:15:55] was saying this in Aramaic to a Greek

[1:15:57] scribe, we have no examples of this ever

[1:16:00] taking place. Uh not one attested case

[1:16:03] of composing a letter essay under

[1:16:05] another man's name and no ancient

[1:16:07] discussion of the practice as legitimate

[1:16:10] or

[1:16:11] illegitimate. So these these are the big

[1:16:13] problems you have to answer to if you're

[1:16:15] going to quote if you're even going to

[1:16:17] use 2 Peter 3:16, right? As an argument

[1:16:20] to defend Paul, you've got to deal with

[1:16:22] all of these problems. And so it's like,

[1:16:24] you know, good luck getting through this

[1:16:27] massive body of evidence that scholars

[1:16:29] have composed. And you know, what I

[1:16:31] would say is like again, we love

[1:16:33] everybody. We love Pauline Christians

[1:16:35] just the same. We're not here to

[1:16:37] rain on anyone's parade or bash on

[1:16:39] anybody's beliefs. It's just uh the fact

[1:16:42] of if you say you want to believe what's

[1:16:44] true,

[1:16:46] what is true should really matter to

[1:16:48] you, right? This was my conviction as a

[1:16:50] Christian, a young Christian pastor was

[1:16:53] I don't want to just close my eyes, plug

[1:16:56] my ears and say la la la when I see

[1:16:58] these contradictions because I will not

[1:17:00] be able to sleep at night. I can't

[1:17:02] stomach knowing that I'm believing

[1:17:04] things that are provably untrue because

[1:17:07] all truth is God's truth. And so if

[1:17:10] something is not true, it is not of God.

[1:17:13] Bottom line, right? And so you should

[1:17:15] not want to believe anything that's not

[1:17:18] true.

[1:17:19] And so if we just present these kinds of

[1:17:21] basic problems with a text like 2 Peter,

[1:17:24] you know, it should bother any Christian

[1:17:26] who wants to believe the truth about

[1:17:28] Jesus and his message and you know, not

[1:17:31] just delude yourself into believing what

[1:17:33] other people have told you. I mean this

[1:17:35] is what

[1:17:36] uh Christians will accuse any other

[1:17:38] religion of doing, Muslims, Hindus,

[1:17:40] Buddhists, whatever. It's like you guys

[1:17:42] are just blindly believing in this false

[1:17:43] religion.

[1:17:44] Well then let me make sure that I'm not

[1:17:46] doing that too, right?

[1:17:48] >> And there's real world consequences.

[1:17:50] There's victims from

[1:17:53] And again, we love everybody, but

[1:17:55] this

[1:17:57] this whole animal sacrifice factory

[1:17:59] farming system in a way is based off of

[1:18:04] the perversion of the original way. Like

[1:18:06] if we had preserved the original way,

[1:18:09] which included peace and love for all of

[1:18:12] God's creatures,

[1:18:15] I mean the the

[1:18:16] all so much of this bloodshed comes

[1:18:19] comes back to

[1:18:20] Paul promoting

[1:18:22] uh this

[1:18:24] sacrificing animals and

[1:18:26] >> Using the sacrificial system to prop up

[1:18:28] his view of Jesus, which is also

[1:18:31] extremely problematic as we know. When

[1:18:33] you study the scholarship on this, you

[1:18:35] find scholars are not even sure that the

[1:18:37] Jews believed that animal sacrifice was

[1:18:40] atoning for their sins, right? Even

[1:18:42] that's

[1:18:43] really impossible to prove with the

[1:18:45] Hebrew Bible because a lot of scholars

[1:18:47] are saying now like it seems like animal

[1:18:49] sacrifice was a way to cleanse God's

[1:18:51] temple of the sins that the people are

[1:18:53] bringing in and that why they spray the

[1:18:55] blood all over the altar and the temple

[1:18:57] floor. It was kind of this metaphysical

[1:18:59] um detergent or whatever that they

[1:19:01] believed the life is in the blood, so

[1:19:03] you spray the life all over God's temple

[1:19:04] and it cleanses the death, the the sin.

[1:19:06] So even that is problematic, but yes, it

[1:19:08] all it all contributes to the way we

[1:19:11] treat animals to this day.

[1:19:12] >> Yeah.

