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Inspiration

Arguing Is a ConstructiveSkill: Building Your Blueprint

Big Think
Big Think
Sep 18, 2026
読了 約11分

Our public conversations are in crisis. Every disagreement becomes a source of division and pain. But the deeper problem is quieter: millions of people have withdrawn entirely, convinced that disagreement is pointless, painful, and not worth their time. What we've lost, argues two-time world debate champion Bo Seo, is the belief that arguing can be constructive—and worse, we've stopped treating it as a skill worth learning. "We no longer view argument as a skill and as something to be worked at," Seo explains. "Rather, we see it as something we jump into out of instinct or defensiveness."

This is not a small problem for democracy. Good arguments, Seo contends, are what democracies aspire to be at their best: conversations between people who disagree, sometimes over irreconcilable things, who work to find areas of agreement and reach better solutions together. The tradition goes back to ancient Athens, where the ability to persuade and debate was considered a requirement of citizenship. It lived on in the coffee houses of London, where ordinary citizens would gather and debate as though they were parliamentarians. The American founders understood this too, establishing debate clubs in colleges and viewing the spirit of debate as central to their project. Yet somewhere along the way, we've allowed those skills to atrophy.

読む · 9セクション

The Farmer-Malcolm X Debates: Three Lessons in Public Disagreement

One of the most instructive examples of serious, high-stakes public debate comes from the series of encounters between civil rights leader James Farmer and Malcolm X. These men disagreed fundamentally—on the nature of racial liberation, on the appropriate response to racism, on what Black freedom should look like. Yet they were "not shy about voicing their disagreements in really candid, strong, forthroated ways in the view of the public," knowing the other would respond respectfully and that through candid conversation they might "get somewhere they couldn't on their own."

Seo extracts three lessons from these debates. The first is training. Farmer studied under Melvin Tolson, one of the greatest debate coaches ever (later immortalized by Denzel Washington in the film The Great Debaters). Malcolm X found his voice through a debate program in prison, where inmates could debate against local colleges and schools. Both men arrived at their public confrontations with years of practice behind them. "In order for us to be able to host the kinds of public debates again that enlarges our understanding of what's possible, we have to start training and we have to start training our young people," Seo says.

The second lesson is format. In the Farmer-Malcolm X debates, speakers were given substantial time to present their arguments—not the one-to-two-minute segments punctuated by interruptions we've grown accustomed to. They had long stretches to develop their thoughts, knowing that once they finished, the other person would speak, and they would get another turn. This structure forced speakers to "sit back and listen knowing that their chance was not now, it was coming later." The architecture of the conversation itself shaped the quality of what happened inside it.

The third lesson is relationship. Behind the scenes of these famous public encounters, Farmer and Malcolm X were building a relationship beyond the disagreement itself. They visited each other's homes, introduced their families, spent time together outside the debate. This relational foundation made them freer within the formal debate space. "You can be more candid there. You can be fullthroated," Seo explains. "You can come at the other person honestly, but you know there's a relationship that you can fall back on."

How a Language Barrier Became a Teacher's Gift

Seo's own path to debating emerged from vulnerability. In the third grade, he moved from South Korea to Australia without speaking English. "The hardest part of crossing language lines of cultural lines was adjusting to real life conversation," he recalls, where people change subjects mid-sentence, where facial expressions don't match words, where the unpredictability compounds in disagreements when passions run high. His response was to become agreeable, to keep his thoughts to himself.

Then came a turning point: his fifth-grade teacher offered one promise—"in debate when one person speaks no one else does." For a boy constantly interrupted and spun out of conversation, this sounded like salvation. He joined the debate team. What he discovered, growing up on the margins, visibly out of place, struggling with language, was that he had learned to listen deeply. He had learned to read a room, to take its temperature before speaking. What began as a liability became equipment.

This reframing is crucial to Seo's entire philosophy of argument. Listening, he argues, is not passive. It's an active skill of "considering what the opposition could have said to further their argument, to improve their argument." It means stepping into the shoes of someone who disagrees with you, understanding not just their words but the logic beneath them. Through his childhood of displacement—moving countries, navigating cultural difference—Seo developed what he calls the ability to "see all the different sides of a place." This gift of perspective, born from outsider status, became the foundation of his later mastery of debate.

The RISA Framework: Picking Battles Worth Having

Not every disagreement deserves to become an argument. One of Seo's most practical contributions is the RISA framework, a four-question test for whether a fight is worth having. The letters stand for a framework Seo presents as a way to assess whether you should enter into a formal disagreement at all.

The first principle is relationship. Before engaging in serious argument, ask: Is there a relationship here beyond the disagreement itself? Without this foundation, arguments become brittle. The second is understanding whether the disagreement is real rather than an imagined slight or a misunderstanding. Many conflicts we assume are fundamental are actually based on miscommunication. The third considers whether you have alignment on basic values—enough common ground that productive conversation is possible. And the fourth is about being selective: you need to choose which disagreements are worth your energy and focus.

The RISA framework prevents what Seo calls the slide into "unruly conflict"—the kind where a single disagreement metastasizes into an all-encompassing dispute about every slight and grievance between two people. By starting with alignment and being intentional about which battles you fight, you create what Seo calls a "wriggle room" through which something like humility can enter.

Why We Fight Worst With the Ones We Love

There is something that happens in arguments with the people closest to us. The stakes feel higher. The hurt runs deeper. Seo identifies three dynamics that make intimate disagreements so fraught.

The first is defensiveness—a desire to shield oneself from hurt, to protect oneself from revealing too much vulnerability. The second is the urge to dominate, to prove oneself superior to the other person. And the third is that intimate partners and family members "know us best," so their criticism lands with particular force. They have ammunition.

"The combination of all of those things means that we end up focusing on the things that bring us apart rather than the things that we have in common," Seo says. Yet here is the paradox: you cannot genuinely connect with someone if your whole posture is defensive, protecting yourself from being known. And you cannot connect if your desire is to dominate or to prove your superiority. The very strategies we use to protect ourselves in intimate arguments are the ones that guarantee disconnection.

The Four Bad-Faith Arguers and How to Identify Them

Not everyone arguing in bad faith is the same. Seo identifies four archetypal bad-faith personas, each with a signature move.

First is the Dodger—someone who simply refuses to engage with your actual point. They change the subject, redirect the conversation, avoid taking a stance. Second is the Twister, whose signature move is to misrepresent what you've said. If you make a nuanced claim, the Twister will caricature it, collapsing complexity into something easier to attack.

Third is the Wrangler—someone whose aim is to turn the debate into a brawl, to dominate through aggression and bluster rather than argument. They use trash talk, name-calling, and performative confidence to shift the conversation from the substance of what's being discussed into a battle of wills. Seo notes that one way to handle wranglers is to "try and bring the conversation back into the mold of a debate," but there are instances where you may need to exit the conversation entirely. The power of bullies lies in their willingness to stay in the fight; the antidote is sometimes to refuse to play.

Fourth is the Liar—someone who makes false claims and doesn't care if they're exposed. But Seo notes that many lies are more sophisticated than outright falsehoods. They're selective truths presented without context, or claims about communities ("this group is lower than the population average") that replace nuance with a single statistic. The liar's move is to use rhetoric not to illuminate but to obscure.

Rhetoric as Tool and Weapon: The Schopenhauer Problem

Arthur Schopenhauer, the 19th-century philosopher, was fascinated by rhetoric—but not in a flattering way. He documented what he called the "dark arts of arguing," the rhetorical tricks people use to win arguments regardless of truth. This troubled him. Was this all rhetoric was—manipulation? Was this all people were capable of?

Seo doesn't dismiss Schopenhauer's concerns. Many abuses of rhetoric occur when the claims being made are designed to deceive rather than illuminate. But Seo argues for a different possibility: rhetoric can also be a tool for clarity and persuasion in service of truth. The key is transparency about how you came to believe what you believe. "By explaining how we went through that process ourselves," Seo says, "people may not always know very much about the kinds of broad-ranging contributions" that support your view, but they can follow your reasoning.