[1:19:13] David, what are

[1:19:15] what do you think are the implications

[1:19:17] of

[1:19:19] what we're talking about here, the the

[1:19:21] inclusion

[1:19:23] of pseudepigrapha, if we're going to be

[1:19:25] kind,

[1:19:26] >> Yeah.

[1:19:27] >> or just the of false scriptures in the

[1:19:30] in the canon?

[1:19:33] >> Well I I think that

[1:19:35] Aaron's right. Um anything that is false

[1:19:37] is not of God.

[1:19:39] So,

[1:19:40] if there is text that we know is false

[1:19:44] in the scripture or in the canon, it

[1:19:46] should be removed, right?

[1:19:48] Like why would you want to keep

[1:19:49] something false in it? Um

[1:19:52] and ironically, this is one of those um

[1:19:54] I guess light bulb moments that

[1:19:57] a lot of the the Paul followers have

[1:19:59] when we bring up the the problems with

[1:20:01] Paul is suddenly they want to get rid of

[1:20:03] all the text

[1:20:05] that's questionable.

[1:20:06] >> Mhm.

[1:20:06] >> I guess it's like a light bulb goes off

[1:20:08] and then they're like, well, we need to

[1:20:10] get rid of Luke and we need to get rid

[1:20:12] of Peter and we need to get rid of Acts

[1:20:16] and this and that and we need to get rid

[1:20:18] of you know, the the Wizard of Oz, we

[1:20:21] need to get rid of Star Wars, we need to

[1:20:23] get rid of the revolution the American

[1:20:25] Revolution. We got to get rid of

[1:20:26] everything. Um

[1:20:29] [laughter]

[1:20:30] and and they say that like

[1:20:33] like the I mean the question is like,

[1:20:34] okay, so we're telling like we're not

[1:20:36] really advocating for getting rid of the

[1:20:38] books, right? Because why would we want

[1:20:40] to get rid of it? Because the best

[1:20:42] evidence against Paul is in his letter,

[1:20:44] so why would we get rid of that? Um I

[1:20:47] don't have a problem with Luke. I think

[1:20:48] Luke just wrote what Paul told him to

[1:20:50] write.

[1:20:51] >> Mhm.

[1:20:51] >> Um you know, and

[1:20:53] and with Second Peter,

[1:20:56] uh you just went over all these reasons

[1:20:58] why we know it's it's not a genuine

[1:21:00] letter, but even if we

[1:21:03] were going to treat it as a genuine

[1:21:04] letter,

[1:21:06] um

[1:21:07] just going off that theory, just because

[1:21:10] Peter said something about Paul doesn't

[1:21:12] mean we have to get rid of Peter.

[1:21:14] Um

[1:21:15] >> Right.

[1:21:16] >> but but on the other hand,

[1:21:18] if someone is saying, oh, so now that we

[1:21:20] realize that there's questions about

[1:21:22] Paul, then we should get rid of these

[1:21:24] others because they're false. Well,

[1:21:26] absolutely. Like why would you want to

[1:21:29] keep something that's not true?

[1:21:32] >> Right.

[1:21:32] >> So so it doesn't seem to be as much of

[1:21:34] like a gotcha as they try to

[1:21:37] to use it as.

[1:21:38] >> Yeah.

[1:21:39] Yeah, again, it's always a projection of

[1:21:41] how

[1:21:42] believe or their presuppositions onto

[1:21:44] us. And every time I get this argument,

[1:21:47] this is how I respond. It's always, oh,

[1:21:49] so you just reject Luke and Acts and all

[1:21:51] this stuff. Oh, you so you just reject?

[1:21:53] And I say, what do you mean reject? What

[1:21:56] does that mean? I don't understand what

[1:21:57] that means.

[1:21:59] Like I study the Bible academically. No

[1:22:01] academic rejects a text like it's an

[1:22:03] ancient text. We study it as an ancient

[1:22:05] text. What do you mean reject? And I

[1:22:08] I've never had a response to this.

[1:22:09] Either it's that that's the last, you

[1:22:11] know, comment that they exchange with me

[1:22:13] or they'll kind of pivot to something

[1:22:14] else because I think they realize when I

[1:22:16] ask them that, oh, you really say I

[1:22:19] don't mean I don't take it to be an

[1:22:20] infallible text written by God.

[1:22:23] That's what they mean when they say you

[1:22:24] rejected.