The question, then, is structural. If we want people to value honesty and clarity in conversation, we need to set up systems that reward those things. Anonymous commenting, algorithm-driven social media feeds that amplify outrage, debate formats that discourage nuance—these structures incentivize bad faith. Conversely, formats that require speakers to identify themselves, that reward depth over virality, that give space for genuine exchange, create conditions where better arguing can happen.

The Nixon-Khrushchev Standoff: Composure Under Pressure

One of the most instructive moments in Seo's teaching involves a Cold War standoff between Richard Nixon and Nikita Khrushchev—a moment when the stakes could not have been higher. In the face of genuine tension and the possibility of escalation, one of the two men made a move that defused the situation. The move was levity. A joke. Something that "reset and took some of the heat out of what would otherwise have been people talking past each other."

This is not trivial. Under extreme pressure, when egos are engaged and power is at stake, the ability to introduce a moment of lightness, to step back from the edge of confrontation, is a form of mastery. It requires what Seo calls a kind of breath—a pause before you respond, a moment of composure before you escalate. "In the last moments before a debater goes on stage, they know to take a breath," Seo observes. This isn't empathy in and of itself, but it "creates a wriggle room through which something like humility" can enter.

Why Silence Isn't Always the Answer

There is a temptation, in the face of bad-faith arguing, to simply withdraw. To stay silent. To refuse to engage. And sometimes, silence is the right move—particularly when engaging would give a bad-faith actor a platform they don't deserve, or when you're dealing with someone whose sole aim is to provoke and dominate.

But silence has a cost. It can signal assent. It can allow misinformation to stand unchallenged. And it can reinforce the sense that honest disagreement is impossible, that the public square is too toxic for good-faith people to enter. Seo's argument is not that we should argue about everything with everyone. Rather, it's that we should be intentional and skilled about when we do argue, who we argue with, and how we structure those arguments.

The alternative to bad faith is not silence. It's the restoration of argument as a craft, as a skill that can be trained and developed. It's the recognition that democracy itself depends on our ability to disagree well—to listen across difference, to hold firm to our convictions while remaining open to the possibility that we might be wrong, to seek common ground without erasing genuine disagreement.

Where to go from here

If you're interested in developing your own arguing skills, Seo's book Good Arguments provides both the philosophy and practical frameworks. The RISA test offers a way to evaluate which disagreements are worth your time and energy. Learning to identify bad-faith personas—the Dodger, Twister, Wrangler, and Liar—gives you tools to recognize manipulation and respond effectively. And perhaps most importantly, returning to the foundational lessons of the Farmer-Malcolm X debates reminds us that serious public disagreement, conducted with training, appropriate format, and underlying relationship, can be not divisive but genuinely enlarging—expanding what we thought was possible.

Transcript

[0:00] I'm Bo Seo. I'm a two-time world debate champion,  a former coach of the Australian National and  

[0:06] Harvard debate teams, and the author of Good  Arguments. Thank you for watching Big Think.  

[0:12] If you'd like to support our work, we encourage  you to join our members community. As a member,  

[0:16] you'll receive our quarterly print magazine, a  beautifully designed collection of the ideas and  

[0:21] interviews that matter most. Big Think  is for curious people who want to take  

[0:24] deep dives into big ideas. To support  the media you want to see in the world,  

[0:28] go to bigthink.com/membership.  And now back to the interview.

[0:37] Chapter one, how good arguments work.

[0:43] I felt the need to write good arguments because I  think our public conversations are in a state of  

[0:50] crisis and that is the more visible crisis that  we see where every disagreement out in media or  

[0:58] in the public square is a source of division and  pain. But it's also the hidden crisis of all the  

[1:05] people who are driven away from participating in  those conversations at all because they fear that  

[1:11] it's going to be pointless or it's going to be  painful and it's not going to be worth their time.  

[1:17] Good arguments is not only what democracies have  to do. It's what they on their best days aspire  

[1:25] to be, which is a conversation between people who  disagree sometimes over irreconcilable things to  

[1:32] find areas of agreement to spot points where they  need to work across their differences to reach  

[1:38] a better solution. One of the reasons why our  arguments are so divisive and painful and present  

[1:45] is that we've allowed the skills of disagreeing  well to atrophy. We no longer view argument as a  

[1:52] skill and as something to be worked at. Rather,  we see it as something we jump into out of  

[1:58] instinct or defensiveness. The bad arguments  that result in turn decrease our confidence  

[2:05] in what disagreements can do for us. And when  we lack that faith in what arguments can do,  

[2:14] we tend to approach them more defensively. We tend  to go into it with a more defensive posture. And  

[2:21] as a result, the lack of faith and lack of  confidence tends to be self-reinforcing. And  

[2:28] the resulting cascade means that the quality of  the conversation further degrades. The tradition  

[2:35] of good argument that I'm trying to advocate for  is very much rooted in history. It goes back all  

[2:42] the way to antiquity where in ancient Greece the  ability to make your point persuasively to engage  

[2:49] other citizens in discussion and debate was seen  as a kind of a requirement of citizenship. that  

[2:56] it's what it meant for us to govern ourselves.  And that developed through tea houses and pubs  

[3:04] and coffee houses in London where while  the debates of Parliament were going on,  

[3:09] citizens would gather and have the same debates  between themselves and to kind of play out as  

[3:17] though they were parliamentarians, as though they  were governing themselves. And that tradition kind  

[3:23] of carries forth in the United States with a  lot of the founding fathers starting debate  

[3:29] clubs and colleges viewing part of their role  as leaders and as founders of a new country as  

[3:36] instilling in the nation that spirit of debate.  And though that tradition has become harder and  

[3:44] harder to discern in our everyday lives, there  have been periods in the history of the US and  

[3:50] the history of democracies and the history of  the world where those debates were a feature  

[3:55] of people's day-to-day lives. So, one high-profile  debate that comes to mind is the series of debates  

[4:02] between the civil rights leader James Farmer and  Malcolm X, who had a different view of what racial  

[4:10] liberation looked like, what the appropriate  response to racism was. And these were a series of  

[4:17] disagreements between people who were ostensibly  on the same side, whose objectives were in some  

[4:23] sense allied, but they were not shy about voicing  their disagreements in really candid, strong,  

[4:32] forthroated ways in the view of the public.  knowing that the other side would respond  

[4:38] respectfully, that they would be candid about the  disagreements, and through that conversation that  

[4:44] they would be able to get somewhere they couldn't  on their own. There are three lessons that I take  

[4:50] away from the farmer Malcolm X debates.  The first is the importance of training.  

[4:56] farmer came up under one of the great debate  coaches who ever lived, Melvin Tolson,  

[5:01] who was memorialized actually by Denzel Washington  in that movie, The Great Debaters. And Malcolm X  

[5:09] too found his voice through a debate program in  prison that allowed inmates to debate against  

[5:16] local colleges and local schools and to find an  outlet for the kind of thinking that they had done  

[5:23] through engagement with texts and with each other.  So the first is in order for us to be able to host  

[5:29] the kinds of public debates again that enlarges  our understanding of what's possible, we have to  

[5:36] start training and we have to start training  our young people. We have to train ourselves  

[5:41] to be able to engage in those conversations.  The second is the importance of format. So in  

[5:49] the debates between these two men and some of them  were in colleges, some of them were on television,  

[5:55] some of them were in radio. It's striking how  long they were given to make their points. It  

[6:03] wasn't one to two minutes then interruptions.  Often they would be given quite a long stretch  

[6:09] of time to present their arguments with the  knowledge that once they had spoken the other  

[6:16] person would speak and they would get another  turn. So they could and they were sometimes  

[6:20] forced to sit back and listen knowing that  their chance was not now, it was coming later.  

[6:27] So there's an importance of the kind of format  in which we pit two people against one another.  

[6:34] The third thing that you see in those debates is  the importance of having a relationship with the  

[6:41] person that you're disagreeing with that's greater  than just the disagreement itself. So behind the  

[6:47] scenes of these big public encounters, Farmer  and Malcolm X were getting to know one another.  

[6:54] They were going to one another's houses. And  so by being in a relationship with the other  

[7:01] person that's more than just the differences, by  introducing the family to one another, by seeing  

[7:07] the other areas of life, by doing other things  together, you can often enlarge the possibility  

[7:13] of what you do within the debate. You can be  more candid there. You can be fullthroated. can  

[7:21] come at the other person honestly, but you know  there's a relationship that you can fall back on.  

[7:28] So I started debating because I moved in the third  grade from South Korea to Australia without really  

[7:35] speaking English. And I quickly found the hardest  part of crossing language lines of cultural lines  

[7:42] was adjusting to real life conversation where  people can mid-sentence pivot into talking about  

[7:50] something else where what their faces say and what  their gestures say don't always match the words  

[7:56] that are coming out of their mouths. And I found  that all of those difficulties tended to compound  

[8:02] in disagreements where passions tend to run and  people tend to be more disruptive, to interrupt,  

[8:10] to speed up and slow down at unexpected moments.  And in response to all that, I resolved to be  

[8:18] very agreeable in the way in which I presented at  school and to keep my thoughts to myself. And the  

[8:26] thing that changed that and shook me out of that  was I joined the debate team off the strength of  

[8:33] one promise from my fifth grade elementary school  teacher which was that in debate when one person  

[8:41] speaks no one else does. And to someone who had  been used to being interrupted and spun out of  

[8:49] conversation that sounded to me like a kind of  salvation. One of the things that I learned as  

[8:57] a person really on the margins who didn't really  speak the language, was visibly out of place on  

[9:05] the playground and in the and in the classroom was  I learned to listen. I learned to read a room. I  

[9:13] learned to take the temperature of a place before  I ever raised my voice. And I learned to do that  

[9:20] not to get hurt first of all, but also because it  was the only way in which I would ever be heard.  

[9:27] And it so happens that many of the most successful  debaters tend to come from these slightly marginal  

[9:36] backgrounds to have the perspective of someone on  the periphery. And I think the reason for that is  

[9:42] because though it's easier to focus on the person  at the front of the room delivering a debate  

[9:48] speech, much of the action of debate and much of  the strategy of getting ahead in debate involves  

[9:57] listening really intently not only to what one's  opponent is saying, but also to listen from the  

[10:04] perspective of an audience so that you might be  able to anticipate what they might need to hear  

[10:09] next. And so what started for me as a kind of  a liability or uh a disadvantage that I had  

[10:17] to overcome ended up being a tremendous strength  because I think one of the great lessons of debate  

[10:24] is in order to be heard, you have to first listen.  Debates are only as good as the information and  

[10:34] the knowledge and the skills that debaters  bring to it. And one of the more concerning  

[10:40] things that we see at the moment is people's  information diets not being sufficiently varied,  

[10:47] not being sufficiently rich to sustain the kinds  of conversations that we want to have. The first  

[10:53] thing is we cannot allow the debates that we see  on cable television to be a kind of a replacement  

[11:02] for the disagreements that we should be having  in our day-to-day lives. So our political leaders  

[11:08] or our favorite media personalities can't be like  avatars to whom we outsource the work of thinking  

[11:17] for ourselves and having these conversations for  ourselves. So the first is viewing media not as  

[11:23] a substitution but as a source of equipment and  knowledge that we can then transfer into the kinds  

[11:30] of conversations that we have. The second thing is  having a a variety and a diversity of sources that  

[11:39] we turn to to get our information. And one of the  impulses that partisan media, siloed information  

[11:50] sources feed off is our desire to be validated,  to have news reflect back to us what we already  

[11:59] believe to be true about the world. And just  the way that debate encourages us to seek out  

[12:06] differences and to see them as productive and  revoly and mindexpanding. So we should view the  

[12:14] different signals and information and perspectives  we take in because that richer diet allows us to  

[12:21] see more perspectives and to challenge our  own thinking more consistently. For me,  

[12:26] my love of debate and desire to see things from  different perspectives to if not always agree then  

[12:36] at least to understand the perspective from which  others are coming from is inextricably tied to a  

[12:43] life that I've led of always moving countries. I  had to move from South Korea to Australia as an  

[12:49] 8-year-old. I grew up in Australia, then moved to  the US for college. I got a post-graduate degree  

[12:57] in China and and then came back through Australia  back to the US. And through each of these moves,  

[13:06] there was a lot of work of translation and work  of adaptation and having to figure out where the  

[13:17] surroundings were at before I could make a home in  them. And a lot of that was information gathering,  

[13:25] whether that be reading the news, but often in  conversation with people in those locations,  

[13:32] in those neighborhoods to figure out that most  basic and difficult question, which is where am  

[13:37] I? And to do that, you needed all the help that  you could get. And you needed to rely on all the  

[13:45] information sources you could get. And one of  the things that I learned to do, I think, is  

[13:49] to resist easy answers to that question. Um, and  to try and piece together from a kind of a mosaic  

[13:56] um all the different sides of a place. We're used  to thinking about listening as an essentially  

[14:04] passive act where we sit back in our chairs and  take it all in. Debaters know that it's a much  

[14:12] more active process than that. So when a speaker  is speaking, a debater has paper and pen ready  

[14:19] and they're doing at least three things. The first  is they're trying to transcribe in as accurate a  

[14:26] detail what the other person is saying. And often  when you separate out your own perceptions of what  

[14:34] the speech is versus the reality of it, you'll  find that it's sometimes different. The next thing  

[14:39] that you're trying to do is try and reconstruct  the argument that's being presented in its most  

[14:47] basic form to say what is the real thrust of this  argument and can I put it down on the page and  

[14:55] organize it on the page in a way the other side  would recognize as faithful to their argument. The  

[15:02] next thing that you're doing is you're sometimes  building up that argument into even a stronger  

[15:07] version. So what else could the opposition have  said to further their argument to improve their  

[15:13] argument? And through this process, you're not  only listening to the words that's coming out,  

[15:19] you're trying to reconstruct the deeper meaning  behind it, you're trying to strengthen their  

[15:24] argument, all for the purpose of being able to  engage with their case and their perspective  

[15:30] more fully. There are two lessons that we can take  away from how debaters listen and and to try and  

[15:37] apply it in our own lives. The first is it is in  your best interest to understand the opposition's  

[15:45] argument as they would understand it. And what  that means is it's not in your best interest to  

[15:51] twist their meaning or to take it at its worst  or to capture only a fraction of it because they  

[15:58] won't feel as though they had been listened to  and heard and ultimately responded to. And unless  

[16:04] that moment, that click and that moment of contact  happens, it's not a real disagreement. It's not a  

[16:11] real debate. It's a kind of a quarrel or people  talking across one another. The second thing is  

[16:18] it's also in your best interest to respond to the  strongest version of the other side and sometimes  

[16:24] to build up the other side's case so that it's  even better than where they have it now. And the  

[16:30] reason for that is, you know, after you finish  speaking, the opposition might have a light bulb  

[16:36] and come up with a better case or someone on their  side might say, "You've responded to the weak  

[16:42] version of this argument, but here's something  better." So the further you can take it and the  

[16:47] stronger the version of the other side you can  respond to, the further ahead you pull, the more  

[16:53] you challenge the other side to go even further  and the better the conversation becomes. Arguments  

[17:00] are easy to start and hard to end because  difference is the natural state of things. There  

[17:08] are any number of differences between two people  and when one of those issues comes to the four,  

[17:15] you can have a disagreement. But unless you're  selective about the kinds of arguments that you  

[17:22] pick and unless you're careful to say we're having  this disagreement at this moment and not all the  

[17:28] other disagreements we could be having, all of  the differences between two people can start  

[17:35] flooding in and the argument becomes this unruly  mass of of conflict between two people where any  

[17:44] of the potential sources of conflict can come to  the four and you're not making progress on any  

[17:50] given one. As a competitive debater, you become a  bit enthusiastic about disagreeing and you tend to  

[18:00] want to take on any claim that you might disagree  with and and and and try to provide the best  

[18:06] argument against it. And one of the frameworks  that I developed in order to be a little bit  

[18:13] more judicious to pick my fights more wisely is  called the RISA framework. And that is before  

[18:21] launching into a disagreement or challenging  a claim to ask four things. First, whether  

[18:27] the disagreement is in fact real as opposed  to an imagined slight or a misunderstanding.  