[1:22:25] I'm not rejecting it. I don't think it's

[1:22:27] an infallible text written by God for

[1:22:29] these kinds of reasons. Now, would you

[1:22:31] like to defend all these arguments that

[1:22:33] scholars make and and debunk them? And

[1:22:35] then maybe you can convince me it's

[1:22:37] infallible. But until you can do that,

[1:22:39] I'm going to air on the side of what

[1:22:40] appears to be true because again, all

[1:22:42] truth is God's truth. And so if there's

[1:22:44] all these problems appearing around a

[1:22:46] text or someone's gospel or whatever,

[1:22:50] I'm going to have I'm going to be

[1:22:51] suspicious of it. And of course, I don't

[1:22:53] think there's such a thing as an

[1:22:54] infallible text. As you've pointed out,

[1:22:56] David, you literally can't even claim a

[1:22:59] text is infallible. Language doesn't

[1:23:01] even work that way. You can only claim

[1:23:03] or appeal to your subjective

[1:23:05] interpretation of the text being

[1:23:07] infallible, which is of course a total

[1:23:10] logical fallacy.

[1:23:13] >> Yeah, I mean once once a human being

[1:23:16] writes anything,

[1:23:18] it's human. You know, humans are not

[1:23:21] infallible. So how can how can a fa

[1:23:23] infallible creature write an infallible

[1:23:26] text?

[1:23:27] >> Exactly.

[1:23:28] >> I think the furthest you could go with

[1:23:30] it is is it true or is it false?

[1:23:32] But you can't go past true to to the

[1:23:35] level of infallible unless you're

[1:23:37] talking about God himself.

[1:23:39] >> Mhm.

[1:23:39] >> Right.

[1:23:40] There there's so many problems with

[1:23:42] claiming that a text is inherent and

[1:23:44] infallible, it's like

[1:23:46] how would you even know if you were

[1:23:48] reading an infallible text? know? Like

[1:23:50] what would be your litmus test to know

[1:23:52] that a text is inerrant in the first

[1:23:54] place?

[1:23:55] >> And and uh an individual could take a a

[1:23:59] true statement in a text

[1:24:01] and interpret it completely wrong. Like

[1:24:03] every every person has free will and

[1:24:05] their own conditions, so

[1:24:07] >> Exactly.

[1:24:07] >> worshipping the Bible for that alone is

[1:24:10] an issue.

[1:24:11] >> Right. Even if it was infallible, you

[1:24:13] still can't get past the fact that your

[1:24:15] brain has to interpret it subjectively

[1:24:17] according to what you think words mean

[1:24:19] and all these things. And so again,

[1:24:20] you're back to appealing to your own

[1:24:22] subjective interpretation either way. So

[1:24:25] it's just a claim that you can never

[1:24:26] prove and you can only beg the question.

[1:24:29] And so we think that hey, why would I

[1:24:31] want to base my entire salvation on a

[1:24:33] question-begging claim that can't be

[1:24:35] proven?

[1:24:36] Surely God would not create such a

[1:24:38] universe, you know?

[1:24:40] >> Mm.

[1:24:41] Yeah, well it it's like um

[1:24:44] using your fallible brain or your

[1:24:46] fallible intellect to measure whether a

[1:24:50] text is infallible,

[1:24:52] it's not possible because the instrument

[1:24:54] the instrument you're you're using to

[1:24:57] read it

[1:24:58] >> [laughter]

[1:24:58] >> can't even measure that. It It's like if

[1:25:01] you were trying if you had something

[1:25:02] where you had to

[1:25:04] um measure the length of something

[1:25:09] to the nearest millimeter,

[1:25:11] but you only had a tape measure that

[1:25:12] measured in kilometers, like you you

[1:25:15] can't get down that that precise. And so

[1:25:18] you can not do that

[1:25:19] with um

[1:25:21] you you could like we're not even

[1:25:22] capable of determining if a text is

[1:25:25] infallible.

[1:25:26] >> We're broken, dirty sinners and we've

[1:25:29] cracked the code. The book is perfect.

[1:25:31] >> [laughter]

[1:25:32] >> Totally. It's like when a Christian uh

[1:25:35] you know hits me with uh also you you

[1:25:37] know deny the word of God, you better

[1:25:39] you better believe the word of God.

[1:25:41] It's like okay, so you're telling me

[1:25:42] that you know the Bible is infallible.