[18:34] The second is to ask whether it's important enough  to you to justify the disagreement. The third is  

[18:41] to ask whether the question or the topic of  disagreement is specific enough in order for  

[18:46] you to make some progress. And the fourth is to  ask whether you and the other person engaged in  

[18:52] the disagreement are aligned in your objectives  for wanting to partake in that conversation.  

[18:58] And by checking off on these four lists, you can't  guarantee that a conversation is going to go well,  

[19:06] but you may be able to give it the best possible  chance of doing so. One of the limitations of the  

[19:12] RISA framework that I worry about is that it is  increasingly difficult to find the right kind  

[19:19] of alignment in people's interest for wanting to  engage in a disagreement. So if you have two sides  

[19:25] that simply want to hurt one another's feelings by  having an argument, that's some kind of alignment,  

[19:32] but not the right kind that leads to productive  conversations. And the place where the RISA  

[19:38] framework can go wrong is in a world where  everybody wants to engage in disagreements for bad  

[19:45] reasons. And to combat that, I think we need to  restore confidence and faith in what disagreements  

[19:53] can be and to highlight its potential as  a source for good as well as a source for  

[19:58] ill. So one place where you might be able to apply  the RISA framework is an event that is a source  

[20:06] of dread for a lot of people which is getting  together with extended family for Thanksgiving  

[20:12] or Christmas or Easter and knowing that some of  the personal or political disagreements are going  

[20:18] to bubble up to the surface. The RISA framework  provides two sources of help in that situation.  

[20:26] The first is that every disagreement should  start with a little bit of agreement. And  

[20:32] that is often naming exactly what it is that you  disagree about so that it doesn't bubble up into  

[20:40] uh an unruly conflict about all the different  slights and and and disagreements and all the  

[20:47] different areas in which you don't see eye to eye.  And the first step is to name the disagreement in  

[20:53] front of you. And you need to do that before you  can even start to apply the RISA framework. The  

[20:59] second thing is it may be that two people don't  start with the same objectives in mind when they  

[21:08] enter the conversation. But one of the things  that you might be able to do is to check well why  

[21:13] do you want to engage in this disagreement? And  can we come to an agreement about what it is that  

[21:19] we're hoping to get out of this conversation. So  forcing the slightly quarrelome family member who  

[21:26] just wants to be a contrarian or to cause trouble  to say, "Are you really in this hoping to persuade  

[21:32] me to change my mind? Or are you really in this to  hear my perspective or a different take on these  

[21:38] positions that you hold?" That bit of negotiation  of why it is that we're in the conversation in the  

[21:45] first instance. And that level of alignment can  often allow our conversations to go better than  

[21:52] if we just jump into the disagreements without  much forethought. If intelligence is the ability  

[22:00] to respond to any argument, wisdom lies in knowing  which arguments to respond to and which parts of  

[22:07] an argument to respond to. And debaters usually  ask two questions. The first is is a given point  

[22:15] within the opposition's argument or case is  it necessary to challenge in order for us to  

[22:23] resolve the overall dispute? And if it's not, is  us challenging it or disagreeing with it going to  

[22:30] help us make progress on the overall dispute. So  by asking whether a point that the other side is  

[22:37] making no matter how offensive or wrong seeming it  may be by asking whether it's first necessary to  

[22:45] challenge or even if it's not whether challenging  it would help us make progress on the argument.  

[22:51] You can be a little bit more judicious uh in  how you disagree and prevent our arguments from  

[22:58] becoming this unruly all-encompassing dispute.  The importance of beginning a dispute with the  

[23:05] RISA framework is that it allows us to almost make  a contract with the other side to say this is what  

[23:12] we're disagreeing about and these are the reasons  why we're engaging in that dispute. And one of the  

[23:17] things that you can do with someone who tries  to break those rules to expand the debate into  

[23:24] something it wasn't about to change the topic to  uh introduce new reasons for wanting to engage  

[23:31] in the dispute is just to remind ourselves of the  agreement that we made of the kind of disagreement  

[23:37] that we want to have and what we want to disagree  about and to bring the conversation back to those  

[23:43] parameters. So much of debate is an exercise in  certainty. It's about spending sometimes weeks  

[23:51] researching your side of the case, coming up  with the best possible arguments that you can,  

[23:56] coming up with the best lines that you can to  sell the truth of your side to the listener.  

[24:02] But in the last moments before a debater goes on  stage, they know to take a breath, to take out  

[24:11] a new sheet of paper, and to put themselves in  their opponent's shoes and write the four best  

[24:18] arguments for the opposing side. They know also to  look over their case again, this time through the  

[24:26] eyes of someone who fervently disagrees with them  and to identify all of the flaws and the mistakes  

[24:33] and the criticisms that could be leveled against  them. Debaters also know to imagine to imagine a  

[24:40] world in which they lost the debate and to come up  with the reasons why they did. And those exercises  

[24:47] which are called the sides switch exercises puts  a pause on that feeling of certainty. It makes us  

[24:55] feel for a moment the subjective reasonleness of  other people's beliefs. It gives us that moment  

[25:02] where we get back on our toes and think maybe we  missed something. It makes us imagine a world in  

[25:09] which we're wrong or at least we're judged  to be wrong. And all of that isn't humility,  

[25:16] isn't empathy in and of itself, but it creates a  wrigle room through which something like humility  

[25:22] or empathy might arise. I find empathy hard  to practice in my day-to-day life because I  

[25:30] often feel as though I don't know what it is.  Sometimes it feels like a kind of a magical  

[25:36] psychic connection that you look into the eyes of  someone and then somewhere music starts playing  

[25:42] in the background or it feels like a virtue that  some people are born with and that other people  

[25:49] don't possess. It was through the experience of  debating that I saw a different view of empathy  

[25:55] which is empathy as a series of actions which by  putting yourselves in the shoes of an opponent  

[26:01] and coming up with some arguments for their case  or by looking at yourself through the eyes of an  

[26:08] opposition and trying to look at all the reasons  why you might be wrong. I think so many of our  

[26:15] conversations at the moment feel like they're  stuck. It's people fully convinced of their  

[26:21] views shouting at at each other from a distance  and it's a kind of a trench warfare where people  

[26:28] are fully entrenched in the position that they've  always held and creating that little wiggle room  

[26:35] for doubt for letting in the possibility that the  other side might have a couple of points in their  

[26:44] favor and that you might have missed something.  I think that's one way in which empathy comes in  

[26:49] at a time when it's in such short supply. The  sites which exercises and the kind of empathy  

[26:57] that debate brings into the conversation is not  only applicable in personal disagreements but  

[27:05] in my view more urgently needed than ever in our  political disputes in disputes between political  

[27:12] parties and factions and and your ideological  commitments. But in order for us to be able to  

[27:18] put into practice, I think we have to remember  that each of us are bigger than our political  

[27:26] affiliations, than our religious commitments, than  our ideological beliefs. And more importantly,  

[27:36] the other person is more than a representative  of their party or their position in society or  

[27:44] the beliefs that they hold. And by allowing our  encounters to be larger than the affiliations  

[27:54] that we have, that gives us the best chance,  I think, of being able to explore new ideas,  

[28:01] to listen to the particular nuances of where  the other person is coming from and not the  

[28:05] categories we would place them in. And it's  in that setting that exercises like side  

[28:12] switch become most effective. When we view the  other person and when we view ourselves in our  

[28:19] fullness and not merely by our membership or  affiliation in groups of like-minded folks.

[28:31] Chapter two, why arguments break down. One of  the hardest questions I had to grapple with in  

[28:40] writing this book is are there some subjects that  we simply should not debate? And the conclusion I  

[28:48] came to is we should draw at least one bright  line which is saying we should not debate the  

[28:56] equal moral standing of persons. And the reason  for that is the whole premise of debate. And the  

[29:04] reason why we give people equal time in which to  speak and we give them the promise of being able  

[29:10] to speak uninterrupted is because we say their  voice is worth hearing and their voice is worth  

[29:16] hearing equally as that of their opponent. And so  a debate about whether a certain race of people  

[29:22] or group of people are inferior would not be  would be antithetical to what debate stands for.  

[29:29] The recent attempts to shut down debates about  certain topics or to deplatform speakers who have  

[29:39] been spreading divisive and hurtful messages.  Seems to me both a response to the fact that  

[29:46] many of us have lost the ability to disagree  constructively and passionately and humanely. But  

[29:53] it also seems a reflection of a lack of confidence  that the resulting disagreements can be anything  

[30:00] other than a source of pain and of division. And  so one of the things that I think the skills of  

[30:06] debate does that the RISA framework does that  sides switching does is it expands the scope of  

[30:15] what we are able to talk about because it enlarges  and improves and strengthens our ability to talk  

[30:24] about contentious and difficult issues in humane,  compassionate and productive ways. So one of the  

[30:31] reasons why we need the skills of debate now is  at a time when there are all these pressures to  

[30:38] shut down debate to be able to not only talk about  more things but to do it in a way that brings in  

[30:45] people rather than excludes them. There's a lot of  literature now about how you might be able to pull  

[30:53] ahead in social media fights. There's wisdom about  not engaging in the discussion forever, not using  

[31:00] too many inflammatory words, so on and so on. But  I tend to be a little bit more pessimistic about  

[31:06] it. And I think in order for us to start building  back the skills of good argument, we usually need  

[31:14] to do it face to face. And we might need to do  it in the absence of an audience to start with so  

[31:21] that we resist the urge to perform for an audience  but rather listen and respond to the person  

[31:27] across from us. So, it may well be that a better  version of social media that doesn't amplify the  

[31:35] most inflammatory material, that doesn't have  anonymous contributors, that doesn't have the  

[31:43] kind of the culture of hate and and and and vile  disagreements that we see at present. It may be  

[31:51] that we can one day equip ourselves to engage in  a better form of social media, but I tend to think  

[31:58] the starting place has to be face to face, has  to be maybe away from an audience to begin with,  

[32:04] so that we're building one interaction  at a time the skills that we have lost.  

[32:10] The people in my life who are most quarrelome, who  are most primed to always engage in disagreements  

[32:19] tend to want, I think, two irreconcilable things.  The first is often they want to be heard and they  

[32:26] want to have their perspective carry through and  to connect with the listener. But another slightly  

[32:33] darker desire they have is to dominate over their  opponents and to show themselves superior. And the  

[32:41] two are in conflict because the point of one is to  make a connection with the other side and to have  

[32:47] your message carry through. Whereas the other is  to almost leapfrog over the listener and to show  

[32:55] yourself to be better than them. And so I think  those people are often caught. And one of the  

[33:01] reasons why the people who are most quarrelome,  who put themselves out as best at debate,  

[33:07] need to continue engaging with it, is because they  don't quite find what they're looking for. And I  

[33:12] think what they're looking for is connection.  I've had to think a lot about conflict aversion  

[33:17] because I myself am a pretty conflict averse  person. I used to be one and I still feel the  

[33:25] instinct of that despite all my years in debate.  And this is something I've changed my mind about.  

[33:33] I used to think that conflict aversion was  a lack of confidence in one's own abilities,  

[33:39] a kind of a defensiveness to shield oneself from  hurt, to protect oneself from revealing too much  

[33:47] or becoming too vulnerable to the other side. And  I think that is one element. But nowadays I think  

[33:54] conflict aversion also shows a lack of confidence  in the other person in their ability to receive  

[34:01] you with some measure of grace to respond to you  kindly and to make something constructive out of  

[34:07] the conversation you're building together. And  so I think the common trait of conflict averse  

[34:15] folks is a lack of confidence not only in one's  own abilities but I think more controllingly  

[34:22] more importantly in the other person. Where the  conflict averse person and the highly combative  

[34:30] person meet in my view is in their shared desire  for a connection. And it's a connection that they  

[34:39] don't get just by persisting in their most natural  modes. You can't connect if the only grounds on  

[34:47] which you connect with another person or you reach  out to another person is similarity rather than  

[34:53] difference. And similarly, you can't connect  if your whole desire is to dominate or to show  

[35:00] yourself to be superior than the other person.  So in managing both of those personalities as a  

[35:07] debater and as a coach but also as in my view  every human contains both of these instincts  

[35:14] within them. I think the place where they meet and  the middle ground where good arguments stem from  

[35:22] is from a recognition that it's through connection  with others. It's through an encounter with others  

[35:28] that we get more than we would be able to on our  own. Some of the most painful disagreements we  

[35:34] come across in our day-to-day lives are with loved  ones. And I think the reason for that in one word  

[35:41] is carelessness. When it comes to those whom we're  closest to, we are usually quickest to assume they  

[35:49] should agree with us. After all, they're the  people we've chosen to share our lives with.  

[35:54] We're quickest to assume they should understand  us even when we're not expressing ourselves very  

[35:59] clearly. After all, they're the people who know  us best. And the combination of all of those  

[36:05] things is we're least likely to think about the  effort that it takes to disagree well because we  

[36:14] have this idea that love should be effortless.  Um, and the great tragedy of that is if only we  

[36:21] love the other person a little bit less or if we  cared for them a little bit less, then maybe our  

[36:27] disagreements would be less painful. The more we  care about another person, the more high stakes a  

[36:34] disagreement feels. The closer we feel to another  person, the more we think they must agree with us.  

[36:41] And the more of our lives we share with another  person, the more points of potential disagreements  

[36:47] arise. So in this time of extreme polarization,  the impulse to seek out agreement can feel  

[36:57] pretty attractive. And this is the rhetoric of  remember there is no red America, no blue America,  

[37:05] right? This is the unifying rhetoric of focusing  on all of the different things that we have in  

[37:14] common rather than the things that bring us  apart. And someone might plead at this point,  

[37:19] we're all human after all and we should focus  on that. And the force of that argument, that  

[37:25] unifying rhetoric derives not only from what we  can do when we focus on the agreement between us,  

[37:35] but I think also from the shadow that lurks, which  is disagreements can be really destructive. And  

[37:42] so part of the appeal of that unifying logic  comes from conjuring up the boogeymen of what  

[37:50] disagreement can be. And at least it's not that.  At least we can have agreement that's a little  

[37:58] bit thinner, maybe a little bit blander, just  having to do with us being generally human or  

[38:03] living in the same place. But it's better than the  alternative of divisive and painful disagreements.

[38:14] Chapter 3. Power, persuasion,  and bad faith debate.  

[38:20] I think we're living at a time of real distrust of  rhetoric. And when we say something is rhetoric,  

[38:26] we mean something like it's mere rhetoric. Those  are just empty words or you're trying to fool me  

[38:33] in some way. You're trying to manipulate me. And  the origins of that suspicion of rhetoric come  

[38:40] right from the beginning of rhetoric as a kind of  an education and a tradition. So there's a debate  

[38:46] between Socrates and Gorgius who's a rhetorician  and a public speaker and Socrates accuses Gorgius  

[38:55] essentially of practicing an art rhetoric which  is divorced from the truth that prays on people's  

[39:03] desire to be flattered that prays on their kind of  ficklessness and their responsiveness to emotional  

[39:10] appeal rather than the dictates of reason. And  this view and this suspicion of rhetoric has  

[39:18] really won out these days. When people say that's  just rhetoric, it's a kind of an accusation. It's  

[39:24] a put down. It's a way to reveal a kind of a  trick. And in the book, I take the opposite view  

[39:31] that it's precisely because of our frailties, our  capacity to be lazy, our capacity to be apathetic  

[39:41] that we need things that tug at our heartstrings  and forces us to take some action. that because it  

[39:48] takes an enormous amount of activation energy to  change our minds at all, let alone to act on those  

[39:55] changed beliefs, we need something greater than  ourselves to pull us along. Now, that comes with  

[40:02] a recognition that we're playing with murial  elements, right? With emotion, with passion,  

[40:10] with fellow feeling, with identifying with the  speaker. But as with so many things in debate, a  

[40:18] conversation that doesn't have these elements that  make us human is also a conversation diminished.  