[1:25:45] It's written by God, every word written

[1:25:46] by God. You know that that's true, and

[1:25:49] you are telling me, hey, you better

[1:25:50] believe this too, or you're going to

[1:25:52] hell.

[1:25:53] It's like so now you're stacking another

[1:25:55] problem on top of these problems where I

[1:25:57] have to trust that you would even know

[1:26:00] an infallible book if it slapped you in

[1:26:01] the face.

[1:26:03] I don't trust you that much. I don't

[1:26:04] even know you. You're some guy on the

[1:26:05] internet, and I'm supposed to believe

[1:26:07] that you know an infallible text exists.

[1:26:09] It's like guess what? Mormons say that

[1:26:10] about the Book of Mormon, Muslims say

[1:26:12] that about the Quran. So if you just

[1:26:14] proof text Bible verses at me, you're a

[1:26:16] Muslim appealing to the Quran or a

[1:26:18] Mormon appealing to the Book of Mormon,

[1:26:20] as far as I'm concerned. You have to do

[1:26:22] more than just that because that's what

[1:26:23] you accuse them of doing, and then you

[1:26:26] turn around and do it to me, right? We

[1:26:27] have to have better standards for this

[1:26:29] of how we arrive at truth. What is our

[1:26:32] epistemology of how we arrive at truth?

[1:26:34] And I think Jesus gave us the best

[1:26:36] epistemic standard, which is you you

[1:26:38] just know a tree by its fruit and by no

[1:26:41] other way because the only other way is

[1:26:43] believe what this person is saying and

[1:26:45] and espousing with their mouth, right?

[1:26:48] You cannot hang your hat on what anybody

[1:26:50] says alone, right? Even if it's even if

[1:26:53] it echoes the truth. It's like we know

[1:26:55] that the enemy loves to use truth and

[1:26:58] sprinkle in a little bit of deception

[1:27:00] and that that's how the devil wins

[1:27:02] people over is I'm going to give you 90%

[1:27:04] truth, 90% light, and then I'll just

[1:27:07] sprinkle in a little bit of darkness

[1:27:09] into it, a little bit of evil. And

[1:27:11] because you're distracted and, you know,

[1:27:13] shiny object syndroming over the light,

[1:27:16] you won't see the evil I've woven into

[1:27:17] it, and then I've captured you into my

[1:27:19] thought system. So it's very dangerous

[1:27:21] to just go around espousing doctrines.

[1:27:24] We have to have a better standard than

[1:27:26] that, and there is no better standard by

[1:27:28] which to judge truth than how someone is

[1:27:30] living. The truth is based in what is uh

[1:27:33] good for all beings equally, right? What

[1:27:36] is based in love, what is based in

[1:27:37] righteousness, what does no harm, and

[1:27:40] what loves its neighbor as itself. And

[1:27:42] you can't miss that if that's your

[1:27:44] standard, right?

[1:27:45] Anything we want to pivot to before we

[1:27:47] close?

[1:27:48] >> Well, uh

[1:27:49] >> David, what are some other

[1:27:51] when when you have these conversations

[1:27:53] about Paul, what are the other go-tos

[1:27:55] that

[1:27:57] um Christians might throw at you?

[1:27:59] >> Right hand of fellowship.

[1:28:00] >> [clears throat]

[1:28:00] >> Yeah.

[1:28:01] >> [laughter]

[1:28:02] >> Uh well, for one of the one of the ones

[1:28:04] I hear all the time is when you when you

[1:28:07] use the Bible

[1:28:08] to show that Paul

[1:28:11] is

[1:28:12] not on the up and up,

[1:28:15] then they accuse you of

[1:28:17] rejecting the Bible.

[1:28:20] But it's it's like

[1:28:21] how does that make sense? Because I'm

[1:28:23] using the Bible to prove my point.

[1:28:26] So how is that rejecting the Bible?

[1:28:29] >> Yeah.

[1:28:29] >> Um

[1:28:30] you know, and I think Aaron said this

[1:28:32] before that when people call the Bible

[1:28:34] infallible, what they really mean is

[1:28:36] that

[1:28:37] their interpretation of the Bible is

[1:28:38] infallible.

[1:28:41] >> It's ego. Again.

[1:28:42] >> literally leaning on their own

[1:28:44] understanding, which is

[1:28:46] one one of the lines they love to throw

[1:28:47] around not to do.

[1:28:49] >> Yeah.

[1:28:50] Yeah, and then the the whole right hand

[1:28:52] of fellowship thing just to close on

[1:28:54] this, um it it goes back to the same

[1:28:56] kind of argument of like, well, Peter

[1:28:58] calls Paul a brother, therefore he

[1:28:59] agrees with everything he taught.

[1:29:02] It's like, okay, so so Paul says, which

[1:29:04] is already problematic,

[1:29:06] Paul says is extremely problematic

[1:29:08] because he admits to lying and

[1:29:09] shape-shifting to fit whatever crew he's

[1:29:12] around and all these things.

[1:29:14] Uh if by my lie, you know, we we just

[1:29:15] can't trust Paul on anything because in

[1:29:18] my humble personal opinion, Paul has

[1:29:21] every earmark of a classic overt

[1:29:23] narcissist. He can't stop talking about

[1:29:25] himself. He can't stop boasting about

[1:29:27] himself. He he appeals to himself

[1:29:29] constantly for his own

[1:29:32] beliefs and claims.

[1:29:34] My gospel, my gospel. He he inflates

[1:29:36] himself above the apostles, those

[1:29:37] so-called pillars, whatever they were,

[1:29:39] whatever they used to be makes no

[1:29:41] difference to me. Like he downplays the

[1:29:43] entire

[1:29:44] Davidic line and, you know, physical

[1:29:47] human Jesus tradition and says we no

[1:29:49] longer know Jesus after the flesh, only

[1:29:52] after the spirit. And luckily, Jesus's

[1:29:54] spirit is appearing to me in private

[1:29:56] visions. So, we already have major

[1:29:58] problems if you're just saying, well,

[1:29:59] Paul said that he met the disciples and

[1:30:01] they gave him the right hand of

[1:30:01] fellowship. Maybe that's a total lie.

[1:30:03] Maybe they they greeted him and were

[1:30:05] kind of like, oh, here's that serial

[1:30:06] killer and they just like didn't want

[1:30:07] him to lash out at them. We don't know.

[1:30:10] But you're going back to the

[1:30:11] presupposition that because they shook

[1:30:13] his hand and greeted him warmly, which

[1:30:16] as you showed, David, in your slides,

[1:30:18] was the Nazarene way. This is what Jesus

[1:30:20] taught, love your neighbor as yourself.

[1:30:22] Even if they disagreed

[1:30:23] >> enemies.

[1:30:24] >> Love your enemies, right? Um even if

[1:30:26] they did disagree with Paul's gospel,

[1:30:28] they would have still greeted him with

[1:30:29] the right hand of fellowship. And

[1:30:31] probably all the more so because they

[1:30:33] probably wanted to convert him to the

[1:30:35] Nazarene way and say, hey man, can you

[1:30:36] get away from this Platonism and like

[1:30:38] making Jesus into a demigod and stuff?

[1:30:40] Come back to follow the real teachings

[1:30:42] as Pete, the real Peter says in the

[1:30:44] homilies, right? We hey hey buddy, we

[1:30:46] walked and talked with the real physical

[1:30:48] Jesus. So, we're going to have a hard

[1:30:49] time with your private Jesus and all

[1:30:51] these weird claims.

[1:30:52] But

[1:30:54] a a third argument there is

[1:30:57] this is according to Paul, this is his

[1:30:58] second visit to Jerusalem. I think he

[1:31:01] says when he gets his private

[1:31:03] revelation, correct me if I'm wrong,

[1:31:05] David, he says it was 14 years before he

[1:31:08] goes to Jerusalem, right? He says, I did

[1:31:09] not immediately go up to consult the

[1:31:11] apostles who were before me. I went away

[1:31:13] to Arabia for 14 years or something.

[1:31:17] Then he goes and meets Peter and James

[1:31:19] only, not the rest of the apostles. And

[1:31:21] then I think it's three more years,

[1:31:23] right, before he goes back again?

[1:31:26] >> Um yeah, I think you're right.

[1:31:29] >> Something like that.

[1:31:30] >> Yeah.