[40:26] It's a conversation that is not lifelike and that  lacks some of the vastness, some of the richness  

[40:36] that a real human conversation can provide. And  to do that, I think you need rhetoric. Whenever we  

[40:44] teach a population a great and powerful new skill  that can be used for good or for evil, we need to  

[40:55] give them the tools to manage that new power. And  that's true of whether it's nuclear physics or  

[41:02] whether it's a martial art or whether it's working  in weapons development. You need to give people  

[41:08] both the ability to harness the power for good and  to prevent it from being used for bad. And I think  

[41:15] this is true for debate too. That in a world where  many people possess the tools of rhetoric, some of  

[41:25] them will use it for evil, will use it to promote  bad ends. and a population that understands both  

[41:34] faces of rhetoric, the ways in which it can  be used for good, but the ways in which it  

[41:39] can be hijacked and abused. I think that's a  population that has more immunity to demagoguery,  

[41:46] to the abuses of rhetoric because they're able to  identify what is happening to be able to call it  

[41:53] out in some instances and resist the temptation  to simply go along with it uncritically. There  

[42:00] are three principles from debate on using rhetoric  more effectively in our disagreements. The first  

[42:07] is proportionality. The second is personality.  And the third is panache. It's the three Ps. The  

[42:14] first is many of the abuses of rhetoric come  when the kinds of claims that we're making or  

[42:21] the words we're using or the gestures we're making  are out of sync with the content of the arguments.  

[42:27] They exaggerate or they diminish or they're out  of proportion. So the first is not to overstate  

[42:34] things but not to understate things either both  in terms of the language that we use and in the  

[42:39] gestures that we use. So there has to be a kind of  a proportionality between the rhetoric we marshall  

[42:45] in favor of our arguments and the arguments  themselves. The second is personality which  

[42:51] is bringing ourselves into our arguments a little  bit more. Remember what we're trying to do is to  

[42:58] make the audience undergo a kind of a change to  end up somewhere believing something they didn't  

[43:05] before. And in order to do that, they have to  make a kind of a journey from where they were  

[43:10] to where they're going. And one way in which we  might be able to help them undergo that journey  

[43:15] is by explaining how we went through that process  ourselves. So people may not always know very much  

[43:22] about a particular issue or the truth of any given  claim but people are pretty good at judging other  

[43:28] people and by showing your own journey and how  you got to the position and the perspective that  

[43:33] you're offering that can often be very useful.  The last bit is panache which is there is a part  

[43:40] of rhetoric which is crafting the language putting  the right combination of words in sequence using  

[43:47] all the tools of voice and gesture to be able to  most effectively sell that argument. Those moments  

[43:54] of panache or what we call in debates sometimes  applause lines are important because they signal  

[44:01] to the listener that they are worthy of a certain  kind of attention and work that we with them  

[44:07] in mind put in all this time to try and make  this sound as convincing as we possibly could.  

[44:15] So Arthur Schoppenhower was a German philosopher  born in the late 1700s and in addition to all  

[44:23] of the broad-ranging contributions that he  made to philosophy from aesthetics to ethics,  

[44:29] he personally took a pretty dim view of humanity  and of our situation. He said as a teenager  

[44:36] having experienced a lot of loss in his family  that the world must be the work of a devil who  

[44:43] created the world so that they could relish in  the suffering that people went through. And in  

[44:48] his work as a philosopher he was known as a very  confrontational quarrelome character who picked  

[44:55] fights with everyone and and try to get one up  them in a debate and and in a in a disagreement.  

[45:01] And later in his life, he wrote this uh parody  document uh called the aristic dialectic where he  

[45:09] offers 30 odd tactics for beating the other side  at all costs. And they're tactics like interrupt  

[45:19] and call the other person names or change the  subject or offer a nonsequittor to confuse  

[45:26] the other side. And the question for me and the  question with any parody is does he believe that  

[45:35] this is all there is? That this is all people are  really capable of or is it a kind of a political  

[45:42] document inspired to help us do better to see our  situation for what it is the comic slightly tragic  

[45:52] mess that our disagreements can be and to aspire  to do something better. So the rules of debate,  

[45:59] simple as they are, matter because it's what  makes a conversation a debate rather than  

[46:05] simply conflict or an exchange of insults. When  we explode the rules of debate, we change what  

[46:14] is valued and rewarded in a conversation. So, in a  free-for-all of the kind that Schopenhau prepares  

[46:22] us for, the things that are rewarded are leaving  the other side speechless or putting forward a  

[46:30] dominant performance that gets the other side to  trip up or gets the audience to jeer and boo the  

[46:38] opposition so that we're not able to hear them at  all. So the rules of debate are important because  

[46:45] in order for us to reward, reasoning, thinking,  responding, listening, all of the things that we  

[46:55] value and should value in conversation, we need  to first set up a structure that rewards that.  

[47:01] The one glimmer that we see in this parody  document by Schopenhau is this notion that  

[47:07] by understanding the tactics that bullies use,  by being able to counter them, by being able  

[47:13] to defend ourselves against them and in some ways  turn some of those tactics against them, we may be  

[47:20] able to deter them from using those tactics in the  first instance. So even in this quite dark view of  

[47:27] what disagreements can do, there's a sense that  by learning a kind of a defense against the dark  

[47:32] arts, we may be able to nudge our conversations in  a better direction. One of the reasons why debate  

[47:40] is vulnerable to the manipulations of bad faith  actors is that it rewards both persuasiveness but  

[47:48] also the perception of persuasiveness. So as an  adjudicator or even as a member of the audience,  

[47:54] you often don't know that much about the  particular issues that are being debated. You may  

[47:59] not even know about the people who are presenting  the argument. Instead, what you have is all of the  

[48:06] body language, all of the ticks in their speech,  all of the signals that you get of who's ahead  

[48:13] and who's behind. And bullies tend to exploit  that by appearing as the more dominant side,  

[48:21] the more unshakable side that even when they're  behind in an argument, by never looking flustered  

[48:29] or never looking as though they're falling  behind. And so the bullies tend, in my experience,  

[48:34] to be especially attuned to the element of debate  that is spectacle in addition to reason. I think  

[48:41] the reason why we're susceptible to those kinds  of manipulations is because we're imperfect. We  

[48:49] like to be flattered. We like to be told things  we already believe. We like to feel like we're  

[48:56] on the winning side. We like to feel like we  have the protection of someone who's stronger.  