[1:31:31] >> Basically, it's his second time in

[1:31:32] Jerusalem meeting the apostles and he

[1:31:34] says, and they greeted me with the right

[1:31:35] hand of fellowship and he says, I you

[1:31:36] know, I sort of laid my gospel before

[1:31:38] them to make sure that I wasn't running

[1:31:39] in vain. It's like, okay, but to the

[1:31:42] Jews he becomes as a Jew.

[1:31:44] And so he probably was laying forward to

[1:31:46] them a very Jewish type of version of

[1:31:48] his gospel and maybe avoiding the

[1:31:51] Platonic elements, right? We just don't

[1:31:52] know if Paul gave him the

[1:31:54] accurate depiction,

[1:31:56] but the bottom line for me is,

[1:31:58] we know that Paul was probably accepted

[1:32:01] by the Nazarenes initially because

[1:32:02] that's the Jesus way, forgive your

[1:32:04] enemies, and he was the chief, you know,

[1:32:06] serial killer of Nazarenes before that.

[1:32:09] So they were probably like, hey, thank

[1:32:10] God this guy got converted to stop

[1:32:12] killing us and maybe he wants to join

[1:32:14] our movement. Let's be friendly to this

[1:32:15] guy and welcome him in.

[1:32:17] And so we know that that was the initial

[1:32:19] probably attitude of the disciples.

[1:32:22] But we also know without any shadow of a

[1:32:24] doubt, based on even things in the New

[1:32:27] Testament like the Epistle of James,

[1:32:28] that they eventually did have major

[1:32:30] problems and disagreements with what

[1:32:33] Paul was teaching that happened at some

[1:32:36] point, right? So just because they

[1:32:38] greeted him with the right hand of

[1:32:39] fellowship by no means whatsoever

[1:32:42] implies that they agreed with everything

[1:32:44] he already was teaching and for all of

[1:32:45] time what he would teach.

[1:32:47] In yeah, in perpetuity. I shook your

[1:32:49] hand. I agree with anything that comes

[1:32:50] out of your mouth forever. It's just a

[1:32:52] ludicrous argument.

[1:32:54] >> Yeah, and I mean it's it's interesting

[1:32:56] just the positioning of that whole

[1:32:58] argument because

[1:33:00] the ending of Galatians 1 Paul is making

[1:33:04] a point,

[1:33:05] I didn't learn anything at all from the

[1:33:06] apostles. That that's why he went

[1:33:08] through that whole timeline. Um by the

[1:33:10] way, you have the numbers right. You

[1:33:12] just had them swapped. He was three

[1:33:14] years in Arabia and then after 14 went

[1:33:16] to Jerusalem. But yeah, it was still the

[1:33:17] same time frame, 17 years.

[1:33:19] >> Got it.

[1:33:20] >> Um

[1:33:21] so

[1:33:22] so then he he tells you that they gave

[1:33:24] me the right hand of fellowship. Now he

[1:33:26] also says that it was in a private

[1:33:28] meeting.

[1:33:29] They they gave the right hand of

[1:33:30] fellowship in private, so no one else

[1:33:32] saw it.

[1:33:34] And then immediately after that in the

[1:33:36] same chapter where he's saying that he

[1:33:38] gave that they gave him the right hand

[1:33:40] of fellowship, then you have Paul

[1:33:43] turning on Peter.

[1:33:44] >> Yeah.

[1:33:45] >> And it's like, well, if that's the way

[1:33:46] you treat somebody who gives you the

[1:33:47] right hand of fellowship, what does that

[1:33:49] say about you first of all? But then if

[1:33:52] you look at the roster of the the

[1:33:54] argument, you had Paul on one side. On

[1:33:57] the other side you had Peter.

[1:33:59] You have the delegation from James. You

[1:34:02] had all the Antioch Jews. And you even

[1:34:05] had Barnabas against Paul.

[1:34:08] >> Ouch.

[1:34:09] >> And

[1:34:09] >> Doesn't sound like a lot of fellowship

[1:34:11] there.

[1:34:11] >> [laughter]

[1:34:12] >> Yeah. It doesn't sound like he still had

[1:34:14] that right hand of fellowship.

[1:34:16] But it's it's kind of like um like you

[1:34:19] mentioned K Podge earlier. Like that she

[1:34:21] made this video and kind of came out

[1:34:23] against

[1:34:24] or came out as questioning Paul. I won't

[1:34:26] say against, but

[1:34:27] >> Mhm.