[49:02] And some of these kinds of baser instincts, some  of these kinds of insecurities that we all possess  

[49:10] are exactly what bad faith arguers try to target  and exploit. I was watching the first presidential  

[49:18] election debates with my debate partner and  we'd been we'd received an assignment from  

[49:24] uh the Atlantic media to write a kind of a review  of the two candidates performance in the debates  

[49:32] and maybe to come to a judgment of which of the  two sides have won. And we were busy taking notes  

[49:41] throughout writing all of the different tactical  slip ups and and and moves that the two sides were  

[49:48] using. But ultimately we ended up never filing  that article because we didn't feel like it  

[49:55] had been a debate at all. And so whoever came  out ahead in the audience polls about who they  

[50:05] believed had won, in as much as it was a win, it  wasn't a debate victory. Because what had unfolded  

[50:12] wasn't a debate, it was a kind of a brawl. What  was then my greatest triumph in the world of  

[50:18] debate, which was winning the World University's  debate championships. And what started as the  

[50:25] absolute highlight of my years and the height of  my confidence in what debate could do for a person  

[50:31] and could do for a society, I saw that sink to  a kind of a bottom when you saw the two people  

[50:38] competing for perhaps the most consequential  office in the entire world um engage in a kind of  

[50:46] an unedifying spectacle that was a debate in name  only. And I saw the potential for the format of  

[50:54] debate to which I'd given much of my still short  life to. I saw the potential for that format to  

[51:02] be exploited, to be hijacked, and to be degraded.  The thing that struck me most about those debates  

[51:13] is how quickly a stage set up with rules, with  moderators, with the values of a community  

[51:21] that had decided to make debates a part of the  democratic process. How quickly that could be  

[51:28] turned into a kind of a brawl where there were no  rules, where the only thing that mattered was the  

[51:35] display and the spectacle of dominance over the  other side, where embarrassment was the currency,  

[51:41] or where bigging oneself up always came at the  expense of putting the other side down. And  

[51:48] for me, the takeaway from that was those darker  impulses that feed into bad disagreements are not  

[51:58] only within the activity of debate, but they're  within all of us. That just the way that we have  

[52:04] the capacity to disagree well, we also have the  capacity to disagree badly. And both those sides  

[52:11] and both those impulses have to be managed so  that we can nudge our arguments in the direction  

[52:17] of the good. Having seen how the debate format  can be broken down, can be hijacked by bad faith  

[52:25] debaters, I resolved to diagnose and list the  common tactics that are used by bad faith arguers  

[52:35] so that we might have a hope of recognizing it  when we see it in practice and responding. And  

[52:41] I came to four common kinds of bad arguers that  we see in our day-to-day lives, not only in our  

[52:48] political lives, but also around the kitchen table  in our workplaces. And the four common personas  

[52:56] I came up with were first the dodger, second the  twister, third the wrangler, and fourth the liar.  

[53:06] So the dodger wins by essentially changing the  topic and they usually do this by finding a pivot  

[53:14] point. So you might say something like we need  to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels because  

[53:20] climate change is getting out of hand. Then  they might say on the topic of climate change,  

[53:26] why do you drive a four-wheel drive? Right? Or  why do you have a a a gas guzzler in your garage?  

[53:34] And it is a kind of a response on the same topic  but not to the point that you had raised. And so  

[53:43] the way in which the dodger gets ahead is when you  take the bait and you start talking about your car  

[53:50] and and and making defenses for yourself. And so  the response to the Dodger is to stay the course  

[53:59] and to keep bringing the discussion back to the  original point and highlighting that they are  

[54:06] trying to change what the disagreement is about.  The second kind of persona is the twister. And  

[54:13] the twister's signature move is to misrepresent  the point that you're making. So if you say I'm  

[54:19] opposed to increasing taxes, the twister might  say, does that mean you have no concern for social  

[54:28] security? Or are you so selfish that you think  there should be no limits on personal property?  

[54:35] And so this is a kind of a straw man argument  because it's not the argument you're raising,  

[54:41] it's the one they're thrusting on you, right? And  so to respond to the twister, it's imperative to  

[54:49] correct the record and say, "No, that's not what  I'm saying." Because once you get this kind of  

[54:55] misrepresentation, you can often get into a  position of arguing for something you don't  

[55:01] believe or at least the conversation splitting and  you not being able to connect and talk about the  

[55:07] same issue. It can often be difficult to respond  to a personality like the twister because you get  

[55:14] a sense that something is going wrong here  or clearly they're pulling something on you  

[55:18] but you're not sure what it is. And so one of the  reasons why we need to be able to recognize things  

[55:24] like straw man and just have the vocabulary to  be able to say that's what they're doing is so  

[55:30] that we're able to pause and diagnose what has  gone wrong in the disagreement. The third kind  

[55:36] of bad arguer is called the wrangler. And this is  the person for whom nothing is ever good enough.  

[55:43] They're very good at coming up with critiques  against just about everything that you're saying,  

[55:49] but they never offer an alternative of their own.  And this is a problem because your solution or the  

[55:56] thing you're arguing for probably isn't perfect.  But so long as it's better than the alternative,  

[56:02] which might be just doing whatever we're doing  now, it still probably is the preferable solution.  

[56:09] And so the appropriate response to the wrangler is  to say, well, what do you believe? In other words,  

[56:17] to pin them to a position so that they too  have to argue in favor of something rather  

[56:23] than always saying no. The fourth personality  and someone we see just about everywhere in our  

[56:30] public and private discussions these days is  the liar. And one of the things we know about  

[56:35] the liar is they usually don't tell one lie,  they tell many. so that it becomes overwhelming  

[56:42] and their opponent either doesn't know how to  respond to this effluence of stuff coming out  

[56:50] from the other side or they waste all their time  trying to respond. So the strategy against a liar  

[56:58] is to choose one or two representative lies that  you think best exemplifies the approach that the  

[57:06] liar is taking in a disagreement. Then debaters do  something called plug and replace. The first is to  

[57:13] imagine as though the opposition's claim is true  and then to explain all the problems that arise  

[57:19] when you make that assumption. So let's imagine if  what you're saying is that immigrants cause lots  

[57:25] of trouble when they come into a country. Then  how do you explain the fact that crime rates among  

[57:31] that community is actually lower than the rest of  the population? Then you replace the lie with a  

[57:38] truth and say it's in fact not true that they are  kind of bad actors who cause all these problems  

[57:45] and that explains what we know to be true about  the world. And so by plugging in the lie and then  

[57:51] replacing it with the truth, you can demonstrate  the ways in which the lie falls short and try  

[57:57] and explain how that's symptomatic of a broader  approach that the liar is taking to the debate.  

[58:05] It's entirely impractical to try to respond to  every single lie. And so it becomes important  

[58:11] to choose one or two of the lies that are most  representative. And that shows something about how  

[58:20] the other side is approaching the disagreement.  And by even naming that this is what they're  

[58:25] doing. They're trying to overwhelm us with the  volume of lies. You start to take away some of the  

[58:32] illusion or some of the trick by revealing how it  works. So now let's imagine you're up against one  

[58:41] of these players who's dominant and blustering  and super confident in their abilities. How do  

[58:46] you respond? I think the first thing is to stay  the course. And so often people tend to shrink  

[58:55] themselves or to change their own behavior in  response to the bullies. They often try to imitate  

[59:02] them and play their game, which they usually can't  because most of us are not built to be bullies  

[59:10] and these kinds of blustering showmen. or they  try to speed up, for example, and shrink their  

[59:18] contributions into the spaces that the bullies  allot us when they're not interrupting us. So,  

[59:24] the key is to remain calm and not to change our  behavior in response to how they're trying to get  

[59:31] us to change. The second is to actually pause and  say, is it a debate that we're trying to have or  

[59:40] is it something else? Because one of the ways  in which bullies get ahead is by changing the  

[59:45] nature of the conversation that we're having.  And as soon as you start playing the same game,  

[59:51] trash talking and calling them names and so  on, that becomes the exercise that you're  

[59:56] now engaged in. So it's a the second move is to  stop and remind people that it's a debate that  

[1:00:03] we're trying to have and not something else. And  the last thing is if you're unable to do that,  

[1:00:09] you should also be able to defer the conversation  and say we're not getting anywhere at the moment  

[1:00:16] and we're going to stop until we are able to get  to a point of agreement again about the kind of  

[1:00:22] conversation that we want to have. And so even  at a time when we might feel hopeless faced with  

[1:00:30] a bully or a bad faith debater, we need to have  tools so that we're able to respond, but we also  

[1:00:38] have these three strategies available to us to  reset the kind of conversation we want to have.  