[1:34:28] >> um there was a lot of people in her

[1:34:29] comments

[1:34:31] on that first video that she made that

[1:34:33] were saying

[1:34:34] I used to like you. I used to listen to

[1:34:36] you, but now I'm going to

[1:34:38] stop or you you've gone too far or

[1:34:40] something. You know, they were they were

[1:34:41] basically saying I used to like you, but

[1:34:43] now you're speaking the truth about

[1:34:45] Paul, so I'm going to have to

[1:34:47] break fellowship with you.

[1:34:49] Well Well, wait a minute. You already

[1:34:51] gave her the right hand of fellowship.

[1:34:53] [laughter]

[1:34:54] You're

[1:34:54] >> Got you.

[1:34:54] >> You're locked in.

[1:34:55] >> Yeah.

[1:34:56] >> It's like a marriage.

[1:34:56] >> It doesn't matter what she says. Like

[1:34:58] you're locked in, dude. Sorry. You can't

[1:35:01] uh you can't back out now. I mean,

[1:35:03] that's what they're doing to Peter.

[1:35:04] >> Wow.

[1:35:05] >> And the thing is the whole right hand of

[1:35:07] fellowship thing, it is based solely

[1:35:09] upon Paul's word. No one else.

[1:35:12] >> Exactly.

[1:35:13] >> I mean, even in Acts 14 and 15 Luke

[1:35:17] doesn't recount that that they went into

[1:35:19] a private room and

[1:35:21] gave Paul the right hand of fellowship.

[1:35:23] All All that he says in Acts 15 is that

[1:35:26] they listened to what he had to say.

[1:35:28] >> Right. And it does say in like Acts I

[1:35:30] want to say it's like 9:24

[1:35:32] um

[1:35:33] it says when Paul came to Jerusalem, all

[1:35:36] the disciples avoided him and would not

[1:35:39] um like fellowship with him because they

[1:35:40] were afraid of him. So he that that

[1:35:44] would back up what we were just saying

[1:35:45] of like

[1:35:47] Paul shows up. He's like, hey, I'm no

[1:35:48] longer a serial killer. Can I join your

[1:35:50] movement? And they're like, hey, Paul

[1:35:53] and you know, they were probably still

[1:35:54] afraid of the guy and wanting to have a

[1:35:56] good interaction with him because hey,

[1:35:58] we don't know this guy. If if we have a

[1:35:59] bad interaction with this guy, he might

[1:36:01] flip back and go back to Caiaphas and

[1:36:03] start killing us again. So there's

[1:36:05] clearly there's a lot of tension and

[1:36:07] fear there. So how can you knowing that,

[1:36:09] knowing Acts literally says that that

[1:36:12] they were like, dude, we agree with

[1:36:13] everything you say and ever will say.

[1:36:15] You're welcome to our movement.

[1:36:17] It's totally crazy.

[1:36:19] So I guess we'll go ahead and close up

[1:36:21] shop there. I think we've done our due

[1:36:22] diligence on 2 Peter 3:16 for today. Um

[1:36:26] but I just want to say really quick

[1:36:27] before we close that

[1:36:28] if you guys are a fan of this podcast,

[1:36:30] I'm telling you, if you're not watching

[1:36:32] David the Nazarene's channel, you are

[1:36:33] missing out on the best Jesus Way

[1:36:37] Nazarene content out there.

[1:36:39] David, especially lately, but since day

[1:36:41] one I've been watching this guy's

[1:36:43] channel. He just puts out banger after

[1:36:45] banger on these topics and does really

[1:36:48] rigorous research as you've seen today

[1:36:50] unpacking these things with not just the

[1:36:53] kind of scholarly finesse we like, but

[1:36:55] uh something else we really appreciate

[1:36:57] about you, David, and talk about a lot

[1:36:59] um is how much we appreciate the way you

[1:37:02] form your arguments just with so much

[1:37:04] coherence and simplicity and no

[1:37:06] nonsense, straight to the point. A lot

[1:37:09] of good dry a lot of good dry humor

[1:37:10] [laughter] we like as well. But yeah, I

[1:37:12] just want to give you some more flowers

[1:37:13] before we close, man, cuz you're doing

[1:37:15] amazing work. We've both learned a lot

[1:37:17] from your channel and we highly

[1:37:18] recommend every fan of this podcast, you

[1:37:20] got to follow David the Nazarene. We'll

[1:37:22] put his uh links in the description

[1:37:24] below.