[1:00:46] The fifth persona of bad faith disagreement  differs from the other four because he or she  

[1:00:54] is not interested in trying to pull a sneaky  maneuver within the logic of debate. Rather,  

[1:01:02] it's their aim to change the conversation from a  debate into something else into a kind of a brawl  

[1:01:09] or an allout disagreement where anything goes. And  so brawlers get ahead by changing the rules of the  

[1:01:16] game so fundamentally that all of those things  that we value and debate now go out the window  

[1:01:22] and you're essentially in a kind of a fist fight  uh fought over words. The first thing to remember  

[1:01:29] is though many of us contain the impulses to  brawl to turn a debate into something other than a  

[1:01:38] debate very few people I think are actually beyond  the pale and so pausing a conversation reminding  

[1:01:46] them it's a debate that we're trying to have and  not a different kind of conversation I think can  

[1:01:51] often be effective at checking and reminding the  other side I know what you're trying to do and  

[1:01:58] I'm trying to resist it. I'm trying to bring this  conversation back on course. So in most instances  

[1:02:05] against most people even when they are inhabiting  this bullying persona, I think the right thing is  

[1:02:11] to try and bring the conversation back into the  mold of a debate. But there are instances where  

[1:02:18] on that day or just because of the kind of person  they are, they're not amendable to engaging in the  

[1:02:24] kind of conversation you want to. And when  you have someone like that, it may well be  

[1:02:28] that persuasion can no longer be the aim of the  exchange. It can be something like checking their  

[1:02:36] lies or offering a different perspective. But so  when you're faced with someone who is a brawler  

[1:02:42] to their core, a bully to their core, then you  have to shift in your orientation away probably  

[1:02:48] from simply persuading them, but to maybe checking  their lies or to offering a different perspective.  

[1:02:56] One thing that knowledge and mastery of this kind  of defense against the dark arts allows us to do  

[1:03:03] is to challenge the bullies in our lives. And some  of that is a necessity because they're there and  

[1:03:11] they often bring the fight to us. But it's also  an important thing to engage bad faith actors as  

[1:03:18] early as we can and in many many instances as  often as we can because the power of bullies  

[1:03:25] increases without challenge and the ability of  their lies to set in and to spread. All of that is  

[1:03:37] increased where there is no competing perspective.  So one of the things that this toolkit allows us  

[1:03:44] to do is it allows us to challenge views that  would otherwise go undetected or underappreciated  

[1:03:52] or unchallenged. So one place where we saw these  three moves of staying the course of pausing and  

[1:04:01] reminding people it's a debate and of deferring  the round until the circumstances are more  

[1:04:08] hospitable to having a debate uh took place during  the height of the cold war where the then US vice  

[1:04:15] President Richard Nixon debated the Soviet premier  Nikita Krushov at a model US home in Moscow. Now,  

[1:04:24] and here you had on one side a relatively spelt  kind of a very savvy political operator in Nixon  

[1:04:31] and on the other side a much larger kind of  imposing physical presence who embodied in some  

[1:04:39] way the Soviet alternative to the US vision of  liberal democracy. And in the debate that ensued,  

[1:04:47] Nixon had been a kind of a champion high  school debater who had been taught that it's a  

[1:04:54] conversation that we're trying to have in debate,  that you shouldn't shout at your opponents, that  

[1:04:59] you shouldn't talk over them. He came across in  Kruch, a person who was used to hearing the sound  

[1:05:05] of his own voice, right? Uh and not being spoken  over uh and dominating every conversation he took  

[1:05:13] part in. And in response, Nixon seemed to pull  out some of the strategies that he had learned  

[1:05:20] as a debater. He refused to change his argument  strategy in response to Krishv's attempt to  

[1:05:28] interrupt. He stayed the course. He slowed down.  He paused while the other person was speaking, but  

[1:05:35] picked up right where he had left off. He called  out all the constant interruptions. He said,  

[1:05:41] "In the US, we would call you a filibuster because  you do all the talking." And that kind of moment  

[1:05:47] of levity reset and took some of the heat out uh  of what would otherwise have been people talking  

[1:05:54] over one another. And when none of that was  working, Nixon said, "Let's do this again another  

[1:06:00] time." Right? And and forced an agreement from  Krushchev that they would pick up the discussion  

[1:06:06] at a future point. And we know Nixon actually as  someone who had his hopes in electoral politics  

[1:06:14] harmed in part by the televised debates with JFK  and the big story there was that he was the loser.  

[1:06:22] uh but in this earlier confrontation where he  stood for as the voice of an entire country  

[1:06:30] really against its main adversary it seemed  that the skills of debate stood him in much  

[1:06:35] better position there so as a debater you  don't win every round you don't lose every  

[1:06:40] round but the skills can come in quite useful so  Thomas Hogs the English philosopher took a pretty  

[1:06:48] pessimistic view not only of disagreements But  the kinds of people we become when we engage in  

[1:06:55] disagreements which is we become petty, we become  defensive, we focus on people's personality. And  

[1:07:04] he believed that these petty disputes can grow  into a kind of a conflration that brings down  

[1:07:13] not only relationships but also nations. And  this was a man who lived through periods of war.  

[1:07:19] And so he saw the destructive force that arguments  can be. And looking at all that damage, which I  

[1:07:27] think is not dissimilar to where we are and the  kind of things that we see in the destructive  

[1:07:34] capacity of disagreements, he concluded that the  appropriate response was to take on a posture  

[1:07:42] of civil silence towards one another. that  we wouldn't engage in these disagreements,  

[1:07:49] that we would as much as possible try to grin  and bear to tolerate one another's differences  

[1:07:56] and not to disagree about them overtly, lest the  disagreements grow into a state of conflict that  

[1:08:04] none of us can control. I mean, Hobbes is a pretty  smart guy and uh and so it's hard to dismiss some  

[1:08:10] of these ideas too flippantly. And the honest  truth is I felt the force um of that wisdom in my  

[1:08:17] day-to-day life. You know, when I was feeling like  I didn't have a voice or when I was feeling like I  

[1:08:26] was on the margins and my being my welcomeness in  a place was kind of conditional on me not causing  

[1:08:33] too much trouble or rocking the boat. When I've  been through periods in my life where I've felt  

[1:08:39] that kind of defensiveness or vulnerability,  I often did have the thought it would go a lot  

[1:08:46] easier if we could focus on our similarities and  to minimize as much as possible the differences.  

[1:08:55] And the problem with that is our commonalities are  only one part of the fullness of our relationship  

[1:09:04] with one another. And part of what makes the  encounter between two people meaningful is not  

[1:09:11] only all the things that they share, but the  differences. And that variety is a source of  

[1:09:16] challenge. It's the way in which we piece together  truth from different perspectives. It's the way in  

[1:09:22] which we go beyond ourselves, learn something new,  reach for something new. And so a life built just  

[1:09:32] around agreement is an impoverished life because  it requires taking away and ignoring so much  

[1:09:41] of the richness of human relationships and the  encounters they give rise to. I see debate as one  

[1:09:51] answer to a broader question which is how do we  disagree better? And though debate is an important  

[1:09:58] answer to the question, it's not the only way  in which we can disagree. And in the same way,  

[1:10:03] I see the question of how we disagree better as  one answer to the question, what do we do about  

[1:10:10] the fact that each of us are different, but that  we must find ways of getting along. Disagreeing  

[1:10:16] about our differences is not the only way in  which we coexist and learn to navigate around  

[1:10:22] our differences. We can also negotiate. We can  collaborate. We can tolerate. We can let some  

[1:10:28] things pass. But we can also disagree. In the same  way, we can disagree by debating, but we can also  

[1:10:36] do it through organizing our side against your  side. We can do it by lobbying one another. We  

[1:10:42] can do it by negotiating. And so debate is one  set of tools that we can bring to disagreement  

[1:10:49] just the way disagreement is one approach we can  bring to the broader project of living together.

[1:11:02] Four times a year we print a magazine worth  putting your phone down for. Big thinks premium  

[1:11:07] print magazine is built with custom artwork and  expert insight from the world's biggest thinkers.  

[1:11:12] No AI slap, no rage bait, just big  ideas for curious people. Support  

[1:11:17] the media you want to see in the world.  Go to bigthink.com/membership to join.

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