[1:37:25] >> Well, thank you very much. It's uh it's

[1:37:28] always a pleasure to be on here and uh

[1:37:29] we always have some great discussion. So

[1:37:32] really uh

[1:37:33] appreciate that and

[1:37:35] can't wait till next time.

[1:37:36] >> Yes.

[1:37:38] >> Likewise, brother.

[1:37:40] >> Yeah. Yeah. Our our first conversation

[1:37:43] kind of took the internet by storm and I

[1:37:44] think that was

[1:37:46] honestly one of the catalysts for

[1:37:48] getting this conversation into the in

[1:37:50] mainstream. So hopefully this one and

[1:37:52] our future ones will and I echo

[1:37:54] everything Aaron said about David's

[1:37:56] channel. You've really been a a

[1:37:58] trailblazer for the whole Nazarene

[1:38:00] movement and we're very grateful.

[1:38:02] >> Yep.

[1:38:03] Yep, absolutely.

[1:38:04] So, David, thank you again for joining

[1:38:06] us today. James, thank you as always for

[1:38:09] being our co-host today. [music] And

[1:38:10] thank you guys for watching this episode

[1:38:12] of the Jesus Way podcast. It's so good

[1:38:14] to be back. We got so many epic episode

[1:38:16] and and topic ideas coming your way, so

[1:38:18] stay tuned for that.

[1:38:20] But until next time,

[1:38:21] you know what it [music] is. Get out

[1:38:23] into your world and live this message by

[1:38:25] loving God with all your heart and

[1:38:27] loving your neighbor as yourself. And

[1:38:29] we'll see you back here for the next

[1:38:30] episode of the Jesus Way podcast. Peace

[1:38:33] and love, everyone.

[1:38:35] >> [music]

[1:38:48] [music]

AA
Artist
Aaron Abke

Watch more from Aaron Abke on YouTube.

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2-peter-3-16Pauline-epistlesPseudepigraphaBiblical-greekSecond-century-dating

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The video argues that it does not, at least not in the sweeping way apologists present it. Abke and David the Nazarene read the Greek closely and contend that even on its own terms the verse is praise with a qualification rather than a clean endorsement.
The video's description states that no secular scholar believes Peter wrote the book, and the conversation dates the letter to well into the second century. Whether a reader accepts that consensus, the authorship question is the central issue of the episode.
A letter that treats Paul's writings as an already-collected, authoritative body would be difficult to place in the lifetime of Peter. The episode places the writing at roughly the 140s, and the dating case rests on that literary evidence.
Pseudepigrapha refers to writings attributed to a figure who did not actually write them, a practice accepted in the ancient world. The video frames 2 Peter within that question, though readers should weigh the full evidence rather than the title alone.
He is the guest on Jesus Way Podcast 067, who breaks down the Greek of 2 Peter 3:16 with host Aaron Abke. He has his own YouTube channel under the handle @DavidTheNazarene.
Marcion, a second-century teacher, built a canon centered on Paul's letters and rejected the Hebrew Scriptures. The episode raises him to show how fights over which texts and apostolic names counted were active in that period.

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Inspire

Power vs. Force and the Law of Balance in Blackout Warnings

Aaron Abke's 43-minute video argues that governments warning of blackouts follow a predictable script, and that the script depends on consen…

8 min read
Chakras as Circuits: Why Energy Gets Misdirected, Not Blocked
Inspire

Chakras as Circuits: Why Energy Gets Misdirected, Not Blocked

Chakras as electrical circuits: lower centers as wiring, upper centers as the load, and entropy as energy that leaks sideways. A close read …

9 min read
Light in Shining Armour: A Goddess Myth Set to Mantra Pop
Inspire

Light in Shining Armour: A Goddess Myth Set to Mantra Pop

A four-and-a-half-minute video turns an ancient goddess story into a sung prayer about slowing down, guarding your energy, and remembering y…

10 min read
Offload the Day Tonight: A Sleep Hypnosis for a Full Mind
Inspire

Offload the Day Tonight: A Sleep Hypnosis for a Full Mind

A close look at a two-hour bedtime hypnosis that helps a busy mind set the day down, through weight shifts, body release, a ten-to-zero coun…

9 min read

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